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Text_Fish
16-01-2012, 02:44 PM
Join a worthy cause! Some gamer folk have created a Steam group appealing to Valve to say something (anything!) regarding the future of the Half-Life series. 10,000 members and counting, so far: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/messagetovalve

To those whose initial reaction to this is similar to my own, let me assure you this is not an attack on Valve, it's merely a heartfelt plea from a community of HL fans who want some assurance that their continuing loyalty to the series won't be taken for granted.

More than anything I think it poses some interesting questions about the obligations of companies like Valve to the fans who have contributed so much to their success. How long can internet communities remain active and engaged without fresh content (or even news thereof) from the companies they support? Is it okay for a company like Valve to be so guarded when their actions could make or break fansites, servers and mods?

Squiz
16-01-2012, 02:49 PM
I'm not sure if this a good example of a "worthy cause". I am however interested in Valve's hopefully both positive and humorous reaction to this.

Kadayi
16-01-2012, 03:00 PM
I'm not sure if this a good example of a "worthy cause". I am however interested in Valve's hopefully both positive and humorous reaction to this.

The probable response is a video of Gabe buying more knives (because you can never have enough knives) and playing copious amounts of DOTA2 whilst sitting in a cubicle made entirely of bricks of Steam Christmas sales money.

Still joined just on the vague off chance we receive a constructive response.

ALDI Nord
16-01-2012, 03:27 PM
@Kadayi (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/member.php?18-Kadayi)
Either that or a simple "we are working on it" is probably all we will get. Although I have hope, so I joined anyway.

DigitalSignalX
16-01-2012, 05:30 PM
"we are working on it" or "it will be done when it's done" type of reply would be remarkable. AFAIK it hasn't been publicly acknowledged.. ever?

Kaira-
16-01-2012, 05:35 PM
"we are working on it" or "it will be done when it's done" type of reply would be remarkable. AFAIK it hasn't been publicly acknowledged.. ever?

Well, there was that one thing about sign language a few years back (late 2009 apparently).

Smashbox
16-01-2012, 06:12 PM
I'm not sure if this a good example of a "worthy cause".

I'm also not sure if this a good example of a "worthy cause".

The last thing they said on the subject was that we'd have more news 'by the end of 2009.' Since then, nothing. There was a point, however, when Valve was openly discussing the existence of Episode 3. Never Half Life 3.

That cliffhanger...

vinraith
16-01-2012, 06:44 PM
Pushinga developer into making a game they aren't interested in at the moment seems like a bad move, to me.

Squiz
16-01-2012, 07:10 PM
Pushinga developer into making a game they aren't interested in at the moment seems like a bad move, to me.As the description of the group states, this is not ment to push the developer in any shape or form to make the game but to establish better communication between Valve and the fanbase, for what its worth.

Rii
16-01-2012, 07:14 PM
More than anything I think it poses some interesting questions about the obligations of companies like Valve to the fans who have contributed so much to their success.

A: None.

And if Valve won't even communicate about their customers' credit card details being compromised, well, good luck getting them to communicate about anything else.

LordHuggington
16-01-2012, 07:23 PM
Valve's probably too busy helping out with the Arrested Development movie to be working on HL3.

Kadayi
16-01-2012, 09:22 PM
Valve's probably too busy helping out with the Arrested Development movie to be working on HL3.

Wha.....


Pushing a developer into making a game they aren't interested in at the moment seems like a bad move, to me.

I guess DNF would of been ace if only all those pesky Duke fans hadn't kept haranguing George Broussard during those extensive Wow sessions he liked to indulge in....

It's supposed to be an episode. A supplemental. A few hours game play extending from events previous. Not a reinvention of the wheel and the laws of relativity. Gordon Freeman travels to the Borealis, Gordon freeman finds a prototype portal gun. Gordon Freeman has some fun using said Portal gun with gravity gun to hilarious effect on murdering scumbag combine advisors plus assorted minions, and Dr Mossman gets what she deserves. Cue raised crowbar, cue human victory, cue Alyx giving you a big hug, cue Dr Kleiner making inappropriate suggestions, cue G man turning up and being all mysterious then fade to black and roll credits. That's all anyone really wants.

Flint
16-01-2012, 09:31 PM
Wha.....
Reference to the status of the Arrested Development movie that keeps getting pushed back and is probably booking a stay in development hell - somewhat akin to HL3/ep3, some would say.

FuriKuri!
16-01-2012, 09:38 PM
It's supposed to be an episode. A supplemental. A few hours game play extending from events previous. Not a reinvention of the wheel and the laws of relativity. Gordon Freeman travels to the Borealis, Gordon freeman finds a prototype portal gun. Gordon Freeman has some fun using said Portal gun with gravity gun to hilarious effect on murdering scumbag combine advisors plus assorted minions, and Dr Mossman gets what she deserves. Cue raised crowbar, cue human victory, cue Alyx giving you a big hug, cue Dr Kleiner making inappropriate suggestions, cue G man turning up and being all mysterious then fade to black and roll credits. That's all anyone really wants.

Pretty much. Although I don't agree with your earlier statement that they should stop at that point and move on from HL - the combine thing just isn't "done" and to stop without any real resolution would be pretty weak. I kinda resented HL2 didn't really end cleanly - HL's ending was open ended but at least left the impression that Xen was done and mission accomplished. The episodes were largely pointless meandering and just opened up more nonsense that didn't get resolved even in an unsatisfactory manner.

The episodes are definately valve's biggest blunder. ;/

Nova
16-01-2012, 10:04 PM
More like, come join, come join our hopeless cause (http://soundcloud.com/handsometours-com/03-the-hope-that-house-built).

Kadayi
16-01-2012, 10:31 PM
The episodes are definitely valve's biggest blunder. ;/

Well as Soldant highlighted in the other thread, the game style is showing its age and increasingly it's going to become harder and harder to deliver great story line and staying true to that proscribed approach. Change too much and you're in danger of no longer being recognizably a Half-life game.

As regards the episodes. I think the only blunder is Valves failure to deliver them in a timely fashion. They were one of the first developers to ever talk about 'episodic' gaming and also one of the first to fail at living up to their promises on the matter. As gaming experiences I thought they were acceptable. However they had to pull a lot of smoke and mirrors with the Source engine to make the exterior parts seem expansive (if you birds eye the maps using no_clip you'll see you that the roads all zig zag around back on themselves a lot in order to overcome the limitations of Sources map constraints). 10 times the size of the maps in HL sounds great, until you realise the map sizes in say Unreal are significantly larger. There probably is an argument that they should of just gotten on with making a complete new engine, Vs polishing Source up as much as they did. Still what's done is done.

Snargelfargen
16-01-2012, 10:36 PM
It's too bad as I thought the episodes were a really good format for a shooter. It allowed Valve to play around with ideas that they probably wouldn't have put in a complete game, such as the part in Ep. 1 where you only have a flashlight and Alyx has the gun. Or the bizarre bomb-launching racing game at the end Ep. 2.

The story was... well, I didn't play it for the story, so I don't care about it too much. Half Life was always about mood & setting, and I'm pretty sure tying all the plot ends up would be really unsatisfying and overly expository. Nobody wants another Matrix: Revolutions.

sinister agent
16-01-2012, 11:11 PM
Look, I love games, okay. Let's get that out there. But touting "continuing loyalty" to a series of games is just ... I mean... urgh. Loyalty is a virtue, something you have if you stick with someone through anything. It is not something that applies because you bought some games from the same people several times.

And no, I don't have a fucking nectar card. Stop asking.

Nalano
17-01-2012, 01:00 AM
Valve doesn't owe anybody anything.

Considering that no matter what format Ep3 or HL3 comes in - including not at all - die-hards will bitch about it, Valve has zero incentive to do it merely to placate their fans.

Ultimately what they do is what they do, and if you, the consumer, don't want to be disappointed by it, your best bet is to come at it without preconceived notions as to what it should be.

Kadayi
17-01-2012, 01:03 AM
Valve doesn't owe anybody anything.

I'm fairly sure when it comes to any other developer it's normally the opposite argument.

Nalano
17-01-2012, 01:06 AM
I'm fairly sure when it comes to any other developer it's normally the opposite argument.

THQ doesn't owe me another WH40k game.
Ubisoft doesn't owe me another AssCreed game.
EA doesn't owe me another whatever the fuck they do.

There is no debt to be paid.

Kadayi
17-01-2012, 01:23 AM
There is no debt to be paid.

It's not a debt, Valve promised that there would be more to the half-life series: -

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/108821-Valve-Says-Hang-In-There-For-Half-Life-2-Episode-3

If they've had a change of heart with regard to direction they should at least have the decency to inform the games fan base. People have been more than patient with them over the last five years tbh.

Nalano
17-01-2012, 03:06 AM
It's not a debt, Valve promised

Bush promised no new taxes.
Clinton promised to put people first.
Dubya promised to reduce government spending.
Obama promised hope and change.

FuriKuri!
17-01-2012, 11:13 AM
List of douchebags.

Your point, sir? ;)

That promises are often broken? Of course. But political comprimises behind running a large nation are by no means analogues to companies releasing entertainment products.

I've never understood the secrecy in the games industry, even when I was working there. Like they all think they're assembling nuclear weapons or something. I agree with Kadayi - there's no reason why they can't throw a small bone to their fans.

But of course, everything needs to be wrapped in some bloody ARG these days...

Flint
17-01-2012, 11:56 AM
I really do hope though that they're savvy enough to realise that after all this waiting, a 2-3 hour episode isn't really the best thing to go with and instead announce they've turned it into a fully-fledged HL3.

Kadayi
17-01-2012, 12:14 PM
That promises are often broken? Of course. But political compromises behind running a large nation are by no means analogues to companies releasing entertainment products.

Indeed. Comparisons have to be made like for like.

ALDI Nord
17-01-2012, 12:58 PM
Damn it! I just remembered there were some people protesting outside the Valve offices a while ago. They demanded news about HL3. Gabe gave them a tour, pizza and let them test DotA 2, however he gave no comment whatsoever regarding Half-Life.
http://kotaku.com/5831805/what-did-gabe-newell-say-to-the-half+life-3-protesters

Scumbag
17-01-2012, 01:53 PM
Been thinking for a while: What if Episode 3 turned out to be unsatisfactory in its content? They scrap the ideas and have to start from scratch.
They try for large open areas in the game, or some odd new idea not tried before. Then regardless of the technical wizardry they try to pull off the Source engine just cant hold up.
They attempt to make a new engine working with ideas incorparating the newest ideas and latest tech to push it along. It proves VERY hard to do and / or consoles are hard to utilise this tech with. What if there are some stupid politics holding development back such as one of the main coders being fired yet demanding that the code he created be gutted from the game?

"Hi guys! Little statement from Valve here.
Due to the pressure you put on us to give feedback in regards to what we are doing; We are stuck with the design side of the Half-Life series while the engine and human politics are causing development hell.
Thanks for listening!"

Its would be nice if they said something, but that does not go as far as saying they should.

TailSwallower
17-01-2012, 04:08 PM
More like, come join, come join our hopeless cause (http://soundcloud.com/handsometours-com/03-the-hope-that-house-built).

+10 Internets for the Future of the Left reference ("You need Satan more than he needs you" was my default signature for a while there).

Nalano
17-01-2012, 05:52 PM
But political comprimises behind running a large nation are by no means analogues to companies releasing entertainment products.

Yeah: Politicians have actual responsibilities to their constituencies, and still they lie*. Companies don't, so why the hell would you expect any different? Hell, what company hasn't told you their product was the best in the market at the lowest cost, even when such was demonstrably untrue? All advertising is calculated to lie about what they think they can get away with, and come as close to lying as possible on what they think they can't.

The irony here is that Valve never set a date, and in practice never has. So what promise have they broken? It's all just wishful thinking, here, and like I said in my first post, if you don't want to get your panties all up in a twist, stop expecting things.

*No politician honestly expects to make due on the simultaneous tax cuts and government handouts that he promised on the campaign trail

deano2099
17-01-2012, 07:05 PM
Yeah: Politicians have actual responsibilities to their constituencies, and still they lie*. Companies don't, so why the hell would you expect any different? Hell, what company hasn't told you their product was the best in the market at the lowest cost, even when such was demonstrably untrue? All advertising is calculated to lie about what they think they can get away with, and come as close to lying as possible on what they think they can't.
Just because it's hugely unlikely someone will pay up, doesn't mean that that it's impossible for them to owe you something.

I don't normally like the (sorry) entitled attitude of many gamers, but to be honest, if you say something is a three part series, leave the second part on a cliffhanger and then just don't bother to finish it (and refuse to comment on how or why) then... well no, the customer isn't entitled to an ending to the story but not giving them one does make you a dick.

It's also depressing from the point of view of someone who loves a good story - through books, TV, films or games... in TV especially we see creators desperate to finish telling their story, and getting cancelled, having it end prematurely, and trying whatever they can to get it picked up elsewhere, finish the tale in novels/comics or such... whereas Valve clearly care so little about their story they can't even be bothered to talk about it.

Nalano
17-01-2012, 07:44 PM
Just because it's hugely unlikely someone will pay up, doesn't mean that that it's impossible for them to owe you something.

I don't normally like the (sorry) entitled attitude of many gamers, but to be honest, if you say something is a three part series, leave the second part on a cliffhanger and then just don't bother to finish it (and refuse to comment on how or why) then... well no, the customer isn't entitled to an ending to the story but not giving them one does make you a dick.

It's also depressing from the point of view of someone who loves a good story - through books, TV, films or games... in TV especially we see creators desperate to finish telling their story, and getting cancelled, having it end prematurely, and trying whatever they can to get it picked up elsewhere, finish the tale in novels/comics or such... whereas Valve clearly care so little about their story they can't even be bothered to talk about it.

But while I can accept that it would be nice for them to finish their cliffhanger, they don't actually owe me that cliffhanger - we did not sign a contract; we didn't even shake hands - and especially on a deadline that exists only in my own head.

FuriKuri!
17-01-2012, 09:22 PM
Yes but you have to keep in mind this is a request for comment, not a request for action. I mean sure, they don't "owe" us one but there's such a thing as customer service and satisfaction.

Going back to the politicians - yeah they're beholden to their consituents in the run up to election. But after that who really gives a damn. You get that position and you are set for life, regardless of what you do during your term or if you get a second one. I mean you can be a war criminal these days and people will still shake your hand and throw you parties (cough).

Companies are more geared to the long term - unhappy customer = reduced chance of a sale. Kinda anyway. Gamers are indeed a fickle bunch.

My argument is more that I really don't understand what they gain from being so opaque anyway. All that nonsense about who owes what aside, is it really worth operating in such secrecy when all you make are games? I guess with Valve they're still feeling the sting in their arse from the whole TF2 business I suppose.

Flint
17-01-2012, 09:29 PM
I, and I think most people who are interested in this, would easily be satisfied with just a simple yes/no answer to the question "Are you currently working on something Half-Life related?"*. Rather than demanding them to start bombarding us with dates, trailers and whatnot way before it's due.


*with a bonus question of "ep3 or HL3?" if it's not too demanding

DigitalSignalX
17-01-2012, 09:39 PM
The comparison to politicians frankly doesn't seem that far apart in terms of public relations effecting sales (popularity). Every facet of a AAA companies public face is often just as scripted and sculpted as a political candidate. The how and when of every press release, trailer, sneak peak, demo, trade show booth etc is part of that system.

It seems logical to guess Valve has already long ago asked itself and answered on the topic of how and when to present info concerning the HL franchise. It's not some big oversight, "oops ya, we are [not] working on it, sorry for not saying so sooner."

This slow trickle and then drought of information the past couple years has been approved. This IS the plan. All we can do is guess because there is or is not a light at the end of it.

Nalano
17-01-2012, 09:59 PM
Yes but you have to keep in mind this is a request for comment, not a request for action.

It may be worded as the former, but it's clearly meant to be read as the latter.


Going back to the politicians - yeah they're beholden to their constituents in the run up to election. But after that who really gives a damn.

The constituents. And while legal recourse is execrably slow and long in coming, and the position is abused as a matter of course, these people are still supposed to be representative.


My argument is more that I really don't understand what they gain from being so opaque anyway.

Not a clue, but you can't say that it hasn't been their modus operandus all along.

Farcelet
18-01-2012, 05:52 AM
GOLLIES!

Although I too am a demanding man when it comes to the important matters of life and the internet, I can assure you of this : if Gabe Newell he-who-owes-so-much ever were to read this thread, he would SHOWER US ALL with the LOVING TEARS of HILARITY.

soldant
18-01-2012, 07:28 AM
It seems logical to guess Valve has already long ago asked itself and answered on the topic of how and when to present info concerning the HL franchise. It's not some big oversight, "oops ya, we are [not] working on it, sorry for not saying so sooner."
It seems to be a pretty bad policy though. I'll take the HL2 leak as an example. By looking at the game's state around the time of the link, it was painfully obvious to anybody that HL2 was not going to make its stated release date. It was clear that it would have been obvious well before the date. Valve kept on repeating the "30 September 2003" release date myth right into September. Valve only admitted it wasn't going to make it on the 23rd of September 2003 that it wasn't going to make that date. Most people had already suspected that it wouldn't make it, and the publisher Vivendi even stated that back in July 2003. Then the game leaked shortly afterwards in October, and it became blatantly obvious to the public that it wasn't anywhere near ready.

If that kind of communication strategy is Valve's plan, which amounts to "Just say anything even if it flies in the face of reason", then it's an incredibly bad plan. It's one thing to stay quiet and not hype your game, but it's another thing entirely to take a policy of entirely ineffective communication. You might say that the HL2 debacle was responsible for Valve's weird media blackout of the series, but this policy has really only turned up Post EP2. Also zero information is only slightly better than the ridiculous release date lie that Valve maintained throughout most of 2003. Is it really that hard to say "Yes, we are working on it, but no, we're not ready to release any information"?

Valve don't owe us anything, but it doesn't change the fact that people are going to feel disappointed if Ep3 never eventuates, especially given that Ep2 was left on a big cliffhanger and was all set for the sequel. We don't even know if Ep3 is under development or not. I don't like the attitude of "entitlement" (as much as I hate that term) that some people have towards Valve and Ep3, but I can fully understand that people are disappointed that we're getting nothing about Ep3.

Nalano
18-01-2012, 10:13 AM
It seems to be a pretty bad policy though. I'll take the HL2 leak as an example. By looking at the game's state around the time of the link, it was painfully obvious to anybody that HL2 was not going to make its stated release date. It was clear that it would have been obvious well before the date. Valve kept on repeating the "30 September 2003" release date myth right into September. Valve only admitted it wasn't going to make it on the 23rd of September 2003 that it wasn't going to make that date. Most people had already suspected that it wouldn't make it, and the publisher Vivendi even stated that back in July 2003. Then the game leaked shortly afterwards in October, and it became blatantly obvious to the public that it wasn't anywhere near ready.

If that kind of communication strategy is Valve's plan, which amounts to "Just say anything even if it flies in the face of reason", then it's an incredibly bad plan. It's one thing to stay quiet and not hype your game, but it's another thing entirely to take a policy of entirely ineffective communication. You might say that the HL2 debacle was responsible for Valve's weird media blackout of the series, but this policy has really only turned up Post EP2. Also zero information is only slightly better than the ridiculous release date lie that Valve maintained throughout most of 2003. Is it really that hard to say "Yes, we are working on it, but no, we're not ready to release any information"?

Valve don't owe us anything, but it doesn't change the fact that people are going to feel disappointed if Ep3 never eventuates, especially given that Ep2 was left on a big cliffhanger and was all set for the sequel. We don't even know if Ep3 is under development or not. I don't like the attitude of "entitlement" (as much as I hate that term) that some people have towards Valve and Ep3, but I can fully understand that people are disappointed that we're getting nothing about Ep3.

A company with Valve's reputation for keeping on schedule (https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time?) would do good not to make "we'll release in X months" statements.

soldant
18-01-2012, 11:13 AM
A company with Valve's reputation for keeping on schedule (https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time?) would do good not to make "we'll release in X months" statements.
I'm not advocating that. I'm just saying that it wouldn't kill Valve to say "Guys, we're working on it, and stop the fat jokes!" or "Guys, we're not working on it right now, and continue the fat jokes!"

My point with the HL2 release date issue thing was that they were announcing dates they quite obviously couldn't keep, and it became apparent that they couldn't manage it at the start of the year. Yet Valve didn't do anything until just before the release date was due to roll around. It's pretty obvious that for all the fun press releases they're actually not really good at communicating project progress, where "project progress" can be taken to mean "We are/aren't working on it."

Text_Fish
18-01-2012, 11:31 AM
Who are you trying to persuade Nalano? And what are you trying to persuade them of?

As far as I can tell, anybody who's joined the group did so on the offchance that it might be enough to cajole a tidbit of information out of Valve. It's a simple, innocent question from fan to creator and nobody needs to be told that it's not legally binding and might not work, but when all you have to do is hit the "Join Group" button what've you got to lose? It seems to me you've invested a lot more time arguing the futility of the project on this forum than 99% of the Steam Group will have invested joining.

Call us optimists if you will, but where's the harm in that?

Nova
18-01-2012, 12:54 PM
You opened a thread on a forum so expect discussion.
No harm in that either.

Text_Fish
18-01-2012, 02:01 PM
That's somewhat stating the obvious Nova, and I never asked Nalano to stop talking -- quite the contrary, I asked him several questions which he's free to answer if he so wishes.

Nova
18-01-2012, 04:40 PM
I'm guessing of course, but I think Nalano is just discussing without a greater agenda. He's not trying to persuade anyone.
Again, just my impression.

Jiiiiim
18-01-2012, 05:09 PM
Think I'm sort of on Nalano's side, only more so. I've been so much happier playing games after I stopped reading anything about games that haven't yet been released. No expectations to be dashed, no release dates to be disappointed by, pleasant surprise when a game suddenly appears from nowhere and it's good. I only wish more companies were this devoted to an air of mystery.

Nalano
18-01-2012, 08:44 PM
It seems to me you've invested a lot more time arguing the futility of the project on this forum than 99% of the Steam Group will have invested joining.

I like arguing.


Think I'm sort of on Nalano's side, only more so. I've been so much happier playing games after I stopped reading anything about games that haven't yet been released. No expectations to be dashed, no release dates to be disappointed by, pleasant surprise when a game suddenly appears from nowhere and it's good. I only wish more companies were this devoted to an air of mystery.

This.

Don't. Don't don't, don't believe the hype.

riadsala
18-01-2012, 09:34 PM
I like arguing.



This.

Don't. Don't don't, don't believe the hype.

I'm another +1! I haven't bothered following release schedules since Elemental.

Roufuss
18-01-2012, 09:46 PM
I only wish more companies were this devoted to an air of mystery.

Arkham City and Saint's Row 3 were just two games this year that were completely spoiled for me because of the hype and that the fact that, you're right, companies can't keep anything a secret. For Saint's Row 3 I only ever watched one trailer (the one they released right before the game released) and it ruined key moments I would have thought were great if they just let me discover them on my own.

So yea, I definitely agree with what you're saying. If you have to make a trailer, do so without spoiling any key elements of the plot or stop releasing news about every little thing involving your game.

I went into Amalur completely blind and really enjoyed the demo so I think I'm going to do the same as you, just not bother to read any previews / watch any trailers.

PeopleLikeFrank
18-01-2012, 09:51 PM
Movie trailers mostly seem to exist to spoil all the good bits, or make me completely disinterested by looking like every other stupid trailer out there (usually both). Game media seems determined to do largely the same. So yeah, I usually avoid everything to do with games I'm interested in.

If Valve didn't say a single word about Half-Life for another five years, then suddenly released HL3, it would be entirely ok with me. If they never said another word about it ever again, but just kept making other games, that would be entirely ok also. Valve know what they're doing when it comes to making games - I need no assurance from them.

vecordae
18-01-2012, 10:04 PM
The only thing a game publisher owes its customers is that the product they have sold them works as advertised on the box and, if it doesn't, that they will compensate them. Most game publishers and developers like to imagine that they have a good relationship with their customers, so they do try to get beyond that.

While I agree it would be nice to be able to tell folks what's going on with Half Life 3, I know that the employees at Valve aren't allowed to say anything to anyone outside of the company either way. Herr Newall has decided that there will be no outgoing information regarding the Half-Life series. There's a reason for this. I don't know what that reason is, but I can make a couple of pretty good guesses.

deano2099
19-01-2012, 02:36 AM
Don't. Don't don't, don't believe the hype.

100% with you on this one, but it's interesting that Episode 3 is probably the one case where this doesn't apply. The fact that the previous game is called "Episode 2" came out about 12 months after "Episode 1" and ends on a cliffhanger basically hypes Episode 3 all on its own...

soldant
19-01-2012, 02:49 AM
100% with you on this one, but it's interesting that Episode 3 is probably the one case where this doesn't apply. The fact that the previous game is called "Episode 2" came out about 12 months after "Episode 1" and ends on a cliffhanger basically hypes Episode 3 all on its own...
I kind of agree with this. Episode 2 set the stage quite clearly for Episode 3, and the understanding was that Episode 3 would be the last in the series. And, you know, they were supposed to be episodes to continue the story. There's no "hype" in saying that a game is or is not in development. There's a big difference in saying "Yes, we're working on it" and "Episode 3 will be released in November 2012 and will contain 8 hours of gameplay with 3 new characters, 2 new weapons, and incorporate new and exciting puzzles never before seen in a game, with new heights of interactive drama! Also, Gordon uncovers a really important plot point!"

Again I don't see how you get your hopes up or hype the game up just by acknowledging that it is in development. Hey guys, I'm working on a game right now. Are you excited? No? Well, okay. Did you know that id Software are also working on Doom 4? Not excited? Alright then. I don't think anybody can read "hype" out of "Yes, this is in development." We already have some idea what to expect with Episode 3 because it has to follow on from the previous cliff-hanger that Ep2 left us with (or it wouldn't really be an episode). Asking for a simple "yes" or "no" as to whether it's in development is not hyping a game.

Keep
19-01-2012, 03:13 AM
There is no debt to be paid.

What soldant just said has made me wanna look at this from a different angle to before:

Externally - in terms of delivering a product or being held accountable or fulfilling election promises - there's no debt.
But as storytellers - internally - to their audience as, y'know, an audience - yeah there is an actual debt on Valve's side. You can't gather people round and tell them a tale, and then quit three quarters way through right after knocking out a massive cliffhanger, and all's square on the books.

If this were a play performed circa 1910, there'd be riots in the theatre.

Nalano
19-01-2012, 04:14 AM
If this were a play performed circa 1910, there'd be riots in the theatre.

This has more in common with serials published in the newspaper than acts in a play, and some yet remain unfinished - riot or otherwise.

And the idea that saying "we are working on it" won't get people's hopes up and cause them to squee orgasmicly, look - they're squeeing just for that little bit already. If I were Valve, I wouldn't encourage them - which is kinda what I said in the first place (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?2700-A-Call-for-Communication&p=81073&viewfull=1#post81073) - because they'll never be satisfied.

Lightbulb
19-01-2012, 08:18 AM
What soldant just said has made me wanna look at this from a different angle to before:

Externally - in terms of delivering a product or being held accountable or fulfilling election promises - there's no debt.
But as storytellers - internally - to their audience as, y'know, an audience - yeah there is an actual debt on Valve's side.

No. A debt implies a legal duty that must be fulfilled.

The word I would choose for what your saying is "expectation".

"But as storytellers - internally - to their audience as, y'know, an audience - yeah there is an actual "expectation on the audiences side".

This is an important distinction.

Valve have left it on a cliff hanger (apparently, I am still waiting for the HL2 episodes bundles so haven't played them). People who have emotionally invested in the game will expect this dramatic tension to be resolved. This leads to a sense of expectation that it will be resolved.

The fact that it was left on a cliffhanger - as opposed to merely 'open for a sequel' - does imply that there will be a resolution. However there is no duty as far as I am concerned.

-----

A related point: If you give an inch you concede a mile. If Valve start saying what they are working on how long to you think it will be before there are STEAM groups asking for release dates, screen shots etc etc? Their enigmatic nature if anything helps as a marketing tool...

soldant
19-01-2012, 08:32 AM
A related point: If you give an inch you concede a mile. If Valve start saying what they are working on how long to you think it will be before there are STEAM groups asking for release dates, screen shots etc etc? Their enigmatic nature if anything helps as a marketing tool...
They've already given an inch, given that they did announce that there would be an Episode 3, and left Episode 2 on a cliffhanger. There was even a piece of concept art that was let slip. Then Valve just went silent on Ep3, instead going "Look, here's a sequel to Lef4Dead, which nobody asked for!" and making hats, and then making other people make hats.

deano2099
19-01-2012, 01:45 PM
This has more in common with serials published in the newspaper than acts in a play, and some yet remain unfinished - riot or otherwise.

The vast majority generally to the annoyance of the author after being cancelled by the higher-ups. I imagine there are very few that stopped because the author just didn't want to finish the story.

Keep
19-01-2012, 03:02 PM
No. A debt implies a legal duty that must be fulfilled.

Does it? Huh. I'm indebted to you for informing me of that.

I have no problem with Valve keeping quiet, I don't mind if Episode 3 doesn't come out for years (even never comes out), but "there is no duty" on their part to resolve the story? Hey knock knock who's there.

Lettuce.

Lettuce who, you're asking?

Oh, I've no duty to tell you the punchline. You wanna get mad? Sorry, you're not entitled to. I've the right to keep it to myself. You should just stoically accept this situation and not think I'm being unfair in any way.

Let Valve do what they want, I don't mind. But there is one sense in which there's a debt to be paid.


(Wouldn't it be great though, if that sort of debt was a legal one too? "Your honour, the defendant started telling a joke but spent half an hour covering the details and resolved the punch line with a weak pun only after much pestering from my client. We charge him with a shaggy dog story of the first degree.")

("Lettuce in, we're freezing out here." Ahh.)

Kadayi
19-01-2012, 06:29 PM
@Keep

A brilliant summary of the situation tbh.

Nalano
19-01-2012, 08:54 PM
The vast majority generally to the annoyance of the author after being cancelled by the higher-ups. I imagine there are very few that stopped because the author just didn't want to finish the story.

How does that in any way contradict the point I was making?

deano2099
19-01-2012, 10:18 PM
How does that in any way contradict the point I was making?

It doesn't. This is my new clever way of arguing with you by stealth agreeing with you.

More generally, I kind of see it this way - a mate buys you a drink at the end of the night, there's no debt there, you don't 'owe' him a drink and you're not obliged to buy him one, but by the same token, if you don't buy him a drink next time you're out somewhere then you're kind of a dick.