PDA

View Full Version : "Hardcore" Wizardry MMO announced, permadeath, PKs



jealouspirate
09-06-2011, 07:24 PM
http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/06/09/e3-2011-first-look-at-wizardry-online/

"Wizardry is a very difficult game, and delights in killing the player. MMOs today coddle the player, but we're taking a different route. That said, this is a fair game that rewards the strategic and skillful player."

"When you die, you become a ghost and have a chance to get your body back," the rep said. "But if you should fail, you'll lose your body forever."

Apparently their goal is to go back to the early days of UO and Everquest and their philosophy. Group play is necessary to survive and the player will be given essentially no direction on where to go or how best to proceed. Players, even ones you're grouped with, can kill you (permanently) at any time and loot your corpse.

Is there still any interest in this kind of game?

Wizardry
09-06-2011, 07:28 PM
No. This is not Wizardry.

jealouspirate
09-06-2011, 07:40 PM
Maybe not in spirit (I have no idea, really), but it most certainly is officially a game of the Wizardry franchise.

Wizardry
09-06-2011, 07:43 PM
Not really. Some Japanese company bought the rights when Sir-Tech went bust. I haven't played any, but all the Japanese spin-offs seem to be based on the old Wizardry formula (I to V) rather than Wizardry VI to 8 (the best).

Tikey
09-06-2011, 07:44 PM
I don't remember clearly, but I don't recall wizardy having anime characters.

Malawi Frontier Guard
09-06-2011, 08:21 PM
Some Japanese company bought the rights when Sir-Tech went bust.

Yes, but they licensed out the name to Japan for ten years before that happened.

Wizardry
09-06-2011, 08:30 PM
Yes, but they licensed out the name to Japan for ten years before that happened.
Yes. And all of the games are spin-offs rather than part of the main Wizardry series. Plus, Wizardry is only worth talking about in a non-historic context today purely because of Wizardry VI to 8 rather than I to V.

jealouspirate
09-06-2011, 08:35 PM
Spin-off or whatever, the point being that this is an MMO called "Wizardry Online" that is just about the exact opposite of every popular MMO today. How do people think it will do? Would anyone here have any interest in playing it?

TillEulenspiegel
09-06-2011, 08:44 PM
Wizardry Online will be free-to-play with microtransactions

Step one in how not to run an MMO with free-for-all PK and permadeath...

I'm glad somebody is making a game like this. It's an interesting experiment. Do I want to play it? No. I also slightly hate that whenever someone mentions UO positively, they're almost always talking only about PK. Not the skill system, crafting, player housing, clothing, lack of overpowered gear, etc.

Wizardry
09-06-2011, 08:47 PM
Spin-off or whatever, the point being that this is an MMO called "Wizardry Online" that is just about the exact opposite of every popular MMO today. How do people think it will do? Would anyone here have any interest in playing it?
Yeah, sorry for slightly derailing the thread.

I don't think I'll bother with the game. I don't play MMORPGs, for starters. The features seem quite interesting and fresh for an MMORPG, but I doubt it will result in a good game. I'm way too cynical to hope that some Japanese developers will make a good MMORPG that doesn't ruin the Wizardry name. I can't see it happening.

Mouth of 10000 Teeth
09-06-2011, 08:55 PM
Dangerously OT, I'd be very interested in this if they can pull it off. I don't want to go back to the time in UO where you'd get ganked for 5 gold in the street, but having to keep an eye out for PKs, learning where was safe to mine at lower levels etc. was really the best era of the game for me. So long as there are clearly defined* non-PvP areas and the risk/reward balance is properly handled, great.

Till - I think that's because at one point, PvP in UO was very nearly ideal. Briefly perhaps, but it did something right. Housing, on the other hand, was a total disaster and lesson in how to totally ruin the atmosphere of a game world. Skills I'll agree with though. Just a shame the ruined it with all the damage/resist types, over-powered artifacts etc.

*And properly enforced. None of the "well you can kill someone in the town using a dagger and lethal poison but you'll get killed by the guards afterwards" nonsense. If I'm in a safe area then I'm safe and if I'm in a dangerous area I'm in danger. Degrees in between are fine, so long as each end is properly protected.

2nd edit: Okay, microtransactions has just totally killed this for me. They're the one thing that - cosmetic purchases aside - I absolutely will not tolerate in an MMO.

Creeping Death
09-06-2011, 08:57 PM
Hmm... A game where I can buy in-game items with real world money and then lose it all because some idiot high level player randomly decides to kill me and loot my body for kicks?


No thanks.

TillEulenspiegel
09-06-2011, 09:23 PM
Housing, on the other hand, was a total disaster and lesson in how to totally ruin the atmosphere of a game world.
Yes. Sort of. It's easily solvable, though, by setting and auctioning limited, variously-sized (from solitary shack to player-built city) parcels of land in a bigger world, as Horizons planned to do in the David Allen era. The benefits to player housing were massive (who doesn't want their own house or shop?), and it's an idea well worth revisiting and tweaking.


Skills I'll agree with though. Just a shame the ruined it with all the damage/resist types, over-powered artifacts etc.
Either my memory is failing, or you played some time after 1999. I remember a magic resist skill, which was "trained" by walking in a fire wall. Definitely no artifacts. Just some rare magic equipment that was hardly better than the GM-crafted equivalent.

Mouth of 10000 Teeth
09-06-2011, 09:39 PM
Yes. Sort of. It's easily solvable, though, by setting and auctioning limited, variously-sized (from solitary shack to player-built city) parcels of land in a bigger world, as Horizons planned to do in the David Allen era. The benefits to player housing were massive (who doesn't want their own house or shop?), and it's an idea well worth revisiting and tweaking.

Did you ever visit the expanded lands, though? They were just endless player homes covered in garish trinkets. I think Trammel pretty much filled up in days and then the extra areas added later did the same. I agree that some sort of land auction in specified areas - or even street-planned areas for developing entire PC-populated towns - would work. Proper player vendors and the eventually essential rune-libraries were great examples of user-controlled content and community projects. I suppose that thinking about it, the fair conclusion would be that housing in UO was 50% hugely progessive success and 50% game-wrecking catastrophe.


Either my memory is failing, or you played some time after 1999. I remember a magic resist skill, which was "trained" by walking in a fire wall. Definitely no artifacts. Just some rare magic equipment that was hardly better than the GM-crafted equivalent.I started playing around the time of UO The Second Age, either just before or just after. I continued playing fairly solidly until about 2003, by which point things had gone quite badly down hill. I then went back in about 2005/2006 for a jaunt and everything was so awful I couldn't stand it anymore. There were uber-bosses (think instances) that dropped l337ph4tl3wt, you could juggle equipment to essentially over-ride skills, purchase 'advanced' characters that started with higher skill allocations and all sorts of other stupidity. The only good thing that came from it was being able to effectively remove reagents, which made being a mage 10,000,000% less frustrating.

vinraith
09-06-2011, 09:58 PM
I read "Wizardry" and got genuinely excited, finally a proper hardcore RPG of this stripe one the PC... and then I read "MMO." Dammit, dammit, dammit, nevermind.

Wizardry
09-06-2011, 09:59 PM
I read "Wizardry" and got genuinely excited, finally a proper hardcore RPG of this stripe one the PC... and then I read "MMO." Dammit, dammit, dammit, nevermind.
There already are Wizardry games on the PC. The Wizardry series.

;)

vinraith
09-06-2011, 10:09 PM
There already are Wizardry games on the PC. The Wizardry series.

;)

You know what I mean! :) Unfortunately the older ones are getting harder and harder to make run. I do have a functional copy of 8 around here, but can't even seem to find VI and VII. Sounds like a job for GOG to me.

Anthile
09-06-2011, 10:11 PM
Yes, Wizardry is crazy popular in Japan for some reason and they made numerous spin-offs there with the latest title, Wizardry: Labyrinth of Lost Souls, coming out these days on PSN (it actually came out some some years ago but no export). It looks like this:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3664/5792837596_97ae4d0ef5.jpg

Hell, they even made a Wizardry anime based on the very first game, which is all kinds of baffling:

http://parttimeotaku.files.wordpress.com/2006/06/vlcsnap-1058095.jpg

Wizardry
09-06-2011, 10:15 PM
Ah! My eyes! Anime! Keep away from me!


You know what I mean! :) Unfortunately the older ones are getting harder and harder to make run. I do have a functional copy of 8 around here, but can't even seem to find VI and VII. Sounds like a job for GOG to me.
VI and VII are on abandonia. Easy to get. They work fine in DOSBox. Also, I can confirm that Wizardry 8 still works natively under Windows 7 x64.

vinraith
09-06-2011, 10:20 PM
Ah! My eyes! Anime! Keep away from me!


VI and VII are on abandonia. Easy to get. They work fine in DOSBox. Also, I can confirm that Wizardry 8 still works natively under Windows 7 x64.

Ah, was about to update to 7 here soon, so I'm glad to hear that VIII will still run. I could swear I'd searched for Wizardry on Abandonia awhile back and failed to turn up VI and VII, likely I'm just misremembering. I'll have a look, thanks!

Anthile
09-06-2011, 10:36 PM
Good luck playing Wizardry VI, though. It's one of the hardest RPGs ever made and an unoptimized party won't even make it through the first couple of rooms (not even joking). It hates you and it makes that fact perfectly clear to you from the very start. It's even harder than the Realms of Arkania games, if that means something to you.

vinraith
09-06-2011, 10:41 PM
Good luck playing Wizardry VI, though. It's one of the hardest RPGs ever made and an unoptimized party won't even make it through the first couple of rooms (not even joking). It hates you and it makes that fact perfectly clear to you from the very start. It's even harder than the Realms of Arkania games, if that means something to you.

Eeeeeexcellent. *tents hands*

Wizardry
09-06-2011, 10:57 PM
Eeeeeexcellent. *tents hands*
He/she's exaggerating. As long as you keep switching classes you'll be fine. It's still a hard game, though.

vinraith
09-06-2011, 11:01 PM
@Wizardry

Yeah, I kind of figured, but since I like my dungeon crawlers difficult I'm sure I'll enjoy it. It's not like Wizardry 8 was a walk on the beach, after all.

Wizardry
09-06-2011, 11:18 PM
It's not like Wizardry 8 was a walk on the beach, after all.
The start was. :D

vinraith
10-06-2011, 05:34 AM
The start was. :D

I'd like to think that, on some subconscious level, that was deliberate. :)

Vexing Vision
10-06-2011, 08:55 AM
I wouldn't pay a subscription for this. I certainly won't spend cash for items I might lose.

But damn, the concept does sound really intriguing. I'll definitely give it a run once it's Englishified. Anyone up for an exploration group?

Grizzly
10-06-2011, 10:39 AM
Wait a minute, isn't Wizardry a hardcore RPG that does not always takes things all to seriously, a bit like nethack? How can you make an Animé series out of that?

Anthile
10-06-2011, 10:43 AM
Wait a minute, isn't Wizardry a hardcore RPG that does not always takes things all to seriously, a bit like nethack? How can you make an Animé series out of that?

Wikipedia to the rescue!

"When Wizardry was first introduced in Japan, the lack of available information as well as a low quality of translation led to the game being far more seriously interpreted by Japanese players due to overlooking in-game jokes and parodies. For example, in early games Blade Cusinart was introduced as "a legendary sword made by the famous blacksmith, Cusinart" as Cuisinart and its food processors were virtually unknown in Japan and thus its meaning was misinterpreted. However, this misconception appealed to early computer gamers who were looking for something different and made the Wizardry series popular. Conversely, the fourth game, The Return of Werdna, was poorly received as lacking the knowledge of subcultures necessary to solving the game; Japanese players had no chance of figuring out some puzzles."

Izzmatazz
10-06-2011, 11:39 AM
Looks interesting but will likely turn into a griefers paradise/hell hole. Micro-transactions have knackered up MMO's. What the hell happened to grafting like crazy for your kit?

Harlander
10-06-2011, 11:59 AM
You graft like crazy in real life instead, to get the money to microbuy your kit.

8-bit
10-06-2011, 04:53 PM
I don't really think the perma death is that big of a deal given the reputation the games have for needing a full and proper party to progress, killing the people you are with in a dungeon just seems like shooting yourself in the foot. It could actually lead to interesting scenarios too, lets say you have two groups who suddenly meet in the middle of a dungeon, do they work together or stab each other in the back? It could create a real sense of tension beyond the simple annoyance of finding out you have some idiot in your party. As long as they keep the ideas in the article that its there is some sort of safe box back at your base, and that you will have an opportunity to get your body back if you die it should be fine.

I know that free to play and micro transactions have a bad reputation due to the low quality of most games but I for one refuse to pay a subscription fee for any game so this has me interested.

Moraven
15-01-2013, 09:02 PM
So, anyone try the beta at all?

Game launches in 15 days. Beta ended yesterday.

http://www.wizardrythegame.com/

The site is horrible to show anything about the game. (No gameplay videos, lack of screenshots, no class info etc). FAQ is outdated.

Feldspar
15-01-2013, 09:19 PM
Well, the video made it look like every action-y MMORPG ever and the soundtrack made it sound like my car after a bad day. The lack of info seems to point to it being one of those games that you hear is big in Asia but when you see it for yourself hardly makes it to 'meh' status.

Moraven
15-01-2013, 09:45 PM
True. Seems the trend for most Asian developed MMOs localized to english. Lineage 2, Aion, Tera some of the few that do get a big marketing push outside their popular regions. Most seem to have potential, but they all have some truly boring grinds to level by only kill mobs over and over.

DaftPunk
15-01-2013, 09:54 PM
This looks terrible.

QuantaCat
16-01-2013, 12:10 AM
wizardy wizardry wizardry! *draws a chalk door*

Please come and smite this stupidity!

johnki
16-01-2013, 12:19 AM
Good luck playing Wizardry VI, though. It's one of the hardest RPGs ever made and an unoptimized party won't even make it through the first couple of rooms (not even joking). It hates you and it makes that fact perfectly clear to you from the very start. It's even harder than the Realms of Arkania games, if that means something to you.
I always thought Wizardry IV was the hardest, right from the get-go, even, what with that ridiculously specific puzzle.

MeltdownInteractiveMedia
16-01-2013, 07:01 AM
Great stuff, the world needs more hardcore MMO's over all this carebear shit.

dnf
16-01-2013, 01:48 PM
Conversely, the fourth game, The Return of Werdna, was poorly received as lacking the knowledge of subcultures necessary to solving the game; Japanese players had no chance of figuring out some puzzles.
If western game devs tried to appeal to japanese gamers instead of western gamers, maybe the user Wizardry wouldn't bitch that much today about RPGs(assuming he could deal with animu characters).

sabrage
16-01-2013, 07:31 PM
If western game devs tried to appeal to japanese gamers instead of western gamers, maybe the user Wizardry wouldn't bitch that much today about RPGs(assuming he could deal with animu characters).
Wizardry doesn't bitch all that often anymore. His ire has reached such superhuman levels that he goes into months-long hate hibernation, where pristine visions of Gold Box RPGs are burned into the back of his eyelids, only emerging to shower disdain upon the RPS forums lest he reach critical mass and bomb a Bioware franchise.

Berzee
16-01-2013, 08:55 PM
months-long hate hibernation

I posit that he treats real life in a turn-based fashion. When he returns from weeks or months of idling, he is surprised to find that the world has moved along at the speed of real-time; this merely serves to make his fury stronger.

Peter Radiator Full Pig
16-01-2013, 09:20 PM
Silly question, but i cant seem to find the information i want. Are the Wizardry games turn based?

Berzee
16-01-2013, 09:43 PM
Silly question, but i cant seem to find the information i want. Are the Wizardry games turn based?

It's turn-based in this way: you select the actions of your 6 characters, and then the computer selects actions for all the monsters in the combat, and then it plays out action-by-action based on which combatants have the highest initiative (or something). Then you do another round of action-picking, and so on.

In other words: yes.

DaftPunk
16-01-2013, 10:58 PM
Did anyone even clicked on the link and saw the awful screenshots from game xD

sabrage
16-01-2013, 11:44 PM
What game? This is the dedicated Hardcore Wizardry topic.

internetonsetadd
17-01-2013, 04:14 AM
I like anime. I like Wizardry. Not sure I want them together, and not in an MMO.

I can tolerate art styles I don't much care for and other anime annoyances if a series/film/game makes up for it in other areas. I wasn't finding the Wizardry Online anime-ish look (generic lollipop fantasy vaguely reminiscent of Dragon Age) particularly offensive until this:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/244716/wizardry-uguu-cr.jpg

What are these little uguus supposed to be?

ImpishX
19-01-2013, 05:05 AM
I've played quite a few MMO's in my time, and very few have lived up to anything that they claim. So I doubt it'll be as good as it looks.

Enshadowed73
19-01-2013, 06:33 PM
I loved watching that Anime back in it's prime!

Splynter
30-01-2013, 10:51 PM
According to IGN this is now available. http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/01/30/wizardry-online-out-now
Anyone had a chance to give this a try?

Nalano
30-01-2013, 10:54 PM
Wizardry doesn't bitch all that often anymore. His ire has reached such superhuman levels that he goes into months-long hate hibernation, where pristine visions of Gold Box RPGs are burned into the back of his eyelids, only emerging to shower disdain upon the RPS forums lest he reach critical mass and bomb a Bioware franchise.
I posit that he treats real life in a turn-based fashion. When he returns from weeks or months of idling, he is surprised to find that the world has moved along at the speed of real-time; this merely serves to make his fury stronger.

How in the hell did I miss these awesome, awesome posts?

Rauten
30-01-2013, 10:55 PM
I've downloaded it for the hell of it, but can't create a character yet. I assume the servers are being hammered.

Cooper
31-01-2013, 02:42 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6Il8FYlq3M

Seems deathly dull.

johnki
31-01-2013, 03:45 AM
Pros:

- Action combat.

Cons:

- Same graphical fidelity as just about every other 3D MMO to come out in the last 5 or 6 years.
- Permadeath is handled in the stupidest manner. You die. Then you walk to a place you can rez. It then gives you the option to rez and your percent chance of dying permanently. If the roll lands on the wrong numbers, permadeath.
- Dungeons are public. Yes, they're public, meaning that each dungeon feels like a thinly-veiled attempt to not have to spend money on graphics, thus reusing 90% of them in every dungeon.
- You're given quests to kill 20 of this or 20 of that IN THE DUNGEON. It's a DUNGEON. And they want you to sit in ONE AREA and KILL THE SAME MOB REPEATEDLY.
- PvP seems relatively limited.
- Poor character customization.
- Limited class selection.
- Traps are meh. I don't remember exactly but I'm pretty sure most of them were obvious.
- Horrible, dull palette.
- YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO TOWN TO LEVEL UP. YES. WHEN YOU GET ENOUGH XP, YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO TOWN AND SLEEP.

Yeah, I didn't like it much.

sinister agent
31-01-2013, 03:50 AM
How in the hell did I miss these awesome, awesome posts?

I echo this sentiment. You are all very mean about Wizardry, and I insist on making a song and dance about how mean you are being so I can laugh long and hard about an unrelated funny remark I happened to think of for no reason just now.

Malawi Frontier Guard
31-01-2013, 04:58 AM
- Permadeath is handled in the stupidest manner. You die. Then you walk to a place you can rez. It then gives you the option to rez and your percent chance of dying permanently. If the roll lands on the wrong numbers, permadeath.

That does sound stupid. I'd much rather just die when I die, you know. This must be a F2P hook of some kind.

johnki
31-01-2013, 05:14 AM
That does sound stupid. I'd much rather just die when I die, you know. This must be a F2P hook of some kind.
Not really. AFAIK, there are items you can buy to avoid permadeath altogether (which could technically exist in ANY permadeath game) but nothing as ridiculous as lowering the chances of permadeath.

It's just an incredibly cheap way to handle permadeath.

Rauten
31-01-2013, 06:11 AM
Yeah went through the tutorial and, ugh... uninstall.
Couple of decent ideas, but it's very clear that this is a Western IP being developed by an Eastern team and they're struggling to come to terms with what should the game feel like, Western or Eastern. It ends up being a strange amalgamation that doesn't know what it wants to do or be.

Theblazeuk
31-01-2013, 05:10 PM
No. This is not Wizardry.

Heh. THEN WHO IS THIS

Tei
31-01-2013, 05:35 PM
Heh. THEN WHO IS THIS

http://i.imgur.com/0EaDMpq.png (http://lparchive.org/Wizardry-IV/Update%2015/)