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View Full Version : SWTOR, is it still a WoW challenger?



CrazyEthan
06-02-2012, 08:51 AM
I noticed that problems of SWTOR are heading up,although it's still not released in China.
[/URL]http://technorati.com/entertainment/gaming/article/how-and-why-star-wars-the1/ (http://I noticed that problems of SWTOR are heading up,although it's still not released in China. [url]http://technorati.com/entertainment/gaming/article/how-and-why-star-wars-the1/ I do agree some of this guy's opinions. I have to remove it from my list for a wow challenger!)

I do agree some of this guy's opinions, but some others are just annoying!

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/168878/Star_Wars_The_Old_Republic_sub_numbers_already_dec lining__analyst.php (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/168878/Star_Wars_The_Old_Republic_sub_numbers_already_dec lining__analyst.php)

Gamasutra is telling us one more idea from an analyst and I'm just wondering whether SWTOR has a chance to stand against World of Warcraft.

777

R-F
06-02-2012, 09:47 AM
That document is hilarious. (http://www.dualshockers.com/2012/01/21/michael-pachter-concerns-over-star-wars-the-old-republic-are-overblown-ea-stocks-recover/)

Dude is a financial analyst with NO IDEA what he's talking about. Even WoW at release had about a 50% resubscribe rate, to expect SWTOR to hit 75%-90% is hilariously ludicrous. SWTOR is going to have between 10% to 20% at release, and that's it.

Nalano
06-02-2012, 10:18 AM
Man, anybody can be a financial analyst these days.

Gozuu
06-02-2012, 11:01 AM
That document is hilarious. (http://www.dualshockers.com/2012/01/21/michael-pachter-concerns-over-star-wars-the-old-republic-are-overblown-ea-stocks-recover/)

Dude is a financial analyst with NO IDEA what he's talking about. Even WoW at release had about a 50% resubscribe rate, to expect SWTOR to hit 75%-90% is hilariously ludicrous. SWTOR is going to have between 10% to 20% at release, and that's it.

WoW did offer something new, while SW:ToR offers the same experience coated in Star Wars theme.

Feldspar
06-02-2012, 11:51 AM
WoW is the Ford Model T of MMOs (you can have any race of hunter as long as it's a Nelf), it was released onto a mostly unrealised market and, while not being a great leap forwards in technology, did what it was supposed to do well enough, and shifted enough units for it to be ubiquitous. I really don't think we'll see one game wrest WoW from it's pedestal, the market has changed, I expect WoW's player base will quietly slope off to play other games, but none will be as big.

I think one of the main problems is the development time of the games; had it been released when development started SW:TOR would probably have been much bigger, but several years down the line things have changed. Are MMOs heading the same way as FPSs? Once upon a time there was Doom, now even first rate FPSs slip under my radar as there are just too many about.

Stormbane
06-02-2012, 11:56 AM
[/URL][URL]http://technorati.com/entertainment/gaming/article/how-and-why-star-wars-the1/ (http://I%20noticed%20that%20problems%20of%20SWTOR%20are%2 0heading%20up,although%20it%27s%20still%20not%20re leased%20in%20China.%20%20http://technorati.com/entertainment/gaming/article/how-and-why-star-wars-the1/%20%20I%20do%20agree%20some%20of%20this%20guy%27s% 20opinions.%20I%20have%20to%20remove%20it%20from%2 0my%20list%20for%20a%20wow%20challenger%21)


What was that about Piracy? I did not hear about any server code being leaked. I thought the article was just blatant speculation and doom saying with no real evidence. It's shoddy articles like this that makes games journalism seem a joke.

I played for about a week and I think the game is shit but I kind of hope it can retain enough of a player base to keep going. It will give Blizzard an added incentive to push out Titan.

Althea
06-02-2012, 12:08 PM
TOR was a challenger to WoW? In marketing, yes, but in the months before release - and now post-release - it seems to have faceplanted a bit.

Hirmetrium
06-02-2012, 01:13 PM
Wow (no pun intended) is that guy in the OP's link bitter.

First, it spills out like nerd rage. Yes, the sith warrior is a copy of the WOW warrior - why not try the powertech tank instead? It's a goddamn straw man argument.

Lack of innovation complaints - well, SWTOR has done one thing incredibly well, and that's a story driven MMO. It's successfully combined an actual, RPG, story driven narrative with an MMO in a way which no other one has done before. Denying that is stupid and foolish.

Finally, its one thing to complain about high review scores, quite another to then complain about bugs being overlooked - Skyrim stands as a shining pillar of an example in that case.

As for the TORtainic, people predicted doom when burning crusade was announced. Those same people probably ate their hats sometime in recent years, where WOW hit 11mil subs.

SWTOR will survive. It has the combined legions of ex-galaxies players, star wars fans, and relocated WOW/other MMO fans. People are enjoying it. If you don't enjoy it, shove off and play one of the many, many free to play games that are around.

SWTOR doom talking is old now. It is still the biggest, heavily marketed and driven MMO next to world of warcraft. It was, and still is, perhaps the only MMO capable of challenging WOW. I see nothing on the horizon that will even come close to it. I suspect subs will go up when Phantom menance 3D is out and the SWTOR adverts start playing in the trailers.

Finally, All this talk about "Guild wars 2" has honestly jaded me to the game already, as it sounds like it will be the best thing since sliced bread. The market is now over saturated and free to play is a way to up numbers for investors. I don't see Guild Wars 2 able to compete in the same way.

Nowadays, its just too easy to be "Cool for hatin' on games". I seriously suggest people step back and take a look at a bigger picture, one where the truth of the matter is that people are enjoying SWTOR and it has sold very, very well at a higher than normal price. It's still early days too - far too early for crappy articles like this to be written. Hopefully the world will just acknowledge SWTOR's numbers with a nod and move on, and the rest of us can get back to playing the games we want to rather than bitch about them.

I've ranted enough for one day.

deano2099
06-02-2012, 02:22 PM
It was never meant to be a 'WoW challenger'. It's a fundamental mis-understanding of the industry and audience to categorise things like that.

See, way back in the pre-WoW days there existed a type of gamer known as the 'career MMO' player. These people loved MMOs, moved from one to another as new ones launched, re-visiting old favourites from time to time, only ever playing one at a time, because they put so much time into each. This was the market for MMOs - to be a success you had to tempt subscribers away from their current game of choice.

Career MMO players still exist. Many have moved on to TOR for a while. But they don't make up a significant percentage of the audience any more. WoW appealed to a whole new bunch of players, they weren't MMO players, they were just gamers who saw an interesting game a decided to play it. The idea that WoW massively grew the MMO audience is misguided. WoW massively grew the WoW audience. They get bored and they move on, occasionally revisiting it. They're not desperately looking for a new MMO to replace WoW, they played it for varying amounts of time, but not for enough hours each week that they can't comprehend of a life without an MMO in it. They're just gamers.

The flip side of this is that you can be a hugely successful MMO without needing to steal away all of WoW's customers. The developers said at the time they weren't expecting TOR to do anywhere near WoW numbers. It appeals to a broader audience, like WoW did, and it'll find that audience and it seems to be doing just that.

It's only in MMOs that we have this attitude that playing one is mutually exclusive with playing another, it stems from the notion that people won't want to pay two subs fees at once (which is reasonable, but I don't think a hugely limiting factor for most players) but it's actually grounded in the notion of hardcore MMO gamers looking at MMOs and going 'how could you possibly fit in playing more than one at a time?' which is not an issue for 90% of players who are just putting in a few hours here and there, like with any other game.

No-one says every indie game is a failure because it doesn't do Minecraft numbers. Because you can be a huge hit and hugely profitable without getting anywhere near WoW's figures, or Minecraft's sales.

Rii
06-02-2012, 02:32 PM
It was never meant to be a 'WoW challenger'.

Sure it was. SWTOR is to WoW as MoH/Ao2/BF is to CoD. EA isn't looking to eke out a living off the crumbs, they want the prize. Enormous budgets with ambitions to match.

Hirmetrium
06-02-2012, 02:34 PM
I forgot to mention, recently I also read some joystiq comments that called out Blizzard on the latest patch - basically, its the last content patch for what looks like a year or so (give or take depending on how far out Panderia is). SWTOR has more new content in that time that WoW will have, so why subscribe? for people whom have already beaten the bosses, played through a few expansions worth of content and been through cataclysm, I can't see them sticking in one place anymore. Which means that their subscriptions are paying for the development of a new expansion. Which they then pay for. Nice.

I'll also tip my hat to deano, whom has handled the "WoW challenger" argument nicer than I have.

EDIT: Rii, the fact of the matter is that investors/publishers have bigger eyes and stomachs than developers seem to have. I imagine it depends on whom you ask. The point I'd take away from Deano's post is do EA make money from TOR? If yes, they have won - if no, they have lost.

Screwie
06-02-2012, 03:02 PM
I forgot to mention, recently I also read some joystiq comments that called out Blizzard on the latest patch - basically, its the last content patch for what looks like a year or so (give or take depending on how far out Panderia is). SWTOR has more new content in that time that WoW will have, so why subscribe? for people whom have already beaten the bosses, played through a few expansions worth of content and been through cataclysm, I can't see them sticking in one place anymore. Which means that their subscriptions are paying for the development of a new expansion. Which they then pay for. Nice.

Hence the Diablo 3 deal, perhaps?

deano2099
06-02-2012, 03:04 PM
Sure it was. SWTOR is to WoW as MoH/Ao2/BF is to CoD. EA isn't looking to eke out a living off the crumbs, they want the prize. Enormous budgets with ambitions to match.

Perhaps to an extent, obviously they're not going into it hoping they'll come second, but WoW has had over a decade of development, they know they can't compete with that right off, and they've said before than over a million subs would be making a nice profit. It's a starting point. Maybe from their they can grow, expand into other territories and so on, but I don't think they expect that necessarily. There's a quote from an interview here that sort of sums it up:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1072815-SWTOR-a-success/page5

The point is that if you even reached half of WoW's numbers then you're so far ahead of the rest of the pack that you're one of the biggest success stories in gaming. Even if you're not 'winning'.

Cooper
06-02-2012, 04:01 PM
That OP link mentions piracy?

How the fuck was TOR pirated? Is it? Have they already worked out server commands and already set up unofficial servers?

Or is it possible to download a pirate copy of the game data and subscribe using that, without paying the 50 charge for a copy?

Or is he talking shit?

Ignorant Texan
06-02-2012, 04:08 PM
Lack of innovation complaints - well, SWTOR has done one thing incredibly well, and that's a story driven MMO. It's successfully combined an actual, RPG, story driven narrative with an MMO in a way which no other one has done before. Denying that is stupid and foolish.

...



Finally, All this talk about "Guild wars 2" has honestly jaded me to the game already, as it sounds like it will be the best thing since sliced bread. The market is now over saturated and free to play is a way to up numbers for investors. I don't see Guild Wars 2 able to compete in the same way.



I agree with most of what was in this post, but have quibbles with the parts I've quoted.

Yes, TOR does have a story line, with cut-scenes and dialog choices, but Guild Wars and the expansions were plot-driven, too, with multiple cut-scenes per story mission. Hell, don't all MMOs have a story of some sort? It may be buried, but there usually is a reason why you start at 1, and moved to max level. What TOR has done differently is have explicit story-lines for all 8 classes, with inter-active dialog.

Considering that as of the summer of 2010, Guild Wars had sold 6.5 million copies(most recent data from a quick Google search), it isn't a stretch to think that GW2 will have multimillion sales at launch. So, while it may not "compete" in the same way, it still will easily be a Top-Ten seller, if not Top-Five, in the year it is finally released.

Moraven
06-02-2012, 05:12 PM
I think the big draw is, yes it has very similar and shares game mechanics and skills, but the game is new content. Think of it as a double/triple WoW expansion of content. People want new content. Blizzard even admits this is a problem with new content coming out to slow. I know if I tried TOR i would instantly like it for being 1) Star Wars 2) new content 3) familiar mechanics 4) story oriented questing 4) shooting blasters and wielding lightsabers.

That article is not well done. Some cry ramblings.
He posted 2 days before EA announced what they sold:
http://gamasutra.com/view/news/40044/The_Old_Republic_hits_17_million_subscribers_world wide.php

What piracy? Even so, WoW private servers are not in the millions of players.

Also, Michael Pachter makes wild random predictions that sound good and keeps him working. When he is wrong(most of the time) he "readjusts" his analysis to what has been fact. I think TOR will keep a lot of subscribers until WoW expansion or some other big MMO is released or the content is consumed to fast.

Skalpadda
06-02-2012, 05:27 PM
Wow, that article in the original post is rather bad, isn't it? Piracy? Greg Zeschuk was responsible for WAR? The entire games press is corrupt? This man is being paid money for his writing?

duff
06-02-2012, 05:41 PM
I've played some SWTOR, up till about level 41. Following the development I thought I would absolutely hate it, but its actually surprisingly good. Yes its basically WoW in space - but the story quests, companions, and story driven dungeons are making it pretty fun for me. Whether these things will continue to be a draw at endgame is the big question in my mind.

HlicesArerich
07-02-2012, 03:41 AM
it seems to have faceplanted a bit.
http://www.nicecarparts.info/songht2.jpghttp://www.nicecarparts.info/songgd.jpg
http://www.bookunion.org/12.jpg

duff
07-02-2012, 11:56 AM
it seems to have faceplanted a bit.
http://www.nicecarparts.info/songht2.jpghttp://www.nicecarparts.info/songgd.jpg
http://www.bookunion.org/12.jpg

Well that puts everything in a different light, your right!

Hirmetrium
07-02-2012, 02:52 PM
Ignorant Texan, if your going to state that guild wars had a story, I'll point you to LOTRO - which not only had an amazing storyline with cutscenes during loading, it felt really epic following the book/chapter quests. It was awesome. But Bioware takes it to another level - then falls at the endgame because they forgot about the story. but your right - all MMO's need a story, else they fall over a bit - well, I never felt a story in WoW when it first released and I leveled up my characters. Was a bit flat. I digress.

I think its great guild wars 2 is coming. I think it will be a good game. But every single MMO article, people mention it like its the second coming of jesus christ. It isn't. At this point, the MMO market is oversaturated and exhaustively free to play - guild war's has more direct competition than last time.

Also, will somebody please explain how SWTOR has faceplanted? its done exactly what I was expecting - be a really good, WoW mechanic inspired, bioware made MMO. I don't think its much worse than that.

Ignorant Texan
07-02-2012, 03:31 PM
Hirmentrium, fair enough. I think you missed my point, though. Both SWTOR and Guild Wars have their story-lines front and center, while many other MMOs, while they have a story of some sort, usually leave it in the background. So much so, that people will not notice that there is one. Not having played LOTRO, I can't comment on it, but can easily see it being as story driven as TOR and GW. So, we now have two examples of MMOs that precede TOR in story-missions with cut-scenes. What BioWare/Mythic has done is individualized the class story-lines. And for that, they deserve full credit.

I still don't see how the increased size of the F2P market will hurt Guild Wars 2 sales in any significant way. For an example, the fact that there are F2P shooters available hasn't appeared to taken many sales away from MW/CoD.

And, yes, I do think GW2 has an over-zealous crowd evangelizing for it. People I know who hated GW, have given TOR a pass because they think GW2 will be The One Game To Rule Them All(and possibly get them laid).

Anyways, yes, I am enjoying myself with TOR. As you said, it is a solid game, while needing some work to improve it. I do think people decided how they felt about it long before release. We are seeing examples of confirmation bias from both supporters and detractors(using the same numbers), and I doubt that is going to change. I certainly don't expect anything I say about it to influence people one way or another.

CrazyEthan
23-04-2012, 07:32 AM
Seems that it's going rotten this time.

icemann
23-04-2012, 08:50 AM
People said the same thing about Warhammer many years ago, of its potential to be a WoW killer and look how that went.

Hirmetrium
23-04-2012, 09:27 AM
Warhammer is the reason I can't sleep at night.

Has anybody jumped back into SWTOR yet? I rolled a new class, and the legacy stuff is quite cool, but still a little redundant. Also, it's staggering how everything costs half and million or a million credits. Seems the entire endgame became a grind in very little time, and the gear tiers are already stacking up.

Hypernetic
23-04-2012, 11:18 AM
SWTOR was a failure in my eyes. I don't care about the financial aspect of it, I'm talking about from a gameplay perspective. Whether TOR is profitable for EA is irrelevant to me, I'm a gamer and I own no stock in EA.

I was in the TOR beta for a very long time, I was one of the original testers. As the beta progressed it became quite obvious that the game was going to be a flop (again, in terms of fun factor for ME). I canceled my pre-order and decided to wash my hands of it. Shortly after a bunch of my old WoW buddies said they were going to be getting the game and that we'd all be playing together. I missed hanging out with them so I figured "what the hell" and ordered it again.

Long story short, we all quit the game months ago. At first people said "let's wait for 1.2 and see if it gets better", but we didn't even come close to making it that far. We cleared everything on nightmare mode without breaking a sweat and just weren't having fun. The PVP wasn't nearly good enough to keep people around either. Everything at the core of the game was terrible, raiding, PVP, crafting, etc, were all poorly designed.

Story and Voice overs: Not innovative or exciting in the least. With the exception of one or two classes, most of the stories are extremely lame and cliched. You can sumarize most of them with one sentence "Weakling becomes powerful, gets betrayed, and then gets revenge.". That's not hyperbole either, it's literally as deep as the stories go. Bioware managed to convince people that TOR is the first MMO with a story in it, which is unequivocally false. WoW and most other MMOs are full of story, it's just not read to you by a famous voice actor.

At the end of the day the individualized story was one of the games biggest downfalls for me.


*SPOILER*

At the end of the Sith Inquisitor story you are an all powerful Sith with a seat on the Dark Council. You command entire star fleets and armies in a great battle with another Dark Council member just prior to gaining your seat. You even develop a super weapon capable of destroying an entire fleet in a single blast.

Then you hit 50 and you are just some schmuck running errands for some dude on a frozen rock in the middle of nowhere. You still fly around in some crappy ship that is given to lowly apprentices. You are a nobody. You are a nobody in pretty much every MMO, but that is intentional in other MMOs. In TOR they build up your character as this great hero/villain destined to change the Galaxy, but then you finish the story and realize you are just a clone of everyone else.


TL;DR: The game sucks horribly and bioware should have made KOTOR 3 instead.

KauhuK
23-04-2012, 11:36 AM
I want to believe that Guild Wars 2 delivers at least partly what is promised. I might never understand people who think GW2 will be something incredible.

Free-to-play mmos are pretty dull as are some commercial mmos. I didn't get into wow and aion got boring pretty fast. I might dive back into EVE some day but for now the only mmo I'm looking forward to is GW2. I have pre purchased GW2 so that I could get into the beta events. While Guild Wars (the first with its expansions) was not really a mmo, it was my first online rpg. I admit that it was not as huge as wow and the heavy instancing made it a bit lonely experience but when GW was released that was the limit of the technologies of its time. I still liked what arenanet did with gw and seeing how gw2 has been shaping up I hope it meets my not so high hopes of what it will be. The beta will hopefully prove me that anet still has the talent.

I did play some Tera online beta and while it was good looking for a mmo the content started repeating very quickly. Of course not all the content has yet been delivered to the game and there will be more interesting stuff in the future. But in the end I have put my bet on GW2 and hope it will pay. This remains to be seen.


EDIT: Oh crap, I went a bit offtopic. I havent touched SWTOR because I've been losing hope on bioware and reading the player experiences of beta and then the final release it seemed to be a classic mmo made with mold that wow shaped. As I didnt really get into wow I just skipped swtor and kept waiting for GW2. Then came Tera from the bushes with its better combat and interesting world. But after trying the beta it was clear that Tera wasn't for me.

deano2099
23-04-2012, 12:13 PM
Part of me kinda hopes it fails, as it'd then be an obvious move for Bioware to re-purpose the content into an actual single-player game, taking out any of the really grindy stuff and cleaning up the story so it has a proper end-point... I'd buy it.

Winged Nazgul
23-04-2012, 01:09 PM
WoW is an aberration. MMO's have always been and continue to be games developed for and played by specific niche audiences. There will never be another MMO as successful world-wide as WoW not even Blizzard's upcoming Titan project.

Just my two cents.

Kevin
24-04-2012, 12:52 PM
See, way back in the pre-WoW days there existed a type of gamer known as the 'career MMO' player. These people loved MMOs, moved from one to another as new ones launched, re-visiting old favourites from time to time, only ever playing one at a time, because they put so much time into each. This was the market for MMOs - to be a success you had to tempt subscribers away from their current game of choice.

Career MMO players still exist. Many have moved on to TOR for a while. But they don't make up a significant percentage of the audience any more. WoW appealed to a whole new bunch of players, they weren't MMO players, they were just gamers who saw an interesting game a decided to play it. The idea that WoW massively grew the MMO audience is misguided. WoW massively grew the WoW audience. They get bored and they move on, occasionally revisiting it. They're not desperately looking for a new MMO to replace WoW, they played it for varying amounts of time, but not for enough hours each week that they can't comprehend of a life without an MMO in it. They're just gamers.

As a "career MMO player" (veteran of EQ1, Lineage 2, DAoC, and Ragnarok), I'd say the reason TOR didn't appeal to us is because a lot of the features Bioware was touting weren't actually things we were looking for in an MMO. Personally, I dislike MMO stories that tell of how your PC is "the Chosen One" since it sort of runs opposite of the philosophy of MMOs, the idea that you are simply one guy on a server who has to make a name for him or herself rather than the center of the universe (as much as I disagree with Yahtzee, his review of Age of Conan encapsulates my feelings on MMOs quite nicely).

I mean, Bioware was kind of developing the wrong genre of game if they were designing it so that the player can play his or her own self-contained story apart from the rest of the community.

If a developer wanted to usurp WoW, I think they should look to EVE. Not as a model, however, but as an inspiration. It's probably the only MMO whose subscriber count is only going up, after all, and I think it's due to the fact that it takes full advantage of the fact that it's a massively multiplayer game in every sense of the word (though in truth, the game and its dedicated community frighten the hell out of me, which has warded me off despite my lengthy history with MMOs).

sendmark
24-04-2012, 01:50 PM
GW2 may not topple WoW, but it's certainly going to advance an alternative template and useful ideas for challenging WoW. Death by papercut.

Although saying that anyone who thinks WoW is a pinnacle that will never be topped is mistaken imo, far too many holes in its model which can be improved upon and there is still plenty of room for the number of mmo gamers to grow. Blizzard's next mmo will surpass it for a start. I'm also not convinced there are a significant amount of people who play WoW and are not looking for anyone else, even as casual players, certainly not been my experience revisiting the game or seen any stats to back that up.

Hypernetic
24-04-2012, 06:34 PM
GW2 may not topple WoW, but it's certainly going to advance an alternative template and useful ideas for challenging WoW. Death by papercut.

Although saying that anyone who thinks WoW is a pinnacle that will never be topped is mistaken imo, far too many holes in its model which can be improved upon and there is still plenty of room for the number of mmo gamers to grow. Blizzard's next mmo will surpass it for a start. I'm also not convinced there are a significant amount of people who play WoW and are not looking for anyone else, even as casual players, certainly not been my experience revisiting the game or seen any stats to back that up.

I don't know why people keep talking about GW2 in this way. Nothing I've seen about it looks terribly new or innovative at all. It looks like a fun/solid game, but it's not some paradigm shift in MMO design.


It's funny that people keep talking about WoW dying too, I'm willing to be WoW sees increased subscribers numbers (i.e. higher than ever before) with MoP. There are a lot of new things they are adding for casual or more solo oriented players on top of the new raids, PVP, new class, new talent system, etc, etc, etc. They are also releasing it world wide (including China) at around the same time (whereas something like WotLK took years to be ready for China).

deano2099
24-04-2012, 07:50 PM
I'm also not convinced there are a significant amount of people who play WoW and are not looking for anyone else, even as casual players, certainly not been my experience revisiting the game or seen any stats to back that up.

Of course they're looking for something else. Just that something else won't necessary be an MMO

Nalano
24-04-2012, 07:54 PM
I don't know why people keep talking about GW2 in this way. Nothing I've seen about it looks terribly new or innovative at all. It looks like a fun/solid game, but it's not some paradigm shift in MMO design.

The group system, perhaps. Or the retirement of the holy trinity. Or scaling the character to the zone...

But as for WoW, its last add-on failed to keep hope alive, and its next add-on is unlikely to turn the tide. The problem, however, is that "WoW-killer" and bullshit terminology like that was wrong when it was coined and is wrong now. MMOs aren't a zero-sum game, and thinking that they are just makes WoW-clones.

Hypernetic
24-04-2012, 07:56 PM
The group system, perhaps. Or the retirement of the holy trinity. Or scaling the character to the zone...

But as for WoW, its last add-on failed to keep hope alive, and its next add-on is unlikely to turn the tide. The problem, however, is that "WoW-killer" and bullshit terminology like that was wrong when it was coined and is wrong now. MMOs aren't a zero-sum game, and thinking that they are just makes WoW-clones.

It looks more like a refined GW1 than a revolutionary MMO that will change everything forever, as some people seem to think.

meh.

As for WoW, time will tell. I agree with your last point though.

Nalano
24-04-2012, 08:21 PM
It looks more like a refined GW1 than a revolutionary MMO that will change everything forever, as some people seem to think.

I can tell you that, in game design terms, it has little in common with GW1. GW1 can barely be called an MMO; more like a multiplayer game with persistent characters.

And I think you're being a bit harsh with the "it needs to be revolutionary." No, it just needs to be evolutionary.

Hypernetic
25-04-2012, 12:06 AM
I can tell you that, in game design terms, it has little in common with GW1. GW1 can barely be called an MMO; more like a multiplayer game with persistent characters.

And I think you're being a bit harsh with the "it needs to be revolutionary." No, it just needs to be evolutionary.


Hold on, I never said that. I said that is what I see people saying on various message boards. I think GW2 looks fun, especially the PVP and am hoping I can get into the beta to try it out.

I just keep reading people saying things akin to GW2 being the savior of MMOs and this and that about it being a "game changer" so to speak. I simply don't think that's true.

Again, from what I've seen it looks like it will be a good game, I just think people are going a bit overboard with the hype about how revolutionary it will be.

Nalano
25-04-2012, 02:20 AM
Again, from what I've seen it looks like it will be a good game, I just think people are going a bit overboard with the hype about how revolutionary it will be.

Yeah, but when is that ever not the case? Treat it as the background noise that it is.

fionny
25-04-2012, 09:28 AM
SWTOR epic dissapointment, GW2 has hope but is far from perfect, will buy, at least I wont have to waste money each month on a sub.

SWTOR must be getting a little worried given the free time they are bandying about. I mean they gave all existing players 30days free, and then gave people who had cancelled their subs a week free... then a week after that they emailed saying if i subbed now they would give me a free month... for a game so new that smells a bit desperate.

The end game was just so dull, I see the guys in my community playing the same 2 raids (now 3) once each a week... sure there are hard modes and nightmare modes but it still the same damn thing.... why would you pay people for that. Surely you could play halflife2 over and over again and get more value for money.

The PvP Warzones was marginally better then other mmo's but was still pretty much a cut and paste effort and the open world PVP was shit on epic levels... I mean it was really bad really really really bad. Say what you will about WAR but they had a lot of things right with their open pvp, a nice line of progression with a solid aim (sure the end was pve but still getting there was fun).

Nalano
25-04-2012, 10:00 AM
(sure the end was pve but still getting there was fun).

This is what killed WAR, AoC and Rift for me, yet ironically kept WoW alive for six months longer than it had any right to be.

WAR had great RvR... until you hit levelcap and had no way to progress but raiding. AoC had great FFAPvP... until you hit levelcap and had no way to progress but raiding. Rift had great PvPvE... until you hit levelcap and had no way to progress but raiding.

WoW stayed alive, funny enough, not because you had alternative progression paths, but because raiding in WotLK was so patently easy you could do it drunk and often did.

fionny
25-04-2012, 01:00 PM
As of yet WAR had been the only MMO that kept me long term, this was purely because of the RvR system so much was right:

Tiers = Great Idea (chicken was fun :P)
RvR Lakes = Great Idea
Castles, Fort, City = Great idea (if laggy as all hell)
Getting to the King being PvE = Bad idea.

I played WAR for nearly a year, since i stopped no mmo has kept me playing past first month, some even less :P