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Jockie
29-11-2011, 10:35 PM
www.vg247.com/2011/11/29/cd-projekt-estimates-the-witcher-2-has-been-pirated-over-4-5-million-times

I think that's a pretty awful stat, even if the CD Projeckt guy remains remarkably upbeat about it. Are these 4.5 million people who would never have bought the game if it wasn't so easily available to steal? I sincerely doubt it.

TillEulenspiegel
29-11-2011, 10:42 PM
The game is 14GB, so letís assume that on an average not-too-fast connection it will be six hours of download.
Whoa. The whole thing falls apart there. That's not how things work on a public torrent with a "not-too-fast" connection. Six hours is wildly optimistic for 14GB.

Well, actually it falls apart before that with the highly dubious logic of using the number of current leechers to calculate total downloads.

Nalano
29-11-2011, 10:50 PM
That article basically reads like, "we don't count chickens before they're hatched."

And while I believe that to be a sound business policy, even if it wasn't, I applaud their pro-gamer general attitude and I'm glad I paid full price for Witcher and Witcher 2.

Teddy Leach
29-11-2011, 10:50 PM
I'd be lucky to get 14GB downloaded in under two solid days.

kyrieee
29-11-2011, 10:57 PM
It's a bullshit number, but the game still sold too little. I hope it gets the recognition it deserves when the console version comes out. The dialogue is so fucking good.

imirk
29-11-2011, 11:04 PM
I like that people are ugly and have scars

Skalpadda
29-11-2011, 11:05 PM
Whoa. The whole thing falls apart there. That's not how things work on a public torrent with a "not-too-fast" connection. Six hours is wildly optimistic for 14GB.


Is it? I agree that it's an extremely rough estimate, but unless I just failed at Windows Calculator 14GB in 6 hours would need an average of ~650kB/s which is really no speed at all these days.

Drake Sigar
29-11-2011, 11:09 PM
I know people who bought it twice. Just because.

Nalano
29-11-2011, 11:12 PM
I like that people are ugly and have scars

I do too. It's such a refreshing reprieve from Hollywood Homelies (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HollywoodHomely).

SirKicksalot
29-11-2011, 11:14 PM
I should have been one of them instead of wasting my money on the CE and hating the game.

DigitalSignalX
29-11-2011, 11:22 PM
Whoa. The whole thing falls apart there. That's not how things work on a public torrent with a "not-too-fast" connection. Six hours is wildly optimistic for 14GB.

Well, actually it falls apart before that with the highly dubious logic of using the number of current leechers to calculate total downloads.


I'd be lucky to get 14GB downloaded in under two solid days.

Agree to both, public torrents are almost always never that fast in my experience. My DSL can top out at 3 MB/s from a dedicated download site, but I rarely ever get a sustained average of more then 250 Kb's from public torrents. Perhaps I'm at the low end of the spectrum, but I doubt it.

While I can appreciate CD Projeckt's optimism, and especially their conduct in the face of the results of their formula, I can't help but think the numbers are flawed. Which is crucial if other developers see this and take a contrary view.

Nalano
29-11-2011, 11:24 PM
While I can appreciate CD Projeckt's optimism, and especially their conduct in the face of the results of their formula, I can't help but think the numbers are flawed. Which is crucial if other developers see this and take a contrary view.

But if the numbers are flawed in the direction that you're implying, then while they think they're lowballing the number, they're actually highballing it, and their policy is even more robust than originally surmised.

Mistabashi
29-11-2011, 11:26 PM
I should have been one of them instead of wasting my money on the CE and hating the game.

So because you happened to not like the game you should have pirated it instead? What other medium of entertainment grants you the god-given right to enjoy said entertainment?

Jockie
29-11-2011, 11:28 PM
Agree to both, public torrents are almost always never that fast in my experience. My DSL can top out at 3 MB/s from a dedicated download site, but I rarely ever get a sustained average of more then 250 Kb's from public torrents. Perhaps I'm at the low end of the spectrum, but I doubt it.

While I can appreciate CD Projeckt's optimism, and especially their conduct in the face of the results of their formula, I can't help but think the numbers are flawed. Which is crucial if other developers see this and take a contrary view.

Thing is, there are umpteen filehosting services that have piracy forums dedicated to sharing illict wares(z) on them that offer the same speed as direct downloads. I don't pirate as a rule, but I know plenty of people that do (and find my preaching on the subject wholly tiresome). Rapidshare, fileserve, megaupload, filesonic etc are legitimate hosting services, but I'd guess that 90% of their traffic is for Piracy. Torrents are kinda old school.

Nalano
29-11-2011, 11:32 PM
So because you happened to not like the game you should have pirated it instead? What other medium of entertainment grants you the god-given right to enjoy said entertainment?

If I don't like a movie, not paying for that movie won't make me like that movie.

People are weird.

kyrieee
29-11-2011, 11:32 PM
I don't know that torrents are old school, but public trackers are.

SirKicksalot
29-11-2011, 11:33 PM
If I don't like a movie, not paying for that movie won't make me like that movie.

People are weird.

...I should have tried it before buying it. I bought the CE based on how awesome the first game was, turns out I hated the sequel.

Althea
29-11-2011, 11:35 PM
I think I'm going to write off my Witcher purchases as "supporting a good cause". I really don't think CDPR are really all that good developers, but I'm willing to support them and CDP/GOG simply for doing what they do.

P.S. Piracy is for dicks.

Mistabashi
29-11-2011, 11:40 PM
...I should have tried it before buying it. I bought the CE based on how awesome the first game was, turns out I hated the sequel.

Isn't that just the same as enjoying a movie then paying to see the sequel and finding out you don't like it?

What I'm saying is you don't have any right to enjoy something, and you shouldn't feel entitled to take that thing without paying because you aren't sure that you'll like it until you've experienced it.

Althea
29-11-2011, 11:43 PM
Isn't that just the same as enjoying a movie then paying to see the sequel and finding out you don't like it?

What I'm saying is you don't have any right to enjoy something, and you shouldn't feel entitled to take that thing without paying because you aren't sure that you'll like it until you've experienced it.
I agree with your second line, but with the first one, the sequel isn't a $100/£70+ hole in your pocket.

Keep
30-11-2011, 12:19 AM
4.5 million people

Wow. That's a LOT to have heard of your franchise! So they won't buy a videogame, pfft, sell 'em Witcher Stickers at $1 each. You'll make a killing!

In other words, don't cry over what could have been. Get to work on making real what is yet to be.

Piracy. So last decade :P.

The Mechanical Aggressor
30-11-2011, 12:21 AM
You know what pisses me off? In the interview with PC Gamer, CDProjekt's CEO ,Marcin Iwinski , talks a lot of good common sense, like how DRM isn't worth it because it negatively affects legitimate buyers of the game and barely affects pirates. However, other sites, such as Eurogamer and VG247, decide to report on the interview with a big headline about how much The Witcher 2 was pirated, which totally misses the point that the CEO was trying to convey, which I think is an important message. The fact that the title of this thread is about the piracy statistic, rather than the message the CEO was trying to send out, shows how the gaming media's need for catchy headlines and page views has complete changed this interview into another story about how much piracy is ruining PC gaming, when it should have been quite the opposite.

Alex Bakke
30-11-2011, 12:39 AM
It's also important to remember that a pirated copy doesn't mean a lost sale.

coldvvvave
30-11-2011, 01:03 AM
I bought it on Steam and it just wasn't very good, I never even finished second act. Turns out pirate-before-buying crowd wasn't very impressed with this game too. CDP are nice people but IMO after all the hype game just failed to deliver and the result is unfortunate but fair.

Lukasz
30-11-2011, 01:40 AM
I bought it on Steam and it just wasn't very good, I never even finished second act. Turns out pirate-before-buying crowd wasn't very impressed with this game too. CDP are nice people but IMO after all the hype game just failed to deliver and the result is unfortunate but fair.
Yet it got recommendation from RPS as far as I remember and bunch of people here called it their GOTY.

:( i am yet to play my CE i bought in december last year.

kyrieee
30-11-2011, 02:06 AM
You guys must've caught the bug, Witcher 2 is freaking amazing.

SirKicksalot
30-11-2011, 02:10 AM
Yet it got recommendation from RPS as far as I remember and bunch of people here called it their GOTY.



I'm sure much of the praise comes from it being a flagship PC title and from people thinking CD Projekt are a small company.
Let's see how it does on consoles, especially considering that the combat is a poor man's Demon's/Dark Souls.

TODD
30-11-2011, 02:22 AM
It's also important to remember that a pirated copy doesn't mean a lost sale.

Pretty sure this point was covered in the first post, Mr. Kneejerk.

Casimir Effect
30-11-2011, 02:22 AM
I'm sure much of the praise comes from it being a flagship PC title and from people thinking CD Projekt are a small company.
Let's see how it does on consoles, especially considering that the combat is a poor man's Demon's/Dark Souls.
The gameplay is secondary to the story, characters and setting though. And some people actually really like the combat of the game, it certainly resonated with me.

The praise comes from the fact it's a game which did something different and risky with an entire chapter (ie. made 2 seperate paths), looked better than most AAA games graphically but coupeld that with some excellent art, sounded great (lets just say great production values all round), was of good length, allowed for consequences to actions (a rare thing in gaming) all the while being a singluar experience (DA2 is perhaps the closest equivalent and well...) and mediated by the fact it came from a small developer.
The whole flagship PC thing didn't come into it much, especially when it was noted the UI was made with gamepads in mind so a console port was expected. In fact this possibly harmed the game in the eyes of the most hardcore PC fans.

deano2099
30-11-2011, 02:24 AM
So because you happened to not like the game you should have pirated it instead? What other medium of entertainment grants you the god-given right to enjoy said entertainment?
TV and Music? Okay not a god-given right, but broadcast TV and radio are freely available.


I agree with your second line, but with the first one, the sequel isn't a $100/£70+ hole in your pocket.
At least with the 'no DRM' approach though, you can sell it on.

Tams80
30-11-2011, 02:57 AM
Article headline: 'CD Projekt estimates The Witcher 2 has been pirated over 4.5 million times'

Ending quote: “This, together with a long process of educating local gamers about why it makes sense to actually buy games legally, worked. And today, we have a reasonably healthy games market.”

I think vg247 got that the wrong way around.

At least PCGamer did better: 'Interview: CD Projekt’s CEO on Witcher 2 piracy, why DRM’s still not worth it'

soldant
30-11-2011, 03:25 AM
I bought it on Steam and it just wasn't very good, I never even finished second act. Turns out pirate-before-buying crowd wasn't very impressed with this game too. CDP are nice people but IMO after all the hype game just failed to deliver and the result is unfortunate but fair.
So it isn't just me! I just don't like either of the games, I can't get into the storyline and don't like any of the characters. Not sure why people adore it so much...

vinraith
30-11-2011, 03:33 AM
I'm deeply skeptical of their derived numbers, but very pleased with their general attitude. I bought Witcher 2 on release, at full price, direct from GOG, exactly because these guys are awesome. I haven't found time to play it yet, and knew I probably wouldn't, but this is a case where the developers deserve support.

sabrage
30-11-2011, 05:59 AM
I think the lesson to be learned out of all of this is that demos are never a fucking bad thing.

archonsod
30-11-2011, 07:12 AM
So it isn't just me! I just don't like either of the games, I can't get into the storyline and don't like any of the characters. Not sure why people adore it so much...

Me neither. The writing isn't brilliant (admittedly, I found the book tiresome too), the world is a fairly typical fantasy setting and the gameplay while promising tends to be brought down by some really irritating bugs.

R-F
30-11-2011, 07:50 AM
I torrented it after buying it on Steam because it has, for about six months, not worked properly on Steam.

Therefore, no.

Nalano
30-11-2011, 08:14 AM
So it isn't just me! I just don't like either of the games, I can't get into the storyline and don't like any of the characters. Not sure why people adore it so much...

Well, I personally like it because the characters aren't Hollywood beautiful, nor are they living in a Hollywood revisionist version of a medieval world - ie: modern social values don't predominate. People are ugly - physically and morally - dirty, racist, lustful and more recognizably human. The cost of waging war is dealt with realistically, and the moral choices are all of a "best of a bad situation" sort of difficulty.

Foppish kings, grubby viziers, mean commanders, opportunistic soldiers, xenophobic peasantry... it quite adroitly explains Geralt's morality as well as his cynicism. When you do 'good' things, you feel like you're making a tiny difference and you don't feel like the narrative is over-playing it, nor do you get the "lawful stupid" cognitive dissonance that a more traditional RPG would offer.

The story becomes your making it through the world, instead of simply "hero saves the world" a la BioWare or "theme park rollercoaster" a la Activision.

soldant
30-11-2011, 08:21 AM
Well, I personally like it because the characters aren't Hollywood beautiful, nor are they living in a Hollywood revisionist version of a medieval world.
I could respect that if I saw any evidence of it. I can't agree with the physically ugly models or people (most of the women don't seem to fit that description at least) and I was prepared to like Geralt's cynicism... but the story wasn't particularly engaging for me nor did any of the characters seem interesting. When I say "like" the characters I don't mean positively, I mean in any way at all. I don't find any reason to care about anything in the game world.

I can respect that they went for a downtrodden world, but it didn't do anything to draw me in. Like archonsod, it looked fairly generic to me, just without the high morality. But I didn't find that particularly well done or entertaining either, so in the end I just gave up.

Nalano
30-11-2011, 08:37 AM
I could respect that if I saw any evidence of it. I can't agree with the physically ugly models or people (most of the women don't seem to fit that description at least) and I was prepared to like Geralt's cynicism... but the story wasn't particularly engaging for me nor did any of the characters seem interesting. When I say "like" the characters I don't mean positively, I mean in any way at all. I don't find any reason to care about anything in the game world.

I can respect that they went for a downtrodden world, but it didn't do anything to draw me in. Like archonsod, it looked fairly generic to me, just without the high morality. But I didn't find that particularly well done or entertaining either, so in the end I just gave up.

Well, I disagree. So there.

soldant
30-11-2011, 08:48 AM
Well, I disagree. So there.
Um, I'm not debating it or saying you're wrong. I'm just explaining why I didn't enjoy it, since you seem to think that I just want a silly cookie-cutter "I am flawless hero/brooding anti-hero!" story. Which I never said.

Nalano
30-11-2011, 08:57 AM
Um, I'm not debating it or saying you're wrong. I'm just explaining why I didn't enjoy it, since you seem to think that I just want a silly cookie-cutter "I am flawless hero/brooding anti-hero!" story. Which I never said.

I didn't say you wanted that. I said I liked it because it wasn't that, since you expressed confusion as to why people liked it.

squirrel
30-11-2011, 09:35 AM
I wonder how they came up with the stats. They said they estimated the figure from data by torrent sites. What about torrents that do not use trackers?

Besides, downloading is necessary but not sufficient condition for pirating. Installing is. This is not a courtroom argument, because only installation and use of a soft would cause commercial damage its publisher and customer.

BTW, I downloaded the crack file immediately after I had bought the game, because I did not believe in CD Projekt's non-legal binding promise on releasing DRM remover. Did you think they would count me in one of that 4.5 million population?

But yet I am so pleased by their promise on the DRM policy. Keep up the good work, CD Projekt.

hamster
30-11-2011, 09:48 AM
I think it's safe to assume everyone who downloads a game subsequently installs it to play.

Malawi Frontier Guard
30-11-2011, 10:14 AM
I think it's safe to assume everyone who downloads a game subsequently installs it to play.

I download games only to sell them around schoolyards on floppy discs.

squirrel
30-11-2011, 10:14 AM
I think it's safe to assume everyone who downloads a game subsequently installs it to play.

I really dont want to try to make it like playing courtroom tactics, but trust me, downloading would not always lead to installation. In fact, most of my friends who download tons of PC games dont install them, and turn out play only the games they bought (and of course, such are the games with highest value for them to worth the time). I downloaded pirated and activated Windows 7, yet mine is a Dell machine and already had OEM version of MS Windows 7 installed. I did this to ensure that I totally own the Windows 7 I have bought. Damn Dell wont provide the full-disc version for MS Windows 7. Instead they draw a partition within your hard disk, so that when you have to reinstall everything you can boot from that partition. I am not sure how this work out, and will definitely demand that they send technicians to work it out for me.

Mihkel
30-11-2011, 11:30 AM
What about people who pirated to see how the game was? I did that and after finding myself enjoying it alot I bought it for full price.

Kadayi
30-11-2011, 01:06 PM
What about people who pirated to see how the game was? I did that and after finding myself enjoying it a lot I bought it for full price.

What about them?

Taidan
30-11-2011, 01:16 PM
I didn't read the article.

Did they make enough money to cover the production costs, and make a big fat chunk of profit on top, or is it all bad news?

Kadayi
30-11-2011, 01:59 PM
I didn't read the article.

Did they make enough money to cover the production costs, and make a big fat chunk of profit on top, or is it all bad news?

I believe their hope was that they'd sell more copies, and that they under performed when it came to digital sales Vs retail especially through their flagship GOG (despite the better pre-order deal, they sold more digital units through Steam IIRC). I think their hope was that TW2 was going to win them a few accolades and maybe put them in with a good shout for if not GoTY then RPGoTY, however lack of an introductory tutorial coupled with some terrible boss fights + the enormity of Skyrim probably means they are SOOL tbh.

DaftPunk
30-11-2011, 02:24 PM
As far as i know,CD Projekt said that they're satisfied with sale numbers for Witcher 2.

Shane
30-11-2011, 03:50 PM
I know people who bought it twice. Just because.

I know a guy on GoG who bought around a dozen copies and gave them away for free.

Rii
30-11-2011, 08:45 PM
I bought and sold my copy but I'll happily buy it again next year.

Althea
30-11-2011, 08:47 PM
And if you buy it from now onwards, you can can get the retail 2.0 edition! Yay!

Rii
30-11-2011, 08:52 PM
And if you buy it from now onwards, you can can get the retail 2.0 edition! Yay!

That's one of the reasons I was willing to sell it: I figured an improved release was probably on the way. And with CDPR having announced that they're working on like fifteen titles right now, one of them just has to be The Witcher 2: Enhanced Edition. Probably due for release around the same time as the X360 version.

The other reason I sold it is because there was no printing down the side of the box so I couldn't file it away in my bookshelf.

Althea
30-11-2011, 08:55 PM
My soundtrack CD was unlabelled.

Yeah, it's a really high quality product from Namco Bandai. Really high quality.

Rii
30-11-2011, 09:13 PM
Well it was a box, with a manual and everything. That's pretty unusual for a PC game these days.

It kinda makes me laugh though: it turns out that when publishers/devs increase their profit margins by publishing on PC rather than having to pay platform holders for the privilege, they suddenly turn out to be unable to afford manuals and other rudiments of civilisation.

It's the same race to the bottom that gave us the 1983 American video game crash and which led to Nintendo dictating to developers (amongst more objectionable terms) that their games must meet certain minimum QA standards. All of this has happened before and will happen again.

And people wonder why Blizzard rolls near everyone else on PC.

Althea
30-11-2011, 09:34 PM
But console games are priced higher - likely due to increased popularity, but also to mitigate (to some degree) the cost of the licensing and what have you.

I do lament the mostly-gone tome of a manual, but in a way it's actually an improvement. Civ IV's manual was the size of a DVD case and came in a double-thickness box with the game, and I was worried I'd damage it (doubly so as it was my dad's copy), and my thicker manual for Drakensang: The River of Time got slightly damaged by the case. It seems to me that if we want bigger manuals, we have to go to bigger boxes. How many of us want to do that, and is it beneficial for the publishers/stores? Bigger boxes means less stock per cubic metre, which means less potential profit and/or higher prices to reflect the room they take up. In a time when stores are seemingly more and more reluctant to carry the stock, that means they might simply write it all off and cease to carry PC games.

There's also the home-ordering thing to look at. Bigger boxes means more weight, and in the UK at least both weight and size contribute to the cost of an item. That means postage might go up, or pricing going up to reflect that (if they offer "free" postage), and perhaps more cases of undelivered games, thus inconveniencing us all.

And there's those who buy digital only, who aren't affected whatsoever beyond a few more MB (at most) for their online manuals.

Rii
30-11-2011, 09:55 PM
But console games are priced higher - likely due to increased popularity, but also to mitigate (to some degree) the cost of the licensing and what have you.

I do lament the mostly-gone tome of a manual, but in a way it's actually an improvement. Civ IV's manual was the size of a DVD case and came in a double-thickness box with the game, and I was worried I'd damage it (doubly so as it was my dad's copy), and my thicker manual for Drakensang: The River of Time got slightly damaged by the case. It seems to me that if we want bigger manuals, we have to go to bigger boxes.

Well I don't mind somewhat-larger-than-DVD-size boxes, but I agree the really large boxes are gone for good and that that's probably for the best. But some of my fondest PC gaming memories revolve around games with chunky manuals and the reading thereof: Age of Empires, Starcraft, Dark Reign, Civilization III...


In a time when stores are seemingly more and more reluctant to carry the stock, that means they might simply write it all off and cease to carry PC games.

But like Ubisoft on DRM this is a chicken-and-the-egg thing. I usually buy multiplatform titles on consoles even if I play them on PC, because that's where the decent product is with platform holders forcing devs to not cut every conceivable corner. I'm not paying for the experience of playing the game because I can do that for free, just as listening to radio or watching television or borrowing books from the library. What I'm paying for is the value-added bits, where most publishers on PC today seem concerned only with subtracting value from the free alternative and unconcerned as to the quality of the product they're actually serving up (input responsiveness, FOV/vSync, etc.).

Blizzard can sell a bajillion copies of creatively unambitious games like SC2 and get away with stuff like charging $15/mo for WoW, always online for D3, etc. because their products are presented to a standard matched only by the output from Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo's internal studios. And that's not about having bajillions of dollars, but rather about showing due care for the customer's experience, from opening the box to navigating menus to not being bugged up the arse. First-party console work is generally done to a high standard because the suits there know there's more at stake than the immediate balance sheets for that particular game. Ubisoft, in contrast, doesn't appear to care that they have systematically alienated most of their potential audience on PC.

Althea
30-11-2011, 10:17 PM
To stick with Ubisoft, I'd disagree. I will agree that they aren't the best publisher and do a lot of wrong to the PC, but at the same time they're not. Name another publisher of their calibre putting out titles like Anno, The Settlers and Might & Magic - and PC exclusive titles at that. Can you? No, because the only real competitors are Kalypso and Paradox, and they don't hit the same figures. Yes, they have been quite dickish with aspects of the later releases - 2070 and M&MH VI aren't fully functional if you're offline, TS7 is a poorly-optimised and broken game - but it is slightly offset by the prevalence of stable online connections and so forth. Perhaps they know they have a market cornered, so that's why they do it. I don't know.

But yeah, a lot of multi-platform games seem to be crap(per) on PC, even if the studio is PC-centric in some aspects. Bethesda, Gearbox, Epic - they've all "forgotten" their roots in a way.

Rii
30-11-2011, 10:50 PM
With those sorts of long-running series it's fair to say that you have a core audience who will almost certainly buy the game unless it turns out to have herpes or hexagonal tiles or whatever. But you also want to draw in new gamers if possible, and you don't do that by giving them reasons to dismiss your game.

Anno 2070 is a game that I was mildly interested in, but dismissed on account of the 'Ubisoft' label. Then when the demo was released I was evidently feeling generous at the time and set about downloading it. The next day when I discovered it sitting completed in my torrents folder I deleted it. It's entirely possible that I missed out on what might've been my Game of the Year, but certainly Ubisoft missed out on the chance to pick up a fan and his money, and the fact that my associations with Ubisoft are almost entirely negative at this point played no small part in that.


But yeah, a lot of multi-platform games seem to be crap(per) on PC, even if the studio is PC-centric in some aspects. Bethesda, Gearbox, Epic - they've all "forgotten" their roots in a way.

I found it incredible that id was 'surprised' at the reception of Rage on PC. It's like they didn't have even the slightest grasp of their audience. What exactly did they think they were trading on?

Nalano
30-11-2011, 11:21 PM
unless it turns out to have herpes or hexagonal tiles or whatever

The hex tiles were a great idea! The fact that the game was greatly simplified from IV+BtS+WL (no religions, no corporations, no foreign trade except for strategic resources, no foreign citizenry, no corruption) wasn't.

Althea
30-11-2011, 11:30 PM
With those sorts of long-running series it's fair to say that you have a core audience who will almost certainly buy the game unless it turns out to have herpes or hexagonal tiles or whatever. But you also want to draw in new gamers if possible, and you don't do that by giving them reasons to dismiss your game.
No, it's why you update and make it more accessible. The Settlers 7 is a bit weird in that regard, as it's infinitely more complex than The Settlers 6, which was more of a "traditional" RTS, like Age of Empires or Empire Earth. But whilst I agree you don't want people to dismiss it, the sword is double-edged. They didn't fully screw up with always-on, one aspect worth praising - pretty much the only one - is you get unlimited installs. So, you're trading your "freedom" for being a bitch to Ubisoft's servers. Not exactly a good compromise, if I'm honest, and combined with the rather poor balancing of TS7 (the last mission is a ridiculous jump in difficulty) and the lack of decent optimisation and visuals, it's likely not worth it for some. But hopefully Ubisoft will learn - their more recent games seem to show some progression, thankfully.


Anno 2070 is a game that I was mildly interested in, but dismissed on account of the 'Ubisoft' label. Then when the demo was released I was evidently feeling generous at the time and set about downloading it. The next day when I discovered it sitting completed in my torrents folder I deleted it. It's entirely possible that I missed out on what might've been my Game of the Year, but certainly Ubisoft missed out on the chance to pick up a fan and his money, and the fact that my associations with Ubisoft are almost entirely negative at this point played no small part in that.
That's a fair criticism, I guess, and judging by the Anno 2070 forums you're not entirely unjustified. It looks like it wasn't a particularly smooth or well co-ordinated launch, not to mention the attention the English-speaking world got (which goes for The Settlers too) was lacking.


I found it incredible that id was 'surprised' at the reception of Rage on PC. It's like they didn't have even the slightest grasp of their audience. What exactly did they think they were trading on?
But didn't you know id are the self-proclaimed gods of gaming who can do no wrong? They did Quake and Doom, y'know, and people are still stupid enough to spend money for the overpriced versions sat on Steam, so they must have done something right, right? Rage did badly because id did a bad job, not for any other reason. Make sure your technology is what you say it is, and make sure it's ready before it goes out.

Whilst we're criticising companies, I think I might as well take a shot at CDP RED, it's only fair. Are they doing good things? Yes! Very much so. Their attitude is to be applauded. But The Witcher 2 was... all over the place. As mentioned earlier, the introduction was absolutely horrific. I had no idea what I was doing at any point - in the jail, which dialogue should I choose? Should it be random? I don't know, it wasn't explained. I appeared in a camp, and Triss' body was stiff and horrible. For all their attention to detail, they missed Triss' breasts. They didn't move. Did she fill them with concrete or something? And then there was Geralt putting on a boot, which - to me - was nothing but clipping. Yeah, real high quality...


The hex tiles were a great idea! The fact that the game was greatly simplified from IV+BtS+WL (no religions, no corporations, no foreign trade except for strategic resources, no foreign citizenry, no corruption) wasn't.
Disagree, sort of. V did simplify the formula a bit too much, but I think it was largely an improvement over IV. It cut a lot of the crap that IV accumulated over two expansions, and streamlined the experience. Religion was largely something that didn't really matter in my experience, espionage was just not something I saw any real reason to bother with - It got bloated very quickly. V cut all that and had a much better, smoother, cleaner UI too, and I feel it created a better game.

deano2099
01-12-2011, 12:51 AM
I think it's safe to assume everyone who downloads a game subsequently installs it to play.

There's a thread around here all about games people buy on Steam that they still don't get around to playing. For stuff that is free the numbers must be even greater. People like to hoard stuff, some people just download pretty much everything.

Keep
01-12-2011, 01:02 AM
There's a thread around here all about games people buy on Steam that they still don't get around to playing. For stuff that is free the numbers must be even greater. People like to hoard stuff, some people just download pretty much everything.

When he used download torrents, my brother once wanted to hear one Dylan song. So he downloaded his entire discography.

Nalano
01-12-2011, 01:20 AM
Disagree, sort of. V did simplify the formula a bit too much, but I think it was largely an improvement over IV. It cut a lot of the crap that IV accumulated over two expansions, and streamlined the experience. Religion was largely something that didn't really matter in my experience, espionage was just not something I saw any real reason to bother with - It got bloated very quickly. V cut all that and had a much better, smoother, cleaner UI too, and I feel it created a better game.

Religion made a huge difference if you were adamant about it - as a secondary set of political alliances but also post-religious freedom. Corporations were fantastic in bankrupting your opponents and curbing runaway economies. Foreign citizenry and foreign trade (showing up on the city screen) made peaceful relations with your neighbors far more pertinent.

I agree that the new system streamlined a few things (no longer do I have to worry about individual cities meeting food quotas, and I have nothing but good things to say about how they eliminated Stacks of Doom™) but it feels more gamey than previous iterations.

redspielened
01-12-2011, 02:32 AM
4.5 mil downloads =/= 4.5 mil players

Some people downloaded it so they can up their ratio, not to play the game. Some people may have downloaded the game but not played it. Some may have downloaded the game and then bought it. Some may have no purchasing power so they downloaded it from a torrent (children who's parents wouldn't pay for their games, children who don't have the money, etc). And many other scenarios.

What people often fail to understand is that there are people all over the world playing video games, and in some parts of the world they can barely afford the money to have Internet, let alone to buy a bunch of video games, especially when we talk about children. If this was about some typical middle-class people from a western society that can't be bothered to pay 40$ for a game once in a while while they still have 2-300$ extra to spend every month after bills/rent/etc, I'd agree with the "burn them at the stake" people, but since piracy isn't always like that, then I can't agree. And also because piracy isn't just piracy of video games, it's of films, books, music, etc too, and while it might not seem like it, the ability for someone to get certain books, movies or songs that they couldn't otherwise get might pay in the education that person receives through that media. It might work for businesses to say that they lost x $ cause someone downloaded something instead of buying it, but it's harder to estimate the cost and benefit of such media as they influence societies. Plus, some stuff can't be bought in certain countries, only pirated. What then?

As a personal example, if I wouldn't have been able to pirate a lot of the stuff that I did, I probably would've ended up a lot worse. Keep in mind, if I would've wanted to buy this stuff it would've been either close to impossible to acquire, or too financially damaging to do so. Let's start at the beginning. Before I was 10, I had games like Pharaoh, Stronghold, Medieval Total War etc. which created an interest in other cultures, specifically history and mythologies (even though I didn't have my own PC to play them at), this basically made me open to learning, plus my first geography lessons were those of MTW; this is besides the fact that it helped me with my English. As I grew up and started my teenage years I got a PC (but no internet myself) which made a lot more things possible. The fact that I could get Tool's discography helped shape my thinking so I wasn't close minded and would be more thoughtful of interpretation, plus it made me more conscious about what it is to listen to music, what you hear, what is good music, etc. The movies I would get, even though a lot of them were just the Hollywood production of the year, helped me deal with emotions, they let me see different aspects of human life and analyse them and incorporate the lessons I could draw from them into my own life (more foresight than hindsight); stuff like "Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter.. and Spring", but not only! Plus a lot of documentaries, anything from "The day the universe changed" to "Guys and dolls". When I started High-school I also began reading a lot more, and a lot of stuff wasn't available at the library, or even in book shops, so the only way I could get a hold of them was to download scanned copies. Or maybe some books were available, but only in translated form, which wasn't good enough. But the point is, had I not been introduced to the wonderful world of computers through pirated media, I may well have ended up somewhere else along the way, especially since I lived in quite a rough neighbourhood and was affiliated with bad apples, so to speak - but I could still have a foot in the computer side of things. Paying the price of original games at the time was impossible, as they costed too much; and while I wasn't picky at the time, you have to keep in mind that there were very few original games to choose from, a lot of them just kiddie "educational" games which were rubbish; in fact, even to get a pirated copy was hard, though it also costed - but a lot less. So getting hooked on video games helped me stay in the computer world, which in turn helped open up other areas, such as music, film, literature, as well as developing the very important skill of speaking English - thanks to which I can study in a better country. Whatever knowledge and intelligence I have now is in a good part due to piracy.

So, it's hard to just say "piracy is bad, mmkay". In fact, it's inane. But I can understand if most people can't see that far.

Noirdeathe
01-12-2011, 02:36 AM
I am happy to say I think The Witcher is one of the -only- games people I know didn't pirate.

deano2099
01-12-2011, 03:18 AM
When he used download torrents, my brother once wanted to hear one Dylan song. So he downloaded his entire discography.

Torrents have always been better for big files than for small ones. I can only imagine the looks on the faces of the record company execs when the finally succeeded in shutting down Napster, only to be told the replacement technology pushes people towards entire albums or discographies instead of single-song sharing.

hamster
01-12-2011, 06:16 AM
There's a thread around here all about games people buy on Steam that they still don't get around to playing. For stuff that is free the numbers must be even greater. People like to hoard stuff, some people just download pretty much everything.

Aha but if you've already impulse pirated something, it definitely precludes you from (impulse) buying it on Steam anyway even if you don't install it (assuming you remember what you pirated).

Speaking of which I need to upgrade my damn computer and get Witcher 2.

Nalano
01-12-2011, 06:50 AM
Aha but if you've already impulse pirated something, it definitely precludes you from (impulse) buying it on Steam anyway even if you don't install it (assuming you remember what you pirated).

That's what we've devolved to? What message does that send to the publishers?

"Fuck, half of 'em don't even play the game anyway! Just release it as-is and charge... oh hell, I dunno. $70? That way it sounds like it's quality, and the fanboys will defend it to death just because that's what they do!"

hamster
01-12-2011, 06:55 AM
Huh? I mean mass pirating stuff you don't install is no different from installing stuff you have pirated. In effect, worse, actually, since if you have it downloaded but unplayed, there's no chance you'll buy the real thing.

Nalano
01-12-2011, 06:58 AM
Huh? I mean mass pirating stuff you don't install is no different from installing stuff you have pirated. In effect, worse, actually, since if you have it downloaded but unplayed, there's no chance you'll buy the real thing.

You were talking about getting bit by the gotta-collect-'em-all bug and impulse acquisition. I'm saying that if you divorce actually playing the game from the act of acquiring the game, then that sends the wrong message to the publishers that is far and away more disastrous than wanton piracy.

sabrage
01-12-2011, 07:25 AM
If you care about a game so little that you won't even play it for free, why the hell would you ever buy it?

archonsod
01-12-2011, 07:44 AM
The hex tiles were a great idea! The fact that the game was greatly simplified from IV+BtS+WL (no religions, no corporations, no foreign trade except for strategic resources, no foreign citizenry, no corruption) wasn't.

Well yeah, but there's two expansions in there. Compare V to IV on the other hand ...



If this was about some typical middle-class people from a western society that can't be bothered to pay 40$ for a game once in a while while they still have 2-300$ extra to spend every month after bills/rent/etc, I'd agree with the "burn them at the stake" people

lolwut? These are games, not medicines or food. They're luxury goods. If you can't afford the $40 for a game, then you've got far more important things to be doing than gaming in the first place.

Nalano
01-12-2011, 08:39 AM
Well yeah, but there's two expansions in there. Compare V to IV on the other hand ...

UT2k4 was UT2k3 + all the maps + all the gamemodes + all the extras.

And it was AWESOME.

deano2099
01-12-2011, 09:44 AM
Aha but if you've already impulse pirated something, it definitely precludes you from (impulse) buying it on Steam anyway even if you don't install it (assuming you remember what you pirated).

Not necessarily. I mean what you say makes sense but on the other hand, I've done just that in the past.

hamster
01-12-2011, 09:53 AM
You're nuts!

Taidan
01-12-2011, 11:09 AM
Purely anecdotally...

I work with a few people who pirate pretty much every game they can get their hands on, as the acquisition of these games has a definite value to them. They don't actually want to play these games, they just like having them. I think they view the act as a shrewd act of consumption, and partially as a social manoeuvre, as their latest bounty is usually a prime subject of discussion and is freely offered to any and all. But they definitely don't seem to actually play many of them, and if they do, it's usually just for a "quick look".

(I should probably mention that these particular people are all guys, they're "relatively young" and they're working in IT, in some capacity. Not sure if relevant.)

Oddly enough, they also always buy a small handful of the biggest, most hyped releases automatically, as close to release date as possible. Apparently there are some games "You just have to buy on launch day". These games get discussed with great excitement for months leading up the "The Event", and if there's a midnight opening, they're there. Strangely, these games don't seem to get played much after a couple of days. I know of at least one copy of Gears of War 3 that's still in it's shrink-wrap. Only one person I work with was actually still playing Skyrim after the first week, despite the fact that everybody owns it. The fact that these uber-games were bought on release day is made well-known, though.

Then come the Steam sales. That is when money is spent, as the padding of the number of games in one's Steam account is a very conspicuous act of ownership. (Let's skip the technicalities of Steam's EULA here, it doesn't matter.) Oddly enough, I have many times noted that money is spent on big-name titles that were previously pirated and never played. Fallout: New Vegas was a notable example in the most recent sale, as a lot of people I know pirated it initially, and all of them without fail bought it when it was down to £3.74. And then they bought all of the DLC to go with it, which pushed the price of the lot up to three times of the game alone. And they told me all about this purchase. As best as I can tell, none of them have actually played it for more than an hour yet. The new Deus Ex game also appears to have had the same treatment in a couple of cases.

What do they actually play? As best I can tell, they play World of Warcraft, Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition(On consoles), and a bit of Minecraft every now and again.

I think that these people have bought into the whole culture of hype far too much. They've been told they want these games, they certainly can't afford all of them, and they're reacting to all of that. They appear to value the act of playing these games as secondary to the act of actually owning these games. (in some form)

Althea
01-12-2011, 12:04 PM
Taidan, have you tried hitting them? It might knock some sense into them.

Drake Sigar
01-12-2011, 12:26 PM
Purely anecdotally...

I work with a few people who pirate pretty much every game they can get their hands on, as the acquisition of these games has a definite value to them. They don't actually want to play these games, they just like having them.

I did something similar by stealing money from my parents for the sole purpose of looking at said money rather than use it to obtain a toy, but I was 7. What's their excuse? Reading through your post it sounds like games are simply fashion to these people. It was inevitable that the controversy and hype surrounding the games industry combined with the rapid growth would attract this type, a huge demographic publishers condemn and yet are totally reliant on to buy the next Call of Duty like the trained seals they are.

deano2099
01-12-2011, 01:39 PM
You're nuts!

Well, yes.

But to be fair it's not far off people picking up games that are super-cheap in the Steam sale even though they already have boxed copies. Which is still seen as a bit odd but seems to be common behaviour around here...

redspielened
01-12-2011, 02:49 PM
lolwut? These are games, not medicines or food. They're luxury goods. If you can't afford the $40 for a game, then you've got far more important things to be doing than gaming in the first place.

Whether or not someone may have more important things to do or not is not up to you to decide. And anyway, I was more talking about kids and their families who might not have the money needed to pay for original games. In that case it's harder to jump on your moral high horse and say "That's still wrong!". You might have a point, if it were that we'd have a deontological moral value system, but since public policy follows utilitarian standards more often, you might even argue that in that case it's morally RIGHT to pirate. Or at least, if not morally right, silently tolerated.

Taidan
01-12-2011, 03:11 PM
Taidan, have you tried hitting them? It might knock some sense into them.

Hitting is done, yes. I can answer with an almost scientific certainty that "sense" is not acquired via these means. I don't resent them, though. Ultimately they spend probably as much money on the gaming industry as I do, but arguably don't consume as much.

(Depending on whether you classify the act of "consuming" as actually spending your time playing these games, or simply having the data sitting idle on a drive somewhere. - Which is how I'm trying to tie my anecdote in with the greater conversation.)


What's their excuse? Reading through your post it sounds like games are simply fashion to these people. It was inevitable that the controversy and hype surrounding the games industry combined with the rapid growth would attract this type, a huge demographic publishers condemn and yet are totally reliant on to buy the next Call of Duty like the trained seals they are.

Pretty much what you said. They buy into the maniac hype that surrounds the industry. They've been trained like obedient little dogs to want, want, want, and then they fulfil that training in the most economical way they can find. You can't entirely blame them, they're just acting like the consumers that the industry want them to be... except that the grounded reality of the situation means that the industry itself is practically relying on our goodwill and charity to keep our end of the bargain. (A goodwill that they're absolutely pissing away down the drain in my case. But I don't mind, because between GOG, the indie scene and my own generous backlog, I can happily live without acquiring new games for at least a couple of decades to come.)

cardason
05-12-2011, 11:30 AM
Wow. That's a LOT to have heard of your franchise! So they won't buy a videogame, pfft, sell 'em Witcher Stickers at $1 each. You'll make a killing!

In other words, don't cry over what could have been. Get to work on making real what is yet to be.

Piracy. So last decade :P.

It doesn't sound likes hes "crying" to me, simply stating his opinion. I like CDrojeckt simply for GOG, and while I do agree that the download time is somewhat optimistic its probably been pirated far more than that. Personally I have never played Witcher 2 as I did not enjoy the first, but they do not deserve this.

Lukasz
05-12-2011, 12:42 PM
Whether or not someone may have more important things to do or not is not up to you to decide. And anyway, I was more talking about kids and their families who might not have the money needed to pay for original games. In that case it's harder to jump on your moral high horse and say "That's still wrong!". You might have a point, if it were that we'd have a deontological moral value system, but since public policy follows utilitarian standards more often, you might even argue that in that case it's morally RIGHT to pirate. Or at least, if not morally right, silently tolerated.

no.
Archonsod is right. Games are luxury goods. You do not deserve, do not need to play them. If you cannot afford it/don't want to give money to publishers you should not pirate it. There is nothing really to discuss here. If you are eight years old, save up your allowance, go to work for your aunt, grandma, neighbor, you know... like when we were kids and tried to buy that transformers toy or go to the movies. It's not right to pirate just because its easy.

deano2099
05-12-2011, 01:11 PM
no.
Archonsod is right. Games are luxury goods. You do not deserve, do not need to play them. If you cannot afford it/don't want to give money to publishers you should not pirate it. There is nothing really to discuss here. If you are eight years old, save up your allowance, go to work for your aunt, grandma, neighbor, you know... like when we were kids and tried to buy that transformers toy or go to the movies. It's not right to pirate just because its easy.

The difference between those who see games as luxury goods and those who see them as art I imagine. I'd wager that a huge number of our top creators today wouldn't be doing what they're doing if not for pirating stuff when younger. That exposure to vast quantities of games to experiment with can be hugely formative. Sure, it's not 'right', but you can get free movies if you wait long enough for them to be shown on TV, free music on the radio, free books at the library... there should be something that offers older 'full' games away for free (yes: Steam - but huge difference between £1 and free when you're a kid with no credit card).

Lukasz
05-12-2011, 01:30 PM
The difference between those who see games as luxury goods and those who see them as art I imagine. I'd wager that a huge number of our top creators today wouldn't be doing what they're doing if not for pirating stuff when younger. That exposure to vast quantities of games to experiment with can be hugely formative. Sure, it's not 'right', but you can get free movies if you wait long enough for them to be shown on TV, free music on the radio, free books at the library... there should be something that offers older 'full' games away for free (yes: Steam - but huge difference between £1 and free when you're a kid with no credit card).

art is luxury good

and there are freewares, there are free weekends, there are friends from whom you can borrow and there is saving money up, waiting for xmas, b-days...

Kadayi
05-12-2011, 03:02 PM
The difference between those who see games as luxury goods and those who see them as art I imagine. I'd wager that a huge number of our top creators today wouldn't be doing what they're doing if not for pirating stuff when younger. That exposure to vast quantities of games to experiment with can be hugely formative. Sure, it's not 'right', but you can get free movies if you wait long enough for them to be shown on TV, free music on the radio, free books at the library... there should be something that offers older 'full' games away for free (yes: Steam - but huge difference between £1 and free when you're a kid with no credit card).

1) There's no such thing as free. Someone's paying somewhere in some form.

2) Where are these fictional 12 year PC gamers? Average PC gamer is about 28+. This notion that the bulk of PC piracy is somehow being instigated by a bunch of deprived children (though ones with decent gaming rigs) is a wishful thinking.

3) most online e-tailers will take Paypal & certain debit cards.

Smashbox
05-12-2011, 05:39 PM
2) Where are these fictional 12 year PC gamers?

Weren't we all these?

Nalano
05-12-2011, 05:46 PM
Weren't we all these?

This. Most of our first-hand accounts of piracy was doing it while we were still young tykes who didn't know any better (or at least gave that excuse).

Subatomic
05-12-2011, 05:56 PM
This. Most of our first-hand accounts of piracy was doing it while we were still young tykes who didn't know any better (or at least gave that excuse).

I think peer pressure also had a lot to do with it. You just had to have that game all your friends played and talked about, and so you asked them for a copy. I think I got most of my pirated copies back in the day during the LAN parties held in a friends basement, just so we could all play the same game. I brought Starcraft (though that had the great feature of spawn installation), a friend had Quake, another had C&C and so on. When I started university and no longer did LANs, my pirating dropped to zero.

Nalano
05-12-2011, 06:12 PM
When I started university and no longer did LANs, my pirating dropped to zero.

My university collared everybody's connection at 2 gigs a month (with any overs drowning you in steep fees), but local network was free. It actually served to exacerbate pirating because it forced everybody to band together and use DC++ so as to distribute the burden, which meant that anything on local DC++ was not only free game, but you were practically obligated to host shit in order to prove your fair share.

Kadayi
05-12-2011, 08:59 PM
This. Most of our first-hand accounts of piracy was doing it while we were still young tykes who didn't know any better (or at least gave that excuse).

Well this is the thing, nowadays the young tikes are generally on be found on a 360 or PS3.

Smashbox
05-12-2011, 09:04 PM
The situation isn't that much different from my youth, when you'd find many gamers on NESes, SNESes, Geneseses, etc. (We didn't really use Amigas over here)

redspielened
05-12-2011, 09:16 PM
no.
Archonsod is right. Games are luxury goods. You do not deserve, do not need to play them. If you cannot afford it/don't want to give money to publishers you should not pirate it. There is nothing really to discuss here. If you are eight years old, save up your allowance, go to work for your aunt, grandma, neighbor, you know... like when we were kids and tried to buy that transformers toy or go to the movies. It's not right to pirate just because its easy.

You're very obstinate. Fortunately, acting tough on the Internet means nothing. Your "argument" is pathetic, in so far as it has no real premises to support it. You just assume that what you say is right, i.e., "You do not deserve/need/etc."
The fact that you think you can "go work for your aunt, etc" (LOLWUT) when I specifically said in the previous posts that there are other people in the world besides the US/UK or other developed countries where this couldn't have been the case.
And if you're gonna summon some sort of moral duty to not pirate something, make sure to have some decent argument this time because in such cases where piracy is the only option the people there can give a much better counter-statement that their life isn't good and that's not right either, but it still is.
This is besides the fact that you haven't said anything of how piracy is wrong/bad/harmful/etc.

Nalano
05-12-2011, 10:04 PM
Well this is the thing, nowadays the young tikes are generally on be found on a 360 or PS3.

Those poor, deprived bastards.

Wulf
05-12-2011, 10:13 PM
I like that people are ugly and have scars

Me too. There's a sad part about this, though...

See, in the original concept art and early models for The Witcher 2, Geralt was actually more true to how the novels saw him. That is to say, he was more rugged, and more 'ugly' than he ended up being. However, a lot of gamers complained about this and there were something like three or four revisions to make Geralt more 'handsome and visually appealing.'

I am deeply disappointed by this and I'd rather that they kept the original Geralt for The Witcher 2. The funny part? To listen to their community like that was a management decision. The artists were seriously pissed off about it and they actually didn't like the way that Geralt ended up, preferring the original version. So Geralt still ended up prettier than his foes.

That was one of the big let downs about The Witcher 2, for me. If they'd kept Geralt looking more scarred and loutish then he wouldn't have had an aesthetic one up on the people he was fighting. But that people demanded that he look better than his opponents just says worrying things to me, it's not a sentiment that I'm fond of. I don't support the idea that all heroes should be pretty and perfect, not in the slightest.

So whilst it was nice that not all of the good guys in The Witcher 2 were pretty boys, it's still a shame that Geralt ended up being more 'generic handsome' than he otherwise would have been. This is design lesson #1 as to why you shouldn't listen to some of your fans, really.

(For those that don't know about this, this is the original face that people complained about (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110405230616/witcher/images/thumb/d/de/Newfaceen.png/342px-Newfaceen.png), and this is the younger, smoother looking Geralt they went with (http://www.gamebanshee.com/images/com_sobi2/clients/1379_ico.jpg).)

---

For those confused about the face, there were three iterations: The original alpha face, which didn't have the full set of normal maps, the new face (newfaceen.png) which was their 'final' design, and then the newer one after that that was designed in the face of a backlash over how Geralt was too 'ugly.')

Nalano
05-12-2011, 10:30 PM
I like the original, tho the original is still generic handsome (tho a bit grizzled)

sabrage
06-12-2011, 01:54 AM
The only (gaming related) thing I ever pirate anymore is DLC, and most of the time I wait long enough to buy a game that there's a "Game of the Year" or "complete" pack that negates the compulsion anyways. I don't like the idea that I'm buying my games in installments, but if a DLC truly added 25% of the game's running time I might actually pony up the $15 for it. As it stands, such a thing has never happened, and I'll just keep pretending that developers are adding to the world they created because they actually love them and not because they want to cash in on the tail end of its market consciousness.

This is especially true for pre-order or retailer exclusive DLC. My conscience doesn't skip a beat when I queue up that bullshit.

I'd also like to note that I've bought several games that I pirated in the past. This is 100% due to the convenience that Steam provides.

deano2099
06-12-2011, 02:14 AM
art is luxury good

and there are freewares, there are free weekends, there are friends from whom you can borrow and there is saving money up, waiting for xmas, b-days...

Well you can't borrow from friends anymore with most PC games, and that's no better than piracy is it, especially as said friend probably still has the game installed.

Thing is, these kids don't have much purchasing power - they do get games for xmas and b-days if it's what they're in to. They also pirate stuff. It has no negative effect. It's not like they can get more money to buy more games, they just don't have it. And no kid is going to be into games enough that they pirate stuff and then don't get games for b'day/xmas. They're maxed out already. And I for one would rather they got to play a wide variety of games than just the two biggest titles every year. Because then maybe when they grow up and get a job they'll buy indie games and obscure stuff and not just the ten biggest games.

A lot of us on here admit to pirating when young, I'd ask if you really think you'd be where you are now if you could only afford 3 games a year.


1) There's no such thing as free. Someone's paying somewhere in some form. Except in P2P file-sharing piracy where they're not.


2) Where are these fictional 12 year PC gamers? Average PC gamer is about 28+.

Even if that's true, it's likely measuring people who buy games, not people who pirate them. And it's meaningless. If there are 1 million 28 year-old gamers, 10 million 12 year-olds and 10 million 50 -year olds then the average is still 28.

This notion that the bulk of PC piracy is somehow being instigated by a bunch of deprived children (though ones with decent gaming rigs) is a wishful thinking.

3) most online e-tailers will take Paypal & certain debit cards.[/QUOTE]