Shall we talk about Skyrim?

[Ian]

It would be nice if there were even a couple of branching quests based on your "big story choice"/race combination. So if you're a dark elf but you turn out to be a hero for the Stormcloaks, rather than it softening their stance towards Dark Elves they then try to throw you in the slammer lest you encourage your compatriots to try and become more of an influence.

Or if you're an Imperial helping the Stormcloaks, say, they might try and turn you over to the Imperials in return for something, and the Imperials want to punish you for your "crimes".

As examples, those're hardly the most imaginative stories. Just ideas for the sort of thing that could've been done to make your racial choice feel more meaningful in a game that is about race to a reasonable extent.


The problem with Skyrim is that both sides are wrong. It's clear why anybody would want to get out from under a puppet regime as the Empire has clearly become, but should the Stormcloaks win and Skyrim becomes an independent nation, not only will non-Nords suffer from ethnic persecution, but it will be rolled over by the Altmer without effort because they have the strength of a far larger regime.

Should the Empire win out over the Stormcloaks, everybody suffers under ethnic and religious persecution until a larger empire-wide rebellion can manifest, which would be hard, considering most of the patriots were killed in the civil war.

This is why I've yet to make a choice. I think I'm leaning Stormcloak.

It's probably a naive view, but it seems to me that with Hammerfell, the Black Marsh and Elsweyr already fucked off the Empire is even less in a position to try and fight back at the Thalmor anyway. So give the Thalmor more fronts to fight on if they want to take everywhere over. And multiple difficult fronts. I don't know what Elsweyr's meant to be like without checking a wiki, but the Nords, Argonians and Redguards already gives them mountains, swamps/marshes and deserts (I think) to worry about respectively.

I suppose it just depends on whether if they focussed on one (Skyrim, say) the others would take the opportunity to try and hit them somewhere else, or if the likes of the Argonians and Khajit just want everyone to leave them alone.

[Zetetic]

In the lore of course, a newly independent Hammerfell has already managed to stave off an invasion by the Aldmeri Dominion. But the impression I get from Skyrim, is that the Nords are, by and large, much less competent than the Hammerfell Redguard.

When it comes down to it, I don't consider it a huge victory if by staving off Thalmor influence, the Empire were replaced by a number of relatively illiberal racist states. The Empire is deeply imperfect, but at least there's (sometimes) a rule of egalitarian sensible law.

(Also, if we're really getting into this, huge parts of Skyrim, the bits where people actually live as opposed to over-grandiosed villages in the snowy wastes, don't seem any more inherently defensible than Cyroddil.)

(Apologies if I'm harping on about it, but the game makes it rather hard to understand what the ostensible situation with the Thalmor really is in Skyrim - they've got agents in various high places, but they don't actually seem to be having any effect whatsoever on public worship of Talos, aside from leading one poor bloke on a deathmarch.)

[Ian]

(Also, if we're really getting into this, huge parts of Skyrim, the bits where people actually live as opposed to over-grandiosed villages in the snowy wastes, don't seem any more inherently defensible than Cyroddil.)

Presumably the point is more that the Nords would have a good opportunity to use the varying landscape to pick their battles? Not that an invader would have a great deal of trouble getting there and fucking shit up*, more that once they were there they'd really need to find a way to pick where to fight any battles.

Of the major, proper cities I'd imagine Whiterun would be pretty shafted, mind. Sure it's got mountains/hills that it backs onto but there's tonnes of open, flat land around it for an army to settle into and lay siege even if they didn't want to batter at the walls immediately.

* I have no idea what the borders of Skyrim are like, obviously in-game it's mountainous and stuff, is it that hard to get there in lore/the setting generally?

[Drake Sigar]

The way I see it, the Empire had their shot against the Thalmor. Maybe independence is the way rather than repeating the if at first you don't succeed approach.

[JackShandy]

The way I see it, to "Control" Skyrim, the Thalmor have to get a massive force over to the country and keep it there until the locals stop hating them (IE forever). I don't think they could ever honestly win. They'd make life super shitty for the Nords, definitely, but they could never stop all talos worship or whatever.

[soldant]

The way I see it, to "Control" Skyrim, the Thalmor have to get a massive force over to the country and keep it there until the locals stop hating them (IE forever). I don't think they could ever honestly win. They'd make life super shitty for the Nords, definitely, but they could never stop all talos worship or whatever.
Alternatively: kill everyone who isn't an elf. The Thalmor aren't exactly a friend to humanity, I wouldn't put it past them to just wipe resistance off the map. If the Thamlor brought the unified Empire to its knees, why would a loose confederation of states, presumably already weakened by war or internal conflict, suddenly be more likely to survive?

[Drake Sigar]

Alternatively: kill everyone who isn't an elf. The Thalmor aren't exactly a friend to humanity, I wouldn't put it past them to just wipe resistance off the map. If the Thamlor brought the unified Empire to its knees, why would a loose confederation of states, presumably already weakened by war or internal conflict, suddenly be more likely to survive?
Like Jack said, homefield advantage. The Thalmor were only fighting the men (and women) who enlisted in the Empire's army. Piss off the Nords in their own homeland and eventually the Thalmor will find themselves under attack from a massive overwhelming force comprised of everyday citizens even more zealous than them. As the Thalmor expend their power in these futile attempts for dominance over many years, the provinces will unify once again and create an even stronger Empire than before.

There's just no way the Thalmor can 'win' unless they create some kind of doomsday weapon.

[Vexing Vision]

There's just no way the Thalmor can 'win' unless they create some kind of doomsday weapon.

And I am quite certain what we're going to do for TES 6 :) Four years to find out!

Honestly though, the Valenwood Dominion development shocked me. I never expected them to start a war on the Empire, even when it was weakened - I would have thought that after the Oblivion Crisis, Hammerfall and Morrowind would prove difficult to control, but to have the Thalmor invade for religious reasons was not what I saw coming.

I do remain a huge fan of the Tamriel-lore. It's a fascinating world, and I like the political plot-twists over centuries.

[Ian]

Alternatively: kill everyone who isn't an elf. The Thalmor aren't exactly a friend to humanity, I wouldn't put it past them to just wipe resistance off the map. If the Thamlor brought the unified Empire to its knees, why would a loose confederation of states, presumably already weakened by war or internal conflict, suddenly be more likely to survive?

They've already been kept out of Hammerfell, they're not unbeatable. As has been said, homefield advantage is a big thing and being more numerous or more advanced is in no way a guarantee of even having a serious advantage, let alone a guarantee of victory. And even if the other races who've split away from the Empire were content to sit back and see what happened, I'd be surprised if there weren't those in Cyrodil prepared to try and secretly give aid to the Stormcloaks in an attempt to weaken the Thalmor.

As Drake Sigar said, if the Thalmor continued to be a big enough threat a new.... maybe not empire but certainly an alliance would be a possibility, under terms more suited to all of those joining it.

And by fighting seperate entities rather than one empire, you're also trying to anticipate the actions of a lot of different minds. You're not just attacking an Empire that's spread across different regions any more, you're potentially trying to take on several enemies at once which leaves more room to be caught out if you're not on your toes.

[/ill-informed speculation]

[Anthile]

I thought it was implied that the Thalmor want to completely wipe out all non-elf races.

[Serenegoose]

Well I think it's important to remember that two equal powers can have a war, one side can win and impose harsh penalties, and it won't take too long at all for the losing side to exceed those penalties and come back for a rematch. Avoiding the obvious example, I'll state the Second Punic War in which Rome was nearly brought to its knees after humbling Carthage in the First Punic War. Saying that the Thalmor won and banned worship of a God and so the Empire is a crippled puppet state may be a good summation of the present climate but it isn't indicative of even ten or fifteen years of recovery.

[Ian]

Question to people who know more about the lore than me, just been having a nose at some of the relevant bits on the wiki.
http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fourth_Era


4E 98 — The two moons of Nirn, Masser and Secunda, vanish for two years in what becomes known as the Void Nights.

Second Century

4E 100 — The Void Nights end, with the Thalmor taking credit for the return of Nirn's moons.

The Khajit credit the Thalmor as their saviors and Imperial influence in Elsweyr begins to wane dramatically.


4E 171 — The Great War begins with armies from the Aldmeri Dominion invading the Imperial provinces of Hammerfell and Cyrodiil.

After Titus II rejects an ultimatum to make massive concessions to the Thalmor, Aldmeri armies invade. An army led by Thalmor general Lord Naarifin emerges from hidden camps in northern Elsweyr and assaults southern Cyrodiil, flanking Imperial defenses along the Valenwood border.

Is it fair to say, then, that if push came to shove the Khajit would side with the Thalmor in a war? Or is it more that the Khajit didn't care either way and because of the moons thing they turned a blind eye to the Thalmor forces making camp within their border?

Or alternatively, I guess, that the two things are unrelated and that the "hidden camps" were hidden even to the Khajit.

[GothicEmperor]

Question to people who know more about the lore than me, just been having a nose at some of the relevant bits on the wiki.
http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fourth_Era
Is it fair to say, then, that if push came to shove the Khajit would side with the Thalmor in a war? Or is it more that the Khajit didn't care either way and because of the moons thing they turned a blind eye to the Thalmor forces making camp within their border?

Or alternatively, I guess, that the two things are unrelated and that the "hidden camps" were hidden even to the Khajit.
I think they just have some very influential allies amongst the Khajiit. Elsweyr isn't a monolithic country, it's several kingdoms. At least, that's what the case was when they were all ruled over by the Empire.

I do love that aspect of the setting, though, with the feudal system and all; very lifelike, reminds me a lot of the Holy Roman Empire.

[Nalano]

In the lore of course, a newly independent Hammerfell has already managed to stave off an invasion by the Aldmeri Dominion. But the impression I get from Skyrim, is that the Nords are, by and large, much less competent than the Hammerfell Redguard.

Yeah, that's the impression I got in conversation with the Alakir mercenaries: The resistance was alive and well, and the long arm of Hammerfell law was bringing the appeasers/traitors to justice.


reminds me a lot of the Holy Roman Empire.

...which was, of course, none of those things. :P

Consequently, I shouldn't be as happy as I am that they fixed the goddamn bookshelf bug.

[Ian]

What was the bug? I've never done much with bookshelves aside from sticking a few books and papers on shelves in my houses and so I've not run into a problem.

[Nalano]

What was the bug? I've never done much with bookshelves aside from sticking a few books and papers on shelves in my houses and so I've not run into a problem.

It was very easy to break the bookshelf such that it'd eat your books, render them unreadable, and be unselectable.

[Hensler]

Spoilers: My problem with Ulfric was that you can find documents early on showing that Ulfric's basically a tool of the Thalmor that they broke down through torture, but you can never call him on it. I'd have liked to blackmail his little rebellion with those documents.

[Nalano]

Spoilers: My problem with Ulfric was that you can find documents early on showing that Ulfric's basically a tool of the Thalmor that they broke down through torture, but you can never call him on it. I'd have liked to blackmail his little rebellion with those documents.

Spoilers

What, this (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak)?

I interpreted it as them saying that he's an "enemy of our enemy," and then admitting that only the status quo works for them: His only use is in fighting the Empire. If he should win or lose, he's no longer an asset.

[Serenegoose]

...which was, of course, none of those things. :P


Yes, excellent reference :D

This agglomeration which was called and which still calls itself the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire.
-Voltaire (and one of my favourite quotes of his, out of a life that produced many excellent quotes.)

[Hensler]

Huh. So that was the end of the main quest line. Not even a fat pile of loot for me? *sigh*

[Nalano]

Hrm. +alchemy enchants enhance potion potency and +enchanting potions enhance enchanting power, and both potions and enchants can enhance smithing output.

I've stumbled upon an infinite loop. My shit is getting more and more powerful, the more mats I can throw into constantly enhancing my abilities. I just doubled all my armor and weapons by chugging medieval Four Loko and wearing medieval rave bracelets.

[Bristoff]

Hrm. +alchemy enchants enhance potion potency and +enchanting potions enhance enchanting power, and both potions and enchants can enhance smithing output.

I've stumbled upon an infinite loop. My shit is getting more and more powerful, the more mats I can throw into constantly enhancing my abilities. I just doubled all my armor and weapons by chugging medieval Four Loko and wearing medieval rave bracelets.

This is pretty much the background for the "the game is too easy since I can just make insanely good items through crafting, then one-shot dragons on master" argument that's been raging since the release. Consensus is, that if you 'exploit' this you quite easily break the game for yourself. I recommend not abusing it.

[Ian]

With stuff like that I'm never sure whether it should be capped at some point or not.I think my issue is more with feeling it's a bit silly having a potion that can make you dead good at making swords in the first place* rather than thinking it should be impossible to stack various things to make yourself invincible. I just won't do that and the problem is successfully avoided.

* I realise what a dim thing this is to say when talking about a game where you can shout at people until they die and fight dragons and whatever.

[baboonanza]

Yeah, I think the idea of having cross-craft bonuses (+alchemy enchantment, +enchanting potions etc.) was a poor one. If just those were removed then the opportunity for exploits would be much reduced.

[Ian]

I meant to ask (and I'm as well asking in here at first as it's specifically in Skyrim I've noticed this), how dark do you guys find the dark areas of the game?

Reason I ask is that I've just got a new monitor. Now, on the old one I'd never understood the point of the mage light spell because I'd never been anywhere dark enough that I couldn't see. Now, with new monitor, if I'm indoors and go into an unlit room (like I have a couple of times in the Felgellow Keep, where I'm playing through at the moment) it's properly dark. But I'm guessing that this is how it's meant to be and that my last monitor wasn't tweaked properly. Or is it the new one that I need to tweak?

[Skalpadda]

There does seem to be some caps in place. I believe the max alchemy modifier you can have (without using glitches) is 4x +25% and the maximum damage reduction for both physical and elemental damage is 80%. Not that you need to get anywhere near those ceilings to make the game silly easy.

When I started a second character I limited myself to using the Nightingale armour and weapons and just crafted jewellery, which makes the game a lot more interesting.

edit: On the darkness thing, in most dungeons I can see everything but the darkest corners without any extra light sources but there are times when it gets proper dark and I need a torch or magelight to see anything. There also seems to be some oddity where light sources that cast shadows are only visible when you get close enough for shadows to be drawn (or something) meaning that some areas light up more as you move closer which is a bit weird.

[Zetetic]

I meant to ask (and I'm as well asking in here at first as it's specifically in Skyrim I've noticed this), how dark do you guys find the dark areas of the game? Reason I ask is that I've just got a new monitor. Now, on the old one I'd never understood the point of the mage light spell ...
Hmm, I hadn't really thought about that. There's no gamma tool in game or anything.

[Olero]

I haven't really looked for the answer yet, but I was wondering if it is possible to buy a house in Skyrim without:
A) having triggered dragons (so no talking to the Jarl of Whiterun for example)
B) having chosen a side (so no imperial / stormcloak picking yet)

I really wish to dump/nicely decorate my giant book collection (yeah, probably doesn't get the originality award I'm afraid), but I don't want to get involved in either the main quest or have to pick sides.

[Vexing Vision]

Yes. The only house that is tied to the Main quest, to my knowledge, is Whiterun. Solitude should be accessible no matter which side you are choosing. I don't know about Windhelm, which is a horrible city for anyone non-Nord. :)

[PeopleLikeFrank]

I think most of the other houses are buyable without touching the main or civil war storylines at all, though most of them do require doing a quest for someone else.


I meant to ask (and I'm as well asking in here at first as it's specifically in Skyrim I've noticed this), how dark do you guys find the dark areas of the game?

I'm a Kahjit, and have needed the 'see in the dark' ability exactly once. I don't think my monitor is miscalibrated - I think nothing is actually dark.

[PeteC]

I've bought the house in Whiterun without triggering any dragons. Speak to the Jarl, do whatever needs doing to be able to buy the property (three mini quests if I remember right) but don't go to defend against the dragon after that as that's what triggers the rest of the dragons to appear.

[Ian]

I'm a Kahjit, and have needed the 'see in the dark' ability exactly once. I don't think my monitor is miscalibrated - I think nothing is actually dark.

Hmm. Like I say, I didn't think my old monitor was set up wrong and I could always see everything, and yet in the dark areas on the new monitor it does seem to be areas that I'd expect to be a lot darker.

Dunno, will play a bit more and see.

[Berzee]

My monitor is a TV, and at least on there, I really had to pump up the brightness to be able to see well even inside Breezehome.

So, I think the deal is that the dungeons will be properly dark IF you have the darkness to the point where even a moderately torchlit house is murky. =P

[Berzee]

Yes. The only house that is tied to the Main quest, to my knowledge, is Whiterun. Solitude should be accessible no matter which side you are choosing. I don't know about Windhelm, which is a horrible city for anyone non-Nord. :)

There's also a house in Riften that you can get via helping enough folks in the city;
PLUS, if you marry someone you get to use their house too! So my recommendation is to find someone with a nice house and marry them (in the game, too).

[Drake Sigar]

I'm a Kahjit, and have needed the 'see in the dark' ability exactly once. I don't think my monitor is miscalibrated - I think nothing is actually dark.

Same here. On Oblivion I would have to use the night vision constantly, but in Skyrim I have no such problem. Never even needed to whip out a torch once.

[mrpier]

There's also a house in Markarth you get for free after a quest, it's not exactly cozy though.

[Nalano]

I haven't really looked for the answer yet, but I was wondering if it is possible to buy a house in Skyrim without:
A) having triggered dragons (so no talking to the Jarl of Whiterun for example)
B) having chosen a side (so no imperial / stormcloak picking yet)

I really wish to dump/nicely decorate my giant book collection (yeah, probably doesn't get the originality award I'm afraid), but I don't want to get involved in either the main quest or have to pick sides.

There are five houses. Only one requires you to pick sides in the civil war (and is just as well, because while it's the best house in the game, it's in a frozen hellhole surrounded by a cemetary and racist Nords). Two are in cities that embroil you in all sorts of insane conspiracies the moment you set foot in them. Another requires you to kill a dragon (but, really, it takes all of ten minutes and then you're Thane, congrats, collect Lydia on your way out), and the last is in Solitude.

[archonsod]

Hmm. Like I say, I didn't think my old monitor was set up wrong and I could always see everything, and yet in the dark areas on the new monitor it does seem to be areas that I'd expect to be a lot darker.

Dunno, will play a bit more and see.

Generally it's more murky than dark - you can usually see well enough to make out the passageway ahead and any large objects, but it's still dark enough that you're unlikely to spot tripwires, small objects, Skeevers, hidden loot and the like. For the most part I'm only using torches or magelight when I want a closer look at something.

[Berzee]

I prefer Candlelight to Magelight myself (so as not to need to recast it o'er and o'er)

[Drake Sigar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z9TdDCWN7g&feature=channel_video_title
If already been posted my apologies



My one-handed skill just increased to 100.
I had forgotten the joy of reading Youtube comments

[orcane]

There are five houses. Only one requires you to pick sides in the civil war (and is just as well, because while it's the best house in the game, it's in a frozen hellhole surrounded by a cemetary and racist Nords). Two are in cities that embroil you in all sorts of insane conspiracies the moment you set foot in them. Another requires you to kill a dragon (but, really, it takes all of ten minutes and then you're Thane, congrats, collect Lydia on your way out), and the last is in Solitude.
Can't get the "hellhole" house, at least not in a bugfree state. The murderer quest just won't trigger for me *cry*

Riften home is pretty nice but screw that town, someone should make a mod where you combine Riften with Fallout's Megaton, this time the decision whether to set off the bomb would be so different...

[Hensler]

You don't have to kill a dragon to get the Whiterun house.

[Ian]

I only managed to get the Windhelm house using some console command stuff, the one major bug I've run into. You can find it easy enough googling it, orcane. :) (And if not (and assuming you're playing it on PC) I can try and find the post that sorted it for me.)

[DigitalSignalX]

The house in Markarth has the best bookshelves, but the location is tedious, not to mention your butler is a lifeless block of wood. I think he has PTSD or something and just stares at the fire all day. And night. Unblinking. An arrow in his knee.


For Windhelm, I completed the murder quest (both), got all the local drama settled, and was never given the option. I never really wanted it, but my purse is likely several tons now and seems like I should spend it. Maybe because my race is imperial it's off the table? Have joined the legion since, so likely will never know till another play through.

[Nalano]

not to mention your butler is a lifeless block of wood

Apparently that's what people want (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?2296-Compelling-DLC-Companions-for-Skyrim.).



For Windhelm, I completed the murder quest (both), got all the local drama settled, and was never given the option.

Spoilers.

You have to go rather deep (four or five quests) into the Stormcloak side of the civil war before you're given the option. Right after you take over a Legion fort by freeing the Stormcloak dudes in it.

[orcane]

I only managed to get the Windhelm house using some console command stuff, the one major bug I've run into. You can find it easy enough googling it, orcane. :) (And if not (and assuming you're playing it on PC) I can try and find the post that sorted it for me.)
What I found are commands that enable the house and furnish it, but it's my understanding that this doesn't get rid of the murder traces?

More than the house I'd just like to do the quest though, it's silly that everyone is walking around in the city talking about "these poor girls" but I don't get to help them solve the whole thing because some stupid game script fucked up again :(

[Nalano]

What I found are commands that enable the house and furnish it, but it's my understanding that this doesn't get rid of the murder traces?

No no no, you use console commands to forward the quest past the part where it breaks, or to force the quest to start.

Then you buy, clean, and furnish the house through normal means.

[Hensler]

Why would you want to get rid of the murder traces? They make great flavor for when you inevitably turn the house into a rape-murder den with the nude patch and every female companion in the game...

[Nalano]

Why would you want to get rid of the murder traces? They make great flavor for when you inevitably turn the house into a rape-murder den with the nude patch and every female companion in the game...

I am so not inviting you to my christmas party.

[Wulf]

So here's a fun trick: Using disable then enable on a follower via the console updates their stats to your current level (scales them).

This is supposed to happen automatically, but it doesn't. Someone noticed this with an NPC who kept casting low level spells and shared, so I thought I'd do the same. I used it on Kharjo myself and he immediately started kicking more rear.

(Also, save first before doing this. Your follower shouldn't lose anything you've equipped them with, but you never know.)


Riften home is pretty nice but screw that town, someone should make a mod where you combine Riften with Fallout's Megaton, this time the decision whether to set off the bomb would be so different...

I'd bet some of the merchants out first, too, really. But yeah, I suspect I might do the same. The Black-Briars are terrible and I want nothing to do with them or their extended empire of corruption that seems to run throughout Riften. And the only people who try to stand up to them get threatened horribly.

I feel so bad for that one Argonian, the jewelcrafter. I wish there was a quest to get him the hell out of there and hook him up with the Grey-Manes to extend the choice they have on offer at their jewellery stalls. But that's what Riften is a lot of, for me. Feeling bad for the few characters there that I do like. So I just avoid the place like the plague. There are lots of places that need DLC to add completion/closure to areas and quests, but if the first bit of DLC centred around cleaning up Riften, I doubt I'd be able to stop smiling.

[Ian]

Even in a "five minutes of mayhem before I quit without saving again" sort of way I don't go on in-game killing sprees, but if I did Maven would be somebody I'd try to give a battering. Though I suspect she's invincible. :(

And good tip, Wulf. I'll have to find the command for that and give it a go. My questing's mainly done with Lydia, she could do with beefing up. I only got... er... whatever the woman's name by the Azura shrine as a follower quite recently. I'm still getting used to the fact that she lobs exploding fireballs at people. There I am happily slicing up some mage and then I'm engufled in fire. :D

How do you find the Khajit caravans? 'Cause I'd quite like to bring a non-human/elf to come killing with me but I don't think I've seen Kharjo since I did his quest.

[Olero]

Thank all of you for all the house info, I'm now the "proud" owner of Breezehome. Aptly named for the fact that it now is a breeze walking again, having dumped all the burdens of my inventory. Now I need to finally get the perk that makes it possible to sell my stolen items, for that is the other half of my inventory. And it's a good thing keys of Skyrim don't have any weight, or I probably wouldn't be able to move at all. Stealing keys and shooting arrows in knees sure keep me happy in Skyrim :)

[Ian]

I think the Markarth house is the only one I've got left to buy.

Need to go and clear out some bandits.

[perafilozof]

Here is something nice :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=841d-KxrkRM&hd=1

[mrpier]

Olero - doing small bits of the thieves guild questline will give you access to fences in most of the cities.

[Berzee]

Olero - doing small bits of the thieves guild questline will give you access to fences in most of the cities.

Alternatively, weaseling your way into the mage's college. But I too would really like to have those fence perks -- it's just that speech levels soooo sloooow even when I focus my training on it.

[Hensler]

Here is something nice :


On the one hand, I feel like I'm missing out on some really cool moments like these by playing an archer and killing dragons form a few miles away. On the other hand, I think those uncontrolled melee animations would get really old after you've seen them a few times. I know the backstabbing ones have.

[orcane]

No no no, you use console commands to forward the quest past the part where it breaks, or to force the quest to start.

Then you buy, clean, and furnish the house through normal means.
That's what I wanted to do, but it doesn't work. Right now you can get the script so thoroughly broken that the initial trigger never goes off and without the quest kicking off, you can't actually use the console to force it to start. People on UESP etc. are trying to find out why and there are some ideas that work for some people, but not for everyone. I don't see this changing until they release the construction kit, TBH.


Even in a "five minutes of mayhem before I quit without saving again" sort of way I don't go on in-game killing sprees, but if I did Maven would be somebody I'd try to give a battering. Though I suspect she's invincible. :(
She is essential, yeah. I really felt bad for the regular people in that town but there's nothing you can do other than helping them with minor quests.

Maybe I played too much Mass Effect, Alpha Protocol et al. but when I'm given a quest "get the debts of these people" and my only option is to be a thug and threaten and extort them instead of trying to reason with them or even paying their debts myself (have to do something with all that gold, right?), that really rubs me the wrong way. Skyrim's quests are way too binary for me to enjoy most of them, the fact that there's dozens of ways to accidentally break one or the other doesn't help.

[Ian]

I used the script to firstly complete the quest, secondly to (spoilers? if so, not a big one) remove the relevant NPC from the house and then thirdly to get the dialogue option to appear with the Jarl's mate to let me buy the house.

[Wulf]

@Ian

Kharjo's page (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Kharjo) on the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages wiki will tell you everything you need to know about him.

Legit way: Head to Dawnstar, Windhelm, or... Riften. Then wait in front of the town in periods of 12 hours and eventually the caravan will show up. There are two Khajiiti caravans, but that's the one that Kharjo is in.

Less-than legit way: Want to avoid the busy-work?

- Press ` (~ on US keyboards).
- Type: prid cd92d
- Type: moveto player
- Press ' (or ~) again.
- Talk to Kharjo.

Is Kharjo being uncooperative after completing the quest? Try this:

- Press ` (or ~).
- Type: prid cd92d
- Type: setrelationshiprank player 4
- Press ` (or ~) again.
- Talk to Kharjo.

All of the followers have pages on your wiki, so if Kharjo doesn't turn out to be your thing, then try another. I like Kharjo though because he's unusual - he's an honourable Khajiit. (He even specialises in heavy armour!) So that makes him valuable to me. Though, really, the other Khajiiti follower is also unusual (he's quite a powerful mage), buuut... he's kind of a jerk. Or at the very least far too overconfident.

Upgrading characters:

- Make a static save before doing something like this.
- Make sure you have your character in view.
- Press ` (or ~).
- Click the follower you have in view, make sure you're not clicking something in front of them. (This isn't me being patronising, you wouldn't believe how often I've accidentally clicked on a leaf, a blade of grass, or something seemingly invisible in front of a character. It never hurts to check.)
- Type: disable
- If you've done it right, they'll disappear. Don't worry, that's normal.
- Type: enable
- If all has gone well, your character will reappear in upgraded form, complete with whatever you've equipped them with.
- If anything has gone wrong... no worries! Load the static save you made and try again.

If you have problems then I or someone else in the thread will likely help.

Anyway, I'm rather fond of Kharjo for another reason, too. His specialisations are: Heavy Armour, One-Handed Weapons, Archery, and Block. So, equipping him with a full set of Legendary Orcish armour (including shield) with enchantments, an enchanted glass sword, and an enchanted bow, along with having him upgraded?

He kicks serious arse. It's insane.

Kharjo has saved me from so many atronachs that it's not even funny.

(SPOILERS.)

And he was instrumental in helping me deal with that teleporting boss. A lot of Unrelenting Force shouts from me, and a lot of deadly ranged arrows from Kharjo saw him downed quickly even on a higher difficulty. Frankly, I'd even dare say that Kharjo probably has the best AI set of any character I've seen thus far. If only because he has heavy armour and he actually frickin' blocks. That is a thing that he does.

(SPOILERS END.)

Unlike J'zargo, who likes to run up to things and punch them, and cast low level spells. Sigh. When the construction set comes along, I really need to fix him.

Oh! Before I forget.

This is important! I needed you to catch this if you're skimming. Once you've used the console, it'll disable achievements but only for that session. So once you've done what you need to do to acquire and upgrade your character, close and reopen Skyrim. Or, if like me, you just don't give a damn about achievements, then don't bother.

[Ian]

Ta for the infobomb, Wulf. :)

I've got tonnes of dragon bits so I might even make him some dragon armour. We'll look quite the pair, a scar-faced Imperial chick and a kitty, both rocking some dead dragon.

[Nalano]

I've got tonnes of dragon bits so I might even make him some dragon armour.

But it's SO UGLY

[X_kot]

+1 to Wulf for that enable/disable trick - I am sick and tired of Sven dropping at the slightest provocation.

[Ian]

But it's SO UGLY

I've obviously only seen it on my Imperial lady in-game, but aside from the inexplicably mismatching helmet I find it looks okay. It might be because it's on a more slender frame, dunno.

Anyway, functionality and all that. :) I'm only using mine until I can make some damn daedric armour.

[DigitalSignalX]

I wish you could make ebony and daedric light armor. The heavy is just too chunky for my taste. The dragon scale light is ugly, but functional.

[Ian]

I'd say my favourite-looking craftable armour (I've yet to see a set of daedric in-game) is probably dwarven or elven.

[Serenegoose]

I'd say my favourite-looking craftable armour (I've yet to see a set of daedric in-game) is probably dwarven or elven.

I'd agree. I think that the elven armour looks particularly good on the elves themselves, since it really accentuates the excessive angular features they sport.

[Drake Sigar]

Anyway, functionality and all that. :) I'm only using mine until I can make some damn daedric armour.
The Daedric set always bothered me a little. Why would your character walk through Whiterun gates wearing the armour of a sworn enemy of Tamriel? It's like walking through France wearing a swastika overcoat. I guess you could say after two hundred years when it comes to describing Daedra, the residents of Tamriel haven't the foggiest. But then shouldn't the random encounter Daedra hunters on the road have some idea? It's their job.

Oh, and I can't take myself seriously when I look like Sauron's lesser known brother Bert.

[Wulf]

I like Wolf armour because of the theme it has going.

...what?

Though I'm also fond of Orcish. Practically, Orcish makes sense when a Khajiit wears it. If you put it on a Khajiit and then look at them then you automatically think "Yes, that makes sense!" ... or you may not, since you might not be aware of how surprisingly flexible the feline spine is. Unlike ours, which is rigid like a tree.

See, the thing with Orcish armour is that it's scalemail. Well, no, it's not. It's sort of scalemail. It's made up of lots of slatted plates! That's what it is. That doesn't make it platemail though, either. Platemail is something else entirely. ...is there even a name for what Orcish armour is? Can I just go with scalemail for now? Okay, scalemail.

Now, consider that it's just lots of slats bound together with leather at the back...

SUDDENLY - you have armour where a Khajiit can actually pull off a Matrix move and bend over backwards if they have incoming. Since they can probably do that, like cats can. I imagine them doing this anyway, as part of their natural feline agility. The reason you can't hit a Khajiit all that easily is because they roll with your blows like a boss, like no other sapient critter in Tamriel can, because ENVY THE SPINES.

Therefore, Orcish armour just feels right. I was attached to Wolf armour for the longest time, but that was selfish, because I couldn't stop thinking of how my Khajiit must feel, all trapped in completely inflexible armour like that. And most armours do look inflexible. In fact, the only other one that's scalemail-ish like Orcish is dragon armour, I think. So that gives me an upgrade option when I get there. I'm just going to skip Ebony and keep going with Orcish for now because it just looks so, so right on a Khajiit.

In fact, I think there's even a lore precedent for this. I'm sure there is... but I forget what it was called. I know the Jewel of Anequina was mentioned in it. (I like reading the books in game!) And the Khajiit artist who was speaking of one of the great Khajiit wars mentioned that originally they had Nord advisors, and the Nords dressed them up in incredibly inflexible armour. And they were losing badly, so they sent their Nordic advisors back to Solitude and decided to do their own thing.

Their own thing was guerilla tactics in flexible armour. That actually worked. And they won their war in no time flat. This was actually pretty funny to me, really, since the Nords seem to like war but they're not actually as good at it as they could be, nor do they rock at tactics. The Nords are just very, very strong... well, mostly they're strong, but I can still one-punch every Nord there is in every bar brawl I've done due to my insane Unarmed stacking. So I'm not actually sure what it is Nords are good at anymore. Shouting maybe?

Well, that was entirely too much rationalisation and overthinking, but hopefully it'll be entertaining to read.

[Skalpadda]

The only light armour I've found so far that looks good is the Nightingale stuff. Cannot stand the dragonscale or glass stuff and the elven set makes you look like a Christmas decoration. Is there a set for the Dark Brotherhood?

On the heavy side though, I like both the Dwemer armour and the ebony sets. Don't use heavy myself but at least Lydia gets to look mean.
http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/1102/skyrim3.jpg

[Berzee]

Re: Dark Brotherhood Armor: There's a pretty awesome set if you do the SPOILERSARETHESESTILLREALLYNECESSARYDestroy the BrotherhoodENDSPOILERS quest but I'm not sure if the Dark Brotherhood quest gives you anything good...going to probably join up with them on my sneakthief (except that he prefers to solve every problem with Illusion magic so I'm not sure how good a fit that will be).

[perafilozof]

The Death of an Ancient Dragon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c867cdIKL4s&hd=1

[Drake Sigar]

Is there a set for the Dark Brotherhood?
Yes, and it accentuates your bum like Ned Flander's ski suit, so make sure you don't play a male.

[DigitalSignalX]

Great vid pera

I'm using the thieves guild leather atm. When you're 50 with lots of nice pots, it doesn't really matter much what you're wearing 90% of the time except in big boss fights.

[Ian]

The Daedric set always bothered me a little. Why would your character walk through Whiterun gates wearing the armour of a sworn enemy of Tamriel? It's like walking through France wearing a swastika overcoat. I guess you could say after two hundred years when it comes to describing Daedra, the residents of Tamriel haven't the foggiest. But then shouldn't the random encounter Daedra hunters on the road have some idea? It's their job.

Oh, and I can't take myself seriously when I look like Sauron's lesser known brother Bert.

In the case of Whiterun they already consider you a hero of sorts, but obviously you mean in general with Whiterun just as an example and... well, I dunno. I suppose I'd never thought of it. Of course the people who know about armour will know you had to slaughter a few daedra to get it so they might let you off with it.

Genuinely interesting point though. No doubt I'll ponder on that more than I should. :)

[Skalpadda]

There's a quest where you come across a note from a man who thought a Chaurus might have been a Daedra, so I would assume most common people don't know much about them. There are certainly priests, scholars and mages who should know better though.

Personally I think the set just looks far too silly and out of place.

[Wulf]

Yes, and it accentuates your bum like Ned Flander's ski suit, so make sure you don't play a male.

...

Uh.

All of the light armour suits do this. All of them. And to a huge degree. I couldn't help but notice over countless loading screens how much on display that Khajiit's or Bosmer's buttocks were. I didn't object too much, mind you. I was more amused by it than anything.

But yes, all of them do that. Unless you're in heavy armour, prepare to put your butt on show.

[Ian]

This is why there need to be more cloak options, as a seperate item of clothing/armour. I like cloaks. :(

[Ravelle]

Light armor doesn't have a cool smithing tree, Leather, studded and then glass and light dragon armor which to me look all kind of dull, I can make glass armor which is better than my Nightingale armor but the hood and cloak just looks way more cooler.

[Hensler]

I think a mod to let you put cloaks over your armor would give the best of both worlds. It was in one of the other Elder Scroll games, or maybe it was Fallout3/NV.

[Wulf]

There have been some really fun Brotherhood of Steel armour sets which have cloaks. My personal favourite mod was the one that used the BoS armour from Tactics (loved that armour, so much). And that, I think, had a cape. Not to mention that it was by far and wide the best looking armour I'd seen in pretty much any sci-fi game, the 3D imagining of it was pretty awesome. (Though there was another variant of it that was less awesome.)

Then again, actually... the BoS armour might have only had a loincloth and buttcape. In fact, I'm certain that was the case. But that'd be fine for what Ian wants. :P

As for me, I don't mind all the butts on display. It's fairly hilarious, and as a gay bloke I really have no objections. I am entertained however that absolutely everyone in Skyrim seems to have a perfectly rounded butt. Hooray for armour homogenisation.

[Skalpadda]

Apologies if this has been linked already but I'm not about to trawl through 80 pages to check.

Remembered the other day that Bethesda has a Nick Breckon-powered podcast thingamajig and decided to check if there was anything new there since last I had a look (probably around the time FO:NV came out). Turns out there are four episodes of interviews with various artists and designers of Skyrim and quite good ones too. The audio one is especially interesting.

http://www.bethblog.com/podcast/

[Wulf]

So, here's a thing. The werewolf fear stops being useful after level 25, as it only works on foes up to that level. It's like the werewolf is designed to lose its usefulness early on in the game. When I get the CK that'll probably be the first thing I fix, giving the werewolf the armour rating of whatever armour the player currently has, scaling the werewolf's health by player level, and having the fear work on foes up to any level.

But that his fear doesn't work any more means that I actually have to start dealing with more things now via my Khajiit's fists. I got to where I did mostly via crafting skills, and now I kind of wish I hadn't levelled up so damn fast. At this point, strange as it may sound, I'm sort of tempted to just knock my character's level down by 10 or so. So that way scaled enemies (of where there are a surprising amount) will be affected by the fear again.

But yeah, once I lost the ability to use that fear, it actually kind of began to set in just how many crazy, genocidal groups are actually out to kill me/my friends. Before I could just use fear to chase them off. So it's a shame that I no longer have the utility of that. It's funny, I run from the dragons and I fear potential fights, and now that I actually have to fight things I'm losing interest in the game. That's... probably weird.

It wouldn't be so bad I suppose if fist-fighting worked like in Morrowind and bar brawls, where it just knocked people out instead of outright killing them. I suspect mods will do this, though, and I look forward to it. Mods turned non-lethal fighting in New Vegas into an art form. You had even had stun lasers and beanbag rounds. But yeah, definitely playing Skyrim less now that the fear's working less. I suppose that's strange, but it's how I am.

[Skalpadda]

Doesn't that make sense though? A lowly bandit thug might be scared to death of a werewolf but a much more powerful marauder or a master vampire would be far more confident. Or is it just that's you'd simply prefer not fighting at all? Investing in illusion and sneak could help you there.

[Ian]

At one point I levelled past what I could actually fight because I was doing too much crafting but once I knocked that on the head for a bit and just fought more carefully for a while.

And I'm quite happy for badass enemies to stop being scared by fear effects. The stronger they are, the more likely they are to have encountered and survived Skyrim's more powerful wildlife. And I hate it in games that have Fear effects when I'm meant to be a badass but then run away like a sissy because something shouts at me.

[Anthile]

So, here's a thing. The werewolf fear stops being useful after level 25, as it only works on foes up to that level. It's like the werewolf is designed to lose its usefulness early on in the game. When I get the CK that'll probably be the first thing I fix, giving the werewolf the armour rating of whatever armour the player currently has, scaling the werewolf's health by player level, and having the fear work on foes up to any level.

But that his fear doesn't work any more means that I actually have to start dealing with more things now via my Khajiit's fists. I got to where I did mostly via crafting skills, and now I kind of wish I hadn't levelled up so damn fast. At this point, strange as it may sound, I'm sort of tempted to just knock my character's level down by 10 or so. So that way scaled enemies (of where there are a surprising amount) will be affected by the fear again.

But yeah, once I lost the ability to use that fear, it actually kind of began to set in just how many crazy, genocidal groups are actually out to kill me/my friends. Before I could just use fear to chase them off. So it's a shame that I no longer have the utility of that. It's funny, I run from the dragons and I fear potential fights, and now that I actually have to fight things I'm losing interest in the game. That's... probably weird.

It wouldn't be so bad I suppose if fist-fighting worked like in Morrowind and bar brawls, where it just knocked people out instead of outright killing them. I suspect mods will do this, though, and I look forward to it. Mods turned non-lethal fighting in New Vegas into an art form. You had even had stun lasers and beanbag rounds. But yeah, definitely playing Skyrim less now that the fear's working less. I suppose that's strange, but it's how I am.

To be fair, unlike vampirism, which is mostly terrible, there are no real drawbacks to lycantrophy. In fact, it's worthwhile just for the disease immunity.

[DigitalSignalX]

I was on my way to being a vampire when I did the companions quests and accidentally discovered that it "cures" you. (vampire wolf would have been lovely). Now I've finally gotten cured again of being a werewolf, and had to spend a while looking for more vampires to re-infect me. I'd almost given up (having already cleared all their hideouts) but got lucky in a random encounter and now it's back on again. However, changing the game timescale to 1/2 default I think has messed up the number of days required for each stage to progress. It's been 3 day/night cycles and I still don't have the option to "feed" when I select pickpocket on a sleeping NPC. I get the reduced stamina debuff during the day, but have no idea how to tell at what stage I'm at.

I really want night vision and to feed on sleeping people. Does it kill them? I want to feed on the old alchemist dying guy in Windhelm as an act of mercy.

[Ian]

I've got all the houses now. :)

Game needs more armour stands though. I was hoping the Markarth house would have more than one. ¬_¬ I would totally download a mod that gave one of the houses a room with five or six more armour stands. :D

[DigitalSignalX]

I've got all the houses now. :)

Game needs more armour stands though. I was hoping the Markarth house would have more than one. ¬_¬ I would totally download a mod that gave one of the houses a room with five or six more armour stands. :D

After seeing a screenshot of an unfurnished house, definitely agree. A bed, and then nothing else but armor stands, weapon racks, and bookshelves. Sort of like a museum with a sleeping room would be lovely. *waits for SDK*

[Bristoff]

Any house with a decently sized library would be nice. Just rows and rows of books on shelves.

[Smashbox]

Any house with a decently sized library would be nice. Just rows and rows of books on shelves.

Now that's a great idea!

[Ian]

Having looked on UESP it looks like it's not too tricky to add your own furniture. Totally turning the upstairs of the Windhelm House into even more of an armoury than it is by default.

[Spakkenkhrist]

Probably warrants a thread of it's own, this is a fantastic piece of work, the UI is now useful/useable!

http://www.skyrimnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=3863

[Tikey]

Awesome. Maybe now it's time to buy it.

[Vexing Vision]

So someone on the Nexus is working on a multiplayer mod.

While it would probably have to have resting/waiting/fast-travel disabled, this intrigues me greatly - ever since Daggerfall, I would have loved to explore the world with a real adventurer party.

Friendly fire is totally a must.

Would be totally fine if only one of us gets to be Dragonborn.


Curious to see if that's going to be A Thing (tm) in one or two years.

[Shane]

I have sunk about 60 hours into the game and the shine is beginning to wear off. No matter how ridiculous it may sound, I am finding Skyrim and games like CoD to be two sides of the same coin. While games like Call of Duty involve tunneling the player through an explosion of set-pieces and cut-scenes with him having little control over the experience. Skyrim, to me, seems to be essentially implementing the same philosophy. Almost all quests are about going from point A to B to kill something or to kill something and then fetch a thing. If you think about it, the entire game is structured this way, A to B to C is the one way to go and the only thing you can do is decide when you go to the next point.
The things you do after getting off the road is superficial like background scenery, the people you kill, the dungeons you clear are just 'things to do' otherwise having little significance and are ultimately are just a statistic. Bethesda may have been able to put in enough millions to make the game world seem detailed and expansive but they were unable to add any depth to it all just like the shit Bioware churns out.

Another thing I dislike about it is that it lacks personality and atmosphere. When you play games like STALKER, Deus Ex, The Witcher, Metro 2033, Dark Souls you can feel as if the world itself is a character rather than just a prop. The world in Skyrim feels bland and sterile, a testament to that is the quest 'A night to remember', when I found out that the shady guy was actually a Daedric Prince, I didn't feel anything whatsoever and was more like "Okay, what's next?". That lack of atmosphere makes big reveals and twists seem mundane and trivial.

Does this mean I hate it? No, actually it's one of the best games I have ever played but I like it in the same sense I like Just Cause 2, it's mindless fun.

[Wooly Wugga Wugga]

It's definitely not perfect but somehow it manages to be gerater than the sum of its parts. It's definitely the first game in far too long that I'll say I'm getting addicted to. I feel compelled to clear out just one more dungeon, craft better armour, finish one more quest...

Then my wife is telling me that it is 1am and she is going to kick my arse if I don't get into bed because I have work in the morning.

I feel it would be a little rich to criticize the game too much since that is the case.

[Smashbox]

Per the armor discussion: I would really like to see a mod that would allow for greater user appearance customization, including cloaks, colors, and heraldry. It would be really fun to have a custom shield/cloak to justify my killing.

[Shane]

It's definitely not perfect but somehow it manages to be gerater than the sum of its parts

True. I guess, what I said earlier wasn't really a criticism but more like what I had expected from the game.

[Smashbox]

What is this I don't even...

[DigitalSignalX]

I wasn't very impressed with skyrim its an ok game nothing to shocking or standout about it but if i just smoke some splitarillos with that special ingrediant i can blaze through this game at super speed.

I know some people find posting pictures-as-a-reply annoying.. but still.

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss209/yonyoiscool/Third-party-facepalm.jpg

[Drake Sigar]

I wasn't very impressed with skyrim its an ok game nothing to shocking or standout about it but if i just smoke some splitarillos with that special ingrediant i can blaze through this game at super speed.


What is this I don't even...
I laughed heartily.

[Skalpadda]

No matter how ridiculous it may sound, I am finding Skyrim and games like CoD to be two sides of the same coin. While games like Call of Duty involve tunneling the player through an explosion of set-pieces and cut-scenes with him having little control over the experience. Skyrim, to me, seems to be essentially implementing the same philosophy. Almost all quests are about going from point A to B to kill something or to kill something and then fetch a thing. If you think about it, the entire game is structured this way, A to B to C is the one way to go and the only thing you can do is decide when you go to the next point.

Your own perception of the game is yours and I won't argue that you're wrong in how you feel about it, but drawing a parallel to a linear war porn game like CoD seems a little nuts to me. I can see an argument for each individual dungeon being too linear (and I'd agree, though I have enjoyed most of them very much) but even then you have a vast amount of options in how you approach what you face in them, from the myriad of combat options to avoiding combat as much as possible through stealth, distraction, pickpocketing, stealing or using calm and fear spells.

In games like CoD you never have a choice in what to do next, often down to "shoot this specific thing at this specific time or the game just stops until you do". In Skyrim, if a quest tells me to do something I don't feel like doing I can just not do it and the game will carry on just fine. Go talk to the Greybeards? Nah, I'm going to go punch a bear in the face for a while, then I'll spend an hour decorating my house with Dibella statues and piles of books.

I just cannot see the parallel except on a very micro level where a quest requires a certain set of events to trigger in a specific order, but I have a hard time seeing how you would avoid that completely (or even why you would want to).


Another thing I dislike about it is that it lacks personality and atmosphere. When you play games like STALKER, Deus Ex, The Witcher, Metro 2033, Dark Souls you can feel as if the world itself is a character rather than just a prop.

I think this is a much more useful criticism. If you don't like the world itself in a game that's essentially about presenting you with a world to explore and toy with you're not going to have much fun with it or feel inclined to engage with the possibilities on offer.

For me it's very much the opposite; Skyrim has engaged me in a way that few other game worlds have and which both Oblivion and Morrowind completely failed to do. It's a setting I very much like to explore and spend time in, with rules and mechanics I enjoy playing with.

[Ian]

Shane: Well, surely aside from any game that is purely a sandbox could be compared to something like COD?

The difference is, if you don't want to just hit the next thing on the list in Skyrim there's absolutely nothing to stop me doing so. In COD that would mean turning the game off.

[casimirsblake]

Shane is on to something. A lot of the quests in Skyrim (and, in fact, pretty much all of the 20-odd that I've done so far, yes I'm slow) have been utterly linear with no choices.

Even worse, ALL of the dungeons have been totally linear. They are certainly more varied when compared to the copy-paste shenanigans of Oblivion (Nehrim has some vastly superior dungeons by comparison), but the player is never given a directional choice beyond the odd side-room with some items in.

[Zorganist]

I totally agree that the story is far too linear, which may be the reason I'm obsessing so much over the Imperial/Stormcloak choice- being the only such decision you have to make in the game, but disagree with the dungeons; I don't particularly mind that they're linear, considering that I'd always go through every path available, and be annoyed if one became inaccessible after taking an alternative route.

None of the dungeons have felt too forced into lineraity so far, but was has annoyed is some the inconsistenices in some fo the designs; beyond sharing the same resources, none of the Draugr tombs, and barrows, for example, are at all alike- some are man-made mounds, some have massive stoneworks outside, some are just in random caves and none of them have any similarity in terms of the layout and design of the burial chambers. It's fairly obvious that all of the dungeons have been designed individually, with no consideration for consistency between them.

[Nalano]

None of the dungeons have felt too forced into lineraity so far

Really? They're just about as linear as you can get. There are no alternate routes, there's no real direction to go but forward. You get that "gamer savvy" where if you see an expert-locked door, you know it's not important to clearing the dungeon, and that's not good.

[Zorganist]

Really? They're just about as linear as you can get. There are no alternate routes, there's no real direction to go but forward. You get that "gamer savvy" where if you see an expert-locked door, you know it's not important to clearing the dungeon, and that's not good.

I'll admit that they're linear, but none of the dungeons I've been into so far have felt like they shouldn't be, it makes sense for them to be linear. The only place I've been to so far that I've been to so far that didn't feel as if it should be more branched was the Dwarven ruin in Markarth, but I think that did well enough giving the impression that it was multi-linear. That being said, I haven't been to Labyrinthian yet and I'll be quite sorely dissapointed if it isn't as confusing and 'labyrinthian' as the name makes it out to be.

[Wulf]

@Nalano

I was actually thinking this earlier. It's not meant in a nasty way but simply that I could see that someone had written down some design documentation on how dungeons must flow, and that everyone designing a dungeon should do things that way.

1. An entrance, everything starts with an entrance.
2. A cursory bit of setting up. (Some mobs chatting, a book, some scenery, what have you.)
3. Put 'trials' along the way: A few mobs, a few traps, you know the drill.
4. Ensure that along the route, you have no good loot just lying around. Just generic crap.
5. Put the good stuff behind locked doors or in locked containers so they know when to stop.
6. Have a boss or goal at the end of a dungeon.
7. Have a small tresure trove past that.
8a. Have a shortcut back to the entrance that you wouldn't normally be able to get to.
8b. Or have an exit that leads to a locked door that you normally wouldn't have been able to get through.

- Be sure that the dungeon flows in a smooth line from points 1 through 8.
- Keep in mind that branching pathways would just be confusing, don't do it.
- It should always be 100% clear where the player is supposed to go.
- Ensure that the dungeon can only be played 'the correct way.'

Find me a dungeon in Skyrim that doesn't obey that ethos and I'd be surprised. Again, not being negative, really. I'm just making an observation. It seems that there were a number of people working on dungeons in Skyrim as I can always discern the style, but it seems that every one of them had the above drilled into their heads, and likely had it selotaped to their monitor. It's a stringent set of rules that, so far, I've seen obeyed without error.

[Wulf]

For me it's very much the opposite; Skyrim has engaged me in a way that few other game worlds have and which both Oblivion and Morrowind completely failed to do. It's a setting I very much like to explore and spend time in, with rules and mechanics I enjoy playing with.

It's funny, but I was the opposite. I mean, Skyrim had some nice locations but nowhere near the visual variety of all the locations you could visit in Morrowind. And not only that, but there was so much more going on in Morrowind, what with Dagoth Ur and the Nerevarine. I mean... herp derp dragons and dragonborn seems like so much of a pale imitation.

Alduin was a blank sheet villain. He was there, he did some stuff, but I never really got to know him like I did with Dagoth Ur in Morrowind. I never actually had the chance to understand him. It was just... well, dragons are bad, this dragon's going to eat the world, la dee da, we'd better slay him then. I always felt like there were untold stories in Skyrim because there were so many blank pages.

And there were so many more factions in Morrowind, too. Often, what would be a faceless, blank page of a foe in Skyrim was actually a faction that you could join and learn all about in Morrowind. It wasn't just the Dark Brotherhood (again, again, again), it was a whole bunch of different groups. There were even different flavours of guild for professions, such as sneaky characters having a number of choices of guild to go to.

I felt like I was killing without point in Skyrim. It was killing for the sake of killing. Far too often I'd ask myself "To what end?" and I'd get nothing reasonable as a response. I came away from Skyrim feeling pretty shitty, like some kind of genocidal maniac. It wasn't like in Morrowind where I could knock people out, since hand-to-hand actually kills (for the first time) in Skyrim. And generally, I just didn't feel like my character had any depth.

It's more... my contact tells me to go kill something, and then I have to go kill it, or that part of the story ends there. And that's Skyrim, over, and over, and over. Morrowind had more depth than that.

Skyrim is just so much mindless violence.

I think this is where the feeling of linearity is coming from. In Skyrim, unlike in New Vegas, and so many other games that I've loved, I can't choose anything but mindless violence. You have two choices ultimately in Skyrim:

1. Mindless violence.
2. Stop playing.

In that way, it is like CoD, and it is linear, and it is shallow.

I still want to like it because there are things that I kind of like there. I kind of like the graphical design, I kind of like what they did with the races, I kind of like the lore, I kind of like some of the stories (even though none of the damn stories were ever finished and they were all abandoned half-way through in some new standard of half-arsing), and so on. But generally the whole proceedings just feels so, so, so shallow.

And generally, unless it's a person you're meant to talk to, speech is completely worthless.

It's like Fallout 3 - you can solve every problem by killing someone. But even worse than Fallout 3, Skyrim encourages you into that way of thinking. Due to that, I couldn't really enjoy it that much, and I couldn't immerse myself in it. I mean, if you can just go from one group to the next, killing, killing, and killing some more without ever noticing your kill count or caring, then fine... I guess it's the game for you.

But I remember doing so many other things in so many other games.

Why has it all come down to this?

Why has the great RPG just been diluted down into killing things?

If I wanted to just kill everything and have the sort of depth that could be written down onto a napkin, then I'd play CoD. I play RPGs because they're supposed to offer me something different. Consider this: Ultima VII is thought to be one of the best RPGs of all time. Despite that, the combat is horrible, and it's almost better to go through the entire game without every using your sword or magicks on anything. Only very rarely will you be thrust into unavoidable combat. The depth came from the world, the characters, and the story.

Skyrim is like the opposite of that. The lack of depth comes from how I'm some genocidal maniac (like the Blades, like the Vigilants of Stendarr, like the Silver Hand, like the Thalmor, like Alduin's dragons, like so many other groups in the game), and I can't choose to be anything else. It's KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL.

I mean, they even lampshade this by having one of the NPCs in Whiterun talk about it.

I was able to get into Morrowind more because at least I didn't come out of Morrowind feeling like my character was some sort of abhorrent abomination.

---

Let me give you just one example. Just one. The one that finally did me in with Skyrim.

In Labyrinthian (a dungeon which wasn't so labyrinthine at all) there was a Dragon Priest who seemed like he was pretty much old and alone. Had this been an Obsidian game, then I would have had some way to reason with him, to bargain with him for the Staff of Magnus. That place was his home. I barged in there like a frickin' mad man, and I couldn't even stop to talk.

such was the greed of my character that all I could do was lay into him and kill him for the staff. So I just barged into someone's home and slaughtered him for something I needed to stop a catastrophe. Does having stopped that catastrophe make me feel any less shit about it?

...not really. No. No it doesn't.

And there's so much of that in Skyrim.

"Why am I killing this stuff again? Ah, because the game told me to, and gave me no other choice."

[Nalano]

"Why am I killing this stuff again? Ah, because the game told me to, and gave me no other choice."

Also known as Designated Villainry (http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/644).

[Skalpadda]

@Wulf: Stopped reading when I saw Alduin mentioned since I haven't finished the main quest yet, but speaking generally on the topic of Morrowind vs. Skyrim as worlds; for me it's a simple case of enjoying the overall themes and environments more. I don't dislike Morrowind as a world, it just never grabbed me. Perhaps it helps that I can I can just walk out the door and essentially be in Skyrim (without the monsters and crazy ruins), so there's a more personal connection to that sort of environment for me.

About the dungeons, the only thing that really bothers me is that nine times out of ten there's a barred door, an unreachable ledge or a conspicuous piece of wall that practically telegraphs "Hidden dungeon exit here!" On the whole I feel they've done a good job of creating interesting locations and most places feel like they have a story and purpose to discover, which I enjoy a lot.

To try and explain why I like them, yesterday I stumbled into a troll cave which opened up to a falmer settlement and traces of old Dwemer ruins where I found the remains of some refugees from Morrowind who had gotten lost and trapped there. The reason it was so enjoyable wasn't that the dungeon itself was brilliantly made or that the mini-story was brilliantly told, but because it all slotted so neatly into the story of how my character decided to spend the night in a cave she came across as she was travelling from Riften to Whiterun and ended up having an adventure. I really like that, and there's a lot of it in Skyrim.

[Shane]

I can see an argument for each individual dungeon being too linear (and I'd agree, though I have enjoyed most of them very much) but even then you have a vast amount of options in how you approach what you face in them, from the myriad of combat options to avoiding combat as much as possible through stealth, distraction, pickpocketing, stealing or using calm and fear spells.
Isn't that what happens in linear manshoots as well? If you have to activate the comms tower, it doesn't matter whether you kill anyone or just run up to the objective and press E. Anyway, my criticism isn't about the gameplay mechanics but rather the design of the game itself.



In games like CoD you never have a choice in what to do next, often down to "shoot this specific thing at this specific time or the game just stops until you do". In Skyrim, if a quest tells me to do something I don't feel like doing I can just not do it and the game will carry on just fine. Go talk to the Greybeards? Nah, I'm going to go punch a bear in the face for a while, then I'll spend an hour decorating my house with Dibella statues and piles of books.
In Skyrim, the game stops and the mini-game begins. What you do outside the confines of the main quest bears no result and has no effect on what the game wants you do. That is the point I'm trying to make, the main quest is a separate, discrete entity and is not in any connected with what you do in the game world.



I just cannot see the parallel except on a very micro level where a quest requires a certain set of events to trigger in a specific order, but I have a hard time seeing how you would avoid that completely (or even why you would want to).

Deus Ex and The Witcher did it in a much, much better way but they were on a smaller scale too.



Shane: Well, surely aside from any game that is purely a sandbox could be compared to something like COD?

I'd say it's an open-world game rather than a sandbox.

"The difference is, if you don't want to just hit the next thing on the list in Skyrim there's absolutely nothing to stop me doing so. In COD that would mean turning the game off."

It means the same thing as in CoD. If you can get away without killing someone chances are the victim wasn't significant anyway, which is another problem I have with the game.

[Nalano]

for me it's a simple case of enjoying the overall themes and environments more.

But that's just the thing: There's no significance to any of it. It doesn't matter if you're fighting bandits, cultists, draugr or dwemer contructs. It doesn't matter if this dungeon is a bear cave, hideout, catacomb or ancient ruin. It plays exactly the same. If you can ignore your surroundings because they have zero bearing on who you are and what you're doing, then what's the point?

It's actually worse if I say, "alright, I'm going to turn off the left hemisphere of my brain. I'm going into this as if it wasn't a linear sequence, the result of which is one less quest in my backlog. I'm going to find meaning in this dungeon beyond my personal goals." And then I'm booted way the fuck outta immersion when I see a sealed tomb that hasn't been opened in centuries filled with fresh apples and cabbages. I wonder if the bandits really spend twenty minutes picking through and dancing over traps and pits and shit every time they lug their haul from some caravan ambush into some deep, airless chamber, only to sleep six feet from a restless draugr, like every hideout is the longest, most contrived railroad apartment ever.

I wonder how they can distinguish MY footsteps from their compatriots. I wonder why, after I've slaughtered a dozen of them, the remainder don't want to parley; like they're more kamikaze than Japanese troops on the home islands. I wonder why I think nothing of slaughtering a dozen of them, and why whomever sent me to this dungeon had no qualms with sending me to certain death, like they do it all the time - except every time they join me I have to babysit them with a finger hovering over the load button. I wonder what the hell these bandits do with all these trade goods, since nobody buys from them, but then I remember that they're really Pirates Who Don't Do Anything (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThePiratesWhoDontDoAnything?from=Main.ptitle94ctt9 bsmafc) aside from gleefully impaling themselves on my swords.

No. Either way it makes no sense. As gameplay. As immersive environment.

[Skalpadda]

What you do outside the confines of the main quest bears no result and has no effect on what the game wants you do. That is the point I'm trying to make, the main quest is a separate, discrete entity and is not in any connected with what you do in the game world.

Is completing quests your main motivation for doing things in a game like Skyrim though? Never tempted to just pack some gear and potions and set off for an unexplored area of the map just to see what you'll find? I've always thought one of the more liberating aspects of Bethesda's games is that they don't specifically want or require you to do anything. The quests are there if you want them but they're not The Game unless you make them so.


There's no significance to any of it. It doesn't matter if you're fighting bandits, cultists, draugr or dwemer contructs. It doesn't matter if this dungeon is a bear cave, hideout, catacomb or ancient ruin. It plays exactly the same.

It might play the same if all you do is, say, run through dungeon after dungeon and smack everything that gets close in the face with a sword, but that's hardly the only way to approach the game.


And then I'm booted way the fuck outta immersion when I see a sealed tomb that hasn't been opened in centuries filled with fresh apples and cabbages.

Curious, I've done loads of dungeons now and I can't remember this ever happening except when there's been a reason for it; bandits using it as a hideout, an excavation site etc.

[Nalano]

Never tempted to just pack some gear and potions and set off for an unexplored area of the map just to see what you'll find?

No, because there's no there there.

[bussinrounds]

Wulf - "Why has the great RPG just been diluted down into killing things?"

Either that or fucking them. Thanks to having devs like Toddler and the docs at Bio leading the way. http://sadpanda.us/images/785228-MCKWXG2.gif

[Shane]

Is completing quests your main motivation for doing things in a game like Skyrim though? Never tempted to just pack some gear and potions and set off for an unexplored area of the map just to see what you'll find? I've always thought one of the more liberating aspects of Bethesda's games is that they don't specifically want or require you to do anything. The quests are there if you want them but they're not The Game unless you make them so.

Atmosphere and immersion are necessary for exploration, the sterile world of the game lacks both for me. Even then, I still fail to find a purpose in clearing endless dungeons and decimating wildlife.


Wulf - "Why has the great RPG just been diluted down into killing things?"

Either that or fucking them. Thanks to having devs like Toddler and the docs at Bio leading the way.

Guess that adding sex, gratuitous violence and a lack of complexity is the only way to for them to achieve commercial success. Hopefully, their mainstream appeal will bring devs like CDPR and Piranha Bytes, who actually know how to make an rpg, into the spotlight.

[Nalano]

It might play the same if all you do is, say, run through dungeon after dungeon and smack everything that gets close in the face with a sword, but that's hardly the only way to approach the game.

Well, I try talking to 'em, but for some reason that never fucking works


Either that or fucking them.

Hey now. Fucking Garrus is like doing your own son, you monster.

[Skalpadda]

Well, I try talking to 'em, but for some reason that never fucking works

You could always think of them as angry internet men.

[Roufuss]

I wonder how they can distinguish MY footsteps from their compatriots. I wonder why, after I've slaughtered a dozen of them, the remainder don't want to parley; like they're more kamikaze than Japanese troops on the home islands.

The first time a bandit yielded to me I was impressed -- he knew he was beaten and gave up. I decided to let him live, only for moments later to have him stand up and hit me in the face. He promptly died. I was disappointed. All bandits do the same thing.

The wolf I brought to near death with my lightning ran off using its survival instincts and I was impressed -- only for the wolf to come back and charge at me for no reason. It promptly died and again, I was disappointed.

Once, I was fighting a group of bandits and one of them ran away in the middle of the fight, never to be seen again. I think this was more of a bug then anything.

Its like Bethesda wanted to implement a system but gave up halfway through. Its a shame.

[Nalano]

The wolf I brought to near death with my lightning ran off using its survival instincts and I was impressed -- only for the wolf to come back and charge at me for no reason. It promptly died and again, I was disappointed.

And holy shit, I'm the grim reaper of wildlife, man. Wolves and bears come to me when they're tired of living. I mean, Jesus Christ, I fight bears mano a mano every single time I go outside! And they have dozens of weight classes on me!

Meanwhile, back in real life, just how many recorded melees between man and bear ended with victory for man?


You could always think of them as angry internet men.

Oh, hell! You remind me: Maybe they're all so depressed at having to live in the wint'ry north it's not homicide but assisted suicide. Y'know, art imitating life 'n all...

[Skalpadda]

Meanwhile, back in real life, just how many recorded melees between man and bear ended with victory for man?

The vast majority, although in real life the circumstances would be quite a bit different than bears randomly charging people.

[Nalano]

The vast majority, although in real life the circumstances would be quite a bit different than bears randomly charging people.

So you often go charging the woods with a knife, expecting to murder a half-ton beast?

[Skalpadda]

Nope, we have firearms these days, but before their invention it was common to hunt bears with spears among both Samí and other Scandinavian people (and I would assume other cultures as well). Hunting a bear armed with nothing but a knife was used as a rite of passage among some Norse tribes.

edit: Pretty sure you'd have to look hard to find a brown bear weighing half a ton. Grizzly bears might, but I doubt it's common.

Also not sure what you're on about with the suicide thing. Scandinavian countries are nowhere near the top in the world.

[Questionable]

Nope, we have firearms these days, but before their invention it was common to hunt bears with spears among both Samí and other Scandinavian people (and I would assume other cultures as well). Hunting a bear armed with nothing but a knife was used as a rite of passage among some Norse tribes.

edit: Pretty sure you'd have to look hard to find a brown bear weighing half a ton. Grizzly bears might, but I doubt it's common.

Also not sure what you're on about with the suicide thing. Scandinavian countries are nowhere near the top in the world.

Skalpadda, I believe that scandinavian countries have some of the highest reported suicide rates in the world (according to the information given to the World Health Organization), but that many specialists believe this to be because every suicide gets reported around here, whereas in other parts of the world many suicides are 'covered up' by doctors or family naming a less shameful cause of death (in the same way as HIV/AIDS are not always reported as such in the developing world because they carry a stigma).

That's what my professor said, at any rate (when I was studying international social work at a swedish university).

As to the bears, to me the situation in Skyrim becomes even more absurd in relation to Sami veneration of them. . . 'Oh! A holy bear, I must beat it to death and dig the gems and coin out of its body to flog at a pawnshop!' Five minutes later: 'Oh! A sacred bear, beat to death, dig out gold!' etc. . .

[Wizardry]

If I wanted to just kill everything and have the sort of depth that could be written down onto a napkin, then I'd play CoD. I play RPGs because they're supposed to offer me something different. Consider this: Ultima VII is thought to be one of the best RPGs of all time. Despite that, the combat is horrible, and it's almost better to go through the entire game without every using your sword or magicks on anything. Only very rarely will you be thrust into unavoidable combat. The depth came from the world, the characters, and the story.
That's why Ultima VII is a really shitty RPG but quite a good adventure game. You should check out that genre.

[DigitalSignalX]

There's a joke among bear hunters, take the sights off your gun so when a bear shoves it up your ass it won't hurt as much.

[Skalpadda]

Skalpadda, I believe that scandinavian countries have some of the highest reported suicide rates in the world (according to the information given to the World Health Organization), but that many specialists believe this to be because every suicide gets reported around here, whereas in other parts of the world many suicides are 'covered up' by doctors or family naming a less shameful cause of death (in the same way as HIV/AIDS are not always reported as such in the developing world because they carry a stigma).

That's what my professor said, at any rate (when I was studying international social work at a swedish university).


http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide_rates/en/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

Well, they're in the higher half of the world, but the only one even making it to top 20 is Finland.


As to the bears, to me the situation in Skyrim becomes even more absurd in relation to Sami veneration of them. . . 'Oh! A holy bear, I must beat it to death and dig the gems and coin out of its body to flog at a pawnshop!' Five minutes later: 'Oh! A sacred bear, beat to death, dig out gold!' etc. . .

You roleplay a Sami? Because that'd be the best. Press E to jojk ;)

The only thing that bothers me about the bears is that there's just so many of them, and you come across caves where there are entire communities of bears just hanging out.

There is of course a general problem with video games where murder is the main method of interaction with every living thing in the game world (hello Gordon Freeman!), but I'm sort of fine with just accepting that the majority of people and creatures I come across are homicidal idiots. It'd be nice if they weren't but I understand why they are.

[Questionable]

Okay, we're not listed as high as I thought. But please note that the WHO's list looks really suspect. Egypt reports a 0.1 per 100000 male suicide rate? Really?

If only the shouts were [scraps of?] jojks. That would honestly be the best Skyrim mod ever.

[Kadayi]

This guy probably shouldn't be left alone with women or children unsupervised, but you can't dispute his single mindednesss when it comes to Skyrim badassery: -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhBiNx749Zw&feature=player_embedded#!

[Skalpadda]

Okay, we're not listed as high as I thought. But please note that the WHO's list looks really suspect. Egypt reports a 0.1 per 100000 male suicide rate? Really?

If only the shouts were [scraps of?] jojks. That would honestly be the best Skyrim mod ever.

I certainly agree that it's not a reliable list (especially considering some of the numbers are from different decades), but I doubt it's a case of needing to adjust nothern European countries upwards so the original point still stands.

And now I really want a survival mod with hunting, fishing and reindeer breeding as main features.

[Wooly Wugga Wugga]

This guy probably shouldn't be left alone with women or children unsupervised, but you can't dispute his single mindednesss when it comes to Skyrim badassery: -


I'm not sure whether I'm impressed or horrified.

[DigitalSignalX]

This guy probably shouldn't be left alone with women or children unsupervised, but you can't dispute his single mindednesss when it comes to Skyrim badassery: -


Holy hell that is funny. Titties, nipples and "smitting", now you are half way to being a Viking.

In other news, I had no idea there were animations for various fist kills, including throwing people off high places and into walls.

[Wulf]

At the end of the day, one thing I'm hoping for is that there's a mod that comes out that can show Bethesda how to do things a different way. I mean, usually, European RPGs are thought of as being hardcore, aren't they? And yet Gothic didn't have you killing everyone. You purposefully had to do a killing move in every one of the Gothic games, otherwise the person would get up after a while and admit defeat. This was especially prevalent in Gothic III where you could do this with every sentient creature. And in Gothic III, there were no suicidal animals.

I just hope that Bethesda can look at that and... well, learn from it. If there's one thing I'd like to do it's force the Bethesda designers to sit down with Gothic III (and the fan patch) and play it. Play it as much as they can. And note the good points about the game mechanics. You were only some kind of crazy homicidal life-devourer in G3 if you chose to be. And you could also choose not to be.

[Roufuss]

This guy probably shouldn't be left alone with women or children unsupervised

Or any sort of wildlife, for that matter.

That video is pretty hilarious though it starts to wear thin at the end.

How did he kill the children? Mods?

[Wizardry]

I mean, usually, European RPGs are thought of as being hardcore, aren't they?
No. The only reason people have ever said that is because Realms of Arkania is probably the most hardcore of CRPGs.

[Shane]

How did he kill the children? Mods?
Yes, there are mods on skyrimnexus for that. I have them too.

[BobsLawnService]

Games that allow inter-species lesbian marriages should not ship without a "muff" button. How am I supposed to keep my new bride sexually satisfied. I fear that Ysolda is going to dally with the hulking, great blacksmith up the road while I am off saving Skyrim. :(

[BobsLawnService]

At the end of the day, one thing I'm hoping for is that there's a mod that comes out that can show Bethesda how to do things a different way. I mean, usually, European RPGs are thought of as being hardcore, aren't they? And yet Gothic didn't have you killing everyone. You purposefully had to do a killing move in every one of the Gothic games, otherwise the person would get up after a while and admit defeat. This was especially prevalent in Gothic III where you could do this with every sentient creature. And in Gothic III, there were no suicidal animals. I just hope that Bethesda can look at that and... well, learn from it. If there's one thing I'd like to do it's force the Bethesda designers to sit down with Gothic III (and the fan patch) and play it. Play it as much as they can. And note the good points about the game mechanics. You were only some kind of crazy homicidal life-devourer in G3 if you chose to be. And you could also choose not to be.The only reason that the animals in Gothic 3 could not be described as suicidal is because the were psychotic chain attack wielding fuckers that were impossible to defend against. A boar would stunlock you and kill you in about 2 seconds while an encampment or orcs would go down without fuss.No, rather give me Skyrims animals.

[Wulf]

There's that, yes. The boars were a bit nuts. But check out the wolves. Wolves growl at you if you get too close, but if you back off then they're perfectly happy to leave you be. Furthermore, they'll opt for *gasp!* actual prey animals in favour of other, more impossible game. And they hunt in packs, there's that, too.

That's the difference I was talking about. And then there's the difference with sentient entities, like I said. With those you can knock them down without killing them, and the game takes that as a 'defeated, you win' scenario. I remember marveling over that at the time and having my doubts that I'd ever see its like again. The sad part is is that I didn't. I wish I had, though.

And yes, it's nice that the animals actually had some level of difficulty to them in Gothic III too if you did engage them. It made you smarter about what you did rather than 'herp de derp dragonborn' who'll be able to make kamikaze charges at most things and win, with the possible exception of giants.

This is, as I said, the thing I like least aobut Skyrim. It's constructive criticism and I've gotten to the point where I'm almost tempted to write to Bethesda about it, but I doubt that views like mine are views they'd listen to. But improving their AI, just a little bit, to relieve the constant homicdal murder, which often leads to damn near extinction agendas, would make their games so much better for me.

[Shane]

"Wolves growl at you if you get too close, but if you back off then they're perfectly happy to leave you be. Furthermore, they'll opt for *gasp!* actual prey animals in favour of other, more impossible game."

The same can be said for the bears and mammoths in SKyrim, no?

[Serenegoose]

"Wolves growl at you if you get too close, but if you back off then they're perfectly happy to leave you be. Furthermore, they'll opt for *gasp!* actual prey animals in favour of other, more impossible game."

The same can be said for the bears and mammoths in SKyrim, no?

No.

Mammoths maybe, bears no.The first sign of any bear in skyrim is usually it barrelling out of the forest towards you at top speed. Same for the sabrecats.

[Batolemaeus]

And then there's the difference with sentient entities, like I said. With those you can knock them down without killing them, and the game takes that as a 'defeated, you win' scenario. I remember marveling over that at the time and having my doubts that I'd ever see its like again. The sad part is is that I didn't. I wish I had, though.

It still amazes me that I've never seen this anywhere else. It's such a neat solution. You can still opt to kill the opponent, but it's usually heavily frowned upon. It makes the environment much more believable that the response to getting caught stealing is getting beat up and some of your stuff taken from you rather than an entire village telepathically knowing and opting to brutally murder you.

Piranha Bytes used this mechanic extensively in arena fights, in quests where you just need to beat up some people, in open world conflicts...it all adds to their incredible world building that is still unprecedented in western rpgs.

[Questionable]

Games that allow inter-species lesbian marriages should not ship without a "muff" button. How am I supposed to keep my new bride sexually satisfied. I fear that Ysolda is going to dally with the hulking, great blacksmith up the road while I am off saving Skyrim. :(

Fear not! The mod tools will be released soon, and then there will surely be a mod or ten that cater to your wife's needs in graphic detail.

I don't see a problem with people choosing to add nude mods or animated sex scenes to their game. Personally though, I can't imagine wanting to watch two of Skyrim's inhabitants in bed - poorly animated, plasticy skinned barbies from the uncanny valley rubbing eachother and clipping through the bed? Bleeach. . .

[Shane]

Mammoths maybe, bears no.The first sign of any bear in skyrim is usually it barrelling out of the forest towards you at top speed. Same for the sabrecats.

Hmm... that's odd because in my game the bears usually let out a warning growl and give chase only when I get quite near. Also, they stop chasing you once you get sufficiently far from the den.

[Nalano]

Hmm... that's odd because in my game the bears usually let out a warning growl and give chase only when I get quite near. Also, they stop chasing you once you get sufficiently far from the den.

In my game they sit on the road like wolves or, indeed, any other animal, and rush you the moment you're within sight.

In fact, roads - despite how much people tend to use them - seem to be a favorite loitering spot for random animals. I keep having to punt goats and deer out of the way.

[DigitalSignalX]

No.

Mammoths maybe, bears no.The first sign of any bear in skyrim is usually it barrelling out of the forest towards you at top speed. Same for the sabrecats.

I play with headphones, so perhaps it's easier to hear them - but wolves and bears do indeed always growl and howl before attacking. Perhaps you're always running into their aggro range before you're aware their presence, but if you're careful, you really can avoid them based on sight and sound. Cats don't make a sound as far as I know, but they're always in open spaces so are usually easy to see and skirt around.

It could potentially also be a game setting relating to draw distance for NPC's etc - I wonder if you don't have it set on max range if they are literally "popping" into existence within aggro range. When riding a horse on roads I find this happens sometimes.

[PeopleLikeFrank]

I think the aggro range might change with difficulty setting too - I noticed that when my girlfriend started playing (on apprentice?) bandits would shout at her to back off from their territory before attacking, which they never did for me (on master). Bears definitely *do* growl before attacking, but I've usually found that by the time you notice them, they're already in aggro mode.

I do wish that the whole yielding / running away mechanic was fully implemented. It seems like Bethesda did want to have the option of being merciful (at least), but the feature is only half-done in the AI.

[Unaco]

There's that, yes. The boars were a bit nuts. But check out the wolves. Wolves growl at you if you get too close, but if you back off then they're perfectly happy to leave you be. Furthermore, they'll opt for *gasp!* actual prey animals in favour of other, more impossible game. And they hunt in packs, there's that, too.

This is true in Skyrim as well, at least for me (might be difficulty dependent). Wolves will growl and get ready to attack when you get within range... if you back off/around them, and don't get much closer, they don't attack. If you get closer, you get within their attack range, and they'll come at you.

[Batolemaeus]

I don't see a problem with people choosing to add nude mods or animated sex scenes to their game. Personally though, I can't imagine wanting to watch two of Skyrim's inhabitants in bed - poorly animated, plasticy skinned barbies from the uncanny valley rubbing eachother and clipping through the bed? Bleeach. . .

I'd like to see a game pull nudity off as the mundane and boring thing it is in real life, as a facet of making the world feel more alive.
Sadly, showing skin in media is always done only with the goal of trying to evoke the "sex sells" mantra. I'm looking at you, Bethesda, with your bikini wearing teenagers strolling through sub-zero temperatures.

[Nalano]

I'd like to see a game pull nudity off as the mundane and boring thing it is in real life, as a facet of making the world feel more alive.
Sadly, showing skin in media is always done only with the goal of trying to evoke the "sex sells" mantra. I'm looking at you, Bethesda, with your bikini wearing teenagers strolling through sub-zero temperatures.

A more basic way of saying that is, "I'd like to see a game with ugly protagonists."

[Batolemaeus]

I would. I really would.

[Nalano]

I would. I really would.

So would I.

[GothicEmperor]

A more basic way of saying that is, "I'd like to see a game with ugly protagonists."
The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion?

Mind you, earlier Elder Scrolls game had more nudity, bitmap as it was.

[Nalano]

The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion?

Consciously ugly. :p

[Questionable]

I'd like to see a game pull nudity off as the mundane and boring thing it is in real life, as a facet of making the world feel more alive.
Sadly, showing skin in media is always done only with the goal of trying to evoke the "sex sells" mantra. I'm looking at you, Bethesda, with your bikini wearing teenagers strolling through sub-zero temperatures.

Well. . . the only counterexample I can think of right now would be The Void, where the women's nudity signals their vulnerability, and the fact that they're being exploited (they're not ugly, though) by everyone in the game, player included. Does that count?

And, before Bethesda manage realistic, repulsive nudity, they're going to have to tackle fat. I want a mod that adds paunches and beer-bellies. Although I was really impressed by the fact that old people i Skyrim, when they wear sleeveless armor, have wrinkly, veiny arms. Nice step towards immersiveness, that :)

[Wulf]

Yeah, that there were actually old people in Skyrim was amazing. But actually saying that sentence speaks volumes in and of itself, don't you think?

It's also kind of sad that I haven't seen overweight as an option since Uru. It was a joyous thing running around as a festively plump bespectacled nerd in a Maintainer suit. I got really attached to that suit. It made a difference to the stick people or muscleheads that we're usually restricted to playing as.

It's a similar shame as well that we never really see disabled people in the position of playable hero/antihero. I wonder how much controversy there'd be if a mainstream game had a hero with a visibly prosthetic leg - even if it was just that?

There's an obsession with beauty and glam in our culture, but it invites a strange breed of xenophobia that I've been railing against, a sort of narrow view and closed-mindedness. It seems like most people want to be a celebrity or a star, even in settings where it isn't relevant. Am I wrong? I may be, but what you have to realise is that this is what publishers think, and this is why we keep getting games like that. But if I'm wrong and people would like to see more of what I'm talking about, then we need to bring this to their attention as a collective.

But I've absolutely no idea as to how we might go about doing that.

Right now though, gaming sends dubious messages with glammish, perfect people killing ugly things in homicidal fits of rage. There's just so much wrong with that... oh, I wish I could fully psychoanalyse it but I can't. And I don't really think that it's a reflection of all of us, but rather perhaps a reflection of any given large publisher's desire to hit the lowest common denominator.

But this is something that weighs on my thoughts. It's something where I wonder if it'll change, how it will, or can it even?

And it's the same with people getting tired of fantasy races. Either people are narrow-minded and they can't accept a race which may have ways of thinking that may be strange to them, or, again, this is what publishers believe we want. Therefore every fantasy race is built upon a stereotype, and ends up being one-dimensional because of that. To bring this back to a topic about Skyrim...

Khajiit: Always thieves. Even J'zargo.
Argonians: Sneaky killers.
Dunmer: Moody, goth, emo, and/or angry.
Altmer: Snooty. ALWAYS snooty.
Orcs: Dumb, obsessed with killing for blood sports.
Nords: Dumb, obsessed with killing for honour.
Imperials: Fascist gits.

And so on, and so on.

I noticed this in Skyrim almost right away. I kept looking for a Khajiit that wouldn't mention thievery. I found Kharjo, but he talks about a chequered past. I met J'zargo and he started talking about wanting to slip things into his pockets. And so on. Thee stereotypes were strong in those races. I just kept hoping for a group that would defy the stereotypes. Thieves guild? Very brutish, and that was a big surprise. Mages' College? Snooty Altmer there, of course. It's all so... predictable.

It's like Bethesda genuinely believe that if they start breaking their own stereotypes, people will be terrified and stop playing their games.

I long for a day when games don't have to feature characters which are beautiful, young, thin, and mundanely familiar.

[Questionable]

Wulf - Deus Ex HR has a protagonist with prosthetic arms. . . that function better than flesh and blood. If a game chose to put the player character in a wheelchair, the wheelchair would probably have a jetpack :(

As to glam/playing as a superstar, I kind of enjoy escapism. And games are (for the most part) about winning. I don't think I'd want to play a game about having a disability or whatever unless it was really good at portraying the main character's situation in a human way, otherwise you just get a game about some guy, who's deaf or whatever, who acts just like all the other action heroes instead of a moving narrative.

"I long for a day when games don't have to feature characters which are beautiful, young, thin, and mundanely familiar."
I'd add to that warcry: ". . .and also have something meaningful to convey in their choice of elderly, sickly, ugly or disabled protagonist."

[Icarus]

It's also kind of sad that I haven't seen overweight as an option since Uru. It was a joyous thing running around as a festively plump bespectacled nerd in a Maintainer suit. ... I long for a day when games don't have to feature characters which are beautiful, young, thin, and mundanely familiar.

Saint's Row 3 has variable body weight, and two of the six pregenerated characters are on the 'very plump' side of things- granted, I wouldn't describe it as an RPG, but there you go. You can play as an old, tubby gangster-momma in a bathrobe and bunny slippers if you so desire.



I kept looking for a Khajiit that wouldn't mention thievery. I found Kharjo, but he talks about a chequered past. I met J'zargo and he started talking about wanting to slip things into his pockets.

Did you find M'aiq the Liar yet? I spotted him in the mountains last night and bothered him a little and he didn't seem to mention thievery at all.

[Shane]

"the Liar"

There you go.

[DigitalSignalX]

If you want a life simulator.. don't play games? Seriously.

Whining about cosmetic and character tropes in Skyrim is pointless. You might as well whine about the presence in TV, film or music. It would not be entertaining, and no one would buy it.

You want realistic animals, realistic obese people, realistic characters, realistic choices, realistic morality, realistic politics... ad nauseum. Get over it? If you've ever fired a weapon at someone or stabbed them in the neck with a knife, would you want all the emotional baggage that comes with it replicated in a game too? Because that's real too. But we've all killed tens of thousands of people in FPS's and Military sims that only represent the technical side of things because the mechanics of it are our pleasure point. Even people in the military who have experienced combat play these games because the reality is so wildly separated from the fiction of the game that there's no emotional correlation.

I can understand wanting to tweak realism to a degree. But immersion is a range, not a bottomless well. Too little, and it's insulting and superficial. Too much and it's simply meticulous pedantry - which is not fun.

The environment in Skyrim is spectacular, though some will (and have) complained that it's "TOO EPIC" that you can't walk a hundred meters without stumbling over some dungeon, shrine or tower. But just as an entire nation is compressed into what would take someone 45 minutes hiking to cover, so too must everything else "realistic" be given the same shaving for the sake of good game play. Mods can and will expand what we have better to suit some desires, but it will never ever be turning your computer off and wandering around in the real forest with a sword, out of breath, freezing your out of shape ass off - because that simply isn't FUN is it?

[Keep]

If you've ever fired a weapon at someone or stabbed them in the neck with a knife, would you want all the emotional baggage that comes with it replicated in a game too?

I would play this.

[Wooly Wugga Wugga]

If you've ever fired a weapon at someone or stabbed them in the neck with a knife, would you want all the emotional baggage that comes with it replicated in a game too?

You mean all the unwanted erections? Because I wouldn:t mind that so much.

[Questionable]

. . . If you want a life simulator.. don't play games? Seriously. . .

I think you're oversimplifying a bit. I want situations, characters, plots in a game which are 'real' enough to be believable (I agree I don't want to perfectly replicate my life). And a story becomes much more compelling if it contains some elements I can recognize and relate to. For example, Skyrim features xenophobic Nords that treat refugees like shit and confine them to a ghetto. Which is not idealized, it's ugly. And because I have strong feelings about racists/enclavization in real life, I feel a certain way about Ulfric Stormcloak. If the world contains imperfections, I feel it becomes more alive - and I think that works for characters, too.

So. . . let's just say I haven't hit the edge of my immersion range?

I think Wulf brings up an interesting problem too, about how media can render certain groups invisible - but that's a discussion for a different place. And definitely not limited to Skyrim.

[DigitalSignalX]

I over simplify because the game that Wulf and others seems to want Skyrim to be won't ever exist. Ever. No matter how much technology and talent we throw at it, because it simply would not be fun. In another context, like a formula racing title, paying attention to such minutia is what makes those games shine because the focus is the realistic experience of driving the car. In an RPG (shush Wizardry) like Skyrim, the "game" is your mere presence in the world, and your choices within it in relation to scripted or random experiences. To criticize the game or the developer for not including a similar degree of verisimilitude is preposterous, yet over and over in different Skyrim posts here and on the main site it seems like that's the biggest problem of the game for them. NOT REAL ENOUGH.

It's like endlessly complaining about tap water being too warm or cold. You have a device here, that gives you unlimited supply of water, and you can turn it on or off, and even control it's temperature some at your whim. Some people have to walk 20 fucking miles to carry water just to drink from a river, and you're bitching about just the right temperature. That's people complaining in Skyrim if wolves should growl further away before they attack. It's facepalm worthy territory in context to similar style games just 5 years ago.

Sure marriage could have some better scripting and more dialog, and sure companions, choices, and morality could be more fleshed out. And maybe that McLaren's starter button needs to be beveled aluminum instead of plastic too. We get it. Next topic please?

edit: I should just delete these posts.. this really isn't an argument that can go anywhere meaningful. Agree to disagree.

[Keep]

I over simplify because the game that Wulf and others seems to want Skyrim to be won't ever exist. Ever. No matter how much technology and talent we throw at it, because it simply would not be fun.

When we were kids, my friends and I used play capture the flag with sticks for guns. Good times. One guy used spend the whole time hiding in a dirty dank ditch playing "sniper", waiting sometimes the whole duration of our playing for the one perfect kill that nobody saw coming.

In other words, you can't tell someone else what is or isn't fun.

[DigitalSignalX]

When we were kids, my friends and I used play capture the flag with sticks for guns. Good times. One guy used spend the whole time hiding in a dirty dank ditch playing "sniper", waiting sometimes the whole duration of our playing for the one perfect kill that nobody saw coming.

In other words, you can't tell someone else what is or isn't fun.

Whole heartedly agree. That's still shooting someone a little differently the context of a game you've created together about shooting people. Bitching in a half a dozen or more thousand word posts about the psycho-social subcontext of bandit behavior in Skyrim isn't your pal hiding in a ditch playing differently. It's a marine drill Sergeant standing over you explaining how you're holding your damn stick wrong.

[Nalano]

I over simplify because the game that Wulf and others seems to want Skyrim to be won't ever exist.

Never say never.

Whether Bethesda wants to make that kind of game, however, is a question for the near future.


It's a similar shame as well that we never really see disabled people in the position of playable hero/antihero. I wonder how much controversy there'd be if a mainstream game had a hero with a visibly prosthetic leg - even if it was just that?

Adam Jensen.

Gregory House.

Fuck, ME2 even has Joker, and his scene was badass.

[Wulf]

I'm a little surprised at that, Nalano. I couldn't have been clear enough.

For the first point of contention, I said a playable videogame character, and one meant to be exposed to the mainstream. Joker is only playable for a short time, though I will admit that what they did with him was fairly great, I will not contest that. However, Jensen is a silly example, because they go out of their way to make a fantasy of prostheses and his are 'cool' because they're fantasy land prostheses. I actually meant in regards to an actual handicap.

This is one thing I keep coming back to: We don't see a lot of handicapped characters, visually unusual characters, or even characters with strange personalities brought on by neurodiversity. It's like developers are too terrified to touch that shit, so 99.5% of the time we're going to see healthy, normal people. And the vast, vast majority of them are going to be average, straight, and white. In fact, now that we've gotten out of the 'ethnic minorities are cool' mindset that was so prevalent in the late '80s up to the early '00s, we're actually regressing.

Here's a point: We're arguing over a female Shepard, but why not a Shepard of an ethnic minority too?

I'm just making that point, so don't read too much into it besides what it is. It's merely an observation of the way things are. We've enshrined that handsome/sexy, average, healthy, normal person to the point where main characters can't even really be anything else. And it's only very rarely do we see games delve outside of that, if it were common then we wouldn't have our 'few favourite examples,' as we do.

As in the only examples that are really noteworthy. And to find the better examples you have to go back further in time toward that 'ethnic minorities are cool' mindset. At one point we seemed to be heading toward that, where it was okay to have disabled characters, overweight characters, characters from ethnic minorities and so on, and then the whole thing took a crap. And now it's a big thing to even remove the 'straight' flag from relationships.

I do feel like we're regressing.

That said, I'm going to move onto another topic, and this'll likely be my last post here since I've set Skyrim aside. I'm done with it. One thing has absolutely fascinated me in the fallout (heh) post-Skyrim, and that's the opinions surrounding Paarthurnax. Across the Internet there has been a very, very strong pro-Paarth vibe, and an anti-Blades one accompanying it. This has pleased me, for obvious reasons, but I wanted to dig into the psychology behind it a little.

Paarth and the Greybeards are the most instrumental in dealing with the most destructive threat to the world, it wasn't an overall hatred either as they could all see things from Alduin's point of view (as could I). They were the most nuanced group. By comparison, I felt that the Blades had the least impact, less than my horse, even. The Blades were a group of xenophobic, genocidal glam hunters, essentially, who wanted to reclaim their glory days by killing things.

However, the Blades genocidal attitudes towards dragons robbed them of any identity. They were just murderers. And here's the interesting thing: That's a common sentiment. Yeah, it surprised me too. I am actually not the only person who's attached the word 'genocide' to Skyrim. Not by a longshot. Yeah, that surprised me too as well. No, the Blades get it almost as much as the Thalmor do. Perhaps even more. But why more than the Thalmor? That's the question: Why are the Blades so much more widely disliked, to the point where people would even Fus Ro Dah them off mountaintops, than the Thalmor?

It's because Paarthurnax is, by and large, a pacifist.

Sure, he's done some bad things in the past, but that was millennia ago. In fact, when you go and speak to him about that, he even gives you good reasons as to why you may want to kill him, and simply tells you his side of things objectively. Paarthurnax is definitely Bethesda's best written character, and he's as wise as hell. It's funny: Bethesda's best written character is a pacifist. I'm grinning from ear to ear about this, and I have been ever since the whole realisation dawned upon me. And subconsciously a lot of people recognise this, too.

Paarthurnax has real reasons for things. See, most of Skyrim is just a sort of pseudo-society built upon the backs of homicidal and genocidal maniacs with one-dimensional desires that damn near always include killing. That's hard for me to actually reconcile. My suspension of disbelief doesn't go that far. The rational and analytical part of my mind says that if Skyrim was truly so, if it was actually like that, then everyone in the North would have been dead long before I got there.

The reality of it would have been a lone Khajiit, standing in the middle of Whiterun, a dilapidated city filled with nothing but skeletons, dust, and ghosts.

"Hey... hello? Um... dragonborn. Someone... someone said you wanted a dragonborn... but you all appear to be DEAD. This is... this is a problem. The remaining dragons are over there with that bluish guy talking hippie about their 'Way of the Voice' and not really doing anything. So uh... I was told that there were good people here, living in fear of dragons... ? Hello? Anyone? HELLO?"

And all that can be heard is his voice echoing through the frozen wastes.

So I can't help but be somewhat amused by that. And it's recognised. People absolutely love the heck out of Paarthurnax. More than the Companions, more than the Blades, more than Ulfric or the Imperials, widely the most beloved character in the game is an avowed pacifist. And the most disliked parties of the game are the more genocidal ones, but the most disliked group of all? The one that targets that sole, well written pacifist. And that's why the Blades leave such a sour taste in the mouths of so many.

"Kill Paarthurnax because he might have done some things millennia ago that the Akiviri may have lied about because they were jerks, anyway. Kill him, or we're no longer talking to you. We're not killing him. You go kill him. Us glam hounds will just wait here and lap up all the credit when you're done, off you go, then. Oh, and kill every other dragon whilst you're at it, because the only good dragon is a dead dragon!"

I really hope Bethesda pays attention to this. Because apparently their marketing division pretty much assumed that people would want to play the roles of genocidal maniacs. I wouldn't be surprised if they'd expected the Blades to be popular, but the exact opposite is true. And the most prominent non-deity dragon in the game--Paarthurnax--is the one that no one actually wants to slay. Old and wise as hell, and fun to talk to. Paarth is the redeeming factor of Skyrim.

Now, if only the next Bethesda game could have lots of factions that have a modicum of wisdom, and are interesting to speak with, and have their own nuanced motivations for everything rather than "THIS GROUP IS MY ENEMY. ALL OF THIS GROUP. YOU MUST KILL ALL OF THIS GROUP DEAD. BECAUSE EVERY MEMBER OF THIS GROUP IS EVIL AND IRREDEEMABLE. THEY ALL MUST DIE. ALL OF THEM!" which actually seems less popular.

Y'know, at the end of the day... colour me surprised. My opinion of gamers in general has actually improved, post-Skyrim. Would have hit a new low if most people had been pro-Blades, but eh... it's nice to know that I can still be surprised.

And like I said... there's just an irony to it, a poetic nature, something... something that just makes me smile.

[Oshada]

Across the Internet there has been a very, very strong pro-Paarth vibe, and an anti-Blades one accompanying it.

If you type 'How to not kill' into Google, the first auto-suggestion is 'How to not kill your self' (?) and the second one is 'How to not kill Paarthurnax'.

[DigitalSignalX]

*skipping Wulf's post because I know it will contain massive spoilers without any sort of warning.

Today I found out why there are random race named NPC's who attack you while traveling. The ones that don't have names except "High elf" or "Breton" etc. There's a reason they're there. I won't spoil it, but it's pretty neat.

This game never ceases to amaze me.

[Nalano]

Here's a point: We're arguing over a female Shepard, but why not a Shepard of an ethnic minority too?

My Shepard (http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e342/jonmphy/Lanos/shepard2.jpg) isn't white. Neither is her commander (http://images.wikia.com/masseffect/images/3/33/Anderson_Character_Box.png).


My suspension of disbelief doesn't go that far.

This is a world where people who actually had the power to put down dragons for good decided simply to lock the big one away until such time as nobody remembered how to fight dragons and were completely unprepared to deal with a dragon invasion. They then entrusted the only information about how to save the world with four guys, and those four guys refuse to speak with anybody at all.

Suffice it to say, logic isn't their strong-point.

[Anthile]

Pretty sure just about nobody I know killed Paarthurnax. It's a terrible decision. The Blades basically ask you to kill your most valuable ally for reasons that are unrelated to the situation at hand, offer you no help doing so whatsoever and refuse to help you any further if you don't do it even though you saved their asses multiple times while risking your own life. Ungrateful bastards.
Hey guys, he sat there on his mountain for thousands of years. Pretty sure if he wanted to do evil deeds he would have done that by now.
No rational being would even consider that request.

[Nalano]

No rational being would even consider that request.

To be fair, giving you practically nothing in exchange for risking your life is pretty much the name of the game for everybody in Skyrim, in Tamriel, in RPGs in general.

[BobsLawnService]

SPOILERS AHOY!











Wait, you can kill Paarthunax? Nobody even esked me to kill him. As soon as I didn't need the blades anymore (After they read that mural.) I ignored them which shows the strength of a game like Skyrim.

As for Winterhold, there is an elf in the marketplace who is perfectly successful because she didin't spend her life whining about racism, worked hard and gained the respect of the Nords. Instead of whining that Ulfric wouldn't get them out of the slums she worked her way out. There is a lesson there for everyone.

[Nalano]

As for Winterhold, there is an elf in the marketplace who is perfectly successful because she didin't spend her life whining about racism, worked hard and gained the respect of the Nords. Instead of whining that Ulfric wouldn't get them out of the slums she worked her way out. There is a lesson there for everyone.

Are you saying that the Dunmer aren't hardworking? And nothing indicated that she was ever the victim of racism.

[Wooly Wugga Wugga]

Today I found out why there are random race named NPC's who attack you while traveling. The ones that don't have names except "High elf" or "Breton" etc. There's a reason they're there. I won't spoil it, but it's pretty neat.

Can you post a quick spoiler for me, I'm genuinely interested.

[Shane]

Hey guys, he sat there on his mountain for thousands of years. Pretty sure if he wanted to do evil deeds he would have done that by now.
No rational being would even consider that request.

You know what I would have liked? Bethesda's writers making the story such that it became necessary to kill Paarthunax rather than having to do it out of obligation to the Blades. I disliked the fact that everyone you killed within the confines of the questline, the only kills that really matter, were those who had been painted evil and usually attacked you on sight. You were never made to think whether saving the world was worth taking innocent lives. Just like Bioware's games, you were always the action hero through and through.

[Nalano]

Just like Bioware's games, you were always the action hero through and through.

Well, Bioware occasionally acknowledges the "what the hell, hero?" moments. Garrus yells at you if you question his revenge plot because you'd be hypocritical, the Council yells at you for exterminating the Rachni, the Alliance yells at you for blowing up a gate in Batarian space, and everybody yells at you for working with Cerberus.

[Shane]

No, I am not talking about moral quandaries but about having to do something that goes against your principles, for the greater good or some other bullshit, without having the option to back out.

[Nalano]

No, I am not talking about moral quandaries but about having to do something that goes against your principles, for the greater good or some other bullshit, without having the option to back out.

Paragon or renegade, either way you kill 300,000 innocent Batarians. Paragon or renegade, you work for the Illusive Man. I think that sounds exactly like what you're talking about.

[Shane]

Even though I played both the games, I don't remember where you had to do that. But, yea, that was the stuff I was talking about.

[Nalano]

Even though I played both the games, I don't remember where you had to do that. But, yea, that was the stuff I was talking about.

ME2's Arrival DLC and ME2's main campaign, respectively.

[Shane]

Despite my dislike for anything Bioware I think I'll give Arrival a try after all.

[Oshada]

Oh man, Arrival would have been impossible if I hadn't picked Geth Shield Boost on a whim instead of my usual Shredder Ammo. It also has some stealthy bits if I recall correctly.

[DigitalSignalX]

As for Winterhold, there is an elf in the marketplace who is perfectly successful because she didin't spend her life whining about racism, worked hard and gained the respect of the Nords. Instead of whining that Ulfric wouldn't get them out of the slums she worked her way out. There is a lesson there for everyone.

I like where you're going with that, but to be fair she also intimates in some random greetings that her wares are smuggled and / or stolen as well. So her "working to success" story doesn't smell of all roses.


Can you post a quick spoiler for me, I'm genuinely interested.

It's an optional branch of the main quest when you have to find an elder scroll, called Discerning the Transmundane. You need something from each of the races.

[Serenegoose]

Just made the mistake of looking at skyrim nexus for mods. Found plenty of naked women mods, but looking for ones to make combat, especially melee combat, more in depth. I'd love it if someone basically put Severance: Blade of Darkness or something into Skyrim. It feels like at the moment combat is in the worst of both worlds between player skill based and RPG based. It's honestly the biggest factor in stopping me playing more, it's a real pity. There's a couple that are on the right track but I'm not convinced they make substantial enough changes yet.

[Nalano]

There is a lesson there for everyone.

I like where you're going with that

I'd like to ask the both of you: What lesson is that?

[Serenegoose]

I'd like to ask the both of you: What lesson is that?

The typical lesson the wise majority imparts to the uppity minority. "Keep quiet and one day, as if by magic, we'll all respect you."

[Nalano]

The typical lesson the wise majority imparts to the uppity minority. "Keep quiet and one day, as if by magic, we'll all respect you."

Damnit, man, I wanted to smack him with that, and now you've fucked up the timing.

[Serenegoose]

Damnit, man, I wanted to smack him with that, and now you've fucked up the timing.

Oh buggeration. Sorry. I'm normally better at this.

[Nalano]

Oh buggeration. Sorry. I'm normally better at this.

It's okay; I forgive you. :P

[Berzee]

The typical lesson the wise majority...

You....you know BobsLawnService isn't actually a Nord, right? Right? =(

[Nalano]

You....you know BobsLawnService isn't actually a Nord, right? Right? =(

And I quote, "there is a lesson there for everyone."

[Berzee]

And I quote, "there is a lesson there for everyone."

The lesson I take from it is, "Ulfric Stormcloak is probably not to best person to rely upon."

[Nalano]

The lesson I take from it is, "Ulfric Stormcloak is probably not to best person to rely on for help."

The Dunmer never asked Ulfric for help. He asked them for help.

[Berzee]

The Dunmer never asked Ulfric for help.

Then you would have been better occupied clearing that up when BobsLawnService originally said "Instead of whining that Ulfric wouldn't get them out of the slums", rather than setting your elaborate snare. =P

[Nalano]

Then you would have been better occupied clearing that up when BobsLawnService originally said "Instead of whining that Ulfric wouldn't get them out of the slums", rather than setting your elaborate snare. =P

BobsLawnService is conflating 'ghetto' and 'slum.' Does that clear things up with you?

[Berzee]

BobsLawnService is conflating 'ghetto' and 'slum.' Does that clear things up with you?

It is certainly a useful thing to note, but the essence of his statement was: "Money > Whining about Ulfrics" ... which is a statement I find very easy to accept. =P

[Nalano]

It is certainly a useful thing to note, but the essence of his statement was: "Money > Whining about Ulfrics" ... which is a statement I find very easy to accept. =P

Except that's demonstrably false. None of the Dunmer or Argonians are unemployed (which is more than can be said for the Nords themselves).

[Berzee]

Except that's demonstrably false. None of the Dunmer or Argonians are unemployed (which is more than can be said for the Nords themselves).

It would only be demonstrably false if you could show that some Dunmer were unemployed and that the unemployed ones were generally better off than the employed ones. If there are no unemployed ones, we can't prove the statement true OR false as we have nothing to compare. ;)

So again I say, it is better now that you have explained why the original example is inaccurate, so that it may be corrected before any lessons are drawn from it, or any traps for smacking anyone are set!

[Berzee]

It feels like at the moment combat is in the worst of both worlds between player skill based and RPG based. It's honestly the biggest factor in stopping me playing more, it's a real pity. There's a couple that are on the right track but I'm not convinced they make substantial enough changes yet.

Yes, I was pretty surprised to realize after playing Jade Empire recently that the combat in that was like 5 times more thoughtful than Skyrim combat =P I never tried the Deadly Reflexes mod for Oblivion or anything, but I might give one for Skyrim a go someday...probably it will take a good while before anything worthy and polished appears, though.

[Nalano]

It would only be demonstrably false if you could show that some Dunmer were unemployed and that the unemployed ones were generally better off than the employed ones.

What the fuck are you talking about? The Dunmer and Argonians are all hardworking yet stuck in a ghetto (or not even allowed within city walls) and regularly harassed by Ulfric's guards. Shutting up won't change that, thus the "lesson" as offered by the high-talking Altmer runs hollow.

[Berzee]

What the fuck are you talking about? The Dunmer and Argonians are all hardworking yet stuck in a ghetto (or not even allowed within city walls) and regularly harassed by Ulfric's guards. Shutting up won't change that, thus the "lesson" as offered by the high-talking Altmer runs hollow.

Well, his lesson was "Working > Whining about Ulfric" ... but if ALL the Dunmer and Argonians work hard...we can hardly compare them to some nonexistent Argonians who just whine and don't work, can we?

[Nalano]

Well, his lesson was "Working > Whining about Ulfric" ... but if ALL the Dunmer and Argonians work hard...we can hardly compare them to some nonexistent Argonians who just whine and don't work, can we?

Because the Altmer's premise is false: They're not harassed and excluded because they're shiftless, as they clearly all work.

[Berzee]

Hm...I have written and deleted a bit of blather and will say it more succintly -- when BobsLawnService returns, I think he will appreciate the current state of the conversation where you are correcting his faulty understanding of the situation in Windhelm, openly for the good of all mankind...

much more than he might have appreciated the previous state of the conversation, where you were silent about the premises while lying in wait for his faulty conclusions to expose him as a ruthless supporter of oppression in videogames. =P

Also: I enjoy the system you've used of classifying people by races like Altmer. :D It communicates much meaning quickly, and I may employ this in the future...at least as a kind of internal shorthand for my thoughts.

[Nalano]

I have written and deleted a bit of blather

Sure, it's probably best if you stop misinterpreting "work" for "money" and inexplicably accepting that "complaining about racism" is the cause of racism.

[Berzee]

sure, it's probably best if you stop misinterpreting "work" for "money" and inexplicably accepting that "complaining about racism" is the cause of racism.

I WiLL DO IT! :3

[DigitalSignalX]

I'd like to ask the both of you: What lesson is that?

Don't make me hug you two into submission.

My point was the simple "rags to riches" trope wasn't as shiny as bob might think. As far as racism in Windhelm, I'm not going to touch that debate except to say that there were plenty of successful non-nords in the other hold towns, so it seems like staying in town under whatever unfavorable circumstances is a choice. That said, it certainly made me feel better when I ran my dagger through Ulfric's neck.

[Berzee]

Don't make me hug you two into submission.

I already made a cat-face emoticon. Clearly we are bff's again.

As for leaving Windhelm, bear in mind the Dragonborn is the only person in the entire world with the gumption and fiery entrepreneurship to pick a handful of flowers about town and sell them to buy passage on the horse cart. =P But it's not easy being radiant.

[Nalano]

that there were plenty of successful non-nords in the other hold towns

And you'll notice that nobody's complaining about racism in the other hold towns. So maybe - just maybe - it's Ulfric and his crew, as all the complainers attested.

[Althea]

After 30+ hours with my Nord, I decided to start a new character. I've gone for an Imperial mage (I'll introduce her properly in the other topic), and I'm enjoying the change in dynamic, although the menu is getting a bit annoying as the spell-to-mouse thing is really bloody backwards, or at least not brilliantly done. I've foregone the main quest already, instead joining the mages at Winterhold, although that hit a dead end fairly quickly as the quests quickly spread out so I'm having to run around everywhere.

I have to say, I'm getting a bit fed up with a lot of the side quests. It's not so much them that's the problem, it's the "Oh, some local bandits stole my amulet" thing... only to find out they're halfway across the bloody map, far from any point you've been to. To me, it kinda feels like Bethesda are artificially stretching it a bit, not to mention occasionally dropping stuff in your path just for shits and giggles.

[Nalano]

After 30+ hours with my Nord, I decided to start a new character. I've gone for an Imperial mage (I'll introduce her properly in the other topic), and I'm enjoying the change in dynamic, although the menu is getting a bit annoying as the spell-to-mouse thing is really bloody backwards, or at least not brilliantly done. I've foregone the main quest already, instead joining the mages at Winterhold, although that hit a dead end fairly quickly as the quests quickly spread out so I'm having to run around everywhere.

I have to say, I'm getting a bit fed up with a lot of the side quests. It's not so much them that's the problem, it's the "Oh, some local bandits stole my amulet" thing... only to find out they're halfway across the bloody map, far from any point you've been to. To me, it kinda feels like Bethesda are artificially stretching it a bit, not to mention occasionally dropping stuff in your path just for shits and giggles.

That's why I've (largely) dropped "hours played = enjoyment" as a general rule of thumb. If most of what you're doing is simple (but long) fedexes, can it really be said that you have X hours of content?

There's been a fair number of times where I've pitted my will for immersion against just hitting the "fast travel" button to get the damn thing over with.

[Althea]

The thing with Skyrim (and Oblivion before it, but also FO3/NV) was that largely I saw them as make-your-own-fun games, the addition of shouts in Skyrim adding to that massively. I don't mind the simple run-here-kill-that-or-pick-up-this missions, because they truly are a case of the journey being more interesting than the destination, and even when you get to the destination you can often have some fun, such as going FUS! and making a bandit cartwheel in the air, but even that begins to get a little old.

Opinions Wot I Has:
Dwemer Ruins - Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh. They're all the bloody same, except perhaps that one for the lexicon. Go here, kill that, get mobbed by Falmer, wonder how the frig anything survives down there, rinse and repeat. That's how they work for me.
Draugr Barrows - Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh.
Town Guards - I used to be a sweetroll like you, but then I took an outsider to the CURVED. SWORDS.
Argonians - Coughs-a-lot does not smoke, no. This is her natural, husky voice. Cough Cough Cough.
Lusty Argonian Maid - Surely Bethesda could have put in a different bit rather than doing a copypasta on the one from Oblivion? Unless I've only found one part of many rather than just one part.
Soundtrack - Wot soundtrack? Oh, that one that you can barely sodding hear and the one that barely sodding ever plays? Yeah. I don't know what it is, but I just phase out with a lot of Soule's work.
Wolves - Bloody. Wolves.
Dragons - Bloody. Dragons.
Doing things wrong - Yup. I managed to gain a powery dragon shout thingy without even getting the first one, or even following the quest. Seems a bit weird to me.
That Breton in... uh... Whiterun, the one who owns the general store - He's a bit creepy, right? Do come baaaaaackkkk *leer*
Lydia - She's fine... until she talks. "Look, a cave, I wonder what's inside" she said... as I went into a cave WE'D JUST LEFT.
Mjoll - Ain't got a clue what she's saying half of the time.
Iona - Moody bitch.
Shadows & World Textures - Bethesda, y u no do it right this time???

[Nalano]

Shadows & World Textures - Bethesda, y u no do it right this time???

Oh god I hate the shadows. Highest possible settings and they still look crappy as fuck.

[Drake Sigar]

That Breton in... uh... Whiterun, the one who owns the general store - He's a bit creepy, right? Do come baaaaaackkkk *leer*
With barely contained glee he says "If I had a sister I'd sell her in a second." I keep telling myself it's just a merchant idiom, and that I'm just imagining the muffled sounds coming from the back of his shop.

[Roufuss]

That Breton in... uh... Whiterun, the one who owns the general store - He's a bit creepy, right? Do come baaaaaackkkk *leer*


He sounds a bit like James Woods to me... in fact, I even thought it was him at first.

It certainly explained some of the creepiness to me.

[Shane]

Minor spoilers about the quest for the Ebony Armor:

Breezehome feels a bit lonely after I sacrificed Lydia to Boethiah, is there a way I can get some other companion to live there rather than having them go about their way?

[DigitalSignalX]

I think the only other NPC you can let occupy your home is a spouse once your Thane pack mule has perished. I'm looking forward to an NPC sandbox mod after the release of the SDK that will give us some more options when it comes to homes (like setting ownership of the second bed, etc).

[Althea]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Od-b82jxj4E

Best. Skyrim. Mod. Ever.

[Drake Sigar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sP8iYrsMYI&feature=related

[BobsLawnService]

And all those calling me out for my Skyrim racism are entirely correct. In the context of the game my dislike for people with victim complexes was triggered instead of my real life social injustice trigger.

Go figure.

[BenWah]

Sorry for dumb question -- what is the best way to readily map many magic spells?

I know I can map one spell to each hand, what do I do to quickly cast further spells without having to pause the game in menus?

Also is it easy to equip and unequip items, to swap between magic use and arrows/melee without having to pause in menu?

Signed,
Too lazy to RTFM but feeling guilty for dumb question

[Althea]

Sorry for dumb newb question -- what is the best way to readily map many magic spells?
I know I can map one spell to each hand, what do I do to quickly cast further spells without having to pause the game in menus?

Admit I haven't time to read through tutorials and instructions, hope this isn't out of line to ask :)
Favourite them with F in your Magic screen, and then in-game press Q to access the favourites menu.

[Berzee]

And all those calling me out for my Skyrim racism are entirely correct

See? See the trouble you cause when you refuse to blur the lines between games and real life? =P
As I mentioned I played Jade Empire recently (I'm somewhat behind the times) and when I go back to Skyrim I will probably miss the inclusion of Closed Fist dialogue options...even though I never pick them, I'd like to have the option for SOME of the sidequests (less for any involving the races in skyrim though...mostly for the sidequests where someone is too scared to talk to their crush or other epic jobs-for-Dovahkiin like that =P).

[Wooly Wugga Wugga]

You can also assign items in your favourites to number keys. Select the spell and push the number if I recall correctly.

[gganate]

What would be a good game world for the Elder Scrolls Six? I'm thinking Blackwater, the home of the Argonians, would be interesting.

[Althea]

What would be a good game world for the Elder Scrolls Six? I'm thinking Blackwater, the home of the Argonians, would be interesting.
I think we'd better get TES V done with before we think of TES VI

[Serenegoose]

What would be a good game world for the Elder Scrolls Six? I'm thinking Blackwater, the home of the Argonians, would be interesting.

I think Valenwood is my pick for what I'd like most. In actuality Hammerfell is the most likely next setting. Redguard are still humans, and it's got a big desert in it, and big boring deserts are basically obligatory editions to any fantasy series.

Hammerfell is also a good name for the series in general. After Morrowind (mysterious) oblivion (ominous) and Skyrim (fantastical sounding) Hammerfell (STRONG) seems a good contender. They're unlikely to release THE ELDER SCROLLS: ELSWEYR. (almost-amusing.)

[Serenegoose]

I think we'd better get TES V done with before we think of TES VI

If only Bethesda felt the same, eh? :P

[squirrelfanatic]

I think we'd better get TES V done with before we think of TES VIWhat's wrong with the game? I felt like playing a rather, well, complete game for the last few weeks.

[Althea]

What's wrong with the game? I felt like playing a rather, well, complete game for the last few weeks.
... nothing? But there's still definitely more patches to come and DLC, so it's not yet "finished" with.

[squirrelfanatic]

... nothing? But there's still definitely more patches to come and DLC, so it's not yet "finished" with.Ah, I mistook your comment as sarcastic and aimed at what some people experience as an "unfinished" product. Sorry, no offense intended.

[Shane]

Maybe we'll get to see new landscapes after the creation kit is released.

[Althea]

Ah, I mistook your comment as sarcastic and aimed at what some people experience as an "unfinished" product. Sorry, no offense intended.
None taken. I don't think Skyrim is unfinished in terms of content, but there is more to come and I think a lot of people - myself included - either haven't finished it or even started it, and I would think that towards the end of this year would be a better time to discuss TES VI and what we'd like.

[PeteC]

What would be a good game world for the Elder Scrolls Six? I'm thinking Blackwater, the home of the Argonians, would be interesting.


I strongly suspect it'll be Elsweyr. Can't remember where I read it but someone put up a good case for it due to some clues they found in Skyrim.

I'd prefer Hammerfell myself.

[Shane]

I doubt they would set the game in a land that's full of furry men. I think lands where the dominant population is either man or elf would be picked.

Edit: As someone who's still a rookie in TES lore, what makes Hammerfell so viable?

[Serenegoose]

I doubt they would set the game in a land that's full of furry men. I think lands where the dominant population is either man or elf would be picked.

Edit: As someone who's still a rookie in TES lore, what makes Hammerfell so viable?

It's not especially fantastical, whilst still having a varied landscape - a big desert in the middle, a fertile coast and a strong naval tradition - populated mostly by humans (with some orcs from the lands to its north) with a reputation for being noble warriors.

Essentially, it's Sandrim.

[Wooly Wugga Wugga]

I wouldn't mind The Elder Scrolls moving to a more fantastical environment so Elswyr would be good. We've done forests so I guess jungle and desert with a mid-East motif would be good.

[Nalano]

I wouldn't mind The Elder Scrolls moving to a more fantastical environment so Elswyr would be good. We've done forests so I guess jungle and desert with a mid-East motif would be good.

Sounds like Hammerfell to me.

[Althea]

I'll tell you what I noticed recently - the pathing for companions is absolutely terrible, and Bethesda should be ashamed. My companions run face first (rather literally in Lydia's case on more than one occasion) into traps, which harms me or them and rarely anything trying to slice my face off/smash my breastplate in. Oh, and I think Lydia is currently sat outside a fortress because she's too damned stupid to jump down from the ledge and follow me, and going into other zones doesn't force her to appear with me. Sigh. I don't mind when she runs close and goes face-first into me, it lets me know she cares.

Oh, and I hate plate steel armour. Bethesda, I love how you went for more realistic armour in Skyrim, but seriously, stop with the bloody boob armour for heavy gear. It's dangerous, impractical and looks ridiculous. Just resize the male armours for women - it would look much better and make more sense. Orcish looks alright, I'll give you that, but really - come on. You're better than this.

And whilst I'm here, who on Earth designed the interface? It. Doesn't. Bloody. Work. And. It. Wastes. Time. Typical instance of me trying to sell stuff: Go to shop, go "o hai shop keep y u so mean 2 me????" and then asking to buy/sell. I think I have a book to sell, so I click books... only for the shop menu to close. Then I'll try open it again, only for it to go "lolnope" and forces the shopkeeper to talk about why sweetrolls are T3H BEST FINGZ EVRAR three times before it lets me in again.

[Serenegoose]

Oh, and I hate plate steel armour. Bethesda, I love how you went for more realistic armour in Skyrim, but seriously, stop with the bloody boob armour for heavy gear. It's dangerous, impractical and looks ridiculous. Just resize the male armours for women - it would look much better and make more sense. Orcish looks alright, I'll give you that, but really - come on. You're better than this.



aaaaah! I wouldn't mind Skyrim's boobplate if it wasn't QUITE SO OVER THE TOP. It's like they went 'well, we're not going to show exposed breasts - but imagine if they had solid steel double J boobs on every bit of heavy armour. That'll do, right?'

I didn't think they could get MORE ridiculous than just wearing nothing - and they haven't - but they really have given it a go.

[Althea]

I went looking for the article which explained (briefly) why boobplate is bad - it's here (http://madartlab.com/2011/12/14/fantasy-armor-and-lady-bits/), under Section 4.

[Serenegoose]

I went looking for the article which explained (briefly) why boobplate is bad - it's here (http://madartlab.com/2011/12/14/fantasy-armor-and-lady-bits/), under Section 4.

Oh, I know why it's bad, in terms of armour design (I've read the article before and it is excellent) - but I've always allowed a little leeway in armour looks vs practicality. It actually takes a lot for me to dismiss something as immersion breaking, which really says a lot about the stellar job fantasy armour designers have been doing so far to manage just that pretty much every time. Mostly I dislike boobplate because it looks ugly, in all honesty. There's no elegance to it. Good armour is like a perfect piece of machinery, each component seamlessly meshing with the next to convey this aura of invincibility - slapping giant metal boobs on it just adds a real neanderthal touch.

[Nalano]

I went looking for the article which explained (briefly) why boobplate is bad - it's here (http://madartlab.com/2011/12/14/fantasy-armor-and-lady-bits/), under Section 4.

Nice link. Thankee for that.

I'd like to point out that, Plate Steel Armor aside, a lot of the armor is okay for women. My Blades set (http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594706251613066214/5FEBBFD94FA436F0E68DB0CC013BE47FE2380AAC/) - aside from being tight at the hips - is more or less unisex (http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594706251613063600/4E0E940091066982BE21CBF019F03475C2ED4E45/), and iron and banded iron armor are single breastplates.

[Drake Sigar]

At least there's no chain mail bikini.

[Althea]

At least there's no chain mail bikini.
Actually, Falmer Armour isn't far off.

[Skalpadda]

I guess it's the difference between a breastplate with room for bosoms and a breastplate with bosoms. Overall though, most of the armour in Skyrim is fairly sensible and at least looks like it's designed to protect the wearer more than dazzle enemies with sex appeal.

[Althea]

I guess it's the difference between a breastplate with room for bosoms and a breastplate with bosoms.
Which is the same as the difference between a breastplate that can kill you and one that will protect you. Most busts, even on the larger side of things, can be accommodated by an unmodified - or lightly modified - set of armour, although women with bigger bosoms may be better served with a more flexible or shaped set of gear. The women in Skyrim are busty, but they're not huge, so they'll easily fit into "traditional" armour.

I don't mind armour customised for women, not against that at all, but I really don't like gratuitous armour that's clearly not practical. My point is that boob plate armour is not practical, is not safe and looks stupid. We're not talking Red Sonja levels of stupidity, but at least if she fell over her armour wouldn't endanger her.