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talimorrigan
07-01-2012, 01:50 AM
Yep, flight simulator as we know it now dead, died in January 2009. But today is officially dead with Flight.


FSX(Flight Simulator X) had the entire world, of course, not in full on detail on everything, but major airports had more detail, and only certain cities were done in full on detail. But you could expand with payware or freeware content, you could, for example, fly from say New York to Chicago and see all the airfields, and airports and cities, or say from London to Lisbon and have the same feeling, not an empty terrain devoid of anything, or just water.
Now, if we want to do that is not possible anymore, even if they release 5 new "terrains". No more community made planes as there is no SDK. This is speculative at this point: according to leaked videos(taken down by microsoft) and community comment from beta testers, it has no ATC nor AI

No thrid party developer with the same quality as say, LEvel-D or PMDG( http://www.precisionmanuals.com/)



The game will be free, and will offer more content to those that use the Games for Windows Live feature, and those willing to pay small fees for new aircraft, mission packs etc...

...The game will feature its own marketplace, with content regulated by Microsoft. There will be no software development kit and hence no user created content. ...

... At launch, not everyone will have the opportunity to fly where they are. The team has decided to not try and make the whole world this time. They feel that doing smaller areas at greater quality is more worth while. As such, the current game world is just the Island of Hawaii. ...
Source: http://flyawaysimulation.com/news/4317/microsoft-flight-behind-scenes-at-microsoft-studios/



Long story short, we spent a lot of time working with MS on white papers and looked at the code, gave them copies of all our products, told them how to do it right. They even used screenshots of our 1S2 Darrington in their mission dialog boxes, so they must have installed our scenery into Flight at some point, LOL!

About March 2010 everything went quiet despite promises of new builds. Later in 2010 we were told to go away, no SDK will be shipped.

Thanks MS, for all the fish.
From: Thread made by ORBX developer(Highly realistic scenery, one of the best in FSX)
http://forum.avsim.net/topic/358739-since-the-cat-is-out-of-the-bag/page__st__0
http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/41008-thoughts-on-ms-flight/



thread made by the big honcho of PMDG
PMDG: http://forum.avsim.net/topic/358874-some-thoughts-on-flight/

metalangel
07-01-2012, 02:31 AM
In the Beta so can't really say much, suffice it to say the response over on AVsim and Flightsim.com is almost universally unfavourable.

talimorrigan
07-01-2012, 04:02 AM
yeah... i was reading the flyaway article, as quite happy with what I was reading until I read "the game will be free..." ... I froze, and thought "... this does NOT bode well for FS... "
Guess what, my thought was right :(

LGM
07-01-2012, 05:31 AM
This is just another part of MS's plan to destroy PC gaming. IMO they will eventually start sending out "updates" to Windows that wreck games, DirectX, etc...

It's plainly obvious they want PC gaming gone, everything they've done over the last half decade has been essentially a kick in the nards to PC gamers. Windows 8 being a cross platform OS which is probably more focused on tablets will possibly be worse for gaming than Win 7.

GFWL = FAIL

MS Flight = massive FAIL - the flight sim community is the last people you want to mess with on the PC.

soldant
07-01-2012, 07:18 AM
In the Beta so can't really say much, suffice it to say the response over on AVsim and Flightsim.com is almost universally unfavourable.
I also am in the beta, but due to some screwup with my gamer tag, I can't actually play anything. So I'm already fairly unimpressed! As a fan of MS Flight Simulator, I'm pretty disappointed with the fact that it focuses on a tiny area of the world. I've preferred MSFS to X-Plane because X-Plane's presentation is sloppy, even if it is more realistic. X-Plane's user interface is a mess, and it's more focused towards people who want a hardcore simulation or designing aircraft, MSFS was better suited to being a game that you could play for enjoyment.

Long story short, pretty unhappy, guess my only option now is X-Plane 10.

metalangel
07-01-2012, 01:27 PM
If and when you manage to get it going, let me know.

fearlessgoat
07-01-2012, 02:15 PM
On the beta as well and while I am bound by the nda I can say a few things about it.

Its not a flight sim, its more like an old fashioned arcade game.
It looks like its going have a lot of dlc for different islands and flight paths.
It needs a gamer-tag with a gold subscription for on-line play( thought they stopped that with pc?)
Graphics are ok to good in places.
Sound is just awful, really awful, you will be turning the sound off with that annoying woman giving orders every few seconds ( talk about back seat drivers)

This may be inadvertently giving a glimpse of the game for windows live future, subscription based for on-line play, plus lots of dlc.

Grizzly
07-01-2012, 02:21 PM
it has no ATC nor AI

It is a beta.

Anyway, I don't really understand the complaining yet. Microsoft Flight is taking the route other flight sims like Take on Helicopters are doing. And no, it is not Flight Simulator XI. But Flight Simulator X itself is already extremely good. Why create a FSXI when you can instead do this and try to innovate?


This is just another part of MS's plan to destroy PC gaming. IMO they will eventually start sending out "updates" to Windows that wreck games, DirectX, etc...

It's plainly obvious they want PC gaming gone, everything they've done over the last half decade has been essentially a kick in the nards to PC gamers. Windows 8 being a cross platform OS which is probably more focused on tablets will possibly be worse for gaming than Win 7.

GFWL = FAIL

MS Flight = massive FAIL - the flight sim community is the last people you want to mess with on the PC.

1) If MS plan is to destroy PC gaming, why bother with Flight in the first place? Why release DX10 and DX11? Why make the XBOX 360 controller PC combatible? Your wording appears to suggest that Windows 7 was bad for gaming, but I haven't really noticed flaws with it. How would Windows 8 being more focussed on tablets ensure that PC gaming dies, especially since the Windows OS on PCs is Microsoft's major source of income (along with office)? They would be shooting themselves in the foot.

fearlessgoat
07-01-2012, 03:00 PM
It is a beta.

Anyway, I don't really understand the complaining yet. Microsoft Flight is taking the route other flight sims like Take on Helicopters are doing. And no, it is not Flight Simulator XI. But Flight Simulator X itself is already extremely good. Why create a FSXI when you can instead do this and try to innovate?



1) If MS plan is to destroy PC gaming, why bother with Flight in the first place? Why release DX10 and DX11? Why make the XBOX 360 controller PC combatible? Your wording appears to suggest that Windows 7 was bad for gaming, but I haven't really noticed flaws with it. How would Windows 8 being more focussed on tablets ensure that PC gaming dies, especially since the Windows OS on PCs is Microsoft's major source of income (along with office)? They would be shooting themselves in the foot.

Some good points there.

Having said that I disagree on windows 8, have it installed on another system to learn it for work ( do tec support and will need to know it well)
Windows 8 is very streamlined, to the point it feels like your on the xbox360. In fact boot up your xbox with the latest dashboard, look familiar?
It is still beta though so nobody knows for sure how it will turn out, right now it makes vista look like a god of an operating system.

Regarding pc gaming: Microsoft could do a lot more for pc gaming, maybe they will in the future but right now it feels like they do next to nothing. They try ideas out like aoe online, which is pretty good in my opinion. This latest flight sim could turn out to be very good, it is playable and I like it in places. Still it is beta so it is bound to change a lot. I for one hope they get rid of that annoying woman commentating and that is really my only gripe right now.

Regarding dx10 and 11. 10 was meant to be the next big thing. Vista brought it in and due to the operating system being not the best, it didnt really take off. Plus it alienated everyone on xp.
DX11 has a lot of cool features and while everyone goes on about tessellation there is a lot more to it than that, mostly its just far faster than dx10 at doing dx10 stuff.
I feel that microsoft are testing out the graphics tec on dx (pc) for there next console right now and with there neglect for pc gaming it may show on there next console.

dancanman
07-01-2012, 03:39 PM
On the beta as well and while I am bound by the nda I can say a few things about it.
Its not like "previous Microsoft" flight sims, its more like an old fashioned arcade game.
Fixed that for you.



It looks like its going have a lot of dlc for different islands and flight paths.
ok....


It needs a gamer-tag with a gold subscription for on-line play( thought they stopped that with pc?)
Absolutely 100% incorrect. You need a basic gamertag, similar to GTA IV. It's still just as big of pain in the ass as GTA IV too. But if your going to try and skirt an NDA, you might as well tell the truth.


Graphics are ok to good in places.
Without going into detail, on most levels, it's a regression from vanilla FSX.


Sound is just awful, really awful, you will be turning the sound off with that annoying woman giving orders every few seconds ( talk about back seat drivers)
And I was thinking how nice she was to me compared to the brutal flight instructors in flight simulator 98'. Oh well. I'm quite frankly not sure what you expected from tutorial missions. Believe it or not, once you get to free flight (which you can do at any time, btw), there's not more "annoying lady"


This may be inadvertently giving a glimpse of the game for windows live future, subscription based for on-line play, plus lots of dlc.
*rolls eyes*

Sorry for calling you out, but c'mon.

talimorrigan
07-01-2012, 03:44 PM
The problem is that FSX uses to generate the graphics the CPU instead of GPU, when they made FSX, they predicted we would be on the 10Ghz area, so it uses multicore processors quite badly. So much so that today there are still issues in running FSX well. Other problems include tons of bugs that never got corrected, and uses preview mode of DX10, so, lots more bugs on that.
Forgot to add: It also has issues using 64bits system, thanks to a community found fix it manages to work. It is horrible, in the middle of the flight, and you get "out of memory" message and CTD



We were expecting a more open product, and something that could solve, at least 50% of FSX problems. But instead, we got, that...

This is different from Take on Helicopters, because planes, by essence fly much further, and can be flown higher. Whilst Helicopters do not. They essentially fly lower, and short distances, so Take on Helicopters is right in creating a detailed city and stay there for a while.

I couldnt do a international flight or even a regional flight in MSF.

fearlessgoat
07-01-2012, 04:03 PM
Fixed that for you.



ok....


Absolutely 100% incorrect. You need a basic gamertag, similar to GTA IV. It's still just as big of pain in the ass as GTA IV too. But if your going to try and skirt an NDA, you might as well tell the truth.


Without going into detail, on most levels, it's a regression from vanilla FSX.


And I was thinking how nice she was to me compared to the brutal flight instructors in flight simulator 98'. Oh well. I'm quite frankly not sure what you expected from tutorial missions. Believe it or not, once you get to free flight (which you can do at any time, btw), there's not more "annoying lady"


*rolls eyes*

Sorry for calling you out, but c'mon.
Dont be sorry :D

Its just my opinion. Yes tried the free flight but had turned the sound off by that point so didn't know if she was talking or not.
I admire you defending this game and whilst you seem to be looking for points to be argumentative, it just isn't my thing. However I will stress that I was always a gold member for xbox live and it lapsed as I was playing funny enough, otherwise I wouldn't have noticed.
The game looks like it will have very heavy downloadable content packs, which isn't a bad thing if you want to fly around a certain location. That brings up my next point which is something you passed over, its an arcade game, not a sim. The voice acting also reflects this ( as far as I can tell as I turned it off during the tutorials). Also I must stress this is a beta not the full game, so god knows how it will turn out. For all I know I could be testing out the arcadey part of the game.
Finally it is a good game, if you want an arcade style flyer. If you want a sim, there's other, better stuff out there, including other entry's in that very series.

Feel free to fix any grammar errors btw ;)
For example I am not sure if arcadey is a real word, if not I have now invented it :P

dancanman
07-01-2012, 06:32 PM
re-reading my post, that came out way more argumentative than I meant it too, blah. Don't get me wrong, I'd much prefer a more stable version of FSX with higher max settings for monster rigs, but it seems microsoft is done with the hardcore crowd. The problem is, I really don't see flight sims as a good way to cater to the casual crowd, given the entry requirements (joystick, decent pc, etc) And to be honest, I don't know what they were thinking with some of their in-game decisions.

RE: XBL Weird, I was able to join and host, and i've never payed for live in my life.
So I'm not really disagreeing, just saying that anyone who honestly thought Microsoft was going to do another large-scope game was kidding themselves.

Grizzly
07-01-2012, 06:59 PM
Some good points there.

Having said that I disagree on windows 8, have it installed on another system to learn it for work ( do tec support and will need to know it well)
Windows 8 is very streamlined, to the point it feels like your on the xbox360. In fact boot up your xbox with the latest dashboard, look familiar?
It is still beta though so nobody knows for sure how it will turn out, right now it makes vista look like a god of an operating system.


Right. THere is one thing: The Windows 8 beta currently only includes their new interface. The retail version will contain the 'classic' (Win 7 with upgrades) interface as well.

I did not know much about the FSX problems... It was working quite well on my 64 bit win 7 rig last time I played it.

Also, it is worthy to note that apperently, the Flight Simulator sims were not really making a profit for microsoft (or indeed, they were not making any profit at all), but were purely made to push the limits.

talimorrigan
07-01-2012, 08:03 PM
As soon as you add some heavy addons, like say Coolsky's MD80, to PMDG MD11, you will get a OOM status :/

You need to be careful as well, when modding, because FSX is so sensitive that anything can cause it to crash, and finding the problem is really difficult!

Tams80
07-01-2012, 08:08 PM
AOE Online is a pretty good game, but the DLC is priced ridiculously and the way it has been implemented means you probably will want DLC pretty early on.

As for Windows 8? Well as it isn't even in beta yet, conclusions can't really be drawn. At the moment it is basically Windows 7 with the Metro interface thrown in and the more advanced system operations even more hidden.

Tei
07-01-2012, 09:30 PM
Why make the XBOX 360 controller PC combatible?

No. Why windows default controller is the XBox, and must be a XBox-like controller? I think is very mean for microsoft to push any other controller, and force XBox as the controller "we want". What If we want a generic one with more buttons, or maybe the PS3?. Microsoft abused of his position to force one controller over all the one possible. Even if you like or agree with his decission, is a abuse of position.

FuriKuri!
07-01-2012, 10:00 PM
I don't think that's quite true. They do push gamepad inputs being in the XBOX style (Green A, Red B, Blue X, Yellow Y button prompts for example) but there's nothing stopping a 3rd party controller making their buttons follow this convention.

I've played a few games which have XBOX prompts for buttons while using a PS3 pad (and the lack of out-of-the-box support for PC on PS3 pads is solely Sony's fault, not Microsoft's). I have absolutely nothing against some much needed standardisation for this sort of thing on PC. And if a game is lacking the option to rebind gamepad buttons then that's the fault of the game, not GfWL or Microsoft.

Capt. Eduardo del Mango
08-01-2012, 01:15 AM
Long story short, pretty unhappy, guess my only option now is X-Plane 10.

What about FSX?

I'm not sure about the finances and what the reasoning behind abandoning the FS series was, but if they had come out with FSXI I'm not sure anyone would have bought it. By FSX, the quality in playing the sim came entirely from add-ons - you basically throw out all the default content (and a good deal of the default mechanics). Unlike X-Plane where the engine works out everything from the physical model of the aircraft, most of an aircraft's flight dynamics are written into the aircraft itself - the game doesn't actually do an awful lot. If FSXI was released, would it have been worth everyone's while migrating all their content over to a marginal, incremental improvement of an engine when that engine doesn't actually do that much to the key content in the add-ons?

metalangel
08-01-2012, 02:18 AM
What about FSX?

I'm not sure about the finances and what the reasoning behind abandoning the FS series was, but if they had come out with FSXI I'm not sure anyone would have bought it. By FSX, the quality in playing the sim came entirely from add-ons - you basically throw out all the default content (and a good deal of the default mechanics). Unlike X-Plane where the engine works out everything from the physical model of the aircraft, most of an aircraft's flight dynamics are written into the aircraft itself - the game doesn't actually do an awful lot. If FSXI was released, would it have been worth everyone's while migrating all their content over to a marginal, incremental improvement of an engine when that engine doesn't actually do that much to the key content in the add-ons?

FSX was there to provide a solid framework. I bought Cardiff Airport as add-on scenery, everywhere else I depended on the included stuff. I felt like flying to Dubai - the included stuff let me. I feel like tackling VATSIM (which I haven't yet), they have a standard world with which to direct people in.

Apart from tweaking FSX to properly work with modern systems (and the accompanying performance boost), I don't know what more they could add, but they could sure refine it! Let us get out of the aircraft and walk around! Better ground vehicles at airports! Fight against the various (or even provide support for) the AI traffic addons!

Or they could just pull a Railworks and force everyone to update to a newer, crappier version using Steam... ;)

talimorrigan
08-01-2012, 02:58 AM
FSX was there to provide a solid framework. I bought Cardiff Airport as add-on scenery, everywhere else I depended on the included stuff. I felt like flying to Dubai - the included stuff let me. I feel like tackling VATSIM (which I haven't yet), they have a standard world with which to direct people in.




Apart from tweaking FSX to properly work with modern systems (and the accompanying performance boost), I don't know what more they could add, but they could sure refine it! Let us get out of the aircraft and walk around! Better ground vehicles at airports! Fight against the various (or even provide support for) the AI traffic addons!

Or they could just pull a Railworks and force everyone to update to a newer, crappier version using Steam... ;)


Well, they could have added cloud shadows, god rays, better management of icing conditions, engine heat blur, better cloud formation to form cumulus nimbus, quite a lot actually. Like runway bending, to better management of the graphics(as i stated above). There is always something to add, imagine clouds with tessellation? Better ATC, for example, for people like me who doesnt feel like using vatsim, would love if the ATC added us in a holding pattern for landing.

metalangel
08-01-2012, 04:53 AM
My experience is limited, but I've sure I've been put in pattern in the past thanks to an AI traffic package.

I don't deny that in the five years since FSX things have moved on... but apart from knocking the polycount up a notch I think there's something of a a wall.

soldant
08-01-2012, 06:55 AM
The problem is, I really don't see flight sims as a good way to cater to the casual crowd, given the entry requirements (joystick, decent pc, etc)
There's a lot to be said for a flight sim that makes the genre more accessible. Don't take that for "All flight sim games should be arcade and neutered" because it's possible to cater for both crowds. Strike Fighters 2 for example strikes a nice balance between arcade and hardcore. There's very little that sits in-between for these kinds of games. In the combat flight sim arena you're either stuck with old games, or you've got a choice between HAWX (too arcade) or the DCS games (far too hardcore, though the base learning curve isn't that hard). I'd bet that more people would be interested in something that introduced them to flight sims in a way that didn't require massive amounts of text reading or community members spouting jargon and acronyms every 5th word. Microsoft's flight simulators have gone a good way to staying within that middle ground, while most others just don't bother. I think it's a bit ridiculous that very few games ever scaled well to that happy medium where I'd bet most PC gamers would be interested in playing. We don't like it too arcade but too hardcore is a bit much. The hardcore flight simmers are in an obsessive, procedural arena, which few people want to bother to get into.


Right. THere is one thing: The Windows 8 beta currently only includes their new interface. The retail version will contain the 'classic' (Win 7 with upgrades) interface as well.
Not 100% sure about that, because there was a "desktop" mode in the Developer Preview (not beta) but it still replaced the Start menu. Going back to the classic Windows 7 desktop requires a registry hack. As far as I know it's going to stay that way.


What about FSX?
I have FSX but as others have mentioned it has issues and happens to be something of a relic from the DX9/DX10 transition era, where nothing really worked too well. Basically what I was hoping for from Microsoft Flight was an updated FSX, maybe with a better flight model. Until they sort out my beta access I'm only left with news floating around (since beta members aren't supposed to discuss anything with the public, like it says in the email we get!) to judge where the game is heading. It seems to me that Microsoft Flight is just a platform for content delivery, except this time Microsoft want control over it. It's hard to be optimistic and far too easy to approach with cynicism. We'll always have FSX but I was hoping for an overhaul.

Like I said, I'd swap to X-Plane 10 (and I might just end up doing that depending on what I see in the beta, because after all it'll be free and it's hard to bitch too much if it's free) but X-Plane's interface is an absolute mess and feels a lot less polished. I love the flight model though!

LGM
08-01-2012, 07:04 AM
1) If MS plan is to destroy PC gaming, why bother with Flight in the first place? Why release DX10 and DX11? Why make the XBOX 360 controller PC combatible? Your wording appears to suggest that Windows 7 was bad for gaming, but I haven't really noticed flaws with it. How would Windows 8 being more focussed on tablets ensure that PC gaming dies, especially since the Windows OS on PCs is Microsoft's major source of income (along with office)? They would be shooting themselves in the foot.

Why fail to release the many titles they publish on the 360 on PC? Why continue to force GFWL on gamers in the face of YEARS of the community saying they hate it? Why release Windows 8 when 7 has just gotten control of the market? Gamers LOVE Win 7, and I didn't mean to suggest 7 was bad for gaming, just that 8 could be worse what with it being a cross platform OS designed to operate weak touchscreen devices and play the horrible, horrible games that have inundated said platform. And putting Flight out for free, with the caveat that you have to use GFWL will get it on more people's computers, and of course they will hate it, and then in turn they may say "to hell with this" and go console after having to deal with GFWL's nonsense.

If MS listened to the PC gaming community and wanted to support the platform, they wouldn't have done what they have done over the last half decade.

soldant
08-01-2012, 07:23 AM
Why release Windows 8 when 7 has just gotten control of the market? Gamers LOVE Win 7, and I didn't mean to suggest 7 was bad for gaming, just that 8 could be worse what with it being a cross platform OS designed to operate weak touchscreen devices and play the horrible, horrible games that have inundated said platform.
Were you playing PC games back in the mid to early 2000s? Because if you were, you'd know that regular Windows releases were the normal cycle for Windows. That gap between Windows XP and Windows Vista was unusual and it wasn't intended. The 2 or so year gap was how it used to be, so it shouldn't come as any surprise that Windows 7 followed hot on the heels of Vista, and Windows 8 is following close behind Windows 7. Microsoft release an OS and expand upon in with subsequent versions; Vista set the groundwork, Win7 reaped the rewards, Win8 builds a new interface and apparently tries to unify the mobile and desktop interfaces.

As for cross platform: oh come on, you're making that up. The fact that Win8 looks to be more mobile-friendly does not suddenly mean that it'll become a platform dedicated solely to casual games. Fun fact: those same "horrible, horrible games" are already on the PC. And an even more interesting fact: a lot of the "awesome indie games" from the PC are also on devices like the iPad! Hell, GTA3 was migrated to iOS devices recently. It's still an x86-64 OS with all the desktop trappings, it just sports a new interface which seems to take its design from Windows 7 Phone GUIs. I'm not a huge fan of it, but by the same token it has nothing to do with the demise of PC gaming or anything ridiculous like that.

Also I think your point about MS Flight being free and GFWL being installed on every computer is grasping at straws. GFWL is pretty dodgy and I don't particularly approve of it, but it's not the worst one out there. You might as well have made the same arguments for Valve games and Steam: "Oh no they'll make people install Steam and people won't want that and they'll leave PC gaming forever!" A bit of perspective, please.

Really, the only valid point you've raised is that they're clinging to GFWL when the platform frequently doesn't work properly (my favourite GFWL trick is getting stuck in an update loop). The rest of it is useless speculation, and flawed speculation at that.

Grizzly
08-01-2012, 02:50 PM
If MS listened to the PC gaming community and wanted to support the platform, they wouldn't have done what they have done over the last half decade.

Actually, GFWL is an attempt to support the PC gaming platform after Microsoft abandoned it when the first XBOX happened. They realized their mistake, since the XBOX is apperently not very profitable (not as profitable as windows). The problem is just that GFWL is rather broken, and there are probably not all that much ways of fixing it without breaking backwards compatability. A pity too, that some GFWL ideas are not implemented (such as, instead of putting a long list of hardware in "System Requirements", using the Windows Performance Index (Win7s built in benchmark)

LGM
08-01-2012, 11:23 PM
Were you playing PC games back in the mid to early 2000s? Because if you were, you'd know that regular Windows releases were the normal cycle for Windows. That gap between Windows XP and Windows Vista was unusual and it wasn't intended. The 2 or so year gap was how it used to be, so it shouldn't come as any surprise that Windows 7 followed hot on the heels of Vista, and Windows 8 is following close behind Windows 7. Microsoft release an OS and expand upon in with subsequent versions; Vista set the groundwork, Win7 reaped the rewards, Win8 builds a new interface and apparently tries to unify the mobile and desktop interfaces.

As for cross platform: oh come on, you're making that up. The fact that Win8 looks to be more mobile-friendly does not suddenly mean that it'll become a platform dedicated solely to casual games. Fun fact: those same "horrible, horrible games" are already on the PC. And an even more interesting fact: a lot of the "awesome indie games" from the PC are also on devices like the iPad! Hell, GTA3 was migrated to iOS devices recently. It's still an x86-64 OS with all the desktop trappings, it just sports a new interface which seems to take its design from Windows 7 Phone GUIs. I'm not a huge fan of it, but by the same token it has nothing to do with the demise of PC gaming or anything ridiculous like that.

Also I think your point about MS Flight being free and GFWL being installed on every computer is grasping at straws. GFWL is pretty dodgy and I don't particularly approve of it, but it's not the worst one out there. You might as well have made the same arguments for Valve games and Steam: "Oh no they'll make people install Steam and people won't want that and they'll leave PC gaming forever!" A bit of perspective, please.

Really, the only valid point you've raised is that they're clinging to GFWL when the platform frequently doesn't work properly (my favourite GFWL trick is getting stuck in an update loop). The rest of it is useless speculation, and flawed speculation at that.

I don't care how many OS's they put out 12 years ago, it's not 12 years ago now. If they listened to consumers, they wouldn't be about to drop a new OS just 2.5 years after 7 came out as very few people actually want to upgrade. Read the comments sections of tech sites on articles about Win 8 and see for yourself.

As to GTA3, you just proved my point. The game looks atrocious on failPAD's and the big question, how does it play? has been answered in every preview I've read about that version. It's basically unplayable with the touch screen. Tablets are great for little games like Edge and stupid crap like Angry Birds, that's it.

Also, I remember what MS was saying when they released Win 7. Apparently a lot of people have forgotten. Microsoft said that their next OS after 7 would be a 128 bit OS, . Of course, tablets became trendy and they obviously dumped their awesome plans and jumped all over what was hot instead of making actual progress in computing.

(see here: http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/10/microsoft-mulling-128-bit-versions-of-windows-8-windows-9.ars )

So what happened? Weak ass tablets, that's what.

Obviously Flight is only free so they can get people to install GFWL. It couldn't be more obvious. Which of course proves that they don't listen to the gaming community at all, see my previous argument.

LGM
08-01-2012, 11:27 PM
Actually, GFWL is an attempt to support the PC gaming platform after Microsoft abandoned it when the first XBOX happened. They realized their mistake, since the XBOX is apperently not very profitable (not as profitable as windows). The problem is just that GFWL is rather broken, and there are probably not all that much ways of fixing it without breaking backwards compatability. A pity too, that some GFWL ideas are not implemented (such as, instead of putting a long list of hardware in "System Requirements", using the Windows Performance Index (Win7s built in benchmark)

The Xbox systems were not profitable at first, but now you can bet that MS is making money off the 360. Most likely the main reason they've let the system live for about 2 years longer than it should have, and why it's another 1-2 years before they release a new system, which will of course be a disaster of motion controls, touchscreens, and weak performance lol.

soldant
09-01-2012, 05:08 AM
I don't care how many OS's they put out 12 years ago, it's not 12 years ago now. If they listened to consumers, they wouldn't be about to drop a new OS just 2.5 years after 7 came out as very few people actually want to upgrade. Read the comments sections of tech sites on articles about Win 8 and see for yourself.
What, that kids who grew up with WinXP didn't want to change? Oh no, change! Stop the friggin' cart! XP was an old, outdated platform with an insane amount of stuff bolted onto it. We NEEDED to move to a new platform, and thankfully Microsoft dragged everyone (some kicking and screaming) into the future. The "comments" on tech sites are all based on the Dev Build or on unsubstantiated rumours. I've used the Dev Build enough to pick out what's unfounded nonsense and what has valid merit.

EDIT: The point being that much of this nonsense about "It's not 12 years ago!" was constructed by people (mostly kids) who never knew anything different than Windows XP. It was good when Windows got 2 yearly refreshes or there-abouts; it kept the system fresh and kept tech rolling. The rapid advancement in the late 90s relied on this kind of support and dedication. WinXP just sat there for ages, which was entirely unintended, and didn't become a decent operating system until SP2. By then though the platform was showing its age and desperately needed an overhaul. Hell just look at that joke they called WinXP x64. Nobody in their right mind used it. All of the opposition to Win8 centres around the new Metro interface and loss of the Start menu. Protip - everyone in Win7 uses the Search box in the Start menu and never touches All Programs. The new Metro UI supports the EXACT SAME FEATURE. Forget the faster boot times, better hardware support, and all that stuff! The interface has changed, BOYCOTT OMFG AND BLAME THE TABLETS!!1one.


As to GTA3, you just proved my point. The game looks atrocious on failPAD's and the big question, how does it play? has been answered in every preview I've read about that version. It's basically unplayable with the touch screen. Tablets are great for little games like Edge and stupid crap like Angry Birds, that's it.
"I've read about something therefore I know everything about it and nothing else could possibly be true."


Also, I remember what MS was saying when they released Win 7. Apparently a lot of people have forgotten. Microsoft said that their next OS after 7 would be a 128 bit OS, . Of course, tablets became trendy and they obviously dumped their awesome plans and jumped all over what was hot instead of making actual progress in computing.
And the processor support for this was... where? Oh right, just backwards compatible stuff. I see. Also read your own article: they NEVER said that Win8 would be 128bit, they only said that they were researching the possibility of a 128bit OS made backwards compatible with x64 architectures for Win8 or Win9. It was never planned to be that way. As for "What happened?" how about "No real tangible benefit"? x64 operating systems still haven't achieved absolute dominance and x86 is yet to be retired, so there's no benefit at all in moving up to 128bit. Why bother trying to shoe-horn that in? Hell that entire article hinges on that LinkedIn profile being accurate, which it might not be. Did you even bother to read your own source? Clearly not, apparently it's easier to just say "Weak ass tablets cause all problems". Which is a bit like saying "Consoles cause all gaming problems" and just as ignorant. Clearly you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to Windows, or Microsoft. Just a load of baseless speculation.


Obviously Flight is only free so they can get people to install GFWL. It couldn't be more obvious. Which of course proves that they don't listen to the gaming community at all, see my previous argument.
The flight sim arena is a niche area. Microsoft are guilty of not listening to the flight sim community. Valve didn't listen when people said they didn't want Steam when the first introduced it, now people are willing to lay down their lives for it. GFWL isn't a good platform but offering a niche title for free isn't the same as forcing it with a major game like Dawn of War 2 for no good reason, so your argument doesn't hold water at all.

metalangel
09-01-2012, 07:43 AM
I can confirm that GTA3 is borderline unplayable on the iPhone. For what it's worth, I also have Real Racing and X-Plane for iOS and they're both playable sims but are also seriously compromised to suit touchscreen controls. Simutrans is also available and no attempt to optimize the interface has been made, so all the buttons are tiny!

/tangent

Grizzly
09-01-2012, 07:46 AM
Obviously Flight is only free so they can get people to install GFWL. It couldn't be more obvious. Which of course proves that they don't listen to the gaming community at all, see my previous argument.

If they wanted everyone to install GFWL, they would have included it in Windows itself. Nah. Microsoft Flight is using the play for free model because it works for slightly more niche games like this. Play for free games are the new demos. Microsoft is obviously trying to attract a new audience of 'non hardcore' gamers who liked flying but did not want to dedicate all this time to master FSX or X-Plane. I think this is a good thing, because the market needs games like that in order to advance the genre.

metalangel
09-01-2012, 07:48 AM
The only barrier for entry to Flight Simulator has always been whether or not it interested you in the first place. Making it free (FSX had a demo, remember) won't suddenly make people interested if they weren't already.

Grizzly
09-01-2012, 08:03 AM
The only barrier for entry to Flight Simulator has always been whether or not it interested you in the first place. Making it free (FSX had a demo, remember) won't suddenly make people interested if they weren't already.

Mabye, mabye not. The F2P model has been used to some great profit by other companies, so I geuss MS is testing the waters with Flight.

Damn! I want to discuss a few finer points, but I can't... Gotta hate that NDA.

soldant
09-01-2012, 08:06 AM
I can confirm that GTA3 is borderline unplayable on the iPhone. For what it's worth, I also have Real Racing and X-Plane for iOS and they're both playable sims but are also seriously compromised to suit touchscreen controls. Simutrans is also available and no attempt to optimize the interface has been made, so all the buttons are tiny!

/tangent
Alternatively, support arises for peripherals. Oh wow, suddenly, the control issue is resolved! Back when consoles used digital D-Pads aiming was ridiculously difficult. Hell playing Half Life with just a keyboard was difficulty. But we adapted to it. Touch screens aren't good for games like Doom or GTA3 but that doesn't mean the platform has no merit at all because of it, nor does it suddenly mean that gaming or desktop computing is about to die. LGM is making nonsense up.



Regarding Flight (Thanks again Grizzly for the tip!), without saying too much I think Microsoft looked at how FSX was basically used as a platform for content addons and decided to just follow that path. As people have said third party developers were told a while ago that there wouldn't be an SDK for Flight, which has upset a large portion of the community. I mean X-Plane 9 and 10 need extensive third party support too, so I guess whether or not Flight survives depends on if MS open it up for third party devs or produce high quality content at a decent price point.

metalangel
09-01-2012, 08:13 AM
@soldant: the problem is more trying to adapt a game designed for a controller with two analog sticks, one dpad and 12 buttons to one with one analog and what amounts to one pressable button at a time.

@Grizzly: we need a secret lair where those of us in the beta can talk about it away from prying eyes.

soldant
09-01-2012, 08:44 AM
@soldant: the problem is more trying to adapt a game designed for a controller with two analog sticks, one dpad and 12 buttons to one with one analog and what amounts to one pressable button at a time.
The game wasn't adapted though, the control scheme was. Doom for example is still Doom on the iPhone, it just uses a largely ineffective touchscreen thing. LGM's comments are less about controls and more about tablets somehow killing the PC or some silly nonsense.


As for beta talk: isn't there some community or something set up to discuss it? I know on a particular aviation sim forum plenty of people have basically wiped their backsides with the NDA...

IDtenT
09-01-2012, 09:05 AM
The hate is strong.

Heliocentric
09-01-2012, 09:08 AM
Someone needs to make a google earth flights sim. Fly low enough and get street view.

Grizzly
09-01-2012, 09:41 AM
The official Microsoft Flight website (the second link you get in the email) has a discussion forum btw.

Megagun
09-01-2012, 11:37 AM
Also, I remember what MS was saying when they released Win 7. Apparently a lot of people have forgotten. Microsoft said that their next OS after 7 would be a 128 bit OS, . Of course, tablets became trendy and they obviously dumped their awesome plans and jumped all over what was hot instead of making actual progress in computing.

So what happened? Weak ass tablets, that's what.
If they were actively aiming for a 128-bit OS and dropped it, I don't think "weak-ass tablets" were the reason for the drop. The reason for the drop was probably that a 128-bit OS would be an insanely stupid idea anyways, as there is absolutely no reason why you'd want a 128-bit OS, especially a consumer-oriŽnted one. Unless you happen to have a desktop PC with more than 17179869184 gigabytes of RAM / harddrive space.

LGM
09-01-2012, 01:51 PM
Clearly you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to Windows, or Microsoft. Just a load of baseless speculation.

What's baseless about the fact that we don't need a new OS yet? We've barely scratched the surface of the possibilities with current hardware and DX11, an example. And yes, it is consoles fault, absolutely the fault of the consoles, the focus on those has shifted work away from pc gaming. Not an ignorant thing to say, just fact. Tablets are doing the same thing, to an extent, already. It is a profitable venue for developers, as people just love buying apps and silly little time wasting games. Look at Redlynx turning their backs on the pc and only working on console and MOB games (and a wii game - why? lol)

I have no problem moving up to a new OS within say a 3-4 year time period, but it has to be necessary, it can't just be because it exists. And I DO believe we will see issues with 8 due to it's cross platform nature. Time will tell, I suppose.

In regards to GFWL, it's now been around for 4-5 years and it's not gotten any better. Steam made it because Valve launched it in the face of derision and listened to what people were saying and made the changes necessary to turn it into something that people would actually want to use. Microsoft hasn't done that, so I don't see why anybody would defend them in any way in regards to GFWL. They're not listening to you, me, and everybody else out there. They don't care what we say, they're not even trying. Every time they say it's gonna get better, it just gets weirder.

Don't get me wrong though, I have a lot of respect for Msoft. They're obviously responsible for where we are today in PC gaming. If it hadn't been for Windows as a platform for gaming on PC's, who knows what we'd be playing on our computer boxes. They rule the roost when it comes to operating systems and I think the cross platform nature of Win 8 is just a misstep.

Also, the controllers that can be used with touch devices are welcome, but really, it's just another thing to carry around. If you wanna play games on the go, a psp costs like 50 bux now for a used one from EB, and the 3ds is like 150 bux. No extra controller to carry around, and all the games play properly (well, except for some PSP games! lol!)

LGM
09-01-2012, 01:53 PM
If they were actively aiming for a 128-bit OS and dropped it, I don't think "weak-ass tablets" were the reason for the drop. The reason for the drop was probably that a 128-bit OS would be an insanely stupid idea anyways, as there is absolutely no reason why you'd want a 128-bit OS, especially a consumer-oriŽnted one. Unless you happen to have a desktop PC with more than 17179869184 gigabytes of RAM / harddrive space.
Fair enough. I just thought it sounded amazing back 2009 when all the tech sites were aflutter with word of 128 bit OS. Kind of pointless indeed, as we still have very few games that run in 64 bit.

Prodirus
09-01-2012, 01:59 PM
If they were actively aiming for a 128-bit OS and dropped it, I don't think "weak-ass tablets" were the reason for the drop. The reason for the drop was probably that a 128-bit OS would be an insanely stupid idea anyways, as there is absolutely no reason why you'd want a 128-bit OS, especially a consumer-oriŽnted one. Unless you happen to have a desktop PC with more than 17179869184 gigabytes of RAM / harddrive space.

Not to mention the inevitable compatibility issues with 32-bit/64-bit programs.

soldant
09-01-2012, 02:33 PM
What's baseless about the fact that we don't need a new OS yet? We've barely scratched the surface of the possibilities with current hardware and DX11, an example.
There's more to an OS than just DX11...


And yes, it is consoles fault, absolutely the fault of the consoles, the focus on those has shifted work away from pc gaming. Not an ignorant thing to say, just fact.
Blame the public for adopting consoles. Let's see, people wanted a cheap, easy to maintain way to get into gaming. Consoles came in to fill that gap. Devs naturally moved to the platform because people use it. Shock, horror! Devs that make lazy PC ports should be crucified for it, but that's not the fault of the consoles. You can't cry when a platform rises in popularity and developers flock to it. They're out to turn a profit, after all.


I have no problem moving up to a new OS within say a 3-4 year time period, but it has to be necessary, it can't just be because it exists. And I DO believe we will see issues with 8 due to it's cross platform nature. Time will tell, I suppose.
The ARM build will be separate form the x86-64 and IA-32 builds. The only issues you might see are with the Metro interface ultimately being designed for touchscreens, though from using it in the Developer Preview it's not as bad as most people make it out to be. ARM architecture and x86-64 are entirely different and don't compare, it's not a true "cross platform" thing. The version that will run on ARM processors is not the same as the one that will run on your desktop. The UI will be similar in most respects, but the x86/64 stuff won't run on the ARM systems. The x86-64 build is not something cobbled together and designed for a mobile processor. The only real "unification" between the mobile and desktop area would be the Metro UI and some of the services provided. And that's it.

I think you need to read up a bit more about Windows 8 because you seem to be under some sort of impression that it's built primarily for ARM devices and somehow ported to desktop-class architectures. This isn't the case. Really the only issue is the Metro UI. There are no other compatibility issues arising from the fact that Win8 will have a kernel that supports ARM processors. Think of it like having to have a build for 32bit and 64bit; it's entirely separate. All you really need to worry about is the interface. And really, if Microsoft produce an OS that works better than iOS on a tablet device, then hell I welcome the changes. I'm sure most people would be delighted to have a mobile device that works in a similar fashion to their desktop device, one that isn't controlled by Apple and their walled garden.


Steam made it because Valve launched it in the face of derision and listened to what people were saying and made the changes necessary to turn it into something that people would actually want to use.
Valve didn't listen. If they did, they would have wiped it out early on in its lifespan. Nobody wanted Steam in its infancy. Nobody. There was a great deal of backlash around the time of HL2's release because Steam prevented people from playing the game due to various service issues. Steam's near-ecclesiastical following has only happened in very recent times due to the massive number of sales they now run. Prior to that, it was terrible.


Also, the controllers that can be used with touch devices are welcome, but really, it's just another thing to carry around. If you wanna play games on the go, a psp costs like 50 bux now for a used one from EB, and the 3ds is like 150 bux. No extra controller to carry around, and all the games play properly (well, except for some PSP games! lol!)
Portable gaming consoles are killing gaming! They're going to make us swap to using thumbsticks! Rage, rabble, blame! Your exact same argument can apply to something you're now apparently promoting. There's no difference, except that a tablet does a hell of a lot more than a PSP.

LGM
10-01-2012, 12:06 AM
Did I pee in your cornflakes? I swear I didn't know that was your bowl of cereal!

Seriously though, you seem to be extremely against anything I say, so much so that you're actually defending MS and their idiotic GFWL and the horrible horrible landfill-filling tablets, so clearly there's no rational discussion to be had with you. Oh, and Valve did indeed listen, you are very wrong.

Grizzly
10-01-2012, 07:18 AM
Really the only issue is the Metro UI.

Which, as a side note, can be disabled, according to Microsoft.


Did I pee in your cornflakes? I swear I didn't know that was your bowl of cereal!

Seriously though, you seem to be extremely against anything I say, so much so that you're actually defending MS and their idiotic GFWL and the horrible horrible landfill-filling tablets, so clearly there's no rational discussion to be had with you.

Eh. Self reflection mean anything to you?


Oh, and Valve did indeed listen, you are very wrong.

How did Valve listen, exactly?

soldant
10-01-2012, 08:47 AM
Did I pee in your cornflakes? I swear I didn't know that was your bowl of cereal!

Seriously though, you seem to be extremely against anything I say, so much so that you're actually defending MS and their idiotic GFWL and the horrible horrible landfill-filling tablets, so clearly there's no rational discussion to be had with you. Oh, and Valve did indeed listen, you are very wrong.
I'm not defending GFWL, in fact I'm not a fan of it. But most of what you're saying is either baseless speculation (extremely baseless) or contradicts established fact. You remind me of all the militant anti-Microsoft kids who threaten to switch to Linux and spread FUD without sources. Things like "Windows 8 will suck because it was made for tablets" are entirely incorrect. Hell you quoted a source for that 128-bit nonsense which contradicted what you wrote! You call me irrational, yet you're trying to claim there's some link between Windows 8 and tablets and compatibility issues which don't exist and can't exist because the ARM version is separate. And I'm irrational?

As for "Valve did indeed listen" - no they didn't. Nobody wanted Steam when it first came out, just like nobody wants Origin now. Steam didn't stop sucking until about the time of The Orange Box release. The "No Steam No Sale" thing is even more recent, within the last year or so. When it comes to Steam, Valve didn't really listen at all. They just did something and we all had to like it. Natural service improvement (as in infrastructure to support the network) is not "listening to customers", it's simple expansion over time.

Heliocentric
10-01-2012, 09:10 AM
So, microsoft flight eh guys? I'll learn to take off, try and crash into big ben/the white House (hi MI5/NSA) and then un install it when it tells me landing requires dlc.

Who is with me?

soldant
10-01-2012, 10:23 AM
So, microsoft flight eh guys? I'll learn to take off, try and crash into big ben/the white House (hi MI5/NSA) and then un install it when it tells me landing requires dlc.

Who is with me?
You'll need the Big British Adventure and Wings Over America DLC to do any of that.

Grizzly
10-01-2012, 03:40 PM
You can, however, dive headfirst into the Hawaiian vulcano.