Shall we talk about Skyrim?

[mrpier]

There is some lore that says the dwemer enslaved the falmer after the falmer retreat from the surface, and then they rebelled against the dwemer after a while, starting a war that only stopped when the dwemer did their mysterious disappearance.

[Theblazeuk]

I prefer the newer Dwemer Spheres. However much you try and dress up your opinion as an objective argument that the boxy camera bits look better, it's nothing more than an opinion. Personally I thought the cameras looked dumb, it was the big sphere that was the cool part.

That said I agree that the Dwemer RUins in morrowind were largely more interesting - but I feel the lore kind of supports that. The Dwemer were largely based in Vvardenfell, right? The roman ruins in England are way less ornate and interesting than those you find in Italy...

Looking through I think I'm (and we to an extent) a bit dismissive of Wulf's criticisms because he heaps them on so much and with such little acknowledgement of what does work and is good - well, at least any acknowledgement not attached to a sneery disclaimer. Some of the comments are valid but its impossible to see them as anything but ardant pessimism and fanatical dissatisfaction in light of the consistent theme seen here.

[Zaboomafoozarg]

@Zaboomafoozarg

Do some gamers have to be so 4Chan, really... ? I just don't understand the desire to troll a person for writing a well thought out post on a topic that they're passionate about. I don't get that. I just don't. Perhaps this is why I'm so bitter at gamers, I never get them, and attitudes like this just completely escape me.

After the 9000th "well thought out post" on the same topic (but with varying degrees of disappointment, indignation and rage), it tends to wear on most people who read said posts.

So they changed the look and feel of the Dwemer artifacts. So what? The theme of this place and time in the TES world is different than that of all the previous games. If Bethesda tweaks some aspects of the world to fit with that theme (and also to take advantage of technological enhancements since 2002), more power to them. It makes this part of the world feel more unique compared to the others and more consistent with itself.

[Ian]

Alez: What mrpier said. Can't remember if I picked it up from quest text or an in-game book but the Falmer are in the state they're in because of the Dwemer.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Falmer#History

If you can't be arsed with the whole lot, the bits relevant to what we're talking about starts around the fifth paragraph.

[SanguineAngel]

Looking through I think I'm (and we to an extent) a bit dismissive of Wulf's criticisms because he heaps them on so much and with such little acknowledgement of what does work and is good - well, at least any acknowledgement not attached to a sneery disclaimer. Some of the comments are valid but its impossible to see them as anything but ardant pessimism and fanatical dissatisfaction in light of the consistent theme seen here.

yeah that's pretty much spot on. I like Wulf's posts. No one could say he's not passionate but he's also prone to overdramatisation which can be a bit blinding.

To be honest, I often find myself agreeing with the majority of his points and when I do not, I can almost always see where he is coming from. There's a lot of negativity in recent posts though, Wulf! I am sure I remember you being a lot more positive originally? I used to agree with your happy points of view frequently too!

EDIT: Oh I really should say I can see exactly what you are saying in this instance, Wulf and perhaps even agree in part but for my money the issue is very minor and it has not even remotely dampened my enjoyment.

I don't think it's a result of your being Artisitc, as I am also - as are many of the people who are loving this game. I suspect it's just simply a case of personal taste.

[Ian]

And because of his "but I suppose I would think that because I'm not stupid/bereft of imagination" bullshit. People can get on with other people they frequently disagree with, but it's the putting-down of people who like the things he doesn't that understandably grates on folks.

[Wizardry]

"but I suppose I would think that because I'm not stupid/bereft of imagination"
He said that? Bloody hell! I think Wulf is the one bereft of an imagination if he needs a fancy art style and an alien looking world to immerse him in a game. Let's see if Wulf has an imagination after playing a wireframe dungeon crawler.

[Berzee]

"It's important you get there now!!!" dialog...in Skyrim there doesn't seem to be any of that unfortunately

I thought so too, and then I went to Markarth.

[GothicEmperor]

Different Dwemer-clans had different art-styles. If anyone remembers Redguard, it featured some amazing Dwemer-ruins which had a very different style from both Morrowind and Skyrim - more playful, a lot more ornated, focussing on spheres and moving parts.
That's actually adressed in one of the in-game books. I think one of Calcelmo's books, though I'm not completely sure.

[Ian]

He said that? Bloody hell! I think Wulf is the one bereft of an imagination if he needs a fancy art style and an alien looking world to immerse him in a game. Let's see if Wulf has an imagination after playing a wireframe dungeon crawler.

It's a cheap exaggeration in terms of the wording but, yes. He has on numerous occasions basically said people are calling him out because people will play anything/don't know any better/don't have the imagination to see how simply GHASTLY everything that's Guild Wars or Morrowind is.

[Lacero]

There is some lore that says the dwemer enslaved the falmer after the falmer retreat from the surface, and then they rebelled against the dwemer after a while, starting a war that only stopped when the dwemer did their mysterious disappearance.

I might be over thinking all this, but I treat all the books and things in elder scrolls games as very unreliable narrators. Still thinking through the glyphs on the walls, I need to explore more ruins to come to an opinion.

[SirKicksalot]

Going back to the art debate, I wish modern TES game would return to the dirty, low fantasy look of Daggerfall. I suspect the moral brigade would bitch about scantily clad women, but come on... Not enough games have that trashy look.

On a related note, I'm confused as to why TES doesn't feature more combat gore. I think one of the skill trees promises decapitation at some point, but they can do better than that. I was expecting that after Fallout 3 TES will feature plenty of limbs being lost. There was an awesome mod for Oblivion that made people explode, removed flesh from the bones and added relatively realistic blood (arrows to the jugular being a highlight). Coupled with a nude mod it created a real horrorshow! You can find plenty of gore just lying around in Skyrim, why can't you directly create some too?

Imagine Skyrim with the Dead Island gore system :(

[Wizardry]

Going back to the art debate, I wish modern TES game would return to the dirty, low fantasy look of Daggerfall. I suspect the moral brigade would bitch about scantily clad women, but come on... Not enough games have that trashy look.
I read somewhere that Bethesda banned someone from their forum for posting a link to a website featuring Daggerfall sprites due to the nudity.

[DigitalSignalX]

"It's important you get there now!!!" dialog...in Skyrim there doesn't seem to be any of that unfortunately


I thought so too, and then I went to Markarth.

Wait.. what? I've been to Markarth. What quest has different outcomes based on time? If it's possible to answer without spoilers!

[CWalker]

So far, I'm loving Skyrim to bits. Everything about it feels just so, and fighting a dragon then having a giant and a few mammoths running in to back you up never gets old.
Only major complaint so far is that the end of the main quest is a bit...underwhelming, given the build up to it.

Otherwise, it gets 2 thumbs up and my own personal "Hurrah!"

[Drake Sigar]

I tried to break the game by joining the Stormcloaks and removing the Jarl of Whiterun from power before completing his dragon tablet quest, but Bethesda had it covered. When you deliver the axe he says "I need to think about it. Don't you have a dragon tablet to collect in the meantime, bitch?"

[Berzee]

Wait.. what? I've been to Markarth. What quest has different outcomes based on time? If it's possible to answer without spoilers!

As soon as you set foot in the city you have a chance to make a difference. =) I only know because I quickloaded to make sure, and was happily surprised to find that not everything is so predestined as Roggvir.

(doesn't really affect things long-term, but neither did the hostage thing in DX...still, it was really satisfying to find out that there's value in thinking on your feet ^_^ maybe it helps your subsequent investigations as well).

[DigitalSignalX]

As soon as you set foot in the city you have a chance to make a difference. =)

oh wow. I will definitely try that on my next character. I have wondered the very same thing about events that happen first time you enter Solitude - if you could intervene and prevent what happens. I never actually tried it though, presuming it was all scripted.

Still, this re-affirms my argument - Skyrim is much better then FO:Vegas at immersion in terms of the game world responding to your decisions.

[JackShandy]

oh wow. I will definitely try that on my next character. I have wondered the very same thing about events that happen first time you enter Solitude - if you could intervene and prevent what happens. I never actually tried it though, presuming it was all scripted.

Digital, don't bother trying to change Solitude. I slowed time and sniped the three dudes on Roggvirs podium with paralysis arrows, then fought off every guard in the city when they came swarming up; used the Ritual Stone power to resurrect everyone in the area so that I had a zombie horde, and we all held off everyone and saved Roggvir, killing just about everyone in the city.

Anyway, after all that, Roggvir got up from his hiding place and slowly walked back through the city towards the podium. When he got to the executioners block, he just keeled over and died.

You can lead a horse to water...

[SirKicksalot]

I tried to pickpocket some blacksmith apprentice in Riverrun while he was having lunch. He caught me, attacked me and I killed him, which triggered every guard in the hold to attack me. I barely escaped the city.
I think it was stupid how the guards entered the house right after I killed the dude :/ l'll just pretend I made a lot of noise. I killed those guards, which automatically raised my bounty. There's a 7000 gold bounty on my head now.

[Nalano]

I tried to pickpocket some blacksmith apprentice in Riverrun while he was having lunch. He caught me, attacked me and I killed him, which triggered every guard in the hold to attack me. I barely escaped the city.
I think it was stupid how the guards entered the house right after I killed the dude :/ l'll just pretend I made a lot of noise. I killed those guards, which automatically raised my bounty. There's a 7000 gold bounty on my head now.

Some nobleman on a horse sallied by while I was fighting a Blood Dragon on the way to Markath. He got caught in the fire, panicked, and died. I killed the dragon and thought nothing more of it.

An hour later, a bounty hunter caught up with me, declaring that I had to pay $2400 as I was responsible for the death of that nobleman. What in the fuck.

[The Innocent]

Some nobleman on a horse sallied by while I was fighting a Blood Dragon on the way to Markath. He got caught in the fire, panicked, and died. I killed the dragon and thought nothing more of it.

An hour later, a bounty hunter caught up with me, declaring that I had to pay $2400 as I was responsible for the death of that nobleman. What in the fuck.

Now, that's lifelike.

I didn't even know there was a bounty system. My character doesn't live on the edge, I guess.

[Nalano]

Now, that's lifelike.

A witness-less non-crime becomes known via osmosis, and news travels faster than I can run to the nearest town?

[SirKicksalot]

Blame the wizards.

[DigitalSignalX]

lifelike in that the nobleman's wife is holding you accountable in the Skyrim equivalent of civil court or something (= Everyone's sue happy, even in games.

[The Innocent]

I'd think that if a joyriding nobleman went missing and a scruffy adventurer was the only one rumored to be in the nearby wilderness, a bounty would be placed right away. The lack of witnesses actually works against you.

Though yes, maybe they found out rather quickly.

[Anthile]

Actually, your bounty is removed if you kill every last witness.

[Nalano]

I'd think that if a joyriding nobleman went missing and a scruffy adventurer was the only one rumored to be in the nearby wilderness, a bounty would be placed right away. The lack of witnesses actually works against you.

I was fighting a goddamn dragon. If you could see me, you couldn't miss the goddamn dragon, and chances are, if you could see the goddamn dragon, you'd be running the fuck away from it lest it breathe fire on you. Consequently, that's exactly what happened.

Hell, the very last thing you should be doing if the person actually fighting said dragon does not die to said dragon is punish him for killing it. Swear to god, heroes get no respect. No respect at all.

[Unaco]

'Elf and Safety gone mad?

[Vexing Vision]

Okay, so I am fairly far progressed through the stories and combed through most of the cities with the exception of Falkreath and Markath (where I only found myself very briefly), so... where and how do you get married? (IN THE GAME THANK YOU.)

[JackShandy]

The Temple of Mara in Riften.

[Alez]

Actually, your bounty is removed if you kill every last witness.

That's a bit screwy thanks to the essential characters. I went on many killing sprees only because i wanted that 40 gold bounty removed. It went up to 7000 because i couldn't kill those 3 bastards kneeling down.

Oh and companions love to screw you on this thing as well. I was doing a kill contract on some guy in a city and figured i could spare the 1000 gold. I kill my target, guard comes up to me to ask me how i wanna settle things. During this time, my companion starts murdering left and right because the stupid thing won't pause during conversations.

I swear, i haven't had ONE good moment in this new system of not pausing during conversations, way more immersion breaking that it helped me with it. It just doesn't work if things are happening around you but you are unable to take any action.

[psyk]

No one has thought to press TAB while in a convo then? doubt it would fix the above but it would stop you dying.

Pretty sure it even says "tab exit" in the bottom right of the screen

[Drake Sigar]

Okay, so I am fairly far progressed through the stories and combed through most of the cities with the exception of Falkreath and Markath (where I only found myself very briefly), so... where and how do you get married? (IN THE GAME THANK YOU.)
It all goes down in Riften. There's a priest who frequents the Bee and Barb tavern who'll sell you an amulet (you have to be inquisitive) which will tell the people of Skyrim there's fresh buns on the market. All the info you need is here (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Marriage), including the candidates for marriage.

[Wulf]

I'm still pleased that I married a perma-werewolf thanks to HAX. I was the first to do that and no one else will likely try that or anything like it for months to come.

So, anyway, I was almost impressed by Skyrim last night. Almost. Gods damn it, Bethesda.

Do I really need to say that this is going to be riddled with spoilers? Yes? Okay, this is going to be riddled with spoilers. Spoilers relating to Windhelm. As I was marginally impressed by the investigation of a certain murder, and then... disappointed by the end of it. Okay, so you're investing this 'Butcher' character, that's pretty neat, following the blood trail without any markers or guidance took me aback, because that's sooo un-Bethesda, and I approved. It all went well.

Then, after I had the murderer apprehended, I went to tell the lady who was so terrified of this murderer that she was hanging up warning notices about him all over town. What do I get? She yells "WHAT DO YOU WANT?!" at me in a very annoyed way. And she's forgotten that this murderer even exists. Is it too much to expect closure on this? To be able to tell someone that they can rest easy and that they don't need to hang up notices anymore? Did Bethesda not anticipate that anyone would want to do that?

That's the wall I keep coming up against: Bethesda didn't anticipate anyone would want to do X or Y, which seem so normal to me, and thus it all comes off feeling a little half-arsed.

To be honest, at this point, if I think of Skyrim as a linear, limited action adventure game, I can kind of enjoy it. I just need to never think of it as an RPG, because whenever I do that I think of New Vegas, which didn't half arse anything, which wasn't linear in any regard, which allowed me to make my own choices and had consequences for just about every damn thing I could think of. Skyrim is a different beast than that. It's an action adventure. I don't know whether this has anything to do with it being a console game, but it is distinctly an action adventure.

It just makes more sense when I think of it that way.

And when they're expecting me to rush from one quest to the next like a mad wanderer without bothering to smell the roses, as though I were playing some fantasy version of GTA, then it clicks as to what they were trying to do. But it's every time I stop and examine the environment that I'm falling apart, or any time that I wish to impose my will and desires upon the game. I'm sure that some will call that unfair, but New Vegas did allowed for it at every turn. New Vegas is an RPG.

I suppose that's what most people want, these days, is an action adventure.

And Skyrim really isn't a bad action adventure. It's got good mechanics, it's got the odd interesting quest, the setting is a bit boring and schizophrenic but okay, it's actually fun, granted. It's just not a good RPG, or an RPG at all. I just need to accept that and move on, because when I realise that, I stop feeling the need to complain so much. But if this is the direction that Bethesda are going in, much like Bioware seem to be as well, then they need to rebrand away from RPG to action adventure. It's only fitting.

And whilst I like Skyrim, I still find myself looking forward to Obsidian's next RPG. And I can't apologise for that, because I'm a fan of wat they do, I've been rarely engrossed by a game as much as I was with New Vegas, and that's what I expect from an RPG: An interesting world, choices, consequences, permanent and visible changes, and closure.

All too often I'll wonder why I can't say what I want in a conversation, or why an NPC doesn't recognise what I just did, or even a city, and then I'll remind myself that it's an action adventure and I'm not supposed to be looking for/at these things.

Skyrim does many things well. It's got some great combat and action, it's got loads of content, it's got some really interesting looking places, and it has some beautiful caves and traps. And it's very fast paced. Skyrim is at its best when you're rushing around like a chicken with your head cut off and you never stop to inspect what you've just done, or think about what you could have done instead.

[Vexing Vision]

SPOILERS FOR WULF:

The closure is yet to come. Didn't this seem awfully convenient.


[/SPOILER]


Cheers for the Riften hint! I took a single look at the city, talked with a couple of people there and then decided rather quickly to let them all die in dragonfire on their own.

[Zaboomafoozarg]

I play Skyrim like a rail shooter.

[Unaco]

I'm still pleased that I married a perma-werewolf thanks to HAX. I was the first to do that and no one else will likely try that or anything like it for months to come.

Pffft... Seen that on the first day. Know loads of people that did it.

[SirKicksalot]

Alchemy question: does anyone know what exactly Ravage Health/Stamina/Magicka is? Does it lower the health pool, for example? I can't figure out any difference between Ravage and Damage. When I apply it to myself it acts like a lingering poison.

[DigitalSignalX]

SPOILERS FOR WULF:
The closure is yet to come. Didn't this seem awfully convenient.
[/SPOILER]
Cheers for the Riften hint! I took a single look at the city, talked with a couple of people there and then decided rather quickly to let them all die in dragonfire on their own.


Indeed, wait a few days and come back to town. It will make more sense.

[The Innocent]

Ravage versus Damage: I think instead of damaging HP, it lowers HP cap for a while. But I'm not 100% sure on that.

[Serenegoose]

I'd love to talk about my continuing adventures in skyrim but the launcher launches the launcher at the moment and none of the internet's fixes are helping.

[DigitalSignalX]

I'd love to talk about my continuing adventures in skyrim but the launcher launches the launcher at the moment and none of the internet's fixes are helping. Does the main TESV.exe work?

[Serenegoose]

Does the main TESV.exe work?

I fixed it. Or rather, I spammed 'verify cache' about 15,000 times and then eventually steam deigned to allow me a file to download and the game ran.

[Berzee]

I play Skyrim like a rail shooter.

Is that where you following the most recent Map Arrow where'er it leads, switching if you get a new one, until eventually the game is complete?

(If your quest log ever sits empty, you could just run in a straight line to the edge of the world, I suppose...and then restart because your campaign was glitched)

[Drake Sigar]

I felt genuinely bad for a character named Cicero in the Dark Brotherhood. Minor spoilers below:

You can sift through early journals in his room to find he was once a brilliant assassin. He wanted so badly to be The Listener, and if you confront him with this he confirms it and implies that The Mother's deafening silence gradually drove him batty. I mention this because I didn't expect to like him, especially after the first impressions.

[Wulf]

Okay, time to talk about some of the things I have really enjoyed in Skyrim.

Dungeons & Traps

Those outdoor-which-are-actually-indoor dungeons? Beautiful. I love those. I could use more of those, really. And the traps have been particularly interesting to look at, and it's always nice to encounter one that I haven't seen before. They're a massive step up over what was in Oblivion, and sometimes they even catch me off-guard when I'm in the middle of a fight.

Combatants Fight Other Things

The suicidal wildlife is still there (sigh) but there are some improvements, at least. It's nice to see a bandit fighting a dwemer construct rather than having them both forget they hate each other to charge me in unison (something that happened a lot in Oblivion). It give sme faith that the AI can be further improved upon, and that there are levels of complexity there that the game only rarely uses, something that can be tapped by modders to better effect.

Paarthurnax

He sounds old, he's not trying to kill me, he's far too charismatic for his own good, and he's a lovable old bastard. If I can help him and say "To hell with the Blades!", then I'll be happy. If that can happen then I'll actually start liking this game. I mean, if I can forge some kind of peace between some of the dragons, thanks to at least one of them not being completely insane without a good reason, then... yanno, I may actually start to respect Skyrim, and not grudgingly.

Paarthurnax is a hint that there may be more layers to this than "DRAGUNS R BE EBIL, U BE FIGHTIN' THEMZ!" which is utterly depressing. It pleases the typical, low brow gamer that I have a low opinion of, sure, but it does nothing for me. If some kind of peace can be found there without the destruction of everything coming into play, then sure.

I mean, it'd be pretty fucking hypocritical of them to wax philosophical with me about how I shouldn't be the harbinger of ultimate destruction, only to force me into it. But I think they're trying to hint at an alternative path. I've been let down in this game so far at the lack of alternative paths, I've been let down a lot. Too much. But if they get this one in, this is perhaps the most important one. I'm not getting my hopes up too much, but still...

If they manage it, I may end up liking this.

And if they wax philosophical with me about not being the harbinger of destruction and then force me into that role, I'll just end up doubly pissed off. But I'll reserve judgement, for now.

Paarthurnax, though? Definitely a step in the right direction.

I liked talking to him. Most lore-filled conversation in the game, thus far.

Werewolves

I feel they horribly half-arsed the Companions quest line, but they didn't half-arse the werewolf form. Some of the most fun I've had in Skyrim has been fear-juggling people and not killing them. I love the irony, 'kay? I like irony. And the irony of a so-called bloodthirsty beast actually not killing anyone unless he has to is pleasing. I just had to delve into one dungeon to grab an objective item, and the dungeon was filled with bandits. I came out not having killed one of them. Not one!

The fear thing is entertainingly ridiculous on so many levels. If you do it right, you can keep the entirety of Whtierun feared. ALL of Whiterun, and it gets to the point where it feels like herding sheep.

Animal Race Expressions

Didn't expect this, to be honest. The ones in Oblivion were terrible affairs, awful. Awful, awful, awful. And don't disagree or I'll link you screenshots and you will know horror. The Oblivion ones became okay visually with mods, but the expressions were still waaaay off mark. They just... didn't look right. I have a veritable zoo living with me, so I'm used to animal expressions, and Oblivion was way, way off mark. So off mark. I'm sorry but it was horrible.

Skyrim is the opposite. Skyrim's cat people actually look good and they have a proper range of expressions. The one that surprised me was running a dungeon a bit back. My Khajiit had just come out of werewolf form and he took a surprise arrow in the butt. Suffice it to say, he was NOT pleased (http://s7.postimage.org/5t1iesf21/Pissed_Khajiit.png).

I can SEE the effort there, and that means something to me. It doesn't feel like they're just throwaway, it feels like they really gave a hsit about the beast races this time. I was so convinced that the beast races would be an afterthought again, but they proved me wrong, there.

Crafting

Smithing is one of my favourite things in the game. It's already been expanded by mods so that I can smelt weapons down into their base components, and that's a good thing. I don't know why, but I like crafting. I don't like it in all games, and in some games it's just terrible, but when it's done right, I enjoy it. I did all too much crafting in Gothic, for example, with what I could. I loved the hell out of it. And I can see that Bethesda has looked at Gothic.

Frankly? Skyrim is a direct rip-off of how crafting works in Gothic. Bad thing? Hell no! Gothic had some of the best crafting that any game has had, and it only got better with each game. They took many cues from Gothic III as well, by making things like plants big, colourful, and easy to see.

Conclusion

I'm still getting an action-adventure vibe from Skyrim. There are parts of it that I distinctly dislike, and parts of it which I do like. I think that Bethesda are maybe starting to go in the right direction. It's still too much in the vein of pop culture, there's still too much "We did this because it was cool, not because it fit our game.", but it's a step in the right direction. I just wish they'd take more notes from Obsidian on how to make an RPG.

But if they at least have more than one damn ending, or more than one route to an ending, then there may be something for me to like, here. I'm a cynical person, but not unintelligently so, and never without good reason. Often my cynicism is validated and verified by games living up to the worst things about gaming. And there is a lot of that in Skyrim, I won't lie. But I'm just hoping that Bethesda has seen the light, at least a little bit, in order to understand what makes for at least a memorable game.

We'll see. It all depends on how much they plan on forcing on me, and how much I can choose for myself. This is the most vital part of any game that would call itself an RPG, for me. At the moment, it's been driving me along like a Call of Duty game would, and I don't like that, but... who knows? Like I said, they're hinting at choices, and it'll be interesting to see if they come through on it or just half-arse it.

Totally willing to give them a fair chance. Like I do with everything.

[pakoito]

I'm done with the game, I can go into skyrim discussions now. And start to rant.

I was happily enjoying the game, more than 40 hours in and then it came the big 'oh-oh'. that killed all immersion. Enemies still scale with you, bandits still have glass weapons. It came to me as I saw myself get killed by a 5k g axe some garrison leader had. Then I realized my two unique "end of big questline items" which I put several hours to get (Staff of Magnus and that three brothers amulet) were useless compared to any shit I could loot from any of the Elven Dominion guys. I have 20k gold saved waiting for something to happen, until I realized I won't be able to buy any new tier of weapons until the game tells me so. I could buy that elven sword 10 hours ago, why did you wait for me to be level whatever to sell them?

It doesn't matter what you do or what level you are, enemies will always be just a single bit ahead of you and you can face the endgame being level 10, 25 or 50 and the amount of time you'll spend killing any enemy will be the same. I can understand that the game has to sustain its pace, but doing it using numbers is just cheap.

I specced a heavy armor electric mage yet I found more DPS-reliable the unenchanted mace I've had since 10 levels before. You run out of mana or stamina but even at 0 stamina your swing damage is better than backpedaling waiting for mana. Weapons scale, weapons can be enchanted, weapons can be crafted and sharpened and highly improved by perks. Spells doesn't. Yes I can cast any of them one or two more times with more magicka, but my DPS output is the same no matter how much I level in destruction. In fact as I level my high damaging spells become worse because enemies level with me, and 50% extra damage from perks is not going to cut it on the long run. Plus shouts have most of the giggly stuff, and everyone has access to them with some Talos blessing they can nearly spam them, which renders magic useless.

Then the dungeons. The level design is worlds better than Oblivion, now dungeons tell a legit story. Creeps eat, live, die, they have its winks but in the end there's a problem. It's all hack'n'slash, and the couple of different "puzzles" are so streamlined I just solve them by brute force if I don't feel like waiting. Traps are a joke, I activate them on purpose just to check how few damage they output. Dungeon variety is based on layout, but there's clearly only three or four different tile sets and level designers did their best, which was a lot. Some places like the cities have a lot of work into them, but that's it, I could recognize the drag&drop elements from the constructor after running any dungeon type twice. I come from playing Nehrim (Oblivion mod, 4 years in development) and I never felt that even though it suffered from the same "tileset" problems.

On a positive note, I loved enchanting and armorcrafting, from which I learnt my spells were useless. Three weapons, two of them with damage/drain and the other with one second soul trap is what I'll play when I re-roll when the mods fix the game.

No word on UI bugs, the hardcoded keys explain themselves, though I liked the "Favorites" menu.
No word on console textures or glitches on PC either. I had to rollback my save a couple of times, but patches will fix that.

Conclusion:
I'll rush what's left of the main quest and I'll waiting for mods to fix the game balance a couple of years. AGAIN.

[Nalano]

To be honest, at this point, if I think of Skyrim as a linear, limited action adventure game, I can kind of enjoy it. I just need to never think of it as an RPG, because whenever I do that I think of New Vegas, which didn't half arse anything, which wasn't linear in any regard, which allowed me to make my own choices and had consequences for just about every damn thing I could think of. Skyrim is a different beast than that. It's an action adventure. I don't know whether this has anything to do with it being a console game, but it is distinctly an action adventure.

I'm constantly struck by how, aside from a couple setpieces per town, almost all of my quests are basically kill quests. It gets to the point where, if I come across a new town and chat up some of its denizens, I pile up a bunch of "clear out this bandit camp/draugr catacomb" quests in the outlying area. Sometimes I wonder how my character keeps it all in her head.

"So did you kill the Dreadlord Vasquez?"
"Was he the one with the scar on his temple?"
"No..."
"The one with the glass eye?"
"No..."
"The one with the limp?"
"Err."
"Look. I kill a lot of people. Can you narrow it down a little?"
"HE WAS BIG AND HAD SMOKING BLACK ARMOR AND KILLED MY ENTIRE VILLAGE!"
"...oh yeah. I think I remember a guy like that. Nah. Found it easier just to rob him."
"...you WHAT!?"
"Looking to buy a set of smoking black armor?"

[pakoito]

The game is clearly about killing. Hack and slash all the things and don't try to be smart about it. This is no zelda.

PS: How can you rob armor pieces without the owner noticing? videogame logic...

[JackShandy]

Wulf, would you like an editor? I'm willing to work pro bono.

[archonsod]

I'm constantly struck by how, aside from a couple setpieces per town, almost all of my quests are basically kill quests.

Think yourself lucky. All of mine are basically fetch quests. I'm starting to think I'm the first official Postlizard.

[pakoito]

Think yourself lucky. All of mine are basically fetch quests. I'm starting to think I'm the first official Postlizard.
The thing is...there's no point not to use the quicktravel system in this game for some of the most dull quests (most of them, because they all send you to right the other side of the map). Some places like High Hrotgarth are a pain in the ass to get to even after the first time. And the walking time is usually boring because the environment isn't that much handcrafted, but I'm just nitpicking a bit here.

Ok, I don't have a horse here but still. Too much rock to my taste. Oh! And who else has slipped from a mountain top into a dungeon's exit just to find it closed?

[Nalano]

Ok, I don't have a horse here but still.

Horses do not save time. Whatever time you save by riding the horse you'll lose by dismounting and remounting it every single time a wolf wants to commit suicide.

[DigitalSignalX]

Horses do not save time. Whatever time you save by riding the horse you'll lose by dismounting and remounting it every single time a wolf wants to commit suicide.

Horses do save time if you're staying on a main road going from one city to another. Just don't stop for wolves / trolls / bears / cats. I use carriage for the 1 way trip, then usually just "explore" my way back to next city. When I do use the horse, just press C for auto-run and just steer the mouse with a cup of coffee.

[Alez]

Think yourself lucky. All of mine are basically fetch quests. I'm starting to think I'm the first official Postlizard.

But aren't they all "fetch that thing from the dungeon filled with bad guys"? The only way to do it without killing is by sneaking. Sneaking in a beth game is pressing CTRL to crouch while you take the same road the mages and warriors would anyway...just slower. This ain't no Hitman, Splinter Cell or hell, even AssCreed. Maybe a better example would have been Thief but i've never really played the series.

[Nalano]

Horses do save time if you're staying on a main road going from one city to another.

If you're going from one city to another, fast-traveling is an option, rendering horses redundant. Why buy the car when taxi rides are not only faster but cheaper?

[Wulf]

But aren't they all "fetch that thing from the dungeon filled with bad guys"? The only way to do it without killing is by sneaking. Sneaking in a beth game is pressing CTRL to crouch while you take the same road the mages and warriors would anyway...just slower. This ain't no Hitman, Splinter Cell or hell, even AssCreed. Maybe a better example would have been Thief but i've never really played the series.
INCORRECT!

There is another way. The werewolf has a roar ability which is accessed by pressing Z whilst shifted, this ability has no cooldown and works over the most ridiculous range imaginable. If you're good with it (which I am), you can keep the entirety of Whiterun feared and running around. I have herded ALL of Whiterun from one end of it, to the other, and then back again.

I was actually tempted to make a video of this, but I didn't bother because I figured that no one would really be interested in seeing such a thing, that it was only of amusement to myself, and perhaps a few other likeminded folks. So eh. But yes, rarely have people felt more like sheep than then, and I was their sheepdog. Back and forth they went, back and forth, running and screaming.

And with the lesser numbers to contend with in a dungeon, it's even easier. If someone tries to attack you or gets too close, you roar. You get to your objective, you hide for a bit to let some time pass to shift back, you grab your objective, then you shift again, and run out of there roaring. It's funny, werewolves are supposed to be bloodthirsty killers, but they also provide one of the best and easiest ways to play the game whilst keeping a low kill count. I appreciate the irony.

---


Wulf, would you like an editor? I'm willing to work pro bono.

Not necessary. I say what I feel, honestly, and I don't beat around the bush. If I were to have an editor, I'd feel like I was lying, somehow. My own personal sense of honour demands that I be as honest as I can be, and that's what I always am, it's how I prefer to be. I'll always be passionate, I'll always be able to look at things from another angle, and... well, there's never going to be another Wulf.

So, for the time that I do have left, I'll continue to be myself.

(I will admit that due to one of the things I suffer and have always suffered with, I do speak inappropriately often, and I've given up trying not to. It's just not worth the effort, since everything seems to be inappropriate to someone, so I'm just not bothering. And really, like I said, I'm just going to be myself for whatever I have left. To hell with it. Like it or hate it. And if I get banned for the way I am, I'll just find somewhere else to talk.)

[Alez]

So you can roar and enemies stop attacking? Dragons don't scare them but werewolves cause city guards to cower?

I tried the werewolf form only once and thought it was useless, now i think it's shitty but at least not useless.

[Ian]

Re: the Blood on the Ice quest, I was enjoying the continuation of it right up until the thing got all bugged to hell on me. First proper bug I've run into in the game and I had to fix it in the console. :(

[Theblazeuk]

Off-topic really but the reason RPS (and any forum worth using) is an interesting place to read and post is that you're not going to get banned unless you're just pointlessly insulting people and being explicitly offensive. Being conceited ain't trolling if you truly believe it.

On-topic, I think I'm going to ditch being a werewolf. It's fun and the roar power is great but I have enough gimmicks up my sleeve (and a dark elf with extremely powerful staffs at my back) to make it generally unnecessary, even when fighting big hordes of people.

Anyone got to be a vampire yet? I got infected but decided against keeping it as early on, I didn't want to get saddled with the need to feed. Wonder what happens if you get infected before starting the werewolf quests?

[GraveyardJimmy]

INCORRECT!

There is another way. The werewolf has a roar ability which is accessed by pressing Z whilst shifted, this ability has no cooldown and works over the most ridiculous range imaginable.

One of the most enjoyable moments of skyrim so far was chasing feared people as a werewolf then seeing them run over a series of their own traps (swinging door of spikes then a bear trap), killing all of them that had been too high level for me to deal with previously.

[gundrea]

I suppose I should take back what I said about magic being useless at higher levels if only because the game's utter lack of balance makes it so.

You see my friends, you can enchant gear with fortify properties. For magic those fortify properties reduce the cost of casting a spell. More importantly these fortify properties reduce the base cost and stack together. Once you hit the crafting event horizon it is a simple matter to enchant equipment in such a way that one of your spell schools cost 100% less to cast. This means casting a spell from that school costs 0 to cast.

[Berzee]

Last night I was walking over a mountain to Whiterun and I stopped to fight a bear. I turned around and saw Talsgar the Wanderer, my previous BFF, stabbing me in the back.

I do not know what I did to anger him so, but I punched him and he ran away crying. Do you think he will like me again if I wait long enough? Or will he always be my enemy?

[pakoito]

I suppose I should take back what I said about magic being useless at higher levels if only because the game's utter lack of balance makes it so.

You see my friends, you can enchant gear with fortify properties. For magic those fortify properties reduce the cost of casting a spell. More importantly these fortify properties reduce the base cost and stack together. Once you hit the crafting event horizon it is a simple matter to enchant equipment in such a way that one of your spell schools cost 100% less to cast. This means casting a spell from that school costs 0 to cast.For the same enchanting price you an create a weapon that oneshots everything in your level.

[gundrea]

For the same enchanting price you an create a weapon that oneshots everything in your level.

Which has nothing to do with what I said instead comparing how useful magic is to weapons.

[pakoito]

Which has nothing to do with what I said instead comparing how useful magic is to weapons.In the end it boils down to DPS and bang for bucks, and weapons win that one hands-down. I made a (mixed) mage too and you can read my rant about how unuseful we are in the last page.

[Lacero]

Last night I was walking over a mountain to Whiterun and I stopped to fight a bear. I turned around and saw Talsgar the Wanderer, my previous BFF, stabbing me in the back.

I do not know what I did to anger him so, but I punched him and he ran away crying. Do you think he will like me again if I wait long enough? Or will he always be my enemy?

He did that to me too! I just left him for dead on a mountain.

[Drinking with Skeletons]

For the same enchanting price you an create a weapon that oneshots everything in your level.

But if you're a full-blown mage, you will probably have invested in other schools of magic and should have a massive pool of mana for any schools you haven't Enchanted to free magicka.

Multiple Deathlords in that room up ahead? Dual-cast Ebonyflesh while wearing only enchanted clothing (+300 armor for over a minute), conjure up a Dremora Lord, and spam your choice of Dual-Cast Incinerate, Ice Spike, or Thunderbolt to stun-lock them to death. Substitute Storm Atronachs and cleanse the room with Lightning Storm. For variety, use max-level Slow Time plus Firestorm or Ice Form plus Blizzard.

Magic isn't as powerful as max-crafted and enchanted equipment, but it's self-sufficient and very versatile, and there are plenty of ways to utilize it.

[pakoito]

I went warmage and it seems to have been a complete failure. Shock is bad (no extra perks against non-magic mobs, big magic mobs have no mana limitations, magicka damage is cut in half from Novice onwards) and defence from resto/heavy doesn't seem to cut it.

So pure mage/pure warrior with a hint of sneak is the way to go? Fine.

[Drake Sigar]

I am confused as to what my glorious leader Astrid's plan was. Spoliers below:

So she went up to the Legion, then said "I'll give you the dude who killed the Emp's cousin if you leave us alone." It makes sense in theory until you realise that in order to do this she had to admit the Brotherhood were behind the whole assassination plot, admit to Commander Maro we killed his son (actually she could neglect to mention that, but she admitted it anyway for some reason), and somehow expect this man, whose son we brutally stabbed to death in his bed, to keep his word.

Great work Astrid, makes perfect sense. Hell, she must have revealed the location of the Brotherhood sanctuary too because otherwise it surely would have been cleansed before then. She held all the chips and blew them all on a hopeless long shot.

[Hensler]

The Butcher quest in Windhelm seemed like it was going to be good... but turned out to be the worst ending I've seen for a quest yet in this game.

[Zaboomafoozarg]

Why do jarls dress up and sit around like pimps?

[Skalpadda]

Why do jarls dress up and sit around like pimps?

Because why not? :)

[gundrea]

Why do jarls dress up and sit around like pimps?

You've clearly never met a jarl in real life.

[Drake Sigar]

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh154/AEedwin/CommanderMaro.png

Idiot.

[Ian]

Why do jarls dress up and sit around like pimps?

What else are you gonna do, go out and risk getting eaten by a dragon?

Sod that for a box of soldiers. Viking pimpin' all the way.

[An Anonymous Source]

I'm surprised how much I'm enjoying a game that can be described in fairness as Oblivion 2.0 (and I disliked Oblivion a lot). It seems the fun factor might hold up for more than one playthrough, thanks to better designed dungeons in no small part.

[Anthile]

The Butcher quest in Windhelm seemed like it was going to be good... but turned out to be the worst ending I've seen for a quest yet in this game.

That quest is horribly buggy and so is the house (which is involved in the quest) you can purchase in Windhelm.

[Alez]

Just finished the Dark Brotherhood quest line, i think. I only have random assassinations now so it must be over.

Mechanical spoiler (i believe that's the term, no story spoilers)
I think other than one bandit in a dungeon and the final guy, all my contracts were solved like this:
Enter city, follow arrow to contact, murder, wait for guards, pay 1000 gold or more(depending if my companion went nuts on the city guards or not), go back to complete quest.
End of spoiler

The story was interesting, much better than the other guilds. It's just that no thought went into implementing the brotherhood into fun quests. This isn't like AssCreed(anything other than the first) where you follow your targets on the rooftops, blend in crowds, quickly stab, then have a nice guard chase, looking for a place to hide. Yeah, that game was made specially on that gameplay so it's not fair to compare but i still can't ignore how stiff and simple all the assassinations are.

Oh but Cicero is the best character in the game. He's so awesome and deranged that he seems straight out of Bioshock.

[creative42]

Oh dear. I bought and installed Skyrim yesterday. Started playing today. I thought half an hour had gone by. Nope, nearly two hours. Just as addictive as Oblivion, and I'm loving the freedom (compared with something like The Witcher 2).

The UI takes a bit of getting used to but great so far - just reached Riverwood after looting and clearing out a local mine of bandits.

[Drake Sigar]

Just finished the Dark Brotherhood quest line, i think. I only have random assassinations now so it must be over.

Mechanical spoiler (i believe that's the term, no story spoilers)
I think other than one bandit in a dungeon and the final guy, all my contracts were solved like this:
Enter city, follow arrow to contact, murder, wait for guards, pay 1000 gold or more(depending if my companion went nuts on the city guards or not), go back to complete quest.
End of spoiler

The story was interesting, much better than the other guilds. It's just that no thought went into implementing the brotherhood into fun quests. This isn't like AssCreed(anything other than the first) where you follow your targets on the rooftops, blend in crowds, quickly stab, then have a nice guard chase, looking for a place to hide. Yeah, that game was made specially on that gameplay so it's not fair to compare but i still can't ignore how stiff and simple all the assassinations are.
I think the thieves guild story is best, followed closely by Dark Brotherhood, with the Companions and College lagging behind in the distance. At least best in terms of interestingness. Bethesda don't seem to realise what we liked so much about the Dark Brotherhood from Oblivion was that many of the targets could be killed through environmental means or manipulation. In Skyrim you just knife the target in their bed, it gets tiresome after the fifth time. We need variety. Murdering people shouldn't be boring! Worse still, you actually hear your fellow Brotherhood members talk about how awesome their kills were, one even referring to a mansion quest... such a tease.

[Alez]

Oh the thieves guild is worth it then? I just stopped after getting into their secret chamber. I thought the quests will be boring fetch quests that i had enough of. I'll try to go further then.

[Kadayi]

The UI takes a bit of getting used to but great so far - just reached Riverwood after looting and clearing out a local mine of bandits.

I've been playing with a 360 controller and have found that it works well enough (though archery with a controller is balls tbh). The only thing they really need to add in is items being split into categories within your house storage spaces (that and way more bookshelves).

Also I'm struggling to get my mind around just how frikken HUGE Skyrim is, not only geographically, but also in terms of content. Sure the quality and execution leaves a lot to be desired at times (I look forward to the day we get RAGE quality characters & animations), but the amount of sheer crazy that can just spiral off simple acts is kind of mind boggling (Spoilers) I have a drinking contest with some guy called Sam (a minor side quest), wake up in a different City, witness a murder, do a load of detective work to solve said murder (whilst also ending up bludgeoning to death a man at the behest of a demon prince whilst I'm there), survive several attempts at intimidation and assassination, end up getting framed and thrown into prison, then participate in a jail break/revolution...nuts.

[Ravelle]

I have no trouble using archery with a PS3 controller, it's at least way more precise then Battlefield 3's aiming system, it's just so fun to see characters just fall like a domino piece when shot dead in one hit.

I find myself struggling with lockpicking the last couple of times, especially when you have to lock-pick a masterlock for a quest, I'm most of the time out of picks, because I haven't run in to a lot of bandits lately.

[Drake Sigar]

Trying to arrange objects around my room is driving me insane. There doesn't seem to be a simple rotate command. Dibella has taken a huge pounding *raises eyebrows promiscuously* and when I finally get her set up just right, she falls to the floor when I either load or reenter the area.

GET YER GOLDEN TITS UP ON THAT DER SHELF!

[Skalpadda]

I really enjoyed the Thieves Guild quest line overall. Setting out to complete objectives without killing anyone was a nice change of pace. Haven't found the Dark Brotherhood yet, but I think I was given a clue which I'll be investigating later.

On the UI, after getting used to it I at least find it better and faster to navigate than Oblivion. I really wish the keyboard/mouse controls were more consistent though (clicking only works some times? Oh, so I have to select the thing first.. as if I was using a controller.. bastards!). Looks like the 1.2 patch fixes some of the niggles at least :)

[Ravelle]

I'm at the end of the Dark Brotherhood quest line ( I think ) and thought it some some heavy and great story telling, if interested you'll be in for a treat ;)

It's funny, I started out with the idea of becoming a good character but suddenly turned over to the bad side because I love stabbing people, having the whole city of Markath chasing me was not so fun though. I had to escape town with about 30 guards chasing me because I coudn't bribe them or pursuade them, an other option was Jail but I wasn't in the mood for being in prison doing a prison quest and find my taken stuff, which was a lot.

[Smashbox]

Trying to arrange objects around my room is driving me insane. There doesn't seem to be a simple rotate command. Dibella has taken a huge pounding *raises eyebrows promiscuously* and when I finally get her set up just right, she falls to the floor when I either load or reenter the area.

GET YER GOLDEN TITS UP ON THAT DER SHELF!

Exact same thing happened to me. Same statue. It took forever to get it right, and BLAMMO, right on the floor when I come back. WTF

Also, I have an upside-down plate on my kitchen table and I CAN'T FIX IT!

[Drake Sigar]

Exact same thing happened to me. Same statue. It took forever to get it right, and BLAMMO, right on the floor when I come back. WTF

Also, I have an upside-down plate on my kitchen table and I CAN'T FIX IT!
It happens with pretty much everything. Items leap off of desks and shelves like you're being teased by a poltergeist. This has ruined my whole game. The Elder Scrolls series has always been a furniture-arranging simulator first and foremost.

[Drinking with Skeletons]

Trying to arrange objects around my room is driving me insane. There doesn't seem to be a simple rotate command. Dibella has taken a huge pounding *raises eyebrows promiscuously* and when I finally get her set up just right, she falls to the floor when I either load or reenter the area.

GET YER GOLDEN TITS UP ON THAT DER SHELF!

I was disappointed that there was no male-only sect for Dibella. End sex goddess discrimination!

[Drake Sigar]

Now the bug is even affecting the full-sized statues designed to hold a player's armour. Skyrim has crossed over to the Doctor Who universe.

[Smashbox]

*Dr. Whoniverse

[DigitalSignalX]

The Elder Scrolls series has always been a furniture-arranging simulator first and foremost.

Agree. I've spent many an hour arranging shit on a shelf or night table for the simple pleasure of it. Part of my mind rebels, shouting that it's a single player game, no one else will see it unless I take a screen shot of it, that it's all a pointless exercise.

I do it anyway, and I want a mod that helps you grab different points on the item collision mesh just for that reason. There's a reason why the Sims sells so many copies. People love decorating.

[Angel Dust]

I apologise in advance but I can't be arsed reading through the 68 pages of this thread to see if a consensus has been reached on this point but how is the writing and characterisation in Skyrim? I'm not expecting miracles but has it improved since Fallout 3? Is it a little bit engaging?

[perafilozof]

LOL, you people reminded me of my exploits in redecorating my home, but not in Skyrim but in Morrowind so long ago.
Because in Morrowind you could place an item on the ground while you where still in the inventory screen. Giving you the ability to precisely place any item on any surface. I guess that is one of the advantages of a game made for the PC.

There was this house I built(ok paid for some poor workers to build it for me) it had something to do with a House of ''some dudes'' chain quest that gives you the chance to get a new house built in the middle of nowhere. Ok, maybe it was close to some village, but in Morrowind everything was far, no fast travelling... ah the good old days of Mark and Recall spell....

Anyway my point: First floor as you go through the door on the floor you would see armor sets, ALL of them, nicely set up.
Helmet, below it chest(cuirass),
on the side of it left and right pauldrons(shoulder protection),
then left and right gauntlets(for the hands) on the side of chest,
then the greaves below the chest(for those that have not played this game, greaves are the part of the armor covering your private parts and your legs),
boots below the greaves and
the shield next to left gauntlet.
There was about 10+ sets. Only part that ever eluded me was the left Daedric pauldron.

On the right side there was a table on which I had placed all my enchanted rings, amulets, belts, pants, robes, shirts, skirts that I didn't take with me. Quite a collection was there. of course all nicely placed and extra light provided by extra Lanterns(Blue ones, yellow ones)

On the left side was a small skin wall behind which there where a few boxes on top of each I placed every enchanted helmet and shield I ever found in the game, that was worth keeping. Probably 10+ of each.

Next to that a book shelf, but instead of books on each shelf was a diffident set of items.Top shelf had all the enchanted weapons that you could ever think of. On the middle shelf I placed all my Bows and arrows of each set. About 6 or 7 probably. Bottom shelf each enchanted Staff that was worth keeping. Probably 20+. Of course all nicely placed one next to each other.

Now when we climb to the second floor and the bedroom, on the first clear space on the left side we have a full asortmant of all the levels of all the apparatus used for alchemy. 4 pieces x 5 sets. All nicely placed one next to each other in order of skill required to use them. Next to that about 100 diffident potions, many in stacks of 50+.

On the bed, the night stand, the low wardrobe and the table each weapon of each set had its place in its group.

Next to the bed on the floor ALL the soul gems of ALL the 5 kinds of soul gems, set up in two columns, filed and empty. In each corner an extra lamp for good lighting.

I had quite a few screen shots of this collection, but lost it long time ago when one of my HDD had a brake down. I will never forget my self for not having a backup copy.

I am sorry if you might find this post boring, but I had a nostalgia attack and had to share...

[Serenegoose]

I apologise in advance but I can't be arsed reading through the 68 pages of this thread to see if a consensus has been reached on this point but how is the writing and characterisation in Skyrim? I'm not expecting miracles but has it improved since Fallout 3? Is it a little bit engaging?

The answer is:

Not really, but sometimes. Stay away from Bethesda games if you want a well told story - you won't get one.

[Angel Dust]

Overall plot I don't really care about too much; it's more the general quality of the dialogue and characters and it's not that I want brilliant stuff either. It probably doesn't really have to that engaging either. Basically I just want to explore the world of Skyrim without constantly running into irritating, stupid characters like Three-Dog and Moira. I've heard the voice acting has improved so if it's mostly low-key, fairly unobtrusive characters (much like what RAGE had actually) then I'm fine with that.

[Serenegoose]

Overall plot I don't really care about too much; it's more the general quality of the dialogue and characters and it's not that I want brilliant stuff either. It probably doesn't really have to that engaging either. Basically I just want to explore the world of Skyrim without constantly running into irritating, stupid characters like Three-Dog and Moira. I've heard the voice acting has improved so if it's mostly low-key, fairly unobtrusive characters (much like what RAGE had actually) then I'm fine with that.

Nobody like that that I've encountered. They're in the main absolutely forgettably mediocre, insofar as that means they rarely plummet to memorable depths as much as they do not ascend to memorable heights.

[Berzee]

I actually have quite a few characters I'm fond of -- the problem being that most of them don't have many lines beyond the 10 or 15 they share when they first meet you. In the main it is much better than Oblivion, and rarely irritatingly bad. ;)

I have found likeable characters (even quoteable ones!) in the courts of Jarls, the halls of the Fighter's Guild (equivalent), the Mages' College, on city streets in cities of various atmospheres...

It's nothing hugely dramatic or the kind of characterization that will pleasantly haunt your idle thoughts, no -- but it's just enough flavor that it actually lends some imagination fuel to the NPC's Bethesda-style random thrashings-about. And there have been characters I'm genuinely glad to see when I run into them again on the road. =) But perhaps only because I have willingly surrendered myself to the show, and also enjoy yelling greetings to characters so that my wife can be aware of my every Skyrim adventure.

[JackShandy]

I apologise in advance but I can't be arsed reading through the 68 pages of this thread to see if a consensus has been reached on this point but how is the writing and characterisation in Skyrim? I'm not expecting miracles but has it improved since Fallout 3? Is it a little bit engaging?

The characters in skyrim do their jobs, basically. They don't get in the way, very few of them are noticeably bad, they won't give you any trouble. It's not about them, and you couldn't really say any of them are good in their own right, but they hold up the world fine.

[outoffeelinsobad]

An article by Tom Bissell: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7290527/one-night-skyrim-makes-strong-man-crumble

Less is more, Bethesda. Good storytelling is about changing mental inertia, not bludgeoning names and dates and places into my skull.

[Alez]

I apologise in advance but I can't be arsed reading through the 68 pages of this thread to see if a consensus has been reached on this point but how is the writing and characterisation in Skyrim? I'm not expecting miracles but has it improved since Fallout 3? Is it a little bit engaging?
I would say it's on par with fallout 3 but behind New Vegas. My biggest problem is that your character doesn't really say much beyond "so where do you want me to go?". Can't flesh out my hero through conversations.

As to the NPCs, i haven't met anyone annoying but then again i liked Three Dog.
I have to agree with Berzee, the few characters i enjoyed didn't have much dialogue.

I absolutely hate it when NPCs get stuck with an audio loop, never saying anything else when you click on them. Might as well don't have them say anything or just "hello" or "good day".

[JackShandy]

from the beautiful simplicity of the user-interface system (at least when compared to previous Elder Scrolls games)


The NPCs in the Souls games have 1 percent as many lines as the NPCs in Skyrim and speak in a faux-Shakespearean dudgeon higher and more stylized than the characters of Skyrim, and yet none of the stuff they say winds up feeling like overwrought bullshit.

Apart from these two bits, I agree with everything in that article.

[Ravelle]

I completed the Dark Brotherhood quest line and found the end to be quite anti-climatic, after the main event Nazir has some final jobs for you, killing generic random characters who don't even put up a challenge, the final contract is really weird.

*Spoilers*



Nazir saying this will be the last and most challenging
kill so far, that I have to board a ship and kill the captain there, and that I
have to be patient since the ship will be cruising around and sometimes won't be
even in Skyrim, the second I get the quest I locate the quest on the map it's
right there, like instantly. And it is one of the most easy quest you
get.

[gundrea]

Asking an expository-lore-loving gamer whether there should be expository lore in a game like Skyrim is like asking an alcoholic if he'd like a drink.

What an odd thing to say. By that logic asking Tom Bissell if there should be expository lore in a game like Skyrim is like asking a teetotaler if he'd like a drink.

[Skalpadda]

Basically I just want to explore the world of Skyrim without constantly running into irritating, stupid characters like Three-Dog and Moira.

There hasn't been anything that's made me want to murder the character in question just because they sound annoying and most of the voice acting is serviceable with some of it being pretty good.

The attempt to give all the Nords Scandinavian accents is wildly inconsistent though. For example you'll probably come across two gate guards where one is definitely played by a Norwegian or Swede while the other is doing a weird Arnold Schwartzenegger impression, some sound Dutch (the court wizard in Whiterun for example) and other times it's fairly obvious you have a native English speaker who's being asked to roll their Rs and pronounce sword as "swåård" to sound like a Viking.

Sometimes it's really good though, there's a female voice actor I'm pretty sure is from Norway who probably has the most distinct accent in the game and plays a lot of various parts and she's an absolute joy to listen to.

[Bristoff]

I just wish there was some sort of mechanic that would stop frequently used merchants from saying anything except from "Hello" or "Goodbye". The amount of times I've heard different people say the "Some might call it junk...."-line is just absurd.

Generally the NPC's do their job well enough, though I can't get myself to use any kind of companion since the AI is simply terrible. At least the horses in this game stay put when you get off it, and doesn't try to follow you up hills or cross lakes if you decide to go spelunking. It would be nice if you could ask it to stay in a specific stable until you call on it though, guess I'm gonna need a mod for that.

[Ian]

I get bored of merchant chat, though I feel a bit sorry for the woman in Whiterun's potions shop.

The way she says, "So you're... interested in my potions and ingredients?" She just sounds so desperate, like all she wants is for somebody to say, "Actually Arcadia, I just came for a bit of a chinwag."

....

Then I flog her all my potions and fuck off.

[Ravelle]

I get bored of merchant chat, though I feel a bit sorry for the woman in Whiterun's potions shop.

The way she says, "So you're... interested in my potions and ingredients?" She just sounds so desperate, like all she wants is for somebody to say, "Actually Arcadia, I just came for a bit of a chinwag."

....

Then I flog her all my potions and fuck off.

Of course they're desperate because those shops are poor as hell. :P

[psyk]

"Some might call it junk...."

me i call them treasures arghhhhhhhhhhhhhh stab stab

[Ravelle]

me i call them treasures arghhhhhhhhhhhhhh stab stab



You know, a bit of this and a bit of that..

[Ian]

Of course they're desperate because those shops are poor as hell. :P

Can't be that poor, every day I go back and she's got another however much gold from her pit of money.

Given nobody else ever goes in, I'm just going to go right ahead and assume all the alchemy shop owner in the game is a skooma dealer at night.

[Ravelle]

Can't be that poor, every day I go back and she's got another however much gold from her pit of money.

Given nobody else ever goes in, I'm just going to go right ahead and assume all the alchemy shop owner in the game is a skooma dealer at night.

My Inventory is full of armor and dragon scales because most of the time because I sell so many the stores are just bankrupt. ;p

[Giaddon]

I think the writing/dialogue is fine, better than FO3 (plus there's a truly shocking amount of inter-character dialogue. You'll hear unique lines that give you insight into the relationship between the members of a farming family in the middle of nowhere. They will only have those lines, but it isn't generic and it adds a lot to the world).

Many of the dungeons have incidental micro-stories that are told without dialogue, and revealed as you explore the space. Which isn't "writing," exactly, but it is a narrative and it makes the dungeons much more engaging. I'd say these put it above even New Vegas for me. They're very elegant. I'm not much of a dungeon crawler but I really enjoy Skyrim's dungeons.

[Berzee]

To be fair to the merchants who call their things treasures...they DO have the same scruffy dovahkiin popping into their shop multiple times EVERY day, and every time asking, "What do you have for sale?" So uhhh, it's been what, three hours since our last transaction? So, What Do You Have For Sale?

What I am saying is that in the war of repetitive phrases bandied about between dovahkiins and shopkeeps -- we started it. ;)

[PeteC]

Reports of the patch introducing almost as many bugs as it solves on consoles. Anyone know if the PC version is similarly affected?

[Drake Sigar]

Yahtzee (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/5020-The-Elder-Scrolls-V-Skyrim) just released a video on Skyrim. He likes it! I think...

[pakoito]

After rushing the main quest in Skyrim I went back to Nehrim and I must say dungeons in Skyrim are still subpar compared to what modders did and do. If someone wants an example, I can provide a savegame that only needs Oblivion + Nehrim mod installed and updated.

[Hensler]

As a an archer, I've played through some of the Skyrim dungeons as an psuedo-rail-shooter with my godly double-enchanted bow and the auto-walk button.

[Smashbox]

My Inventory is full of armor and dragon scales because most of the time because I sell so many the stores are just bankrupt. ;p

I finally got the Speech perk that allows you to sell any merchandise to any merchant, and it make an enormous difference in unloading after dungeons. Get that perk!

[Anthile]

I am very disappointed. It appears the patch did... absolutely nothing for me. At all.

[Wulf]

Well, I'm done with the main quest and liberating Skyrim. It's... not bad. It's distinctly an action/adventure, like I thought, but it's actually quite decent in that role. I liked it. Can I like it whilst still being disappointed that I feel that they half-arsed a lot of things, is that permitted? Because that's my overall take.

I keep coming to things and thinking "I wish they'd done more with that." or "I wish they'd gone further with that idea." or "I wish they'd fleshed that out, more." or "I wish that storyline hadn't stopped right there." quite a bit. What's there is enjoyable, but it's a bit shallow, which is my major complaint. Like my favourite quest line, involving the Companions, which stopped so abruptly and everyone promptly forgot about everything that had happened and I could go no further with it. Or Paarthurnax, I wish I could have helped him trying to talk a few dragons around, to aid him in winning his war of philosophy.

I love the dungeons, though. I have to be fair. The designs and traps are fairly amazing. I also liked the interactivity. There could be more of that, and really, I think that this is what this new team of Bethesda's exists at. Honestly? I want to smoosh Bethesda and Obsidian together for TES VI. I want Bethesda working on the dungeons, and Obsidian working on the campaigns. I think that might actually result in the greatest RPG I've ever played.

Coming out of Skyrim... not as bad as I thought. Still a lot to poke, a lot of dungeons to delve into, and I suspect I'll do that. But having done what I've done thus far, the will to play has left me a bit, for now. I suspect I'll be right back in once the mod quests start coming along, though. And I suspect they will. I only hope that puce moose will be modding for Skyrim. I really, really hope that he will. He made my Fallout 3 endeavours very enjoyable, and added flavour to my time in New Vegas.

So, yeah, it's a good exploration game. It's not as bad as I thought it would be. And I wasn't forced to kill Paarthurnax as I was dreading. (I was genuinely shocked by this, you would be surprised at how much it took me aback. Bethesda won points, there.)

I still feel though... they just concentrated on the generic stuff a bit too much, and half-arsed the story stuff due to that.

Hence wanting to see Obsidian and Bethesda combined for TES VI.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing what mods come along for Skyrim, and I'm pleased that I wasn't completely right about it. I think that choice at the end was what lifted the pall of doom. But it would be nice if I could actually help Paarth now, and not still get chased around by every bloody dragon that spots me.

"No! Hop it, you! I don't want to kill you! Piss off! Stop that! Right, I'm going into this cave and I'm not coming out until you've buggered off. Oooh, orichalcum ore."

[Serenegoose]

So basically what I've figured is that Wulf likes Dragons as I like Faeries. OK I probably don't like Faeries quite as much. :P

As far as Skyrim goes I'm still basically content with it - it feels completely shallow to me. I like being able to play through the combat how I want to play it, and focus on smithing/alchemy/enchanting as I want to and things like that - but I truly wish that conversations weren't just lore dispensers - I wish I had options beyond 'yes' and 'no' more often. I feel like a ghost in the world - I can interact with it on a superficial level but more than even most games I feel like I'm doing absolutely nothing. I'm apparently a fairly well known figure according to the guards who can regale me with every deed I've ever performed, but the mages guild has no idea I'm the legendary dragon born - the same dragonborn that knows 4 spells in total but they still admitted me as long as I could drain my entire manapool conjuring an atronarch? And why does the game keep trying to paint the stormcloaks in at least a semi-sympathetic light? I'm a wood elf and they're a bunch of racist tits. Can we get to the part where I kill them all for their dickish attitude?

[pakoito]

I love the dungeons, though. I have to be fair. The designs and traps are fairly amazing. No no no no no no no no a thousand times no. People is so used to corridors and Oblivion stuff they don't realize how cheesy and cheap the dungeon and level design is for this one. Yes, it "looks" good, but most of the dungeons, most of them are just a lineal path with maybe one combinational lock in the middle, and a boss in the end. I've tried and played and tested other games and mods' dungeons (I come back to Nehrim again but, fuck, underrated!) and I can draw the prototype skyrim dungeon top of my head and the differences will be a 1%. They're just so...static.

I can give them they *sometimes* got the dungeon backstory right, but that's it.

[Lacero]

Yes, it "looks" good, but most of the dungeons, most of them are just a lineal path with maybe one combinational lock in the middle, and a boss in the end.

Don't forget the door at the end leading you back to the start quickly.

[Hensler]

Minor Main Questline Spoilers: I haven't done much of the main quest, and I was just hanging out with Ulfric taking over Imperial Forts. After I took control of Fort Snowhawk, I got several quest completed status messages. The most recent completed objective it showed was "Talk to the Greybeards to arrange a peace treaty." WTF? I haven't been anywhere near the Greycloaks in a long time. My objective is now to "Learn the shout to call Odahviing." From what I've seen in other posts, I think I just skipped a portion of the main questline and possibly broke it all together. Happened again after a reload too. Grrrrr.

[pakoito]

Minor Main Questline Spoilers: I haven't done much of the main quest, and I was just hanging out with Ulfric taking over Imperial Forts. After I took control of Fort Snowhawk, I got several quest completed status messages. The most recent completed objective it showed was "Talk to the Greybeards to arrange a peace treaty." WTF? I haven't been anywhere near the Greycloaks in a long time. My objective is now to "Learn the shout to call Odahviing." From what I've seen in other posts, I think I just skipped a portion of the main questline and possibly broke it all together. Happened again after a reload too. Grrrrr.
Check here for bug fixing: http://uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Skyrim:Season_Unending

[Nalano]

No no no no no no no no a thousand times no. People is so used to corridors and Oblivion stuff they don't realize how cheesy and cheap the dungeon and level design is for this one. Yes, it "looks" good, but most of the dungeons, most of them are just a lineal path with maybe one combinational lock in the middle, and a boss in the end. I've tried and played and tested other games and mods' dungeons (I come back to Nehrim again but, fuck, underrated!) and I can draw the prototype skyrim dungeon top of my head and the differences will be a 1%. They're just so...static.

I can give them they *sometimes* got the dungeon backstory right, but that's it.

This. Dungeon quests are basically repeatable quests, except each time you raid a new dungeon. It's nigh impossible to get lost because there's only one way to go, the enemies often as not set off their own traps, the bandit camps make no sense in a "why would they live this way" mode of thinking, you find fresh apples in centuries-abandoned catacombs, and a mechanical trap that still works after a century is worth ten times more than any loot it's potentially guarding.

[pakoito]

This. Dungeon quests are basically repeatable quests, except each time you raid a new dungeon. It's nigh impossible to get lost because there's only one way to go, the enemies often as not set off their own traps, the bandit camps make no sense in a "why would they live this way" mode of thinking, you find fresh apples in centuries-abandoned catacombs, and a mechanical trap that still works after a century is worth ten times more than any loot it's potentially guarding.
I'm not going that route. Most dungeon feels more or less organic to some degree, and the random level-locked loot in chest is understandable. What I'm talking about is how running those dungeons *plays*.

I'm going to record my actual Nehrim dungeon for people to see what you can have: resistance phases, working mechanism (!= switches), manipulating player expectations, unscripted "scripted" scenes, playing with player's feeling of danger, confusing mazelike corridors, even some jumping puzzles FFS.

[Flint]

Skyrim video of the day:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHvx0l_tVEw

[Hensler]

Skyrim video of the day:



Huh. I'm most surprised that that video doesn't have the nude females patch installed.

[Drake Sigar]

This. Dungeon quests are basically repeatable quests, except each time you raid a new dungeon. It's nigh impossible to get lost because there's only one way to go, the enemies often as not set off their own traps, the bandit camps make no sense in a "why would they live this way" mode of thinking, you find fresh apples in centuries-abandoned catacombs, and a mechanical trap that still works after a century is worth ten times more than any loot it's potentially guarding.
Also the wolves have seemingly grasped economics and go around carrying pouches of gold.

[pakoito]

Also the wolves have seemingly grasped economics and go around carrying pouches of gold.Wrong. They ate some coins by mistake (45 of them) and you carve them off their stomach.

[Nalano]

Wrong. They ate some coins by mistake (45 of them) and you carve them off their stomach.

That means that not only are you skinning every goddamn wolf in the wild, but you're disemboweling them, too.

You must smell awesome whenever you walk into town.

[Drinking with Skeletons]

Well, I'm done with the main quest and liberating Skyrim. It's... not bad. It's distinctly an action/adventure, like I thought, but it's actually quite decent in that role. I liked it. Can I like it whilst still being disappointed that I feel that they half-arsed a lot of things, is that permitted? Because that's my overall take.

I keep coming to things and thinking "I wish they'd done more with that." or "I wish they'd gone further with that idea." or "I wish they'd fleshed that out, more." or "I wish that storyline hadn't stopped right there." quite a bit. What's there is enjoyable, but it's a bit shallow, which is my major complaint. Like my favourite quest line, involving the Companions, which stopped so abruptly and everyone promptly forgot about everything that had happened and I could go no further with it. Or Paarthurnax, I wish I could have helped him trying to talk a few dragons around, to aid him in winning his war of philosophy.

I love the dungeons, though. I have to be fair. The designs and traps are fairly amazing. I also liked the interactivity. There could be more of that, and really, I think that this is what this new team of Bethesda's exists at. Honestly? I want to smoosh Bethesda and Obsidian together for TES VI. I want Bethesda working on the dungeons, and Obsidian working on the campaigns. I think that might actually result in the greatest RPG I've ever played.

Coming out of Skyrim... not as bad as I thought. Still a lot to poke, a lot of dungeons to delve into, and I suspect I'll do that. But having done what I've done thus far, the will to play has left me a bit, for now. I suspect I'll be right back in once the mod quests start coming along, though. And I suspect they will. I only hope that puce moose will be modding for Skyrim. I really, really hope that he will. He made my Fallout 3 endeavours very enjoyable, and added flavour to my time in New Vegas.

So, yeah, it's a good exploration game. It's not as bad as I thought it would be. And I wasn't forced to kill Paarthurnax as I was dreading. (I was genuinely shocked by this, you would be surprised at how much it took me aback. Bethesda won points, there.)

I still feel though... they just concentrated on the generic stuff a bit too much, and half-arsed the story stuff due to that.

Hence wanting to see Obsidian and Bethesda combined for TES VI.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing what mods come along for Skyrim, and I'm pleased that I wasn't completely right about it. I think that choice at the end was what lifted the pall of doom. But it would be nice if I could actually help Paarth now, and not still get chased around by every bloody dragon that spots me.

"No! Hop it, you! I don't want to kill you! Piss off! Stop that! Right, I'm going into this cave and I'm not coming out until you've buggered off. Oooh, orichalcum ore."

I'm with you on how some of the plots just petered out. For example, I assumed that there would be a Moot at the end of the Civil War questline and that I'd be able to help my preferred candidate win.

Still, looking at what they did with FO3--notably Broken Steel--I have hopes that they will further the idea of DLC as being the modern incarnation of expansions: quality content that extends the title rather than just adding more to the sides. Obsidian did something similar with FO: NV, although it was a side plot that delved into the philosophical aspects of the setting (the blind opulence of the U.S. before the bombs fell, science run amok, and the ways in which loyalty and nationalism can strengthen, destroy, or pervert whole populations at the whim of a few) rather than a true extension. Of course, there were so many permutations in NV that it would have been a real bear for them to create post-endgame content, so I don't mind. I just hope Bethesda was watching, reading the reviews, taking notes, and aspiring to do something similar.

I do think it's interesting that completing all of the Civil War quests does not give you a +1 in the Questlines Completed stat. Or I have encountered a bug.

[pakoito]

That means that not only are you skinning every goddamn wolf in the wild, but you're disemboweling them, too.

You must smell awesome whenever you walk into town.That's what I assume from this games. I mean I get the pelt, why not check his stomach for GEMS?

[Zaboomafoozarg]

Warning: Fus Ro Dah can be hazardous to your health.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j-EyBNZozE

[Wulf]

I'm with you on how some of the plots just petered out. For example, I assumed that there would be a Moot at the end of the Civil War questline and that I'd be able to help my preferred candidate win.

Still, looking at what they did with FO3--notably Broken Steel--I have hopes that they will further the idea of DLC as being the modern incarnation of expansions: quality content that extends the title rather than just adding more to the sides. Obsidian did something similar with FO: NV, although it was a side plot that delved into the philosophical aspects of the setting (the blind opulence of the U.S. before the bombs fell, science run amok, and the ways in which loyalty and nationalism can strengthen, destroy, or pervert whole populations at the whim of a few) rather than a true extension. Of course, there were so many permutations in NV that it would have been a real bear for them to create post-endgame content, so I don't mind. I just hope Bethesda was watching, reading the reviews, taking notes, and aspiring to do something similar.

I do think it's interesting that completing all of the Civil War quests does not give you a +1 in the Questlines Completed stat. Or I have encountered a bug.

Pretty much agree with all of this. Though really, in regards to NV, I don't think they could have done anything else. They satisfied every possibility. That's what I love about Obsidian, really.

What if I do this, and this, and then this?

They have storied content for all of that, with a unique bit of closure.

So what if I do this, this, and that instead?

Yup, got you covered.

So what if I do everything completely differently?

Got content for all of that, along with whatever closure is required for the choices you made.

What if I do everything the same and then make one, crazy out of character choice at the end?

We've anticipated that, there's content in place for it.

Not only that, but Obsidian really flesh out and finish their storylines. To use a metaphor, I feel like I have a full stomach after an Obsidian meal, I feel filled. Their games are fulfilling, and I never come away from them wanting, or wishing. But with Skyrim, there's a lot of great starts, but like you said, it tends to peter out, and lots of stuff I did just feels like it didn't matter. I was going to bring up the moot, too, but really by this point I'd just sound like a broken record...

So this is what I hope they're paying attention to. They need to add further richness to the scenarios that did peter out, they need to finish them, and it needs to offer the player the feeling that what they did mattered. I think the problem with Skyrim, over all others, is a chronic lack of closure.

Companions: Multi-part thing, this. I wanted to redeem werewolves in the eyes of the people of Skyrim with Ulfric's help. Perhaps after having sought the blessings of Talos and Ysgramor in order to turn the inner beasts of the Companions away from their bloodlust, and giving the werewolf a new skin to reflect that. The 'inner circle' would become the White Wolves of Whiterun, and those who would join the Companions would have to work hard to become part of that pack. Furthermore, the lodge would become a school for young adventurers and warriors, where you could recruit and train people.

Main Quest: I wanted to sit and philosophise with Paarthurnax for a bit, then I'd want to hold a meeting with important dragons to continue to argue philosophy, to reach them, with the end result of a few dragon factions arising, one or two of them being pro-mortal, so we'd actually get some help from those dragons that didn't involve the Dragon Call. (And just in general, even, not versus other dragons. It'd be pretty amazing to have a dragon rescue a random guy from a rampaging giant.)

The Civil War: I wanted the moot to happen, I wanted a lot of selections, and I wanted each selection to have their own quest which dictated what they wanted for the future of Skyrim. And possibly even the ability to elect oneself as the High King, and debate/fight for the right to the title, which results in the player having to do a heck of a lot of micromanagement with resources and pleas for help from the peoples.

Riften: I wanted to be able to oust Maven and the rest of the Black-Briars, somehow. I wanted to work with that nice Lioness lady to weave together a slightly devious plan that would result in the current government calling for their exile. And there would be much rejoicing, and you'd be able to hear how happy people are that they aren't having their lives dictated to them under threat by Maven.

Thalmor: I wanted to do some real cloak & dagger stuff with infiltrating the Thalmor after the Civil War, to foil their plans to do harm to the young, new government of Skyrim and generally be a continuing thorn in their side.

Racism: I wanted to somehow get through to Ulfric about racism, that being so amazingly dickish to all elves made him no better than the Thalmor, and to institute a document of rights for non-nords in Skyrim, to dictate that they won't have everything handed to them on a silver platter, and they may have to earn their worth, but that they won't automatically be treated worthless simply because of whatever race they were born as. (There were hints that this would happen with a few quests, but it never went anywhere.)

So yeah, whilst I did end up liking Skyrim a whole lot, I've yet to feel satisfied by it in the way that I would with an Obsidian game. And this is because I can see so many ways that their storylines could have gone that they just didn't anticipate. But, as you said, DLC will cope with some of that. And, in due course, mods will do the rest.

[Berzee]

a video

:( :( :( :(

[Berzee]

@Wulf -- re: Companions stuff you said, a training hall where you had a choice of various wimpy adventurers that you could go on training-quests with until they become strong enough to be a viable follower would be great fun...especially because I haven't liked any of my choices for followers so far, so it would be nice to have a pool of them milling about the lodge to choose from. :P

[Drake Sigar]

@Wulf -- re: Companions stuff you said, a training hall where you had a choice of various wimpy adventurers that you could go on training-quests with until they become strong enough to be a viable follower would be great fun...especially because I haven't liked any of my choices for followers so far, so it would be nice to have a pool of them milling about the lodge to choose from. :P
I want to be able to take a personal interest in a new recruit's training and take him or her out on adventures, but I also want the option to oversee a larger operation. Tell my drill master what sort of training he should focus on with the recruits, assign important missions where failure for them means cultivating a further unfavourable attitude towards the wolf pack, or even death. I want to see recruits gradually develop in wealth/equipment and rise through the ranks. I want local Jarls to compete for my favour.

The problem is all of that's a whole game in itself.

[Smashbox]

I want to see recruits gradually develop in wealth/equipment and rise through the ranks. I want local Jarls to compete for my favour.

That's a great thought. I've demonstrated to my Skyrim that I'm a force to be reckoned with - they should be actively courting me, the best knight in the realm, a one-man army for all intents and purposes, to help with their war effort.

[Shane]

Every once in a while I check this thread only to have spoilers making me bash myself in the face.

[Drinking with Skeletons]

Pretty much agree with all of this. Though really, in regards to NV, I don't think they could have done anything else. They satisfied every possibility. That's what I love about Obsidian, really.



Like I said, it would have been brutal to extend New Vegas given all of the possible permutations (which, as you said, wouldn't have benefited as much from extension as Skyrim).

But some of the things you've listed are far more complex than what I would be satisfied with. I think a cool option would've been for your character to become Jarl of Windhelm or Solitude and have some quests in which you actually have to deal with day-to-day affairs. I would have liked a non-Nord to be (politely) refused this reward by Ulfric and a non-Nord to have more difficulty dealing with Windhelm's problems. There have been games that have done this before--the never-discussed but pretty-darn-good Summoner 2 had quite a few decisions that the main character could make as queen of her land--and it would be a great way to up the value of the Speech skill. The Moot still seems like an obvious choice, but I could see them not doing that simply to ensure that they have canonical control over any political consequences of the succession (like they did with Councilor Ocato from Oblivion).

I definitely think they need to extend the main story to include quests for Paarthunax or the Blades (we need more mutual-exclusivity in the game beyond the Civil War, although I was surprised to learn that there's an official way you can lock yourself out of the Dark Brotherhood...) and flesh them out. I agree that Delphine, in particular, comes off as kind of a rigid psycho, but there's room for some genuine moral quandaries to be built upon both her and Paarthunax.

Finally, I would absolutely love a "Factions Sidequest Pack" DLC to add more extraneous stuff to each of the four existing factions. The dynamic quests are alright, but I'm thinking more of the stuff that they dabbled in with the College of Winterhold. There you've got a single sidequest for each of the three other students, a lengthy quest for Arneil which seems to be tied to either your level or whether or not you're the Archmage, a master-level quest for each school of magic when you reach skill level 90, two unmarked quests in the Midden, and the option--though there's no reward or anything that I know of--to find the remains of the previous group of students scattered throughout Skyrim. This extra stuff fleshed the College out far more than its pretty straight-forward storyline and really emphasized the idea of advancing the skills related to that faction. I want more of that. Why not have special quests for the Companions that are related to your Warrior Skill levels? Why not have a quest or two for each of the non-Circle Companions? There's so much potential there and it would be exactly the kind of thing that would make for satisfying DLC.

[Drinking with Skeletons]

Every once in a while I check this thread only to have spoilers making me bash myself in the face.

Isn't your Armor skill improving? If you're going full mage you need to remember to cast Spoilerflesh.

*Dramatic Drum Beat*

Sweet, my Internet Asshole skill leveled up!

[Anthile]

As beautiful and awe-inspiring as Blackreach is, I was kind of disappointed how little there was to do. Beyond recovering that main quest artifact and that fetch quest, there just isn't much, not even in the sense of worldly treasures. Okay, there was the dragon but that was a bit random.

[Shane]

How much of a role does the type of armor, light or heavy, play in sneaking? I do have the 50% armor sound reduction perk.

[pakoito]

How much of a role does the type of armor, light or heavy, play in sneaking? I do have the 50% armor sound reduction perk.Go for light. At the end of both trees they're on par on defense, which is stupid but hey...Bethesda.

[orcane]

Glass and dragon armor looks bad though.

I'm getting slightly annoyed by NPCs, but especially my follower repeating their same two or three sentences. It's bad enough they keep repeating them in the first place (yes I get it Erandur, you always wanted to visit Whiterun), but the worst part is they always find the most inappropriate time to shout their remarks, like when I'm trying to listen in on a conversation between other NPCs, and just drown out whatever I'm trying to listen to by saying how they're working for Belethor's general goods store eg. Seriously, I know, I "lived" in this city for 40 hours. STFU FFS.

[Hensler]

Need some help with a bug in the Dark Brotherhood questline, but I'll try to keep it spoiler free except for NPC names:

I'm at the part where an NPC is giving me an assassination contract, and he says his bodyguard Rexus will give me two items with the information I need. Unfortunately, as soon as I enter the room, Rexus is hostile with me. Maybe because he's an Imperial, and I did the Stormcloack quests, I don't know. Since he's hostile, he attacks me the whole time I'm talking with his boss, and then my companion beats him down. Meaning I can't get the two items from him and continue the questline. Since it's in combat mode, I can't pickpocket him either. I've tried leaving the dungeon and coming and back, and loading a couple of the other auto-saves before the encounter. He's always hostile to me. Anybody know if there is a console command I can use to either spawn whatever items I need from him or make him friendly?

[Drake Sigar]

You can buy the Calm spell from the court wizard in Whiterun. Maybe that'll snap Rexus out of it long enough to give you the items.

[Nalano]

Anyone else find it strange that doing a minor favor for somebody - like, say, fedexing a finished sword from the blacksmith to its intended recipient - makes you best buddies with said recipient?

I mean, I'm nice to my mailman, but I don't invite him to my wedding.

[Serenegoose]

Anyone else find it strange that doing a minor favor for somebody - like, say, fedexing a finished sword from the blacksmith to its intended recipient - makes you best buddies with said recipient?

I mean, I'm nice to my mailman, but I don't invite him to my wedding.

Maybe they're just that surprised that the random stranger they trusted their lifes work to didn't just steal it.

[Nalano]

Maybe they're just that surprised that the random stranger they trusted their lifes work to didn't just steal it.

Which, of course, implies that they're so hard-up for human contact that they'd entrust their life's work to the next random dude that walks by.

Also, it's freakishly easy to bug out a bookcase. That irks me.

[Lacero]

Which, of course, implies that they're so hard-up for human contact that they'd entrust their life's work to the next random dude that walks by.


Better, after being helped out once they'll gladly sign up to join an almost dead secret society and dedicate the rest of their life to...preserving the empire and protecting the (dead) emperors and killing dragons...?

[Wulf]

Anyone else find it strange that doing a minor favor for somebody - like, say, fedexing a finished sword from the blacksmith to its intended recipient - makes you best buddies with said recipient?

I mean, I'm nice to my mailman, but I don't invite him to my wedding.

I won't lie. That cracked me up. Oh, it's strange all right, it's utterly silly, but it's probably a bug. Still, it's the harmless sort of nonsense bug that Cryptic ends up with a lot of. It's just quirky. I was amused by the amount of strangers who turned up when I married that guy who's a perma-werewolf (HAX).

I was like... "Uh, I don't even know who you are, did I even help you with anything?"

So, here's a funny thing: If you run around doing setrelationshiprank player 4 on people, you can have them randomly turn up at your wedding. One thing I really want to try is to see whether I can get Ovadiign or Paarthurnax to turn up at my wedding. Bet'cha it's possible.

But yeah, this is inane. But in a silly, appreciable way.

Also, I figured out why I couldn't stop calling you Nolano as opposed to Nalano. It was due to the frickin' Nolani Academy in Guild Wars. I played far too much of that game, so my hands like prioritising Nol over Nal even though I had a feeling it was wrong, so there you go.

---

And for more inanity...

AND SUDDENLY... everyone in Whiterun was a werewolf! (https://images.nonexiste.net/CO%20FUNTEIMZ/other/ScreenShot17.jpg)

You can blame one of my friends for this.

[Nalano]

Also, I figured out why I couldn't stop calling you Nolano as opposed to Nalano. It was due to the frickin' Nolani Academy in Guild Wars. I played far too much of that game, so my hands like prioritising Nol over Nal even though I had a feeling it was wrong, so there you go.

This is me, drunk, at 4am, hating the ever-living guts of you.

it will pass, as all things do, but but HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE

[Drake Sigar]

The 'end' was really underwhelming: I don't know why I bothered showing up if a legendary team of heroes was going to gangrape the boss for me. It was exactly like the very first dragon fight at the tower where the guards do the work and you inexplicably get all the credit.

I'm really starting to hate the Dragonborn.

[Wulf]

The 'end' was really underwhelming: I don't know why I bothered showing up if a legendary team of heroes was going to gangrape the boss for me. It was exactly like the very first dragon fight at the tower where the guards do the work and you inexplicably get all the credit.

I'm really starting to hate the Dragonborn.

Disclaimer: This post will be riddled with... SPOILERS. River Song would hate it.

This reminds me of the first fight. I went off to sniff flowers as a werewolf as the guards took down the dragon, I came back later and they were all singing my praises as a mighty dragonslayer. I was very confused.

This also reminds me of how, once, I watched two giant spiders take down a dragon from almost a cell's distance away, and I still got a dragon soul. I was very confused.

This yet again reminds of how, at one point, a dragon got bored with attacking people and flew off. And I was praised for taking care of their little dragon problem. I was very confused.

Also, Sovngard was a bit underwhelming, wasn't it? I want to see modders (and perhaps DLC) do more with that.

---


This is me, drunk, at 4am, hating the ever-living guts of you.

it will pass, as all things do, but but HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE

Poor Nalano. I'm making him go all Sweet Bro and Hella Jeff.

[Vexing Vision]

Alright, what's the command for unbinding questitems? I brought back enough instruments to the Bard's College to supply a fullsized rock-festival, but none of the questgivers actually want the items back. Since they're actually a bit heavy, and flagged as quest-items, I can't drop them either, even though I already got my reward. Huh.

Any ideas?

[Anthile]

Quest items have no weight. However, sometimes they stop being quest items and then they do gain weight and you should be able to get rid of it. Some items simply stay in your inventory forever.
Regarding the instruments, you should be able to give them to that old woman in the Bard's College in exchange for skill points.

[PeteC]

Quest items have no weight. However, sometimes they stop being quest items and then they do gain weight and you should be able to get rid of it. Some items simply stay in your inventory forever.
Regarding the instruments, you should be able to give them to that old woman in the Bard's College in exchange for skill points.
Some of them definitely have weight. The Dragonstone did certainly. I've got some sort of silver Dragonclaw in my inventory that weighs something or other that I can't get rid of until I complete its quest. No idea what that quest is though.

[Vexing Vision]

Quest items have no weight. However, sometimes they stop being quest items and then they do gain weight and you should be able to get rid of it. Some items simply stay in your inventory forever.
Regarding the instruments, you should be able to give them to that old woman in the Bard's College in exchange for skill points.

I turned all the instruments in (drum, flute and lute). I received all the rewards. I still have the instruments and can't drop them because they're quest-items. Quite annoying, as I'm struggling with the weight-limits as a mage anyway.

[squirrelfanatic]

Just reached smithing skill level of 100, made some Dragon Plate stuff (looks ok, but not really that great). I admit that I pushed it a little bit with the smithing, but nevertheless I find it a bit disappointing that so far I only ever found one (1) piece of ebon ore. I completely passed two levels of armors and weapons by, just because I still haven't been able to find or buy the ebon incredients (I already got a few Daedra hearts).

[Skalpadda]

There's a console command to get rid of quest items that fail to be removed or unflagged from your inventory. I can't remember it, but Google should be able to help you there.

edit:
squirrelfanatic, I've only found two mines with ebon ore (one of which had very little) and the only other place I've found it is as drops in Dwemer ruins but that's so rare that it's not worth the effort. Your best bet to get hold of it is probably just to buy it from blacksmiths and general goods stores.

[DigitalSignalX]

The quest instruments share the same ID as the default items, so if you can find the 000####'s for them, the console command to delete an item will still work for them. Specialty items like the lost alchemy set though have unique ID's.

[squirrelfanatic]

Skalpadda, the things you report confirm what my suspicion was all along. However, merchants and smiths don't sell ebon ore or ingots for me, but they do sell malachite and moonstone incredients which I absolutely have no use for. I wonder if this is a bug or if merchants factor in your character's level (I'm level 24 atm).

Edit: I also agree with Nalano on the bookshelf bug and hope this gets fixed by some mod soon. It's the same with arrows stuck in the walls/trees/general landscape. Sometimes, if you try to pick them up, they'll 'slip' through your fingers, will still show up together with the 'interact' flag but won't react to your actions anymore.

[Skalpadda]

Ebony ore is fairly rare from traders so you'll have to shop around a bit. The rarity seems to be a lore thing, it's apparently not mined in Skyrim and trade with it is heavily regulated by the authorities.

If you want to mine enough to make a full set and some extras, the place I found a lot of it was a mine called Gloombound Mine close to an orc stronghold called Narzulbur.

[gundrea]

Redbelly Mine was full of ebony ore last time I checked. Ebony ingots are sold regularly by smiths at 40 and above.

[Tei]

Ebony ore is fairly rare from traders so you'll have to shop around a bit. The rarity seems to be a lore thing, it's apparently not mined in Skyrim and trade with it is heavily regulated by the authorities.

If you want to mine enough to make a full set and some extras, the place I found a lot of it was a mine called Gloombound Mine close to an orc stronghold called Narzulbur.

Possible spoilers.

Ebony seems a rare metal, and the process of using it to enhance weapons, or make new weapons seems lost or unknow for the surface dwellers. I know because I just did a quest where you help discover this new "metal".

[Drake Sigar]

Harry turned another hardcore franchise into a 80s children's cartoon. Reminds me of the Dungeons & Dragons animated series.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVQmYF35w74

Also, the kid in the hat reminds me of Mighty Max.

[Berzee]

Ok, jumping back many many pages in this discussion to the part where a few of us were bemoaning how the Thieves' Guild is all two-bit thugs with no even rogueish attempt at honor -- well, I decided to make a new character just to try out the Guild and the Brotherhood (so as not to sully my other character with such crimes) and I should just like to point out (with as few spoilers as possible) that I did reach a point where it seems like you might have a bit of choice in terms of how thuggish exactly you plan to be. It's weird that they send you on a few unsavory "help awful people do awful things" quests before the alternatives present themselves (and I haven't really explored the alternatives yet) but I do like the guild a lot more now than upon my first few jobs with them. =)

In other news, for some reason it is the Funniest Thing to me that when you ask your spouse to move to a new house, they will literally leave their house and start walking across Skyrim to the new house. Has anyone ever followed their newlywed soulmate and seen them get eaten by bears or any such thing? Is that possible? (The lady my thief-elf married had a short walk over a recently-cleared road, so I could not test this meself).

[piratebrido]

Any magely advice for a wizard whom often gets a shoeing in battle? I feel dirty when I have to resort to swords and axes.

[Kadayi]

They're probably more likely to get eaten if you follow them than if you don't as the world carries out a bit of legerdemain as to what's going on outside of your immediate vicinity. After a prison breakout for want of a better thing to do I followed my fellow escapees to a cave and on the way we got pounced on by a couple of dragons and most of them got fried to crispy bacon. Restarting from the escape I left them to their own devices and then stopped off as the cave later on and miraculously they'd all made it unmolested.

[gundrea]

Any magely advice for a wizard whom often gets a shoeing in battle? I feel dirty when I have to resort to swords and axes.

Conjuration, Destruction Impact Perk, Fortify gear and good positioning in a high place where enemies can't reach you.

[Ravelle]

I tried playing mage but destruction magic levels so very slow. :(

[Berzee]

I tried playing mage but destruction magic levels so very slow. :(

That's what training is for! =)

[Vexing Vision]

Ever since I got the Wall spells, Destruction is levelling like crazy. It actually managed to be my first skill to 100 - faster than smithing. YES I KNOW.

[piratebrido]

I am only level 14, and I have pumped all my level ups, apart from two, into Magic (the other two went into health). I can blast away with firebolt, but I upgraded to fireball and two of those bad boy's and I am drained, and my mana doesn't recharge fast enough for it to be an option for me yet, so firebolt it is for 25 damage. I do double up on it sometimes, I have the perk for the added oomph for two handed spells, but it does drain me quick quick.

[Ian]

Ever since I got the Wall spells, Destruction is levelling like crazy. It actually managed to be my first skill to 100 - faster than smithing. YES I KNOW.

Oh, they're good for it are they? I've got frost wall and have yet to even use it out of forgetfulness.

[Drinking with Skeletons]

Oh, they're good for it are they? I've got frost wall and have yet to even use it out of forgetfulness.

The Wall spells are quickly outclassed by other, better spells, though they can be useful at mid-levels by using a frost atronach to keep enemies in one place and roast them.

@Ravelle:

Alteration's Flesh spells are very useful. If you aren't wearing any armor you can use the Mage Armor perk to triple (at max level) their effectiveness.

[Vexing Vision]

The Wall spells are quickly outclassed by other, better spells, though they can be useful at mid-levels by using a frost atronach to keep enemies in one place and roast them.


Really? Ever since getting it, I've been using Wall of Lightning almost exclusively. In combination with my Paralyzing Sword.

It's a really fun spell, and the DPS is quite nice for spells.

[PeopleLikeFrank]

[quasi-spoilers]:



So due to a certain quest, I'm now a horrible ghoul who eats the flesh of my fallen enemies - surely in that case I could also carve some off to make poisons with? (Also funny, random guard chatter: "Ugh, your breath smells terrible! What have you been eating?")

(Why hello there Fox News, we're just discussing a video game!)

[Wooly Wugga Wugga]

Can someone tell me how to turn ore into ingots?

[Serenegoose]

Can someone tell me how to turn ore into ingots?

Find someplace with a smelter and it'll show you how much ore/other ingredient you need. The blacksmith at whiterun has a smelter at the back behind the forge. Big thing, like an iron igloo.

[Wulf]

SPOILERS PRESENT, OF COURSE.


So due to a certain quest, I'm now a horrible ghoul who eats the flesh of my fallen enemies - surely in that case I could also carve some off to make poisons with? (Also funny, random guard chatter: "Ugh, your breath smells terrible! What have you been eating?")

Hahaha, I remember that quest. That's actually one of my favourite quests, overall, because it was designed in a very Obsidian-ish way. There were quite a few choices involved. My favourite choice was to trick the priest in question to following me to a certain cave, only to watch him getting easily hypnotised by that crazy cannibal lady, only to save him by taking them all out.

"Uh, wait... so... you used me unwittingly... in... what... in a mad plot to take care of Skyrim's cannibal cult?"
"Pretty much!"
"..."
"Yeah, I'm awesome. You didn't come to any harm, either. And look, no more cannibals!"
"...I must get back to Markath. But hey, you did good, so have some money."

[jryan]

So I've been wondering.. when Elder Scrolls VII is announced, will they stick with the wildly popular "Dovakiin" character type? I am betting they will given how popular Skyrim has proven to be. They kind of shot their wad going right for the Dragonborn... they should have started with Ratborn and worked their way up the ES bestiary to the apex predator.

Or maybe they will make you Dwemerborn.

[Serenegoose]

So I've been wondering.. when Elder Scrolls VII is announced, will they stick with the wildly popular "Dovakiin" character type? I am betting they will given how popular Skyrim has proven to be. They kind of shot their wad going right for the Dragonborn... they should have started with Ratborn and worked their way up the ES bestiary to the apex predator.

Or maybe they will make you Dwemerborn.

I've always wanted the ability to yell at dwarves.

[perafilozof]

Got an idea for this while making toast from some trolls with a fire wall spell.

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h345/perablenta/ESV.jpg

[Smashbox]

I've always wanted the ability to yell at dwarves.


You don't even need to be playing a game to do that.

[Anthile]

I've always wanted the ability to yell at dwarves.

Actually, the dwemers are not exactly dwarves and they were about the size of the other humanoid races (which is why you can wear their armor).
The more you know, etc.

[Serenegoose]

Actually, the dwemers are not exactly dwarves and they were about the size of the other humanoid races (which is why you can wear their armor).
The more you know, etc.
I knew that already, but I've never let a fact get in the way of an almost-witty quip.

[Raoul_Duke]

How a bard should sound and a rendition of the theme that will reduce you to a puddle :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z9TdDCWN7g&feature=channel_video_title
If already been posted my apologies

[Skalpadda]

That woman does not fear the reverb. Splendid voice though.

[Berzee]

I am at work with sadly-forgotten headphones so I can't listen to that, but I hope it's as bard-like as the video of the dude in the burlap sitting on some castle steps playing the Morrowind theme on his recorder.

[Anthile]

I knew that already, but I've never let a fact get in the way of an almost-witty quip.

Oh, I knew that you knew that. I was merely testing you.

[Serenegoose]

Oh, I knew that you knew that. I was merely testing you.

Inconceivable!

[Drake Sigar]

You didn't know that he knew that you knew?

[DigitalSignalX]

That woman does not fear the reverb. Splendid voice though.

That woman does not fear the reverb. Splendid voice though.

That woman does not fear the reverb. Splendid voice though.

That woman does not fear the reverb. Splendid voice though.

Agree.

Thing I learned today after 150+ hours of play: give your followers torches.

[PeopleLikeFrank]

SPOILERS PRESENT, OF COURSE.
Hahaha, I remember that quest. That's actually one of my favourite quests, overall, because it was designed in a very Obsidian-ish way. There were quite a few choices involved. My favourite choice was to trick the priest in question to following me to a certain cave, only to watch him getting easily hypnotised by that crazy cannibal lady, only to save him by taking them all out.


Nice. Interesting to know you can do that. I didn't. In fact, that was the moment I decided it might be my quest to become the worst person in all of Skyrim. Or maybe just eat all the priests. (Headed towards #3 on that count.)

[Raoul_Duke]

Agree.
Reverb fits the fantasy setting perfectly imo


Thing I learned today after 150+ hours of play: give your followers torches.
Argh! Followers will use them?

So much to Skyrim that you will blunder into. I assumed that since level ups no longer require you to sleep that sleeping was now superfluous. I was very wrong.


If you sleep long enough in a bed belonging to someone else but have gained access to, you will receive the "Rested" bonus which gives you 5% increased skill-up speed for the next 8 game hours. If you sleep in a bed you own, such as in player owned houses or if you rent a room at an inn, you receive the "Well Rested" bonus, giving you 10% increased skill-up speed for 8 hours. If you have a spouse and you sleep in the same house as them, you will receive a "Lover's Comfort" bonus which gives 15% increased skill-up speed for 8 hours.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Sleeping

[Serenegoose]

You didn't know that he knew that you knew?

Of course I knew! It was so simple. All I had to do was divine if they were the sort of person who would call a person out over a joke they knew was being made. A clever person would call out the joke as a meta joke, as they would know that only a great fool would make a joke about something they were ignorant of.

[Nalano]

Of course I knew! It was so simple. All I had to do was divine if they were the sort of person who would call a person out over a joke they knew was being made. A clever person would call out the joke as a meta joke, as they would know that only a great fool would make a joke about something they were ignorant of.

And now you explained the joke, ruining it FOREVER.

[Serenegoose]

And now you explained the joke, ruining it FOREVER.

ALAS.

Peanut?

[Nalano]

SPOILERS.

Jesus Christ, but the College of Winterhold is staffed and run by the laziest, shiftless motherfuckers on earth.

There are more professors than students, and while nothing is a secret, nobody collaborates on shit. I mean, the quest line for the Companions was short, but at least you got the idea that the Companions were a cohesive group that occasionally talked to one another, and that actually being good at fighting was one of the central tenets of being part of a fighter's guild.

By contrast, the professors in this center of learning are surprisingly incurious about following up on any leads at all on anything. Most of the quests are "pass notes between professors." Hell, they're not at all bothered with the fact that I've cast all of two spells the whole time, and them only as demonstrations.

"What, that guy? We don't trust that guy." Sure, you just let him order people around like he owns the place, despite you all being powerful wizards.

"What, that guy? We don't talk about that guy." Sure, you just gave him the lion's share of real estate in the college and didn't even bother locking your apprentices out.

"I'm sorry, what? You found an object of immense power and were contacted by a wizard cabal that are so powerful they don't even view me, the arch-mage, as worthy of concern? Sorry, I'm too busy to listen to you, for I am reading this book." You. Mother. Fucker.

"What, the tomes explaining the use of this all-powerful object? Stolen. No, we didn't bother attempting to recover them." WHY!?

"What, that staff of incredible power? We don't know where it is, we were just told exactly where it is." Aaaargh.

No wonder the Nords hate them. But then, the Nords hate everybody.

[soldant]

Bethesda used to make fairly long guild quest lines... then they took an arrow to the knee.

Seriously the quest lines for the College of Winterhold and Companions are pretty short, and the Bard questline isn't really a line. The Thieves Guild survives mostly by having generated quests. The Dark Brotherhood seems to be the only one with a decent amount of content. Kind of disappointed with the guilds, especially given the ridiculous amount of content elsewhere. The College of Winderhold is easily the worst of the lot, despite the massive potential there.

[Nalano]

I also couldn't help but notice that a lot of these powerful mages and lichs and crap are really, really susceptible to swords. It's as if they never expected somebody with upper body strength to come waltzing through their wizard-eating traps.

Ancano: I'm invincible!
Nalano: *oneshot*

I swear to god, I can almost see Nalano's (http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594703804006596413/3B3C3719091359A42C8065D13DD4773504E5EC47/) eye twitch. My only consolation is that most of the people Too Dumb To Live didn't.

[DigitalSignalX]

We can't forget endless book fetching for the grumpy librarian, and random customer object fetching for Mr too-busy-to-enchant-your-shit.

That said, if you revisit the college after some number of days there are some follow up quests to the main one. Big hint, don't sell the uber staff.

[Skalpadda]

Reverb fits the fantasy setting perfectly imo


There's nothing wrong with a bit of reverb at all, but no need to sound like you're sitting in the biggest cathedral in the Universe ;)

That video really shows what a shame it is that Bethesda couldn't be bothered to find some actual singers to play the various bards and tavern singers in the game. As it is it sounds like they just asked voice actors to sing, and it's not that it's bad but it could be so much better.

[Vexing Vision]

I love the bards actually - some are really good (the one in Solitude), while others are hilariously bad (most of the ones in the small villages). The varying quality really adds something.

[gundrea]

SPOILERS.

Jesus Christ, but the College of Winterhold is staffed and run by the laziest, shiftless motherfuckers on earth.

There are more professors than students, and while nothing is a secret, nobody collaborates on shit. I mean, the quest line for the Companions was short, but at least you got the idea that the Companions were a cohesive group that occasionally talked to one another, and that actually being good at fighting was one of the central tenets of being part of a fighter's guild.

By contrast, the professors in this center of learning are surprisingly incurious about following up on any leads at all on anything. Most of the quests are "pass notes between professors." Hell, they're not at all bothered with the fact that I've cast all of two spells the whole time, and them only as demonstrations.

"What, that guy? We don't trust that guy." Sure, you just let him order people around like he owns the place, despite you all being powerful wizards.

"What, that guy? We don't talk about that guy." Sure, you just gave him the lion's share of real estate in the college and didn't even bother locking your apprentices out.

"I'm sorry, what? You found an object of immense power and were contacted by a wizard cabal that are so powerful they don't even view me, the arch-mage, as worthy of concern? Sorry, I'm too busy to listen to you, for I am reading this book." You. Mother. Fucker.

"What, the tomes explaining the use of this all-powerful object? Stolen. No, we didn't bother attempting to recover them." WHY!?

"What, that staff of incredible power? We don't know where it is, we were just told exactly where it is." Aaaargh.

No wonder the Nords hate them. But then, the Nords hate everybody.

Winterhold really is one of the most accurate portrayals of University life I have ever seen. Also to be fair the Dunmer hated everybody and didn't let you practice necromancy either.

[Ravelle]

Completed the Thieves Guild Story line, started slow but got more interesting along the way.

[GothicEmperor]

I love the bards actually - some are really good (the one in Solitude), while others are hilariously bad (most of the ones in the small villages). The varying quality really adds something.
There's a skald in Markarth who really pulls of the Dragonborn song.

[Drake Sigar]

That video really shows what a shame it is that Bethesda couldn't be bothered to find some actual singers to play the various bards and tavern singers in the game. As it is it sounds like they just asked voice actors to sing, and it's not that it's bad but it could be so much better.
That's exactly what they did. Listening to Jason Marsden (aka Sven, aka ROSH PENIN) was one of the most painful experiences of my life. And then I met Talsgar the Wanderer singing Dragonborn's splooge and wanted to rip my ears off.

[Achkas]

Downloading now, looking forward to it! I'm hoping it will be better than Oblivion; admittedly, I did not have a gaming PC when I played Oblivion and tried to do so on PS3, so this should be a better experience anyway. Logged into my Steam last night to find out I won the wishlist competition for that day, so my 'get Skyrim on Christmas day and play it then' plan has been blown apart. Very happy/excited though!

[Ravelle]

Nothing is as painful as hearing Cicero talk, sweet lord.

[soldant]

Nothing is as painful as hearing Cicero talk, sweet lord.
Really? I didn't think his actor was too bad.

[Kadayi]

Logged into my Steam last night to find out I won the wishlist competition for that day, so my 'get Skyrim on Christmas day and play it then' plan has been blown apart. Very happy/excited though!

Congrats Duder. What else did you win?

[JamesG]

Logged into my Steam last night to find out I won the wishlist competition for that day, so my 'get Skyrim on Christmas day and play it then' plan has been blown apart. Very happy/excited though!

Out of interest, what happens when you win? Do you get a pop-up, and E-mail, or just discover a whole load of new games in your library?

[Ravelle]

I thought you could only win the game that's in the feature by visiting it every day, so it turns out they pick a random game out of your wish list?

[squirrelfanatic]

I thought you could only win the game that's in the feature by visiting it every day, so it turns out they pick a random game out of your wish list?I think you get the first 10 games from your wishlist.

[Smashbox]

I thought you could only win the game that's in the feature by visiting it every day, so it turns out they pick a random game out of your wish list?

Top 10 from your wishlist, I believe.

[Ravelle]

neat, should be more active then, there are still some games I want. :p

[orcane]

Agree.

Thing I learned today after 150+ hours of play: give your followers torches.
Erandur who was my first follower showed me that early. It can be slightly unhelpful if they carry the torch into a cave full of enemies while you're trying to sneak in, or if they just illuminate the snow around you so you see less than without it (as is the case most of the time around Nightcaller Temple, where you get him), but it's a nice touch. Should rename him to Erandur Torch-Bearer.

After over 80 hours I still can't decide who to help in the civil war. The Imperials wanted to cut off my head without reason (alright, considering I've been playing the game as a treasure/relic hunter who doesn't even stop at homicide, it would have been somewhat justified in retrospect) and suck up to Thalmor clowns, on the other hand Ulfric is an ass and wants to raze my favourite city. At least that's what it sounded like when I overheard him talking in Windhelm for the first time.

[Vexing Vision]

After over 80 hours I still can't decide who to help in the civil war. The Imperials wanted to cut off my head without reason (alright, considering I've been playing the game as a treasure/relic hunter who doesn't even stop at homicide, it would have been somewhat justified in retrospect) and suck up to Thalmor clowns, on the other hand Ulfric is an ass and wants to raze my favourite city. At least that's what it sounded like when I overheard him talking in Windhelm for the first time.

My character's reasoning was pretty easy. She's not a Thalos-worshipper, but she does have a strong dislike for the meddling Thalmor. It was quite natural that she'd end up on the headsman's block.

She's still a strong supporter of the Empire, and joined the Legion without second thought after meeting Ulric and his misguided rebellion. Especially after she saw what he did to Windhelm.

I never felt that there was a reason for my Oblivion-character to be imprisoned. It just never emerged, but both Morrowind and Skyrim came into their own by fleshing out my character's background story based on the fact how I reacted to various parties. :) Very nice achievement.

[Berzee]

After over 80 hours I still can't decide who to help in the civil war. The Imperials wanted to cut off my head without reason (alright, considering I've been playing the game as a treasure/relic hunter who doesn't even stop at homicide, it would have been somewhat justified in retrospect) and suck up to Thalmor clowns, on the other hand Ulfric is an ass and wants to raze my favourite city. At least that's what it sounded like when I overheard him talking in Windhelm for the first time.

Sort of the same for me...but as they say, "wisdom will be justified by her children" -- so when I couldn't decide between the two kingdoms, I took a look at their "children" -- their sergeants and common soldiers, since both of the leaders are pretty suspect. And I found out that when I talked to a random Imperial Legate in a random Empire Camp, or when I took a walk through an Empire city and talked to people in the street who supported the Empire, those were much more the sort of people I wanted to trust and support than any of the similar Stormcloak sergeants and commoners. The Jarls and the generals? No use for them on either side. The common folk? Give me (on the average) an Empire peasant, guard, innkeeper over a Stormcloak of the same any day.

Mostly it was Hadvar and that random Legate who decided me...especially the Legate, he had some pretty astute things to say about the Empire and his reasons for being part of it. I don't even remember his name. =P On the other side of things, there was an old war veteran in Windhelm I think, who despite being racist and Stormcloak was also quite pleasant to talk with.

Anyhow, this is my advice -- if you cannot see the wisdom in the figureheads, look for it in the trenches.

[Smashbox]

I agree about the civil war. I actually think it's great that there's a bit more nuance in the factions. I appreciate that there's no 'right' choice. Those Imperials are imposing their will on Skryim, supporting religious persecution and bleeding the country dry. On the other hand, Ulfric murdered the rightful king mostly to make a point. And he's a racist.

It's a nice change from something like Fallout New Vegas, with its evil Caesar's Legion slaving and killing their way toward the city. There wasn't much question about whether or not to support them.

I'm about 55 hrs in, and haven't seen it yet, but I'm hoping there's a 'third way' to resolve this conflict. (Don't spoil it if there is!)

[Achkas]

Out of interest, what happens when you win? Do you get a pop-up, and E-mail, or just discover a whole load of new games in your library?

Thanks, everyone! I got an email that said:


Hi achkas,

Congrats! You've won games in the Steam 2011 Wishlist Giveaway. You can learn more about it at Steam. Here are the games you won from your wishlist:

Mirror's Edge
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Sonic Generations
Costume Quest
L.A.Noire
Batman: Arkham City
Deus Ex - Human Revolution
Jade Empire
The Witcher 2
Psychonauts

If there are unreleased games on there, we'll add those when they become available. Please check your Steam account in a few hours to see that the games have been added.

Thanks for taking part in this! Happy Holidays from the Steam Team.

Then, under 'Manage Gifts and Guest Passes', all the games were there waiting to be redeemed. It's killing my bandwidth currently.

[Ravelle]

You got all of them?! holy crap.

[Smashbox]

Hi achkas,

Congrats! You've won games in the Steam 2011 Wishlist Giveaway. You can learn more about it at Steam. Here are the games you won from your wishlist:

That's really awesome. I've been hoping against hope (and rearranging my queue).

I know why it's not in the game, but I want a mod that will allow for battles in Skyrim. With dozens and dozens of soldiers fighting it out. We get to read about battles in the books scattered about - we should be able to play them!

Has anyone seen a mod like this for either of the new Fallouts or for Oblivion?

[Ravelle]

I know Fallout has a spawnrate mod that increases the amount of mobs that spawn , give it some time and we'll get it for Skyrim too.

[Wulf]

It's a nice change from something like Fallout New Vegas, with its evil Caesar's Legion slaving and killing their way toward the city. There wasn't much question about whether or not to support them. Ceasar's Legion was nuanced. Not to mention that there were obvious unethical shenanigans involved with Mr. House's egomaniacal, self-absorbed autocracy, and the NCR's fascist, big brother views, and their belief that the end result justifies any means (it's completely okay to kill large amounts of innocent people in cold blood if it's for some cause!). It's just that Skyrim beat you around the head with it. It was all... "I am Ulfric. I am RACIST. I am RACIST Ulfric. I am involved in a quest that says I am RACIST. And that I kill people in cold blood, which MANY NPCs talk about. Did you know that I am RACIST?" "We are the Legion, we bow to the Thalmor. The Thalmor are FASCISTS and all about ELVEN SUPREMACY. We're a bit BRAINWASHED AND CRAZY. We want to make the WORLD like that!" It boils down to... Stormcloaks: RACIST. Imperials: FASCIST. And there's no more to it than that. I mean, I liked the choices, don't get me wrong. I appreciate them. And I appreciate that there was no right answer. But let's be fair, it had the subtlety of a Pan-Galactic Gargleblaster. Whereas the approach in New Vegas was much more subtle, it put on a surface appearance but what laid below was very different than what you may see on superficial levels. And that shows by your views, I think. See, Skyrim takes the superficial and runs with it, there aren't any layers beyond that. But New Vegas was an unending web of lies and deceit. In the end, all of the factions looked equally horrible. The best choice I had was to leave the nation in the hands of a very "special" robot, one who was a rather simplistic thinker, who wanted to make himself more assertive. That definitely didn't seem like the right choice at all... but it was the choice I made. That's the trick with Obsidian though. They're all about subtlety because they're a development houset hat's almost completely staffed by writers, and not everyone is going to understand their games, and even then, not everyone is going to have the patience to do the digging that you need to to understand their games. You can come away from Obsidian games with completely the wrong perspective, because it's always the case that what lies beneath is very different to the superficial appearance of things. It's never that simple. If you make it that simple, then yeah... Caesar's Legion is absolutely evil with no redeeming qualities, the NCR is a shining bastion of good and peace, and Mr. House is just an honest businessmen who wants to make a living (and isn't as insane as his brother at all). But that's just what it is on the surface, superficially. I think that Bethesda are going in the right direction, but they still dumb the story down to appeal to the lowest common denominator. (An approach that I disapprove of (http://www.atomic-robo.com/2011/11/09/the-highest-common-demoninator/).) I know why they do it, they do it for the reasons I've made clear above: Not everyone gets a nuanced and layered storyline, some gamers just want things spelled out for them in obvious ways. To be honest, I think the nature of the dragons (and how it went so far beyond good/evil that that was no longer relevant) and Paarthurnax especially were far, far more nuanced than the sides in the Civil War were. In the Civil War, you just have to pick whether you want to side with fascists or racists, your decision as to what happens to Paarthurnax and the rest of the dragons... that's something else entirely. (And something that can be built upon.) I like what Bethesda are doing, but I do hope for more a more nuanced and subtle story next time. But I can understand why they wouldn't do that with any future games. Still, they'd probably sell more (http://www.atomic-robo.com/2011/11/09/the-highest-common-demoninator/) (to link that again) if they entertained the idea. Or they may sell less. Who knows?

[Wulf]

It's a nice change from something like Fallout New Vegas, with its evil Caesar's Legion slaving and killing their way toward the city. There wasn't much question about whether or not to support them.

Ceasar's Legion was nuanced. Not to mention that there were obvious unethical shenanigans involved with Mr. House's egomaniacal, self-absorbed autocracy, and the NCR's fascist, big brother views, and their belief that the end result justifies any means (it's completely okay to kill large amounts of innocent people in cold blood if it's for some cause!).

It's just that Skyrim beat you around the head with it. It was all...

"I am Ulfric. I am RACIST. I am RACIST Ulfric. I am involved in a quest that says I am RACIST. And that I kill people in cold blood, which MANY NPCs talk about. Did you know that I am RACIST?"

"We are the Legion, we bow to the Thalmor. The Thalmor are FASCISTS and all about ELVEN SUPREMACY. We're a bit BRAINWASHED AND CRAZY. We want to make the WORLD like that!"

It boils down to...

Stormcloaks: RACIST.
Imperials: FASCIST.

And there's no more to it than that.

I mean, I liked the choices, don't get me wrong. I appreciate them. And I appreciate that there was no right answer. But let's be fair, it had the subtlety of a Pan-Galactic Gargleblaster. Whereas the approach in New Vegas was much more subtle, it put on a surface appearance but what laid below was very different than what you may see on superficial levels. And that shows by your views, I think.

See, Skyrim takes the superficial and runs with it, there aren't any layers beyond that. But New Vegas was an unending web of lies and deceit. In the end, all of the factions looked equally horrible. The best choice I had was to leave the nation in the hands of a very "special" robot, one who was a rather simplistic thinker, who wanted to make himself more assertive. That definitely didn't seem like the right choice at all... but it was the choice I made.

That's the trick with Obsidian though. They're all about subtlety because they're a development houset hat's almost completely staffed by writers, and not everyone is going to understand their games, and even then, not everyone is going to have the patience to do the digging that you need to to understand their games. You can come away from Obsidian games with completely the wrong perspective, because it's always the case that what lies beneath is very different to the superficial appearance of things. It's never that simple.

If you make it that simple, then yeah... Caesar's Legion is absolutely evil with no redeeming qualities, the NCR is a shining bastion of good and peace, and Mr. House is just an honest businessmen who wants to make a living (and isn't as insane as his brother at all).

But that's just what it is on the surface, superficially.

I think that Bethesda are going in the right direction, but they still dumb the story down to appeal to the lowest common denominator. (An approach that I disapprove of (http://www.atomic-robo.com/2011/11/09/the-highest-common-demoninator/).) I know why they do it, they do it for the reasons I've made clear above: Not everyone gets a nuanced and layered storyline, some gamers just want things spelled out for them in obvious ways.

To be honest, I think the nature of the dragons (and how it went so far beyond good/evil that that was no longer relevant) and Paarthurnax especially were far, far more nuanced than the sides in the Civil War were. In the Civil War, you just have to pick whether you want to side with fascists or racists, your decision as to what happens to Paarthurnax and the rest of the dragons... that's something else entirely. (And something that can be built upon.)

I like what Bethesda are doing, but I do hope for more a more nuanced and subtle story next time. But I can understand why they wouldn't do that with any future games. Still, they'd probably sell more (http://www.atomic-robo.com/2011/11/09/the-highest-common-demoninator/) (to link that again) if they entertained the idea. Or they may sell less. Who knows?

(GAH! What happened there?! No paragraphs!)

---

Oh, and in case the nuances of the Legion aren't obvious: They're no more 'evil' than the Empire in Tamriel. For a time, in Tamriel, the Empire supported slavery, and that's pretty much the only horrible thing that the Legion does. They make a pretty speech about strength, but if you pay attention to what they do, and what they ask you to do, then you'll notice that all of the people they go after are actually people who've committed a whole bunch of criminal acts.

Yes, they stick them up on crosses and pikes, but many people (including Cassady) have made the point that they'd feel a whole lot safer with Legion patrols on the roads. In Legion controlled areas, crime goes way down, and people feel safer. The NCR are just spread too thin to give a shit, and Mr. House would only protect people who could pay for his protection (as has been made clear at many junctures). So whilst their methods might be an atrocity, they're the organisation that would keep people the safest.

So the choice of an NCR or a Legion controlled area would often be: You are a town who's been slaughtered by bandits (NCR), or you're a town with some interesting bandit-based decorations on your borders, but otherwise safe and happy (Legion). I'm not condoning what the Legion do, I'm just pointing out that they have elements that redeem them to a degree, as does Mr. House, as do the NCR. No faction is truly 'evil' or truly 'good.' It's far more complicated than that.

[Achkas]

That's really awesome. I've been hoping against hope (and rearranging my queue).

I know why it's not in the game, but I want a mod that will allow for battles in Skyrim. With dozens and dozens of soldiers fighting it out. We get to read about battles in the books scattered about - we should be able to play them!

Has anyone seen a mod like this for either of the new Fallouts or for Oblivion?

Sod's law has, however, meant that Skyrim has severe graphical problems on my PC :( If anyone might have come across, either in their own games or seeing the problem referenced in internet forums, jagged white/grey squares/triangles in place of textures and all over the screen, advice would be appreciated! I've posted screenshots and a description of the problem here --> http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?2283-Help!-Rotating-white-squares-in-Skyrim-(with-screenshots) Hopefully I'll be skyrimming soon!

[Nalano]

For a time, in Tamriel, the Empire supported slavery, and that's pretty much the only horrible thing that the Legion does.

Well, that and genocide, chemical warfare and doling out women as chattel.

Arguably, if you were really trying to find a way to argue on the Legion's behalf, you could say that the difficulty in living in a post-apocalyptic desert hellscape means that survival trumps all moral considerations, but that would only hold water if the NCR wasn't right there.

The problem with FONV was that the NCR was an obvious choice over the Legion. However, the autocratic dictatorship of House did give people greater pause when they were deciding who to back. (I still think it's an obvious choice: NCR at least gives lip service to personal welfare; House doesn't care if his people starve, but I digress).

The problem with Skyrim is that both sides are wrong. It's clear why anybody would want to get out from under a puppet regime as the Empire has clearly become, but should the Stormcloaks win and Skyrim becomes an independent nation, not only will non-Nords suffer from ethnic persecution, but it will be rolled over by the Altmer without effort because they have the strength of a far larger regime.

Should the Empire win out over the Stormcloaks, everybody suffers under ethnic and religious persecution until a larger empire-wide rebellion can manifest, which would be hard, considering most of the patriots were killed in the civil war.

[DigitalSignalX]

I too was on the fence for a long time, but after hearing about it from officers from both camps, I find most Legion officers play it solid with the bigger picture, which seems to have conveniently escaped most Nords attention span. All of Skyrim would be currently under the dominion's thumb if it wasn't for the legion, and their thumb is far, far worse then the empire. By making war, they only stab themselves, even if they win. The dominion will come and crush a divided empire all the more easily, including the north. So any freedom gained from insurrection would be temporary at best. This NUANCE is explained quite clearly if the player character spends enough time exploring all the dialogs from both sides. For every zealot narrow viewed encounter in both camps though, there is also a tempered opinion, even from some Nords that feel like fighting for independence and Talos oppression is a kneejerk reaction to rail against.

My character was an imperial though, and I'm curious if I choose Nord how much more or less slant the sides will take to my presence.

[JackShandy]

I was going full Stormcloak for ages. I mean, natives VS. colonizing force, I've read that history book. Then I go to Windhelm and it turns out Ulfric's super racist against Dark Elves. And I'm playing a Dark Elf. So now I'm stuck.

[Lukasz]

I was going full Stormcloak for ages. I mean, natives VS. colonizing force, I've read that history book. Then I go to Windhelm and it turns out Ulfric's super racist against Dark Elves. And I'm playing a Dark Elf. So now I'm stuck.

can't you just slaughter them?

[soldant]

The problem with Skyrim is that both sides are wrong. It's clear why anybody would want to get out from under a puppet regime as the Empire has clearly become, but should the Stormcloaks win and Skyrim becomes an independent nation, not only will non-Nords suffer from ethnic persecution, but it will be rolled over by the Altmer without effort because they have the strength of a far larger regime.
I like the fact that neither side is particularly appealing. The Empire is a shadow of its former self, and the Stormcloaks are racists who believe in Nord supremacy. But more than that the Stormcloaks just seem too self-interested and isolationist at times, which means they'd get eaten by the Thalmor along with the rest of the continent. And the Thalmor are just Elven Nazis.

Seems to me the Empire would be a better step towards unification and resistance, as opposed to a bunch of independent states.

[Berzee]

natives VS. colonizing forceAfter however many centuries Skyrim has been a province of the Empire, I think we're out of that chapter of the history book at least. =)

[Berzee]

Ulfric as obvious racist is useful as a way of giving some kind of glaring flaw so that he doesn't become Videogame Underdog Hero; but what I thought was the really interesting thing was Ulfric as guy who starts a second war because he's ticked off that the first one ended in surrender...and whose enemy in the second war is basically only his enemy because they wouldn't keep fighting as long as he wanted in the first war.

The whole "I fight so that my previous fighting will not be in vain" speech did not make me agree with his methods or want to join up with him necessarily, but I did feel at that moment that he was being a lot more sincere than when he talked about Talos and all that. Whatever other kind of a war it is, it is also a civil war about whether or not to potentially rekindle a Great War.

edit: But last time I played I spent 2 hours combing the land for the perfect outfit to wear to my 45-second wedding ceremony (plus earlier proposal) and collecting money for a house and furnishings fit for my miner-turned-shopkeeper wife...clearly I have more important things on my mind. I haven't actually done a whit of either side of the civil war quests....maybe in practice things turn out a lot different than I imagine from these scraps of dialogue I've picked up in the holds.

[Shane]

Well, that and genocide, chemical warfare and doling out women as chattel.

Who doesn't?

[Nalano]

Seems to me the Empire would be a better step towards unification and resistance, as opposed to a bunch of independent states.

Depends on how well the Thalmor fight a prolonged guerrilla war in an isolated mountainous region against an enthusiastic bunch of warlike natives with turf advantage, doesn't it? :P


Ulfric as obvious racist is useful as a way of giving some kind of glaring flaw so that he doesn't become Videogame Underdog Hero

True that, though it still felt tacked-on. I found it kinda funny that they made the first Stormcloak to talk to me care not a whit about my origins, and even after the diatribe of Ulfric's second-in-command about "Skyrim for the Nords" and how much he hates being ruled by an elf, he readily accepts the help of a Redguard.

[Berzee]

Haha, yeah -- one of my favorite things is that you can say things in the game like "Yes, outsiders like myself have no place here". Now excuse me while I go on to become a major player in every important faction in the land...in which I have no place.

[BobsLawnService]

I don't think you can hold a pre-medival equivalent world to the same moral standards of the modern world. The official Thalamor delegation I met were pretty putrid in terms of their racial purity and superiority as well. Given the recent atrocities commited on both sides during history and it didn't bug me at all.

[Nalano]

Haha, yeah -- one of my favorite things is that you can say things in the game like "Yes, outsiders like myself have no place here". Now excuse me while I go on to become a major player in every important faction in the land...in which I have no place.

Windhelm and environs, hometown of the Stormcloaks and nerve center of the "Skyrim for the Nords" movement, broken down by race:

Nords: 28
Non-Nords: 27 (10 Dunmer, 8 Imperials, 4 each of Altmer and Argonians, 1 lonely Breton)

If you're not a Nord and move into Hjerim, you equalize the balance.
If you're not a Nord, marry a non-Nord and move into Hjerim, the Nords are a minority.

Hell, if you don't count outlying farms or the ships in the bay and just count people within the town walls, the Nords are already a minority.


So the choice of an NCR or a Legion controlled area would often be: You are a town who's been slaughtered by bandits (NCR), or you're a town with some interesting bandit-based decorations on your borders, but otherwise safe and happy (Legion).

More like, "NCR wins, your town is vibrant and growing, though they have to pay taxes. House wins, your town is still plagued with banditry because the NCR have more important things to worry about, but they don't have to pay taxes. Legion wins, your town is wiped off the face of the earth."

I mean, joining the Legion results in two things:

1) Everybody dies.
2) Everybody young and male gets conscripted. Everybody young and female gets enslaved. Everybody else dies.

[soldant]

Depends on how well the Thalmor fight a prolonged guerrilla war in an isolated mountainous region against an enthusiastic bunch of warlike natives with turf advantage, doesn't it? :P
Haha, nice one, I'll pay that. Then again I don't think the Thalmor would really care about civilians or anything and would just wipe everything clean given the chance.

[Nalano]

Haha, nice one, I'll pay that. Then again I don't think the Thalmor would really care about civilians or anything and would just wipe everything clean given the chance.

'cuz the Russians, British, Mongols and Romans cared about collateral damage. ;)

[Zetetic]

Yes?

(Besides which there's something of a precedent for elves wiping out embedded man populations in Skyrim. And indeed vica-versa.)