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danimalkingdom
21-11-2011, 11:48 PM
...And I couldn't get past the first rat. For real. I look straight at the little guy, the little squeaky fellow and I swing and swing my sword and I cannot hit him. I'm sorry. I felt the necessity to share this. Skyrim's dragon? Ain't no thang. Daggerfall rats, crazy hard.

Is anyone else starting Daggerfall XL?

vinraith
21-11-2011, 11:50 PM
I'm extremely interested, but I got the sense from the RPS article that I'd be better off waiting for awhile. It's not remotely done, after all.

Wizardry
22-11-2011, 12:05 AM
I can't comment on DaggerXL. Might be bugged. Might just be your shitty character.

archonsod
22-11-2011, 03:03 AM
Think yourself lucky. If it's the same as Daggerfall was, around that corner is an Imp you can only actually hurt if you took the ebony dagger during the start up options.

agentorange
22-11-2011, 05:49 AM
I got through the starting dungeon no problem, died maybe once to a bandit, and a few times to the final skeleton dude. You probably just fucked up in character creation.

riadsala
22-11-2011, 10:46 AM
I was thinking of starting Daggerfall soon. (not the XL version as that's nowhere near finished is it?).

Sounds like I should read up a little before I start? Or maybe it isn't the game for me? I like discovering things. I dislike using maxmin builds as they're boring and reduce play choice to simply following a list of instructions.

danimalkingdom
22-11-2011, 10:54 AM
I got through the starting dungeon no problem, died maybe once to a bandit, and a few times to the final skeleton dude. You probably just fucked up in character creation.

I love that I might have 'fucked up in character creation' so much that my character is unable to kill a rat.

Definitely going back with the same character. What a marvellous loser he is.

Vexing Vision
22-11-2011, 10:55 AM
Daggerfall punishes exploration. Especially in the first dungeon. Some rooms WILL kill you unless you made the "right" decisions during character generation, but ALL "death-trap" rooms can be avoided (if I remember correctly, the imp for example is in a room you do not have to pass).

I miss climbing and jumping and flight.

*sighs*

agentorange
22-11-2011, 11:19 AM
Definitely going back with the same character. What a marvellous loser he is.

Can't really tell if you're joking...but, that's not a good idea. If your character is down in the shit abyss that early on, it's not gonna be much fun when you encounter bandits and skeletons. Just choose one of the pre-made characters if you're having so much trouble.

riadsala
22-11-2011, 11:25 AM
Sounds like, well, a bad game. What's the point of offering lots of player choice if, at the end of the day, the game is unplayable unless you stick to a narrow path of options.

We will see though. I will give it a try, and document my failures on my blog. I'll be needing a new game once I'm done with my FfH2 playthrough :)

Vexing Vision
22-11-2011, 11:44 AM
Sounds like, well, a bad game. What's the point of offering lots of player choice if, at the end of the day, the game is unplayable unless you stick to a narrow path of options.

Quite the opposite - to me, at least. It's a great game, because it allows you to tackle things in a way that will get you killed. Just like in real life. :D

There is a definite lack of hand-holding there, which I remember quite fondly. It's just a very different and unusual design-theory compared to today's gaming philosophy.

hamster
22-11-2011, 11:51 AM
Wizardry said that Daggerfall is the best of the series. Is this game really better than Morrowind? I might give it a go but if the graphics are too horrible I might give it a pass.

Vexing Vision
22-11-2011, 11:56 AM
It's different from Morrowind. And for modern-day eyes, the graphic is pretty horrible, yeah.

Back then, it was the most atmospheric game I ever played. It was the first game that literally gave me the chills when first witnessing Daggerfall by night....

It also had the best procedurally generated dungeons ever. Yes, this includes rogue-likes. :)

hamster
22-11-2011, 11:59 AM
It's free now, right? Gonna check out some screenshots.

agentorange
22-11-2011, 12:28 PM
Wizardry said that Daggerfall is the best of the series. Is this game really better than Morrowind? I might give it a go but if the graphics are too horrible I might give it a pass.

The graphics aren't the problem, though they are very simple and uninteresting compared to the style of Morrowind; it's that everything in the game is randomized and procedurally generated, so unless you like seeing the same basic town structure over and over, and walking across seemingly endless expanses of empty terrain, and doing the same set of quests, you won't have much fun with it.

QuantaCat
22-11-2011, 01:47 PM
This explains a lot why the story in elder scrolls games are so horrid.

riadsala
22-11-2011, 02:44 PM
Quite the opposite - to me, at least. It's a great game, because it allows you to tackle things in a way that will get you killed. Just like in real life. :D

There is a definite lack of hand-holding there, which I remember quite fondly. It's just a very different and unusual design-theory compared to today's gaming philosophy.

Ok. Then I will approach it with the "losing is fun" DwarfFortress mindset


I'm guessing I should read the manual before starting?

agentorange
22-11-2011, 02:56 PM
Ok. Then I will approach it with the "losing is fun" DwarfFortress mindset


I'm guessing I should read the manual before starting?

All the TES games are on the simplistic side, mechanics wise; I never read it, or not most of it, and did fine. Probably better off just using the wiki: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Daggerfall

riadsala
22-11-2011, 03:11 PM
Well, I like exploring and discovering things myself. Reading solutions on a wiki (whether it's how to minmax a character build, what spells to use, etc) is defeating the point of playing the game. (Which is why I'm not going to win a game of Dom3 anytime soon!). But on the otherhand, I want to avoid creating a character so useless I can't do anything with him/her.

hamster
22-11-2011, 04:48 PM
Watched a Let's Play. Seemed pretty backwards in some ways.

EBass
22-11-2011, 05:15 PM
Daggerfall totally fails to excite me, don't get me wrong, I totally know why people like it but the idea of exploring a randomly generated world just seems totally flat. You're not really "exploring" just walking through randomly generated algorithms that fail to provide a sense of uniqueness or place. To be honest I've never much liked the dungeon crawling aspect of RPGs at all.

Wizardry
22-11-2011, 05:15 PM
Sounds like, well, a bad game. What's the point of offering lots of player choice if, at the end of the day, the game is unplayable unless you stick to a narrow path of options.
Think about it. If your character is shit at killing things then they are better at other things. Play to your advantages. Run away from enemies, slam doors shut in their faces, find alternate rooms and avoid unnecessary rooms. You can't expect to kill everyone at the start of the game with a fragile character. Just get out of the starting dungeon. That should be your first goal.

sabrage
22-11-2011, 05:20 PM
Is there any way to increase the draw distance in Daggerfall? I'll probably never even play it, but exploring 60,000+ square miles would be a lot more enticing if I could see more than four feet in front of my face.

Wizardry
22-11-2011, 05:25 PM
Is there any way to increase the draw distance in Daggerfall? I'll probably never even play it, but exploring 60,000+ square miles would be a lot more enticing if I could see more than four feet in front of my face.
People who go into the game expecting to be able to explore it all are doing it wrong. That's why many players who played it after Morrowind or Oblivion don't get it. It's an RPG and should be played as one. You should go to places you need to go to and explore places you need to explore.

sabrage
22-11-2011, 05:55 PM
My point being that I want to explore a world, not an empty horizon.

Whereas I think yours was some nonsense about genre definitions, which aren't really important to begin with.

Wizardry
22-11-2011, 05:59 PM
My point being that I want to explore a world, not an empty horizon.

Whereas I think yours was some nonsense about genre definitions, which aren't really important to begin with.
Even though I quoted you I wasn't really replying directly to you. I was aiming it at those who keep mentioning how Daggerfall is all randomly generated and thus boring compared to Morrowind.

TillEulenspiegel
22-11-2011, 06:12 PM
While you technically can wander around outside in Daggerfall, there's no reason to do so. There's nothing interesting out there. A higher draw distance in the cities would be nice, but it's not terrible as-is.

Fast travel to cities and points of interest helpfully marked on your map - there's no shortage of places to explore and stuff to do.

EDIT: While looking for examples of draw distance, I found this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2xa2r-0bTI

I'd forgotten how impressive the cities in Daggerfall were. They're huge, the buildings are beautifully designed, and the variations in layout keep it interesting.

riadsala
22-11-2011, 06:27 PM
When I said explore I meant, discovering and learning the game system. Rather than go everywhere and do everything

On a related note, is the first elder scrolls game worth trying out?

Wizardry
22-11-2011, 07:13 PM
On a related note, is the first elder scrolls game with trying out?
Not really.

sabrage
22-11-2011, 07:22 PM
This was the video that I watched. I only asked because the video is as old as the game itself; thought a mod might've improved the draw distance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_MY0ihuJZc&feature=player_embedded
Is the entire world as flat as these videos suggest? (dungeons aside) Because that would kill any interest I have in this game.

Vexing Vision
22-11-2011, 07:33 PM
The world is indeed as flat. The Dungeons - where you'll spend the majority of the time in, however, are the most threedimensional dungeons I have ever seen.

sinister agent
22-11-2011, 08:06 PM
To be honest I've never much liked the dungeon crawling aspect of RPGs at all.

Me neither, which is why every time I try to play Daggerfall again I enjoy making a character, wander round a town for a while, then as soon as I have to go to a cave or dungeon I get bored of spending hours tediously clomping round a ridiculously huge labyrinth endlessly recalculating weight/value ratios and wondering how long it will be before I just accept that a bug has rendered the errand I'm on impossible.

Dungeon crawling is grinding by another name, basically.

Wizardry
22-11-2011, 08:08 PM
Dungeon crawling is grinding by another name, basically.
Not really. Dungeon crawling is the origin of RPGs. It's fine if you don't like it, but calling it grinding is an insult.

outoffeelinsobad
22-11-2011, 08:12 PM
Agreed. Though i remember Morrowind's dungeons including many labyrinthian levels, Oblivion and Skyrim do little to hold up that tradition.

Giaddon
22-11-2011, 08:25 PM
Not really. Dungeon crawling is the origin of RPGs.

Origin of adventure games, too, interestingly enough.

Drinking with Skeletons
22-11-2011, 08:25 PM
People who go into the game expecting to be able to explore it all are doing it wrong. That's why many players who played it after Morrowind or Oblivion don't get it. It's an RPG and should be played as one. You should go to places you need to go to and explore places you need to explore.

How do you define "need" in this context? Do you mean following the narrative provided by the main quest or perhaps side quests? I've always believed that part of role-playing--even in your rigidly mechanical definition of the term--was to do things that make sense for your character to do. For example, a rogue who is good at backstabbing and lockpicking may still be adventurous, and it's not unreasonable for such a character to decide to go into a random dungeon and use his/her rogue skills to try to obtain fabulous and hidden treasures. There's no need for it, in that there is not a specific, outside force compelling the character to enter the dungeon, but it can work as both a character and mechanical approach to the game.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that it's not unreasonable for a player to desire some degree of freedom--including the freedom to fail, should an area, creature, or situation be impossible for their build. I know you're really big on defining RPG as a form of mechanics as opposed to experience--which I don't fully agree or disagree with, mind you--but it seems like you're advocating an essentially linear approach in which the role-playing begins and ends with how the character solves the problems he/she is presented using rigidly defined game mechanics, and dismissing the value in the character interacting with the world to open up new, dynamic opportunities to apply those rigidly defined game mechanics.

I would argue that if Daggerfall presents an open world, it's quality should be judged partly on how well it allows the player to explore that world, and not solely on how well it allows players to role-play through a specific path or paths within that world.

Apologies if I'm unclear or if I misunderstood your point.

sinister agent
22-11-2011, 08:28 PM
Not really. Dungeon crawling is the origin of RPGs. It's fine if you don't like it, but calling it grinding is an insult.

..and? It's accurate. Endlessly fighting the same things for marginal improvements in skills and equipment. It's fundamentally the same. Sure, dungeon crawling has an extra layer of work in the form of poring over stats after every fight to decide what loot to drop, but that doesn't change much.

Whether you consider it an insult is up to you - many people like grinding, and while I hate it, as long as they don't bother me with it, that's their business and I don't care.

Wizardry
22-11-2011, 08:31 PM
..and? It's accurate. Endlessly fighting the same things for marginal improvements in skills and equipment. It's fundamentally the same. Sure, dungeon crawling has an extra layer of work in the form of poring over stats after every fight to decide what loot to drop, but that doesn't change much.
What does any of that have to do with dungeon crawling?

TillEulenspiegel
22-11-2011, 08:32 PM
You're talking about shitty dungeons, as seen in the TES series, where they're just a place with some monsters.

Try a classic CRPG, or pick up just about any D&D adventure module. Dungeons in the Gygaxian tradition are supposed to be interesting.

Wizardry
22-11-2011, 08:37 PM
How do you define "need" in this context? Do you mean following the narrative provided by the main quest or perhaps side quests? I've always believed that part of role-playing--even in your rigidly mechanical definition of the term--was to do things that make sense for your character to do. For example, a rogue who is good at backstabbing and lockpicking may still be adventurous, and it's not unreasonable for such a character to decide to go into a random dungeon and use his/her rogue skills to try to obtain fabulous and hidden treasures. There's no need for it, in that there is not a specific, outside force compelling the character to enter the dungeon, but it can work as both a character and mechanical approach to the game.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that it's not unreasonable for a player to desire some degree of freedom--including the freedom to fail, should an area, creature, or situation be impossible for their build. I know you're really big on defining RPG as a form of mechanics as opposed to experience--which I don't fully agree or disagree with, mind you--but it seems like you're advocating an essentially linear approach in which the role-playing begins and ends with how the character solves the problems he/she is presented using rigidly defined game mechanics, and dismissing the value in the character interacting with the world to open up new, dynamic opportunities to apply those rigidly defined game mechanics.

I would argue that if Daggerfall presents an open world, it's quality should be judged partly on how well it allows the player to explore that world, and not solely on how well it allows players to role-play through a specific path or paths within that world.

Apologies if I'm unclear or if I misunderstood your point.
You did misunderstand my point. All I'm saying is that you can't go into it with the same mindset as you would go into the vast majority of other RPGs, especially modern ones, whereby your aim is to explore every inch of land and do every single quest possible. Daggerfall isn't like that. It's much more natural. It's useless to visit every single city, town, building and dungeon in the game. It's meaningless. You don't do that in real life after all. You go where you need to go to achieve your next goal, and the goal can be whatever you want it to be, regardless of if it's a quest or not. If you want to sleep at an inn then your goal is to head to the nearest inn. Stopping off to talk to every NPC (useless) and enter every building you can enter (useless) on your way there is not appropriate because of the procedural generation. You need to play it more realistically than the vast majority of other games out there.

riadsala
22-11-2011, 08:47 PM
You did misunderstand my point. All I'm saying is that you can't go into it with the same mindset as you would go into the vast majority of other RPGs, especially modern ones, whereby your aim is to explore every inch of land and do every single quest possible. Daggerfall isn't like that. It's much more natural. It's useless to visit every single city, town, building and dungeon in the game. It's meaningless. You don't do that in real life after all. You go where you need to go to achieve your next goal, and the goal can be whatever you want it to be, regardless of if it's a quest or not. If you want to sleep at an inn then your goal is to head to the nearest inn. Stopping off to talk to every NPC (useless) and enter every building you can enter (useless) on your way there is not appropriate because of the procedural generation. You need to play it more realistically than the vast majority of other games out there.

I like the sound of that. My main gripe with modern rpgs is they're almost designed in such a way that you're meant to do everything... which renders choice meaningless.

I don't get you Wizardry. Sometimes, you talk a lot of sense, (like the stuff above), and over times, you come across as your typical internet troll. Anyway, do you have any advice for starting Daggerfall? I want to come at it as freshly as possible. I'm happy to read a manual for mechanics, but I like figuring out my own builds and tactics :)

Wizardry
22-11-2011, 09:04 PM
I don't get you Wizardry. Sometimes, you talk a lot of sense, (like the stuff above), and over times, you come across as your typical internet troll. Anyway, do you have any advice for starting Daggerfall? I want to come at it as freshly as possible. I'm happy to read a manual for mechanics, but I like figuring out my own builds and tactics :)
Magic. That's my advice.

QuantaCat
22-11-2011, 09:31 PM
I was almost sure you meant magic was the answer to being a troll or an actual clever person :D

Also, strangely, hearing of Daggerfall, somehow reminded me of the feeling I had when playing Dragon Age : Origins. I know its nothing like that, but the different beginnings of the different classes/races made it feel much more organic and real, rather than explorathieving. Which of course subsides again after leaving the first chapters.

Lightbulb
22-11-2011, 10:36 PM
Not really. Dungeon crawling is the origin of RPGs. It's fine if you don't like it, but calling it grinding is an insult.

To 'grind' - to do something over and over. Typically before doing something fun.
Examples: Crap jobs, crap games.

Crap being, as most things, subjective.

-------

Also I don't see how its an insult at all; indeed I would say its impossible to insult an object (the game). It could perhaps be an insult to someone who does like the game but that again seems rather odd since disliking something does not (once one advances beyond such an idea) automatically imply that another liking it must be a "smacktard".

-------

Now I could see an argument that since the grinding doesn't lead to a 'fun thing' this is not in fact grinding after all but since grinding inevitably leads to more grinding (or the end of the game) I believe the analogy stands up. Dungeon crawling leads to more dungeon crawling (or the end of the game).

-------

Finally: single cell organisms are the origin of our species. Doesn't mean I want to have a conversation with one.

Heliocentric
23-11-2011, 12:08 AM
I don't get you Wizardry. Sometimes, you talk a lot of sense, (like the stuff above), and over times, you come across as your typical internet troll. Anyway, do you have any advice for starting Daggerfall? I want to come at it as freshly as possible. I'm happy to read a manual for mechanics, but I like figuring out my own builds and tactics :)

He's an out of the closet extremist, trolls don't believe what they say, or at least say it for the wrong reasons, Wizardry legitimately believes he's pushing towards our collective gaming enlightenment.



I like the sound of that. My main gripe with modern rpgs is they're almost designed in such a way that you're meant to do everything... which renders choice meaningless. I'l assume you are excepting the Witcher from that, but really its the game "letting" you do everything, in Morrowind you needed to really work at it to see most of the content in one run, that's probably why the world seems more complete. Another game that doesn't want you to see it all in one go in Pathologic but I always bounced off that game hard, never stopped waiting for that language patch.

Drinking with Skeletons
23-11-2011, 12:19 AM
You did misunderstand my point. All I'm saying is that you can't go into it with the same mindset as you would go into the vast majority of other RPGs, especially modern ones, whereby your aim is to explore every inch of land and do every single quest possible. Daggerfall isn't like that. It's much more natural. It's useless to visit every single city, town, building and dungeon in the game. It's meaningless. You don't do that in real life after all. You go where you need to go to achieve your next goal, and the goal can be whatever you want it to be, regardless of if it's a quest or not. If you want to sleep at an inn then your goal is to head to the nearest inn. Stopping off to talk to every NPC (useless) and enter every building you can enter (useless) on your way there is not appropriate because of the procedural generation. You need to play it more realistically than the vast majority of other games out there.

Thanks for the clarification, and based on how you put it here, I'd agree with you that approaching Daggerfall in the same way as Skyrim sounds like a bad (and probably boring and frustrating) idea.

However, can I say that I question the value of using procedural generation to the point that exploring the world for its own sake becomes meaningless? It doesn't seem completely fair to write off a player's dissatisfaction with the title as just approaching it in the wrong way; couldn't the same mechanics have worked just as well in a finely detailed overworld with the same randomized dungeon system? Sure, you might not have as many randomized dungeons, but you could still have had a lot. Even with Skyrim, which is definitely not the 60,000 square miles or whatever of Daggerfall, you've got dozens of dungeons. Had they all been massive, randomized labyrinths, they certainly could have provided far more content than the average player (and I don't mean casual players, either) could ever want.

And again, I don't mean that you're wrong. I think your advice is good for people who are interested and might be open to that kind of experience, and I think your justification for why the randomness works for you is well-reasoned. I just think it's fair for a person to dislike the game for its randomness, even if that is a considerable part of why you like it.

Keep
23-11-2011, 01:20 AM
However, can I say that I question the value of using procedural generation to the point that exploring the world for its own sake becomes meaningless?

Isn't...the real world procedurally generated by random forces?

...Hiking is meaningless?

Berzee
23-11-2011, 02:21 AM
Isn't...the real world procedurally generated by random forces?

No sir!

But then, neither are computer games really. At least -- the procedural generation they use isn't procedurally generated, as though it were turtles all the way down.

agentorange
23-11-2011, 02:44 AM
Isn't...the real world procedurally generated by random forces?

...Hiking is meaningless?

Well, the world has infinite possibilities to draw from. Procedural generation in Daggerfall has like 10 assets it can reuse over and over again.

BillButNotBen
23-11-2011, 08:28 AM
Wizardry is completely right this time on daggerfall - but, as he says, it doesn't mean you're stuck on a linear path.

I played Daggerfall for years and never actually followed the quests much at all. I did however set up my own business and a nice trade route, and rob everyone blind, and run from the cops from rooftop to rooftop. And the dungeons were at the same time infuriating and incredible to explore.

But there's no point talking to everyone or trying to do "everything". Just decide what you want to do and do it.

Oh, and take the ebony dagger. Oh, and run away a lot.

Harlander
23-11-2011, 11:20 AM
No sir!


Isn't...the real world procedurally generated by random forces?

But then, neither are computer games really. At least -- the procedural generation they use isn't procedurally generated, as though it were turtles all the way down.

The procedural generation in games is procedurally generated by the rules governing the universe. It's the most inefficient way of creating procedural generation code for games you can imagine, with a lot of strange side-effects.

archonsod
23-11-2011, 12:34 PM
I like the sound of that. My main gripe with modern rpgs is they're almost designed in such a way that you're meant to do everything... which renders choice meaningless.

Daggerfall renders everything meaningless outside the main story. There's no choice in the first place - while you can opt to join the Mages Guild or any of the temples of the Divines, the only quests they give are randomly generated and all draw from the same random pool (essentially there's three different pools - mage, thief and fighter - and the guilds are designated into one category or another and simply generate quests from that). The same applies to towns - there's a lot of them, but there's no actual story or similar going on, just a collection of stores and some NPCs who can hand out random quests - again drawing from a common pool.

riadsala
23-11-2011, 12:37 PM
Daggerfall renders everything meaningless outside the main story. There's no choice in the first place - while you can opt to join the Mages Guild or any of the temples of the Divines, the only quests they give are randomly generated and all draw from the same random pool (essentially there's three different pools - mage, thief and fighter - and the guilds are designated into one category or another and simply generate quests from that). The same applies to towns - there's a lot of them, but there's no actual story or similar going on, just a collection of stores and some NPCs who can hand out random quests - again drawing from a common pool.

Sounds like ideally I'd want something half way between both styles of game then. Anyway, I'll give it a shot. I like a challenge. And I think my Baldur's Gate Tutu install has gone wonky, so I'll wait for a sale on gog.com. buy a new copy of the game, and start over sometime. And in the meantime, I can try Daggerfall out. Maybe I'll learn something.

Wizardry
23-11-2011, 05:37 PM
There are lots of quests in the game: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Quests

Also, the main quest in Daggerfall is rather non-linear in comparison to other games in the series:
Daggerfall: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Main_Quest_Walkthrough#Quest_Map
Morrowind: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Main_Quest#Quest_Flow_Chart
Oblivion: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Main_Quest
Skyrim: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Main_Quest

Drinking with Skeletons
23-11-2011, 05:53 PM
Isn't...the real world procedurally generated by random forces?

...Hiking is meaningless?

While the world is formed by random forces, they are infinitely more complex than anything a video game--let alone a very old video game--can produce.

To bring in an unrelated analogy, I guess I would prefer a finite amount of carefully prepared steak over infinite hot dogs. But I actually like a well-prepared hot dog more than beef in general, so...hold on, I'll get back to you after lunch.

Berzee
23-11-2011, 06:10 PM
Wizardry, you just sent me on like half an hour of reading Morrowind main quest spoilers. >_<

Drinking with Skeletons, what about a steak that's formed by infinitely complex random forces?

QuantaCat
23-11-2011, 09:03 PM
The world is formed by YOU.

sabrage
23-11-2011, 11:51 PM
There are lots of quests in the game: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Quests

Also, the main quest in Daggerfall is rather non-linear in comparison to other games in the series:
Daggerfall: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Main_Quest_Walkthrough#Quest_Map
Morrowind: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Main_Quest#Quest_Flow_Chart
Oblivion: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Main_Quest
Skyrim: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Main_Quest

I had no idea TES wiki was so... Thorough. Thanks for those pages.

Squiz
24-11-2011, 12:01 AM
The world is formed by YOU.In Soviet Russia, game roleplays you.

Wizardry
24-11-2011, 12:08 AM
In 2011, game roleplays you.
Fixed.
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