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whatIsGoingOn
08-01-2012, 01:45 AM
I've been reading RPS for nearly two years now. New articles came a bit slow, but most of them were worth it, even the ones about very unusual games. Actually, those were often the best. Articles were quite elaborate and even pure browser games turned into spectacles and long running series. It felt like a little group of gamers writing about their avocation. Recognisable, always trying to be ahead of each other.

But these days that is hardly the case anymore.
Two days ago I was completely baffled at how many articles were published that day. Fifteen!
Though acceptable in general they lack anything that made this site special. Most of what was written could be found on any other gaming news site. In some cases even in a way that is much more readable.
Articles like Steam Wants You To Look At Its Muscles (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/01/06/steam-wants-you-to-look-at-its-muscles/) just seem so unnecessary and written in a way that makes me think "Am I missing some kind of inside joke?".
The only article I've enjoyed this week was The Flare Path: Tomcas, Tigers & Treason (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/01/06/the-flare-path-tomcats-tigers-treason/). But I admit, I wouldn't even have read it if there wasn't the picture of a flight sim. The first paragraph, the one visible on the page itself is just...
To quote it:

Tomorrow morning at daybreak, the Flare Path is being executed for treason. His nosey neighbour, Mr Geoff Himmler, spotted him placing 2p coins on the railway line at the bottom of the garden, and informed the authorities. The next thing FP knew, he was sat in a dingy cell in the Tower of London with nothing but a laptop, a tin of alphabetti spaghetti, and a Dangerous Waters manual for company. After reading the alphabetti spaghetti and eating the Dangerous Waters manual, the condemned man has decided to spend his final hours sharing Achtung Panzer tips and disseminating news of upcoming train, bus, and jet sims.

Reading it I thought "What the hell is this guy talking about? What the hell is this article about and who the devil is Flare Path, Mr Geoff Himmler and why should I care about any of them?".

I'm sorry. Maybe gaming is slow in general at the moment. Maybe I'm just fed up with this artsy fartsy style of writing.
But for me most of what is published these days seems like the product of a small army of minions, each one of them trying to outshine the other in terms of crazyness.
Were are the articles with a twist? Long series were RPS authors try to outsmart each other. Mostly failing, sometimes diplomacy at its best.

I can't be the only one who is a bit dissapointed by RPS over the last few months?

DigitalSignalX
08-01-2012, 06:54 AM
My only complaint would be the increasing number of "announcement about an announcement" type of articles. RPS used to not pile on to the PR Hype machine and do content for the sake of content that this sort of thing strikes me as. Otherwise, the writing is still superior, even on fluff pieces. People, games, and sites all evolve I suppose, as long as RPS continues to be more mature and better composed, they'll be #1 in my book despite the changes.

Wooly Wugga Wugga
08-01-2012, 08:11 AM
You've got to accept that RPS isn't the site it was. It is now more of a well written news aggregation site than anything else and you can't blame them because it is probably the most profitable format and they have rent to pay.

Having said that the way you consume the site has to change since the basic Wordpress blog template is horribly ill-suited to the new format of the site (They should see what theregister.co.uk has done in terms of format. Unfortunately they won't be able to use 50% of the screen for ad coverage with that.).

The RSS reader is now your primary means of navigating the site. Instead of compulsively reading everything on the front page just read the two or three news articles that interest you from the feed. Stories disappear so quickly from the front page that commenting isn't as good as a story stays in the spotlight for a few hours.

It is sad that the old articles posted during the holidays were probably the best items posted on RPS this year other than the 1994 and April 1st posts.

Nova
08-01-2012, 10:14 AM
I've criticized the development of RPS myself, but if you mean the likes of Gameboys in Hell by "long series were RPS authors try to outsmart each other". Well, I'm pretty sure there were only two pieces like that. One about Solium Infernum and the other about Neptunes Pride.

deano2099
11-01-2012, 01:04 PM
They do news now, in addition to the features/reviews and everything else. That's all really. Takes a bit more effort to find the good stuff that's true (although by 'effort' just looking at the 'read our finest words' bit seems to work).

The Tupper
15-01-2012, 03:30 AM
Wow. The internet's a cold, harsh place.

Kadayi
15-01-2012, 11:26 AM
I agree with the OP and I also with Wuggas comment. Personally I don't have a problem with RPS being a news site with the occasional article and interview thrown into the mix. However I do wish they'd stop taking any old shit posted up at Reddit as a given and do some fact checking before posting it up on RPS. The whole 'Valve giving refunds on From Dust' and 'be afraid Origin is spyware' headlines were particularly egregious examples from last year of spreading disinformation and inciting rampant fear mongering amongst the sites readership that were devoid of much 'fact' at the end of the day. If you are going to be a news site, model yourself after the BBC not Fox. The gaming world is built on Chinese whispers enough already without RPS contributing to the BS spreading.

Alex Bakke
15-01-2012, 09:58 PM
The only article I've enjoyed this week was The Flare Path: Tomcas, Tigers & Treason (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/01/06/the-flare-path-tomcats-tigers-treason/). But I admit, I wouldn't even have read it if there wasn't the picture of a flight sim. The first paragraph, the one visible on the page itself is just...
To quote it:


Tomorrow morning at daybreak, the Flare Path is being executed for treason. His nosey neighbour, Mr Geoff Himmler, spotted him placing 2p coins on the railway line at the bottom of the garden, and informed the authorities. The next thing FP knew, he was sat in a dingy cell in the Tower of London with nothing but a laptop, a tin of alphabetti spaghetti, and a Dangerous Waters manual for company. After reading the alphabetti spaghetti and eating the Dangerous Waters manual, the condemned man has decided to spend his final hours sharing Achtung Panzer tips and disseminating news of upcoming train, bus, and jet sims.

Reading it I thought "What the hell is this guy talking about? What the hell is this article about and who the devil is Flare Path, Mr Geoff Himmler and why should I care about any of them?".



Tim Stone Defence Force Activate!

I found that passage hilarious to read, as it taps in to lots of jokes that are funny if you're British.

(If you're British, shame on you! :P)

lhzr
16-01-2012, 11:59 AM
Wow. The internet's a cold, harsh place.
uh, well.. thing is they're kinda right. i'd guess that most rps'ers are too polite to say anything, but the rps as it is now ain't the one i dropped most other gaming sites for when i started coming here some years ago.

i don't read rps for the news, which i already know from every other site by the time it gets to rps, nor for the hardware articles, nor for the sensationalist kotaku/destructoid style of stuff. i come for lighthearted articles about various sorts of nonsense, for the game diaries, for the indie games and for the humour. and i feel that all of these things i like have been kinda under-represented for a while now, in favour of other stuff. other stuff that probably gets them more clicks. i get that, but that doesn't mean i have to like it.

perhaps they could do what eurogamer did and hire a news guy that could take care of most posts, so the rps core could focus on fewer and better articles?

Unaco
16-01-2012, 02:57 PM
Sadly, yes. The volume of Churnalism with a thin veneer of opinion attached is quite disgusting as of late. The Hivemind probably can't win though... if they run with all of these press releases and announcements of announcements at the like, people complain about the Churnalism, the lack of well written pieces and so on. If RPS doesn't run a story on a press release or announcement, people pop up in the comments sections and in the forums demanding that RPS cover this or that, or decrying RPS for their obvious bias in not covering this or that... Then, RPS do cover this or that, but not in the way the people wanted (see that 4-chan ungame nonsense from last week for an example), so the people complain.

Auspex
16-01-2012, 06:23 PM
Maybe you guys would be happier with RPS if you started visiting www.rockpapershotgun.com/category/featured-articles/

Rossignol
16-01-2012, 06:54 PM
This thread comes up every six months or so. Do we really take a "new direction" towards tabloid bloggery every six months? I suspect not. The site isn't a lot different to how it was two years ago, it's just that there is more content, both news and articles.

Also, if you don't get Tim Stone, I pity you. He is my favourite writer on RPS.

John Walker
16-01-2012, 07:02 PM
While people are of course entitled to think RPS has gone wrong in any direction they please, it's important to note that the site is currently posting FAR more feature content than it ever has at any point in its existence.

The articles you claim we lack - we have them more than we ever have. And the news you say is clogging the site? We've always had it. The thing is, when you remember the past, you remember the bits you liked about it. So when you think about RPS in 2010, you think about the features you loved the best, and forget the churn of daily news that came between. There are now more posts than there were before, because we've more writers, and we work harder, but everything has increased proportionally.

I promise that in two years you'll all be complaining that RPS is nothing like it was in its 2012 glory days, because by then you'll have forgotten we posted those screenshots, and only remembered the awesome features.

Also, and I think this is enormously crucial, the news posts are all bloody brilliant too. You may not care about the content (although someone else will - we don't write the site for one person) but you may possibly still enjoy the writing, jokes and usual RPS nonsense therein.

Wooly Wugga Wugga
16-01-2012, 07:35 PM
Hi, is there any way to update the layout of the site to make it more suited to the amount of content that gets posted?

Rossignol
16-01-2012, 07:42 PM
As ever, we will slowly tweak the layout, rather than any major overhaul. There will be some changes in the coming months.

JayTee
16-01-2012, 08:38 PM
I'm sorry. Maybe gaming is slow in general at the moment. Maybe I'm just fed up with this artsy fartsy style of writing.
But for me most of what is published these days seems like the product of a small army of minions, each one of them trying to outshine the other in terms of crazyness.It is January, a traditionally quiet period in gaming after the post-festive-period-rush.

I admit I've only been an active rps reader for approximately 18 months, but I can't really say the site has changed much in terms of quality, style, or quantity in that time. Meh.

Nova
16-01-2012, 08:58 PM
Favorable view of the past probably factors in, but I don't complain about that every six months. I have never complained about it before, and I read RPS regularly since around 2008. I tie it specifically to the time "RPS took off" around the time EG started doing the ads for RPS.

Where there "news" like Minecraft Is In Dire Straits (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/01/16/minecraft-is-in-dire-straits/) 1-2 years ago?

I just wonder if the increasing coverage of as much as possible is even necessary. As I wrote in another thread, didn't RPS get big without it? Wouldn't more coverage of what made you what you are better instead of more news?

Auspex
16-01-2012, 09:14 PM
I've found the more worrying change in RPS to be the shift towards being more negative and angry; this is also reflected in the comments which I'm considering no longer reading. I asked Jim about this a while ago on his formspring and he gave a very good and thorough answer but one which sadly didn't make me feel any better.

http://www.formspring.me/JimRossignol/q/263806574189876975 for those interested.

DigitalSignalX
16-01-2012, 09:31 PM
So the inevitable "more popular means lower intellectual denominator" wave is breaking upon us? On behalf of all self-righteous, hot-headed, sub-par intellectuals with too much time on their hands, I say try harder! Make me want to be a better reader. mk Brah?

Jacques
16-01-2012, 09:46 PM
I just wish there were more game diaries and proper original content that wasn't just a press release with a bit of RPS spin on it, or John beating his chest about something or other (sorry John, some of your stuff is great, but you're the RPS writer I love to hate the most!).


In terms of more posts, we're getting about 1/3 more content now than we were in '08, so we're definitely seeing more. A simple site redesign could improve things a lot though, and stop articles falling off the front page too quickly.

yutt
16-01-2012, 10:56 PM
Why doesn't everyone stop "remembering" how great it used to be, and just look at how it used to be. Here you go, it's all still there, here on the Internet: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/page/1049/

It used to be the same, with less content. Now there are more articles daily. There is more staff, able to commit more time, and PC gaming has had a minor explosion back into relevance. There is more of everything.

There have always been low-content reworded press-releases and fluff+video articles. That's part of getting a mix of quality and quantity of news. Until they have 100 employees (which would of course cause more complaints) there is no feasible way for a half-dozen people to cover all topics in depth.

So they meet in the middle, as they always have; giving us as much current PC gaming news as possible, while also providing as much in-depth coverage of games that interest them, and us, as they can.

ColOfNature
16-01-2012, 11:27 PM
This man speaks sense. Who let him in?

Tailzdru
16-01-2012, 11:50 PM
Ive been following RPS for a while and the only true complaint ive had about the site is reading other people complain about it...I try to avery my eyes...ignore it skip past the comments but I have a primal instinct to protect what I love so dearly :|

oh and having different logins for the Site and the forum?


really though this is my favorite actual website from (most of) the community to the writers, I like the fact there are inside jokes now and again something has gone over my head and do you know what, I back tracked through old articles just so I was up to speed.

Jacques
16-01-2012, 11:52 PM
Why doesn't everyone stop "remembering" how great it used to be, and just look at how it used to be. Here you go, it's all still there, here on the Internet: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/page/1049/

It used to be the same, with less content. Now there are more articles daily. There is more staff, able to commit more time, and PC gaming has had a minor explosion back into relevance. There is more of everything.

There have always been low-content reworded press-releases and fluff+video articles. That's part of getting a mix of quality and quantity of news. Until they have 100 employees (which would of course cause more complaints) there is no feasible way for a half-dozen people to cover all topics in depth.

So they meet in the middle, as they always have; giving us as much current PC gaming news as possible, while also providing as much in-depth coverage of games that interest them, and us, as they can.

Which means we had a higher signal to noise ratio. Which was brilliant.

yutt
17-01-2012, 12:10 AM
I'm not sure how you managed to pull that implication out of anything I stated but, no. If you look at the content then and now, it is clear that is not the case. There was just less. Stop being obstinate and just look. It isn't necessary to debate, everything is still there.

If you want more of the mega-features, like Neptune's Pride, or the 2011 RPS Advent Calendar (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/tag/the-amazing-rps-advent-calendar-2011/), they are always more rare than general news. You know why? Because they take time and effort, and arise out of more organic processes than a selection of readers being upset that their once new and shiny toy is now merely trustworthy and reliable.

RPS hasn't changed for the worse in any manner. People simply selectively remember their favorite parts and expect them to be the norm, when they have always been the exceptions.

I guess the root of the problem is that the exceptions are so exceptional.

GothicEmperor
17-01-2012, 12:14 AM
Eh. They post articles. I spent 15 second skimming them, then maybe another 55 to read them fully, or more if it's a 'Wot I think' or interview. Then I spend 1 second thinking 'gosh, good thing I've got a decent PC gaming news/opinion site to go to', then I resume my life filled with adventure, wenches and riches. I personally can't be bothered to analyse and then cast my opinion on said website, which is my loss I guess.

Caspian
17-01-2012, 12:51 AM
The thing is, RPS isn't writing for any of us individually - John's articles are the ones I read most regularly, and are, in some cases, proper, great quality investigative game journalism. The series on violence in videogames in particular springs to mind, and I'm glad that RPS is out there, waving the banner for us. They have visibility, they get taken seriously and they use that visibility to draw attention to certain areas that other sites would overlook.

Context, and understanding your audience, is critical. I love the game diaries too (mine the gap was amazing) but they are (I imagine) also quite resource intensive in terms of time spent researching and creating the articles. RPS has bills (and people) to pay, so it's natural that with only so much time in the day, there's going to be more emphasis on the articles that are quicker to write (like news), until there's enough time to create the gems.

I don't think the quality of the site has suffered, it's just a little more diluted than it used to be. Also, we all lose that 'ooh new and shiny' sheen after a while. You probably thought RPS was an amazing breath of fresh air when you first read it, but once you get used to the style, content and attitude, it then becomes reading some decent writing. Nostalgia is a fickle thing.

It also depends what *you* want out of the site - I don;t go anywhere else for news (my time is limited), so I get all of my game news from RPS - So for me, the news posts are great. Articles on Minecraft or Steam stats, or a petition on Dark Souls? Sure thing - It's interesting in a background context kind of way.

In summary, read the bits you want and don't worry about the others. Enjoy the site for what it is, and understand that RSP is a business (not a hobby), with limited time, needing to make money, but balancing this against artistic integrity and engaging it's audience. OK, it might not manage that 100% of the time, but y'know what, if it manages 70-80%, I'm fine with that...

Cas.

Kadayi
17-01-2012, 01:11 AM
The thing is, RPS isn't writing for any of us individually - John's articles are the ones I read most regularly, and are, in some cases, proper, great quality investigative game journalism.

You're joking right? Johns the worst offender when it comes to pulling stuff straight off of Reddit or throwing a wobbly over something ('It's 10.30 and I can't login to TOR!!') without thinking it through (let's weigh up both sides of the argument here) or researching it (I was being polite by not naming names earlier on, but John was guilty on both those accounts of fueling unnecessary AIM fires as a result of failing to fact check before posting). Sure the guy can write a game review and I trust his opinion on RPGs, but being a good journalist is another thing entirely. Sorry, disagree with your assessment there.

Caspian
17-01-2012, 01:28 AM
You're joking right? Johns the worst offender when it comes to pulling stuff straight off of Reddit or throwing a wobbly over something ('It's 10.30 and I can't login to TOR!!') without thinking it through (let's weigh up both sides of the argument here) or researching it (I was being polite by not naming names earlier on, but John was guilty on both those accounts of fueling unnecessary AIM fires as a result of failing to fact check before posting). Sure the guy can write a game review and I trust his opinion on RPGs, but being a good journalist is another thing entirely. Sorry, disagree with your assessment there.

Well, I did say 'in some cases' - I'm thinking mainly of articles like violence in videogames, challenging the Baronness writing inflamatory materials, The recent articles on SOPA, Taking companies to task over DRM, The Bulletstorm/Fox News fiasco - All very interesting pieces for understanding more of the context and way that games are perceived in popular media.

Does he always get it right? Maybe not, but the fact RPS *does* have an agenda (Calling attention to important political/media representation, taking people/businesses to task about scurrilous claims) beyond being informative and entertaining is one of the key reasons I read it, and Mr W is at the vanguard of that, and the site is better for it...

I don't think anyone here is claiming RPS or any of its writers are infallible, but they are different, and interesting, and I'll take interesting over infallible any day.

Lambchops
17-01-2012, 03:50 AM
I'm not being sycophantic here (though feel free to say I am because I know it b;oody looks like it) but when I was reading Johns' post I was thinking "this man bloody maales sense, there is just more of everything, I wonder who he is?" Then I relalised it was John and felt I had to add the cavear "but it's all too much for me i did prefer if when there was less to digest (because this is true) but he is right there has always been every type of article on RPS and they've always been mostly but not all fantastic and I'm sure that's the way it will stay.

Anway I think I'll shut up before I throw up at being such an arse kisser!

Lambchops
17-01-2012, 03:51 AM
And when I type what looks like a horrendous typo of caviar I of course mean caveat!

I wish I could make some sort of pun to make everything better, for that is what RPS is all about!

Kadayi
17-01-2012, 08:52 AM
Does he always get it right? Maybe not, but the fact RPS *does* have an agenda (Calling attention to important political/media representation, taking people/businesses to task about scurrilous claims) beyond being informative and entertaining is one of the key reasons I read it, and Mr W is at the vanguard of that, and the site is better for it...

Sure informing people about SOPA etc is great, however I do think that there is a tendency to play to and perpetuate certain popular memes that do the rounds in gaming circles without question, that in all honesty don't necessarily have a lot of fact to them when you take the time to genuinely investigate them/think them through (there's a great deal of indignation, but not a lot of 'why?' to things). Rather than raising the level of discussion or clearing the air by presenting the facts, they just pour fuel on the fires that in reality needed to be put out (disinformation benefits no one). As someone whose all about games as experience the notion that there are people are swearing off EA games because they've been lead to believe that Origin is some form of malicious spyware that might read their emails is kind of tragic really. They've been duped.

Rossignol
17-01-2012, 09:29 AM
Kad, can you point to a specific article where John hasn't fact-checked it?

Also, I dislike your suggestion that writing issue based articles can boil down to RPS perpetuating "certain memes". For the most part they are actual issues for PC gamers, often on topics originated by us.

Whether or not you agree with the line RPS takes, or with whether we should be doing that stuff in the first place, is up to you, but do not discredit the work done. John puts an extraordinary amount of time and effort into this materual because he *passionately* believes in it. If that were true for one or two more games journalists then our industry would be a very different place.

mondomau
17-01-2012, 10:11 AM
This thread is hilarious - this is exactly what happens to any site that starts out niche and grows in popularity. More users, more content = increasing number of discontented 'old guard' that remember some imaginary halcyon days of yore, when the site posted only first rate content that catered to their specific interest and before all these upstarts appeared to post opinions that they don't agree with.

Of course, there is some truth to it as far as the increase in users goes - the more popular a site is, the wider it's draw and the more variable the quality of reader contributions. I myself get a bit exasperated when any conversation on Piracy (for example) immediately devolves into the same old childish bickering over whether or not it is illegal/moral/justified/technically stealing or just copyright violation.

It should be noted, by the way, that a lot of the most tiresome horse-flogging and repetitious axe grinding (aforementioned piracy, Steam, Publishers, the mythical RPS censorship engine) I see on here is perpetrated by some of the same long standing commentators who bitch about how much the site's standards have declined.

Are there more 'newsbite' articles on RPS? Yes, there's more everything on RPS. I personally would like to see more of the long-running 'fun' features, but I recognise that there is more to the site than that. And whatever you may think of his (occasionally overly indignant) report style, Walker is doing more to further the cause of honest games journalism and fair treatment for gamers than a dozen other popular game sites I could name.

Don't like it? Stop reading. Or use the features keyword to avoid the 'chaff', ask the admins to introduce a set of filter options that can be set to your preferences. But please don't post things like this - it smacks of entitled whinging or attention seeking (the OP's opening statement is a little too reminiscent of those reddit "DAE" kharma whoring posts for my liking.)

Mahalo,
Mondo.

Bonzrat
17-01-2012, 01:22 PM
While all of us weighing in risks a bit of "we've got their attention! Let's go in for the kill!" situation, couple of things I'd like to add.

Firstly - feature content is up, massively up, from what it used to be, and that's because we can work on the the site pretty much full time as it's making a bit of money now. However, it needs to make a bit of money so that we can work on it pretty much full time, and that means we need to be far more completist than we used to be. Signal to noise ratio is probably a reasonable way of putting it, save for the fact that it's insulting in its implication that we don't try to make everyday news stories fun reads in and of themselves, but there's more of both types of content now. And if you go back in our archives, you'll see we've primarily being doing short posts about news and trailers since the start - the primary difference being that it used to be out-of-date news, and now we're relatively finger-on-the-pulse.

Secondly - we do want to do more diary kinda stuff, and we will, but getting there requires a pretty substantial change in site staff structure. If one guy bogs off to do deep in a diary for a week, it means the others have to carry the can, so often it's simply a matter of practicality. In addition to that, we're only supermen in as much as we're impossibly handsome and strong. There is only so much long-form, high-energy stuff our humble meat-brains can generate within a given period. Yeah, we use more freelancers than we used to, but fundamentally RPS is still four men writing about PC games every single day. We'll keep on coming up with the good stuff and we have exciting plans about how to enable ourselves to do more wild stuff in 2012, but we are mere mortals and in addition to that a good diary or longform piece needs the right game to inspire it. Don't worry though, we've got plenty up our sleeves and you'll see it soon.

Thirdly, to Kadayi - you've been moaning and getting cross with people since pretty much the site's inception, and generally seem to be a very unhappy character. It's come up before, and it's just as unimpressive now as it was then. For that reason, it is honestly impossible to take your complaints seriously these days, let alone see you as a noble figurehead of reader-wide protest. If you really are unwilling to cheer up and make your points more constructively, and if you really do actively dislike the site as much as your ongoing stream of misery suggests, you should probably stop reading us. We don't write RPS for you, nor are we going to. We write it for us, and by an ever-bewildering miracle a few other people seem to enjoy it. We love those people dearly. And we are entirely open to constructive criticism. "You're shit and I don't like it" is not constructive criticism, but it is lazy, rude and worthless. Try taking things less personally and in turn making your attacks less personal, and you'll have a much nicer time on the internet. And yes, I am entirely comfortable with banning your for being a boring miseriguts and no, I don't care that it's cruel and unfair censorship.

Fourthly - something which occasionally nags at me is the more muted response to a lot of our indie coverage. There's just one comment on the Antichamber interview, for instance. We've got "blah blah churnalism blah blah in my day it were all fields" yet people are pretty much ignoring original content about an interesting game. There is zero chance we will ever reduce our indie coverage, because that world is endlessly fascinating and it fuels our own thirst for games in a massive way, but it's sad that increasingly only a minority of our readers are prepared to investigate stuff they haven't already heard of or don't already have an opinion about. In other words, physicians heal thyselves. Expand your horizons and it helps us all build a better, more varied site.

Thanks, sorry to be long, and love you all for your reading, support and feedback (except Kadayi, who I can't love until he learns what love is).

- Alec

Kadayi
17-01-2012, 01:41 PM
Nice ad Homs there Alec (Very classy). If only I'd actually ever written 'you're shit' you might have a half a point. On the whole I do enjoy the site. However that doesn't automatically mean I believe everything that any of you write is necessarily mana from heaven to be agreed with unquestionably. I'm slightly concerned that your dream reader is seemingly some form of nodding dog.

@Jim

Busy day today but I'll get back to you later on.

Bonzrat
17-01-2012, 01:49 PM
"You're joking right? Johns the worst offender when it comes to pulling stuff straight off of Reddit or throwing a wobbly over something ('It's 10.30 and I can't login to TOR!!') without thinking it through (let's weigh up both sides of the argument here) or researching it (I was being polite by not naming names earlier on, but John was guilty on both those accounts of fueling unnecessary AIM fires as a result of failing to fact check before posting).:

Lazy, nasty, ignorant, worthless, absolutist, entirely unconstructive nonsense that has no hope of leading to something better for either side. Don't ad hom me, you big silly.

lhzr
17-01-2012, 02:14 PM
We'll keep on coming up with the good stuff and we have exciting plans about how to enable ourselves to do more wild stuff in 2012, but we are mere mortals and in addition to that a good diary or longform piece needs the right game to inspire it. Don't worry though, we've got plenty up our sleeves and you'll see it soon.

that's good to hear, alec.
about the response to the indie coverage, i read the site while at work so i can't immediately go and try out the games you guys post about. i bookmark them and play them when i remember or when i have time. by then the article where you mentioned them is long gone from the front page so there's not much point in commenting anymore. perhaps you could also use the number of visits a certain article had as an indicator of user interest and not just the number of comments?

anyway, looking forward to another year of rps :)

Vicious
17-01-2012, 02:47 PM
Actually, I've been reading rockpapershotgun since inception and I've never, ever had any interest in the Indie content. Every time an indie article comes up I inwardly groan :D

Fave parts are definitely game diaries, A Fool in Morrowind and NP being highlights for me.

Skalpadda
17-01-2012, 02:48 PM
I'll agree that it sometimes feels like the torrent of little news posts can drown out the genuinely interesting articles that are the reason I really like RPS and made it my go-to place to read about cool games in the first place. It doesn't bother me much, as long as the good stuff keeps coming.

Auspex has a point on the site feeling a bit angrier lately though. Of course there's nothing wrong with being angry about things that are rubbish, but RPS has always been at its best for me when it's cheerfully championing things the writers are truly excited about. Perhaps it's just a reflection of all the nonsense going in in the industry lately.

Bonzrat
17-01-2012, 02:57 PM
I do wonder if people just tend to remember anger more than joy, however.

Jacques
17-01-2012, 03:03 PM
While all of us weighing in risks a bit of "we've got their attention! Let's go in for the kill!" situation, couple of things I'd like to add.

To the contrary, it proves that you all give a damn.

Skalpadda
17-01-2012, 03:26 PM
I do wonder if people just tend to remember anger more than joy, however.

I expect that depends entirely on the reader. Thinking back at 2011 the big things that come to mind are the enthusiastic and thoughtful writings about Deus Ex, The Witcher 2, Portal 2, Skyrim, To the Moon, Bastion and so on. That's the sort of stuff I personally enjoy reading and the reason I'm a subscriber who keeps coming back for more.

What I mean by angrier is that when topics like CDP's pirate hunting, DRM or whatever other bollocks the games industry conjures from it's mystical bag of awfulness come up now the tone is more one of negativity and complaining rather than the merciless mocking these things have received in the past. That's just my very subjective impression though, not a statement of fact, and I'd certainly find it hard to have endless patience with an industry that seems hell-bent on annoying the life out of it's own customers myself.

Hydrogene
17-01-2012, 03:33 PM
I've been reading RPS since 2010, and I still love it. And I don't mind the increase in content, as the wit is still there in good quantity.
The news guy Smith is terrific, but I still miss the old one. You know the one lacking iron, Quinns or something. Can you bring him back? Please?

Bonzrat
17-01-2012, 04:16 PM
We miss him too, but he's lost to the cold but affluent arms of marketing now.

Nova
17-01-2012, 05:02 PM
Well, maybe, probably it's just me being grumpy combined with the more serious/negative tone.

To clarify, RPS is still the best (PC) gaming site with or without my slight disappointment.

Edit: I read the Antichamber (and the other IGF pieces) interview. I just don't comment that often.

Nalano
17-01-2012, 06:58 PM
To the contrary, it proves that you all give a damn.

To be fair, so did Tseric (http://www.wowwiki.com/Tseric).

Jacques
17-01-2012, 07:15 PM
To be fair, so did Tseric (http://www.wowwiki.com/Tseric).

That's quite sad.

Actually, you can probably draw some parallels between that and this situation.

Blizzard clearly gather a hell of a lot of data about what goes on in game, which they can then analyse to see if any trends are occurring (ie class A being overpowered). They can then cross reference that data with what people are saying online, and ignore the trouble makers, though still pay attention to tease out the few nuggets of genuine concern from the piles of steaming shit.

Presumably (hopefully), that's what the RPS Tyrants are doing, and while some of us are being noisy, they can see that the numbers are up.

To be honest, I firmly believe that most of the issues mentioned in this thread would be sorted by a site redesign that made sure to work around what's going on with the content now compared to what was being produced way back when. With a real emphasis on giving a big showcase to the fan favourites (diaries, John's rants, Jim's robot posts, anything to do with Warhammer, etc) and then giving less attention to the press releases.

Offer an email subscription option on the site using the Feedburner feed (easy to do in Feedburner itself), so those of us at work can get read the articles and click through to the ones that interest us.

So yeah, use data, but please keep listening to us.

John Walker
17-01-2012, 08:00 PM
You're joking right? Johns the worst offender when it comes to pulling stuff straight off of Reddit or throwing a wobbly over something ('It's 10.30 and I can't login to TOR!!') without thinking it through (let's weigh up both sides of the argument here) or researching it (I was being polite by not naming names earlier on, but John was guilty on both those accounts of fueling unnecessary AIM fires as a result of failing to fact check before posting). Sure the guy can write a game review and I trust his opinion on RPGs, but being a good journalist is another thing entirely. Sorry, disagree with your assessment there.

I know Jim's already addressed this, but hey, it's about me.

For someone so easily offended, you're very quick to be offensive. Announcing what I'm bad at, without giving meaningful examples (the TOR post, really?) isn't only rude, but it's incredibly lazy.

If I have made mistakes in articles, which I certainly will do, a sensible response is to email me about them so I can make corrections. People do that, and the articles improve.

Your suggestion that I'm lazy is tiresome. I work very hard. I spend a lot of time researching, and I'm proud of a lot of the work that comes of it. When you name the articles that contain mistakes, I'm going to venture that you're not going to cite the majority of them. Which, well, makes your sweeping statements a little unfair, don't you think?

As Alec said, I really don't understand why you don't go. The site clearly brings you more pain than pleasure, as your endless assault of pissy negativity displays, so just stop reading it.

John

Wizardry
17-01-2012, 08:14 PM
If I thought RPS was going downhill I'd surely bitch about it as much as I bitch about RPGs. Having said that... this site is as good as ever. Probably better than ever. The content hasn't changed much so perhaps it's because RPS is angrier than ever. I like it.

It's funny how people are getting all nostalgic over a website that isn't even very old. "Remember the good old days of RPS? It's just not the same any more!"

Auspex
17-01-2012, 08:55 PM
...perhaps it's because RPS is angrier than ever. I like it.


Like many other things I have the opposite view from you Wizardry! I prefer my RPS silly and cheerful. Or not so much cheerful as positive - games are amazing and I like reading about people telling me how they enjoy playing games.

Just wanted to make clear that I still enjoy RPS a huge amount; it's the only website where I read almost every single article (only avoiding those with potential spoilers), it convinces me to play games I might have missed, I am very happy to subscribe and I'd quite like it the writers were my friends.

Lambchops
17-01-2012, 09:38 PM
Fourthly - something which occasionally nags at me is the more muted response to a lot of our indie coverage.



I can't speak for anyone else obviously but i love the indie content. However I'm less likely to comment on it as I tend not to have the time to play the game straight away and say anything partiularly useful about it. As a rule I try to self censor myself (not always successfully) from making boring comments like "that looks interesting" which is all I'd be able to offer at that stage. Unless there's an opportunity for a pun of course! Whereas with sequels there's always the chance to compare to previous games and an easy discussion to be had. I definitely appreciate the indie content - I just wish I'd remember which games looked interesting more bloody often!

ColOfNature
17-01-2012, 09:58 PM
I rarely comment on articles, but I do read almost everything (I occasionally skip The Flare Path, sorry Tim but it's just not my cup of beverage) and so I thought I'd stick in my two penn'orth re the state of RPS today: it's fine. A change of tone is understandable, what with the new blood introduced recently and the old hands getting more jaded from spending so long wading through the mire of press releases and facing down the snake-like corporate PRs day in, day out; but RPS is still the best site around for PC games bar none.

Smashbox
17-01-2012, 10:27 PM
Rock Paper Shotgun is my favorite blog, period, and it's cultivated a nearly-completely great community. Three cheers for all the good work and clever ideas here.

Kadayi
17-01-2012, 10:54 PM
Kad, can you point to a specific article where John hasn't fact-checked it?

@Jim

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/08/18/ubisoft-edits-forum-keeps-from-dust-drm/

The original post at the time stated that valve were offering refunds on From Dust due to the DRM (now since edited btw). This was a based on a statement made at another gaming site (Lo Ping) to that effect. The truth was that was a fiction made up by that site (Valve hadn’t instigated any refund offer), and in reality all Lo ping did was link to steams general support page. However given that RPS links directly into Steam news feed, lots of people took this statement as fact and then proceeded to bombard Steam support with refund requests. Cue much wailing and gnashing of teeth over Valve refusing them causing more of an uproar. Sure down the road Ubisoft acquiesced over the refund demands and authorized Valve to honour them if made (even though by then the offending DRM had been patched out), but a whole lot of AIM frothing could have been avoided if some verification as to the validity of Lo pings claims had been carried out in the first place.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/08/24/eas-origin-eula-proves-even-more-sinister/

This article took its lead from a thread begun at the escapist.: -

EA's Origin is creepy and watches you sleep!

Where in the OP claimed that: -


‘Well ok, not really, but EA's Origin does watch everything you do on your computer.

If you read the End User License Agreement for Origin it states that by installing Origin you're giving EA the right to monitor your PC and to make a profile of you, including what programs you have installed (and whether you have any illegally downloaded material), what websites you use, etc., and that EA reserves the right to share or sell this information to third parties.

Now I’m not going to get into why this was complete alarmist bullshit of the first order, but what I don’t understand is why instead of attempting to clarify the matter John instead opted to go with the fear mongering headline and the ‘is it spyware?’ approach of hang wringing? (Cue much wailing and gnashing of AIM teeth across the comments as a result as everyone collectively loses their shit at EA, Origin, the Bavarian illumanti etc, etc).

Only a few days previously to that RPS when puzzling over the conundrum of regional locking in DX:HR decided to consult with the good folks at www.gamerlaw.co.uk to give them the skinny on what’s what, and Jas Purewal (someone who understands legalese) obliged. The perfect candidate to clarify the ins and out of what the EA EULA truly meant no? In fact he actually wrote a piece in direct response to John’s article outlining the fact that The EA Origins EULA is a non-story: -

http://www.gamerlaw.co.uk/2011/08/ea-origins-eula-is-non-story.html

and that people were really getting their knickers in a twist over nothing.

Why go with worried speculation, when clarification was available? What exactly serves the RPS site readership best Jim? Spreading disinformation that has no basis in reality and misleading people or dealing in the facts? Call me crazy but I’d say going with the facts would better for everyone.

As it stands almost without fail even now, you can guarantee that in any comments thread on an EA game, there’s someone posting about how they won’t buy the game because ‘Origin is spyware yadda tadda yadda’ and for me personally as a gamer, the notion that people are going to swear off an entire game experience over what are little more Internet phantasms is kind of tragic.

Sure you as a site weren't alone in spreading that line, but I kind of hold you to a higher order in that regard. RPS has a pretty good reputation amongst not only gamers, but also other gaming sites, so it was kind of disappointing to me that you didn't go with a real investigation into the facts and clear things up.


Also, I dislike your suggestion that writing issue based articles can boil down to RPS perpetuating "certain memes". For the most part they are actual issues for PC gamers, often on topics originated by us.

I do think at times there’s a tendency by the Hivemind to portray the big publishers as evil scheming meanies because it plays well with common gamer attitudes in lieu of seeing them as what they are namely, large businesses trying to navigate an ever evolving medium and market place. Yes they make mistakes all the time (and I sure as hell don’t like some practices), but I don’t think serves any great purpose to vilify them as incompetent pantomime Villains (‘Oh Ubisoft’) at any given opportunity.


Whether or not you agree with the line RPS takes, or with whether we should be doing that stuff in the first place, is up to you, but do not discredit the work done. John puts an extraordinary amount of time and effort into this material because he *passionately* believes in it. If that were true for one or two more games journalists then our industry would be a very different place.

My issue is not with the work on the whole, my issue is with fact checking at times (in fact I said this in my first post in this thread). I don’t doubt John is passionate, but being passionate is not a journalistic get out of jail free card when it comes to certain things. From my view I think at times there have been lapses. You might disagree and that is your prerogative.

I apologize for the acerbic nature of my earlier post. It was a tad harsher than I anticipated and if I could take it back a notch or two I would (it was late when I wrote and I'm Kad).

Anyway for the record I don’t dislike the site at all. I wouldn’t have put as much into it as a forum regular, commenter and subscriber over the years if I didn’t like it here (that would be a mad waste of my spare time). When people have accused you having been bought off by publishers I've been first in line putting them straight in the comments. However at the same time I don't necessarily agree with everything you say. It would be a terribly boring world if that were the case.

MD!
17-01-2012, 11:32 PM
I can't speak for anyone else obviously but i love the indie content. However I'm less likely to comment on it as I tend not to have the time to play the game straight away and say anything partiularly useful about it. As a rule I try to self censor myself (not always successfully) from making boring comments like "that looks interesting" which is all I'd be able to offer at that stage. Unless there's an opportunity for a pun of course! Whereas with sequels there's always the chance to compare to previous games and an easy discussion to be had. I definitely appreciate the indie content - I just wish I'd remember which games looked interesting more bloody often!

Yeah, I was going to make a similar point. For me, commenting/not commenting isn't a very useful metric of my interest. (Unfortunately I'm not great at self-censoring worthlessless from my output, but I think I'm more likely to post some sort of lame joke or nitpick when I know it's going to get lost in a hundred other comments. Plus, a large proportion of my comments on articles are prompted by other comments, rather than by the article itself.)

John Walker
18-01-2012, 12:24 AM
@Jim

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/08/18/ubisoft-edits-forum-keeps-from-dust-drm/

The original post at the time stated that valve were offering refunds on From Dust due to the DRM (now since edited btw).

etc etc.

Well, no it didn't. The original article had no mention at all, and then later after many contacted me with the Lo Ping information I edited it in at the top, but added the proviso that it seemed questionable to me. When it was proven untrue, I edited accordingly once more. Many other websites copied my story, but chose to leave out the bit where I said that Lo Ping's story looked dubious, and many more just lifted the Lo Ping story from their site as fact. I was not one of those.


http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/08/24/eas-origin-eula-proves-even-more-sinister/


Etc etc.

The wording of the EULA was sinister, because it was about something sinister. So much so that EA attempted to reword the paragraph to make it sound all lovely and friendly, when it was still the same "We must have a right to spy on your computer" it was in the first place.

Purewal, as lovely a guy as he may be, is an apologist for such things. The other day he was defending the bullying actions of extorting alleged pirates, and spreading misinformation about the so-called devastation piracy is causing developers without any evidence at all. I find this troubling. His position on Origin is equally problematic. Origin's EULA demands the right to scan your computer and send its findings, and has no option to switch this off. That is the very definition of "spyware", however much you may not care that it's happening. It's enforced spyware, that anyone wanting to play an Origin-only game must allow to run on their machine. This is in stark contrast to Steam, which allows you to opt out of this.

I find enforced spyware to be very concerning, and wrote a post arguing that EA should remove this from their EULA and have the option to opt out of allowing their software to scan your machine and send back any information it wishes. I believe in people's right to privacy, and as benevolent as EA's intentions might be, they are still demanding you sacrifice your privacy to this software, while agreeing to an EULA that gives them permission to abuse this information in any way they see fit. I am pleased they reworded in response, but I'm very troubled that they haven't seen sense to make it optional. And the enormous question remains: why not? This is the reason why people say they will not buy Origin-only games.

If those were your best examples to justify your extremely rude outburst about my failings as a journalist, I think you probably owe me an apology. One that you made up, and one where you presumably just disagree with my argument, rather than actually call any of the facts into question.

Kadayi
18-01-2012, 01:13 AM
Purewal, as lovely a guy as he may be, is an apologist for such things. The other day he was defending the bullying actions of extorting alleged pirates, and spreading misinformation about the so-called devastation piracy is causing developers without any evidence at all. I find this troubling. His position on Origin is equally problematic. Origin's EULA demands the right to scan your computer and send its findings, and has no option to switch this off.That is the very definition of "spyware", however much you may not care that it's happening. It's enforced spyware, that anyone wanting to play an Origin-only game must allow to run on their machine. This is in stark contrast to Steam, which allows you to opt out of this.

I'm sorry but it's not his position, its a legal interpretation. Simply labeling him as an apologist doesn't cut through that. Reading the EULA without putting it in context with the EAs privacy policy etc is a mistake (an honest mistake, but a mistake never the less). They are meant to be read in conjunction. If you doubt the validity of his position John, consult with another legal professional about it.

As regards the whole 'spyware thing' I'll refer to this thread: -

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?2318-According-to-CT-magazine-Origin-is-not-spyware&highlight=origin

Personal definitions don't really come into it I'm afraid.

I've acknowledged that I was out of order with the tone John, but I'm not going to apologize over the points because I'd say they are valid, sorry.

Kelron
18-01-2012, 01:20 AM
Origin may not actually be collecting data from your PC, but the EULA (as worded in the article) appears to be granting EA the right to if they wish.

soldant
18-01-2012, 01:21 AM
The Origin spyware story had little factual basis. It was based on fear kicked up by online communities over terms found in many EULAs. Also I was under the impression that you can opt-out of "monitoring" (which isn't close to what was claimed). At least I remember a checkbox to that effect during the install.

Kadayi
18-01-2012, 01:25 AM
Origin may not actually be collecting data from your PC, but the EULA (as worded in the article) appears to be granting EA the right to if they wish.

Again you need to read it in conjunction with the EA's privacy policy: -

http://www.ea.com/privacy-policy

One does not supersede the other, and neither can breach your national data protection laws.

Ultimately regardless of whatever is stated in a EULA (or any contract between parties for that matter) nothing agreed can usurp broader national legislation designed to protect the rights of its citizens.

zookeeper
18-01-2012, 04:59 AM
I feel that there's an important point that's being missed here.


...then I resume my life filled with adventure, wenches and riches.

Please, tell us more...

John Walker
18-01-2012, 09:43 AM
Right, so we disagree about the severity of such wording, and the ability for Origin to scan your hardware and software and send data back to EA. You say because their privacy policy says they won't abuse this, it isn't a problem. I say such software is the very definition of spyware, and I should have the choice about whether it's running.

And your other example was something that didn't happen.

I genuinely thought, after your outburst, you were going to list things where I'd made serious mistakes which I would have to go back and correct.

Nalano
18-01-2012, 10:06 AM
Because your PM inbox is full, Kadayi:

Your capacity for introspection is as it ever was.

Megagun
18-01-2012, 10:40 AM
Any EULA that reserves the right to be altered (99% of EULAs) allow the company that wrote these EULAs to do whatever they want on your PC. This means that an EULA that says "We won't access your harddrive at all" is exactly the same as an EULA that says "We may access your harddrive to scan for illegally obtained software".

As such, why is anyone ever discussing EULAs? They're all as awful as they could theoretically be, so why are we obsessing over one random software's EULA in comparison with another's?

Instead, why don't we look at the actual software? Why don't we take a look at what it does rather than what it can do or what it's allowed to do based on some EULA that doesn't really matter at all?

Kadayi
18-01-2012, 11:32 AM
Right, so we disagree about the severity of such wording, and the ability for Origin to scan your hardware and software and send data back to EA. You say because their privacy policy says they won't abuse this, it isn't a problem. I say such software is the very definition of spyware, and I should have the choice about whether it's running

It's not that they won't abuse it, it's that they can't and therefore any personal opinion on it being 'spyware' is moot. I've referred you to the necessary data. If you're adamant I'm wrong and that you are in the right then consult with a legal professional or two and get a broader opinion on the matter of EAs EULA and EULAs in general.

FuriKuri!
18-01-2012, 11:50 AM
Can't is a strong word here and I think you're wrong. Not least of all because the assumption that companies are utterly incapable of doing illegal actions is laughable! But ok, I'll concede that a company's willingness to break the law (or at least, operate in murky grey areas where things aren't so clear cut) is irrelevant to the discussion of what state that law is in.

So more pertinently - I have observed EULAs twisting laws on numerous occasions and never in favour of the customer. For example, EULAs have removed everyone's legal right of first sale (at least in the US).

I honestly don't know to what extent they'd be able to 'legally' spy on people but A) it's done already even if its just recording [mostly] benign game data (Valve knows where and when you died in TF2 for example) or hardware specs and B) what any legal professional will tell you is that EULAs have largely been untested in the courts and saying an EULA can't override the law isn't strictly guaranteed.

Of course, this also depends on where you are - the EU seems to care more about this stuff than the US, for example.

Kadayi
18-01-2012, 12:42 PM
Can't is a strong word here and I think you're wrong. Not least of all because the assumption that companies are utterly incapable of doing illegal actions is laughable!

The issue is not whether companies can do things that are illegal (I've at no point stated that), but that they can't usurp basic protections, and or their own agreements without opening themselves up fully to civil and criminal liability.

mpk
18-01-2012, 03:54 PM
The issue is not whether companies can do things that are illegal (I've at no point stated that), but that they can't usurp basic protections, and or their own agreements without opening themselves up fully to civil and criminal liability.

This is where the grey area lies. Companies are tried and tested in the court of public opinion every day, but gamers haven't taken them to the law courts to test EULAs and Privacy Policies against the laws of the land because a) it's going to cost a lot of money, and the companies will settle out of court first and foremost b) how the hell do you do it?

And that's what companies rely on. Having worked for a couple of nationwide companies, I can confidently say that large organisations will do exactly as much as they need to to be compliant with laws and regulations, and not an iota more. Having a privacy policy doesn't mean they're abiding by it, but it does give them a way of both defending their actions offhand ("Oh, we have a Privacy Policy to stop us doing X") and to easily create scapegoats ("X employee/contracted third-party broke our privacy policy, we've binned them. It wasn't our fault"). EULAs and ToS and all these other things are paper shields that companies such as EA can use to get away with doing whatever they want, because they don't have to deal with an industry regulator. It's up to individual consumers to arbitrate disputes and, so far as I am aware, there has never been a concerted effort by anyone to test their paper shield against the law.

BobsLawnService
18-01-2012, 05:32 PM
I don't claim to speak for anyone else but the reason I have lost interest in the Indy scene is because it has become so tedious. There are onl so many one trick pony platformers or roguelikes with a twist or wannabe-clever non-games (Like This aint Your Story or Digital a Love Story) that I can play. Really, the scene is becoming as formulaic as the AAA one.So nothing to do with you. I do get frustrated that one day's posts span three or four pages. The front page should be displaying two or three days worth of content.

Kadayi
18-01-2012, 05:57 PM
b) how the hell do you do it?

Consult your lawyer.

Nalano
18-01-2012, 08:31 PM
Consult your lawyer.

Will you pay for my lawyer?

Smashbox
18-01-2012, 08:38 PM
You will never have the last word. Abandon all hope ye who enter here.

Kadayi
18-01-2012, 10:12 PM
Will you pay for my lawyer?

Real life and Daytime TV are different things. There's plenty of free legal advice and representation out there if you are prepared to look for it, especially if you have a legitimate case. If EA (or any other business for that matter) says they don't pass on personally identifiable data they gather from you then it's not in their best interests to do so. As it is if you read the Article in the thread I linked to earlier on the German Tech heads concluded that Origin doesn't actually scan your hard drives like a file search (it doesn't even sniff out previously installed EA games) all it does is scan your windows system registry (so basically installed applications and system settings).

Nalano
18-01-2012, 11:24 PM
Real life and Daytime TV are different things. There's plenty of free legal advice and representation out there if you are prepared to look for it, especially if you have a legitimate case. If EA (or any other business for that matter) says they don't pass on personally identifiable data they gather from you then it's not in their best interests to do so. As it is if you read the Article in the thread I linked to earlier on the German Tech heads concluded that Origin doesn't actually scan your hard drives like a file search (it doesn't even sniff out previously installed EA games) all it does is scan your windows system registry (so basically installed applications and system settings).

So the answer is "no, I will not pay for your lawyer; good luck finding one willing to take on an army."

Kadayi
18-01-2012, 11:37 PM
Because whats important to a judge is not the validity of your assertions of the facts regarding breach of contract, but how much your lawyers are paid.

Nalano
18-01-2012, 11:56 PM
Because whats important to a judge is not the validity of your assertions of the facts regarding breach of contract, but how much your lawyers are paid.

Spoken like a man who's never had to go to court.

By the way,


http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/S/spyware.html

Any software that covertly gathers user information through the user's Internet connection without his or her knowledge, usually for advertising purposes. even by johns loose standards EA telling you what it's doing means it fails the test of being spyware. the whole point is the user doesn't know that they are being monitored. It has nothing to do with being discreet or overt. It has everything to do with the user knowing that it is occuring.

Fine print is not disclosure, nor is it grounds for claiming the user consents to outrageous searches and seizures.

Smashbox
19-01-2012, 12:01 AM
Fun fact: At least under US law, contracts that include clauses that are not reasonable expectations (including EULAs) are nigh-unenforceable. That said, good luck going toe-to-toe with EA's lawyers. They think it's cute.

kirrus
19-01-2012, 12:40 AM
People, be nice, and don't let this thread degenerate, or it will just be locked/deleted.

Kadayi
19-01-2012, 12:52 AM
Spoken like a man who's never had to go to court.

How about you quit with the grumbling and conspiracies and come up with something of substance to demonstrate that Origin is in fact Spyware beyond simply the insistence that it is hey? Show us how the German tech magazine guys got it wrong. Demonstrate that webopedia's definition of spyware is lacking.

Because unless you can demonstrate that, all this talk of legalities and insinuations that money always wins Vs the truth is frankly kind of moot and nebulous (I'd also say Rupert Murdoch might disagree about that last part as well).

ColOfNature
19-01-2012, 12:53 AM
People, be nice, and don't let this thread degenerate, or it will just be locked/deleted.

This thread started out pretty degenerate and has been spiralling farther into the abyss ever since.

Jacques
20-01-2012, 07:12 PM
I guess this article by John is the kind of thing it's frustrating to read.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/01/19/ubisoft-anno-2070-drm-works-as-intended/

There's no real mention of how the average consumer behaves in terms of hardware upgrades and using multiple machines, or what the expected life expectancy of the product is in the eyes of the average consumer. You know, facts that could potentially hold up the argument you're trying to make.

I wouldn't doubt that Ubi, on the other hand, do have that kind of data on hand, and have made their decision of 3 limits based on that data.

Nalano
20-01-2012, 07:49 PM
I wouldn't doubt that Ubi, on the other hand, do have that kind of data on hand, and have made their decision of 3 limits based on that data.

To paraphrase Jim Sterling, these publishers are not on your side (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/5233-Limited-Collectors-Complete-Edition). Independent games journalists, however, actually are. Why you would trust the companies over their critics or, worse, your own eyes, is beyond me.

Besides, the excuse Ubisoft gave was very much a "by the numbers" excuse. You know - "the number of people liable to complain about this idiocy isn't enough to counteract the money we believe we'd make by doing it." Kinda like Ford's rationalization, "we'd rather waste our time with individual lawsuits than recall the exploding Pinto."

Kadayi
20-01-2012, 09:29 PM
There's no real mention of how the average consumer behaves in terms of hardware upgrades and using multiple machines, or what the expected life expectancy of the product is in the eyes of the average consumer. You know, facts that could potentially hold up the argument you're trying to make.

Pretty much. I don't agree with limited activations (and certainly not a measly 3 Vs 5), but it seems to be a temporary thing that they implement and then later patch out once the sales drop off . So breaking it by swapping out GPUs in quick success proves that it works, but yeah isn't exactly very real world.

The key problem I see is that there's this common presumption that 'DRM is bad' but there doesn't seem to be much journalistic research done (from what I've seen) into exactly how bad it is in terms of genuine actual real world impact Vs nebulous scaremongering ('this could be terrible!') which unfortunately persecution complex types seem to lap up with boundless enthusiasm to get terribly righteous over, like Pharisees demonstrating whose more holy on the Sabbath.

I’d like to see some genuine metrics on how impactful 'always on DRM', Vs 'online at launch' etc, etc in this increasingly interconnected world, vs the endless tales of how ‘I had terrible internet 5 years ago when I was on dial up, therefore this is bad’ blanket statements. The only person on this forum who seems to have a legitimate case is Berzee (IIRC) in that he apparently lives on a bus (or at least that’s what he wants me to believe). My suspicion is, beyond the odd outlier like him the answer is not very truth be told. Still until someone does some research on the matter how we ever to really know? Whom exactly are people boycotting Ubisoft or EA for exactly? Themselves (hardly I'd say), or some great mythical unwashed whom seemingly lack a voice out in the wilderness? I’d like to see the RPS article that finds out tbh.

RobF
20-01-2012, 09:57 PM
Why would I (or anyone else for that matter) give a monkeys what the "average" consumer does? Given the average consumer is a statistic not a person?

I'm befuddled. I care how it effects me, I care how it effects my friends, I care how it inconveniences *me* not a statistical average on a spreadsheet at Ubisoft.

Also, I don't care how they came up with the figure given it's limited activations not just the amount that's the issue. I also don't care whether anyone says I can be allowed to care about it or not because no-one else gets to decide what I give a toss about.

Kadayi
20-01-2012, 10:19 PM
I'm befuddled. I care how it effects me, I care how it effects my friends, I care how it inconveniences *me* not a statistical average on a spreadsheet at Ubisoft.

And how much does it inconvenience you exactly in terms of real world scenarios?

RobF
20-01-2012, 10:36 PM
Plenty, thanks. And I'll be the judge of what inconveniences me so don't even go there.

Kadayi
20-01-2012, 11:18 PM
Plenty, thanks. And I'll be the judge of what inconveniences me so don't even go there.

Go where? I'm simply asking you to outline some everyday examples of how you'd be inconvenienced. If there are plenty is should be an easy task to provide some data surely? I'm not interested in judging the value of them. I'm interested in knowing what they are exactly. Without real world examples we're in the realms of the nebulous here.

Smashbox
20-01-2012, 11:38 PM
Kadayi: Arbiter of the Onerous

RobF
21-01-2012, 12:12 AM
Yes, Kadayi. Just like all the other threads where you just want some data.

And then refuse to acknowledge the data as anything that's allowable, justifiable or whatever.

Sorry love, not biting.

kirrus
21-01-2012, 01:23 AM
That's enough.