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R-F
25-11-2011, 08:00 AM
Anyone in the beta? Fancy a practice match or two?

pakoito
25-11-2011, 12:49 PM
I need a key :(

Stevo
25-11-2011, 01:06 PM
Im in and you suck! Yeah you heard me YOU suck!!!! How does that feel? If you feel hurt then good we are one step closer to building up your resistances to being offended in dota games.

Horrible attempts at humour aside im enjoying the Beta so far though the game is a bit imbalanced at the moment with Anti Mage being horribly over powered.

I know it's a Beta and all but some things that are missing are just inexcusable, a simple character list with the abilities breakdown for each char would take a week of work to do but it won't see the light of day for another few months.

Here is a list of heros with their ability breakdown http://www.dota2portal.org/?pid=2

Jockie
25-11-2011, 01:40 PM
I've played a few hours so far and deary me, anyone expecting Valve to bring Dota-like games to the masses is in for a bit of a rude awakening. It feels like a straight up DOTA-source port with better front-end functionality. It's still extremely slow paced and every lesson Riot learned about making things clear, precise, user friendly and intuitive has been ignored in favour of being obscure, muddled, confusing and arcane (or complex and deep, as it's fans say). In terms of where it stands in the LoL vs HoN vs Dota 2 debate - This game will probably outright kill HoN, because it's essentially the same game with better backing. But LoL will remain dota-like of choice for people new to the genre, or who find the plodding pace, long cooldowns etc of Dota a bit too much.

I played three games of Dota 2 last night with a friend and we were in shock that Valve had made a game this little fun to play.

Stevo
25-11-2011, 01:46 PM
I've played a few hours so far and deary me, anyone expecting Valve to bring Dota-like games to the masses is in for a bit of a rude awakening. It feels like a straight up DOTA-source port with better front-end functionality. It's still extremely slow paced and every lesson Riot learned about making things clear, precise, user friendly and intuitive has been ignored in favour of being obscure, muddled, confusing and arcane (or complex and deep, as it's fans say). In terms of where it stands in the LoL vs HoN vs Dota 2 debate - This game will probably outright kill HoN, because it's essentially the same game with better backing. But LoL will remain dota-like of choice for people new to the genre, or who find the plodding pace, long cooldowns etc of Dota a bit too much.

I played three games of Dota 2 last night with a friend and we were in shock that Valve had made a game this little fun to play.


Don't say things like this you nub why you speak about Dota when you know play Dota long time pro?? Fukn nub face go play Looooooolll with every1 blink n less complx heros.

Yeah it is actually horrible how bad the community can be. If this game doesn't go F2P it will be a immense failure. If you know nothing about the original Dota or Hon then your fucked in being able to pick up what your supposed to do. Not to mention that on average games take 50 FUCKING MINUTES to finish up even in one sided matches.

R-F
25-11-2011, 02:49 PM
I've played a few hours so far and deary me, anyone expecting Valve to bring Dota-like games to the masses is in for a bit of a rude awakening. It feels like a straight up DOTA-source port with better front-end functionality. It's still extremely slow paced and every lesson Riot learned about making things clear, precise, user friendly and intuitive has been ignored in favour of being obscure, muddled, confusing and arcane (or complex and deep, as it's fans say). In terms of where it stands in the LoL vs HoN vs Dota 2 debate - This game will probably outright kill HoN, because it's essentially the same game with better backing. But LoL will remain dota-like of choice for people new to the genre, or who find the plodding pace, long cooldowns etc of Dota a bit too much.

I played three games of Dota 2 last night with a friend and we were in shock that Valve had made a game this little fun to play.

I was a bit worried about this, to be honest. Icefrog seems way too in love with the original DotA to actually improve the game.

The simple fact they've kept the factions seperate (instead of, y'know, doing the sensible thing and giving the same champions to BOTH sides) is really, really worrisome.

Oh, well, it's probably going to be more SWTOR beta than playing DotA2 tonight, anyway.

Jockie
25-11-2011, 02:55 PM
I was a bit worried about this, to be honest. Icefrog seems way too in love with the original DotA to actually improve the game.

The simple fact they've kept the factions seperate (instead of, y'know, doing the sensible thing and giving the same champions to BOTH sides) is really, really worrisome.

Oh, well, it's probably going to be more SWTOR beta than playing DotA2 tonight, anyway.

You were free to pick Heroes from either faction regardless of which side you were on from the games I played last night.

Noirdeathe
25-11-2011, 09:56 PM
Finally got around to making an account for this.

I used to play DoTA fairly regularly and have since moved on to LoL (since alpha I think), so I believe I have a fair grounding in the MOBA scene.

DoTA2 is in all aspects DoTA with newer graphics (whilst HoN was DoTA with newer graphics and the same heroes reskinned). And for the life of me I cannot understand why they didn't take a page out of Riots book and make the game actually player friendly, it's really mind-boggling.

The shop is an absolute mess with items in unspecified pages and tabs, upgrading an item doesn't take in into consideration what you have already bought (it just has a flat gold rate, I found myself able to buy the items despite not having the gold it told me I'd need) and by far and away the worst thing is the lack of visible spell effects in combat. Last night I was gibbed repeatedly by a hero that didn't even seem to have a visible spell effect (I'm looking at you, Lich) and to make things worse it was two of us .. and we were both at full health!

The UI is ugly also.

I understand the game is still in beta and everything is subject to change .. but I don't see it making as large a splash as Valve would likely hope, it'll definitely kill off HoN though.

P.S: No concede button, this means 50 minutes of getting your ass kicked when the game is horribly one-sided.

pakoito
25-11-2011, 10:02 PM
New forum account to bash Dota and HoN. LoL has damaged internet more than WoW and MW together.

Noirdeathe
25-11-2011, 10:10 PM
I've played DoTA, HoN, Bloodlines, Immortals, blahblah. I've given almost every MOBA game a shot out there a go and have come to my own -personal- opinions. I don't like DoTA and HoN because they're too "hardcore" and too unforgiving for new players, you really need to learn everything about the game before you can play as a viable player (map layout and tactics, hero skills, items, item costs) .. and the community is utter garbage (only community I've met that is worse was the CounterStrike lot).

I like LoL, it's accessible and I can introduce people to it without warning them about the players.

sabrage
25-11-2011, 10:12 PM
I like LoL, it's accessible and I can introduce people to it without warning them about the players.

Really? It's not as bad as those others, sure, but LoL has the double edged sword of a troll community that thinks they're the greatest even when they're doing terrible.

Noirdeathe
25-11-2011, 10:13 PM
Really? It's not as bad as those others, sure, but LoL has the double edged sword of a troll community that thinks they're the greatest even when they're doing terrible.

Compared to most of the games I've had in DoTA whilst most of the team was screaming and rolling their faces along the keyboard, I'll take the occasional troll that crops up.

sabrage
25-11-2011, 10:14 PM
Do you play on the Euro servers? Because that happens to me all the time.

Noirdeathe
25-11-2011, 10:15 PM
Nah, I made the account on the Americas well before the Euro servers were actually decent. GOA Online used to control them so I pretty much stayed well, well away.

sabrage
25-11-2011, 10:18 PM
Then I must just have terrible luck, because my experience with the community was almost unanimously awful.

Utnac
25-11-2011, 10:22 PM
I've been in it for a while, firstly using a friends account and then I got an invite myself last week. I've played around 100 games.

Positives:

It's quintessential DOTA, it's a straight port in many aspects. I was terrified they'd turn it into a LoL-esque monster but it's not, all the important bits are in there, denies, gold loss on death, a reliance on carries e.t.c. that set it apart from LoL.

It looks absolutely stunning, uses lovely pastel colours which dont really come through in a stream, but look gorgeous when you actually play it.

Weekly patches, they are patching it constantly, adding heroes and squashing loads of bugs each time, I've occasionally seen people call Icefrog lazy, which is really just a stupid thing to say, he works damn hard.

Negatives (this is coming from a long time DOTA/HoN player)

Minimap: Too hard to see which areas have vision and which dont.

Shop: Maybe it is reminiscent of the old DOTA shop, I have not played DOTA in a long while and I think I used a modded one? But it's very, VERY awkward, hot keys dont seem to be fully implemented and a lot more clicking is required than should be necessary, mostly items are laid out ok (flying courier is one notable exception), I dont know where that idea has come from, it's just too hard to navigate.

Engine: There is a deliberate delay of about 100ms on EVERYTHING, you do get used to it, but it feels slow and cumbersome, I'm unsure if it's to try and level the playing field when people have vastly different pings or if they just wanted to slow down the pace (more likely) but I do think it feels slow, especially after playing HoN.

Hero Pool: Right now too small, missing some key heroes that would help to counteract some of the major balance issues that there are rightnow, AM has bugger all counters and has a stupidly high win %. This should obviously change.

Stats e.t.c. : All they record right now is wins/losses/abandons. No other stat tracking, Jury is most certainly out on this one, some love it and some hate it. Personally I'm a lover but I would expect it to change.

Matchmaking: Occasionally very bad, generally alright, I'd assume this is not close to being finished.

Overall: For REAL Dota players, most will love it, some will probably prefer the faster pace of HoN, but I prefer the additional tactics the slow game play requires (i.e. postioning is MUCH more important during the laning phase). Basic gameplay is pretty much there. What needs work is the surrounding infrastructure for the first timers to proper DOTA, as I would expect a lot of them, and they wont understand the heroes, the skills, the builds the items e.t.c..

Noirdeathe
25-11-2011, 10:34 PM
If anyone fancies a game of DoTA2 this evening, feel free to hit me up!

(was supposed to put this in earlier, but forgot).

R-F
26-11-2011, 08:03 AM
I can't seem to connect to the servers. :| Not even a private match.

redspielened
01-12-2011, 12:39 AM
Well, it seems that I have 2 DotA2 copies to give as a gift in my steam inventory. First two people that want them can have them!

pakoito
01-12-2011, 01:05 AM
Well, it seems that I have 2 DotA2 copies to give as a gift in my steam inventory. First two people that want them can have them!
Can I has one for friend? My account doesn't have any yet. Account: Malcolmlisk

Spider Jerusalem
01-12-2011, 01:33 AM
Well, it seems that I have 2 DotA2 copies to give as a gift in my steam inventory. First two people that want them can have them!
do want, sir.

eta: account is: asheme

redspielened
01-12-2011, 01:39 AM
Oki, I've added you as friends, I will be able to send them once you've confirmed friend status (I think).

sabrage
01-12-2011, 01:41 AM
Edit: Nope, missed the "2" in the original post.

pakoito
01-12-2011, 01:42 AM
Oki, I've added you as friends, I will be able to send them once you've confirmed friend status (I think).I'll tell my friend, I can assure you he will accept tomorrow morning.

Spider Jerusalem
01-12-2011, 02:44 AM
Oki, I've added you as friends, I will be able to send them once you've confirmed friend status (I think).
accepted.

thanks, good sir.

CrazyEthan
01-12-2011, 02:55 AM
Nah, but I guess it will be a hit.

Ravelle
01-12-2011, 11:15 AM
I can wait til the full release, I like the idea of the game but my experience gets stomped when I get brutally destroyed by veterans and the swearing you get when you're not as good as them. ;(

Smashbox
01-12-2011, 03:54 PM
Am I alone in thinking "Why, Valve?"

Why devote time and resources to this type of thing, something clearly outside your wheelhouse, something in which you don't get to apply (arguably) your greatest strengths as a studio (narrative design, Mise-en-scène)?

I know that this could be interpreted as a sort of entitled attitude (But I want Haaaalf Liiiife!), but I don't intend it to be. Why is one of the greatest game developers (in my opinion) remaking a game almost exactly, flaws and all?

Sorry (for all the parentheticals).

pakoito
01-12-2011, 04:00 PM
Valve took modsceners and made them make their own games. Take CS or TF. Why not DOTA, the second biggest RTS e-sport after SC? you don't like it? is it a niche game? well it has millions of people playing every day, even more than said "mainstream big games" everyone knows.

Smashbox
01-12-2011, 04:37 PM
I don't mean to discount DOTA or the genre's viability. It's clear that people want to play ... "MOBAs"

Valve's policy for seemingly everything (except Half-Life) has been: find gem in the mod/amateur scene and polish the hell out of it. It sounds as though they're neglecting the latter on Dota 2.

Of course some will argue that DOTA is polished iteratively. It just seems odd to me, and a missed chance for Valve to apply their well-honed formula for success.

redspielened
01-12-2011, 04:37 PM
Because DotA is a masterpiece in its own right, not of the kind where you have a grand narrative or anything of that sort, which would make you think of the literary ones, but a masterpiece nonetheless as far as strategy multiplayer games are concerned.

Smashbox
01-12-2011, 04:46 PM
I'm not suggesting that a grand story would add to the game. It's well-recognized as a great game, certainly, and an amazing achievement for a mod, but is it perfect? (The answer to this question is always no)

My point is that Valve's true talent is to refine, refine, refine. Based on earlier comments, it sounds as though they are not refining.

Sorry if I'm going too far offtopic.

pakoito
01-12-2011, 04:58 PM
If you try to refine DOTA (distill, water-down, casualize, dumb-down etc...) you end up with LoL, and even though it has been a grand public success approaching MOBA to the masses, as a e-sport is just far too imperfect. Compare CS and TF2 again.

Besides, Icefrog is far too much in love with his game to change it.

Smashbox
01-12-2011, 05:08 PM
If you try to refine DOTA (distill, water-down, casualize, dumb-down etc...) you end up with LoL.

That's assuming there aren't better solutions. Valve, along with a huge number of people, seems to have bought into the idea that you can't improve DOTA. I find that very hard to believe.



Besides, Icefrog is far too much in love with his game to change it.

This is closer to the crux of the issue, I'd imagine.

pakoito
01-12-2011, 05:16 PM
What sells DOTA is mostly Icefrog and the game itself. The minor change enrages the community and blindly cancels it as stupid or imbalanced. Look at HoN where the smart good design decisions (some bad ones too) are called off for not being what Icefrog would do. Name it remove secret shop, ward stack changes, two buybacks, Radiant ramp to Kroshan, starting curier...

Even with Valve's name behind we have seen several cases where the community has decided to stay in their old game rather to jump into the supposedly improved version. See CS 1.6 vs Source again. They're playing it safe this time, even down to the stupid 100ms client delay WC3 had.

Smashbox
01-12-2011, 05:20 PM
What sells DOTA is mostly Icefrog and the game itself. The minor change enrages the community and blindly cancels it as stupid or imbalanced (look at HoN where the smart good design decisions are called off for not being what Icefrog does).

Thus my original question: "Why, Valve?" (Monetization of a popular free product.)

lasikbear
01-12-2011, 05:21 PM
I really don't want to get into the DOTA vs LoL thing, but as far as ideas like 'you can't improve DOTA' go I feel like there are so many basic things about DOTA that could be fixed or improved.

Just doing something like putting characters icons on the map would be huge. I know its not that hard to check at the top of the screen, but being able to immediately glance at the map and know what enemy just showed up where would be great.

The store is also still a mess, and while organization is probably up to personal preference, its still not very intuitive to use.

So far I am really disappointed with the beta, its a really solid remake of DOTA in a new engine, but so far it feels like that is it. If all Valve end up doing is a nearly identical remake in a shinier engine I don't see the point, someone could have just done that in the SC2 engine and it would have accomplished the same thing.

pakoito
01-12-2011, 05:24 PM
Thus my original question: "Why, Valve?" (Monetization of a popular free product.)Because, same as Starcraft, the game engine was becoming too old and imprecise. There were no added features such as matchmaking, the netcode was HORRIBLE, there were no (official) bots or stat tracking, matches couldn't be spectated and leavers were unpunished. Plus heavy hero creation restrictions.

When they finish porting all the old stuff we will start seeing new imaginative "Icefrog" heroes, and that's where S2 does not always go (new hero rage because they're too good or bad, when they're always sub-par compared to DOTA but ragers don't see that), and Riot never will (Guinsoo's cookie cutter 2xnuke/approach/pasive heroes, just lol).


I don't see the point, someone could have just done that in the SC2 engine and it would have accomplished the same thing.Custom maps in SC2 doesn't have what I mentioned some lines ago. It's making the engine to fit the game, taking it out of the mod into standalone. Point is port&monetize. You can play the 7yo engine 30$ version (TFT is not free!) or the new F2P one.

lasikbear
01-12-2011, 05:46 PM
The whole matchmaking/leaderboards/netcode thing is a really important point I overlooked. I guess mostly I was just looking forward to more interface/usability changes to come with it.

Sidenote: I don't believe Guinsoo does any design for LoL anymore and hasn't for a while. I think a lot of the newer Riot designers have been making a lot of good steps and more interesting designs, but the overall design goals are probably not what you want as a hardcore DOTA fan.

redspielened
01-12-2011, 07:58 PM
LoL has too low a skill cap for individuals, which might be ok if all you'd do was organised 5v5, but since a lot of people spend a lot of time in solo queue... well, you get to a point where there's too little you can do to improve and it makes too little difference while who you get paired up with has much more of an impact. There's too little room for meaningful skilled play. That's why DotA shines, it has a higher skill cap, moving nearer to BLC, but also has all the kill creeps, get items, etc feel of normal strategy-rpg maps, just like LoL has. It's not as limited as LoL is in that regard, and it's why I prefer it.

That being said, DotA2 has some bad issues with casting/attack range atm, as well as hitboxes, and it could do with minor improvements like minimap to allied/enemy colours (or portraits), smartcasting, etc. but it's not that big of a deal.

ASX
01-12-2011, 11:36 PM
Before I get flamed out of here, I'd like to ask you - yes, you - a simple question:

Who is Icefrog?

I'm seeing a lot of claims here that Icefrog is too in love with his own design, or that Icefrog is invoked as the ultimate defense for any change that happens/doesn't happen in any game of the genre. But what do we currently know about Icefrog?

Incontrovertible Facts about Icefrog
1. Icefrog is the current lead developer for DotA (whatever that means, usually coder/bug tester/what have you on www.playdota.com), and possibly the executive decision maker for Dota 2.
2. Icefrog works for Valve.

Everything else is mostly speculation about the guy based on hearsay from what you've heard about him - if you're a DotA fan, you probably love the guy. If you submitted an idea that was used but wasn't properly credited, and it appears he tries to credit as many people as possible in changelogs these days, you're probably a bit disgruntled. Same goes for people that disagree because of version changes/balancing, but you're still playing. For those that know about Icefrog through the random blog once updated with slanderous allegations (never proven), or have heard about Icefrog through disgruntled players now in LoL/HoN, he's probably the lowest person on your list ever. Same for those accusing Icefrog of stealing Valve's attention away from HL3 :D If you don't care about the genre, why are you even reading this?

Incontrovertible Facts about Dota Fans
1. They're mostly aggressive, stupid, and prone to trolling for no reason.
2. They mostly claim Icefrog is a living god-emperor and can do no wrong, when they have no idea if there's life in the body on the golden-err, icy throne.

Most of these players couldn't care less about what happens, as long as they get their daily fix and like it - which Icefrog has been doing for a long time, long enough that they may not want their fix any other way.

Which leads me to the question - what do you know about Icefrog? Why are you estatic/happy/sad/disappointed/furious with Dota 2? What happened such that this guy, whom millions of people adore as a living saint, suddenly seems to have pissed in your morning coffee?

Nothing has changed and/or been Valve polished from DotA to Dota 2.
Software is generally an iterative process, and they're focusing on doing the port first before implementing anything new. If you introduce something new then need to scrap all of the code because of something else already on the table to be implemented, it's generally not a smart use of time.

It doesn't seem like Icefrog/Valve is listening to any suggestions about Dota 2.
Icefrog and Valve like to lurk a lot. People that get replies from Icefrog are treated as being blessed from above for their fifteen minutes of fame.

Dota 2 Beta is sooooooo good ggnore/Dota 2 Beta so bad, those baddies
That's so far removed from the truth that it's not even funny. This is an incredibly early public beta that they'd generally be showing to friends/family/inside testing groups first. You're experiencing how Valve tests and polishes the shit out of their games first hand, along with public announcements from Valve on how their testing and polishing is turning out. You wonder why the game doesn't feel as polished as other Valve games - uh, duh? Valve has never claimed the beta was a "beta," that term we now use for timelocked demos. They've lots of work to do and it has never been claimed otherwise.

So, Who is Icefrog?
The most recent monster stopping Valve from working on HL3? The spotless god-emperor on his icy throne, shining a path for other games to follow? Or a projection for your beliefs, whatever they may be? Don't shine your like/hate beam on some...thing you have no clue about, that's all I'm saying.

Is Icefrog even male?

---

You can now return to your regularly scheduled love/hate fest regarding Dota 2 Beta.

pakoito
02-12-2011, 12:15 AM
Icefrog is an guy from Iran living in america (probably Iran, maybe near, can't remember now) that's concerned about his privacy (no wonder) and his name was something like Abdul Ismail. Took the mod from Guinsoo, has had most "genious design ideas" for the game and that is why he's trusted and praised. He's the Banksy of videogame design. Hired by S2 to make Dota standalone (HoN beta), left because of design differences or maybe because Valve re-hired him and bowed to his will. That's what is known of Icefrog.

Battlehenkie
08-12-2011, 05:39 PM
Happen to have a spare DotA2 key left, any takers? Just PM me if interested with your Steam name. Protip: don't register just to ask for a key as I won't be giving it to any post with a postcount of 1.

EDIT: Key is spoken for.

lhzr
06-04-2012, 02:48 PM
http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=740576

There's a bunch of dota 2 keys in there. They seem to be country restricted (I got a "not available in your country" message) and I don't know for what countries they work, so you'll have to try and see.