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Bhazor
12-02-2012, 12:56 AM
So I've been playing alot of Civ IV lately. I've always 4x games and the Fall From Heaven 2 mod in particular. But lately I've been getting bullied in school for playing these because all the cool kids are playing hardcore political sims like Victoria and Europa Univarlis. As the girls flushed my head in the toilet again I wondered where would I start in a market that has become so surprisingly crowded with seemingly half of Paradox games fitting the description.

So any suggestions for a decent gateway political sim which does all the deep simulation and so on but still manages to be user friendly or at least includes a useful tutorial.

Nalano
12-02-2012, 12:59 AM
Fate of the World, perhaps?

It's certainly political.

Heliocentric
12-02-2012, 01:29 AM
Most politics games except Democrapy (Democracy) forget that most voters are stupid, swayed by extreme opinions and impossible promises. Tropico (i prefer 3) doesnt forget. But if your voters mum starved to death because their wasn't enough food, and no cheap housing(she is retired and you don't support a pension system) near the food sources he'll remember.

The game that works small but has a thousand justifications for its events beats an abstracted mathematical model of "this thus this". Tropico (I prefer 3) doesn't feel like it judges or condemns any actions, want sweatshops pumping out cheap exports? Your rivals in the intellectual faction will struggle to oppose you when the island lacks education facilities and their faction is starved of new members.

Its a class above the maths models guys because you can watch the problem playing out and see where the starvation (or crime of various sources of dissatisfaction victims live/lived.

Nalano
12-02-2012, 02:55 AM
Most politics games except Democrapy (Democracy) forget that most voters are stupid, swayed by extreme opinions and impossible promises.

Most voters aren't swayed by those. Most voters aren't swayed by anything. It's a relatively small margin of voters that don't already have their minds made up before the campaign begins.

Mantracker
12-02-2012, 04:50 AM
One of the best political games I've played is Conflict: Middle East Political Simulator (http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/24764/Conflict+-+Middle+East+Political+Simulator.html)

"
Put into the role of the new Israeli Prime Minister in January 1997 just after the previous one was assassinated, you are thrust into the corrupt world of fantasy Middle Eastern politics."
Whatever you may think of Israeli politics IRL, the game is very simple yet compelling.

Nalano
12-02-2012, 06:05 AM
One of the best political games I've played is Conflict: Middle East Political Simulator (http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/24764/Conflict+-+Middle+East+Political+Simulator.html)

"
Put into the role of the new Israeli Prime Minister in January 1997 just after the previous one was assassinated, you are thrust into the corrupt world of fantasy Middle Eastern politics."
Whatever you may think of Israeli politics IRL, the game is very simple yet compelling.


"Yes, the way to win the game is by being the last stable country in the Middle East."

Yeah, no.

squirrel
12-02-2012, 08:49 AM
We and Japaneses have tons of those games, mostly in turn-based strategy. We have Three Kingdoms period (westerners called it Three Kingdoms, but actually all three monarchs declared themselves emperor, believing that they would eventually united the whole nation under one's sovereign. Turned out one long established gentry family conquered the southwestern state, then deposed its own regime, then conquered the remaining southeastern state. Stupid history). Japanese has Warring States period.

Of course every generation has at least one war to experience, throughout our civilization. The above two eras are just two of infinitely many. Koei's Genghis Khan, you should not miss. But this is not democracy game, it's all about command and conquer.

Democracy is just a fantasy, enjoying it in games is great, but dont try to promote it to people under non-democratic regimes pls.

Nalano
12-02-2012, 09:21 AM
Democracy is just a fantasy, enjoying it in games is great, but dont try to promote it to people under non-democratic regimes pls.

For all we complain, democracy ain't half bad. You should try it sometime.

squirrel
12-02-2012, 09:42 AM
For all we complain, democracy ain't half bad. You should try it sometime.

Dont get me wrong I think democracy is great. That's why I said it's fantasy. Reality is another thing.

In 1911 Revolution we were excited to topple the imperial regime in just less than one single year: the revolution broke out in October 1911 and the Qing emperor abdicated on 12 February 1912. We all thought that, how easy it would have been to establish a democratic regime, only to soon realize that we were then in a civil war-torn state for about 4 decades, one whole generation's time wasted.

If you are already in democracy, treasure it. If you are not, try to dream about it in afterlife.

Okay I am off-topic. Let's talk back games. I hate to, playing as a leader, to have my favorite decision being veto by the populace. It's just retard.

Bhazor
12-02-2012, 12:03 PM
Tropico (i prefer 3) doesnt forget. But if your voters mum starved to death because their wasn't enough food, and no cheap housing(she is retired and you don't support a pension system) near the food sources he'll remember.

The game that works small but has a thousand justifications for its events beats an abstracted mathematical model of "this thus this". Tropico (I prefer 3) doesn't feel like it judges or condemns any actions, want sweatshops pumping out cheap exports? Your rivals in the intellectual faction will struggle to oppose you when the island lacks education facilities and their faction is starved of new members.

Its a class above the maths models guys because you can watch the problem playing out and see where the starvation (or crime of various sources of dissatisfaction victims live/lived.

I do like the Tropico games but I don't consider them a politcal sim as much as a city builder or modern day Patrician. I should have been more specific. I'm basically asking for the Europa Univeralis style "Maths model" game with the best interface or tutorial. Something that has a campaign with scenarios focusing on individual aspects of the game would be ideal.


One of the best political games I've played is Conflict: Middle East Political Simulator (http://www.abandonia.com/en/games/24764/Conflict+-+Middle+East+Political+Simulator.html)

"
Put into the role of the new Israeli Prime Minister in January 1997 just after the previous one was assassinated, you are thrust into the corrupt world of fantasy Middle Eastern politics."
Whatever you may think of Israeli politics IRL, the game is very simple yet compelling.


Good god. What is with the endless unmutable adverts on abandonia? It didn't prewarn me when Kim Kardashian was about to appear and I ended up vomiting blood. I'm deathly allergic to attention seeking hookers you see.


Okay I am off-topic. Let's talk back games. I hate to, playing as a leader, to have my favorite decision being veto by the populace. It's just retard.

Thank you. Lets get back to whats important.

R-F
12-02-2012, 01:34 PM
Europa Universalis 3 is probably the easiest to dive into from the start. Victoria 2 second and Hearts of Iron 3 a far, far third. Ignore all the side games based off the engines for now, these are the primarily supported ones.

Bhazor
12-02-2012, 02:14 PM
@ R-F

Thanks. Thats just what I wanted to know.

Any idea on how accessible the Crusader Kings games are? I like the idea of simulating thousands of petty court rivalries and preserving your family but I haven't tried the demo for 2 yet.

Grizzly
12-02-2012, 02:24 PM
@ R-F

Thanks. Thats just what I wanted to know.

Any idea on how accessible the Crusader Kings games are? I like the idea of simulating thousands of petty court rivalries and preserving your family but I haven't tried the demo for 2 yet.

I think the best answer for that would just to be to try the demo.

Kandon Arc
12-02-2012, 06:44 PM
@ R-F

Thanks. Thats just what I wanted to know.

Any idea on how accessible the Crusader Kings games are? I like the idea of simulating thousands of petty court rivalries and preserving your family but I haven't tried the demo for 2 yet.

Speaking as someone who regularly plays Hearts of Iron 3, Victoria 2, Europa Universalis III and the original Crusader Kings; from the demo, Crusader Kings 2 seems to be the most user friendly.

I think the main problem with all these games (for me at least) is not so much the mechanics (which do take a couple of trial and error games to understand), but the fact that you are given very little direction, compared to the Total War games, particularly Shogun 2. To use the CK2 demo as an example, you can pick the Duke of Bohemia, but once you're in the game there's very little indication of what you should be doing. I think this is still the part PI haven't really done much improvement on over the years.

Voon
13-02-2012, 03:49 AM
I second Tropico 3, for starters. Paradox games (or, at least, published by them) tend to have more advanced, sophisticated political, economical and strategic gameplay mechanics.

Yachmenev
13-02-2012, 09:11 AM
I tried to play a bit of Europa Universalis III yesterday, but yikes, that game is hard. I started with Sweden and found out they start with a lousy economy, and that I had no idea about how to turn it around. :)

Anthile
13-02-2012, 09:31 AM
Doesn't Sweden start as vassal of Denmark? Probably not a very good way to start even though the strategical position is excellent later in the game. On the upside, Denmark will protect you in case someone should be bothered to attack you.
I suppose you should first focus on building up your economy and establish a center of trade in Stockholm. Once you are wealthy enough you can try to break out of the PU and conquer Denmark and Norway to form Scandinavia. Doing that will grant you a ridiculous amount of cores, including Iceland and, I think, Greenland - which makes for a great gateway for colonizing the Americas. On the other hand you may look for new provinces east of your position, if Novgorod and co are sufficiently weakened by the Golden Horde. It's in your best interest that Russia is never formed.

Fede
13-02-2012, 09:14 PM
@Yachmenev: I'd actually suggest you not to start with the grand campaign, but with a strong country on one of the other scenarios. Or you could try playing with Spain around 1520.

If you have problems managing the economy, remember that your monthly balance isn't as important as your yearly balance (the 1st of Jan you get a surplus income): so don't worry if you lose some money every month, as long as your yearly balance is positive (if you place your mouse over the money icon on the top left, a tooltip with monthly and yearly balance appears). If you're still having problems, just mint money (http://www.paradoxian.org/eu3wiki/Minting#Causes_of_inflation). Allowing inflation to rise is bad long term, but to learn the game it's fine; I mean, you don't need to play optimally. :)