Shall we talk about Skyrim?

[Wizardry]

Well it's an RPG innit, if you start making it so that archery relies on skill rather than stats then the RPG fans will be all in in bethesda's shit like "WTF Bethesda turned TES into an action game", rather than the "WTF this game doesn't have locational damage".

Lose lose really.
Sorry but your attempt to take the piss out of me has failed. What does locational damage have to do with "skill rather than stats"? Do I have to link you to (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?764-In-defence-of-health-packs&p=17761&viewfull=1#post17761) a rather hardcore turn-based cRPGs of the 80s that featured location damage? You've just embarrassed yourself.

[Smashbox]

Please, can we not?

[Nalano]

Please, can we not?

10characters

[Jockie]

Sorry but your attempt to take the piss out of me has failed. What does locational damage have to do with "skill rather than stats"? Do I have to link you to (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?764-In-defence-of-health-packs&p=17761&viewfull=1#post17761) a rather hardcore turn-based cRPGs of the 80s that featured location damage? You've just embarrassed yourself.

Eh, I wasn't taking the piss out of you Captain Hypersensitive (I am now).

[gundrea]

So I saw a dragon the other day...

[Smashbox]

I almost want to jump in here and steal aggro, but I'm afraid I haven't put enough points into armor.

I really like the Dwarven armor's look. I think it's nicer than the higher tier armors. Why do the most powerful ones look so completely ostentatious? I just want to be a knight.

[Drake Sigar]

Is anyone else really pissed at the Bard's college? I thought I was going to play a lute and get fresh with the soldiers sexually unsatisfied wives. Instead the teachers send me to a dangerous dungeon for a valuable object. Just like, EVERY SINGLE QUEST EVER.

[Alez]

Is anyone else really pissed at the Bard's college? I thought I was going to play a lute and get fresh with the soldiers sexually unsatisfied wives. Instead the teachers send me to a dangerous dungeon for a valuable object. Just like, EVERY SINGLE QUEST EVER.
That's completely false! Half the quests send you to a CAVERN, not only dungeons.

But seriously, i was really pissed too at that. I was having enough of the damn "fetch the thing at the end of the cave/dungeon" quests and figured "hey, i should do some bard college thing. That might change things up a bit".
Well surprise surprise, the first quest sends me to a cave.
The first mage college quests sends you to a dungeon.
The first Companions.......

For a game with one of the prettiest maps ever made, it sure doesn't want you to see it. Always sending you under it.

[Smashbox]

I agree, but in fairness, some of the dungverns are really great looking.

[Berzee]

Re: Bard's College. Is it ever possible to play instruments in this game? If not, VERY SAD.

[Smashbox]

- When I first came to that first town that wasn't being attacked by a dragon, I saw a dead NPC on the ground right in the center. A guard walked by, remarked, "how could anyone do this?" and kept walking. I looked up that NPC on the Elder Scrolls Wiki (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/TES_V:_Skyrim) and he was supposed to be part of a quest line as well as being a trainer and possible companion. Apparently killed by local fauna. Oh well. Related: I've noticed a lot of named NPCs wandering off and getting killed by angry mudcrabs.


Those God Damned hired thugs killed Faendal before I could recruit him. I am so angry that I may track down and kill the man who hired them. Though he himself is a quest-giver.

[Kodeen]

So Alec's latest post made me a bit concerned (haven't even bought the game yet), and I don't have a Wordpress account so I'll ask here.

Are dragons in Skyrim like Oblivion gates in Oblivion? Will they just interrupt whatever I'm doing and demand my immediate attention, a chore? I'm worried that I will either have to save the main quest for the very end or do it all at the beginning just so I don't have dragons getting in the way of my jumping on the heads of villagers.

Another question, and this may be spoilery. If so then please just refuse to answer. Do the dragons go away at the completion of the main quest line?

Edit: While I'm at it I may as well ask about their frequency? How many hours between each dragon encounter? Are they fixed to location or anywhere?

That's a lot of questions. Sorry.

[Alez]

Those oblivion gates were just terrible. Took too long, looked the same, everything ugly and time consuming.

The dragons are awesome as hell. You just walk around and they might stop by. If you don't want to fight them you could run away but...there is NO REASON for that. The fights are fun and...sadly a bit too easy to ever take too much time. I think they add a nice variety the game. I can't imagine every choosing to play without them.

[Smashbox]

They appear at seemingly random intervals and in seemingly random places (though not in towns, in my experience).

Sometimes they appear inconveniently, but that really adds to the game, especially with combat-weak characters or at higher difficulties. I had a very harrowing ride through the pouring rain on my horse, god rest his soul, back to the nearest garrisoned outpost I could find, so NPC arrows could help whittle down his health.

[lasikbear]

You can also ignore them and they will just leave you alone. Right now they refuse to pay attention to me no matter what I do.

[Vendetta11]

So... uhhhhh.... who got "hitched" in Skyrim?

[KauhuK]

They appear at seemingly random intervals and in seemingly random places (though not in towns, in my experience).

The dragons do come in to towns. I was in solitude when one came crashing down and started spitting fire on the people.

[Alez]

They appear at seemingly random intervals and in seemingly random places (though not in towns, in my experience).

They do attack towns but much rarer. I killed a dragon attacking Solitude and something really funny happened:
After killing the dragon, i pressed the talk button on a guard that was standing right next to the dead dragon, just to see if he says something about what just happened.
He says something like : My cousin is out fighting dragons and i'm here stuck on guard duty.

Yeah, with a dead dragon right next to him.


You can also ignore them and they will just leave you alone. Right now they refuse to pay attention to me no matter what I do.
Yeah sometimes they're weird. They could fly circles around you and ignore you while other times they will chase you to the ends of the earth.

Edit: I forgot to mention that fighting in towns with dragons is a pain in the ass with AOE spells like fireball. I kept getting bounty on me because guards were too close to the dragon. Be careful with the sensitive guards.

[Jockie]

So... uhhhhh.... who got "hitched" in Skyrim?

I married the mercenary I recruited after Lydia died, called Vorstag.

The ceremony is kind of cool, all the people who consider you their 'friends' turn up for the wedding. The turn-out for mine was especially poor, consisting of a drunkard I gave an ale to, a one-eyed cannibal lady and the bard from Riverrun called Sven.

He also opened up a little shop and gives me a few hundred gold when I ask him for my profits.

[Smashbox]

After killing the dragon, i pressed the talk button on a guard that was standing right next to the dead dragon, just to see if he says something about what just happened.
He says something like : My cousin is out fighting dragons and i'm here stuck on guard duty.

Yeah, with a dead dragon right next to him.


Kinda like the lady who told me I was dead meat as I chopped her head off.


The turn-out for mine was especially poor, consisting of a drunkard I gave an ale to, a one-eyed cannibal lady and the bard from Riverrun called Sven.


Nice.

[soldant]

The turn-out for mine was especially poor, consisting of a drunkard I gave an ale to, a one-eyed cannibal lady and the bard from Riverrun called Sven.
Better than mine: the dark elf from Azura's Shrine, and Lydia, who promptly suffered an AI bug and stood in the way, like some sort of silent objection.

[Nalano]

http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/626

[archonsod]

They do attack towns but much rarer. I killed a dragon attacking Solitude and something really funny happened:
After killing the dragon, i pressed the talk button on a guard that was standing right next to the dead dragon, just to see if he says something about what just happened.
He says something like : My cousin is out fighting dragons and i'm here stuck on guard duty.

Yeah, with a dead dragon right next to him.

Yeah, I killed one at Falkreath when it had just picked up a guard and started shaking him. Once it's dead, the other guard walks up to the dragon's head, looks at the corpse of his comrade in it's mouth and says "Who could do such a thing?"

Mind you I'm getting the same in Riften since there's now about six thief corpses lying around. All killed by the guards, and every time the guards walk past they comment on the murder. Nice to see the Radiant AI still has no memory.

[Hensler]

So the "magical anomalies" are really annoying to kill as a sneaky archer - is there an easy trick/weakness I can use on them? Spent a long time doing it, forgot to save, and then got killed by a Blood Dragon. Really don't want to sit back and pick off 10 anomalies a few dozen arrows apiece again.

[Shane]

Been trying some modes lately and the thing is that some of them, the FXAA one, Sharpen Effect and the Performance enhancing one, have their own dxd9.dll files. Which one of these should be used?

[Alez]

Here is another WTF moment:

I was in werewolf form, trying to get away from some archers as i couldn't heal myself. While cowering behind a keep, a fugitive comes up to me and gives me a weapon then says he is being chased by someone. I couldn't get to talk to him because the archers killed him as time doesn't pause anymore in conversations.

I too would find a werewolf being chased by people as a safe person to confide in.

Then the weirdness continued as before i could get moving, i got confronted by a hunter chasing that fugitive. The hunter was standing right on the dead body of the fugitive and asked me if i saw him. I said i did and after i gave him his item back he vowed to find that thief. Shouldn't be hard to do since he would just need to tie his shoelaces to spot him.

Bethesda - breaking immersion like no others.

[Okami]

Favorite WTF moment: I set out with the guards of Whiterun to fight against my first dragon. We manage to defeat him in an epic battle, which mostly involved me hiding behind some piece of geometry the dragon couldn't reach with his attacks and peppering him with arrows. Dragon gets killed, I absorb his soul and a few seconds later walk by one of the guards, triggering the following incidental dialogue: "Let me guess, someone stole your sweetroll!"

No, I just killed a fucking dragon and you saw me do it.

[Drake Sigar]

Bethesda - breaking immersion like no others.
Members of the thieves guild recommended I brush up on my lockpicking skills in the training room, yet whenever I open the practise chests, I get a comment like "you shouldn't be here" or "if you weren't' a member of the guild I'd take a swing at you."

What did I do?!

[Vexing Vision]

Running around in the Mage's Guild, I suddenly get attacked by a thug who suprises and kills me while I was talking with one of the mages.

The mage looks down at my corpse, sighs and shakes his head. "Who could have done such a thing?", he muttered.

[Drake Sigar]

One thing I really enjoy about the release of a big game is seeing all the articles and comics afterwards.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-personality-flaws-skyrim-forces-you-to-deal-with/

http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/11/14

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqiSknjHK8

Also, I'm thinking of rerolling. Again. Please stop me.

[Shane]

Also, I'm thinking of rerolling. Again. Please stop me.

Already done that four times myself and currently thinking of rerolling once more.

[Theblazeuk]

I forgot to mention that fighting in towns with dragons is a pain in the ass with AOE spells like fireball. I kept getting bounty on me because guards were too close to the dragon. Be careful with the sensitive guards.

Why use AoE on a single target though? Still a fairly low magic user (stealth, arrows and swords come first) but I assumed something like firebolt would do more individual damage. Though perhaps a higher level equivalent, I just haven't really been looking for more spells due to my low levels of magicka.

[Alez]

Sometimes your AoE ones deal the most damage, then you upgrade and direct spells are and so on. When i kept getting bounty i was at my awesome fireball with the 15 ft radius.

Now fireball is garbage because everything in the game magically became tougher as i leveled up. Not very easy to hit enemies that move around using a gamepad but i have no choice. I hope the master level spells are AoE too. I already made my companion immune to fire so i can spam all i want.

[Berzee]

Ok, another story. Has anyone seen similar?

I decided the preacher in Whiterun was too annoying to live; I decided he was worth 1040 gold pieces in bounty; I decided he was worth...MURDER.

So I blasted him with a couple lightning bolts, dropped my hands, paid my fine, and walked back to enjoy the beautiful, QUIET, lovely courtyard area...decorated nicely by his yellow-enrobed corpse lying next to the fountain.

When I returned a few days later, I noticed the commander of the guard crouched over the body; he stood up when I got close and said some standard guard line. Then, oh, THEN:

A drunken beggar walked over to the body, looked at it, and said, "They shouldn't leave things lying around out here for people to trip over."

Dear beggar,
WHAT.
Love,
Berzee

[Smashbox]

I too would find a werewolf being chased by people as a safe person to confide in.

What a great image.

How are you people starting the game over already? I've played what I consider to be an ungodly amount, but I barely feel I've scratched the surface.

[Dubbill]

Another way to rid yourself of that turbulent priest:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE4uzGaQDQg

[Berzee]

Another way to rid yourself of that turbulent priest:

Lol, that was awesome! Now I feel bad for using such uncreative violence. That guy should have the best and most ingenious of deaths. (Hmmmmm, maybe something to do with Fury).

[Vexing Vision]

I have made a strange observation - when Dragon Age: Origins came out, it actually got a lot of flak for the Silent Protagonist treatment. The player just clicked on some elaborate lines of texts, and the addressed NPC replied, fully voiced.

(I didn't mind that one bit - I rather play with the voices in my head. Yes, I know how that sounds.)

Now Skyrim is doing exactly the same thing, unless some of my audiofiles are broken - and I haven't seen that complaint ANYWHERE. I am easily confused, but I figure it just goes to show how very, very subjective reviews are.

(I don't mind the silent protagonist in Skyrim either, because, ya know, voices in the head. La la la la la...)

[Zetetic]

More interestingly it shows that:
1. There's been a general shift in players' responses to silence or otherwise in the protagonist.
2. Skyrim is a different game to DA:O, and the silence of the protagonist is more or less irritating depending on context.

I'd settle with the latter. DA:O made the player feel a bit odd with seeing you standing around mute all the time during conversations.

[Jockie]

More interestingly it shows that:
1. There's been a general shift in players' responses to silence or otherwise in the protagonist.
2. Skyrim is a different game to DA:O, and the silence of the protagonist is more or less irritating depending on context.

I'd settle with the latter. DA:O made the player feel a bit odd with seeing you standing around mute all the time during conversations.

Maybe it's a response to seeing the leaden alternative in DA2 that we're happy to go back to the silence.

[vinraith]

I have made a strange observation - when Dragon Age: Origins came out, it actually got a lot of flak for the Silent Protagonist treatment. The player just clicked on some elaborate lines of texts, and the addressed NPC replied, fully voiced.

(I didn't mind that one bit - I rather play with the voices in my head. Yes, I know how that sounds.)

Now Skyrim is doing exactly the same thing, unless some of my audiofiles are broken - and I haven't seen that complaint ANYWHERE. I am easily confused, but I figure it just goes to show how very, very subjective reviews are.

(I don't mind the silent protagonist in Skyrim either, because, ya know, voices in the head. La la la la la...)

DA:O keeps showing you cut scenes of your character, engaged in conversations, not speaking. I think, more than anything, that's what bothered people (not me, mind, I think voice acting in general is the curse of the modern RPG).

With Skyrim you're playing in first person, hearing yourself speak in a disembodied voice would probably be weird for most folks.

[thegooseking]

With Skyrim you're playing in first person, hearing yourself speak in a disembodied voice would probably be weird for most folks.

But hearing yourself Shout in a disembodied Voice is fine.

[Zetetic]

Yes, I think that's actually quite a reasonable distinction. Particularly given that the "shouting" and talking are really quite different actions.

[Smashbox]

Yeah, the voice of Hawk in the sequel left a lot to be desired. No! That's not how I meant to say it!

To a certain extent, Skyrim's protagosilence can allow you to inject more of yourself into the character.

[Alez]

Maybe it's because in skyrim you hardly have any choice. You could just as well hit enter enter enter - done. Now go in that dungeon and bring back the thing at the end. Your character never says anything long or interesting to matter, i'd probably just skip forward anyway. It's mostly just agreeing to help someone. So the absence isn't noticeable.

Maybe it's because Dragon Age came after Mass Effect, a game which had voice players. The first one that i know of from Bioware. So the shift back to only text might have felt weird for some.

In The Elder Scrolls i guess we were all used to it by now. I'm actually very amazed that EVERY NPC has voice. I still remember Morrowind's wall of texts very well(good thing they highlighted the important words). I would even prefer it that some NPCs only have text, like the shopkeepers that say the same thing over and over again. So you wish to master the arcane arts, so you wish to master the arcane arts, so you wish to master the arcane arts, so you wish to maste-aaaaaa!

[lasikbear]

I would say the shouting actually is kind of disorienting, or at least was for me the first few times.

[outoffeelinsobad]

Fuckin' bears, eh? I'm level 22, and I can't take 'em. I saw two take down a dragon. What the hell.

[Hensler]

Fuckin' bears, eh? I'm level 22, and I can't take 'em. I saw two take down a dragon. What the hell.

Just regular cave bears? Are you melee spec'ed? As an archer, I'm taking them out before they get even remotely close to me. I just did the quest to get 10 bear pelts. They do look like they'd be mean up close.

[vinraith]

But hearing yourself Shout in a disembodied Voice is fine.

Well, first person grunts of pain date back to Wolfenstein, so what can you do?

[Wizardry]

Well, first person grunts of pain date back to Wolfenstein, so what can you do?
Might and Magic III had them.

=)

[Fiyenyaa]

Just regular cave bears? Are you melee spec'ed? As an archer, I'm taking them out before they get even remotely close to me. I just did the quest to get 10 bear pelts. They do look like they'd be mean up close.

I'm level 20 melee specced (heavy armour, shield, one-handed weapons) and I can take 'em out fairly easily. Two is a bit of a stretch, and I'd probably be dicing with death if it was any more than that, but one bear is no match for me.

[Nalano]

I'm level 20 melee specced (heavy armour, shield, one-handed weapons) and I can take 'em out fairly easily. Two is a bit of a stretch, and I'd probably be dicing with death if it was any more than that, but one bear is no match for me.

Level 20, melee specced (heavy armor, dual-wield), I don't even need the armor. Slice-and-dice; they go down in two hits.

[Skalpadda]

How difficult combat is depends a lot more on skills, perks and gear than what level you are.

On the voice thing, I'm happier with silent PCs in RPGs just because what the voice actor says is rarely in the tone I imagined it would be. The dialogue wheel with compressed options in Mass Effect made it even worse by sometimes being completely different words than I imagined as well. How many RPGs with fully voiced PCs have there even been? Mass Effect 1 & 2, DA 2, Alpha Protocol, ??

[Nalano]

How difficult combat is depends a lot more on skills, perks and gear than what level you are.

On the voice thing, I'm happier with silent PCs in RPGs just because what the voice actor says is rarely in the tone I imagined it would be. The dialogue wheel with compressed options in Mass Effect made it even worse by sometimes being completely different words than I imagined as well. How many RPGs with fully voiced PCs have there even been? Mass Effect 1 & 2, DA 2, Alpha Protocol, ??

The Witcher series.

Personally, I don't mind voiced protagonists. I get that you get to inject your views on a mute protagonist because s/he never says anything to contradict the image you've made of him/her, but having the character speak those views does, for me, help a lot in the characterization and flow of the scene or encounter.

For a non-RPG example, Saints Row 3 grants you the ability to change your character's voice between three male and three female (and one zombie) accents, and whenever your character snarks to the supporting characters, it really helps set the mood, so to speak.

[Tom OBedlam]

Ra'Shiid the Tap-Dancing Khajiit, or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Letter 'C'

So let me preface this, for an incredibly long time I have loathed the letter 'C'. It's a useless letter. It accomplishes absolutely nothing that cannot be achieved with either an 'S' or a 'K'. Nothing. As such, as a heavy drinker and a qualified pedant -English Literature, Master of (Dark) Arts - I've had many a tirade against the wretched thing in taverns across the land and would gladly skewer the feckless incompetents that let this lackadaisical 'U' infiltrate the alphabet.

And yet, and yet... Skyrim has shown me the light, the necessity of the letter 'C'. No longer is this half arsed 'O' a burden to my keyboard, for now I have learned that 'C' is the "tourism", or "beer, pizza and fjords" button.

I like to drink while I'm gaming. I'll eat too if possible. Of course, most games require you to keep both hands on the K+M at all times, rendering all but The Sims unplayable for a brief moment as I eat or drink. Skyrim has expanded my horizons. Now I can happily eat my dinner while walkng from one end of the tundra to the other, only pausing my feasting briefly to deal with a sabre cat or, god forbid, an Ice Wraith.

Ra'shiid can quite happily tap-dance his way about Skyrim while I enjoy how beautiful it is and its all thanks to you, the letter 'C'.

[Wizardry]

Mass Effect 1 & 2, DA 2, Alpha Protocol, ??
And how many of those let you choose exactly what your character is going to say? See, that's the biggest issue with voiced protagonists.

[vinraith]

Might and Magic III had them.

=)

What year would that have been? I'm honestly curious how far back this goes.

[Wizardry]

What year would that have been? I'm honestly curious how far back this goes.
1991.

10char

[vinraith]

1991.

10char


No first person grunting noises before that that you can think of, then?

[Wizardry]

No first person grunting noises before that that you can think of, then?
Not in an RPG I don't think. I rechecked Wizardry VI and Dungeon Master. Nope.

[deathcarrot]

I'd much rather have a silent protagonist than not have a choice of race or gender. Skyrim has a huge amount of player dialogue, and recording it all 10 times over is simply unfeasible.

[Dubbill]

Not in an RPG I don't think. I rechecked Wizardry VI and Dungeon Master. Nope.

Dungeon Master had grunts for combat and, more annoyingly, walking into walls.

Edit: link http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/115

[Alez]

Can you guys knock it off with the wizardry offtopic? It's not enough that he derailed the topic at the beginning? I really tried to read every post before replying but i couldn't because of all the meaningless offtopic by him and the guys that just fueled his fire.

He likes old games, do we really have to go on and on about this shit? Just put him on your ignore list and be done with it.

On topic: Anyone else started to just rush through dungeons because there is no point to explore? Hidden loot doesn't even come close to what you can buy or make yourself. The only reason for dungeons now is getting a shout at the end. I can't remember the last time i actually found something useful on an enemy, the mages being the worst with lots of damage but no payoff(yay i can sell his best item for 150 gold, i'm rich!).

[Drake Sigar]

The hand-crafted dungeons are certainly welcome, I just went through an archer's paradise of high scaffolds built into a smuggler's cave/dock. They never even knew I was there until the grizzled leader remained. I gave him the slip by leaping atop his ship's mast. Suck it, baldy!


Dungeon Master had grunts for combat and, more annoyingly, walking into walls.
Didn't the party also take damage? You could make them beat themselves to death.

[Wizardry]

Dungeon Master had grunts for combat and, more annoyingly, walking into walls.

Edit: link http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/115
I had a feeling it did. I'm not sure why I wasn't hearing any in an Amiga LP I watched. Does the DOS version really have better sound?

[Berzee]

Can you guys knock it off with the wizardry offtopic?

It's not really off-topic, as it stems from discussing whether shouts are disorienting in Skyrim, and whether the silent protagonist in Skyrim is nifty or poor. =)

I like the silent approach for this kind of game, where the hero has no personality other than what you give him, a voice with another personality would sound a bit jarring.

On your topic: I'm still below level 20, and I still need every one of those 150g mage robes. I suppose I will eventually reach the point of being filthy rich and not needing to loot things...but I guess that's when it's time to reroll. =)

[thegooseking]

discussing whether shouts are disorienting in Skyrim

For the record, I wasn't even trying to start a discussion on that. I was just making what I thought was a joke, but turned out to be not funny.

[Dubbill]

Didn't the party also take damage? You could make them beat themselves to death.
Don't know about DOS. I played it on ST and they were definitely a feature. The nostalgia chills I got listening to those sound files confirmed it for me.


Anyone else started to just rush through dungeons because there is no point to explore? Hidden loot doesn't even come close to what you can buy or make yourself.
I'm at the point where I've got enough money to buy everything I could possibly need and doing the inventory juggle so I can sell some loot for a few hundred gold isn't worth it. That said I'm a hoarder and compulsive drawer-rifler so I find myself checking every inch of every dungeon regardless.

[Berzee]

For the record, I wasn't even trying to start a discussion on that. I was just making what I thought was a joke, but turned out to be not funny.

Ha, I thought you were being a little bit serious because I, for some reason, still have trouble timing my shouts, predicting their range, reaching the Z key on time, or stopping clicking long enough to be able to use one. (No trouble with the rest of the interface or controls, and I have mastered at least my favorite shouts by this point, but yes).

THE DISCUSSION HAS STARTED REGARDLESS OF YOUR INTENTION. STEP ASIDE, SON.

[vinraith]

For the record, I wasn't even trying to start a discussion on that. I was just making what I thought was a joke, but turned out to be not funny.

My reply was intended to be joking as well, but Wizardry prompted a genuinely interesting tangent on the topic IMO.

[Wulf]

This is entirely necessary.

https://1e400.net/i/BwPLkRv7/tumblr_luv84l7AUk1qfv0gio1_1280.png

That is all.

(Not quite all. I swear, I'm tempted to mod this. To have some dragon land by you and ask in a concerned way if you're entirely aware that you've been yelling 'PENIS' loudly at people. "Oh, I know, civil war, cloak & dagger, subterfuge and all that... but a little common decency goes a long way. And I figured you might like to know that you've been yelling penis very loudly at people. Right, time to go. They bade me to burn down some town or other... how tiresome. I'd rather be lounging on my horde. But yes, be careful with what words you use, eh? And don't die of humiliation now, that wouldn't help anyone.")

[DigitalSignalX]

I suppose I will eventually reach the point of being filthy rich and not needing to loot things...but I guess that's when it's time to reroll. =)

I made up little rules as I went along, like never loot anything under a 1 to 20 weight : value ratio except alchemy ingredients. Now I'm almost 40, have over 70k septims, and it's 1 to 100-ish ratio unless unique/pretty for house decorating purposes (ie: books + named items).

Problem is, my speech isn't high enough yet to invest in merchants so I can't offload hideously expensive items.

[agentorange]

Problem is, my speech isn't high enough yet to invest in merchants so I can't offload hideously expensive items.

I'm having this problem in Morrowind at the moment. Why are all the shop keepers so damned poor.

[Malawi Frontier Guard]

I'm having this problem in Morrowind at the moment. Why are all the shop keepers so damned poor.

Get Tribunal. It's like cheating.

Mournhold has an entire district with merchants of all kinds holding thousands of coins. Just go to the blacksmith, sell one piece of glass armor or other valuable, then rest for 24 hours right on the spot and repeat.

[Skalpadda]

On the dungeons thing, I'm still enjoying them a lot for pure exploration alone. Stumbling over quests and interesting little stories is great, regardless of what loot I get out of it in the end. Last night I had an amazing crawl through some Dwemer ruins with it's own little mini-plotline running throughout. That it wasn't some boring NPC that sent me there on a quest, but a discovery made when I decided to climb a mountain because it looked interesting, made it feel all the more like a piece of my own experience as I carve out an existence in the game world.

I think the main reason Skyrim is sticking to me much more than Oblivion and Fallout 3 is that this is a world with places I actually want to explore. It keeps surprising me with new things and it often looks beautiful and very diverse which, to me, matters a lot when so much of the game is spent running around looking for adventures.

[Grizzly]

I'm having this problem in Morrowind at the moment. Why are all the shop keepers so damned poor.

Because they can not account for the MASSIVE INFLATION you caused by turning up every damn treasure on the whole damn continent.

[Hensler]

Kind of disappointed in the Shout Power system - after the first burst of announcement information, I avoided most stories about Skyrim. So I thought you gathered up Words in the game, and could combine any 3 of them into any Shout you wanted. Sort of a contemporary take on the way the original Elder Scrolls games let you create your own magic spells. Unfortunately, it seems that the Shouts are just another set of spells, with the individual Words just being ways of leveling them up.

Creating my own magic was probably the ONLY thing I liked about Two Worlds 2 earlier this year.

[Alez]

it seems that the Shouts are just another set of spells, with the individual Words just being ways of leveling them up.

As a mage, i found that a bit disappointing. Apart from a few, they really do feel like magic spells that every class can use. I even found shouts that act exactly like some spells. The one that shoots an ice ball, i think they call it a blizzard, is both a spell and a shout.
It's a "random shit" magic tree, unlike the other magic trees with a certain theme.
The only difference between shouts and spells is that one uses mana while the other recharges over time. The only reason they don't make the mage redundant is because they can't be spammed since they have long cooldowns.

[Lukasz]

Small question:
do bodies ever disappear or can you keep your dead companions for eternity in your basement?

[DigitalSignalX]

It seems like forever.

[Shane]

Small question:
do bodies ever disappear or can you keep your dead companions for eternity in your basement?

From what I came across on the internet, it takes some days for them to disappear. I'd like a mod that allows me to drag the the bodies from public places.

[Vendetta11]

Okay, I apologize in advance if this has been discussed already (which I am sure it has), but has anyone experienced issues with CTD's? I have tried a few different things in regards to the graphics options, but nothing has worked.

Anyone have any advice?

[Harlander]

Steam just downloaded.. something.. to do with Skyrim, but it's cagey on the details..

[Drake Sigar]

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh154/AEedwin/2011-11-21_00001.jpg

Finally found one of those damn outfits shown in the loading screen (though this is the hooded version). I got it off a dead Thalmor agent right after escaping Helgen. Following the empire/stormcloak guy for a short time the road splits off in two directions, the left path takes you to a small hill where a religious massacre has taken place. No idea if anyone cares, but the awesome loading screen characters have been driving me crazy.

[SirKicksalot]

I keep playing this game although for some unfixable reason the performance is atrocious in forests, towns and sometimes in the empty tundra. Speaking of tundra, watching a herd of mammoths during a clear night with aurora was mindblowing.

I am disappointed by some things. Cooking and crafting are... not that great. Risen did it much better. Mining and chopping wood are shit. Transmutation and random gems make mining worth it though.

As for the dragon fights: I really hope they're not as bad as the first one. I ran up to the top of the tower, anticipating an epic low-budget 1980s fantasy duel. Instead of that I fired an arrow, then the dragon decided to land and I sniped him with about 6 arrows and he died. The fuck was that? Also I raged for a couple of minutes because the other soldiers were stuck in the door and I couldn't exit the tower.

I avoided dragon fights since then. I'm happy to just let them fly around, they really add to the atmosphere.

[Bristoff]

As for the dragon fights: I really hope they're not as bad as the first one. I ran up to the top of the tower, anticipating an epic low-budget 1980s fantasy duel. Instead of that I fired an arrow, then the dragon decided to land and I sniped him with about 6 arrows and he died. The fuck was that? Also I raged for a couple of minutes because the other soldiers were stuck in the door and I couldn't exit the tower.

I avoided dragon fights since then. I'm happy to just let them fly around, they really add to the atmosphere.

You might want to turn the difficulty up a bit. Also, dragon fights are much easier when you have 5-6 npc's helping you, like you do with the first one.

[DigitalSignalX]

The first dragon fight is mostly just a primer for the main quest / shouts / storyline. Later on you get some really epic 1v1 fights with different types. If you're lucky, you can also get a random one in towns where they land on buildings etc. I got that once then accidentally hit F9 instead of print screen (ugh.. so stupid) mid-fight and haven't had it happen since.

[archonsod]

I've had them attack towns a few times. Falkeath is usually good for it, the dockside at Riften quite often suffers. Winterhold tends to get one now and again (which makes for epic fights in the middle of a blizzard).

[Triangulon]

Steam just downloaded.. something.. to do with Skyrim, but it's cagey on the details..

It appears to be a 'fix' to stop people from launching the game via the .exe file if its been edited to allow for more than 2GB of RAM. I was one of many using this workaround to stop the game from crashing to desktop every 5-10 minutes. Rather fustrated with the whole palaver to be honest. The game is just unplayable for me.

[Faldrath]

It appears to be a 'fix' to stop people from launching the game via the .exe file if its been edited to allow for more than 2GB of RAM. I was one of many using this workaround to stop the game from crashing to desktop every 5-10 minutes. Rather fustrated with the whole palaver to be honest. The game is just unplayable for me.

Yeah, confirming that the game no longer launches if you edit the .exe to allow more than 2GB. Whee.

[JamesG]

I'm fortunate enough not to suffer the regular CTDs. But with other games where a 'large address space aware' fix has been suggested, I've also had success with disabling DEP for the program in question. (Note: This is a security risk.)

My Computer>Properties>Advanced System Settings>Advanced (tab)>Performance (Settings button)>Data Execution Prevention Then add Skyrim to the exceptions list.

I just discovered that DEP had some how gotten switched to 'essential programs only' on my system, which might explain why I wasn't having trouble.

[apricotsoup]

It also fixed the bug where archmage robes and a mask would make your head dissapear, mildly dissapointed as the masks are uglier than being headless.

[GothicEmperor]

My brother just bought the physical version, with the funky map, and all I want to do is sneak up to his room, pick the lock and pickpocket him while he's asleep*.

*TES really needs some pajamas in a future installment; I'm having a hard time obeying Barlgruuf the Greater when he hasn't changed his clothing for half a year. Thank Talos I can't smell anything in the game.

[Alez]

speaking of all these dragons, isn't it a bit sad now that Dragon Age is called that? Skyrim totally should have been called The Elder Scrolls: Dragon Age while DA: Orks Age.

I'm not even talking about the second game where i don't remember if you ever see a dragon. Some Tall Dudes With Horns and Persecuted Mages...Age

Please don't take it as an insult to the first DA game. I loved it. It's just a weird name now compared to how many dragons are in skyrim.

[Wizardry]

speaking of all these dragons, isn't it a bit sad now that Dragon Age is called that? Skyrim totally should have been called The Elder Scrolls: Dragon Age while DA: Orks Age.
It wouldn't really fit too well with the naming convention of the games. Daggerfall, province. Morrowind, province. Oblivion, dimensional planes. Skyrim, province.

[TillEulenspiegel]

oops, nevermind

[DigitalSignalX]

I was thinking about DA:2 tonight, and betting the Beth developers were smirking. All Skyrims dungeons are superbly unique, the towns alive and bustling. DA:2 - not so much. And they did it on one disc.

[Grizzly]

And they did it on one disc.

To be fair to Bioware, Bethsoft has cheated by using some sort of awesome compression algorithm.

[squirrelfanatic]

Yeah, confirming that the game no longer launches if you edit the .exe to allow more than 2GB. Whee.Works fine for me. I am using the Nexus Mod Manager though, so that could be it (possibly?).

I already love the game after playing ~5 hours. My first dragon fight was epic and it was the first fight where I came close to dying. I didn't go for the tower & bow "stragegy" though but took the badboy on fur-to-face (I'm playing a sneaky Khajit with an interest in spellcasting).

Already there are some great mods available that really add to the game, like the compass editor for example. What did not work very well for me was the FXAA injector thingy. I tried different settings but felt like they were inferior to my vanilla settings (i.e. it was frickin' dark everywhere I looked - combine that with really bright colours and you/I can't make out any details anymore).

Lovely game. :)

[duff]

Skyrim has alot of flaws but it shits on DA2 all day long.

[Shane]

Bioware's games were always shit but still Dragon Age 2/The Witcher 2 are quite the opposite of what Skyrim and the TES series in general is about.

[duff]

Shane - your completely right, they are very different types of RPG's, and personally I prefer Bioware types with an emphasis on characters rather than places or a big sandbox world (I really didn't like Fallout 3 but loved DA:Origins). But in terms of sheer ambition and mechanically making a good game, i.e. not having a ridiculously lazy combat system with enemies beaming in from the starship USS Rushed Cash In and a grand total of about 2 different 'dungeons'.

[squirrelfanatic]

Works fine for me. I am using the Nexus Mod Manager though, so that could be it (possibly?).
Seems like I missed something here. The last time I launched the game was before the "patch". However, this doesn't seem too bad of a problem, as there is already a 4GB RAM enabler mod available.

[Vexing Vision]

The dragon-fights aren't nearly as bad as I was afraid they'd be. I don't know what made me wait with engaging them in the major storyline so long.

Also, I don't get what people's issue is with destruction magic. I go sword + spell since level 3, and it's So. Much. Fun.

Mages certainly feel the most powerful since Daggerfall. But I really, really miss Flight.


So, what's the next Elder Scrolls? I'd love to visit the Summerset Isle or Elsweyr, but I bet it'll be Hammerfell (again, like in the 3d action puzzler spin-off they released in... uh... 97? 98?).

[Lukasz]

But I really, really miss Flight.


blame consoles for that. with flight you would be able to go anywhere, to every open city. so cities would have to be part of the world like in morrowind (unless they had roof). that takes memory. consoles don't have it.

[squirrelfanatic]

blame consoles for that. with flight you would be able to go anywhere, to every open city. so cities would have to be part of the world like in morrowind (unless they had roof). that takes memory. consoles don't have it.Yes, I too miss the open cities of Morrowind that you could enter by hopping over the city wall. It really saddened me when I tried this with the first city I came across and got hit by an invisible wall.

[Harlander]

Mages certainly feel the most powerful since Daggerfall. But I really, really miss Flight.

The stupidly over-the-top ragdolling you get when you kill someone with a bolt spell really adds to the "I am the master of the elements!" feel, especially if you can nuke a few dudes in quick succession.

I do too miss flight. Heck, they could have just allowed it on the overworld, with towns protected by some kind of anti-flight dealibo (like the anti-dragon dealibos in Divinity II, for example).

I also miss making my own spells. Even though I didn't do it a whole lot. Ho hum.

[Vexing Vision]

I also miss making my own spells. Even though I didn't do it a whole lot. Ho hum.

So do I, but the Enchantment options at least scratch that itch quite nicely. Especially once you can place two Enchantments on one item.

[Lukasz]

i think oblivion has proper open cities mod. i never tried it myself so i don't know how good is it. maybe skyrim will get one too?

[GraveyardJimmy]

I had a feeling it did. I'm not sure why I wasn't hearing any in an Amiga LP I watched. Does the DOS version really have better sound?

An old RPG I played that I cant recall the name of also had grunts for running into walls. Not sure if its older than dungeon master, but the graphics were almost wireframe iirc (this was quite some time ago). Came on a floppy demo disk somewhere I think and the main enemies at the start were bats and you could kill yourself by using wands wrong or running into walls.

Edit: Now I think, I dont remember any stats in the game so it was more of an adventure and possibly not even an rpg. Might have been a home programmed shareware rather than a commercial game for all I know, which would place it more recently than Dungeon Master.

[deathcarrot]

So, what's the next Elder Scrolls? I'd love to visit the Summerset Isle or Elsweyr, but I bet it'll be Hammerfell (again, like in the 3d action puzzler spin-off they released in... uh... 97? 98?).
I'm guessing (hoping) Summerset Isle and/or Valenwood, with the main plot being something to do with the Thalmor.

[Alez]

Also, I don't get what people's issue is with destruction magic. I go sword + spell since level 3, and it's So. Much. Fun.

My problem is that at level 38 i couldn't do anything other than dual cast the second most powerful(expert) set of spells. I needed to dual cast so i could stun lock the enemy and just pound away at their high hit points.

I don't think it's a viable build to use destruction in just one hand because of the low damage. Might as well use a shield and hack away with your sword that will end up doing insane amounts of damage.

After i unlocked the master level spells, the best ones you can find in the game, i realized they were pretty much useless. I won't spoil it for you but the mage is more and more weak after you reach level 30-something, i think.

[Shane]

How do I rectify this?

390391392

Edit: Shit, increasing the ugrid, exterior cell buffer fixed it.

[Theblazeuk]

So, my invincible black horse of doom has finally gone. The horse which outlived and outfought three brave - but shortlived - companions is no longer my faithful steed.

I think he went feral after I used a horse I found near a dead body. I assumed he would still follow me loyally 'pon my next quick travel, but he never came. I should have known he was never tamed - no creature that would charge a dragon so bravely or stamp necromancers to death could ever be tamed. He only stayed out of loyalty to me, and I abused that trust.

Somewhere out there he runs through the mountains, chased by dragons and kicking trolls to pieces.

[Drake Sigar]

Also, I don't get what people's issue is with destruction magic. I go sword + spell since level 3, and it's So. Much. Fun.
Indeed. I just cleared out a den of necromancers with a couple of other mages, and every fight was a chaotic maelstrom of colourful projectiles. Weaving between flying icicles and causing fireballs to crash harmlessly against a well timed shield spell, holding tight corridors A New Hope style and watching one of my allies fly backwards when struck by a final blast, these are fantastic moments.

[Smashbox]

i think oblivion has proper open cities mod. i never tried it myself so i don't know how good is it. maybe skyrim will get one too?

I would really like to see something like this. Also, just let me enter houses without a load. Is something like this even possible with a mod?

[jryan]

The one thing I miss most from previous ES games is the enchantment system in Daggerfall. It seems so odd that the most realized, most interesting enchanting system was 3 iterations ago.

For those who haven't played: The enchanting system in Daggerfall was a work of art. When you trapped a soul and bound it to a weapon the weapon gained some of the attributes of the soul the gem held. A vampire soul added life steal to the blade, but also added a limitation that it dissolved if drawn in sunlight.

Along with that the weapons all had innate magic capability that the soul augmented. So a Steel Sword could have a given amount of points spent on it's powers while a daedric weapon had more, and the stronger the soul you used, the higher that point level went.

Once you had the Soul+Weapon points you could then pick disadvantages for the item that would further raise the point potential of the weapon (added weight, subtracts from stats, dissolves in sunlight, etc.), and THEN you purchased the actual enchantments. These could run from basic stat bonuses to weapon damage and abilities like life steal and lowered weight of the item.

It really made for a nice variety in weapons and items. It also allowed me to make a class called "Soul Hunter" who's skills all revolved around their ability to locate and trap exotic souls.

That lasted for one game though since Morrowind trashed the whole system and dumbed it down.

[EBass]

blame consoles for that. with flight you would be able to go anywhere, to every open city. so cities would have to be part of the world like in morrowind (unless they had roof). that takes memory. consoles don't have it.

Yea I figured this was the reason too, but didn't they port Morrowind to the original XBox? Which I'm fairly sure had bugger all memory. Either way I don't really understand how consoles could have the memory to walk over the entire map without memory constraints but not into cities themselves? I mean when it comes down to it they are just a mash of solid objects with textures like rocks or trees, except of course for the interiors which require loading anyway?

[Wizardry]

Yes, I too miss the open cities of Morrowind that you could enter by hopping over the city wall. It really saddened me when I tried this with the first city I came across and got hit by an invisible wall.
Scaling the city walls in Daggerfall at night was pretty epic. It wouldn't work now, though, as there'd be a bloody loading screen once you got to the top.

[Lukasz]

Yea I figured this was the reason too, but didn't they port Morrowind to the original XBox? Which I'm fairly sure had bugger all memory.
No idea how that went

Either way I don't really understand how consoles could have the memory to walk over the entire map without memory constraints but not into cities themselves? I mean when it comes down to it they are just a mash of solid objects with textures like rocks or trees, except of course for the interiors which require loading anyway?
to render terrain is much simpler than rendering cities. buildings are very complicated, you have lots of details like barrels, benches, paintings...
terrain is generic. it is repeatable. for miles you are seeing the same stuff just in different shape.

[Berzee]

Ha, I have discovered the joy of starting giant fights by my mere presence. In my attempts to get loot without actually having to resort to violence, I successfully instigated fights between:

Frostbite Spiders vs. Stormcloaks
Spriggans and Pets vs. Hunters
Mammoths vs. Bandits vs. Wolves vs. Sabre Cats
Thalmor Justiciars (found fighting Stormcloaks) vs. Black Mage and Fire Atronach vs. Bandits vs. Wolves
The surviving 2 Justiciars versus the entire Companion's Guild (they followed me home).

[DigitalSignalX]

So, my invincible black horse of doom has finally gone. The horse which outlived and outfought three brave - but shortlived - companions is no longer my faithful steed. ... Somewhere out there he runs through the mountains, chased by dragons and kicking trolls to pieces.

I've had 2 horses now, the one from Whiterun and one from Marketh, and both were terrible sissies, running away at every opportunity should a fight happen near them. Curious where everyone is getting their tough-guy horses from??

[BwenGun]

Can anyone who's versed in TES lore tell me why Northern Skyrim's climate is so... odd? Why, for example, Solitude has no snow on the ground, but only a little way to the East you essentially have ice-fields that wouldn't be out of place on the Northern coasts of Norway or Finland? Whilst from recollection outside of Soltsheim Morrowind further East wasn't snowed under in it's Northern reaches either.

I ask because I constantly hear that the Nords came from Atmora, which was a fairly prosperous area with many Kingdoms until the Nords started migrating south, yet if the climate was as it is today then it would be hard to imagine anything surviving further to the North than places like Winterhold. Is the world Tamriel inhabits then experiencing an ice-age of cooling down period? And if so why is it affecting northern Skyrim worse than High Rock and Morrowind?

I'm mostly just curious as to whether there's an actual explanation for it all or whether it's just a case of the game designers deciding they wanted a Viking region for their gameworld without really thinking through how the geography of the gameworld would affect climate.

[Wulf]

So... anyone else disappointed by the lack of choice surrounding Maven Black-Briar?

Maven is by far the most annoying NPC in the game, bar none. She's callous, underhanded, a murderer, a thief, and she treats the people of Riften like slaves. And the only choices you have in regards to her are:

- Help her.
- Help her some more.
- Appoint her as the Jarl of Riften.

She's set as essential, so you can't even just kill her (quests be damned). You can't kill the other Black-Briars, either. And the entire Thieves Guild in Skyrim is just made up of thugs and not really a true 'Thieves Guild' at all (as it was in Morrowind and, to a lesser extent, Oblivion). So I just wanted to clear the lot of them out. I thought that nice lady, the one with the 'the Lionesss' suffix, would help me do that. But no, she just whines and whines about the Black-briars.

Hello, Skyrim! I'm here! I exist! And I want to clear out the Black-briar corruption! Why can I not do this?

How can they create an NPC like that and not anticipate people wanting to take her out? I've watched her and her family of thugs bully the peoples of Riften relentlessly and it bugs the snot out of me. I'm inches away from just using 'disable' on her and her family via the console, game breaking be damned. I'm all for having her there as an option for the evil characters, but what's happening in Skyrim is nothing short of slavery. She's having merchants give her family their livelihood for free and such.

And this bothers me.

There's a little voice at the back of my head that says: "Bethesda supports slavery and organised crime."

It's bugging me that much. And when you get to Riften, it'll bug you too. Why they hadn't considered that some of us might want to make Riften a different sort of place is beyond me. The thing is is that it can't get any worse than Maven, with what she was doing, and I'd take up the role of damned Jarl myself to get Riften on the right track if I had to.

The best I can hope for now is mods.

But again, this is what I get from Bethesda games. I feel like I'm never playing my story, I'm playing a linear storyline that someone else has laid out for me. I don't have any real choice and consequence, and the choice that does exist is largely an illusion.

But this is the first time it's bugged me to this extent.

A person who makes the lives of an entire city hell is essential, and my only options are to help her.

[Ravenger]

A person who makes the lives of an entire city hell is essential, and my only options are to help her.

I totally agree. I've decided not to pursue that quest line now, as it was so distasteful to me. I wish there was an alternate path where you could infiltrate the thieves guild to close it down and destroy Maven.

[JamesG]

I've only just found Riften, and haven't met Maven Black-briar yet, but was surprised at how quickly seeing the state of Riften turned me off joining the thieves' guild. I'm disappointed to hear that there isn't an alternative quest-line to improve things in Riften.

[Berzee]

riften stuff

Ugh! I didn't know any of that and I don't even mind having it spoiled because it means that I am not going to waste any more time in Riften (maybe I'll do some thieves guild stuff but like you say, they're pretty thuggish too). The amount of unkillable NPCs in this game is not ruining my fun, but it is certainly putting some temporary dampeners on it from time to time! Even if I could just kill a Jarl or two and then reload, I'd be happier. =P

But with a bratty Jarl it's sort of fine that they're deemed essential. With a not-main-plot-critical but critically-irritating NPC like Maven, it seems like a glaring oversight.

At least I know not to try, now. =)


I'm disappointed to hear that there isn't an alternative quest-line to improve things in Riften.

Especially since the first person you meet in the city is a warrior on a personal quest to do exactly that. o_O

[Nalano]

So... anyone else disappointed by the lack of choice surrounding Maven Black-Briar?

I totally agree. I've decided not to pursue that quest line now, as it was so distasteful to me.

I've only just found Riften, and haven't met Maven Black-briar yet, but was surprised at how quickly seeing the state of Riften turned me off joining the thieves' guild.

Yes, yes and yes. I found Riften, spent ten minutes there, turned tail and walked away never to return.

Kinda reminds me of Mass Effect 2, but at least ME2 had the excuse that if you didn't pick up the idiot ball, there wouldn't be a game.

[Berzee]

Riften reminds me of the Half-Ogre Island quest in Arcanum.
(spoilz)
where you discover a plot by basically ALL GNOMES to create an oft-deadly forced-breeding program between ogres and humans in order to create a race of bodyguards...and the most you can do is shoot the messenger after he tells you "haha no one will ever believe u"

proving once again that the only thing stronger than The Chosen Hero is The Narrator
(/spoilz)

I like the theory I found while googling, that Maven has Bethesda under her control as well.

[EBass]

So... anyone else disappointed by the lack of choice surrounding Maven Black-Briar?

Maven is by far the most annoying NPC in the game, bar none. She's callous, underhanded, a murderer, a thief, and she treats the people of Riften like slaves. And the only choices you have in regards to her are:

- Help her.
- Help her some more.
- Appoint her as the Jarl of Riften.

She's set as essential, so you can't even just kill her (quests be damned). You can't kill the other Black-Briars, either. And the entire Thieves Guild in Skyrim is just made up of thugs and not really a true 'Thieves Guild' at all (as it was in Morrowind and, to a lesser extent, Oblivion). So I just wanted to clear the lot of them out. I thought that nice lady, the one with the 'the Lionesss' suffix, would help me do that. But no, she just whines and whines about the Black-briars.

Hello, Skyrim! I'm here! I exist! And I want to clear out the Black-briar corruption! Why can I not do this?

How can they create an NPC like that and not anticipate people wanting to take her out? I've watched her and her family of thugs bully the peoples of Riften relentlessly and it bugs the snot out of me. I'm inches away from just using 'disable' on her and her family via the console, game breaking be damned. I'm all for having her there as an option for the evil characters, but what's happening in Skyrim is nothing short of slavery. She's having merchants give her family their livelihood for free and such.

And this bothers me.

There's a little voice at the back of my head that says: "Bethesda supports slavery and organised crime."

It's bugging me that much. And when you get to Riften, it'll bug you too. Why they hadn't considered that some of us might want to make Riften a different sort of place is beyond me. The thing is is that it can't get any worse than Maven, with what she was doing, and I'd take up the role of damned Jarl myself to get Riften on the right track if I had to.

The best I can hope for now is mods.

But again, this is what I get from Bethesda games. I feel like I'm never playing my story, I'm playing a linear storyline that someone else has laid out for me. I don't have any real choice and consequence, and the choice that does exist is largely an illusion.

But this is the first time it's bugged me to this extent.

A person who makes the lives of an entire city hell is essential, and my only options are to help her.

This issue annoys me in ALL eldar scrolls games, they went some way towards correcting it in FO3 (It was better at least) so I figured they were learning, but Skyrim feels like square one in that regard. My character doesen't really have a morality because of the lack of any other real agency other than to NOT do the quests.

Perfect example *small spoilers* theres a daedric prince quest where you have to make a priest of some deity go to a daedric shrine in order to "banish" a daedric lord at the request of the Daedric Lord. Thing is you have to do it that way, even though he specifically says he has the power to banish him the only way to do the quest is to obey the Daedric lord and make him submit to him. I don't really want to do this but because the game puts absolutely no negative consequences on it I do it anyway. Pretty much the only response to most quests that are morally repugnant is don't do them, but I do them anyway because I don't want to miss out on cool parts of the game (read Dark Brotherhood).

[Drake Sigar]

You want to be a moral assassin?

I'm kinda annoyed that you don't get to be a Jarl yourself. It would have been interesting to run a city and go to war with neighbouring Jarls, tax the people, obtain mining rights and such to upgrade your walls, grant audiences to the locals, etc. I wouldn't mind so much if everyone wasn't sitting on a throne but me!

[Wulf]

Especially since the first person you meet in the city is a warrior on a personal quest to do exactly that. o_O

This is precisely what made me twitch. Wulf doesn't like Skyrim as much as he should. I know, I know. The thing that bothers me most though is... gah. They half-arsed so much in the name of dragons. I wish they'd just concentrated on a different storyline and gave the game more of its own identity with less half-arsed content.

It's like they started stuff, but then they dropped it half way through. I keep thinking "Ah, great, more unfinished stuff." and this is a recurring thought in my head. I'm not being nasty, that's the thing. I was willing to give Skyrim a fair shake, like I am with everything. Sometimes I prove myself wrong (Mass Effect 2 was better than I expected it to be), but here? I don't know... I just feel that I'm validating myself. There are times when I want to be wrong. Where I want my anger to be misplaced.

But Skyrim is just proving everything I've ever said: If you're just the sort of mainstream person who wants to run through the game as an idiot warrior slaying dragons, then you're not going to notice any problems. But the moment you start looking at the other content, you realise how infuriatingly unfinished it all is. That they started on stuff which would have been good, which would have been so much better than just slaying dragons for the sake of slaying dragons, and then they abandoned it.

There was that nice lady that I mentioned, yes. The one with the suffix of 'the Lioness.' That gave me hope. I stuck around Riften and tried my hardest to find a way to get into how I'd overthrow Maven. It had to happen, right? I totally have to overthrow Maven. And then... nothing. Lioness lady is unhelpful, no one seems to want to escape their fate, and the whole place is just incredibly depressing.

"Yes, we know how bad it is, but none of us are going to give you any means to make it any better. We'll just all continue suffering if it's all the same to you. I kind of like the murder threats that Maven shoves in my face every morning."

The only option I have to do now is to sullenly and sadly turn tail and leave Riften behind, knowing that there was absolutely nothing I could do. Even if I made things worse somehow, it wouldn't have mattered. But that Skyrim stopped me from trying, that's the part that gets me.

It's when this happens that the game stops being an RPG and becomes an action adventure title instead. (This is just like how I couldn't stop that execution in Solitude, how I had no closure with the Companions, and all those other, other things... that I wanted to do but couldn't because the choices just weren't there.)

---EDIT---

That Maven is sent as ESSENTIAL is just incredibly galling. I'm trying not to be incredibly irritated by this but I can't help it. Didn't they learn anything from New Vegas?

The New Vegas approach: You kill Maven. The Black-briars come after you. You kill the Black-briars. You take down Maul. All quests relating to them become unavailable. Everyone in Riften starts talking about how they can breathe a little easier now that Maven is no longer handing out death threats every day.

Why... why... why do you never learn, Bethesda? I want you to learn.

See, my character wouldn't have walked away from that. He would have tried, and he would have died trying. So let me die trying! An RPG should never let you not try. That defies everything an RPG is.

[sinister agent]

Re: Limited options in dealing with stuff.

The first human I met on the quick hour-long test run I had was a woman who ran up to me in the wilderness and said "thank god! I thought i'd neer see another person again!". The only conversation option was "calm down dear, let me reassure you with hugs and kittens and go and be heroic for you" (or words to that effect.

So, I exited the conversation and walked off. She said "Thank you!" and carried on as if I'd gone through whatever the conversation I'd opted out of said.

I choose to believe that the cold weather and plentiful booze has simply left everyone a bit broken in the head. It makes it quite amusing in parts.

[Alez]

I just found probably one of the greatest "spells" for my mage.

With my will alone, i can make things disappear. Just like that, i point to them and they cease to exist. Nobody knows where the things go and nobody dares ask the mighty and slightly mad dragonborn or they too might vanish into thin air.

Essential character, only death they know is kneeling down a little bit before being fine? *poof* gone. Get up now fuckers!
Children? You think i'm here to lick your father's boots? *poof* be gone devil child!

I am of course talking about bringing up the console, selecting an item and typing "disable".

I wish the game had more fun spells...

[sinister agent]

I'm hoping for a mod with a spell that turns people into children. And children into little babies. Bonus points if they respond by saying "Smeg! You youthed me!"

[aerozol]

To be fair, there's no possible way that Skyrim as a game could exist on that scale with every NPC taking into account your every wish, or events not being pretty linear. If they focused on the small pieces instead of just scale, we'd have a different game.
That being said, god-damn, I want to kill Maven Black-Briar so bad. Maybe there's some way we could fund a mod to do it entirely. I'm head of the freakin thieves guild now, and still can't do anything, and everyone in there is still a douche to me. Great, I made the world a worse place, and got some coin I don't need. Ugh.

Edit: Using the disable 'spell' on the lot of them would be pretty good...

[Berzee]

To be fair, there's no possible way that Skyrim as a game could exist on that scale with every NPC taking into account your every wish, or events not being pretty linear. If they focused on the small pieces instead of just scale, we'd have a different game.

Yeah, it's fun but wishful thinking to talk about everything Skyrim COULD have been. In their current system the choices have to be written and programmed...but as you say, Maven is a special case. =) It's one thing to make random insignificant characters not really treat you in a special way. It's another to make the most obnoxious and depressing characters and locations totally immutable.

I think a good rule of thumb is that if a character is special enough that they deserve the Invincibility of Essentiality, the player should be able to have a hand in the future of that character in other interesting ways. What makes Maven so weird is that only half of that opportunity materializes, and it's the half that nobody in their right mind wants. =P

See? This is how we get when we get used to being able to fix any problem in the world with violence. :P

[Wulf]

Yeah, but see... I don't think I'm being unfair and I don't think it's wishful thinking. New Vegas already did it. Go through a number of questlines and try to think of every possible insane thing you could try, and then do it. Do it all. And watch the madmen at Obsidian account for and predict every damn one of them. This was the sheer batshit crazy of New Vegas that impressed me so much, that left an impression. It wasn't just that they were reacting how I would want them to, but more that they'd anticipated how many people might have approached the situation differently.

Some missions had so many choices and approaches that it was dizzying. One mission had so many that, yes, it broke badly. But it was patched soon enough and continued to be impressive. I don't mind a game being a bit buggy if it goes to such lengths to provide me with not only freedom, but narrative based upon my freedom. Skyrim is buggy though without even getting near what Fallout 3 offered in the way of freedom, let alone New Vegas, and I suppose I find that disappointing.

And furthermore, I think it's just jumping to the defence of the game too much when what we're talking about is a scenario where we have a person who's enslaved an entire city, insults people, waves death threats at them, treats them like utter shit, and our only options are to help her, and... make her the Jarl. That's it. After seeing how she waved a death threat at one merchant just for standing up for himself and not 'giving his goods away for free,' because he was poor and had to make a living, I knew I had to chase her out of Riften. She's a disgusting person.

And my only option is to help her?

I just can't get over that amount of short-sightedness. And thinking that someone else, like Obsidian, would have put in the option to allow me to chase Maven out of Riften isn't wishful thinking at all.

---

I think that saying that would be like, if, say there was a scenario where we were forced to help the Dark Brotherhood, and we could do nothing to stop them, and that it would be 'wishful thinking' for Bethesda to have anticipated that people might have wanted other quest lines rather than just being forced into helping the Dark Brotherhood, or just ignoring all the content there.

---

And just as a nail in the coffin, plenty of people in New Vegas reacted to people being taken out, even if it wasn't related to a questline.

[Berzee]

Oh, I wasn't talking about Maven when I was saying it was wishful thinking. That whole Riften business was a huge mistake. I was talking about the quote that I quoted right before I wrote that ;) where he was talking about "every NPC taking into account your every wish".

My wife has a theory though, that the reason they won't let you change Riften is because they WANT it to remain a scummy city so that the game will always have, y'know, that seedy side. I don't know if she believes this theory or just offered it as an alternative to attempt to explain the madness (I could ask her, but she's drinking an eggnog milkshake right now and I don't want to ruin that experience by making her think about Riften again).

[Nalano]

My wife has a theory though, that the reason they won't let you change Riften is because they WANT it to remain a scummy city so that the game will always have, y'know, that seedy side. I don't know if she believes this theory or just offered it as an alternative to attempt to explain the madness (I could ask her, but she's drinking an eggnog milkshake right now and I don't want to ruin that experience by making her think about Riften again).

What, just like Windhelm is The Racist City? Plenty of instances where people point out just how badly the Nords treat the Dunmer, but you can't call the Jarl to task on it.

[Berzee]

What, just like Windhelm is The Racist City? Plenty of instances where people point out just how badly the Nords treat the Dunmer, but you can't call the Jarl to task on it.

Going to Windhelm felt like I was back in Morrowind again, albeit on a much more simplified scale. :P

[SirKicksalot]

I thought about how much better New Vegas handles choice and dialogue too.
But then I remembered I broke the main quest by making choices that lead to a dialogue loop and I can't progress any further.

I wish Skyrim had Obsidian-quality writing and choices, though. My main objective in Skyrim is to siege dungeons. I ignore many people that seem to be quest givers because frankly I don't care about their whining (I'm aware I'll miss potentially interesting stuff). However I stumbled across some really retarded design decisions - for example, there's a person that thought I'm the assassin he invoked through a ritual. I chose to be silent and hear what he has to say - and then the assassination mission was activated. I didn't want that! I'm very frustrated by these linear conversations.
Or a quest involving forged letters and a pretty girl. It forced a really dumb conclusion on me. At least give me an option to cancel the quest!

[soldant]

At least give me an option to cancel the quest!
You don't have to do the quest, they just show up under Misc objectives and can be toggled on or off.

[Anthile]

I was disappointed about Maven as well - when I found out my character couldn't marry her.

[Nalano]

for example, there's a person that thought I'm the assassin he invoked through a ritual. I chose to be silent and hear what he has to say - and then the assassination mission was activated. I didn't want that!

Press E to spank child.

[BobsLawnService]

I hear a lot of complaints about the thieves guild and while I haven't gotten around to it I'm surprised. It sounds like Skyrim portrays the thieves guild as a violent, organised crime syndicate. I quite like the idea of Bethesda not sugarcoating things. This whole cuddly, family friendly portrayal of criminal gangs in games is a little too sachharine for my tastes.

[gundrea]

I'm surprised that the characters in a Bethesda game managed to provoke such a strong reaction. That there's more to the NPCs than bland go here do this means Bethesda are improving. Now they just need scripting to back up their writing.

[meloncrab]

Yeah, I really liked the way quest conversations feel. They are somewhat more dynamic, but only because they've just been too static before. Mind that I am ONLY talking about the presentation, not the choices I get to make. While the narration is not par to Obsidian, the world and its characters feel so much more alive it does not really matter to me anymore. The only thing missing now is the ability to freely move during conversation and we'd have what made Half-Life that immersive: the complete lack of cut scenes.

[squirrelfanatic]

However I stumbled across some really retarded design decisions - for example, there's a person that thought I'm the assassin he invoked through a ritual. I chose to be silent and hear what he has to say - and then the assassination mission was activated. I didn't want that! I'm very frustrated by these linear conversations.I had exactly the same experience and just couldn't believe that I was supposed to take this child seriously. To make things worse, you can actually talk to the little brat about how you think that this whole assassination thing is not a good idea - and the little boy just dismisses that with a "Yes, the person needs to die." Kid means serious business (http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/11/05). Here was a situation where I wished the game would offer me further options to choose from (like finding someone to take care of the child, maybe a priest) even if following these other paths would mean that I fail that one quest.

[JamesG]

Or a quest involving forged letters and a pretty girl. It forced a really dumb conclusion on me. At least give me an option to cancel the quest!

Gah! Yes, that one annoyed me as well, another I'm leaving unfinished. To be fair, there have been a couple of points where I've had alternative solutions present themselves, but it would be nice if they were more frequent. Don't get me wrong, I'm still enjoying the game, and think its much better than Oblivion, but it would be nice if you had a few more options in places (I know, I know, give a man a foot...). Actually, it is probably telling that I didn't have the same grumbles about Oblivion, not because the problems weren't there, but the context surrounding them was sufficiently lacking that I didn't care.

And speaking of taking miles, its not like New Vegas got off Scott free. I know with the Omertas questline, the decision making spot was right at the beginning of the questline. If you realised you got wind of what they were up to later, there was no way of rebelling on your earlier decision in a manner the game would recognise.

[SanguineAngel]

I had exactly the same experience and just couldn't believe that I was supposed to take this child seriously. To make things worse, you can actually talk to the little brat about how you think that this whole assassination thing is not a good idea - and the little boy just dismisses that with a "Yes, the person needs to die." Kid means serious business (http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/11/05). Here was a situation where I wished the game would offer me further options to choose from (like finding someone to take care of the child, maybe a priest) even if following these other paths would mean that I fail that one quest.

I ALSO had exactly the same experience, except that now I am a bit into the game and I know how it works, it's not a problem for me. If you don't want to do a quest then you just... don't do it. Simple. My character has just basically gone "yeah, kid, SUURE, I'm an assassin. Whatever gets you to stop doing this crazy stuff."

I DO think that the option to remove a quest for your log would be nice but the downside to that would be that if you change your mind about it later you'd have lost it.

Anyway, in this situation in particular I do think that Bethesda missed a trick in terms of quest resolution. IE the whole quest is designed to lead to a particular outcome whereas it should lead to that conclusion or others. It's a shame but it's not the end of the world.

[Olero]

I've been playing Skyrim for just a few hours now, but I agree on the strangely forced quests. I miss the neutral and dismissive options. Why is giving a forged letter the only option? Or are there perhaps extra options when you have a very high speech?? I haven't been to Riften yet, but I think I'll give it a miss. I may be a thief (well, my character is *cough*), but thats just my compulsive neccesity to complete my set of all the Skyrim keys available ;)

So far I've yet to encounter big bugs or CtD's (or rather give 'em a miss), but I ran into a very funny, unintended way to die. In Gerdur's house in Riverwood, there's an iron pot filled with potatoes. When you push that pot, the taters start to move as well, reached critical mass before exiting the pot and crashing into your face (you'll have to stay close to/above the pot for this to work). Death by potato, a gaming first for me :)

[BobsLawnService]

Erm, about the forged letter - you guys know that you can talk to the woman, let her know that the letter is forged and then give the letter to the other suitor thus resolving the quest differently?

[Ian]

It's a pity there's not a more "natural" way to get into the Dark Brotherhood. Pretty much the only reason one would go "Oh, okay kid. I'll do that but only because I hope it will get me to the Brotherhood." Or if they were a bit deranged, obviously. The explanation for why they approach you ("you stole our contract") is fine, but why not have this come up some other way?

It's a pity that some quests let you choose between some options (even if they're similar in some cases) but others don't. I mean, why can't I (sidequest spoiler)) warn Ogmund in Markath that the authorities are onto him about his Talos worship? Unless of when you speak to the elf in charge you can say you found nothing, but I'm assuming not.

[Jockie]

It's a pity there's not a more "natural" way to get into the Dark Brotherhood. Pretty much the only reason one would go "Oh, okay kid. I'll do that but only because I hope it will get me to the Brotherhood." Or if they were a bit deranged, obviously. The explanation for why they approach you ("you stole our contract") is fine, but why not have this come up some other way?


I was under the impression the DB contacted you if you murdered a random civilian or two, is this not the case? I was planning to murder that annoying priest guy in Whiterun specifically for this purpose.

[SanguineAngel]

I was under the impression the DB contacted you if you murdered a random civilian or two, is this not the case? I was planning to murder that annoying priest guy in Whiterun specifically for this purpose.

That would be a FAR FAR more natural way for it to happen. head hunted for your notriously cruel nature. Perhaps it can happen either way?

[JamesG]

*SPOILERS*

Erm, about the forged letter - you guys know that you can talk to the woman, let her know that the letter is forged and then give the letter to the other suitor thus resolving the quest differently?

My problem is I showed the letter to the other suitor, who gave me an alternative fake in return. Now my only choice is either passing the second fake to the woman as being genuine, or calling the second suitor out. There is no way of saying 'look both these guys are playing each other off in an attempt to get into your good books.' Basically, I'm forced to take sides when both guys are twits.

[archonsod]

Can anyone who's versed in TES lore tell me why Northern Skyrim's climate is so... odd? Why, for example, Solitude has no snow on the ground, but only a little way to the East you essentially have ice-fields that wouldn't be out of place on the Northern coasts of Norway or Finland?

Tamriel itself is supposed to be the size of the US, which would make Skyrim roughly the same size as France. Given the map in-game is supposed to represent the entire province, I'll let you work out how much distance that "little way to the East" would actually be :P


Morrowind further East wasn't snowed under in it's Northern reaches either.

Morrowind is indeed icy in it's Northern region. Recall that the entire island of Vvardenfell had several reasons to have a different climate however, not least of which was the whole thing being an active volcano.


if the climate was as it is today then it would be hard to imagine anything surviving further to the North than places like Winterhold.

Nords traditionally have always had 50% cold resistance, which you could take to indicate they're half again as good at dealing with cold conditions compared to 'regular' humans. Regular humans colonised places like Siberia and the arctic circle centuries ago.


. New Vegas already did it. Go through a number of questlines and try to think of every possible insane thing you could try, and then do it. Do it all. And watch the madmen at Obsidian account for and predict every damn one of them.

The difference is Obsidian have always done story-driven RPGs. Bethesda never has. In fact it's kinda the distinguishing feature of the TES franchise as a whole; world first and story as an after-thought. TES never allowed you to change the world, and I suspect if they tried to change that they'd face a furore from their fanbase.


I hear a lot of complaints about the thieves guild and while I haven't gotten around to it I'm surprised. It sounds like Skyrim portrays the thieves guild as a violent, organised crime syndicate. I quite like the idea of Bethesda not sugarcoating things. This whole cuddly, family friendly portrayal of criminal gangs in games is a little too sachharine for my tastes.
It still demands you try to avoid killing the mark most of the time. They've never been sugar coated though; Oblivion had the whole Grey mask sidequest thing, but that deliberately saw you occupying the boots of Tamriel's version of Robin Hood. The rest of the time they've made no bones about the Guild being involved in racketeering, extortion, black mail and even slave trading. No idea where people get the idea they weren't a bunch of violent sorts; even the descriptions of the old rogue classes made reference to them busting heads or even murdering lone travellers.


That would be a FAR FAR more natural way for it to happen. head hunted for your notriously cruel nature. Perhaps it can happen either way?
It can.

[Ian]

Ahh, as soon as the quest popped up I assume that was the only way to get in, despite remembering having to shiv some peasant in Oblivion.

Even that's a bit iffy though. I'll be killtastic in a cave full of bandits or whatever but I'm not usually quite demented enough to go around slaughtering random beggars. So yeah, it be nice if after one the numerous "go kill this murderer/bandit leader" quests (first one you do maybe? tenth one? Set sometime early on anyway) you could have somebody from the DB turn up and, for stealing their contract and then progress in the same way as it does in the game anyway.

On the bright side, the person the kid wants you to kill is scum.

[Vexing Vision]

On the bright side, the person the kid wants you to kill is scum.

Has anyone tried punching her and then showing mercy? That was my original plan, but... uh.... I accidentally might have cast Lightning Bolt from my off-hand instead of punching, so....

[SanguineAngel]

I was actually quite disappointed in the inabilty to resolve the issue any other way when I arrived at the orphanage to see what was up. I mean, I was no murderer at that point in time (circumstances may have changed slightly since my recent incarceration!) but it would have been good to attempt to run her off. Also I was surprised that you could not turn the child in to her, tell her where he was so to speak as similar options have been available in MOST of the other quests i have done where that would have been an appropriate option.

Okay not the nicest resolution but then no one says you have to be a nice guy. middle ground!

Actually now I think about it, this is the only time so far I have been really dissatisfied with a quest but I have still resolved it with myself. it could have been done better though

[Berzee]

As was mentioned by someone on the previous page though, it's true that they must be improving. Oblivion had similar problems with quests and I just didn't care enough to talk about it (although Oblivion was also better about letting you know when you were about to accept a quest, it seems). In Skyrim at least what they've created is getting to the point where I actually care enough about the fake people's stories that I would like to have a hand in them. =)

[Alez]

Didn't they learn anything from New Vegas?

Why... why... why do you never learn, Bethesda? [I]I want you to learn.

The more i played, the more i asked myself that. Why didn't they learn anything from any other game since oblivion came out? After i got tired of looking at the wonderfully crafted world(one of, if not the best i've seen in a game), i was left with doing quests. Nothing else to really do in the game but quests.
For every quest i enjoyed, there are 15 that just involve killing shit in a dungeon.

Even if i don't have choices, at least stop making quests so incompatible with each other from a roleplaying point of view.

You can do almost any quest you want(only imperial and stormcloaks seemed to lock each other out) but only in the way they want you to. So you can never have a character that solves problems in a certain way. You will have to murder people in cold blood, save people, rob people, help people and so on.
The counter argument to this is that you can just ignore the quests but THEY ARE THERE. They taunt you every time you open the journal.
You can never say "fuck you, i'm not your errand boy!", instead only leaving a quest there, like i'm too lazy to finish it. Always reminding me to get that bastard that book from that cave, even though i gave him the SAME BOOK from another cave.

[Capt. Eduardo del Mango]

I think I'm about done with Skyrim now, 15 hours in.

The combat's dull as hell but, hey, it's an RPG with swords so it's not like I wasn't expecting that.

It's the world itself. I don't buy it. It's all... It's all a bit over the top. It's like a fifteen year old who's gotten too into Lord Of The Rings and is trying to write their own fantasy novel. All the scenery is a bit too heroic, all the quests are a bit too "epic" (had I not turned up in Skyrim to save the day the world would have ended about fifteen times that week, according to the quests I've completed), all the characters too "Oh my leige!"...

I think they've overdone it - they've tried to put too much into it. You can't walk from one village to the other without coming across fifteen camps of bandits, five people seeking vengance for dead relatives killed by evil mages, four legendary prophecies, two conspiracies that could result in the end of the world and a dragon. Visually it's similar - they've tried to cram in too many high peaks and rocky outcrops and quaint windmills and vegetable gardens and watch towers and city walls and longhouses and and and... I know fantasy worlds are supposed to be fantastic, but I do get the feeling I'm wandering around the head of a teenager who's watched the Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter series of films through one time too many.

[BobsLawnService]

Is it safe to say that the inevitable backlash has arrived?

[Giaddon]

I was actually quite disappointed in the inabilty to resolve the issue any other way when I arrived at the orphanage to see what was up.

I agree that more choice is always good, but the quest is

*very small spoiler*

set up explicitly as a way into the Dark Brotherhood,

*end spoiler*

so limiting your actions to murder makes sense in that context.

[gundrea]

Oh please, half this thread is complaining about the UI. This is like the retro future back forwardlash.

[squirrelfanatic]

I think I'm about done with Skyrim now, 15 hours in.

The combat's dull as hell but, hey, it's an RPG with swords so it's not like I wasn't expecting that.

It's the world itself. I don't buy it. It's all... It's all a bit over the top. It's like a fifteen year old who's gotten too into Lord Of The Rings and is trying to write their own fantasy novel. All the scenery is a bit too heroic, all the quests are a bit too "epic" (had I not turned up in Skyrim to save the day the world would have ended about fifteen times that week, according to the quests I've completed), all the characters too "Oh my leige!"...

I think they've overdone it - they've tried to put too much into it. You can't walk from one village to the other without coming across fifteen camps of bandits, five people seeking vengance for dead relatives killed by evil mages, four legendary prophecies, two conspiracies that could result in the end of the world and a dragon. Visually it's similar - they've tried to cram in too many high peaks and rocky outcrops and quaint windmills and vegetable gardens and watch towers and city walls and longhouses and and and... I know fantasy worlds are supposed to be fantastic, but I do get the feeling I'm wandering around the head of a teenager who's watched the Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter series of films through one time too many.I read all of these complains and understand them. Then I look at my experiences with Skyrim and am not able to make them out anywhere. Maybe I haven't seen enough of the game yet, but nowhere did I encounter armies of bandits, or piles of prophecies, or ridiculous amounts of conspiracies. I love the enemy encounters, but then I don't play a warrior but a mage with some perks in sneaking. Maybe it's just that the game is not for you.

[SanguineAngel]

I agree that more choice is always good, but the quest is

*very small spoiler*

set up explicitly as a way into the Dark Brotherhood,

*end spoiler*

so limiting your actions to murder makes sense in that context.

That's what irks me about it really. That quest is painfully obviously there explicitly for that purpose. They could have put in a bit of effort and allowed you to resolve it in a way that would not end up with their desired outcome - especially as it was, in my opinion, all too easy to walk into that quest without the intention of joining

[Berzee]

That's what irks me about it really. That quest is painfully obviously there explicitly for that purpose. They could have put in a bit of effort and allowed you to resolve it in a way that would not end up with their desired outcome - especially as it was, in my opinion, all too easy to walk into that quest without the intention of joining

Of course there's the immensely satisfying way that they let you REFUSE to join the Dark Brotherhood. I liked that bit =)

[Berzee]

By the way, Wooly Wugga Wugga -- I believe the answer to your original question is: "Yes."

[SanguineAngel]

Of course there's the immensely satisfying way that they let you REFUSE to join the Dark Brotherhood. I liked that bit =)

Hah of course I don't know about that yet because I have chosen not to persue that quest anyway.

I actually don't have a problem with accidently stumbling into the Dark Brotherhood questline, I think that's fine. It's just that it sticks out like a sore thumb that this quest is a pure mechanism, with no options presented when all the other scenarios with morally dubious routes have presented plausible options for resolving it differently or even abandoning it.

Take the Dark Brotherhood factor away from this quest (as that comes after it anyway) and it's quite poorly handled when compared to the rest of the game (that I have so far experienced).

[Nalano]

The difference is Obsidian have always done story-driven RPGs. Bethesda never has. In fact it's kinda the distinguishing feature of the TES franchise as a whole; world first and story as an after-thought. TES never allowed you to change the world, and I suspect if they tried to change that they'd face a furore from their fanbase.

Not according to that Bethesda love poem (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?2148-Dear-Bethesda...-%28Spoilers-re.-Skyrim%29) somebody wrote. Some of 'em actually think this is the pinnacle of story writing.

[Batolemaeus]

Not according to that Bethesda love poem (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?2148-Dear-Bethesda...-%28Spoilers-re.-Skyrim%29) somebody wrote. Some of 'em actually think this is the pinnacle of story writing.

Then again, some people think Twilight is the pinnacle of story writing.

[Berzee]

Also, based on my recent wanderings through the cyber-space, did you know that an awful lot of people have written their own lyrics for the Morrowind theme song?

This has been a weird day.

[Tei]

WhAt aBOut that mod that was porting morrowind to the oblivion engine? Will it run on skyrim?

[Unaco]

I doubt it.

[Alez]

WhAt aBOut that mod that was porting morrowind to the oblivion engine? Will it run on skyrim?

WHAT? There is such a thing? Has anyone tried it out? Is it as broken as i imagine taking a buggy game and inserting it into a buggy game would be?

From their FAQ:
» Last time I checked in on the project, it was a mess and nothing worked. What's changed?

Today, Morroblivion is a fully playable, working game world. Quests, NPCs, creatures, items, and graphical features all have been painstakingly converted, upgraded and/or created by hand to bring a true-to-the-original experience that takes advantage of many of Oblivion's advanced features.


So does this mean it's got the complete game in it? I'm really hoping for some feedback guys. Maybe i will actually finish the main quest this time.

[Nalano]

Then again, some people think Twilight is the pinnacle of story writing.

*cry*

/10char

[Berzee]

Morroblivion looks nifty!

On a totally different note, does anyone find it odd that Dunmer males in Skyrim have mostly got australian-y accents? I like the voice actor, but it's funny. =P

[Fiyenyaa]

On a totally different note, does anyone find it odd that Dunmer males in Skyrim have mostly got australian-y accents? I like the voice actor, but it's funny. =P

I think it's supposed to be cockney. It makes me cringe every time I hear it.

[Drake Sigar]

Maybe they should have tried Welsh. It worked out well for Fable 3, Dragon Age 2, and The Witcher 2.

[SirKicksalot]

There's one aspect of the combat I don't understand. Sometimes the enemies kneel down and say something along the lines of "I can't face you anymore". But after a few seconds they get up and resume the fight.
Does that happen when they have no more stamina/mana? Is there a way to stop them from resuming fight without killing them?

[Nalano]

Maybe they should have tried Welsh. It worked out well for Fable 3, Dragon Age 2, and The Witcher 2.

You seem to expect an American company to be able to distinguish British accents.

When has that ever happened?

[Alez]

I also don't understand why enemies do that. One moment they say "i yield", after they get up they start insulting me and fighting again.
It's funny how my companion always kills enemies that kneel down but when THEY kneel down, the filthy low life bandits show their inner gentlemen by not hitting them until they get up.

[Vexing Vision]

Not according to that Bethesda love poem (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?2148-Dear-Bethesda...-%28Spoilers-re.-Skyrim%29) somebody wrote. Some of 'em actually think this is the pinnacle of story writing.

I actually think it's the pinnacle of background-story writing. I love wondering around Skyrim because I am still in love with the entire Elder Scrolls background lore, and Tamriel is a fantastically fleshed-out world to live in, which continues to be the main draw.

Then again, I've also run several pen&paper-sessions based on Tamriel with other lore-geeks, so I'm more than a bit biased.

[Nalano]

I actually think it's the pinnacle of background-story writing. I love wondering around Skyrim because I am still in love with the entire Elder Scrolls background lore, and Tamriel is a fantastically fleshed-out world to live in, which continues to be the main draw.

Then again, I've also run several pen&paper-sessions based on Tamriel with other lore-geeks, so I'm more than a bit biased.

I was always a bit more egotistical than that: In RPGs, history begins when I show up.

Well, not entirely. I appreciate picking up written vignettes as much as the next guy, but first I have to want to care about whomever or whatever I'm interacting with. Whenever I've done roleplaying sessions with other people, I hated those that relied on backstories that read like small treatises peppered with purple prose and would then act antisocial when you actually met their characters. It's possibly the most passive aggressive way to roleplay: When I meet you, I don't care that you were molested as a child and were raised by wolves. I care about how you're acting now.

In a sense, I've felt the same way about TES games. I've never gotten into the ES universe because it seems to exist almost entirely in the small library of essays you can collect - each of which, in my humble opinion, evince execrably dull writing, devoid of humor or drama. Meanwhile, I'm in love with games that are notoriously tight-lipped about backstory but give you very unique worlds that make you want to dig deeper: STALKER, Witcher, the Void... in fact, eastern Europeans in general. The last TES game that made me feel that "this is a place worth delving into" was Morrowind, and mainly because it was visibly alien and unique.

Long story short, Show > Tell.

[Vexing Vision]

Hehe, I understand where you're coming from - thankfully there's a lot of games catering to a lot of different tastes. I agree that some books are extraordinarily dull. Then again, so's plenty of History books in our current world.

I recommend hunting down The Real Barenziah, which is an 8 volume collection that's been around since Morrowind and is exceptionally well-written about a cast of very interesting politically ambitious characters.

Ever since meeting him in Daggerfall, I've also been a huge fan of the Underking - a necromancer who trains necromancy to protect the world from a greater evil is just something that appeals to me. I don't want to be that guy, but I want to play in a world populated (or historically populated) by these NPCs.

I don't think I'd have enjoyed the Witcher series as much as I did if I hadn't read the books first. So, for lore-fanatics like me, TES will always be the Holy Grail of world-building.

(I do enjoy Dwarf Fortress' approach to world-building a lot, too, though.)

[Wizardry]

I recommend hunting down The Real Barenziah, which is an 8 volume collection that's been around since Morrowind and is exceptionally well-written about a cast of very interesting politically ambitious characters.
Wrong. The Real Barenziah first appeared in Daggerfall as a 10 volume book. Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim contain a 5 volume version of it, which is in fact slightly longer, but with sexual content removed/censored.

[Keep]

I was always a bit more egotistical than that: In RPGs, history begins when I show up.

Well, not entirely. I appreciate picking up written vignettes as much as the next guy, but first I have to want to care about whomever or whatever I'm interacting with.

I think the way to do history well is to make it affect the listener. "Why can't we take a short cut through this province? Because it's at war with my home town? Well why's that? Because two centuries ago some wizard tricked our people into..." and away they'll go, wanting to learn all about it.

If you can't tie it back to yourself and your own needs, then history can sound at worst boring, at best arbitrary. But once that connection's been made, backstory and treatises are no obstacle to enjoyment - in fact they advance it.

Skyrim's problem (a lot of history buffs' problem) is they assume that connection is apparent, and so history is intrinsically interesting. Unless you're also a history buff, it's not. It's an obstacle.

Show > Tell. Also, know your audience.

[Nalano]

Skyrim's problem (a lot of history buffs' problem) is they assume that connection is apparent, and so history is intrinsically interesting.

You make a very good point, tho in my opinion, RL history is intrinsically interesting because it actually happened and the world we actually live in was actually shaped by it. Actually.

Hell, all fiction is based off of our impressions of RL history. But I do get your point.

[Skalpadda]

I feel the back story in Skyrim is handled fairly well. You can puzzle an awful lot together just by exploring the surroundings and paying attention to things like the architecture of the different areas and races, or you'll come across little notes and journals that usually have a direct relation to what you're doing or tell the mini-story of the dungeon you're exploring. Then if something interests you, you can read a book about it. Not that I think reading books in a computer game is a great way of telling a story but at least it solves the problem of having a huge back story without shoving it in the player's face whether they care or not.

On the other hand, if you don't care, you're perfectly free to ignore everything but your own character's personal story of having crazy Indiana Jones adventures in old ruins and ancient tombs.

[Lacero]

Edit: What he said ^^^^ I wrote slowly.

I love the story in these games. Mostly I love delving into old ruins and just seeing how things are laid out. Like, we have dwemer structures with stone beds and things now. The design of all the places shows clearly they were built with rock first and the pipes added later.

Why do the constructs have soul gems if they're not used to power them? Are the soul gems the dwemer themselves??
Why did they enslave the snow elves, were they really just cruel for the sake of it? Why do this when they could make such wonderful machines?

I mean the non-dwemer stuff is cool too I just love the mystery of it all. And best of all, unlike Lost or something, it doesn't actually feel random and I don't mind if we never actually know enough to be sure. History is like that.

[DigitalSignalX]

I also love the lore, and spend a great deal of time just exploring documents and the scenic vignettes that tell their own stories. The arrangements of some scenes is just as compelling as any found in Fallout. Each installment has gotten closer and close to revealing the fate of the Dwarves, this one is no different.

[pakoito]

Quest stuck, can't be fixed with console commands. Bye bye Skyrim. See you in a couple of months.

I didn't read the thread because major SPOILERS everywhere. But the level design and some of the smart stuff is taken from straight the best Oblivion mods, it is not a bad thing just...I've seen it! And this! Nehrim did it!

[outoffeelinsobad]

I found the College of Winterhold last night. Totally geeked out and went to the library to read all of the books. Oh, that Sheogorath!

[soldant]

I also love the lore, and spend a great deal of time just exploring documents and the scenic vignettes that tell their own stories.
Same here. I can't sit through all the books because some of them just talk about things I really couldn't care less about, but others flesh out the world at large and make the game feel like it's part of a much larger gameworld with things having a reason for being the way they are. I like the way they're written "in universe" as opposed to being little more than a codex or Wikipedia version of the game's lore.

[GraveyardJimmy]

You seem to expect an American company to be able to distinguish British accents.

When has that ever happened?

Just dont let them know that the Welsh accent is hugely diverse, even in an area as small as about 30 miles.

[Ian]

Bought the house in Riften last night and then spent 20 minutes filling the weapon racks/displays and the armor displays.

There's dragons to be killed and gold to be had and I'm decorating.

[Drake Sigar]

Just dont let them know that the Welsh accent is hugely diverse, even in an area as small as about 30 miles.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5QAZPctnXk

[Wolfenswan]

Bought the house in Riften last night and then spent 20 minutes filling the weapon racks/displays and the armor displays.

There's dragons to be killed and gold to be had and I'm decorating.

wish I had your problems. I traveled back to riverwood for a quest; level 40s, dragon armor, giant battleaxe and all that stuff. Now the first person to approach me is a kid, asking me to play hide and seek and fetch with her. Naturally, I was game.

[Ian]

Also meant to say I'd finished the Thieves Guild. I enjoyed it but it seems to peak a bit early. Quite an anti-climax compared to how I remember the same Guild questline in Oblivion.

Spoilers, obviously.
The Twilight Sepulchre's just a bit rubbish, innit? I thought there would be more to The Pilgrim's Path. It was only when I'd finished it I realised that that was what I was doing. I'm not sure how they'd have worked it as a sequence of events, but it feels a bit like that should've been used to start setting things up for the grand finale of hunting down Mercer Fray in the dwarven ruin. Somehow get the Skeleton Key before killing him, return it and then have Nocturnal tell you to go find him and finish the job.

In Oblivion you do the massive job to steal an Elder Scroll and then that winds down a bit quicker into getting the Cowl, the Fox telling you who he is, etc.

This just felt like a much longer wind-down because the Twilight Sepulchre is so damned easy.

EDIT:

wish to had your problems. I traveled back to riverwood for a quest; level 40s, dragon armor, giant battleaxe and all that stuff. Now the first person to approach me is a kid, asking me to play hide and seek and fetch with her. Naturally, I was game.

:D

"Aren't you the Dragonborn?"
"Well yes I am."
"So what the hell are you doing in my cupboard?"
"Hiding. Duhh."

[Drake Sigar]

Quick, someone lend me twenty five grand, I need to buy the mansion in Solitude.

[Ian]

Was looking at the house list earlier. I don't have access to buying the Solitude house yet, but if I did I could buy it and all the furnishings and still have over 10k to spare. And that's having just bought and kitted out the one in Riften as well.

Funny to think at one point I was struggling to justify buying a horse.

I reckon the Solitude house is the one I want next though. The Markath one looks a bit dingy (if good as a lair) and the Windhelm one (spoilers!) is a bit creepy, having been the scene of serial killings...

[Capt. Eduardo del Mango]

I read all of these complains and understand them. Then I look at my experiences with Skyrim and am not able to make them out anywhere... Maybe it's just that the game is not for you.

You're right, I'm not a big one for 'fantasy' as a whole. I'm sure if the game were overdone with tropes from a genre I did like I probably wouldn't mind. But as far as I can make out my reaction to it isn't a very broadly represented one, so I figured I may as well post it...

[squirrelfanatic]

But as far as I can make out my reaction to it isn't a very broadly represented one, so I figured I may as well post it...My intent was not to criticise your personal and subjective impression (is that even possible?), I was just surprised that you experienced the tropes present in the game as so dominantly, because I didn't feel like they were. Since you mentioned it, it really is a shame that there are so few examples of other genres (not game genres but thematic genres) presented in a way similar to the TES games. I guess the Fantasy setting is just very popular.

[Alez]

How can people play this game on a console without....the console commands? I had to use them twice in the main quest to be able to advance and once to restore my follower. The follower wasn't just lost, it didn't exist anymore, player.moveto moved me to a spot that didn't have them there. Amusing is that the main quest broke the follower.

Fucking beta testers, how do they work?

[Drake Sigar]

What annoys me is the game hardly ever lets me feel like I can deviate from the main story. You escape from Helgan and are told to contact the Jarl right away, who then tells you to grab some ancient tablet as soon as possible. Then he tells you to contact the Greybeards immediately. It just goes on like this. More breaks please. Couldn't he say "Hmm, I will speak with my advisers on these dragon attacks, we might have some work for you later if you're interested."

[PeopleLikeFrank]

What annoys me is the game hardly ever lets me feel like I can deviate from the main story. You escape from Helgan and are told to contact the Jarl right away, who then tells you to grab some ancient tablet as soon as possible. Then he tells you to contact the Greybeards immediately. It just goes on like this. More breaks please. Couldn't he say "Hmm, I will speak with my advisers on these dragon attacks, we might have some work for you later if you're interested."

My solution to this was to not contact the Jarl right away. ;) I'm very early on in the game, mind, as I was out of town for a week when it first came out. I've seemed to never have had a problem ignoring the main quests though - my first Oblivion character pretty much chucked the amulet of kings in the river upon stepping out of the sewers. (Actually, I generally mean to get around to it at some point, but it just never seems to happen.)

Still it is a problem with the way the narratives tend to be constructed. If the quest is epic and urgent and world-saving, then you shouldn't have any time to wander off. A little time for the higher-ups to plan, sure, but in a game like Skyrim, you're likely to wander off and become king of the vampires in the meantime, returning weeks later.

[Pijama]

Man, I have been trying to get an idea for a character but have no idea which skills to prioritize or such.

Your average dragonslayer with magic would go with what? Any help is much appreciated. :D

[SanguineAngel]

My solution to this was to not contact the Jarl right away. ;) I'm very early on in the game, mind, as I was out of town for a week when it first came out. I've seemed to never have had a problem ignoring the main quests though - my first Oblivion character pretty much chucked the amulet of kings in the river upon stepping out of the sewers. (Actually, I generally mean to get around to it at some point, but it just never seems to happen.)

Still it is a problem with the way the narratives tend to be constructed. If the quest is epic and urgent and world-saving, then you shouldn't have any time to wander off. A little time for the higher-ups to plan, sure, but in a game like Skyrim, you're likely to wander off and become king of the vampires in the meantime, returning weeks later.

This has always bugged me in all sandboxy games. It's so unnecessay too! It must be blindingly obvious that implied urgency is going to be completely impotent when placed in an environment that actively encourages the player to do their own thing.

Being told that you have to be somewhere right away, "before it's too late!" and then arriving days, weeks, months or even years game time later only to find you are "Just in the nick of time" is completely ridiculous.

Two things have always struck me as the most natural of solutions:

1. If you must have these urgent missions/quests make them actively time sensitive. Preferably with fail states if you don't make it (rather then simply game over)

2. Don't constantly claim that everything is mega urgent. The fantasy genre in particular must be an ideal setting for this. In a land devoid of modern technology, most major events would naturally take days/weeks/months/years to occur. Getting messages to people would involve substantial lengths of time anyway. moving armies would take longer. the pace of life in general would just be slower. There's nothing wrong with Drake Sigar's suggestion. It makes total sense.

The only RPG i can think of that has EVER handled this well is fallout and it's 200 day deadline. You knew you had 200 days, the mission was important but not necessarily all that urgent. But it still had a deadline and the closer you got to that the more urgent it became.

[SanguineAngel]

Man, I have been trying to get an idea for a character but have no idea which skills to prioritize or such.

Your average dragonslayer with magic would go with what? Any help is much appreciated. :D

Dunno if it'll help but i just let my character evolve naturally. I had an idea of the type of person he was - an opportunistic thief and reacted to situations as i blieved he would. Consequently I am currently working for some seriously dodgy and threatening people, ruining livelihoods against my better judgement and have just committed my first real murder - out of necessity - and am discovering quite the yellow streak! Sneaking into tombs and lifting loot. Archery and sneak are proving ideal, hiding behind a shield and luring enemies into traps and what have you.

FUN!

[Vexing Vision]

Playing Wizardry here for a second, Exile 3 had an interactive deadline. If you took too long, towns and villages would actually be destroyed by the growing monster hordes. This gave a real, tangible sense of urgency which was very nice, without giving specific deadlines. It was still able to complete the game, but some sidequests actually stopped working by the destroyed villages.

I don't think Avernum 3 had this.

[SanguineAngel]

That sounds properly exciting, Vexing Vision. I have not played that game but I like that idea. The game world actually changes due to your inaction.

It just goes to prove that it's possible really.

[PeopleLikeFrank]

Two things have always struck me as the most natural of solutions:

1. If you must have these urgent missions/quests make them actively time sensitive. Preferably with fail states if you don't make it (rather then simply game over)

2. Don't constantly claim that everything is mega urgent. The fantasy genre in particular must be an ideal setting for this. In a land devoid of modern technology, most major events would naturally take days/weeks/months/years to occur. Getting messages to people would involve substantial lengths of time anyway. moving armies would take longer. the pace of life in general would just be slower. There's nothing wrong with Drake Sigar's suggestion. It makes total sense.

Yeah, agreed on both counts. I really wish games would let you fail more often in general. Gamers these days really are treated like delicate little flowers.

On the second point, I'd even extend it to have fewer crises of world-shattering importance. It's perfectly possible to get caught up in a more localized drama, and I think a tighter focus would benefit a lot of these writers. I think it may be one of the reasons I tend to be more drawn to the side quests & guild type stuff in TES games. I'm also still flabbergasted by how awful the story in Starcraft II was, and how it's a little tragic that a good part of the reason for that is how they went from a B-grade but perfectly serviceable tale of struggle for power in the local galactic sector to HAVING TO STOP THE IMMINENT DOOM OF EVERYTHING, EVERYWHERE! (Again!) (No really.) (We mean it this time!)

[Nalano]

Fallout - the original - had a deadline of 99 days. But that was so much time that so long as you didn't faff about, you could do everything with plenty of time to spare.

Personally, I don't particularly like the whole "OMG the world is ending go go GO" aspect within a "no, really, go out and explore; pick up all the sidequests and delve into the crafting" game. Do you want me to play your game or not?

[Drake Sigar]

My solution to this was to not contact the Jarl right away. ;) I'm very early on in the game, mind, as I was out of town for a week when it first came out. I've seemed to never have had a problem ignoring the main quests though - my first Oblivion character pretty much chucked the amulet of kings in the river upon stepping out of the sewers. (Actually, I generally mean to get around to it at some point, but it just never seems to happen.)

Still it is a problem with the way the narratives tend to be constructed. If the quest is epic and urgent and world-saving, then you shouldn't have any time to wander off. A little time for the higher-ups to plan, sure, but in a game like Skyrim, you're likely to wander off and become king of the vampires in the meantime, returning weeks later.

I don't want the world around me to stop and start at my convenience. Well, actually in this case I kinda do, it's just that I want the world to be coy about it. Like Sanguine said, barging into the Jarl's hall to deliver an essential item he asked for six months ago without a word on his part requires a trained suspension of disbelief unique to the video game industry. It's hard enough maintaining the illusion when quest arrows point to the specific NPC you have to meet with no asking around required (You're Maven? Oh! What a coincidence, I was just looking for you and you were the first person I happened to talk to. That's been happening a lot lately...).

Also, we need to bring back food and water stats.

[Ian]

I think in that situation I'm happy to pretend there's stuff going on that I don't need to see.

If the alternative is going around town asking everybody if they're NPC X (or if they know exactly where NPC X is at this moment in time, obviously.)

Some of the stuff that they make sound urgent and then don't care when I spend a week working on blacksmithing I subconsciously (at first, anyway) justify in my own head. It doesn't excuse it not being handled better by the developers, but given the world was essentially waiting for you to rock up anyway (because of THE PROPHECY or whatever) it feels like my own justifications work.

"Well sure the dragon appearances don't seem to be building to anything. They're not all just going to turn up at once!"
....
"If you think about it it makes sense that I'm working my way through Dark Brotherhood rather than finding out why the hell I have a unique set of powers. Need to train myself up in various things to take every future possibility into account right? And I suspect in this war against men and dragons knowing how to kill folks will be handy."
.....

"Well for fuck's sake, why WOULDN'T I join a band of thieves? I mean, what if I have to get into a dragon's house to-... yeah okay, maybe this one doesn't work."

[SanguineAngel]

I think in that situation I'm happy to pretend there's stuff going on that I don't need to see.

If the alternative is going around town asking everybody if they're NPC X (or if they know exactly where NPC X is at this moment in time, obviously.)

Some of the stuff that they make sound urgent and then don't care when I spend a week working on blacksmithing I subconsciously (at first, anyway) justify in my own head. It doesn't excuse it not being handled better by the developers, but given the world was essentially waiting for you to rock up anyway (because of THE PROPHECY or whatever) it feels like my own justifications work.

"Well sure the dragon appearances don't seem to be building to anything. They're not all just going to turn up at once!"
....
"If you think about it it makes sense that I'm working my way through Dark Brotherhood rather than finding out why the hell I have a unique set of powers. Need to train myself up in various things to take every future possibility into account right? And I suspect in this war against men and dragons knowing how to kill folks will be handy."
.....

"Well for fuck's sake, why WOULDN'T I join a band of thieves? I mean, what if I have to get into a dragon's house to-... yeah okay, maybe this one doesn't work."

Hah that's where my character's devil may care attitude really comes in handy. This rebel dude tells me I need to report this to the jarl for the good of Skyrim (the very first thing you have to do in the Main quest line) and my guy is basically "yeh, alright mate, whatever. Good luck with that."

Now I can justify doing whatever I like because I actually actively dismissed the treat out of hand. bloody fuss over nothing innit?

[Theblazeuk]

I've had 2 horses now, the one from Whiterun and one from Marketh, and both were terrible sissies, running away at every opportunity should a fight happen near them. Curious where everyone is getting their tough-guy horses from??

Mine was the one from Whiterun. This one I got from Solitude isn't so gung-ho... From what I gather though there is an extremely badass one you get from some quest or other. Yet to find it though!

[eRa]

Mine was the one from Whiterun. This one I got from Solitude isn't so gung-ho... From what I gather though there is an extremely badass one you get from some quest or other. Yet to find it though!

I guess you mean Shadowmere, which is a reward from a Dark Brotherhood quest. It's even the same horse which you could get in Oblivion. Must be some kind of vampire horse, it's eyes are glowing red.

[Drake Sigar]

I think in that situation I'm happy to pretend there's stuff going on that I don't need to see.

If the alternative is going around town asking everybody if they're NPC X (or if they know exactly where NPC X is at this moment in time, obviously.)
That was but one example of game mechanics tailored for convenience rather than immersion. There are many different degrees, and it's up to the individual to decide what goes too far. How about the courier quests in Dragon Age 2 where you pick a random object off the ground and psychically know who it belongs to?

[Ian]

Isn't the badass one the one from Dark Brotherhood? Anyway, from what I've seen it seems that the difference in horse behaviour is whether something attacks me or attacks the horse. If I get off the horse to attack a dragon and the dragon randomly blasts it with frost or fire it'll fuck off. If I jump off the horse and a bear attacks me the horse will normally join in.

I could be wide of the mark, and I'm not actually convinced it's even as consistent as that.


Hah that's where my character's devil may care attitude really comes in handy. This rebel dude tells me I need to report this to the jarl for the good of Skyrim (the very first thing you have to do in the Main quest line) and my guy is basically "yeh, alright mate, whatever. Good luck with that."

Wandering off to do your own thing before the main quest does anything makes sense to me.

"I know the authorities just tried to behead you and all that, but go meet this other authority member!"
"Yeah, okay mate, I'll totally do that." *rolls eyes*

[DigitalSignalX]

DX:HR had a couple of moments where events unfolded differently if you diddled around some instead of adhering to the NPC's "It's important you get there now!!!" dialog we're all used to. That came as a unexpected, delightful surprise. In Skyrim there doesn't seem to be any of that unfortunately, but I have noticed random events do happen outside the players purview: namely some bandits attacked a fort that was occupied by imperials, two dragon attacks so far seemed to have been dealt with by some giants/mammoths and also by some town guards/civilians. My char wasn't anywhere near for either, and only found the evidence of the events later.

[Lacero]

Now I can justify doing whatever I like because I actually actively dismissed the treat out of hand. bloody fuss over nothing innit?

I think I was too busy looking at stuff in wonder at the start to even notice I was told to report to the Jarl. I remember being told Riverrun was the nearest village and to talk to his friend the blacksmith. And I thought, "I don't know where riverrun is but I'm going the other direction".

And I walked in an almost straight line to riverun..despite having the compass and quest makrers turned off.
So I ignored the blacksmith and helped out some folk who had a nifty golden claw stolen....
Then later I was wandering around and I ended up in whiterun and spoke to the jarl. I casually mention that a few weeks ago I saw a dragon, and then all hell breaks lose.

Now I'm studiously ignoring High Hrothgar.

[Lacero]

DX:HR had a couple of moments where events unfolded differently if you diddled around some instead of adhering to the NPC's "It's important you get there now!!!" dialog we're all used to. That came as a unexpected, delightful surprise.

Best thing in a wonderful game. All those hostages died and it was my fault for trying to break into every office in the building I was supposed to be security head for.

[DigitalSignalX]

Found this today, VERY interesting bit of news about Skyrim - the devs threw in extra accessible landmass for Cyrodiil and Morrowind, and all the other provinces. No one knows yet if it's just thank you candy for modders or space for DLC.

http://ppsh-41.tumblr.com/post/13145143504/entire-tamriel-landmass-built-into-skyrim

[Wizardry]

Found this today, VERY interesting bit of news about Skyrim - the devs threw in extra accessible landmass for Cyrodiil and Morrowind, and all the other provinces. No one knows yet if it's just thank you candy for modders or space for DLC.

http://ppsh-41.tumblr.com/post/13145143504/entire-tamriel-landmass-built-into-skyrim
Have you heard of a website called Rock Paper Shotgun?

[SanguineAngel]

I think I was too busy looking at stuff in wonder at the start to even notice I was told to report to the Jarl. I remember being told Riverrun was the nearest village and to talk to his friend the blacksmith. And I thought, "I don't know where riverrun is but I'm going the other direction".

And I walked in an almost straight line to riverun..despite having the compass and quest makrers turned off.
So I ignored the blacksmith and helped out some folk who had a nifty golden claw stolen....
Then later I was wandering around and I ended up in whiterun and spoke to the jarl. I casually mention that a few weeks ago I saw a dragon, and then all hell breaks lose.

Now I'm studiously ignoring High Hrothgar.

Your story makes me smile. I imagine you wandering around with kender like disregard for the gravity of your situation and still somehow ending up in the centre on it all. Far more innocent a tale than my own!

[DigitalSignalX]

Have you heard of a website called Rock Paper Shotgun?

Ya, I read it every day. Except the one day they posted about this story I guess, there's a whole page of articles there I somehow missed. Probably too busy playing Skyrim.

[Wulf]

Oh dear. More disappointment.

I just don't understand this, I really don't. Why did they have to ruin the art design of some of their best stuff, just to make it more typical and less interesting? The dwemer stuff in particular. Apparently it was too high-tech and exotic for them, so they toned it down, and the end result is simply... boring. This makes me sad, because the dwemer stuff in Morrowind was amazing. I heard mention that the dwemer constructs were back in Skyrim, but...

This is an original dwemer sphere (http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/beast_morrowind_centurionsphere.png).
And this is what they look like in Skyrim (http://images.wikia.com/elderscrolls/images/3/33/Sphere.jpg).

It seems that they toned the high tech nature of it down, but the worst offence of it all is the head. The original constructs actually had sensory apparatus on their head, so you could tell how they parsed the world around them. They actually had video cameras. But this new version just looks like a slightly odd suit of armour stuffed into a ball. What I just don't understand is why they couldn't preserve the art style. Why did they have to piss all over it so much?

Here's a modern redo of the dwemer sphere, I can't help but wish they looked like that because it is so much better (http://pnmedia.gamespy.com/planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/fms/images/potd/13415/1255641511_medium.jpg).

Sure, it could possibly use more detail, but it's definitely going in more the right direction than where Skyrim went with them. And even more sadly, the ruins seem to be toned down to be as pedestrian as possible too, unless they're hiding stuff from me. They took dungeons that felt like they were mechanically alive, and they replaced them with boring stone structures lined with some gold/brass. It's just not very inspiring to look at. It's much like the rest of the game. The dwemer ruins in Morrowind had their own visual personality, their own identity, these don't.

Let me show you.

These are the dwemer ruins as they are in Morrowind, all brass and quite high-tech (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MDqP0vFlAbQ#t=21s).
And this is Skyrim (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3_wVAgH_URI#t=60s)...

As you can see, they went from a more high-tech approach, everything metal, lots of moving parts, to only using moving parts for the traps. In Skyrim, there's so much stone that I can't really tell it from the Akaviri ruins or the other dungeons in the game, they all sort of melt into one whole. There's a hell of a lot of verisimilitude, there. But I think a lot of that verisimilitude, in this case, comes from just how much they toned down the very high-tech nature of the dwemer dungeons and constructions.

One example would be how the dwemer construct 'archers' in Morrowind pretty much had gun arms, but when we see them in Skyrim they have crossbow arms.

I suppose you could say that this is a really, really old ruin, much, much older than the ruins that were in Morrowind, and thus lacking in the latest dwemer tech. That is a valid excuse. But it just makes me sad that the art design suffered. I mean, surely they could have had an earlier era of dwemer technology without completely defying what the dwemer were about? It just seems like this isn't really dwemer stuff in Skyrim, it lacks the feel, the atmosphere, and the personality of the dwemer.

And I am disappointed. It's stuff like this... I just don't get. Why scrap an incredible design from a previous game, just to go with a much more boring and entirely average design for a sequel? Why would you do that?

Sigh.

Oh well, I know that modders will likely fix this by restoring the constructs to their former glory with models closer to the originals, at least, but it would be too much work to restore the dungeons, so I can't ever see that happening. And that is a damn shame. Bah. If they were going to do this to the dwemer, I just wish they hadn't included them in the first place.

[SirKicksalot]

The original dwemer sphere looks like a Star Wars prequel droid. The Skyrim sphere looks like a creepy Metropolis-style automaton. As for the ruins, I like the steampunk look. I can't choose between ruins, but the constructs - there's no contest IMO.

[Zaboomafoozarg]

LOL Wulf, you're stuck in 2002 more than just about anyone I know.


Oh dear. More disappointment.

It must be crushing your very soul by now.

[Nalano]

LOL Wulf, you're stuck in 2002 more than just about anyone I know.

Of all the years to be stuck in, that's a particularly crappy one.

[JackShandy]

You have such weird problems with skyrim, wulf. The difference to me is that Skyrim's dwarf-robots show evidence of culture - the carvings and patterns over their bodies, along with the face, indicate that this was something a craftsman with his own specific art style spent time constructing. From that you can tell it would have been used for propaganda as much as killing dudes, an expression of dwarven art as much as power. Morrowind's sphere has a kind of triangle symbol on his head, but other than that it's just made out of iron sheets bolted together, purely functional. You have to wonder why they even bothered giving it a head shape.

[Wulf]

@SirKicksalot

You're completely entitled to your opinion, of course.

I differ, however, and I'll come back to why in more detail in my reply to JackShandy below. But in general, I'm glad they look the way you described, because they're supposed to look like mass produced steampunk automata, but on the more technological end of steampunk, where they're becoming more industrial and they're valuing more pragmatic designs over more stylised ones. So you have this minimalist, yet stylised approach that looks something like what you'd get if you mixed '50s/'60s Mod fashion with robots.

It's a very streamlined, functional look. It's designed to look like it has working parts only, with no extraneous bells and/or whistles. That's what the original constructs looked like, to me. And as to the why of the importance of that... I'll come back to that in my reply to JackShandy.

@JackShandy

I don't think they're that weird, really. They're aristic. I'm very inclined that way, if you haven't noticed, and I'm a very visual and philosophical person. The problem is, anyway, is that what you've said there defies the dwemer and their lore. They weren't big into individuality, and the reason they became so scary is because they were legion when developing their machinery. They seemed to have little interest other than evolving their technology.

The minimalist and pragmatic approach to the original dwemer spheres fit that, if you think about it. They wanted something that worked, something that was functional, not something that was especially beautiful. And everything about their way of building, their architecture, and their constructs showed that, but that same minimalism actually gave it a personality of its own in and of itself. See, in a world like this, you have so many artisans working on things individually that you're used to seeing ornate things crowding up the place. The dwemer constructions were a stark contrast to that, they were industrial.

The reason that the dwemer robot didn't have intricate carvings all over it is the same reason that the vast majority of cars don't have intricate spraypaint work all over them. It was just a defence drone, that was all, and they were mass-produced, and when a better version came along, they were scrapped and those were mass-produced instead, all of this is implied through Morrowind that they had a strongly industrial culture, and that each dwemer 'ruin' was actually a factory. You could see this in all the active machinery, and the pits of molten metal. These weren't places for living, these were places for building.

That gave the dwemer a distinct cultural feel from the akiviri. It was a great artistic style, because it was something that was so alien to fantasy as a whole, you could see the beginnings of an industrial revolution, and surrounding that was the mysteries of why the dwemer suddenly disappeared just after the beginnings of their industrial revolution. It was truly evocative.

But in Skyrim they went with making the dwemer like the akiviri. Now, the akiviri were a peoples who did enjoy doing ornamental stuff, as you see in a certain temple in Skyrim (I won't spoil it if you haven't seen it), and you get from the notebooks and such that the akiviri prided themselves on that. But when you enter a dwemer ruin, it's got akiviri all over it, but there's no in-game lore reason for that, so what's happened is that the cultural identity of the dwemer has been sacrificed and left to rot.

Sure, I suppose to the everyday onlooker the whole ornamental thing is nice, but where the dwemer and the akiviri were once visually culturally distinct, they no longer are. And as an artistic person I find that galling. I could have worked with a group of artists to update the look of the dwemer, to make them look all HD and high fidelity, without sacrificing their cultural personality. I don't understand why bethesda chose their route, that's all, because it's just... irritating. The dwemer were so distinct, and now they're so indistinct, artistically speaking, and that's... just disappointing.

Maybe you need to be an artistic person to understand? I don't know.

@Zaboomafoozarg

Do some gamers have to be so 4Chan, really... ? I just don't understand the desire to troll a person for writing a well thought out post on a topic that they're passionate about. I don't get that. I just don't. Perhaps this is why I'm so bitter at gamers, I never get them, and attitudes like this just completely escape me.

---

Also, jackShandy, you may be underestimating just how much I loved the dwemer ruins in Morrowind, and the extent to which I valued their willingness to bring something new to fantasy. (That being industry, and as I mentioned, an almost Mod-like streamlined fashion to their construction. It really stood out. I can't think of one single other game that has anything like it. That's the thing. It has such a potent identity.)

I guess what I'm getting at is that it wasn't all "Oh look, it's fantasy, so therefore it must be ornate and have little intricate designs all over it. It has to look like someone went mad with a hammer and chisel all over it because it's FANTASY." crap. Everyone does that. Everyone. Yet Morrowind had these dwemer ruins that didn't do that. The dwemer had a style that was all their own and like nothing I'd ever seen. Seeing Skyrim ditch that for "EVERYTHING, ORNATE CARVINGS ON EVERYTHING!" was just really disappointing to me.

And I can't understand why they did it, unless they really believe that everything in a fantasy setting must be all ornate, intricate, and what have you, with no other styles involved. See, if it's all like that, it all melts into one, and there's no real individuality for anyone in the game. It all looks the same. Dwemer looks the same as akiviri, akiviri looks the same as other forms of ancient mer, those look like the nordic halls of the dead, and it becomes so samey.

I'll wrap up by saying that I was looking forward to the first dwemer ruin. I wanted Bethesda to use that to impress me. "We took the dwemer and made them even more interesting!" That's what I wanted to see. I wanted there to be dungeons that I'd revel going into. And... it was instead "We took the dwemer and made them the same as everything else, so that we could reuse art assets."

It was just a let down.

[Nalano]

The minimalist and pragmatic approach to the original dwemer spheres fit that, if you think about it. They wanted something that worked, something that was functional, not something that was especially beautiful. And everything about their way of building, their architecture, and their constructs showed that, but that same minimalism actually gave it a personality of its own in and of itself. See, in a world like this, you have so many artisans working on things individually that you're used to seeing ornate things crowding up the place. The dwemer constructions were a stark contrast to that, they were industrial.

The reason that the dwemer robot didn't have intricate carvings all over it is the same reason that the vast majority of cars don't have intricate spraypaint work all over them. It was just a defence drone, that was all, and they were mass-produced, and when a better version came along, they were scrapped and those were mass-produced instead, all of this is implied through Morrowind that they had a strongly industrial culture, and that each dwemer 'ruin' was actually a factory. You could see this in all the active machinery, and the pits of molten metal. These weren't places for living, these were places for building.

That gave the dwemer a distinct cultural feel from the akiviri. It was a great artistic style, because it was something that was so alien to fantasy as a whole, you could see the beginnings of an industrial revolution, and surrounding that was the mysteries of why the dwemer suddenly disappeared just after the beginnings of their industrial revolution. It was truly evocative.

But in Skyrim they went with making the dwemer like the akiviri. Now, the akiviri were a peoples who did enjoy doing ornamental stuff, as you see in a certain temple in Skyrim (I won't spoil it if you haven't seen it), and you get from the notebooks and such that the akiviri prided themselves on that. But when you enter a dwemer ruin, it's got akiviri all over it, but there's no in-game lore reason for that, so what's happened is that the cultural identity of the dwemer has been sacrificed and left to rot.

Sure, I suppose to the everyday onlooker the whole ornamental thing is nice, but where the dwemer and the akiviri were once visually culturally distinct, they no longer are. And as an artistic person I find that galling. I could have worked with a group of artists to update the look of the dwemer, to make them look all HD and high fidelity, without sacrificing their cultural personality. I don't understand why bethesda chose their route, that's all, because it's just... irritating. The dwemer were so distinct, and now they're so indistinct, artistically speaking, and that's... just disappointing.

If some cataclysm destroyed American society today, followed by a couple millenia of decay, future archaeologists would find very few actual manufacturing centers for what was an "industrialized" nation.

Furthermore, the mass-produced junk would probably be the first to fall apart and rot away, leaving an odd and somewhat lopsided vision of what American life was like.

[Questionable]

And I can't understand why they did it, unless they really believe that everything in a fantasy setting must be all ornate, intricate, and what have you, with no other styles involved. See, if it's all like that, it all melts into one, and there's no real individuality for anyone in the game. It all looks the same. Dwemer looks the same as akiviri, akiviri looks the same as other forms of ancient mer, those look like the nordic halls of the dead, and it becomes so samey.

I'll wrap up by saying that I was looking forward to the first dwemer ruin. I wanted Bethesda to use that to impress me. "We took the dwemer and made them even more interesting!" That's what I wanted to see. I wanted there to be dungeons that I'd revel going into. And... it was instead "We took the dwemer and made them the same as everything else, so that we could reuse art assets."

It was just a let down.

Wulf, I'm not set on changing your mind about how the dwemer should have been portrayed, but I think it's important to look at the fact that the three Elder Scrolls game I've played (Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim) have all changed the basic flavor of the world. They are not (and, I believe, they are not meant to be) thematically consistent game to game, for all that they use the same mythology and place names.

Morrowind seems to me to have a lot in common with some pretty cool modern fantasy authors -China Mieville springs to mind- and the art direction and design was very weird, very fantastical, throughout the game. It wasn't just the Dwemer that stood out as "wow, that's not Tolkien". Oblivion was designed to move back towards a more mainstream medieval (boring) fantasy setting. Instead of Morrowind's ecclectic mix of weird stuff influenced by different cultures and time periods, Nirn was europe, in the fantasy middle ages (even the Empire was deromanized). And for Skyrim, the setting is northern europe, circa 400AD. No matter that the lore CLAIMS the game takes place centuries after Oblivion, they've set the clock back. Roman empire is losing control, there's Vikings and (what I think are) picts, even a religious aspect ("this god you've been worshipping isn't any more") that reminds me somewhat of christian conversion.

But what I think is important in relation to why the dwemer have changed: It's not just the region where the game is set that gets changed game to game; the design team seem to decide on a flavor for the region, and then that shapes the incarnation of Nirn for that game. Thus, the Dwemer have been vikingized so that they fit with the general viking (actually, more like goth?) setting.

So: that's what I think. Again: this is speculation about why they made this choice, not a condemnation of anyone's taste.

Edit: I seem to have insulted some kinds of fantasy and praised others despite claiming to not be attacking anyone's personal taste. When I refer to a certain kind of fantasy as boring, that's entirely subjective, don't take it personally.

[Anthile]

Well, there's the archaeology joke that when future generations will excavate our buildings and look at our public restrooms they will say "Fascinating, they had different bathrooms for priests and regular people!". It's funny because that's how archaeology works.

[JackShandy]

The reason that the dwemer robot didn't have intricate carvings all over it is the same reason that the vast majority of cars don't have intricate spraypaint work all over them. It was just a defence drone, that was all.

Yes. Both approaches show a distinct culture, obviously. I prefer Skyrim's portrayal of the Golems as Very Important Cultural Artifacts, rather than mass-produced game enemies. I dislike the idea that I am fighting a dime-a-dozen mass-produced piece of junk.

[Fiyenyaa]

It's entirely possible for advanced enough manufacturing processes to mass-produce ornate things.

[Drake Sigar]

Maybe I'm imprinting my own ideas about the Dwemer here, but I always thought they were a race obsessed with artistry to the point where it became an integral part of their daily lives. The thought of them mass-producing machines designed solely to be simple and functional is somewhat depressing.

[Vexing Vision]

Different Dwemer-clans had different art-styles. If anyone remembers Redguard, it featured some amazing Dwemer-ruins which had a very different style from both Morrowind and Skyrim - more playful, a lot more ornated, focussing on spheres and moving parts.

[BobsLawnService]

Your story makes me smile. I imagine you wandering around with kender like disregard for the gravity of your situation and still somehow ending up in the centre on it all. Far more innocent a tale than my own!

I found Bethesda pretty sneaky about subconsciously guiding you to where you're supposed to be.

[Ian]

The idea of the dwemer command deciding that they were going to ally cosmetic intricacy with mass production and functionality makes sense to me. Basically as willy-waving, as evidence of their superiority over other races. "Look at us, we're creating huge quantities of art that you can barely create one at a time. Oh, and it's also going to kill your pathetic inferior face lolz."

[Unaco]

We get it Wulf... Nothing Bethesda do will make you happy. Hell, if they'd used the same Dwemer drones as in Morrowind, you'd probably complain that they hadn't changed them, and these Skyrim based Dwemer would be different, and their drones should be different. What do you expect though Wulf? Cubicles!! It's a boring, bland game, made by boring, bland people remember. What were you expecting?

And you seem to be reading an awful lot into a game that, to you, is just "Herp Dragons, bang a buxom wench". Maybe you're expending too much cerebral energy on something designed in an office with cubicles that's meant to be generic wish fulfilment for knuckle dragging Neanderthals.

[Alez]

Regarding the chance of art style, i can't say i noticed it and i'm not bothered by it.
Maybe that's how they always wanted to show the dwemer but the limitations back then forced them to have less detail?
Or maybe lack of limitation now caused them to go nuts with the ornaments, i don't know, i'm good either way.

Wasn't there a book in the game that said dwemer had certain themes they had to build by? That could explain the difference in art style.
Not only from a lazy game design of "we didn't care enough to make it look the same" but also because they were in too different regions, so the dwemer in skyrim might have had a slightly different mentality. Like the bosmer are different from aldmeri or something.



I'll wrap up by saying that I was looking forward to the first dwemer ruin. I wanted Bethesda to use that to impress me. "We took the dwemer and made them even more interesting!" That's what I wanted to see. I wanted there to be dungeons that I'd revel going into.
I was bored with all the dwemer ruins until i entered Blackreach. That made the dwemer much more interesting to me.

That thing impressed me enough that it's actually the only dungeon to which i returned to after the quest that took me there was done, just to explore more, to wander. It showed me that dwemer can create beautiful things too but they hid them deep underground, away from their "industrial" and practical things near the surface.

The only thing that bothers me is those falmer. I could have enjoyed a contrast of high technology integrated with these low intellect creatures but it doesn't show that. Only a few tents here and there, that's all the extent to which the falmer integrated themselves into the dwemer ruins. There is no specific reason for them being there. It would have made as much sence to have mudgrabs inhabit them.

[BobsLawnService]

Also - see the intricate carvings and artistic design of pommels on swords throughout various cultures.

[Ian]

The only thing that bothers me is those falmer. I could have enjoyed a contrast of high technology integrated with these low intellect creatures but it doesn't show that. Only a few tents here and there, that's all the extent to which the falmer integrated themselves into the dwemer ruins. There is no specific reason for them being there. It would have made as much sence to have mudgrabs inhabit them.

By the time the Dwemer fucked off the Falmer were probably past the point where they could work it out, assuming that the Dwemer had them only for menial stuff and hard labour and never showed them the workings of the technology. Obviously the player sees some pretty basic stuff (switches open doors and activate some traps, big whoop) but presumably the ruins are otherwise much more sophisticated and all the Falmer could really learn how to do in the state they'd reached was not get killed by what the Dwemer had left behind.

[Alez]

I never even thought the falmer being around with the dwemer. I guess that would explain why they aren't killed by the robots and traps. Well, unless i'm there to make them walk towards me. Then they forget all about the big ass pressure plate on the ground in the ruins that they supposedly inhabit every day.

But still they made no connection between the 2 races that i could see. They are in EVERY dwemer ruin i've come across so the developers are telling us that there is one.