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Wooly Wugga Wugga
29-10-2011, 12:31 PM
I'm starting to get really excited about playing this. I've tried a few of the low budget knockoffs lately (Risen, that one in which you can turn into a dragon.) and I haven't been impressed at all.

It is looking utterly gorgeous and I can't wait to explore it. I'm even considering upgrading to a Radeon 6870. I can't remember when last a game made me want to upgrade.

So are there any other un-cynical internet people out there who are still capable of getting excited about a game and is it this one? Also, can we keep the whining about it not being some contrived morality simulator to a minimum please. It's ok for a game to be about exploring a beautiful and interesting world.

For anyone interested here is a forum thread discussing system specs : http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1245750-unofficial-will-my-pc-run-skyrim-discussion-37-with-hardware-guide/

DigitalSignalX
29-10-2011, 12:44 PM
I'm very excited as well. I'm also very worried - and I hate myself for it a bit. I'm worried that the rose tinted glasses I had for Oblivion's epic scale, potential for exploration and crafting your own narrative will be made dour by all the other open world experiences in the past 5 years. I'm worried that it will be a horrible console port and suffer many of its predecessors flaws that ended up only being corrected by mods.

It sucks that I can't be just pure excited, that it's tempered by critical experiences with the genre, the developer, and the series.

Joseph
29-10-2011, 12:45 PM
I don't usually get excited (I mean child-like excitement) about things but I am looking forward to playing this. Especially since my gaming time has become somewhat more restricted I can't wait to play something juicey that I can sink my teeth into.

Althea
29-10-2011, 12:47 PM
that one in which you can turn into a dragon.
Divinity 2 is not a knock-off of Skyrim or Oblivion, so no wonder you weren't impressed.

I'm excited about Skyrim, though.

Wizardry
29-10-2011, 12:55 PM
Nothing about Skyrim is very appealing.

AndrewC
29-10-2011, 12:59 PM
Nothing about Skyrim is very appealing to me.

That's the spirit.

sabrage
29-10-2011, 12:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wRepGZgM9g
This video got me more excited for the game than anything else I've seen (and I pre-ordered two months ago!) and negates Wizardry's comment rather nicely.

Wizardry
29-10-2011, 01:00 PM
That's the spirit for me.
I couldn't agree more.

Wolfenswan
29-10-2011, 01:01 PM
I'm starting to get really excited about playing this. I've tried a few of the low budget knockoffs lately (Risen, that one in which you can turn into a dragon.) and I haven't been impressed at all.


because Risen never wanted to be Elder Scrolls and neither did it's predecessors Gothic I & II.

Anyway, I am a tiny bit excited about Skyrem yes but I'll wait for the first reviews and impressions and then decide if I want to shell out.

Anthile
29-10-2011, 01:06 PM
Divinity 2 is not a knock-off of Skyrim or Oblivion, so no wonder you weren't impressed.

I'm excited about Skyrim, though.

And neither is Risen, which is a spiritual successor to the Gothic series.

Edit: Ninja'd.

Unaco
29-10-2011, 01:14 PM
Nothing about Skyrim is very appealing.

It's the 2nd best seller on STEAM currently. I believe it has appeal for a great many PC gamers.

Edit: That Concept Art to Ingame Assets video is pretty damn good.

I am looking forward to Skyrim... I know it's not going to be perfect, and I know, out of the box, it's not going to be the game I'll want to play for 9 - 12 months... but with a little work in The Elder Scrolls Construction Set, it'll be much better.

mr.doo
29-10-2011, 01:15 PM
I'm starting to get really excited about playing this. I've tried a few of the low budget knockoffs lately (Risen, that one in which you can turn into a dragon.)

"Low budget knockoffs" ? What the fuck ?

Wooly Wugga Wugga
29-10-2011, 01:23 PM
I'm avoiding videos and previews in general but I did read that the art design of Skyrim was in response to the generic nature of Oblivion. It's almost as if they are channeling an almost Frank Frazetta type vibe. It's a world I want to explore.

Also, apologies to those defending Risen but I feel that Gothic was an attempt at an open world RPG (Oblivion was also an open world RPG) and since Risen is the "Spiritual Successor" to the Gothic series it puts it in the same genre. Buy anyway, my intention is to avoid a hatefest in here so let's just say that the two games i mentioned just didn'tscratch my Open World RPG itch and I'll leave it at that.

Drake Sigar
29-10-2011, 02:08 PM
And neither is Risen, which is a spiritual successor to the Gothic series.

Edit: Ninja'd.
Damn right. Casually accusing a respected decade old franchise of being a poor man's Elder Scrolls? I've a mind to get medieval on his ass, but this is really about Skyrim. I'm very excited about it and can't wait to resume my career in the Dark Brotherhood.

KauhuK
29-10-2011, 02:13 PM
Looking forward to Skyrim and hoping it offers better experience in vanilla (unlike oblivion). I'll be playing it a lot but I gotta keep myself from playing too much and wait for mods to come. I hope that steam christmas sale provides some games to fill the gap in waiting for skyrim mods.

Keep
29-10-2011, 02:33 PM
So are there any other un-cynical internet people out there who are still capable of getting excited about a game and is it this one? Also, can we keep the whining about it not being some contrived morality simulator to a minimum please.


Nothing about Skyrim is very appealing.

Totally unnecessary. Not cool.

Wizardry
29-10-2011, 02:39 PM
Totally unnecessary. Not cool.
I couldn't give a fuck about morality simulators so I don't see your point.

corbain
29-10-2011, 02:44 PM
Anyone else concerned that the required disk space for install is only 6GB? Does this mean we're stuck with low-res console textures, or are Bethesda really amazing at compressing assets?

Alex Bakke
29-10-2011, 02:45 PM
I couldn't give a fuck about morality simulators so I don't see your point.



And yet there are rules in place to ensure that everyone discusses their mutual love of all things game-ey - can we keep it this way?



Anyone else concerned that the required disk space for install is only 6GB? Does this mean we're stuck with low-res console textures, or are Bethesda really amazing at compressing assets?

I think Bethesda had an interview where they claimed to be amazing with compression, yeah.

metalangel
29-10-2011, 02:47 PM
can't wait to resume my career in the Dark Brotherhood.

They might be the first group I seek out. Once I had their sneakysuit I almost never wore anything else.

Althea
29-10-2011, 02:50 PM
Anyone else concerned that the required disk space for install is only 6GB? Does this mean we're stuck with low-res console textures, or are Bethesda really amazing at compressing assets?
Bethesda have said it's due to new compression techniques.

Wooly Wugga Wugga
29-10-2011, 02:56 PM
They might be the first group I seek out. Once I had their sneakysuit I almost never wore anything else.

I seriously hope that the quests in Skyrim are up to the standard of the Dark Brotherhood quests. My confession about Oblivion is that I explored the world and did random quests for a few months until I got bored, then completed the Dark Brotherhood quests and considered the game finished. I never did muck about with the main questline. Perhaps I should one day.

Fiyenyaa
29-10-2011, 04:47 PM
I couldn't give a fuck about morality simulators so I don't see your point.

Where's the simulation? Are we e-folk not worthy of any courtesy? Or are you perhaps one of those oh-so-grown-up-and-sophisticated nihilists?

Wizardry
29-10-2011, 04:49 PM
Where's the simulation? Are we e-folk not worthy of any courtesy? Or are you perhaps one of those oh-so-grown-up-and-sophisticated nihilists?
Why are you asking me? Ask Wooly Wugga Wugga.

metalangel
29-10-2011, 04:53 PM
I seriously hope that the quests in Skyrim are up to the standard of the Dark Brotherhood quests. My confession about Oblivion is that I explored the world and did random quests for a few months until I got bored, then completed the Dark Brotherhood quests and considered the game finished. I never did muck about with the main questline. Perhaps I should one day.

I made the mistake of starting the main quest (mostly to get the free horse and to see the bit my friend had been playing in Kvatch) not realizing that I would henceforth suffer the constant irritation of Oblivion gates and any scenic vista would undoubtedly have the sky discoloured or have those stunted scamp thingies lurching out of the undergrowth to pester me.

I felt I had no choice but to "get the main quest over with" so I could then enjoy the game world unmolested. Bleh!

Fiyenyaa
29-10-2011, 05:00 PM
Why are you asking me? Ask Wooly Wugga Wugga.

Because you're the one who said "nothing about Skyrim is appealing to me" and WWW is the guy who said "not cool"?

Wizardry
29-10-2011, 05:08 PM
What are you on about?


Also, can we keep the whining about it not being some contrived morality simulator to a minimum please. It's ok for a game to be about exploring a beautiful and interesting world.

Where's the simulation? Are we e-folk not worthy of any courtesy? Or are you perhaps one of those oh-so-grown-up-and-sophisticated nihilists?

Fiyenyaa
29-10-2011, 05:15 PM
What are you on about?

Oh, erm...
My mistake. Like, really completely and utterly my fault.
Wow, I'm more than a little red, here. I do apologise...

Wooly Wugga Wugga
29-10-2011, 05:32 PM
Because you're the one who said "nothing about Skyrim is appealing to me" and WWW is the guy who said "not cool"?

Nope, Wizardry is an idiot savante. He knows his RPG's between the years of 1985 and 1995 but he's no good discussing anything else so I don't respond to him.

Jockie
29-10-2011, 05:50 PM
I'm looking forward to it, had a chance to play 40 or so minutes at Eurogamer, and that was about 70 hours too short for my liking.

It will probably have a few bugs and a few shoddy design decisions, but when you have a beautiful intricate world to explore with the potential for modded greatness, it seems churlish to complain too much.


(unless you are trapped in a mind that cannot see beyond the cRPG's limited beginnings, in which case it will be as SHIT as every other game since 1994)

Demiath
29-10-2011, 06:42 PM
I'm always excited for Bethesda/Elder Scrolls games before they are released...and then invariably get disappointed by their forgettable open worlds and boring action mechanics. It was the exact opposite with Gothic 3 and Risen, which I didn't expect anything from but which completely blew me away with fun and atmospheric exploration of huge but hand-crafted environments and a satisfying (if not unproblematic) approach to realtime combat.

Skyrim looks very promising, though, and I find myself hoping for the best again (have pre-ordered it on Steam). Ontologically speaking I'm certainly willing to entertain the idea that the world could potentially include a good Bethesda game; and that less procedurally generated content coupled with slightly more engaging combat would be simple but important steps in the right direction. Hell, I've even made it through an entire forum post without saying mean things about the Visionary of Mediocrity himself, Todd Howard...

vinraith
29-10-2011, 06:46 PM
As always, the conversation worth having about a Bethesda game like Skyrim won't take place for a few months. It'll be titled "which mods make this game awesome?" and until the game has been out for awhile we can't possibly have it.

Wizardry
29-10-2011, 06:47 PM
As always, the conversation worth having about a Bethesda game like Skyrim won't take place for a few months. It'll be titled "which mods make this game awesome?" and until the game has been out for awhile we can't possibly have it.
More like "which mods make this game playable?"

vinraith
29-10-2011, 06:48 PM
More like "which mods make this game playable?"

I've yet to see a post-Daggerfall Bethesda game that was truly broken and unplayable on release. Oblivion, FO3, and New Vegas all worked reasonably well and were fun for awhile, but it's always mods that make them great.

Unaco
29-10-2011, 06:51 PM
Yeah, what Vinraith said. The games have been perfectly playable on release... they just aren't perfect, tailored to our own specific tastes. That's what mods are for though.

Wooly Wugga Wugga
29-10-2011, 07:40 PM
Yeah, what Vinraith said. The games have been perfectly playable on release... they just aren't perfect, tailored to our own specific tastes. That's what mods are for though.

I guess that is where my approach to open world RPGs is different from a lot of peoples. The only thing about my experience with Oblivion that bugged me was the lack of more varieties of fauna. I know that the skill system was broken, the animations were bad, the writing was awful and every other little complaint but while I was playing I didn't even notice that stuff because Oblivion worked in the way that counted to me. It was a lush beautiful world to explore with interesting places and people to discover everywhere.

Maybe growing up with the cRPGs of the late 80's and early 90's instructed me on how to plaster over the shortcomings and abstractions of games as long as they filled my need for escapism and discovery. Oblivion ticked the right boxes. Gothic 3 did as well. I loved exploring that world even though the game itself had so many issues.

Sometimes I think it is ok to turn off the inner critic and just enjoy something for what it is.

Further off topic it's also why I dislike this push to make games morally gray and representitive of all minority this and that and cater to real world issues. I want my games to be as far removed from the real world as possible, to trigger my inner child and spark a sense of wonderment - not bombard me with the issues of the day.

Unaco
29-10-2011, 07:54 PM
I think it was just my own tastes that weren't met with Oblivion on release. It was a good game, and I think I sank a month or two into it, with some very simple/lite modding. It was the level scaling, combined with the speed of levelling though. I came out the first dungeon, and did some freestyling, not following any quests, just plungin' into some dungeons, exploring a few towns etc. By the time I got onto Kvaatch I was lvl 9 or so. By the time I was done in Kvaatch, I was lvl 15/6. I'd gone through those 6 or 7 levels in that short time, and as a result, I missed all that 'level' in the open world... entire types of enemy or equipment I just didn't see. Reducing all the values for levelling speed by 10 fixed it. That and things like the interface and that marred the experience for me.

It was still a very good game. But it wasn't a truly great game... til about 6 - 9 months after, with a fair bit of modding. After that, I must have sank about 6 - 9 months into it.

Spider Jerusalem
29-10-2011, 08:02 PM
Nothing about Skyrim is very appealing.
this.

especially at release. the game will most certainly need 100000000 fixes and all of them will come from the modding community.

Spider Jerusalem
29-10-2011, 08:04 PM
Anyone else concerned that the required disk space for install is only 6GB? Does this mean we're stuck with low-res console textures, or are Bethesda really amazing at compressing assets?
considering the xbox is the lead platform DOTDOTDOT

some modder will release hi-res textures in the first few weeks.

deathcarrot
29-10-2011, 08:21 PM
Definitely looking forward to it, it's likely to be my GOTY. There's something about Bethesda's worlds that I haven't seen in anyone else's games. You can just pick a direction, go for a walk, and find something new to do, right from the start. That's certainly the biggest advantage F3 has over F:NV (although I'm not saying that F3 is necessarily the better game).

IMO, Morrowind did this the best; about half of the surface was explorable at low level, and the bits that weren't, you could usually tell from a distance. Then you can start raiding tombs, then dwemer ruins, then dunmer strongholds and daedric ruins for loot and bits of lore. For me, the quests are a distraction from the world, rather than the other way around, which doesn't happen often enough. Arena and Daggerfall just seemed too much like a massive set of discrete towns and dungeons rather than expansive worlds, and Oblivion's level scaling made it all a lot less exciting, but thankfully F3 improved on that front. I'm hoping Skyrim will be as open as Vvardenfell, but I'm not overly optimistic about it.

In the Gothics, New Vegas and any others I've played that fit in the same slot, I rarely get the urge just to head out and explore, as pretty much every area I can reach is linked to a quest I already picked up from a previous town. You tend to only be able to progress from one town to the next, steadily going into higher and higher level regions, rather than being able to just go out and do what you want. I still enjoy all kinds of RPGs, the ones that allow me to explore freely just scratch an itch that the others can't.

I know full well that I'm in the minority, I'm just trying to shed some light on why some people might choose not to hate Bethesda's games.

Username
29-10-2011, 08:39 PM
The previews I've seen have really hyped me for Skyrim. The new art designs for the races (primarily Argonians), the new level-up system, and dynamic dragon duels! Yeeeeaaah!

Wizardry
29-10-2011, 08:44 PM
The previews I've seen have really hyped me for Skyrim. The new art designs for the races (primarily Argonians), the new level-up system, and dynamic dragon duels! Yeeeeaaah!
It's good to know Bethesda's investment in marketing is paying off.

Smashbox
29-10-2011, 09:18 PM
http://www.korseby.net/spiele/wizardry/wizardry6_troll.gif

sinister agent
29-10-2011, 09:19 PM
Wizardry, it there a reason you're even reading this thread? It sounds like you have no interest in the game at all, and while I'm all up for criticising games, it seems like all you're doing is pointless sniping.

Doesn'tmeananything
29-10-2011, 09:23 PM
It's good to know Bethesda's investment in marketing is paying off.

Hardly surprising. Their marketing department was particularly good ever since Oblivion.

Althea
29-10-2011, 09:27 PM
http://www.korseby.net/spiele/wizardry/wizardry6_troll.gif
Makes Skyrim's art style look like it's been done by a colour-blind tortoise who only has access to a bunch of colouring crayons.

SephKing
29-10-2011, 09:39 PM
Can't believe this is out in two weeks. Battlefield 3, Skyrim, Arkham City, LA Noire and Saints Row the Third in one month. Might need to make use of the three weeks hoiday I have left this year.

Berzee
29-10-2011, 09:46 PM
Makes Skyrim's art style look like it's been done by a colour-blind tortoise who only has access to a bunch of colouring crayons.

How does the tortoise play into that? o_O

Althea
29-10-2011, 09:52 PM
How does the tortoise play into that? o_O
Ain't got a clue.

Wizardry
29-10-2011, 09:57 PM
http://www.korseby.net/spiele/wizardry/wizardry6_troll.gif
It's not difficult typing "wizardry troll" into google images and posting the first image that pops up.

Drake Sigar
29-10-2011, 10:09 PM
That is the most magnificent beard I've ever seen.

So Skyrim, yes, jolly good. I have mine preordered, though you can count me out for the super duper chocolate sprinkles edition. I don't see how anyone can not feel the buyer's remorse upon realizing they just forked over £100+ for the kind of extras you'd skip on a movie DVD and a lousy statuette.

outoffeelinsobad
29-10-2011, 10:56 PM
I'm looking forward to exploring the world, and that's pretty much it. Hopefully they manage to precipitate some wonder into the world design, a la Morrowind. A little bit of non-Euclidian architecture would go a long way.

bussinrounds
30-10-2011, 12:21 AM
I agree with Wizardry. Shit hiking/Larping simulator is shit.

Keep
30-10-2011, 12:28 AM
I agree with Wizardry. Shit hiking/Larping simulator is shit.

Fine. Look, I'm not interested myself, but jeez guys. Someone's started a thread to express enthusiasm about something. Maybe I'm getting old, maybe I've been watching too much Adam Curtis, maybe I've had one too many to drink, but I think that's special and awesome.

Why d'ye feel the need to come along and assert your own negativity in the face of that? If you don't care about this game, then just don't care about it.

sinister agent
30-10-2011, 12:46 AM
How can a role playing game be a 'simulator' of a hobby that simulates role playing games?

Tautologies don't help any argument either, incidentally. Fine if you have a problem with Skyrim/oblivion/whatever, but either explain why, or just stay out of threads about it entirely. Anything else is just wasting your time and making you look bad.

Alex Bakke
30-10-2011, 01:16 AM
In addition to Sinister Agent's post,

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lr1p2jQWQK1qjg6rwo1_500.jpg

Joseph-Sulphur
30-10-2011, 01:27 AM
How can a role playing game be a 'simulator' of a hobby that simulates role playing games?

Tautologies don't help any argument either, incidentally. Fine if you have a problem with Skyrim/oblivion/whatever, but either explain why, or just stay out of threads about it entirely. Anything else is just wasting your time and making you look bad.

You must be new here. Unfortunately the RPS seems to attract pretentious knobs likes Wizardry who feel the need to inform everyone just how terrible games are these days and just how terrible they are for not playing RPGs from the late '90s.

Mere humans such as ourselves cannot defeat them without referencing all our points with aforementioned late '90s RPGs which give us the authority to talk about any game, ever. No, us lesser beings have ignore them and be content with the fact that he is a sad excuse for a person who is so desperate to be seen as some kind of gaming connoisseur that he will resolutely rubbish any video game sporting DirectX 5 or above.

bussinrounds
30-10-2011, 01:33 AM
It does nothing well besides exploration. Story/writing/dialog/characters are bad, RPG mechanics are laughable (never did i even need to look at my stats pages in Oblivious) and the gameplay is shit. (combat is terrible with no hit reaction and terrible AI) Combat was done so much better years ago in games like M&M and Severance.

At least if they could manage to pull off some engaging combat maybe it could be a decent action game possibly, but instead it flounders in this in between state, not excelling at any particular aspect. (besides exploration) And even that's not that great because of how sterile and lifeless the world is. Never mind the retarded level scaling which kills the exploration aspect anyways.

And besides if ppl like Wizardry and i never came on to threads like this you would just have a contentions circle jerk of everyone just spewing how AWESOME the new ES game is gonna be. That would be pretty lame , no ?

Smashbox
30-10-2011, 01:38 AM
True, it's much more constructive to shit all over things than to lavish praise on them. Thank you for your service.

bussinrounds
30-10-2011, 01:48 AM
I'm just telling it like it is from a perspective of someone that's been playing RPGs for over 30 years. If it deserves praise, i would gladly give it.

Just throwing my opinion out there, that's all. I'm not gonna harp on it and will bow out now.

Alex Bakke
30-10-2011, 01:05 AM
And besides if ppl like Wizardry and i never came on to threads like this you would just have a contentions circle jerk of everyone just spewing how AWESOME the new ES game is gonna be. That would be pretty lame , no ?

It wouldn't - That's specifically what the original poster asked for, and had his wishes been carried out, it would have been a lovely thread full of people discussing how excited they are about the upcoming release of a game. The wonders of a forum is that you do not have to comment on every post, every thread; "I agree with Wizardry. Shit hiking/Larping simulator is shit." serves no purpose but to provoke a reaction from a crowd and to direct the thread into a completely new focus.

If you don't like Skyrim, why don't you make a nice long post in your own thread, with well thought out points and insights? That way, people can comment on your opinions and it would still remain relevant.

In my mind, it's like two people having a discussion in a café/bar about how excited they are for perhaps a band's new album (So, discussing opinions essentially), and then a random person sidling up and loudly announcing that the band's rubbish and that the two people discussing said band are stupid.

Wizardry
30-10-2011, 01:09 AM
How can a role playing game be a 'simulator' of a hobby that simulates role playing games?

Tautologies don't help any argument either, incidentally. Fine if you have a problem with Skyrim/oblivion/whatever, but either explain why, or just stay out of threads about it entirely. Anything else is just wasting your time and making you look bad.
Well, personally I couldn't see anything redeeming in Oblivion. The combat was absolutely dreadful and the level scaling resulted in HP bloated monsters, making combat even worse as you leveled up. Dungeons were all copy-pasted. Cities and villages were way too few. The majority of quests were repetitive, with only the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves Guild quest lines being any fun at all. The entire character system was absolutely dreadful and broken, with stripped out skills. The dialogue system was almost non-existent, involving only the clicking of buttons that weren't greyed out. Even loot collecting was really boring because the unique items mostly sucked, especially considering item scaling. Even picking up loot to sell became pointless when every enemy started dropping daedric and glass items.

And then you patch it to make it better. You end up with a game that isn't entirely broken, which in turn reveals the very nature of the game: one that is entirely bland and does nothing better than its predecessors.

These two screenshots sum it all up for me.

http://i43.tinypic.com/ravx8x.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/yjvcz.jpg

Basilicus
30-10-2011, 01:41 AM
Let me fix this.

EVERYONE!!!

Start every post with: "You're absolutely right, Wizardry, but I am looking forward to Skyrim nonetheless because:"

And then just continue talking. And ignore him. Or, just ignore him. Same end result, different approaches. Who wants to try first?

sinister agent
30-10-2011, 01:50 AM
It does nothing well besides exploration. Story/writing/dialog/characters are bad, RPG mechanics are laughable (never did i even need to look at my stats pages in Oblivious) and the gameplay is shit. (combat is terrible with no hit reaction and terrible AI) Combat was done so much better years ago in games like M&M and Severance.

At least if they could manage to pull off some engaging combat maybe it could be a decent action game possibly, but instead it flounders in this in between state, not excelling at any particular aspect. (besides exploration) And even that's not that great because of how sterile and lifeless the world is. Never mind the retarded level scaling which kills the exploration aspect anyways.

See, now that's fair enough. It's a discussion now, not a sneer. Broadly speaking, I agree with all your points there (and yours too, Wizardry - not quoting as I don't want to make this thread a scrollfest. Although I still much prefer playing Oblivion to the earlier games in the series, as Morrowind had barely any game in it and every dungeon in Daggerfall felt like an enormous grindy chore), although I think there are still some details in each Bethesda game that, with enough refinement, and coupled with improvements to the above areas, could make Skyrim a solid game.


And besides if ppl like Wizardry and i never came on to threads like this you would just have a contentions circle jerk of everyone just spewing how AWESOME the new ES game is gonna be. That would be pretty lame , no ?I disagree - there are plenty of people who both like and dislike Morrowin/Obliv/etc. and are happy to both criticise and praise the series. And as I hinted at earlier, I (and I'm sure I'm not alone in this) have no problem with very negative comments about the game. It's completely unqualified, pointless ones like your earlier one that are a waste of everyone's time.

Severance's combat was pretty nifty. It's a pity the game as a whole didn't really work, and that the movement controls made fighting more than one enemy at a time a nightmare.

Berzee
30-10-2011, 01:56 AM
scrollfest
aHA!
I GET IT!

Wooly Wugga Wugga
30-10-2011, 04:44 AM
Wizardry, it there a reason you're even reading this thread? It sounds like you have no interest in the game at all, and while I'm all up for criticising games, it seems like all you're doing is pointless sniping.

The only thing Wizardry knows is ancient RPGs so he spends his life trying to derail threads to show off his knowledge. Please just ignore him.

BobsLawnService
30-10-2011, 05:42 AM
RPS seems to have the knack of attracting that one negative asshole friend who criticizes everything and is only barely tolerated by the group. You guys must be the life of the party.

Like the OP I think Skyrim is looking great and I can't wait to sink 200 hours into it. I'm also looking forward to seeing how good the high quality map will be. I still take my Ultima VI map out on occasion and stroke it.

mrchinchin25
30-10-2011, 09:33 AM
I'm looking forward to it too - also pre-ordered it (first game this year pre-ordered!). Must have sank approx 300hrs across Oblivion and Morrowind over the years. Exploration style games are a big win in my book.

So, what's been confirmed that will / won't appear in Skyrim that was in Oblivion?
Level-scaling (hate)?
Have they reduced the weapon counts again or can we have crossbows?

BobsLawnService
30-10-2011, 09:41 AM
They've moved towards Fallout 3 style scaling apparently and I haven't seen any sign of crossbows. One thing that has been confirmed is that there are no spears.

Lukasz
30-10-2011, 10:01 AM
The only thing Wizardry knows is ancient RPGs so he spends his life trying to derail threads to show off his knowledge. Please just ignore him.

...
he is right about a lot of things tough. (although he is too harsh)
We all know how dumbed down was Oblivion compared to Morrowind... Skyrim seems to be even more.

i am bitter that they removed spears. WTF where they thinking... open-end game where you decide how you want to fight they... instead of adding even more weapons they remove one entirely.
:(

BobsLawnService
30-10-2011, 10:13 AM
I can also do screenshots :


http://bbrathwaite.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/wizardry1.gif

http://nerdreactor.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/skyrim-mammoths-and-giants.jpg

metalangel
30-10-2011, 10:47 AM
Can you ride or play as one of those mammoths?

VILLAGER: Ah, you are the one they call the Hero of Dawnstar!
MAMMOTH: BRAAAACCCK!
VILLAGER: I saw an Icecrab the other day. Disgusting creatures.
*MAMMOTH picks up VILLAGER with his trunk and hurls him into the tree line*

Althea
30-10-2011, 11:03 AM
Are the mammoths voiced by Ray Romano?

Anthile
30-10-2011, 11:13 AM
Are the mammoths voiced by Ray Romano?

All wildlife will be voiced by Steve Blum.

Althea
30-10-2011, 11:39 AM
All wildlife will be voiced by Steve Blum.
I knew it!

Actually, I want that to happen. "Get your fucking dick over here!"

thegooseking
30-10-2011, 02:46 PM
We all know how dumbed down was Oblivion compared to Morrowind... Skyrim seems to be even more.

Oh, can we please stop pretending that people's differing tastes as regards RPGs are somehow a matter of how 'smart' or 'intelligent' it is. It's really baselessly elitist and insulting. Yes, more recent games are less intellectually stimulating in the same way old games are, but they're more intellectually stimulating in other ways; ways that I happen to consider more meaningful, and ways for which I'm glad to have my attention undivided by tedious spreadsheeting.

Wizardry
30-10-2011, 03:40 PM
Oh, can we please stop pretending that people's differing tastes as regards RPGs are somehow a matter of how 'smart' or 'intelligent' it is. It's really baselessly elitist and insulting. Yes, more recent games are less intellectually stimulating in the same way old games are, but they're more intellectually stimulating in other ways; ways that I happen to consider more meaningful, and ways for which I'm glad to have my attention undivided by tedious spreadsheeting.
And in which ways are Oblivion more intellectually stimulating than Morrowind?


I can also do screenshots :
That just shows that you prefer graphics to gameplay.

Althea
30-10-2011, 03:46 PM
And in which ways are Oblivion more intellectually stimulating than Morrowind?
Oblivion's combat works, Morrowind's combat is the crippled offspring of two schools of thought. Oblivion is more streamlined, yeah, and perhaps arguably not much more intellectually stimulating, but at least you're not defying all logic.

sinister agent
30-10-2011, 03:59 PM
For one thing, Oblivion isn't a totally dead world where absolutely everything is rooted to the spot forever, 24 hours a day, doing nothing. And then having 90% of people spout exactly the same tedious lines at you.

But anyway, back at the point, I am not getting too excited about it, but most things I've read about Skyrim so far indicate that the devs have really made an effort to address the major issues of their previous games (and that includes Morrowind). I'm entirely indifferent to the main story, which is what they've been focussing on, so it's hard to tell, but I certainly hope the rest of the world is done well.

Lukasz
30-10-2011, 04:18 PM
For one thing, Oblivion isn't a totally dead world where absolutely everything is rooted to the spot forever, 24 hours a day, doing nothing.
true that

And then having 90% of people spout exactly the same tedious lines at you.
yeah... yes they do. unless shivering isle change that.

Oblivion is massive cliche of fantasy world. after what morrowind presented to us, with its unique world, items, characters, quests, Oblivion took most of it away.
It gave us Radiant AI, it gave us better graphics, it improved combat a bit (still it far far from ideal), better sounds and also many technical improvements.

maybe I should not use the word dumb. Oblivion streamlined, simplified the gameplay. and that's bad.

Skyrim seems to do that too compared to Oblivion.
Like removing spears. what the hell is that all about? Instead of adding more weapons... they remove them. insanity.

Wizardry
30-10-2011, 04:20 PM
Oblivion didn't have spears.

Also, radiant AI is a myth. It doesn't exist. The game basically uses scripted schedules underneath.

sinister agent
30-10-2011, 04:29 PM
Oblivion didn't have spears.

Also, radiant AI is a myth. It doesn't exist. The game basically uses scripted schedules underneath.

...which was still an improvement on Morrowind, whatever you call it.

I do hope Skyrim has more variety of weapons and equipment, though. I don't actually care if there are more skill categories for weapons - axes, maces, spears etc all acted in exactly the same way in Morriwind anyway, so adding more skills that do exactly the same thing would be pointless. However I would like to see more variety in whatever weapon classes are in there. More swords, more axes, more shields, that sort of thing. More variety in clothing and materials for same would be nice, too, especially if they could balance things so that many items aren't rendered totally obsolete.

I'm particularly looking forward to seeing what they do with sneaking and regular clothes. The "your spells are less efficient" thing in Obliv was really no significant drawback as a magic user. Wearing armour was always a no-brainer there. Hopefully they can fix that, maube with damage multipliers when magic hits armour, or with perks that work as long as you're unarmoured.

thegooseking
30-10-2011, 05:05 PM
I don't see why streamlining is a bad thing. To borrow terms from another debate, until recently game mechanics evolved, rather than being intelligently designed (ok, there was an intelligent designer involved, but evolution played a much bigger part than it should have). One of the great disadvantages of evolution is that once you start down a path, you're committed to it: there's no backtracking, even if a better solution becomes apparent later.

Streamlining intentionally addresses one of the disadvantages of evolutionary game mechanics, and does a good job of it, too. Treating that as a bad thing is really weird.

Lukasz
30-10-2011, 05:26 PM
I don't see why streamlining is a bad thing. To borrow terms from another debate, until recently game mechanics evolved, rather than being intelligently designed (ok, there was an intelligent designer involved, but evolution played a much bigger part than it should have). One of the great disadvantages of evolution is that once you start down a path, you're committed to it: there's no backtracking, even if a better solution becomes apparent later.

Streamlining intentionally addresses one of the disadvantages of evolutionary game mechanics, and does a good job of it, too. Treating that as a bad thing is really weird.
Mass Effect 2 was streamlined compared to ME.
COD games are streamlined compared to COD1 and 2 (maybe 3 too. never played it tough)
FPS being linear instead of open level is streamlining. It allows 'press button and something awesome happens' kind of gameplay.

There is a place for simple games... that they exist it is not the problem. That all games are being simplified is not a good thing tough.
Instead of getting complex rpg which builds on what previous incarnation did they remove options, they simplify the gameplay...

It is not like beth only does that. Bioware is also to blame.

Streamlining might sound good... when it does not remove the complexity of the game. I put days in Morrowind, and only 20 hours in vanillia Oblivion (got collectors edition on release). Skyrim does not seems to make game more approachable by redesigning some aspects of the game. it instead simplyfies the game by removing stuff.
Bioware instead of making inventory work properly they removed it completely
Beth removed spears, attributes instead of making them work properly.

that's not good.

If you are hyped for game. good for you. it ain't my thing anymore.

Wizardry
30-10-2011, 05:45 PM
I don't see why streamlining is a bad thing. To borrow terms from another debate, until recently game mechanics evolved, rather than being intelligently designed (ok, there was an intelligent designer involved, but evolution played a much bigger part than it should have). One of the great disadvantages of evolution is that once you start down a path, you're committed to it: there's no backtracking, even if a better solution becomes apparent later.

Streamlining intentionally addresses one of the disadvantages of evolutionary game mechanics, and does a good job of it, too. Treating that as a bad thing is really weird.
No! Absolutely not! Back in the early days games were vastly different from each other. Wizardry was completely different to Pool of Radiance, which was completely different to Ultima, which was completely different to Dungeon Master etc. Streamlining, if anything, has made games similar. Publishers look at commercial successes and copy their mechanics, streamlining them even more to appeal to more people.

sinister agent
30-10-2011, 06:28 PM
Jesus christ. Can we have a subforum for the people incapable of talking about anything else but ancient bloody RPGs and why everything else is inferior and nobody's allowed to talk about anything else without being reminded of that?

So, Skyrim, then. You know, that game that none of us have played? What do people who actually intend to consider playing it think?

metalangel
30-10-2011, 08:02 PM
Jesus christ. Can we have a subforum for the people incapable of talking about anything else but ancient bloody RPGs and why everything else is inferior and nobody's allowed to talk about anything else without being reminded of that?

So, Skyrim, then. You know, that game that none of us have played? What do people who actually intend to consider playing it think?

I'm going to play the sort of character that I enjoy (a stealthy type) and have some wonderful adventures crunching through the snow. I think in a number of ways it's a bit like Oblivion in that you can't really appreciate just what the game involves until you try it for yourself. PC Gamer's review had a huge focus on the Oblivion dimension and very little of the beautiful landscapes, for example, and that put me off. Then I saw my friend playing and all I saw the the misery of the Kvatch sequence followed by... yes!.. more of the Oblivion dimension.

Hell, my own playthrough was worrying me, considering you start in the miserable sewers. I'd somehow managed to skip the intro sequence too.

It was only when I emerged into the early evening light from the sewer pipe and saw the beautiful lake next to the prison, thousands of lush colours in the sky and in the trees, soft lilting music... that I had a genuine roleplaying moment. I (my character) stripped off her clothes, which stank of the sewer and the prison, ran down the little dock and leapt into the lake for a refreshing swim.

Cleansed, I decided I got dressed and decided I needed to find somewhere to spend the night before I started my adventure. I realized I'd lost myself in the world. It won't be quite the same again but I hope Skyrim can give me a similar moment.

Questionable
30-10-2011, 08:06 PM
I'm particularly looking forward to seeing what they do with sneaking and regular clothes. The "your spells are less efficient" thing in Obliv was really no significant drawback as a magic user. Wearing armour was always a no-brainer there. Hopefully they can fix that, maube with damage multipliers when magic hits armour, or with perks that work as long as you're unarmoured.

So, I'm late to the party, but that would be awesome. (I don't think it's likely. But it would be great.) I personally expect to really enjoy Skyrim, probably playing it for 20-30 hours next month, then playing through the entirety of the game months later with an overhaul mod.

I'm fine with changing game design choices so long as they're well designed and the experience works: For instance, the lockpicking minigame in Fallout 3 was in no way complex, but it felt like picking a lock (yes I know I've never picked a real lock and that's probably not how things work IRL) and so I found it far better than, say, Morrowind's lockpicking system. Or more directly on the streamlining thing that Lukasz, serenegoose et al are discussing, cutting out athletics as a skill makes sense to me as training that skill never really impacted my play experience. I was never interested in playing elder scrolls games as hardcore simulations, so I'm okay with them cutting out the unfun stuff. . .

Fiyenyaa
30-10-2011, 08:43 PM
So, Skyrim, then. You know, that game that none of us have played? What do people who actually intend to consider playing it think?

I can't help but feel that the introduction of crafting will make me into an Alec-style character who has little skills except making stuff. I wonder how viable combat will be in later levels when your only decent skill is making super-gear?

Althea
30-10-2011, 08:48 PM
What do people who actually intend to consider playing it think?
I'm going to go for a 2H-weilding super awesome scary Nord lady who finds her own Lusty Argonian Maid.

Well, I can dream, can't I?

sinister agent
30-10-2011, 09:45 PM
Fallout's lockpicking was well done, I agree. I'd like to see if they can improve on it, but if not, I can live with that.

I will probably try doing the sneaky thing as well, just because it typically gives you more options. I'm really hoping I'll be able to make a living as a wandering scavenger/hunter/tinker type person, though I suspect I'll need to wait for mods for that to really be viable. I guess at high levels, the crafting stuff will effectively give you defensive and attacking bonuses, since your gear would just be so much better. Maybe they'll even have perks like 'keen eye' or something, where a really skilled armourer can see the weak points in an enemy's armour, allowing you to do extra damage.

I'm perhaps putting too much faith in the perks stuff, but it seems to offer more possibilities (judging by Fallout 3, as well as some other similar games) than just adding multipliers and skill-scaled bonuses and so on. It'll hopefully make things easier for modders, too.

Otherwise... well, the changes they've made to magic in this look really interesting. I might even be a primarily magic-based person if archery isn't significantly more interesting than last time. Sneaky sneaky souly-stealy! It'll be good to see how the various spells combine. I hope they've really gone to town on that.

sabrage
30-10-2011, 10:29 PM
I think it looks fun.

bussinrounds
31-10-2011, 12:46 AM
No! Absolutely not! Back in the early days games were vastly different from each other. Wizardry was completely different to Pool of Radiance, which was completely different to Ultima, which was completely different to Dungeon Master etc. Streamlining, if anything, has made games similar. Publishers look at commercial successes and copy their mechanics, streamlining them even more to appeal to more people.Haha, you should check out the rpg codex man (if you don't know about it already, that is) The majority of ppl there share our tastes and views on the genre. http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/index.php

Basilicus
31-10-2011, 01:28 AM
No! Absolutely not! Back in the early days games were vastly different from each other. Wizardry was completely different to Pool of Radiance, which was completely different to Ultima, which was completely different to Dungeon Master etc. Streamlining, if anything, has made games similar. Publishers look at commercial successes and copy their mechanics, streamlining them even more to appeal to more people.

The Witcher's meticulous research, crafting, and pre-encounter game-planning is the same as Dragon Age's pause-based rock-paper-scissors, dive-right-in combat? Is the same as Drakensang's OCD role-playing system that makes every playthrough look at the gameworld differently? Is the same as Cthulhu Saves the World's old-fashioned turn-based combat? Is the same as The Last Remnant's unit/morale/chain attack management-on-sugar? Is the same as Oblivion's get-good-at-what-you-use and everyone-else-will-too system? Is the same as Gothic's focus on hoarding points (Community Patch, mind) and seeking out teachers? Is the same as Recettear's managing a shop and bartering on sale prices? Yes, I can see how everyone just keeps churning out the same muck over and over without breaking new ground.

Wizardry
31-10-2011, 02:03 AM
Yes, I can see how everyone just keeps churning out the same muck over and over without breaking new ground.
Finally. You're getting it!

How does half of those games have anything to do with streamlined game design? I mean, the fact that you mentioned a game with "old-fashioned turn-based combat" kind of backs up my point.

thegooseking
31-10-2011, 08:25 AM
What I'm not looking forward to in Skyrim is the inevitable mispronunciation of certain words in the voice acting. Knowing a bit of Gaelic, it's a problem I had with Dragon Age, with all its Celtic-inspired names. Also knowing a bit of Icelandic (and, by extension, a smattering of Old Norse), I anticipate a similar problem with Skyrim. I bet they'll pronounce 'draugar' wrong, for one thing.

Though I did wonder, a few years ago, whether we should use the term 'draugar' in English. The singular is 'draugr' (in Old Norse; 'draugur' in Icelandic), and 'draugar' is the plural according to Norse grammar conventions. I wondered whether we should use that or regularise the plural into English: 'draugrs'. I guess Skyrim takes the former option? Or is 'draugar' the singular in Skyrim?

These things matter to me, ok?

Juan Carlo
31-10-2011, 09:26 AM
It does nothing well besides exploration. Story/writing/dialog/characters are bad, RPG mechanics are laughable (never did i even need to look at my stats pages in Oblivious) and the gameplay is shit. (combat is terrible with no hit reaction and terrible AI) Combat was done so much better years ago in games like M&M and Severance.

At least if they could manage to pull off some engaging combat maybe it could be a decent action game possibly, but instead it flounders in this in between state, not excelling at any particular aspect. (besides exploration) And even that's not that great because of how sterile and lifeless the world is. Never mind the retarded level scaling which kills the exploration aspect anyways.



I don't know, ya'll. I think bussinrounds has some valid points here.

Of course, I personally still liked Oblivion and plunked like 100+ hours into it, but despite this I still would have a hard time refuting anything buss is saying here.


Part of why I think I overlooked its flaws was just that Oblivion was so new and shiny and pretty when it came out that the world probably seemed much bigger, better, and more exciting than it was. However, it lost its luster once you explored it a bit longer. And the same basic BEthesda open-world concept REALLY lost some more luster with FO3--which I think had many of the same problems, only they were more apparent from the start just because it was running on the same old boring gamebryo engine with all its flaws in tact.

Which is why I worry about "Skyrim." It's not going to have the innovative bells and whistles that Oblivion had on its release--so it has to get by entirely on the merits of its writing/world design. I hope it turns out well, but I guess I don't have much trust in Bethesda. The ES universe has never been all that unique or appealing or original. At least with FO3 BEthesda had the unique and interesting aesthetic of the original Fallout games to fall back on to give the game some character, but this time they don't even have that.

And, yeah, I'm also not encouraged by the 6gb size. Bioware also told us not to worry when it leaked in advance that DA2 was only 4gb (compared to DA:O's 11gb) and we all know how that turned out.

sabrage
31-10-2011, 09:43 AM
I don't need to refute anything anyone says to have fun. And that's all that matters to me.

Vexing Vision
31-10-2011, 09:54 AM
I loved Daggerfall's setting. I thoroughly enjoyed Morrowind. I was disappointed at Oblivion but still got my 80+ hours of gametime in, and I'm excited as a bunny on drugs (excitement-enducing drugs, not sleep-enducing drugs) for Skyrim.

I am definitely going for a Spellsword again. Hurling fireballs and whacking the remains with a sword is just so appealing to me, and I always enjoyed the Mage Guild quests. I certainly hope we'll get a bigger access to spelldesign again.

I'll definitely play without Mods too. Never bothered with them in any game, apart from stand-alone adventures in Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate, or new tracks for any racing game.

Althea
31-10-2011, 10:07 AM
I'll definitely play without Mods too
Same here, I suspect. Depends if a Project Beauty-esque mod comes out, and if any quick fixes will be needed.

bussinrounds
31-10-2011, 10:21 AM
It's a good concept, but executed poorly.

Look at this new vid... http://www.dailymotion.com/BethesdaSKYRIM#videoId=xm1bwa First 20 min of game.

Voice acting ...still painful Animations...still wooden Gameplay...still banal (creation engine?? ) Doesn't look like a 'brand new' engine to me. LOL

Looks like Toddler and the boys haven't lost they're touch at all !

BobsLawnService
31-10-2011, 10:54 AM
I'm personally looking forward to not planning my character and choosing whatever skills and weapons strike my fancy at level up time. One thing I'll probably give some attention to is bows. I tend to suck at melee combat in these games.

bussinrounds
31-10-2011, 11:00 AM
I don't know, ya'll. I think bussinrounds has some valid points here.

Of course, I personally still liked Oblivion and plunked like 100+ hours into it, but despite this I still would have a hard time refuting anything buss is saying here.


Part of why I think I overlooked its flaws was just that Oblivion was so new and shiny and pretty when it came out that the world probably seemed much bigger, better, and more exciting than it was. However, it lost its luster once you explored it a bit longer. And the same basic BEthesda open-world concept REALLY lost some more luster with FO3--which I think had many of the same problems, only they were more apparent from the start just because it was running on the same old boring gamebryo engine with all its flaws in tact.

Which is why I worry about "Skyrim." It's not going to have the innovative bells and whistles that Oblivion had on its release--so it has to get by entirely on the merits of its writing/world design. I hope it turns out well, but I guess I don't have much trust in Bethesda. The ES universe has never been all that unique or appealing or original. At least with FO3 BEthesda had the unique and interesting aesthetic of the original Fallout games to fall back on to give the game some character, but this time they don't even have that.

And, yeah, I'm also not encouraged by the 6gb size. Bioware also told us not to worry when it leaked in advance that DA2 was only 4gb (compared to DA:O's 11gb) and we all know how that turned out. When your new to it, that's the thing, at first it seems pretty cool, but the more you play and learn about it, the worse and worse it gets.

Vexing Vision
31-10-2011, 11:02 AM
I'm personally looking forward to not planning my character and choosing whatever skills and weapons strike my fancy at level up time. One thing I'll probably give some attention to is bows. I tend to suck at melee combat in these games.

Actually, that's pretty much the only thing I'm definitely not looking forward to. I love defining my character and viewpoint for my play-through. I prefer roleplaying-games where the character already has a background story - with a bland, non-descript character, that's a bit hard to do. Not impossible, mind you, but initially immersion-breaking for me.

Ah, the curse of being a niche-minority.

Ian
31-10-2011, 11:48 AM
I imagine that for me Skyrim will pretty much fall into the Oblivion category of there being more than enough that I like to outweight the stuff I don't like.


I don't need to refute anything anyone says to have fun. And that's all that matters to me.

+1.


And besides if ppl like Wizardry and i never came on to threads like this you would just have a contentions circle jerk of everyone just spewing how AWESOME the new ES game is gonna be. That would be pretty lame , no ?

You're totally right. In fact, I have a hard time finding places on the internet where people will argue black is white* for the sake of arguining it, and doing so in every single discussion that takes place. So kudos on bringing something fresh to our existence.

* And for that matter, black and white were way better back in the 80s.

Berzee
31-10-2011, 12:06 PM
Hello my name is Berzee and I too am excited for Skyrim. It's not a must-buy-on-launch-day game for me, but really no games ARE, excepting Bastion. =) It's certainly on my ever-shifting mental list, though.

Looking forward to not having the scary-zoomed-in-face-conversations anymore, most of all. =P

BobsLawnService
31-10-2011, 01:05 PM
QUOTE=Vexing Vision;51927]Actually, that's pretty much the only thing I'm definitely not looking forward to. I love defining my character and viewpoint for my play-through. I prefer roleplaying-games where the character already has a background story - with a bland, non-descript character, that's a bit hard to do. Not impossible, mind you, but initially immersion-breaking for me.

Ah, the curse of being a niche-minority.[/QUOTE]

What I described is pretty much me role playing me in a role playing game. I've never been much for planning and I am pretty sloppy in general at life. In Skyrim I'm going to play the dude who had the boring droll 9-5 job who was good at pretty much nothing but getting by and meeting expectations and obligations who has suddenly found himself with no expectations and obligations anymore. Mid-life crisis dude if you will.

Yeah, this has pretty much been a shocking and frank view into my psyche. Apologies folks.

Basilicus
31-10-2011, 01:46 PM
I think those of us looking forward to Skyrim are taking Bethesda's greater history into account.

No, Oblivion didn't meet the standard set by Morrowind. I still got a stupid amount of playtime from it and enjoyed some neat exploration and pretty sunsets.

But look at their history. Shivering Isles was a great expansion that returned the weird quite ably and was longer than most entire games published today.

Fallout 3 and its in-house DLCs were all solid and engaging, with some pretty stellar level and art design.

Morrowind was one of the best games ever created. Tribunal was solid fun and Bloodmoon was exquisite.

Redguard was tremendous fun, with great world design and solid combat. Battlespire was a fun bit of mess, and Daggerfall is one of the classics.

In their open-world games, I essentially see a mix of A- and B-titles. Maybe Oblivion gets a C. They have a history of stronger games in the genre, and there's no reason to believe that won't continue. You might not like their approach, but you can't deny that they have as many accepted classics within their specialty genre as any development house in gaming.

mr.doo
31-10-2011, 02:17 PM
A game is not perfect. Omg astounding, give these men the nobel prize.
Seriously, of course oblivion is not perfect. In fact I stumbled upon more flaws than the ones you trolls listed, but the fact is I really enjoyed it nonetheless. Skyrim will almost surely have flaws too. These games are not your cup of tea ? I'm sorry for you, now scram.

mr.doo
31-10-2011, 02:29 PM
It's a good concept, but executed poorly.

Look at this new vid... http://www.dailymotion.com/BethesdaSKYRIM#videoId=xm1bwa First 20 min of game.

Voice acting ...still painful Animations...still wooden Gameplay...still banal (creation engine?? ) Doesn't look like a 'brand new' engine to me. LOL

Looks like Toddler and the boys haven't lost they're touch at all !

Looks pretty cool to me ?

thegooseking
31-10-2011, 02:32 PM
I have to say that the idea that sharing enthusiasm for something could ever be considered a bad thing is rather distressing.

I also have to say that anyone who thinks they have to convince people that they're wrong in what are clearly matters of taste has either never heard the phrase "there's no accounting for taste", or doesn't know what it means.

Anthile
31-10-2011, 02:35 PM
I have to say that the idea that sharing enthusiasm for something could ever be considered a bad thing is rather distressing.

I also have to say that anyone who thinks they have to convince people that they're wrong in what are clearly matters of taste has either never heard the phrase "there's no accounting for taste", or doesn't know what it means.

Relevant: http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-who-enjoys-thing-informed-he-is-wrong,7057/

Berzee
31-10-2011, 02:48 PM
I have to say that the idea that sharing enthusiasm for something could ever be considered a bad thing is rather distressing.

Welp...there's no accounting for taste, eh?

Smashbox
31-10-2011, 03:17 PM
I watched the 20-min game opening, and it made me much more excited, honestly. I can't wait to play this.

I ask you: How can I get this for less than $60? That's quite a steep price.

thegooseking
31-10-2011, 04:14 PM
I watched the 20-min game opening, and it made me much more excited, honestly. I can't wait to play this.

I ask you: How can I get this for less than $60? That's quite a steep price.

Can you wait a month? I'm pretty sure it'll be reduced in the Steam Christmas sales. Being so new, it probably won't be reduced by much, but it'll be reduced. I think that's what I'm going to do.

sinister agent
31-10-2011, 04:37 PM
Buying anything in mid November is an act of folly.

Smashbox
31-10-2011, 04:41 PM
But I just simply can't wait. I have learned to accept it.

Vexing Vision
31-10-2011, 04:41 PM
Buying anything in mid November is an act of folly.

Yes, but this folly-preorder comes with a cloth map. A CLOTH MAP. JUST LIKE IN THE OLD DAYS OF ULTIMA.

I just want to point this out. Cloth maps are making me do foolish things that I refuse to regret.

Wizardry
31-10-2011, 04:53 PM
Yes, but this folly-preorder comes with a cloth map. A CLOTH MAP. JUST LIKE IN THE OLD DAYS OF ULTIMA.
Difference being that Richard Garriott insisted there be a cloth map in all copies of the Ultima games, regardless of whether they were pre-orders or not.

Vexing Vision
31-10-2011, 04:56 PM
Difference being that Richard Garriott insisted there be a cloth map in all copies of the Ultima games, regardless of whether they were pre-orders or not.

*sighs* I'll bite the trollbait. Of the three different Ultima boxes I have at home, only one of them came with a cloth map. It doesn't matter if you call it a Special Edition or a Preorder Special Edition - certainly not all Ultima games came shipping with cloth maps all the time. Different versions of the same packaging.

Oh, nevermind.


SKYRIM! <- Enthusiastic

Smashbox
31-10-2011, 05:01 PM
Difference being that Richard Garriott insisted there be a cloth map in all copies of the Ultima games, regardless of whether they were pre-orders or not.

Do fuck off you boring, old, discourse-poisoning withered husk of a man. We've all read your reheated single statement the countless times you rephrased and reposted it. Your omnipresent negativism is completely worthless.

BobsLawnService
31-10-2011, 05:13 PM
Who cares whether or not Ultima shipped cloth maps in the past SKYRIM IS SHIPPING WITH A CLOTH MAP RIGHT NOW!

Have fun waiting for your new Ultima Wizardry.

Skyrim fans WIN!

Wizardry
31-10-2011, 05:13 PM
*sighs* I'll bite the trollbait. Of the three different Ultima boxes I have at home, only one of them came with a cloth map. It doesn't matter if you call it a Special Edition or a Preorder Special Edition - certainly not all Ultima games came shipping with cloth maps all the time. Different versions of the same packaging.
You must have bought them second hand then. All original releases of the Ultima games came with cloth maps, other than Ultima 1 (which didn't have maps until the 1986 DOS release came with paper ones) and Ultima VII part 2 outside of the US (Europe had paper maps).


Who cares whether or not Ultima shipped cloth maps in the past SKYRIM IS SHIPPING WITH A CLOTH MAP RIGHT NOW!
Yes. It's shipping with a cloth map right now, but it won't be shipping with a cloth map after 11/11/11, unless they've changed their policy and I haven't heard about it.


Do fuck off you boring, old, discourse-poisoning withered husk of a man. We've all read your reheated single statement the countless times you rephrased and reposted it. Your omnipresent negativism is completely worthless.
Don't be rude. Thanks.

Dolphan
31-10-2011, 05:21 PM
With the last page or so of posts, this thread has turned into a genius-like parody of itself. Brilliant.

BobsLawnService
31-10-2011, 05:32 PM
11/11/11 is a lot sooner than you'll be seeing a new Ultima that is for sure.

Anyway. I am smugly satisfied by the knowledge that while I'm having a blast with Skyrim Wizardry is going to be sitting in a corner all alone pathetically muttering to himself about how shit everything is.

Does anyone else ever picture Wizardry as Milton in Office space mumbling about ancient RPGs instead of Swingline staplers?

Unaco
31-10-2011, 05:35 PM
Difference being that Richard Garriott insisted there be a cloth map in all copies of the Ultima games, regardless of whether they were pre-orders or not.

Shame Ultima was so awful.

db1331
31-10-2011, 05:38 PM
11/11/11 is a lot sooner than you'll be seeing a new Ultima that is for sure.

Anyway. I am smugly satisfied by the knowledge that while I'm having a blast with Skyrim Wizardry is going to be sitting in a corner all alone pathetically muttering to himself about how shit everything is.

Does anyone else ever picture Wizardry as Milton in Office space mumbling about ancient RPGs instead of Swingline staplers?

"Um, I am here about my copy of Ultima V. I was told it would come with a cloth map, but I did not receive one."

BobsLawnService
31-10-2011, 05:55 PM
The ratio of stats to RPG is too small.

SMiD
31-10-2011, 06:09 PM
This thread feels like an RPG.

Basilicus
31-10-2011, 06:17 PM
Difference being that Richard Garriott insisted there be a cloth map in all copies of the Ultima games, regardless of whether they were pre-orders or not.

What a jackass. I can't believe Richard Garriott was so hateful of the environment. Oh, and he shipped with paper boxes, too?!? I'm getting my Skyrim digitally. Why did Richard Garriott hate the Earth so much? I wonder if his cloth maps were made in Indonesia by poor orphans Richard Garriott paid only $0.03 a day and beat when they asked to eat more than twice a week.

God, that Richard Garriott. Too bad we had to learn the hard way the damage we were doing with the likes of Ultima and Wizardry. I think we can all agree things are much better now that cloth maps are regulated and limited in number to those willing to shell out a premier price for them. Probably so Bethesda can pay for those orphans' health insurance.

DigitalSignalX
31-10-2011, 06:19 PM
This thread feels like an RPG.

Lurking in the corner without drawing a dagger since page 1 has earned a patience feat.

Drake Sigar
31-10-2011, 06:23 PM
Shame Ultima was so awful.
Before this night is over, you will know the meaning of pain.

...

Pain: An unpleasant sensation occurring in varying degrees of severity as a consequence of injury, disease, or emotional disorder.

sinister agent
31-10-2011, 08:41 PM
Sure, I could have a cloth map. Or I could press the 'map' button for a far superior, interactive map, that based on the videos I've seen looks gorgeous. Balls to maps. They haven't been exciting since games could easily integrate maps with the game, which happened about 15 years ago.

Instead of preordering just for a map, why not pay some artsy online person half the price of the preorder to make you one?

Smashbox
31-10-2011, 08:46 PM
That's not a half bad idea. I wonder if you could make money selling cloth maps for popular games, or if you'd just be cease-and-desisted. I bet you could silkscreen some 3'x3' canvas and sell it for like $50.

DigitalSignalX
31-10-2011, 09:35 PM
Balls to maps. They haven't been exciting since ... about 15 years ago.

Have you heard of map porn (http://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/)? Respectfully disagree. Maps are awesome swag.

Wooly Wugga Wugga
01-11-2011, 05:25 PM
*sigh* I leave my thread for two days only to come back and see that Wizardry has managed to destroy yet another RPG thread. Seriously RPS mod type people, is there anything you can do? It's a little disheartening for people who want to actually talk about games.

Joseph-Sulphur
01-11-2011, 05:39 PM
*sigh* I leave my thread for two days only to come back and see that Wizardry has managed to destroy yet another RPG thread. Seriously RPS mod type people, is there anything you can do? It's a little disheartening for people who want to actually talk about games.
But don't you see!? You're wrong! God didn't give Wizardry his gigantic intellect and masterful powers of reasoning for no reason, did he?

Seriously though, fuck him. Just carry on as if he didn't exist. It's the sane thing to do.

Berzee
01-11-2011, 06:26 PM
All the moderation you need is this: say somethin' exciting about Skyrim and engage in conversation with responses you find interesting. =) I can't think of anything in particular at the moment that hasn't been said already, so assume I made some joke about mudcrabs.

Wizardry
01-11-2011, 06:29 PM
*sigh* I leave my thread for two days only to come back and see that Wizardry has managed to destroy yet another RPG thread. Seriously RPS mod type people, is there anything you can do? It's a little disheartening for people who want to actually talk about games.
I'm the person least at fault here. Have you realised that whatever I post gets commented on repeatedly for an entire page or more? I enter a thread, post my thoughts, and then 100 people take issue with it and bitch about how I live in the 80s or how I hate all games made after the 17th century. It's not my fault. I can't stop people from responding with these juvenile replies. Even when I disappear for a day it still continues. There was one thread in which people were talking about me over a week after I last posted in it.

lasikbear
01-11-2011, 06:35 PM
I watched the 20-min game opening, and it made me much more excited, honestly. I can't wait to play this.

I ask you: How can I get this for less than $60? That's quite a steep price.

I have the same dillema, thinking about seeing if Amazon has it as a download, but not looking likely. They almost always have new game downloads at 15-20% off. Other plan is trying to trade some TF2 items for it, but currently it seems the going price would be 2 earbuds, and I only have 1. Also going the amazon route may mean no preloading, which would rob you off that first precious half to full hour of playing. These are all my concerns.

WitchfinderG
01-11-2011, 06:40 PM
You must have bought them second hand then. All original releases of the Ultima games came with cloth maps, other than Ultima 1 (which didn't have maps until the 1986 DOS release came with paper ones) and Ultima VII part 2 outside of the US (Europe had paper maps).


Wow and i thought i was a nerd. Good job mister!

sinister agent
01-11-2011, 06:43 PM
So anyway. Skyrim, eh?

Will they have that secret underwater city of lizard people that I've been hoping for since Oblivion? Don't get me wrong, I think the lizard guys are boring, but being able to breathe underwater is so completely useless that it's just asking for a special bonus like that. Like how Vampire The Masquerade The Subtitle The Game had Malkavians and Nosferatu playstyle being special. It'd be neat to have that. It'd be nice if they could make forests and large trees something you could climb and lurk and run around in like the otherwise 'meh' Aliens Vs. Predator 2, too. You'd have to be a wood elf or cat or absurdly agile and/or have special perks to do it, but how much fun would that be?

Spider Jerusalem
01-11-2011, 06:56 PM
So anyway. Skyrim, eh?

Will they have that secret underwater city of lizard people that I've been hoping for since Oblivion? Don't get me wrong, I think the lizard guys are boring, but being able to breathe underwater is so completely useless that it's just asking for a special bonus like that. Like how Vampire The Masquerade The Subtitle The Game had Malkavians and Nosferatu playstyle being special. It'd be neat to have that. It'd be nice if they could make forests and large trees something you could climb and lurk and run around in like the otherwise 'meh' Aliens Vs. Predator 2, too. You'd have to be a wood elf or cat or absurdly agile and/or have special perks to do it, but how much fun would that be?
if it's cool and didn't happen in morrowind then it won't happen.

maybe a mod, though.

Keep
01-11-2011, 07:56 PM
I'm the person least at fault here. Have you realised that whatever I post gets commented on repeatedly for an entire page or more? I enter a thread, post my thoughts, and then 100 people take issue with it and bitch about how I live in the 80s or how I hate all games made after the 17th century. It's not my fault. I can't stop people from responding with these juvenile replies. Even when I disappear for a day it still continues. There was one thread in which people were talking about me over a week after I last posted in it.

Wizardry, can I take you aside for a sec? I know it seems like we're always launching attacks you and bitching over what you say. But honestly dude, most of us here have nothing against you.

Ok? So just...go have a think over what that means.

Berzee
01-11-2011, 09:50 PM
Dovahkiin, can I take you aside for a sec? I know it seems like we're always launching attacks against you and shouting over what you say in our magical dragon language, but that's just because there are infinity of us. Even if 99% of us are good guys, that's still infinity left over to give you a hard time.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we're already here.

You should have acted.

Jeremy
01-11-2011, 10:26 PM
As much as I enjoy a variety of games, including RPGs and such, I'm not excited about Skyrim for those elements. I just really enjoy having the freedom to explore, enter dungeons/castles/ruins/etc., and not be bothered by any long term goals. Sometimes that can just be enough, and while I'm glad there are other elements to it, to make it a bit more robust, ultimately I am playing it as sort of an interactive exploring game. It's how I approached Fallout, Oblivion, etc. and it really is pretty fun for me in that way. Regardless of what it is, or what it isn't, and if we should even bother trying to classify it, this is a game I'm excited about, and can't wait to get into it for 30 - 40 hours before some quality mods hit, and then I can play for another 30 - 40.

SirKicksalot
01-11-2011, 10:39 PM
In my mind, Skyrim is exactly like that Beowulf movie by Zemeckis.

Username
01-11-2011, 11:02 PM
I believe there will be playable dragons.

Fiyenyaa
02-11-2011, 12:14 AM
I'm the person least at fault here. Have you realised that whatever I post gets commented on repeatedly for an entire page or more? I enter a thread, post my thoughts, and then 100 people take issue with it and bitch about how I live in the 80s or how I hate all games made after the 17th century. It's not my fault. I can't stop people from responding with these juvenile replies.

I think the issue people have is this: your thoughts (at least as far as I've seen them) are always negative. Even the games which you do like are commonly referenced only to prove how contemporary games have devolved from your ideal (e.g. "Dragon Age is no Ultima"), so perhaps it's the consistently non-positive attitude that gets people.
Maybe if you wrote occasionally about why you loved those old games (without reference to how it's all crap now, even?), some of your experiences with them, and possibly maybe perhaps even a mention of some contemporary games that you do enjoy (there must be some), you'd be able to steer clear of some of the reputation you've garnered for yourself?


Even when I disappear for a day it still continues. There was one thread in which people were talking about me over a week after I last posted in it.

It's because you're notorious round these parts now. Most everyone who delves into the comments or the forums knows who you are, and as I recall you've been referenced on an actual real-life RPS post.
You're infamous for what you do, which comes as no surprise really.

EDIT: Just saw you liked Space Rangers 2. I KNEW it!

BobsLawnService
02-11-2011, 04:26 AM
Wizardry, if you want to talk ancient RPGs then start a new thread about old RPGs. Don't derail and shit up every single new thread by whining about the game not being Ultima so that we can't discuss anything else.

Cable
02-11-2011, 04:42 AM
I want to explore the world and find strange and glorious things (and in the game)

Wizardry
02-11-2011, 06:16 AM
Wizardry, if you want to talk ancient RPGs then start a new thread about old RPGs. Don't derail and shit up every single new thread by whining about the game not being Ultima so that we can't discuss anything else.
What the fuck? My last post on the subject: 31-10-2011 05:13 PM

This right here is proof of the following:

Even when I disappear for a day it still continues. There was one thread in which people were talking about me over a week after I last posted in it.

You are utterly pathetic and obsessed.

sinister agent
02-11-2011, 07:00 AM
It's an internet forum. People go for days without reading it. They're going to reach to what they read when they read it, not when you say it.

That said, I think every angle has been covered now, and we were having a nice chat about Skyrim. Let's get back to that, eh?

Stormbane
02-11-2011, 08:19 AM
I've been watching the leaked streams being played on the 360 and it looks pretty good. The graphics are much improved over Oblivion but there is the occasional low res texture. The combat is very similar to oblivion and the NPC AI and animation is almost exactly the same as oblivion. I think that is the worst thing so far. The animations are very stiff and AI is delayed and lifeless.

Like Oblivion and Fallout 3 however it looks like the scale of the world will make the small AI and animation complaints seem insignificant.

I was also watching some Uncharted 3 play through and that game looks so very polished. I can't help but wonder what an open world fantasy RPG made by naughty dog would look like.

BobsLawnService
02-11-2011, 08:52 AM
Given time and financial constraints I'd rather Bethesda spend more time on creating and populating the world than spend ages working on animation. Oddly enough on my first play through of Oblivion I didn't even notice the animation. I guess my brain just glossed over it because I was having so much fun.

Bristoff
02-11-2011, 10:10 AM
I was also watching some Uncharted 3 play through and that game looks so very polished. I can't help but wonder what an open world fantasy RPG made by naughty dog would look like.

Likely nothing like Uncharted. The Drake games are so ridiculously linear that if you happen to run into the background where you're not supposed to go, or jump over a fence in the wrong direction, you drop dead. Every ounce of power is used to show you the environment you're in, from exactly the point of view the devs want you to, exactly when they want you to. No doubt this is due to the PS3 being 5-6 years old at this point, but I doubt that kind of polish (or even close to it) is possible without an extremely linear approach to the gameplay.

Personally I can't wait to play Skyrim. It looks like a much improved Oblivion at this point, which is all I really want tbh.

Jeremy
02-11-2011, 03:46 PM
I agree Bobs.. the animation will most likely be revamped by mods anyway if they need the work. I know there were quite a few mods out there for Fallout 3 that really improved the animations.

@Stormbane,Bristoff:

I agree with Bristoff, and even without the hardware constraints of the PS3, making a game as wide open as a Fallout 3 or Skyrim, there are going to be some trade offs in other areas. Now, if you could do a 1:1 conversion, taking all of the best parts of both, then it might end up being the best game of all time :)

sinister agent
02-11-2011, 04:02 PM
Interesting. Animation mods are one of the few things I basically never touch, as they're so prone to errors and weirdness.

I really don't see what was so terrible with the animations in Fallout 3. I hear a lot of people complain (and some say they hadn't improved at all over Oblivion, which is just plain untrue), but I don't know what animations they're referring to.

Ian
02-11-2011, 04:52 PM
the PS3 being 5-6 years old at this point

Christ almighty. It's been out that long? D:

Unaco
02-11-2011, 05:37 PM
Animations where one of the major complaints from Oblivion. Skyrim is using some Mocap stuff, so it'll probably be a lot better.

Stormbane
02-11-2011, 09:06 PM
I think the short comings in Skyrims animation system seems more pronounced to me having recently watched Uncharted 3's animations in action.

Uncharted has several different gait animations, there are directional running and strafing animations, there are directional turning animations, there are stumbling animations and a whole host of arm animations interacting with nearby objects (like push off a wall when turning). I imagine some of the animation is procedurally generated as well, I know they employ reverse kinematics everywhere.

Wether mods could achieve all that for Skyrim... well I hope so.

bussinrounds
03-11-2011, 12:58 AM
Animations where one of the major complaints from Oblivion. Skyrim is using some Mocap stuff, so it'll probably be a lot better. Well i was just watching some live streams last night and the combat looks just like Oblivion. I thought this game was supposed to have some new engine or something ? Doesn't look like it.

And Wiz, don't let the haters get to you. Your a legend around these parts. Keep fighting the good fight BRO.

Dontpanic
03-11-2011, 01:13 AM
Really looking forward to it now, but I know deep down it will be full of bugs, game breaking features and going by Fallout 3 lock up continuously on my hardware.

I really hope the AI employs a tactic other than running directly at you this time as well.

Worst case is we have to wait a while for the modders to fix the game.

Althea
03-11-2011, 08:12 AM
I thought this game was supposed to have some new engine or something ? Doesn't look like it.
Yes, it's on a new engine. Oblivion was on a rather heavily - and poorly - modified Gamebryo engine, whereas Skyrim is on a new in-house engine called Creation.

Drake Sigar
03-11-2011, 08:59 AM
After playing The Witcher 2, I don't think I can go back to Xbox 360 graphics.

Rossignol
03-11-2011, 09:19 AM
After playing The Witcher 2, I don't think I can go back to Xbox 360 graphics.

That's my fear, too. I suspect I will dabble with Skyrim now and then come back in a year when someone has supplied hi-res textures and made clever trees.

Althea
03-11-2011, 09:25 AM
After playing The Witcher 2, I don't think I can go back to Xbox 360 graphics.
Really? At least Skyrim will most likely not keep going yellow on me.

Sigh. Just once I'd like to play TW2 without graphics issues.

Stormbane
03-11-2011, 09:42 AM
Yes, it's on a new engine. Oblivion was on a rather heavily - and poorly - modified Gamebryo engine, whereas Skyrim is on a new in-house engine called Creation.
Definately not. Having seen about 100 minutes of gameplay now I can assure you it is just a modified Gamebryo engine that they are calling the "Creation" engine after all that backlash they got for using the same shitty engine.

The similarities between Oblivion and Skyrim are immense! Like I mentioned above there are many improvements to the engine thats for sure. The graphics, namely the polygon count and texture quality is better. The character models are immensely improved. The animations and AI may be slightly better but I certainly can't tell the difference. The melee combat is almost exactly the same but now has some finisher cut-scene things as well as some cool blood splatters. I've read perks unlock decapitations latter but I have yet to see anything like that. Magic seems a bit better as well, shock bolts send ragdolls flying into walls. The voice acting is still sub-par but there is much more variety. There is a wierd new (dynamic?) snow texture system but looking too close at snowy textures looks pretty bad.

All the little flaws of oblivion are still around. Things like items clipping into each other, NPCs bugging out, occasional crappy textures, lack of enemy reaction during melee combat. Do not expect Skyrim to be using a new engine and you won't be disappointed.

What you are getting with Skyrim that you should be excited about however is a whole new world. Shining, shimmering, splendid... ahem

Having seen all that gameplay I am more excited to play Skyrim than ever. There are some thing that you will not expect... must... not... spoil

Althea
03-11-2011, 09:54 AM
Definately not. Having seen about 100 minutes of gameplay now I can assure you it is just a modified Gamebryo engine that they are calling the "Creation" engine after all that backlash they got for using the same shitty engine.
Gamebryo isn't shitty. Anyway, Bethesda have come out numerous times and said it's all-new and all in-house. And even if it is built on a Gamebryo base, that doesn't mean jack. The Dunia engine (Far Cry 2, modified/updated possibly for FC3) is an engine heavily based on the CryEngine, and it was really, really good.

So yeah, before we start criticising or making assumptions, let's wait until we have Skyrim in our hands.

gundrea
03-11-2011, 10:34 AM
So yeah, before we start criticising or making assumptions, let's wait until we have Skyrim in our hands.

It's far too late to make that kind of plea.

BobsLawnService
03-11-2011, 11:14 AM
One thing that I have noticed in the screenshots is how natural and amazing the mist and cloud effects are around the mountains. It looks utterly amazing.

Mountains always evoke a sense of epic timelessness and it looks like Bethesda have nailed that with the feeling of the world.

Ian
03-11-2011, 11:22 AM
Having seen all that gameplay I am more excited to play Skyrim than ever. There are some thing that you will not expect... must... not... spoil

Avoiding spoilers, obviously, are we talking... like... story/quest-wise or in terms of how things play out when you're out doing stuff?

I ask purely because I'd pretty much been working on the assumption thus far that Skyrim will be Oblivion, but more and better and with dragons.

Stormbane
03-11-2011, 11:40 AM
Ian I mean story/quest-wise as well as game mechanic. Very cool stuff.

Also UnravThreads you're setting yourself up for some disappointment but believe what you will it's only one more week now :)

Althea
03-11-2011, 11:49 AM
Also UnravThreads you're setting yourself up for some disappointment but believe what you will it's only one more week now :)
How am I? I don't base my thoughts of a game on its engine. As long as it installs fine and works, I'll be happy.

Anyway, I'm not getting my grubbies on it until December, so it should have at least a patch or two out by the time I get it.

Ian
03-11-2011, 11:50 AM
Ian I mean story/quest-wise as well as game mechanic. Very cool stuff.

Now I'm intrigued, you bastard. And we've still got 8 days to go. *shakes fist*

If I'm not surprised after a few hours of play I shall be waddling in here and demanding an explanation. ;)

Drake Sigar
03-11-2011, 12:06 PM
So yeah, before we start criticising or making assumptions, let's wait until we have Skyrim in our hands.

I HATE it when someone says that, it's always lurking around the corner isn't it? We're in a gaming forum talking about an upcoming game. Asking the participants to not speculate on what they've seen so far, regardless of how little that may be, is madness. Though maybe you're just flustered because Stormbane didn't add "but that's just my opinion" after every single sentence.

thegooseking
03-11-2011, 12:13 PM
Gamebryo isn't shitty. Anyway, Bethesda have come out numerous times and said it's all-new and all in-house.

Either way, we know it does stuff that Bethesda said couldn't be done in the Gamebryo engine. So either Bethesda were wrong, and it's overcome the problems Oblivion and Fallout 3 had with that engine (in which case, why complain about them using Gamebryo?), or it's a different engine (in which case, why complain about them using Gamebryo?).

Unaco
03-11-2011, 12:13 PM
After playing The Witcher 2, I don't think I can go back to Xbox 360 graphics.

Really? I don't know, seems a little 'shallow' to me. I've always felt that graphics are secondary to the rest of the game, a bonus, an extra. I don't think I'd dismiss a game purely for graphics... especially not an RPG, where imagination and the like are coming in to play.

TillEulenspiegel
03-11-2011, 12:28 PM
Really? I don't know, seems a little 'shallow' to me. I've always felt that graphics are secondary to the rest of the game, a bonus, an extra.
I'll keep bitching about loading screens for cities and that sort of thing. But complaining that the graphics are merely quite pretty rather than stupendously amazing does seem a bit silly. We still haven't seen the PC version, so who knows, but I'd bet that most people here won't be able to run it at the highest settings anyway.

Besides, today's amazing graphics are next year's "shit" (need I remind you that Morrowind was praised for its looks in 2002? so was Dungeon Siege (http://pc.ign.com/articles/383/383149p1.html)). The superlatives are hilarious in hindsight. Personally, I don't really care; the Quake III engine has been my low bar for acceptable 3D graphics for years. Good gameplay doesn't change.

Althea
03-11-2011, 12:33 PM
I HATE it when someone says that, it's always lurking around the corner isn't it? We're in a gaming forum talking about an upcoming game. Asking the participants to not speculate on what they've seen so far, regardless of how little that may be, is madness. Though maybe you're just flustered because Stormbane didn't add "but that's just my opinion" after every single sentence.
It's nothing to do with that. Until we have the files on our hard drives, until we explore them, there is no way we can say it's just a modified Gamebryo. It might just have the same "feel". We don't know, and after Bethesda have come out numerous times to say it's an all-new in-house engine, assuming otherwise is a bit daft, don't you think?

Either way, speculating is not the same as assuming. I'm all for speculating, I do it myself.


Either way, we know it does stuff that Bethesda said couldn't be done in the Gamebryo engine. So either Bethesda were wrong, and it's overcome the problems Oblivion and Fallout 3 had with that engine (in which case, why complain about them using Gamebryo?), or it's a different engine (in which case, why complain about them using Gamebryo?).
The problem with Bethesda and Gamebryo is they took a fairly good engine, and then kneecapped it. They really, really made a mess of it :(

thegooseking
03-11-2011, 12:34 PM
From a media psychology perspective, it's clear that quality of presentation does have an impact on engagement, but I'm not sure (and to be honest I'm not sure media psychologists are sure) what that really means. I think graphical fidelity plays only a small part in that (after all, in certain cases, lower fidelity (i.e. higher abstraction) can actually increase engagement because the brain is making a bigger investment in filling in the blanks.)

In any case, I think other factors are far more important to engagement.

Ian
03-11-2011, 12:40 PM
Graphics are at best a secondary concern for me. I only upgrade any aspect of my PC when it's close to being unable to run new games on even the lowest settings.

Skalpadda
03-11-2011, 01:26 PM
I tried to read through the thread, but it made me annoyed around 3 pages in so I'll just say I'm not hugely excited, but I look forward to playing it, especially since they seem to have remembered to not just make a pretty world, but one with interesting things to find as well.

Smashbox
03-11-2011, 01:52 PM
How did you folks spec your characters in Oblivion, and do you expect to continue on those paths?

I'm really keen to try out the spellcasting role, what with all the changes. Archery could be quite interesting, too.

Giaddon
03-11-2011, 01:57 PM
My first characters tend to break down into either "reclusive hunter" (light armor, archery, wilderness skills, sneak, etc) or "sophisticated tinkerer" (alchemy, barter/speech, some magic, etc.) roles.

Based on Skyrim's setting, I'm planning on the former.

Oh my god I hope Skyrim makes talking to people as mechanics-rich as New Vegas. On my recent replay I was surprised at just how much I could use skills to get what I wanted (rather than increasing someone's opinion of me through a dopey mini-game).

Ian
03-11-2011, 02:11 PM
First playthrough of Oblivion I went as a sneaky Khajit but either the limitations of assassin-ery or my gameplay meant any time you had to fight large groups or a proper boss were an exercise in frustration. Like the bit in the cave full of cultists I just had to leg it. I eventually gave up and started over as an orc with big armour and some beefy spells.

Stealth looks like it might be more viable this time, especially because during the big fights there'll still be shouts.

Dunno though, might just try and make a warrior-mage.

Smashbox
03-11-2011, 03:25 PM
My first characters tend to break down into either "reclusive hunter" (light armor, archery, wilderness skills, sneak, etc)

I can't wait for the mod that makes this kind of winter wildling play-style explicit (hunting, gathering, cooking, sleeping, surviving). It would be quite cool to have to consider warmth (clothing, fires, etc.) as an aspect of survival, considering the setting.

DigitalSignalX
03-11-2011, 03:37 PM
It would be quite cool to have to consider warmth (clothing, fires, etc.) as an aspect of survival, considering the setting.

Reminds me of hardcore mode in Fallout Vegas, which was rather obtrusive in vanilla, but can be modded nicely to be a more subtle gameplay element.

Wizardry
03-11-2011, 04:44 PM
Oh my god I hope Skyrim makes talking to people as mechanics-rich as New Vegas. On my recent replay I was surprised at just how much I could use skills to get what I wanted (rather than increasing someone's opinion of me through a dopey mini-game).
Scripted skill checks are hardly "mechanics". Dialogue mechanics are stuff like specifying your tone of voice and choosing what language to communicate in.

Smashbox
03-11-2011, 04:46 PM
Okay.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/003/617/okayguy.jpg?1283381711

Has anyone seen a map of the world yet? I want to stare at it longingly.

EDIT: Found one (http://cdn.gamerant.com/wp-content/uploads/Elder-Scolls-5-Skyrim-Map.jpg)

Ian
03-11-2011, 04:47 PM
Am I right in saying Oblivion had a combination of a speech skill and that weird speech "action" wheel, thing?

EDIT: You mean a more detailed map than this (http://media.bestofmicro.com/U/Q/310850/original/skyrim-map.jpg), I take it?

Althea
03-11-2011, 04:50 PM
Am I right in saying Oblivion had a combination of a speech skill and that weird speech "action" wheel, thing?
Yes, it did.

Wizardry
03-11-2011, 04:51 PM
Am I right in saying Oblivion had a combination of a speech skill and that weird speech "action" wheel, thing?
Yeah, but the speech wheel mini-game thing was both abysmal and completely divorced from dialogue. It was basically a disposition modifier mini-game. Sure, it was a mechanic, and a bad one at that, but it certainly wasn't a dialogue mechanic.

Ian
03-11-2011, 05:15 PM
Right. And does Skyrim have that again?

Because I sure hope not.

Skalpadda
03-11-2011, 05:26 PM
I've read/heard that the speech wheel will be dumped for Skyrim. Can't remember where I read/heard it though.

Jeremy
03-11-2011, 05:27 PM
I'm pretty sure they took it out. I seem to remember hearing something about that in one of the interviews/previews/videos.

Smashbox
03-11-2011, 06:13 PM
Chiming in: Yep I remember reading that, too.

Giaddon
03-11-2011, 06:30 PM
Scripted skill checks are hardly "mechanics". Dialogue mechanics are stuff like specifying your tone of voice and choosing what language to communicate in.

Yes, I see your point. I was trying to say how the skills allowed the dialogue checks to interact with other parts of the game (reading magazines, being on drugs, leveling a certain way, wearing certain clothes, etc.).

Hatman
03-11-2011, 09:30 PM
Wizardry, can I take you aside for a sec? I know it seems like we're always launching attacks you and bitching over what you say. But honestly dude, most of us here have nothing against you.

Ok? So just...go have a think over what that means.
Yeah, nobody hates him for who he is. He's only a worthless, moronic shrivelled-up husk who deserves banned because he has the wrong opinions, not because of any inherent personal characteristics. Don't see how he could possibly be confused about that, really.

Smashbox
03-11-2011, 09:32 PM
In case you haven't seen it, I rather enjoyed Tom Francis's write-up at PC Gamer:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/10/18/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-preview/

SirKicksalot
03-11-2011, 09:55 PM
How did you folks spec your characters in Oblivion, and do you expect to continue on those paths?



Nord (or whatever it's called). Basically looks like Aragorn. Uses blades, usually one-handed. Light armour. Some basic magic skills. A bit more alchemy. Looking forward to Skyrim's crafting. Some points dropped in speech - not too many though, it's a Bethesda game after all.
I usually aim to make a character that's pretty good at many things. I must strike a balance between being heavily specialised and not actually mastering anything.

Skalpadda
03-11-2011, 10:14 PM
I'll probably make a black lady, as usual (Redguard, if I remember it right?). Sneaking and bows looks like it might be fun in this one, with a bit of buff magic and conversation skills.

aquamarine
04-11-2011, 12:16 AM
I do think I'll give this a play but I will wait until it is deeply discounted. I got a free copy of Oblivion with a graphics card and I must say I couldn't make it very far. I'm not exactly sure why but most of these open-ended games are not appealing to me. I have something of a min/max compulsion and when there are too many choices of which I cannot fathom the consequences I'm afraid my brain just implodes.

Also, I can't help commenting on this, but really I enjoy reading this forums to see people's opinions on games, including Wizardry's. You may not agree with his viewpoints but they are more often then not on topic and valid. I must say making a second account to personally attack someone for expressing their opinions on a computer game is at best childish and quite possibly borderline psychotic.


Do fuck off you boring, old, discourse-poisoning withered husk of a man. We've all read your reheated single statement the countless times you rephrased and reposted it. Your omnipresent negativism is completely worthless.


Yeah, nobody hates him for who he is. He's only a worthless, moronic shrivelled-up husk who deserves banned because he has the wrong opinions, not because of any inherent personal characteristics. Don't see how he could possibly be confused about that, really.

Nalano
04-11-2011, 01:01 AM
I read Hatman's post as a sockpuppet defending Wizardry through the use of sarcasm.

DigitalSignalX
04-11-2011, 01:06 AM
I'll probably make a black lady, as usual (Redguard, if I remember it right?). Sneaking and bows looks like it might be fun in this one, with a bit of buff magic and conversation skills.

Exactly. Sneaky bow crits make me very happy. Then a quick switch to the trusty short blade if they violate personal space. I love bow users in games, but they can be hard to balance.


Long time RPS members might remember this one:

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/5595/slthief3rpseo9.jpg



I enjoy reading this forums to see people's opinions on games, including Wizardry's.

Agree.

deano2099
04-11-2011, 01:26 AM
Scripted skill checks are hardly "mechanics". Dialogue mechanics are stuff like specifying your tone of voice and choosing what language to communicate in.

Well if something is 'hardly mechanics' then by definition it is 'mechanics'. I do like the idea that there are degrees of 'mechanics' that this implies. Ultima is totally more mechanics than Baldur's Gate y'all!

Wizardry
04-11-2011, 01:44 AM
Well if something is 'hardly mechanics' then by definition it is 'mechanics'. I do like the idea that there are degrees of 'mechanics' that this implies. Ultima is totally more mechanics than Baldur's Gate y'all!
What are you on about? Scripted skill checks on arbitrary dialogue choices isn't a game mechanic. You may be made aware early on that there are skill checks in dialogue, but you won't know how many, where they are, which skills are checked and the exact requirements to pass them. This is completely different to having a mechanic such as language whereby each line of dialogue can be spoken in a player determined language, with the chance of successful communication depending on your character's speaking skill in that language and the target character's comprehension skill in that language.

One is inserted into the game's dialogue scripts by the developers, one by one, while the other is a core mechanical feature that is tied directly in to the skill system. A huge difference.

soldant
04-11-2011, 01:49 AM
What are you on about? Scripted skill checks on arbitrary dialogue choices isn't a game mechanic. You may be made aware early on that there are skill checks in dialogue, but you won't know how many, where they are, which skills are checked and the exact requirements to pass them. This is completely different to having a mechanic such as language whereby each line of dialogue can be spoken in a player determined language, with the chance of successful communication depending on your character's speaking skill in that language and the target character's comprehension skill in that language.
So... basically what you're saying is one is a numbers check, and the other is a numbers check.

Right. Well, that makes perfect sense.

sinister agent
04-11-2011, 01:52 AM
Exactly. Sneaky bow crits make me very happy. Then a quick switch to the trusty short blade if they violate personal space. I love bow users in games, but they can be hard to balance.


Long time RPS members might remember this one:

(image)


Same here. One that I'm really hoping for from Cloudlick is that they make shields effective against arrows. It really annoyed me that an arrow hitting a metal shield still damaged your health, as Mount and Blade had given me the habit of raising it whenever an archer is in sight. Also as I played with damage mods to make combat less of a chore, arrows became horrifically dangerous. That would be fine - good even - but only if shields actually function as they're supposed to, so that they had a counter. Otherwise archers were just unstoppable.

Wizardry
04-11-2011, 01:56 AM
So... basically what you're saying is one is a numbers check, and the other is a numbers check.

Right. Well, that makes perfect sense.
No. One is something the player can work character development towards, while the other is there to switch content from one thing to another.

Nalano
04-11-2011, 03:00 AM
with the chance of successful communication depending on your character's speaking skill in that language and the target character's comprehension skill in that language.

One wonders if Wizardry took enough points in forum posting. I mean, sure, we understand him, but...


Same here. One that I'm really hoping for from Cloudlick is that they make shields effective against arrows. It really annoyed me that an arrow hitting a metal shield still damaged your health

Shield or no shield, have you ever attempted to stop an arrow? They have a lot of force behind them.

jp0249107
04-11-2011, 03:48 AM
I'm looking forward to Skyrim actually. I had a horrible time with Oblivion mainly because of the awful combat. I was simply swinging the sword and then backing off and then advancing, rinse and repeat. I couldn't get into Morrowind either because I just didn't like they way combat worked. It's like I could tell there was a dice roll going on behind the swing of my sword. But that was quite awhile back so it could have been my impatient young self rather than the game.

I watched that 20 min preview video where the guy fought two dragons and it looked like an improvement over both of my previous experiences. Combat looks better and it seems as if it's keeping up the open world aesthetic mixed in with some quest lines. Even though the color pallet may look a bit "same-y" I'm liking it. As long as they switch it up a bit I'll be fine. I haven't looked at absolutely everything that has been released for it but it's piqued my interest enough for me to watch how things go on launch day and possibly picking it up whenever I get the chance.

I hope things stay civil here...I would rather this place not turn into reddit...*shudder*

agentorange
04-11-2011, 04:49 AM
I'm looking forward to Skyrim actually. I had a horrible time with Oblivion mainly because of the awful combat...

I was a watching a livestream of a leaked copy, and the combat looked almost entirely the same as Oblivion. It still consisted entirely of swinging the sword (or axe) back and forth like a madman, then stepping back for a few seconds as your opponent did the same. The only difference now is that you will be randomly interrupted and forced to sit through a scripted kill scene once in a while. And considering how much of a fuss they made about their new animation technology, it seems even more ridiculous that the enemy combatants do not so much as flinch when smashed in the face by a 2 hand axe.

sinister agent
04-11-2011, 05:23 AM
Shield or no shield, have you ever attempted to stop an arrow? They have a lot of force behind them.

I'm reasonably sure that an arrow hitting a piece of wood (or indeed, iron) you're holding up and braced against will do a little bit less damage than that same arrow hitting, say, your kidney.

It would sense to have arrows hitting your shield tire you out a bit though, yeah.

That Tom Francis preview bit is rather interesting (and amusing, as is his standard). I am mostly reassured by his optimism about it.

Wooly Wugga Wugga
04-11-2011, 06:13 AM
I'm not too sure how Oblivions combat was any worse than any other open world RPG that has ever been released. I'd say that it is a lot better than the Gothics and Risens of the world. We need to keep these things in perspective. Melee combat is difficult to model in a game and I'm not going to get too upset if games don't quite get it right because in my mind nobody has yet.

As for what character I'm going to play it's going to be a kitty magic user with some skills in blades and crafting I think.

Grizzly
04-11-2011, 06:36 AM
So... basically what you're saying is one is a numbers check, and the other is a numbers check.

Right. Well, that makes perfect sense.

I think he means that one is a numbers check, and the other is also a numbers check, but a much deeper numbers check where you do not actually know the results of untill you actually try it. The results of many numbers checks in this conversation and future conversations of the character are cumulative, like some sort of grand strategy, instead of just an extra added dialog option which has the word [SPEECH] written in front of it.

A bit like Deus Ex HR and Alpha Protocol, but with a 'speech' skill and a 'charisma' modifier also counting into the equation. And without CASIE.

sinister agent
04-11-2011, 06:56 AM
I'm not too sure how Oblivions combat was any worse than any other open world RPG that has ever been released. I'd say that it is a lot better than the Gothics and Risens of the world. We need to keep these things in perspective. Melee combat is difficult to model in a game and I'm not going to get too upset if games don't quite get it right because in my mind nobody has yet.

As for what character I'm going to play it's going to be a kitty magic user with some skills in blades and crafting I think.

Agreed, but Mount and Blade has been on the radar for what, four years now? There's really no excuse for its combat model not being the minimum standard for any swordy game.

Wooly Wugga Wugga
04-11-2011, 09:00 AM
Agreed, but Mount and Blade has been on the radar for what, four years now? There's really no excuse for its combat model not being the minimum standard for any swordy game.

While I can appreciate what Mount and Blade has done with their combat I personally find it more frustrating than fun. It's a little too anal and unfair. I don't begrudge that niche for people who enjoy it but for most people it's just not going to work for a larger audience.

Vexing Vision
04-11-2011, 09:22 AM
Agreed, but Mount and Blade has been on the radar for what, four years now? There's really no excuse for its combat model not being the minimum standard for any swordy game.

And Die By The Sword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_by_the_Sword) was out by 1998. There's no excuse why that's still not the standard in swordfighting.

Different gamers, different tastes. I love Mount & Blade very much, but I actually prefer Gothic's (1+2, we don't speak about the other bits) combat system because I find it more cinematic and enjoyable, and it clicks quite naturally for me. (I hear I'm the only one, though.)

Daggerfall's combat was lovely. Morrowind's was.. hm.. Oblivion's system wasn't very enjoyable to me. Let's see what Skyrim does.

Althea
04-11-2011, 09:23 AM
Morrowind's combat was broken, Oblivion's combat was functional but little else. As long as LMB is attack and RMB is block, I'll be fine.

Ian
04-11-2011, 10:21 AM
This has been said in this thread already I think, I'd be happy if every first-person RPG-type just stole Dark Messiah's melee combat. Though a hefty element of that is probably the physics rather than the actual combat.

I have never played Mount and Blade so I can't comment on it or compare the two, if indeed there's a comparison to be made.

gundrea
04-11-2011, 10:41 AM
I enjoyed Risen's combat. The tension in the air as you held back, shielf high, sword hot. The glare of your opponent as you size one another up. The moment of truth as you strike. The horror as the vulture interrupts your strike and pecks in the face.

Oblivion by contrast was me slowly plodding up a hill to sword those annoying bandit archers in the head.

mrpier
04-11-2011, 11:05 AM
Apropos the force of an arrow I googled this up:

http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/articles/howhard.htm
http://tradgang.com/ashby/Momentum%20Kinetic%20Energy%20and%20Arrow%20Penetr ation.htm

This is completely on a tangent to this discussion, but being a nerd I had to look it up. So consider this something for those who are interested.

Keep
04-11-2011, 11:05 AM
So... basically what you're saying is one is a numbers check, and the other is a numbers check.

Right. Well, that makes perfect sense.

I think the difference is (analogy coming up), Wizardry's dialogue mechanics are like opening doors by picking a lock, whereas scripted skill checks are like needing the right key.

Sure, for any one event the difference is null, but looking at it in terms of the gameworld at large, the latter depends on developers having prepared keys for every lock you might come across, whereas the former just requires the locks to be placed and the rest'll take care of itself.

Dialogue mechanics like Wizardry's defending make way for more freedom, less hand holding "here's the game we want people to play".

Drake Sigar
04-11-2011, 11:09 AM
Oblivion had some actual physics with strong attacks, but you couldn't move at the same time and were best off flailing your weapon around as fast as possible like an amateur baton twirler in a move I like to call 'the Windmill'. Hopefully Skyrim will improve upon this and add positioning as another key element. More games need to take combat tips from Dark Messiah or Mount & Blade.

oldchap
04-11-2011, 11:40 AM
Well, this thread made me annoyed enough to actually register and say this; it is very peculiar that in a thread titled 'Shall we talk about Skyrim?' that posters who explain quite clearly their negative views about the game get sworn at, dismissed, and offered up for the ban*. The name of the thread implies discussion and debate, OP. Not sure why you'd expect (or want, really) only super-excited-can't-wait-buy-it-three-times posts.

Me, I think it's 'ok' for a game simply to be about exploring a good-looking and open world. But I'd prefer that good-looking and open world to also provide 1) many, many more opportunities for the player to use their stats meaningfully and with variety within the gameworld, and 2) far more nuance, originality, vision and character to the writing and setting than we generally see nowadays in a Bethesda game. Otherwise the future of Bethesda gaming is, I solemnly predict, an incredibly-detailed world with a million houses, each one of them with two cars in every garage and fourteen individually-placed spoons in every kitchen drawer, and a million lifeless mannequins that are programmed to go to bed at night and come out in the day and walk into the toilet every three hours, and the player character gets to mod in a clown outfit and go around pretending to be a clown in their head despite a lack of any in-game references to clowns or mechanics involving clowns, because that's what role-playing is, apparently.

Which is, you know, 'ok'.

Comparing modern games to 'ancient RPGs' is always interesting; because the genre has a varied and innovative history all of its own. And ignoring that history, or the interesting things that older games achieved that are, just perhaps, lacking in your favourite modern game, on the grounds that those people who insist on talking about it are all just loser wannabe-hardcore neckbeards WHO SHOULD SHUT THEIR FAT MOUTHS is genuinely damaging to the way we, as a gaming culture, view RPGs.

*Yeah, I know, sockpuppet, white-knight, etc.

Wooly Wugga Wugga
04-11-2011, 12:15 PM
oldchap - In this case I did want this thread to be where people who are genuinely excited or interested in the game to get together and have a chat. Telling people that Skyrim sucks because Ultima shipped with a map twenty years ago is just anti-social behaviour of the worst order and completely unconducive to a worthwhile discussion.

When every single RPG thread on a site gets derailed by one dude with an obsession for ancient games then people get annoyed. Maybe you're new here so you haven't seen it but it is becoming literally impossible to have a meaningful discussion about contemporary RPGs here at RPS.

I'm also tired of the constant stream of negativity that gets posted whenever it seems like some people are actually enthusiastic about something. Do you know what? I don't give a fuck if you don't like Skyrim. Piss off and start your own thread about how everything just sucks.

Unaco
04-11-2011, 12:27 PM
oldchap - In this case I did want this thread to be where people who are genuinely excited or interested in the game to get together and have a chat. Telling people that Skyrim sucks because Ultima shipped with a map twenty years ago is just anti-social behaviour of the worst order and completely unconducive to a worthwhile discussion.

When every single RPG thread on a site gets derailed by one dude with an obsession for ancient games then people get annoyed. Maybe you're new here so you haven't seen it but it is becoming literally impossible to have a meaningful discussion about contemporary RPGs here at RPS.

I'm also tired of the constant stream of negativity that gets posted whenever it seems like some people are actually enthusiastic about something. Do you know what? I don't give a fuck if you don't like Skyrim. Piss off and start your own thread about how everything just sucks.

Was about to post something very similar. Except for maybe the last sentence or two.

I have come up with a solution to the whole thing on my end... an ever growing Ignore List. Wizardry, bussinrounds, hatman... and now oldchap. Simple.

Wooly Wugga Wugga
04-11-2011, 12:37 PM
Was about to post something very similar. Except for maybe the last sentence or two.

I have come up with a solution to the whole thing on my end... an ever growing Ignore List. Wizardry, bussinrounds, hatman... and now oldchap. Simple.

The thing is that Wizardry does know a hell of a lot about classic RPG's so in the correct context and when it is actually appropriate to talk about them he can be an interesting guy. It's not that I want to shut myself off from the opinions that other people have, I just wish they'd realize when it is appropriate to voice those opinions. Finally, when a good number of people start asking you to temper your behaviour because it is becoming over the top then it's a good sign that you should probably self-moderate.

oldchap
04-11-2011, 12:38 PM
I'm also tired of the constant stream of negativity that gets posted whenever it seems like some people are actually enthusiastic about something. Do you know what? I don't give a fuck if you don't like Skyrim. Piss off and start your own thread about how everything just sucks.

I can sympathise with what you're saying in the first two paragraphs, even if I don't entirely agree - but what you're advocating here isn't a forum. Isn't it better to have a mixture of enthusiasm and cynicism (even if that includes both anti-social, one-note moaning AND enthusiasm which is a bit over-the-top) than a bunch of threads titled 'Skyrim Appreciation Thread - Only Post Here If You Have Nice Things To Say', the walling-off of opinions so everyone can agree with each other in separate communities?


I have come up with a solution to the whole thing on my end... an ever growing Ignore List. Wizardry, bussinrounds, hatman... and now oldchap. Simple.

Oh, for heaven's sake...

Unaco
04-11-2011, 12:42 PM
Finally, when a good number of people start asking you to temper your behaviour because it is becoming over the top then it's a good sign that you should probably self-moderate.

Exactly. Much better that than have every thread derailed completely.

gundrea
04-11-2011, 12:43 PM
When you think about it the plot of Skyrim is a lot like this thread.

mike2R
04-11-2011, 12:47 PM
Well I know this is very sad, but I've just booked next Friday off work :) Think I'm going to go for a spellsword type. Not sure how I feel about the removal of explicit classes; probably a good thing initially since I'm a passed master of picking useless character builds on my first time in a new RPG. I imagine I'll miss it if I play it again later though, since I like the whole defining my character bit.

Cautiously dipping my toe in the ongoing argument: I think a good part of the problem is that if you have spent over a hundred hours playing and enjoying a game, as I have with Oblivion, it is hard not to take it personally when someone dismisses the game as useless. What is probably only meant as a technical criticism of particular game mechanics can come across as classifying anyone who could enjoy such a game as simpleminded.

Me, I'm pretty well adjusted to the fact that I like my RPGs nice, mainstream and modern. I prefer Oblivion to Morrowind, and Mass Effect 2 to Mass Effect 1. I tried to get into Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines after buying it in the recent sale, which has demonstrated to me how much I prefer having a nice big coloured marker to tell me where I'm meant to go next. Basically I'm what is wrong with RPGs today, and I don't give a damn :)

Jockie
04-11-2011, 12:49 PM
oldchap In normal circumstances I don't have an issue with dissenting voices or people pointing out the negatives. But as Wooly says, on RPS forum it's become self-defeating to even try and have a discussion about RPG's, because this exact same debate arises every single time (I think we could probably find more than a dozen topics of the same nature in the last 6 months), overpowering the topic and turning it into another pointless back and forth between the New vs the Old.

Most of us who are looking forward to Skyrim, admit that compromise has been made in the recent Elder Scrolls games with regards to consoles. But there are still few developers that go out of their way to create worlds for us to immerse ourselves in to such a degree. It may not conform rigidly to stable mechanics, but there are still a lot of admirable traits to be found in Bethesda's more recent games.

jp0249107
04-11-2011, 12:54 PM
I was a watching a livestream of a leaked copy, and the combat looked almost entirely the same as Oblivion. It still consisted entirely of swinging the sword (or axe) back and forth like a madman, then stepping back for a few seconds as your opponent did the same. The only difference now is that you will be randomly interrupted and forced to sit through a scripted kill scene once in a while. And considering how much of a fuss they made about their new animation technology, it seems even more ridiculous that the enemy combatants do not so much as flinch when smashed in the face by a 2 hand axe.

....well crap then....meh I'll still keep it on my radar for the sake of the mods that will come out and the playtime it will get.

Wooly Wugga Wugga
04-11-2011, 01:09 PM
I can sympathise with what you're saying in the first two paragraphs, even if I don't entirely agree - but what you're advocating here isn't a forum. Isn't it better to have a mixture of enthusiasm and cynicism (even if that includes both anti-social, one-note moaning AND enthusiasm which is a bit over-the-top) than a bunch of threads titled 'Skyrim Appreciation Thread - Only Post Here If You Have Nice Things To Say', the walling-off of opinions so everyone can agree with each other in separate communities?

"I hope they spend some time on resolving the animation issues of Oblivion" is a perfectly reasonable criticism which encourages conversation and you'd be insane to take issue with it.

"Nothing about Skyrim is very appealing." - Is just petulant.

"Anyone else concerned that the required disk space for install is only 6GB? Does this mean we're stuck with low-res console textures, or are Bethesda really amazing at compressing assets?" - Once again a valid concern.

"It's good to know Bethesda's investment in marketing is paying off." in response to a positive view on the game. Where is the value to the discussion?

" It really annoyed me that an arrow hitting a metal shield still damaged your health, as Mount and Blade had given me the habit of raising it whenever an archer is in sight." - The man has a point.

"I agree with Wizardry. Shit hiking/Larping simulator is shit. " - Once again, what does this contribute?


"Oblivion by contrast was me slowly plodding up a hill to sword those annoying bandit archers in the head." - Fair.

"Looks like Toddler and the boys haven't lost they're touch at all !" - No.

-------------------

This is kind of what I mean.

Drake Sigar
04-11-2011, 01:28 PM
Was about to post something very similar. Except for maybe the last sentence or two.

I have come up with a solution to the whole thing on my end... an ever growing Ignore List. Wizardry, bussinrounds, hatman... and now oldchap. Simple.
Oh yeah? Well I ignored him twice as hard as you! First I put him on my ignore list, then I signed up for a new account so I could ignore him again.

Smashbox
04-11-2011, 01:36 PM
Apropos the force of an arrow I googled this up:

http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/articles/howhard.htm
http://tradgang.com/ashby/Momentum%20Kinetic%20Energy%20and%20Arrow%20Penetr ation.htm

This is completely on a tangent to this discussion, but being a nerd I had to look it up. So consider this something for those who are interested.

If those numbers are correct... according to my calculations, getting shot with a gun really sucks.

Also


On RPS forum it's become self-defeating to even try and have a discussion about RPGs, because this exact same debate arises every single time (I think we could probably find more than a dozen topics of the same nature in the last 6 months), overpowering the topic and turning it into another pointless back and forth between the New vs the Old.

That's the crux of it.

Ian
04-11-2011, 02:07 PM
wot jockie sed.

Though it's more of an internet issue with any topic in general than specifically RPS and RPGs.

Unaco
04-11-2011, 02:13 PM
Oh yeah? Well I ignored him twice as hard as you! First I put him on my ignore list, then I signed up for a new account so I could ignore him again.

Good for you.

The point of the Ignore thing, and why I mentioned it, is because if we just ignore the people who we tend to get into 'arguments' with, and derail threads, it avoids it completely... there's no derailing, and threads can stay on topic. It also avoids things like the last few sentences of Wooly's post that I quoted there... "Do you know what? I don't give a fuck if you don't like Skyrim. Piss off and start your own thread about how everything just sucks."

Rather than that... telling people to p*ss off, get out the thread etc... I think the Ignore function is a lot less distracting.

Wooly Wugga Wugga
04-11-2011, 02:16 PM
It also avoids things like the last few sentences of Wooly's post that I quoted there... "Do you know what? I don't give a fuck if you don't like Skyrim. Piss off and start your own thread about how everything just sucks."

Yeah, apologies for that. In hindsight it was a bit over the top and unneccesary.

Drake Sigar
04-11-2011, 02:20 PM
Good for you.

The point of the Ignore thing, and why I mentioned it, is because if we just ignore the people who we tend to get into 'arguments' with, and derail threads, it avoids it completely... there's no derailing
You know what else helps? The barest whisper of self-control.

*Snaps fingers back and forth like a fiesty minority psychic*

Smashbox
04-11-2011, 03:47 PM
We actually had a Skyrim discussion rather than a Skyrim Discusson discussion going for almost a page.

Anway, Skyrim.

Does the game come out in the UK next Friday, as well? No oceans, etc.

Looks like it'll be out a few hours early on the West Coast, USA. (http://www.pcworld.com/article/243096/want_to_play_skyrim_early_bethesdas_working_on_it. html)

Also: I read that they have 70+ voice actors this time, a huge improvement over the, what, 3 guys who acted Oblivion and Fallout? Actual actors, too. There's a promo video about the game's sound here. (http://nerdreactor.com/2011/11/03/let-skyrims-choir-of-vikings-boost-your-experience-70-voice-actors/)

Ian
04-11-2011, 03:54 PM
Taking a minute to consider whether you can actually be arsed arguing with somebody doesn't stop them actually pissing you off though, does it?

I don't bother much with ignore lists myself because I find there are very few people who never have interesting things to say, but I don't get why on various forums I've been on they're treated as a big deal. If somebody's impulsive enough that they'll bash out an irritable response before stopping to think about whether it's worth the effort and there are members who always rub them up the wrong way then using the ignore function is for the best of everybody on the forum, surely?

EDIT:
Anyway, yes. SKYRIM.

I find that the part I'm most looking forward to at this stage is the first moment we get out of whatever prison/dungeon/sewer/Burger King we find ourselves horrifically entrenched in while it teaches us about levelling and shit. When we first get to feast our eyes upon the world, look around and decide which random direction to run off in.

The bit I'm looking forward to is one that'll be out of the way pretty quickly. :-P

Skalpadda
04-11-2011, 03:59 PM
Anyone know any details about the levelling system? I seem to remember they wanted something a little more like the FO3 system, with perks and all, but I assume you'll still level up through skill increases rather than a straight experience system?

Vexing Vision
04-11-2011, 03:59 PM
So, hoping for becoming both a mage and a fighter-guildmember this time. The marriage stuff sounds a bit odd though, but if I can build meaningful reciprocal friendships with some NPCs, that's something to look forward to.

I remember the mage guild in Morrowind - there was a young Bosmer woman who was just so nice that I actually began to feel a deep and mutual friendship for her.

This didn't happen for me in Oblivion, although one of the gladiators came quite close.

Smashbox
04-11-2011, 04:05 PM
Anyone know any details about the levelling system? I seem to remember they wanted something a little more like the FO3 system, with perks and all, but I assume you'll still level up through skill increases rather than a straight experience system?

There was an RPS piece which clarified some of this stuff (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/04/18/skyrim-skills/).

Quoth Todd Howard:


“Every skill affects your levelling. Every time I get a skill raise there’s a level bar that moves. The higher the skill the more it pushes you to levelling, so you want to use your higher skills.”

“There’s no level cap. there’s no mathematical level cap, But it’s however it works out, we don’t set it… Levelling is faster. if oblivion was a level 25 game this is level 50. we wanted to get it faster going because there are so many perks.”

On the more grindy skill-levelling: “we’ve solved most of that” and “got rid of some skills like Athletics and Acrobatics. Who makes a character that is like “I am someone who doesn’t run?”

On dynamic world levelling: “the gameplay changes as you get higher level [because of the perks. Rather than just doing more damage… it’s dramatic… mixing and matching really is different.”

Another quote pertaining to an earlier conversation in this thread:


The speech skill: “There is not a Persuasion wheel. It’s much more simplified. There’s not a mini-game for it.” He declined to describe it until later, however.

Unaco
04-11-2011, 04:13 PM
The Tom Francis PC_gamer preview, that someone linked a few pages back, gives some details on the levelling system. Sounds like it's quite similar to previous TES Games... use a skill to improve it, enough skills increased == Level Up. But, there is the Perk system now, which is apparently quite nice... flexible, loads of scope and different choices, some perks have requirements, lots of opportunity for fun & powerful high level characters.

Most of it is at the top, and the bottom, of this page of it...

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/10/18/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-preview/5/

Skalpadda
04-11-2011, 04:16 PM
Thanks, no idea how I managed to miss the RPS article about it. Sounds like a definite improvement, but it'll be interesting to see how the world scaling as you level works out this time. The levelling system in Oblivion was definitely one of the more annoying parts of it.

Smashbox
04-11-2011, 04:18 PM
It's definitely hard to role-play when you're hop hop hopping everywhere you go to "make your legs stronger." (is that the conceit in Oblivion?) Unless you're role-playing a goddamn fool.