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R-F
12-02-2012, 02:32 PM
Just wanted a place to have a proper discussion on this, since the comment's section is just awkward as hell, and this article is rage-inducing enough to deserve a place on these forums.

Here's a link and the full quote of the article:- (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-11-why-devs-owe-you-nothing)

Last week, 10,000 people took to Steam to play Half-Life 2 as part of a gentle protest against Valve's silence on the development of the series' next instalment. It's part of an ongoing campaign that rose from the background noise of forum discontent to deliver an open letter to Valve (http://steamcommunity.com/groups/messagetovalve).

"The lack of communication between Valve and the Half-Life community has been a frustrating experience," it reads. "Fans of the Half-Life series have waited years for a word on when the franchise will return. [...] Waiting patiently for over four years is a daunting task [...] fans should at least be acknowledged in some way, regardless of developmental plans for the next Half-Life project."


Of course, you don't have to go far on the internet, much less in gaming, to encounter egregious displays of self-entitlement. That particular mixture of naivety and self-absorption is the principle feature of an X-Factor generation, regularly flattered into thinking their views are of vital importance by cheap marketing initiatives to "drive engagement" - rhetorical questions on Facebook; the Like button; text to vote now! Why not get on YouTube and unload your soul into the digital ether? You are worth it, you beautiful snowflake.


The result of this ego-frotting evil is a surge of righteous individualism that is at once incredibly socialised and gallingly self-centred. People appear offended that anyone else has the temerity to exist on their internet. People bark death threats in comments threads when a review knocks down the Metacritic of a game they haven't even played. People decry their favourite musicians when they dare to try new genres or, God forbid, make a living. People, man. What a bunch of jerks.

The misapprehension by consumers that they're owed something by creators is hardly a new phenomenon, nor unique to gaming. And yet there are reasons why gaming, and its increasing transformation from product to service, creates a peculiar challenge for developers trying to negotiate the gauntlet between popular appeal and enslavement to the populace. Gamers, increasingly, do expend creativity and money in shaping the digital worlds they inhabit - and, unlike in other media, there are often valid reasons for them to feel a degree of ownership over the games they play.


MMOs have it worst. Not only do they have to continuously appease fans to keep their coffers full, but the kind of game that emerges from a full server is very much dependent on what the players make of it. There's no better illustration of this than in CCP's volte-face regarding the governance of its player-driven space MMO EVE Online. Without that community, CCP doesn't have a game at all, not only in the sense that it wouldn't be able to generate revenue from a playerbase of zero, but because the entire game is reliant on its players to form corporations - the self-organising Machiavelli-factories that dictate the political machinations and economy of the entire galaxy.


CCP fell afoul of its audience because it forgot that it was in partnership with them to create the game. Instead, the developer embarked on a course of action that was perceived to be an aggressive and manipulative way to monetise the playerbase. This did not go down well. "Why should we pay a gazillion space groats for an avatar's monocle?" wondered hardcore spacenerds. "This is our game!"


And CCP, belatedly, conceded that this was the case. Here's the money shot from CEO Hilmar Veigar Pétursson's apologetic letter to fans (http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2672): "The greatest lesson for me is the realisation that EVE belongs to you, and we at CCP are just the hosts of your experience. When we channel our passion for EVE constructively, we can make this vision a reality together."
He talks about the vital importance of collaboration with the community, and regrets CCP's recent estrangement from it. He also talks of digital items, and how it is the purchase of these, rather than subscriptions, which will become the dominant model of funding for MMOs. It's another important area in which players' ownership of a game is ambiguously defined. Legally, it is usually the developer that owns your goods, no matter how much real world cash you splurged on them. In buying the Flaming Dong-Sword of Ultrawang, you are buying nothing but access to an item that the company owns in perpetuity - and can withhold at a moment's notice

This is increasingly a legally tortuous area, not least because it can be exploited for entirely criminal purposes. Here's an article (http://www.edge-online.com/features/how-game-hacking-became-industry) I wrote for Edge a while back, after I went to meet Taiwan's biggest MMO publisher, Gamania. They have a problem with hacking, as many MMO companies do - but the thieves aren't after credit card data; they're after your sweet loot, which they then resell. It's an organised, industrialised criminal enterprise which is worth millions of actual real world bucks. And there's not much the authorities can do about it because stealing something that doesn't actually exist isn't a crime with the same international heft as credit card fraud.


Players' very real investment in games can end in digital disaster as a result of entirely legal shenanigans, too. Even fluffy, cuddly PopCap impoverished its players by closing down Baking Life (http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fbakinglife) at the end of January, consigning any "Zip Cash" bought with real money to the void known as John Riccitiello's Cryogenics Fund. The terms and conditions are essentially a giant blinking LOL to player investment - as are, PC Gamer pointed out (http://www.eurogamer.net/www.pcgamer.com/2012/01/24/popcap-killing-off-baking-life-not-offering-refunds-or-exchanges-for-customers-money/), the terms of League of Legends. Buyer beware.


How long will players stand for it? Valve is perhaps aware that they won't. Although the legal status of virtual items isn't explicitly described in Steam's terms of service, or in the Steam Trading guidelines, by encouraging players to submit hats and weapons to be sold via Team Fortress 2, Valve is fostering a direct collaboration with the community - one which sees contributors reimbursed via royalties on the sale of their kit.


"It benefits us because it grows the community, right?" said Valve's Grand Poobah, Gabe Newell, speaking to Gamasutra in 2010 (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/31109/InDepth_Team_Fortress_2). "Team Fortress 2 is a better product because we have community contributions in it. They're going to go off and listen to what the community says about how they can do that better, and we can draft along, as we both benefit."


Being so involved in the game's continued profitability for Valve, the TF2 community has a more legitimate mindshare in the direction of TF2 than do players of other Valve games. It's hard to see how Half-Life 2 players, for instance, continuously contribute to the profitability of Valve, or indeed help to increase potential profits of Half-Life 3 - except in the tangential sense that they have sustained a low-level marketing buzz around the series.

HL2 isn't a service. Fans aren't asked for repeat payment, and they are under no obligation to support Valve in any way. When they complain it has somehow been exhausting to be a fan, it is baffling. It is extremely easy to be a fan; you don't even need to get out of your chair. And yet, that sense of entitlement remains, fed by flattery from social media, by the ongoing confusion over digital rights, by the increasing collaboration of developers and communities.

I can understand the desire. I have played HL2 through to completion more times than I have bothered to count and I never tire of writing about how much I love it. In the years I've worked in this industry, only Gabe Newell's awesome presence has reduced me to gibbering mid-interview. Needless to say, like the fans who signed that open letter, I will certainly play whatever instalment Valve issues next, whenever it emerges. But I also recognise that my desire has no impact, nor should have, on Valve's PR policy, much less its development schedule - and it would be naive to think that the two are unrelated, as the open letter does.


That demand, like the DDOS attack (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-10-22-minecraft-hit-by-ddos-attack) on Minecraft because its developers weren't seen to be working hard enough, like the one-star ratings (http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/wheres-my-water/id449735650?mt=8) for a great app that asks you to pay a dollar for a massive expansion pack, like the complaints (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1986604) that an erroneously low sale price should be reinstated because a few lucky people snapped up a game for a pittance, like the death threats (http://kotaku.com/5873587/developer-receives-death-threats-over-new-devil-may-cry-game) to Ninja Theory for changing a character model... Like these things, that demand is part of an unseemly wail of self-righteousness issuing from the feed-me-more generation, unabashed by its over-consumption and tutored by the media in narcissism.


Of course I want to know more about Episode 3 or Half-Life 3, or whatever it may be that Valve pulls out of its hat. But even in these times of community collaboration and digital ownership, the Half-Life series remains Valve's and Valve's alone. It is entirely its prerogative. Maybe, just maybe, it will respond to the baiting, sensing a goodwill windfall - it is a company renowned for spontaneous acts of generosity, after all. But just because someone's willing to give, doesn't make it polite to ask.


Please note this doesn't include the captions on the pictures such as this:-

Oh go on, Valve. Tell us about Half-Life 3. Go on, go on, go on. Oh please. It's my birthday soon. Hello, Valve? Hello-oo? Wankers. I hate you! Oh, please tell me. I'll cry! etc.

Yes, that is an actual caption in the article.

For me, the best part in the article is this bit:-

HL2 isn’t a service. Fans aren’t asked for repeat payment, and they are under no obligation to support Valve in any way. When they complain it has somehow been exhausting to be a fan, it is baffling. It is extremely easy to be a fan; you don’t even need to get out of your chair. And yet, that sense of entitlement remains, fed by flattery from social media, by the ongoing confusion over digital rights, by the increasing collaboration of developers and communities.

Which would be fine and dandy, if we weren't having it shoved down our throat that games are not a product but a service. Which means it should be supported, right?

I'm mainly getting tired of this kind of bullshit games journalism, the anti-fan pro-developer stuff that we're seeing off lots and lots of sites. Certain articles on RPS give pangs of it, but I've yet to see anything in particular on the main site. Other sites, however (*cough*Eurogamer&Kotaku*cough*), seem to be doing this more and more often in, I assume, an attempt at driving people to their site and therefore creating revenue.

Unaco
12-02-2012, 02:40 PM
Disagree.

Absolutely brilliant article. That guy deserves a prize... whatever prizes they give people for talking enormous amounts of sense. I was so glad it was the first thing on the Sunday Papers today, rather than some frothing, demanding, demeaning diatribe. Excellent. I might even go and read it again.

BTW, I think you've missed something if you're seeing it as 'anti-fan pro dev' stuff. There are criticisms of Developers... CCP in particular. I think it's hitting a balance between the two... fans and devs.

Alez
12-02-2012, 02:48 PM
For a few seconds i took that guy seriously but i don't think anyone can be such a tool.

Let me translate that article for you:

I want more people to pay attention to me so i'll just annoy as many as i can.

sabrage
12-02-2012, 02:50 PM
"self-entitlement" and "X-Factor generation" preceded by "instalment" in two paragraphs... I can't read this.

Teh Arbiter
12-02-2012, 02:58 PM
the guy represent exactly my feelings when i saw that HL3 group thingy. the thing is, devs survive because they make what they want to make, and fans should respect that. fans can ask, but in a polite manner. if the devs dont respond, so be it. these peoples are adults, but they act like a 5 year old, very immature

ColOfNature
12-02-2012, 03:10 PM
I didn't read this in its entirety first time round, but having given it a second chance it only reinforces my initial opinion: the guy may very well mean every word of it, but that doesn't make it any more a reasonable position. Devs owe their fans everything. We're the shmucks who pay their bills. And Valve maybe more than most: after all, they built Steam on the back of HL2 - that I bought a game on CD (without even bothering to wait for a review, purely on the strength of the original) and had to install a networked DRM system back in the days of expensive and unreliable dial-up connections was unheard of. The early Steam was a buggy mess. But I persevered and when all is said and done I've been pretty pleased with Steam. But it doesn't change the fact that without the goodwill of the fans who put up with Steam and supported Valve in the early days they wouldn't be in the globe-bestriding position they are today. Do I think they owe us something? Hell yes. I'm not going to get shirty about it - I pre-ordered L4D2 out of spite for that kind of bullshit - but for some punk journalist to sit and tell me I'm being a self-entitled jerk really gets my goat.

Grizzly
12-02-2012, 03:18 PM
Devs owe their fans everything.

I disagree. Devs only owe the people dependent on their money: Their families. Any "debt" the devs have towards the people who gave them money for, say, Half Life 2, has been repaid by Half Life 2's quality as a product. Valve does not owe anyone anything concerning Half Life 3 since no money has changed hands yet.

Heliocentric
12-02-2012, 03:20 PM
Honestly cannot be arsed reading the article. I value my time too much to read an article which by all accounts amounts to "fans are needy".

Fan is short for fanatic, these are by definition unreasonable people. Personally I don't care about valves output as developers anymore. I was crazy excited about L4D which turned out its coop elements were "shoot stuff and pick each other up", after playing games like Arma, Project Reality, Chaos Theory, alien swarm (ut2004) and swat (3&4) I expected a tour de force from valve.
I enjoyed what I got but I quickly tired of it, TF2 was very fun but then the bloat set in, and while portal 2 was a beautiful tour and story I never felt like the puzzles held up (I admit it's my own folly that I have yet to play the coop which I will surely love).

Indeed Valves favourite release for me is the free alien swarm which totally alienated me with unlocks (I need to get over it) at least they are not selling advantages ala TF2.

Essentially I am probably the bickering whiner the writer is talking about(but without being a fan) , but I know I'm not entitled to anything, but as a result I buy late in the games life, pay very little, have a large base of calmed down critism to draw on for guidance and have adjusted expectations.

Fans are slavering monsters, but they pay RRP on day 1.

Grizzly
12-02-2012, 03:23 PM
Hmm. I just came up with an interesting example:
Paying for someone's products repeatedly does not entitle you to influence their decisions on later products any more then paying repeatedly for the same prostitute entitles you to a long-term relation with that particular prostitute.

Heliocentric
12-02-2012, 03:31 PM
GTA teaches you that if you run over game developers and the money you spent falls out?

deano2099
12-02-2012, 03:37 PM
I said it in the comments but it's fairly straight-foward. No, Valve don't 'owe' people anything, in the same way that if the night ends before I get my round in, I don't 'owe' everyone a drink. If I don't get the first round in next time though, I am a total and utter tit.

A more sophisticated point: if we all lived in Marlon Davies' utopia where all gamers ever did was look at a game when it came out, bought it, then played it, content that we had our monies worth, then there would be no need for games journalists such as, I dunno, Marlon Davies. That games create communities, passionate discussion and engagement are what allows sites like Eurogamer to exist.

Scumbag
12-02-2012, 03:46 PM
Looks like people replied faster then I could.
Agree with the article. If there is one wrecking ball for various films, arts, musics etc... that kills things flat dead its usually the artist doing it "For the fans". Makes me hiss between my teeth very loudly.
*I typed up something regarding my opinion on "Fans" etc... but deleted it as I'd more then likely get banned*


Which would be fine and dandy, if we weren't having it shoved down our throat that games are not a product but a service. Which means it should be supported, right?

I'd say the current existing item is a service, not any non-existing entities. Ep3/HL3 as far as we can tell does not exist at this moment in time so why should Valve have to say anything about it any more then TF3, Portal 3 or L4D 3?

Keep
12-02-2012, 03:49 PM
I said it in the comments but it's fairly straight-foward. No, Valve don't 'owe' people anything, in the same way that if the night ends before I get my round in, I don't 'owe' everyone a drink. If I don't get the first round in next time though, I am a total and utter tit.

Brilliant, that totally sums it up. Equally, if I call you out for being stingy with your rounds, I too am a tit.

Basically everybody's a tit.

BobsLawnService
12-02-2012, 03:50 PM
I agree with everything in that article. I'm sick of the self-entitled, passive-aggressive whinging of people who call themselves "fans".

soldant
12-02-2012, 04:02 PM
I disagree with the article because it deliberately misrepresents what that event was about. People were not demanding Episode 3, they only requested information from Valve to see if the series, one which they enjoy and have invested a lot of time in, would still be continued. It was never about Valve owing anybody anything. But as with most of the "OMG ENTITLEMENT" arguments, you can't let that get in the way of a good story. The "entitlement" buzz word turned what was a reasonable attempt to engage with Valve (who love community engagement) into a pack of fans screaming that they want something and they want it now, which is false. Well, false at least for that movement. The article is terrible. It's invalid simply because of its misrepresentation of that particular event. Call attention to the ranting minority if you want, but don't deliberately misrepresent an event just to suit your own trolling.

It's true that Valve don't literally owe anybody anything. They get to where they are because they're making good games and providing a good service (Steam). You pay for their stuff which supports them. Just like Microsoft don't owe the flight sim community another Flight Simulator to their expectations (now there's a good case for "entitlement" being used properly!), Valve don't owe us another Half Life. If they called it quits, they're entirely within their rights to do so.

However, I absolutely understand how people can be frustrated with this. Valve did say there'd be an Episode 3. Episode 2 was all set on a cliff-hanger with a clear bridge to the next episode. And then... silence. There was an expectation from the gaming community that we'd get another episode, and they'd then move on to HL3 or whatever. There was an expectation that the HL2 story arc would be closed. Although Valve don't really owe you a final game, it is a bit of a let-down for players to follow the story from 1999 to 2007, only to have it abruptly end. If it's entitlement to desire another game in the series to finish the storyline that was initially started, or hell a follow-up to something you really enjoyed, then everybody is guilty of entitlement syndrome. Apparently "entitlement" today means "wishing, whether vocally or not, for anything."

Namdrol
12-02-2012, 04:09 PM
Apparently "entitlement" today means "wishing, whether vocally or not, for anything."

No, this is entitlement:


Devs owe their fans everything.

ColOfNature
12-02-2012, 04:12 PM
No, this is entitlement:

No, it was a statement of my opinion.

archonsod
12-02-2012, 04:22 PM
Devs owe their fans everything. We're the shmucks who pay their bills.

No, they owe you the game you paid for. Nothing more, nothing less. You don't go into a store, buy a pint of milk and expect them to give you bread and eggs just because they happen to be on the shelves next to the milk you're buying. Similarly you'd probably be pissed off if someone turned up at your workplace and decided they had a right to be your manager simply because they'd bought something off you five years ago.

ColOfNature
12-02-2012, 04:33 PM
Well, I'm in the minority on this one, which is fine. I joined in with the "let's all play Half-Life to send a message" the other day, but other than that and here I've never otherwise publicly aired this opinion. I don't send Gabe rude emails demanding that he finish the series naow, I don't get all butthurt and threaten to boycott the company when they do something that bothers me - quite the opposite, I'll generally buy whatever Valve are selling. I stand by my opinion that were it not for us, the customers, then the devs would likely not be in the enviable position of writing games for a living and that for that they owe us. Maybe not "everything", I was a bit annoyed when I wrote that and it shows, but some information every now and then regarding something we've been promised for the last four years would be nice.

deano2099
12-02-2012, 04:33 PM
There was an expectation that the HL2 story arc would be closed. Although Valve don't really owe you a final game, it is a bit of a let-down for players to follow the story from 1999 to 2007, only to have it abruptly end.

Also worth noting that this hardly ever happens anywhere else, because in other mediums, people are actually invested in their story. I've had so many TV shows cancelled from underneath me, and every time the creator comes out and says "we wish we could have continued it, but the network canceled us / wanted changes that would undermine the show / etc". I've seen book series end unfinished because the author died. I've seen countless games set up for non-existent sequels because no-one would publish them.

But I've never seen something fade away because the creator doesn't give a crap anymore. If nothing else, it demonstrates how much Valve actually value the Half Life narrative (ie: not at all).

deano2099
12-02-2012, 04:35 PM
And the "devs owe us everything" is an awkward conflation of literal and figurative meanings of 'owe'. Generally in the 'entitlement' discussion it's seen as developer literally 'owing' fans the completion of a given product. Whereas at the Oscars when an actress says "I owe my career to [director X] who took a chance on me and gave me my first big break" she doesn't mean she literally owes him her career and all of her earnings.

vinraith
12-02-2012, 04:43 PM
Which would be fine and dandy, if we weren't having it shoved down our throat that games are not a product but a service. Which means it should be supported, right?


I thought that was hilarious, considering Valve's "games are a service" excuse for every crap thing they do. I couldn't give a damn about HL3, but if you're going to insist that "games are a service" you deserve all the baggage that comes with that. "Service" is not a one-sided affair.

BobsLawnService
12-02-2012, 05:09 PM
So who has paid for the Half Life 3 service? Wait, nobody?

Quit yer bitching then.

hamster
12-02-2012, 05:22 PM
Whether people feel they're entitled to or not, they're still gonna whine. Is it really worth writing an entire article over this? I once whined in a CS server that it's totally full of crap that they banned the AWP and the idiots who whine about 1 hit kills are the noobs, not the people using the gun. Then a few days later some asswipe tagged my pinky with the AWP moments before I could defuse the bomb. I whined that it was full of crap that you could die from a finger wound, something that I could survive IN REAL LIFE - and since CS avatars can sustain 3+ assault rifle bullets to the chest unarmored, dying over a finger wound was internally inconsistent. "BAN this retarded weapon", I whined.

At no point did i feel entitled to complain. Didn't stop me though!

Scumbag
12-02-2012, 05:45 PM
But I've never seen something fade away because the creator doesn't give a crap anymore. If nothing else, it demonstrates how much Valve actually value the Half Life narrative (ie: not at all).

Disagree with that. Seen lots of people in music stop the continuation of concept work simply because they realise they are incapable of finishing them or have lost the spirit to continue. Rather then deliver something half-baked they killed it off. Suspect if Valve really did not care too much they could have quite easily have fired off a Ep3 without much effort or expansion on the ideas from Ep2, simply cashing in on the fact "Its Half-Life, people will buy it." If anything I suspect they are looking at the ideas for Ep3 and debating on what to do.

It would be nice if they did not care they simply just said so, but if not, they dont have to do so.

PeopleLikeFrank
12-02-2012, 05:45 PM
Every time this comes up, I just want to post Neil Gaiman's thoughts (http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html) and be done with it. Not just the bit about entitlement - just as importantly the bit about the complexity of the creative process. Valve know what they're doing. I disagree with what they do entirely at times, but I can't say they don't. If fans don't have the patience to leave them to it, well, too bad for the fans.

Mihkel
12-02-2012, 05:56 PM
I guess on the topic of HL3 the outcry of the fans is kind of justified considering the cockteasing. Either say that something is being done or say that nothing is being done for the foreseeable future or ever. Can't see the reason for all dodging of the subject matter from Valve's side.

Unaco
12-02-2012, 05:57 PM
I guess on the topic of HL3 the outcry of the fans is kind of justified considering the cockteasing.

What cockteasing? What have Valve done, in regards to HL3 or Ep3 that can be construed as cockteasing?

Heliocentric
12-02-2012, 06:01 PM
Whether people feel they're entitled to or not, they're still gonna whine. Is it really worth writing an entire article over this? I once whined in a CS server that it's totally full of crap that they banned the AWP and the idiots who whine about 1 hit kills are the noobs, not the people using the gun. Then a few days later some asswipe tagged my pinky with the AWP moments before I could defuse the bomb. I whined that it was full of crap that you could die from a finger wound, something that I could survive IN REAL LIFE - and since CS avatars can sustain 3+ assault rifle bullets to the chest unarmored, dying over a finger wound was internally inconsistent. "BAN this retarded weapon", I whined.

At no point did i feel entitled to complain. Didn't stop me though!

Stop playing games that don't model the entire physiology of the body.... Er

trjp
12-02-2012, 06:01 PM
"Entitlement" - as in the feeling that you are 'entitled' to have something which you don't currently have/possibly doesn't even exist - is rife in gaming.

Take the iTunes/Android Stores where one of the commonest complaints about Games/Apps is "lack of updates" - at what point did that person decide that as someone who's paid a tiny amount (or quite possibly nothing) that they were entitled to 'updates' (which, in this case, means extra free content)?? Also, how they whinged when the Android 24 hour refund (you could complete most games) was changed to 15 mins (you can still easily check it works)???

Then there's the forums for any one given game, where people will drone on about how the game should be more like how THEY see the game being - better for THEIR choice of class or playstyle - more like "insert other game here" - always impervious to the fact it's just their opinion and counts for nothing.

Opinions, in themselves, are something which needs to be reined-in. We are asking people for their opinion too-often and mistaking 'opinion' for 'objective fact'. Ratings constantly ask for whether something is 'good' or 'bad' (objective) wheras it should simply ask if you enjoyed it or not (subjective) .

Indulge people less - make it clearer that you buy X and get X (and not X+ or even Y!) and if you don't like it, the worst you can do is tell us that you didn't and MOVE THE FUCK ON.

Mihkel
12-02-2012, 06:03 PM
What cockteasing? What have Valve done, in regards to HL3 or Ep3 that can be construed as cockteasing?

Saying that there will be an ending to the story arc, that there will be episode 3? I mean it has been some 4-5 years now since episode 2. Just say that it's not gonna happen if you're not planning on doing anything, it isn't that hard. Why keep this topic in the air?

archonsod
12-02-2012, 06:18 PM
Maybe they do intend to do something with it, just not in the foreseeable future?

Mihkel
12-02-2012, 06:22 PM
Maybe they do intend to do something with it, just not in the foreseeable future?
Well why not just say so? Say anything for that matter.

Unaco
12-02-2012, 06:26 PM
Saying that there will be an ending to the story arc, that there will be episode 3? I mean it has been some 4-5 years now since episode 2. Just say that it's not gonna happen if you're not planning on doing anything, it isn't that hard. Why keep this topic in the air?

I'm fairly sure they do intend to finish the story arc. But you take announcing that they will finish the story arc as cockteasing? Seriously? And you take their silence as cockteasing?

Yachmenev
12-02-2012, 06:35 PM
Ridiculous article, attacking a loyal fanbase that just asks for the most basic forms of communication after year´s of cock teasing, and that supports a steam group that asks for this in a sensible and well written message, by playing Valves games and creating more attention for the company.

Yes, Valve doesn´t legally owe the fans anything, but they are responsible for creating this enormous anticipation, and need to man up and acknowledge that.

Mihkel
12-02-2012, 06:40 PM
I'm fairly sure they do intend to finish the story arc. But you take announcing that they will finish the story arc as cockteasing? Seriously? And you take their silence as cockteasing?
I personally don't really care for it that much but I'm just trying to see this from a hardcore fan perspective. I mean you got a company who for a few years says things about EP3 and the amount of information and talk decreases over time until they go very ambiguous on it. I mean they always talk about it to some extent, much cryptic now than 3 years ago but they still do talk from time to time. I can see it as cockteasing for the fans.

archonsod
12-02-2012, 06:50 PM
Well why not just say so? Say anything for that matter.

Why? Do you regularly tell people what you're going to do at work next week?

Mihkel
12-02-2012, 06:58 PM
Why? Do you regularly tell people what you're going to do at work next week?
Well I don't work for a video games company but considering that a game takes roughly 2-3 years for completion and that you have a very solid fanbase behind it, it makes sense to either confirm or deny some rumors instead of just wishing for the fanbase to stop asking questions and getting erratic.

Bhazor
12-02-2012, 07:02 PM
No, they owe you the game you paid for. Nothing more, nothing less. You don't go into a store, buy a pint of milk and expect them to give you bread and eggs just because they happen to be on the shelves next to the milk you're buying. Similarly you'd probably be pissed off if someone turned up at your workplace and decided they had a right to be your manager simply because they'd bought something off you five years ago.


I said it in the comments but it's fairly straight-foward. No, Valve don't 'owe' people anything, in the same way that if the night ends before I get my round in, I don't 'owe' everyone a drink. If I don't get the first round in next time though, I am a total and utter tit.

Your analogies hurt me.


So who has paid for the Half Life 3 service? Wait, nobody?

Quit yer bitching then.

30% of every game sold on Steam says otherwise. Steam was sold as the HL2 platform and yet the game is still half finished so we're paying for the privelege to use DRM for a game that still doesn't really exist.

But HL2 is a unique case. To use an example from thecomments It's an unfinished trilogy it'd be like Star Wars ending with Empire Strikes Back with no closure for any of the plotlines. When you end on a cliff hanger you had better have a follow up ready to go. In general a dev does not owe their fans. But if they did do what the fans kept asking for, then well...
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/66710809/double-fine-adventure

Rii
12-02-2012, 07:10 PM
Devs don't owe gamers anything. Not sequels. Not patches. Not a working product. Nothing.

Similarly, gamers owe devs nothing. Not their attention, not politeness, and certainly not their money -- regardless of having played the game or not.

Only in the absence of obligation can a harmonious relationship between artist and audience develop. So long as developers continue to believe they have a 'right' to be paid for their work, and gamers continue to believe they have a 'right' to be rewarded for their voluntarily contributions, there will forever be friction between them.

Voon
12-02-2012, 07:16 PM
I thought that event was held by a group concerned fans of the Half-Life games so they could get at least a bit of info from Valve concerning the development of the (possible) sequel.

RobF
12-02-2012, 07:35 PM
Disagree.

Absolutely brilliant article. That guy deserves a prize... whatever prizes they give people for talking enormous amounts of sense. I was so glad it was the first thing on the Sunday Papers today, rather than some frothing, demanding, demeaning diatribe. Excellent. I might even go and read it again.

BTW, I think you've missed something if you're seeing it as 'anti-fan pro dev' stuff. There are criticisms of Developers... CCP in particular. I think it's hitting a balance between the two... fans and devs.

Does he deserve a prize for selective quoting and misrepresenting the Call For Communication group that he hinges the entire article on? Does he deserve a prize for conflating a polite question with the actions of a lunatic minority who whilst no-one could argue are a quiet bunch are a tiny amount of people compared to the vast, vast numbers of people who *aren't* like that?

And the lunatic minority are most definitely are nothing akin to the CFC (heh) group, are they? DDOS'ing is not comparable with playing a game and writing a polite letter.

Does he deserve a prize for tainting an entire generation with the actions of a tiny few and offering up little beyond insults and abuse?

The only prize to be awarded here is the 2012 Overexaggeration and Bullshit Award. He's welcome to it, too. He earned it.

gimperial
12-02-2012, 08:01 PM
I disagree with the article because it deliberately misrepresents what that event was about.

The point of the group (as I understand it) was to get information, not to force Valve to make Ep3. Like with the examples you mentioned (TV series, books), fans were told that there would be no more episodes. Even if Valve said there won't be an ep3 in the next 5 years, the fans would be happy (happier than with silence).

Unaco
12-02-2012, 08:02 PM
Nice hyperbole there RobF.

Again... I don't see it as an attack on any group. It seems quite a balanced article. He acknowledges that there can be situations (such as the EVE CCP thing, or with TF2) were the Devs really do owe the customers something... but with HL3 this isn't the case. It belongs to Valve and them alone, and they'll do with it as they see fit. He does conflate the CFC with the DDOS and Death Threats thing... and that isn't the best. But I don't think he's conflating and attacking the people behind it, or the act itself... More the demand/expectation that Valve should respond to it, and the general culture that has brought that about.

And... If you can "little beyond insults and abuse" you are blind, deluded, or just as selective and biased as whatever it is you seem to be railing against. There is plenty in the article that is neither insult or abuse.

Kadayi
12-02-2012, 08:13 PM
the guy represent exactly my feelings when i saw that HL3 group thingy. the thing is, devs survive because they make what they want to make, and fans should respect that. fans can ask, but in a polite manner. if the devs dont respond, so be it. these peoples are adults, but they act like a 5 year old, very immature

I don't wish to call you into disrepute here Arbiter, but based on your blanket dismissal it honestly doesn't sound to me like you've actually read up anything on the call for communication group at all. The wording of their request is pretty civil and straight forward. There's nothing brattish about, nor have they arranged any boycotts or DDos attacks or anything.


The point of the group (as I understand it) was to get information, not to force Valve to make Ep3. Like with the examples you mentioned (TV series, books), fans were told that there would be no more episodes. Even if Valve said there won't be an ep3 in the next 5 years, the fans would be happy (happier than with silence).

Exactly. Frankly I don't get the hostility of over the request. Plenty of other developers are happy to discuss the state of play of projects, even if they can't necessarily go into specifics so why it's such an affront that some fans of the HL series are wondering whats going on to peoples sensibilities is faintly bizarre.

I'm an out and out HL fan. I'm not fussy when Valve decide to release EP3 or HL3 (whichever route they go down), as I've plenty of games to keep me occupied as it is. However being someone whose followed the franchise since the original I am a tad concerned about the fact that it's beginning to show it age in terms of format Vs other newer titles and I'd hate to see it lurch into the light 5 years from now as Duke Nukem did in 2011 and faceplant both critically and commercially. That would be a terrible end to what has been a very enjoyable series so far.

Why be concerned? Well truth of the matter is (HL fanboyism aside) I'm not entirely convinced that Valve are the mighty powerhouse development studio they once were truth be told. Portal 2 sold ok, but it didn't do remotely crazy numbers Vs say the Skyrims of BF3s and similarly neither did L4D & L4D2. They did ok, but they didn't set the world light (especially on the consoles). Principally what's kept Valve relevant in the industry over the last few years has been Steam more than anything else, rather than as an actual developer these days, and I do think that's a bit of an issue.


Also with regard to all the 'Valve don't owe you shit' commentary. Fact of the matter is when the episodic model were announced way back in 2005 it was stated that it would initially be a trilogy of episodes and the intention was to have it all wrapped up by the end of 2007 and that it would clarify events after the end of HL2. Albeit Valve time played a part in pushing the dates back. Having left EP2 on a cliff hanger and events unresolved, four and a bit years between now and then does seem to be stretching the notion of ETA a bit far regarding fan/enthusiast patience.

RobF
12-02-2012, 08:15 PM
If it was so balanced, why did he need to remove key points of what the CFC are asking for to paint them in a worse light and then, after hinging the entire piece on what is essentially a fantasy, conflate them with small groups of people who do terribly silly things?

If it was balanced, surely it would acknowledge that actually, these so called terrible people are a tiny amount of folks who just make a big noise rather than trying to paint it as a culturally fucked generation?

That is not balanced. That's bullshit.

TsunamiWombat
12-02-2012, 09:14 PM
Sort of odd he used Call for Communication - I suspect just because they were topical. A better subject group would've been the Left For Dead 2 boycott group.

Drake Sigar
12-02-2012, 09:46 PM
Since the HL2 event is the main example of the article, and the article is called 'Why devs owe you nothing' it's pretty clear to me that Mr Davies is labelling all the people who took part as self-entitled. He makes no effort to hone in on the tiny minority ultimately responsible for these demands, for the bulk of the 'protest' struck me as nothing more than a harmless demonstration to Valve that there's still huge interest in the franchise.

archonsod
12-02-2012, 10:06 PM
Well I don't work for a video games company but considering that a game takes roughly 2-3 years for completion and that you have a very solid fanbase behind it, it makes sense to either confirm or deny some rumors instead of just wishing for the fanbase to stop asking questions and getting erratic.

I doubt Valve give two shits whether the fanbase are going to ask questions or not; if they did they'd have answered. And there's very good reasons for not saying anything until they have a definite answer. Not only would answering maybe do nothing to stop the questions, but they probably don't want to restrict the options they have with the HL IP until such time as they're ready to exploit it.



Why be concerned? Well truth of the matter is (HL fanboyism aside) I'm not entirely convinced that Valve are the mighty powerhouse development studio they once were truth be told. Portal 2 sold ok, but it didn't do remotely crazy numbers Vs say the Skyrims of BF3s

It took a year for Halflife to hit one million sales, and four years for Halflife 2 to hit 6.5 million sales - the number the last CoD made on launch day. Valve have always tended to be successful with the critics rather than commercially.


Also with regard to all the 'Valve don't owe you shit' commentary. Fact of the matter is when the episodic model were announced way back in 2005 it was stated that it would initially be a trilogy of episodes and the intention was to have it all wrapped up by the end of 2007 and that it would clarify events after the end of HL2.
And they're not allowed to change their minds, decide not to bother or simply stop giving a fuck? If you're dumb enough to listen to statements released by companies then expect to be disappointed. Once again, see homoeopathy.

Kadayi
12-02-2012, 10:09 PM
Sort of odd he used Call for Communication - I suspect just because they were topical. A better subject group would've been the Left For Dead 2 boycott group.

It's a troll piece. Being accurate isn't the intention. The intention is to generate site hits, so Tammy can get new shoes as it's a slow month for gaming news. Nothing drives clicks like some bold accusations and who cares if they hit wide of the mark? Certainly not people like Marsh Davies. Although naturally he tries to claim some vested interest towards the end through the following: -


I can understand the desire. I have played HL2 through to completion more times than I have bothered to count and I never tire of writing about how much I love it. In the years I've worked in this industry, only Gabe Newell's awesome presence has reduced me to gibbering mid-interview. Needless to say, like the fans who signed that open letter, I will certainly play whatever instalment Valve issues next, whenever it emerges. But I also recognise that my desire has no impact, nor should have, on Valve's PR policy, much less its development schedule - and it would be naive to think that the two are unrelated, as the open letter does.

Maybe Google isn't working today, but I must admit I can't find one article anywhere by a Marsh Davies waxing lyrical about the grandeur of Half-life tbh, which I must admit makes me wonder whether he's in fact ever met Gabe Newell, or played through the game several times as stated.

@Archonsod

Shits & fucks? Does it really have to come down to that? A grown man reduced to sweary derision in lieu of a solid counter point? Give it a rest.

Mihkel
12-02-2012, 10:49 PM
I doubt Valve give two shits whether the fanbase are going to ask questions or not; if they did they'd have answered. And there's very good reasons for not saying anything until they have a definite answer. Not only would answering maybe do nothing to stop the questions, but they probably don't want to restrict the options they have with the HL IP until such time as they're ready to exploit it.

But they do give two to multiple shits about the fanbase considering how they treat their fans (some fans who got flown to Valve's offices (http://kotaku.com/5356004/left-4-dead-2-boycottersflown-to-valve-to-play-the-game), some picketing fans who Gaben personally went out to talk to or something (http://kotaku.com/5831805/what-did-gabe-newell-say-to-the-half+life-3-protesters), the fact that Gaben answers to most ridiculous emails sent by people (http://www.shacknews.com/article/71523/valve-teases-something-with-a-three-in-it)). The first fan example I admit is not that good because they are L4D2 fans but still Valve supporters aswell I think. It's just seems to me that Valve does care a lot about it's fans.

Answering some questions to the fans will stop the questioning or atleast quell it a little bit, we have seen from other companies (and Valve too for that matter) that communicating with your fanbase works very well (Overkill Software for instance).

Nalano
12-02-2012, 11:13 PM
I agree with Marsh Davies, and would like to highlight one sentence because of this "we're not asking for HL3" silliness:

"But I also recognise that my desire has no impact, nor should have, on Valve's PR policy, much less its development schedule - and it would be naive to think that the two are unrelated, as the open letter does."

As for ColOfNature's "they owe us everything; we made them successful," fuck that. If they stole from me and became successful, I'd be pissed. If I invested and owned a minority share in their company, they'd owe me. But they sold me a game, and that's the last of our relationship.

I don't owe any of my former clients anything: I performed what I needed to do and they paid me for it. It even paid my rent. But I don't need to keep doing things for them, and especially not on their terms.


But they do give two to multiple shits about the fanbase considering how they treat their fans (some fans who got flown to Valve's offices (http://kotaku.com/5356004/left-4-dead-2-boycottersflown-to-valve-to-play-the-game), some picketing fans who Gaben personally went out to talk to or something (http://kotaku.com/5831805/what-did-gabe-newell-say-to-the-half+life-3-protesters), the fact that Gaben answers to most ridiculous emails sent by people (http://www.shacknews.com/article/71523/valve-teases-something-with-a-three-in-it)). The first fan example I admit is not that good because they are L4D2 fans but still Valve supporters aswell I think. It's just seems to me that Valve does care a lot about it's fans.

So, what? That reads to me like Half Life fans are hoping they'll be given the royal treatment, because Valve gave some critics plane tickets a while back. What a dangerous precedent.

ColOfNature
12-02-2012, 11:48 PM
As for ColOfNature's "they owe us everything; we made them successful," fuck that.

Yeah, I already said that "everything" was a poor choice of word. Even "owe" might be reaching a bit (I'll appropriate deano2099's explanation of why (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?3029-Marsh-Davies-quot-Why-Devs-Owe-You-Nothing-quot-Article&p=91095&viewfull=1#post91095), his thinking is clearly more, er, clear than mine). However my point still stands: they built Steam by foisting it on the fans who were buying their early products and expanding from there. The promise of an ending to the Half-Life 2 story was made, and it must have played at least a small part in bolstering the sales of the Episodes (another all-but-unheard-of innovation of Valve's which only gained any traction due to the goodwill of the community, but seems to have been dumped) - a promise which remains unfulfilled. Every few months some tiny detail leaks out (concept art, sign language, HL3 t-shirt) and yet they remain coy about actually coming out and saying anything at all.

Kadayi
12-02-2012, 11:51 PM
Dude Gabe Newell sat there in a press conference shortly after HL2 shipped and explicitly stated that the episodes would be a trilogy and the intention was to release them over the next couple of years. We're now two episodes in and several years late. What's the big deal with Valve throwing the fan base a bone over this? I really don't get the hostility over this tbh.

Nalano
12-02-2012, 11:56 PM
However my point still stands: they built Steam by foisting it on the fans who were buying their early products and expanding from there.

And, what? This doesn't contradict my statement. It only highlights the "I liked the band before they were famous" sense of superiority. What, do you want a cookie?

Yes, clearly you do, and Half Life 3 is that cookie. A "promise" was made, with no timeline and no details and no obligation to follow through, and yet ten thousand people held their breath. Don't they have better things to do with their time than want?

ColOfNature
13-02-2012, 12:09 AM
I also pointed out that this was the only time I'd ever spoken about the issue. Now I'm not just entitled, I'm a Steam hipster to boot. Fair enough.

And yes, a cookie is always appreciated.

Kaira-
13-02-2012, 12:22 AM
Yes, clearly you do, and Half Life 3 is that cookie. A "promise" was made, with no timeline and no details and no obligation to follow through, and yet ten thousand people held their breath. Don't they have better things to do with their time than want?

Yeah, about that...
http://www.gamespot.com/news/half-life-2-episode-one-gold-two-dated-three-announced-6151796

Also, even if the people would have better things to do with time, so what? What does it matter? Nothing.

Nalano
13-02-2012, 12:26 AM
Yeah, about that...
http://www.gamespot.com/news/half-life-2-episode-one-gold-two-dated-three-announced-6151796

Yeah, about that (https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time)...

You don't really take early estimates embedded in PR statements seriously, do you?


Also, even if the people would have better things to do with time, so what? What does it matter? Nothing.

It means get a life, yo.

ColOfNature
13-02-2012, 12:35 AM
It means get a life, yo.

(This very forum, to date) Posts: 2,926
(Steam stats) Playing time: 142.5 hrs past 2 weeks

We all use our time differently.

soldant
13-02-2012, 01:01 AM
I thought that event was held by a group concerned fans of the Half-Life games so they could get at least a bit of info from Valve concerning the development of the (possible) sequel.
That's exactly right. It was never about forcing Valve to make EP3. All the group wanted to know was if they were going to return to the franchise. Even if Valve said "We're not sure", or "We haven't forgotten", or something like that, the group would have been placated.


The point of the group (as I understand it) was to get information, not to force Valve to make Ep3. Like with the examples you mentioned (TV series, books), fans were told that there would be no more episodes. Even if Valve said there won't be an ep3 in the next 5 years, the fans would be happy (happier than with silence).
That's what my post was saying... don't remember mentioning TV or books though.


Sort of odd he used Call for Communication - I suspect just because they were topical. A better subject group would've been the Left For Dead 2 boycott group.
Maybe, because the boycott group was a bit more... um, aggressive in their actions (for lack of a better term). Makes me wonder though if we can use the same argument over the people who wanted a dedicated server in Modern Warfare 2. Is it "entitlement" to expect a dedicated server?

And I really don't find it odd that he used Call for Comm, what I do find odd is that he thought he could twist it into entitlement by deliberately misrepresenting the entire thing. What I find astounding is that people are actually going along with his distortion... including RPS posters who saw the movement in its original, actual state!

Kadayi
13-02-2012, 01:04 AM
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/i_valve_060606


"After spectacularly 'raising the bar' (with a gravity gun) of the FPS genre in 2004, Valve last week turned its attention to extending the Half-Life 2 universe episodically with the release of the first in a trilogy of episodes that finally reveals what happened to Gordon and Alyx after the destruction of the Citadel."

Ironically on eurogamer of all sites.

Back in 2008 Doug was even talking about EP3 maybe being ready to show by the years end even.

http://archive.videogamesdaily.com/features/valve-doug-lombardi-left-4-dead-interview-p3.asp


Kikizo: What do you think about the distance between the episodes, though? Is there a benefit to having a longer wait?

Lombardi: I think our philosophy was that, we spent six years on Half-Life 2 and upwards of $40 million, and basically 80% of the company ended working up on it for a good chunk of that time. And that was just too much; nobody wanted to do that again. There was this trajectory with Half-Life 1 costing a lot less than that, and taking two years or whatever it took. HL2 was six years and a lot more money, so if we were to keep going down that path it was going to get more expensive, and take even longer. And what we wanted was an alternative to that. We wanted to deliver the games more quickly, and we didn't want to be taking the risk of $40 million or $50 million to make the thing, because at that point you're like, "oh my god we have to sell 2 million copies or else we're fucked", right? [laughs]

So I think we were successful in that it's been less than four years since Half-Life 2, and we've gotten two episodes out; each of them had new technology, each of them had new gameplay - arguably Ep2 had more new gameplay than Ep1, but I think that we were successful in giving players more time with Freeman, more time with Alyx, giving them new experiences, telling them more of the story, in a much quicker fashion. I mean, "episodic" conjures up this notion of television where it comes once a week for 12 weeks or whatever, and so maybe there's a better word for what we're doing! You know what I mean? But I think the goal is to get away from that 'half a lifetime, mountains of money' to produce the next thing, and we've succeeded in that - and maybe we could have chosen a better word to describe what we were doing.

Also: -

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/half-life-2-episode-one-gold-two-dated-three-announced-6151796



Today's gold announcement was the first official confirmation that a third Half-Life 2 episodic update is in development. Like Episode Two, Valve divulged little in the way of information about Episode Three, saying only that it was the last "in a trilogy...that will conclude by Christmas of 2007."

In fact there was even some talk of an episode 4 to be developed externally by Arkane studios: -

http://half-life.wikia.com/wiki/Half-Life_2:_Episode_Four

Kaira-
13-02-2012, 01:10 AM
Yeah, about that (https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time)...

You don't really take early estimates embedded in PR statements seriously, do you?


So, you are saying Valve's word is worth nothing, especially on subjects of time? How nice to have a respectable company.

deano2099
13-02-2012, 01:25 AM
And they're not allowed to change their minds, decide not to bother or simply stop giving a fuck? If you're dumb enough to listen to statements released by companies then expect to be disappointed. Once again, see homoeopathy.

Of course they're allowed to do that, but if they do it's okay to call them on it.

Homoepathy is bullshit. Yeah sure. But do you go around telling Ben Goldacre to shut the fuck up and it's his fault for taking anything PRs say seriously and no-one should believe that shit so why is he even going on about it?

It seems like people on the side of the article are going "yeah sure, Valve will act like dicks, but don't you dare fucking complain about it because that's the way it is and we don't challenge the status quo around here. They have a right to act like dicks, don't you criticise them for it".

It's not entitlement to call someone or something on their bullshit. It likely won't do any good, but I really struggle at seeing why some people are so heavily opposed to even bringing up the subject.

soldant
13-02-2012, 01:28 AM
So, you are saying Valve's word is worth nothing, especially on subjects of time? How nice to have a respectable company.
He's right though, or at least he is for the most part. Half Life 2's development was atrocious. Valve pretty much lied to everybody during 2003 about the September release date. They knew from the start of 2003 that they didn't have a hope in hell of making that date... and they remained silent. Well actually Gabe himself initially said towards the beginning of 2003 that it would make the September release, and contradicted Vivendi (the publisher) when they said that it wouldn't make the date.

It was only when the leak hit the internet that it was so comically obvious that Valve weren't going to make the date, and Valve were left red-faced. As they should have been. Valve aren't good at sticking to timeframes; HL1 was the same as HL2. TF2 is a saga in itself. They're getting better at it (look at L4D2).

Kadayi
13-02-2012, 01:52 AM
Valve aren't good at sticking to timeframes

Indeed they're not, but it does boggle the mind why a bunch of fans of the series making a pretty civil inquiry as to the state of play of EP3 given it's been MIA for over 4 years now, is somehow beyond the pale.

R-F
13-02-2012, 02:06 AM
I'm sure Nalano and Kadayi just contradict each other for the sake of it.

Kaira-
13-02-2012, 02:06 AM
He's right though, or at least he is for the most part.

Obviously he was right. However, a timeline was given, and then not kept even somewhat close (let's say, give or take 1˝ years from the announced date).

Nalano
13-02-2012, 02:10 AM
(This very forum, to date) Posts: 2,926
(Steam stats) Playing time: 142.5 hrs past 2 weeks

We all use our time differently.

And I spent more than four years in WoW. So when I tell you to "get a life," you should feel insulted.


Obviously he was right. However, a timeline was given, and then not kept even somewhat close (let's say, give or take 1˝ years from the announced date).

When the New York MTA got complaints that the subway trains weren't even close to running on schedule, they removed the posted schedules. Complaints went down. Funny, that.

ColOfNature
13-02-2012, 02:24 AM
I know I have no life, and I'm entirely at ease with this. That you feel the need to bring up your time served in WoW in order to underscore your gaming chops just highlights your sense of superiority. What, want a cookie? We've all sunk way too much time into some game or other.

Kaira-
13-02-2012, 02:34 AM
When the New York MTA got complaints that the subway trains weren't even close to running on schedule, they removed the posted schedules. Complaints went down. Funny, that.

Funny indeed. And if Valve would open their wordly chest on the subject of HL3, I wonder what would happen with regards to the "complaints" Call for Communication group has presented. I guess that would be mighty funny too.

Nalano
13-02-2012, 02:44 AM
Funny indeed. And if Valve would open their wordly chest on the subject of HL3, I wonder what would happen with regards to the "complaints" Call for Communication group has presented. I guess that would be mighty funny too.

Lemme hazard a guess: People, knowing that they have the ear of Valve, will demand more.

Look what happens when a CM or a Dev posts on a forum or comments board. He is immediately deluged with every question under the sun, because he deigned to brave the public eye. If Valve answers this "innocent" question, they will be rewarded with more questions. The people, emboldened by the success of their ploy, will ask for regular updates. That's what I meant when I quoted Marsh Davies. That's what I meant when this shit came up in the other thread (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?2700-A-Call-for-Communication).

Give an inch, they'll take a mile. Why encourage them? Let Valve make or not make this game in peace, because pushing them in either direction will probably adulterate the game. Earlier in this thread, Neil Gaiman's essay on the subject was linked, and he raised a salient point:

"It seems to me that the biggest problem with series books is that either readers complain that the books used to be good but that somewhere in the effort to get out a book every year the quality has fallen off, or they complain that the books, although maintaining quality, aren't coming out on time."

And you know how he ended the essay?

"Wait. Read the original book again. Read something else. Get on with your life. Hope that the author is writing the book you want to read, and not dying, or something equally as dramatic. And if he paints the house, that's fine."

soldant
13-02-2012, 02:50 AM
Indeed they're not, but it does boggle the mind why a bunch of fans of the series making a pretty civil inquiry as to the state of play of EP3 given it's been MIA for over 4 years now, is somehow beyond the pale.
Yeah I'm not disputing this, remember my first post was against the article. I'm not sure why some people seem to think I agree with it.

Lukasz
13-02-2012, 03:08 AM
Meh. So much arguments here. I have my right to not purchase any valve software until they release the game I want. So I am doing just that. screw who owns whom.

Kaira-
13-02-2012, 03:26 AM
Lemme hazard a guess: People, knowing that they have the ear of Valve, will demand more.

Some may, some may not. However, at that point the task of Call for Communication has been fullfilled. CfC is not the speaker of all the fans/enthustiasts of Half Life. CfC can't control those people.



Look what happens when a CM or a Dev posts on a forum or comments board
People ask more, naturally. However, letting people know that something is actually going on (or isn't) is what CfC is looking for. Communicate with people with respect and common sense, and you will be able to stand tall.



Give an inch, they'll take a mile

And yet there are moments when giving a mile means definitive victory in the long run.


Let Valve make or not make this game in peace, because pushing them in either direction will probably adulterate the game
Yes, because no external influence is not only possible, but a very good thing. Not to say that it wouldn't be a good game if you don't communicate with your fanbase, but feedback is often very vital part of creative process, and playtesters are still a small, if not tiny voice and set of opinions and are more than prone for failure.


Get on with your life

And I have, since HL2 was very boring game. But using Neil's essay on this subject is at best shakey. CfC isn't looking to (at least for the time speaking, and if this changes I'll be disappointed) push Valve towards making the game. People just want to know what is going on. And I don't think many in the CfC group would disagree with "
For me, I would rather read a good book, from a contented author. I don't really care what it takes to produce that."

Also, from the very same essay:

"
I blew a deadline recently. Terminally blew it. First time in 25 years I've sighed and said, “I can't do this, and you won't get your story.""


Something Valve could learn from. When you failed at something, admit it and move on. Untreated wounds may easily become infected. Valve has so far been lucky to have such an understanding and excusing (even apologist) fanbase. Nothing lasts forever.

deano2099
13-02-2012, 03:38 AM
Lemme hazard a guess: People, knowing that they have the ear of Valve, will demand more.

So?

There is no 'they' and there is no 'people' here. Yes, some people won't be happy until they have HL3 sitting on their hard-drive an unlocked ready to play. (Although let's face it, some people won't be happy even then ergo why bother releasing the game at all).

Meanwhile, some people, like yourself, don't give a crap when it gets released. Also fine.

In the middle there are a whole bunch of people that just want some information. Want to know what the hell is happening. They are people that would appreciate that info and will be satisfied with it.

And pretty much everyone agrees that they're in the right. That it'd be nice for Valve to let them know what's going on. Fuck the other guys. Fuck the ones with the demands and the entitlement complexes. Know what Valve can do after they've spoken to the reasonable people and let them know what's happening? Go right back to ignoring the rest like they've been doing for the past four years anyway.

Yes, Valve saying something will not instantly stop people whining on the internet. But that's because you can never stop people whining on the internet.

That has no bearing whatsoever on whether the initial request is reasonable.So what if an announcement 'emboldens' people, what can they do? It doesn't make the situation any worse for Valve. Maybe it doesn't make it any better either, but it's just a damn press release saying "hey were are/are not working on it" - hardly going to cost them the earth.

deano2099
13-02-2012, 03:40 AM
Give an inch, they'll take a mile.

How? How will they take this mile?

archonsod
13-02-2012, 06:56 AM
Shits & fucks? Does it really have to come down to that? A grown man reduced to sweary derision in lieu of a solid counter point? Give it a rest.
As I always say, if you don't like my Anglo Saxon feel free to fuck off back to Normandy.

But they do give two to multiple shits about the fanbase considering how they treat their fans
No, they care about their money, not the fans. They're just very good at marketing. Which again, is another good reason not to answer the question - as long as people continue to talk about it, they don't need to spend any money on advertising.

Kadayi
13-02-2012, 08:45 AM
As I always say, if you don't like my Anglo Saxon feel free to fuck off back to Normandy.

I don't care whether you swear, but if that's all you've got in lieu of an actual solid counter point maybe it's you who should be the one getting on the boat to Normandy (you've certainly got no reason to be in this thread).


No, they care about their money, not the fans.

We're talking about Valve software here, not Bobby Kotick. Whom exactly are you hoping to convince with wild statements like that?

Mihkel
13-02-2012, 09:34 AM
So, what? That reads to me like Half Life fans are hoping they'll be given the royal treatment, because Valve gave some critics plane tickets a while back. What a dangerous precedent.

I don't see how expecting some information is royal treatment.


No, they care about their money, not the fans. They're just very good at marketing. Which again, is another good reason not to answer the question - as long as people continue to talk about it, they don't need to spend any money on advertising.

Not really, EP3 is very close to becoming vaporware. The risk there is that people will stop caring about one's product and not want it anymore. If anything that's bad marketing.

soldant
13-02-2012, 09:51 AM
I don't see how expecting some information is royal treatment.
It wasn't even an expectation, it was just a request. It was like saying "Valve, we're still interested, could you please tell us something?" not "TELL ME. NOW."

Bhazor
13-02-2012, 10:44 AM
Game developers shouldn't live in a vacuum. That should be the lesson of 3D Realms.



We're talking about Valve software here, not Bobby Kotick. Whom exactly are you hoping to convince with wild statements like that?

You haven't played TF2 recently have you?

Kadayi
13-02-2012, 11:28 AM
It occured to me this morning that this whole situation with the naysayers is very reminiscent of what happened in the US under the Bush years where in anyone questioning the actions (or inactions) of Dubya and his cronies was instantly labelled as 'unAmerican' and 'unpatriotic', as if the very act of questioning those in control was somehow an act of treason in what is supposed to be a democracy. Valve clearly outlined that the episodes would be a trilogy and the intention was to wrap them up by 2007, and the consumer base bought into that idea. That Valve have overshot every release date they've given doesn't really seem much of an out from what I can see with regard to commitment they themselves made to the press and public. It's been over 4 years now since EP2 and 5 years since the trilogy was originally expected to be concluded, and frankly I just don't see what's 'unAmerican' about asking them (especially after this length of time) what the state of play is to be honest.


You haven't played TF2 recently have you?

Care to elaborate on your meaning? Seems to me over the years Valve have given out plenty of things for 'free' like DLC. Something most other companies charge for.

Unaco
13-02-2012, 12:54 PM
It occured to me this morning that this whole situation with the naysayers is very reminiscent of what happened in the US under the Bush years where in anyone questioning the actions (or inactions) of Dubya and his cronies was instantly labelled as 'unAmerican' and 'unpatriotic', as if the very act of questioning those in control was somehow an act of treason in what is supposed to be a democracy.

And Kadayi wins for needless hyperbole and insulting insinuation against his opponents in this thread.

Namdrol
13-02-2012, 12:58 PM
Some quotes from the Neil Gaiman article that was linked earlier (replace George RR Martin with Valve, book with vidyagame):


Yes, it's unrealistic of you to think George is "letting you down".

George R.R. Martin is not your bitch.

This is a useful thing to know, perhaps a useful thing to point out when you find yourself thinking that possibly George is, indeed, your bitch, and should be out there typing what you want to read right now.

You're complaining about George doing other things than writing the books you want to read as if your buying the first book in the series was a contract with him: that you would pay over your ten dollars, and George for his part would spend every waking hour until the series was done, writing the rest of the books for you.

No such contract existed. You were paying your ten dollars for the book you were reading, and I assume that you enjoyed it because you want to know what happens next.

It seems to me that the biggest problem with series books is that either readers complain that the books used to be good but that somewhere in the effort to get out a book every year the quality has fallen off, or they complain that the books, although maintaining quality, aren't coming out on time.

For me, I would rather read a good book, from a contented author. I don't really care what it takes to produce that.

Sometimes writers haven't quite got the next book in a series ready in their heads, but they have something else all ready instead, so they write the thing that's ready to go, prompting cries of outrage from people who want to know why the author could possibly write Book X while the fans were waiting for Book Y.

And if you are waiting for a new book in a long ongoing series, whether from George or from Pat Rothfuss or from someone else...

Wait. Read the original book again. Read something else. Get on with your life. Hope that the author is writing the book you want to read, and not dying, or something equally as dramatic. And if he paints the house, that's fine.

And Gareth, in the future, when you see other people complaining that George R.R. Martin has been spotted doing something other than writing the book they are waiting for, explain to them, more politely than I did the first time, the simple and unanswerable truth: George R. R. Martin is not working for you.

Hope that helps.

Kadayi
13-02-2012, 01:24 PM
And Kadayi wins for needless hyperbole and insulting insinuation against his opponents in this thread.

Demonstrate that the analogy is wrong Unaco. Take your time. I'm extremely patient.


Some quotes from the Neil Gaiman article that was linked earlier (replace George RR Martin with Valve, book with vidyagame):

Already debunked in the Sunday papers.

Unaco
13-02-2012, 01:34 PM
Demonstrate that the analogy is wrong Unaco. Take your time. I'm extremely patient.

Is it cool if I use your own words (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?2700-A-Call-for-Communication&p=81207&viewfull=1#post81207) to do that? Or would that be too embarrassing for you? Comparisons, as you say, have to be made like for like. The hyperbole and grandstanding of Politics and the machinations of Politicians are by no means analogous to us here discussing vidya games. I don't see anyone here calling either side un-Valve or anti-Vidya game, or anti-American or unpatriotic.

Face it, your analogy was ridiculously overblown, and was chosen so, essentially, you could paint your opponents as the Bush Cronies or whatever, and your side as the victims. So you could go "Them Bad! Us Good!".

But I'm not going to get into a long winded argument here. You've shown, in previous threads, that you are unable to concede when you are shown to be wrong.

DeekyFun
13-02-2012, 01:37 PM
There's nothing wrong with asking a company for information about a product. There's nothing particularly wrong about hoping for an answer about that question, a good public relations would assume that the company would want to reply. There's nothing wrong with feeling annoyed if a company doesn't answer. But I still don't think they owe you that answer. You didn't pay for it.

Kadayi
13-02-2012, 01:44 PM
Snip.

Nice effort, but of course the comparison I'm making is about the right to questions things, and those who would seemingly deny it, not necessarily politics per se.

That you seem hellbent on convincing us that the CFC are somehow grossly out of order daring to ask about episode 3 does seem to imply that you have some stake in defending Valve for reasons unknown. After all why else would you do it? I think there's an obvious parallel there to the whole 'UnAmerican' phenomena, without recourse to getting into anything deeply political with regards to the machinery.

Feel free to get your coat now Unaco if you must.

Unaco
13-02-2012, 01:53 PM
Want to actually decide what you want to say, rather than editing everything Kadayi? Sheesh.

Your comparison is not about the right to question things. You comparison is about how your opponents react. You weren't complaining about your right to question things... you were insinuating that your opponents here are like Group X (Group X being those who labelled dissent as un-American or unPatriotic... those who attacked the people who asked questions). You are not being attacked, and denigrated, for your audacity at asking questions of Valve. People are arguing with the expectation of an answer, your right to an answer, and your right to know what Valve are doing.

Unaco
13-02-2012, 01:57 PM
That you seem hellbent on convincing us that the CFC are somehow grossly out of order daring to ask about episode 3 does seem to imply that you have some stake in defending Valve for reasons unknown. After all why else would you do it? I think there's an obvious parallel there to the whole 'UnAmerican' phenomena, without recourse to getting into anything deeply political with regards to the machinery.

I'm not Hellbent on anything Kadayi... Least of all convincing people that CFC are somehow grossly out of order, yadda yadda yadda. They have every right to ask whatever questions they want... I would never stop people doing that. What I don't think they have a right to, or an expectation of, is an answer from Valve. Publicity wise, Valve would be pretty dumb to not respond to them... But as far as obligations and that go, Valve don't have to respond.

IDtenT
13-02-2012, 02:00 PM
I hate to bring it up, if it hasn't been already, but developers render a service. If I'm unhappy with a service then I'm wholly entitled to an opinion, or I could terminate said service.

Labbes
13-02-2012, 02:05 PM
There's nothing wrong with asking a company for information about a product. There's nothing particularly wrong about hoping for an answer about that question, a good public relations would assume that the company would want to reply. There's nothing wrong with feeling annoyed if a company doesn't answer. But I still don't think they owe you that answer. You didn't pay for it.

This is pretty much exactly what I was thinking, thanks for writing some sense among all this back-and-forth. Also, that last sentence made me smile.

Kadayi
13-02-2012, 02:06 PM
You are not being attacked, and denigrated, for your audacity at asking questions of Valve.

No there's absolutely nothing denigrating or insulting in Marsh Davies article at all: -


Of course, you don't have to go far on the internet, much less in gaming, to encounter egregious displays of self-entitlement. That particular mixture of naivety and self-absorption is the principle feature of an X-Factor generation, regularly flattered into thinking their views are of vital importance by cheap marketing initiatives to "drive engagement" - rhetorical questions on Facebook; the Like button; text to vote now! Why not get on YouTube and unload your soul into the digital ether? You are worth it, you beautiful snowflake.

Whom exactly are you trying to fool here Unaco save yourself?

If that entire article is not an out and out case of 'you have no right to question your Gods so accept what you're given' I don't know what is.


There's nothing wrong with asking a company for information about a product. There's nothing particularly wrong about hoping for an answer about that question, a good public relations would assume that the company would want to reply. There's nothing wrong with feeling annoyed if a company doesn't answer. But I still don't think they owe you that answer. You didn't pay for it.

If you've brought it on franchise on the promise of there being more (Valve always stated it was going to be a trilogy) then there's a expectation that they will deliver upon it, and if they are unable to fulfill the delivery then at least be decent enough to notify people why rather than leave an audience hanging. That's just being civil. It been over 4 years since EP2 was released. The CFC have asked a civil question, why shouldn't they expect a civil answer?

Nalano
13-02-2012, 02:16 PM
It occured to me this morning that this whole situation with the naysayers is very reminiscent of what happened in the US under the Bush years where in anyone questioning the actions (or inactions) of Dubya and his cronies was instantly labelled as 'unAmerican' and 'unpatriotic', as if the very act of questioning those in control was somehow an act of treason in what is supposed to be a democracy.

Really?

It occurred to you that, in this video game forum, you're speaking truth to power against the corrupt cronyists who want nothing more than to shut you up?

Jesus titty-fucking Christ, man, not even Rush Limbaugh has an ego that big.

Unaco
13-02-2012, 02:20 PM
Kadayi... I give up. Every time I start to make a response, you shift the goalposts by editing your posts. Last response, not that it will do anything to change your mind Kadayi, you have your narrative and you're running with it.

Again... No one is attacking your right to ask questions. People are arguing against your right to an answer, or the obligation that Valve have to answer. It's not the questioning, it's the belief you have a right to an answer, or that your question really matters in the scheme of things.

But... to go back to your analogy, which is the thing I'm objecting to. No one is labelling you un-Valve, or anti-Vidya games because you are asking questions. You analogy doesn't stand. People are not attacking the asking of questions.

Unaco
13-02-2012, 02:22 PM
Jesus titty-f*cking Christ, man, not even Rush Limbaugh has an ego that big.

I wanted to be a bit more polite than this, but yeah... Kadayi's analogy is ridiculously overblown, and I believe it was done, not to advance the discussion at all, but instead to paint his opponents as something bad.

Kadayi
13-02-2012, 02:22 PM
-Snip-

I've already stated I don't particularly care for your O/T side commentary in this thread. Unless you've got some legitimate counterpoint don't bother posting.


Again... No one is attacking your right to ask questions. People are arguing against your right to an answer, or the obligation that Valve have to answer. It's not the questioning, it's the belief you have a right to an answer, or that your question really matters in the scheme of things.

One follows the other. If you're saying that there is no right to an answer then your effectively saying there is no right to to ask the question in the first place. So yes comparisons do hold up.

Unaco
13-02-2012, 02:27 PM
I've already stated I don't particularly care for your O/T side commentary in this thread.

Kadayi, I don't think this is your thread... is it? I don't think you can determine who posts and who doesn't, unless I'm mistaken. I'll admit, most of what Nalano posts is nonsense, but here I think he's right. Your analogy doesn't work, it doesn't help the debate, doesn't help the discussion move forward. All it does is attack your opponents. Not good. Not civil. Not helpful. It's vastly overblown, and their is no comparison between the Politics of the Bush years and this situation.

Kadayi
13-02-2012, 02:32 PM
Kadayi, I don't think this is your thread... is it? I don't think you can determine who posts and who doesn't

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?104-The-Rules&p=1955#post1955

Unaco
13-02-2012, 02:34 PM
The rules? Have you read #2? About not insulting each other? Do you not think that likening your opponents, needlessly, to the Neocons is something of an insult?

Kadayi
13-02-2012, 02:40 PM
The rules? Have you read #2? About not insulting each other? Do you not think that likening your opponents, needlessly, to the Neocons is something of an insult?

Is being a neocon an actual insult? Calling someone a wanker certainly is, but I'm not entirely convinced likening someone to a Neocon qualifies. After all it's a phrase the Republicans came up with themselves.

Unaco
13-02-2012, 02:44 PM
Is being a neocon an actual insult? Calling someone a wanker a certainly is, but I'm not entirely convinced calling someone a Neocon is. Alter all it's a phrase the Republicans came up with themselves.

OK, maybe not calling someone a Neocon, but likening the way your opponents treat you to how Neocons treated dissent, is somewhat insulting... especially as it isn't grounded in fact, is vastly overblown, and was done, not to advance the debate, but to paint your opponents as something they are not, and to denigrate them. So why quote the rules as a reason why Nalano should stop posting? His insult to you was no greater than your insult to your opponents.

Just apologise for the silly, and wilfully disruptive analogy Kadayi.

Kadayi
13-02-2012, 03:01 PM
but likening the way your opponents treat you to how Neocons treated dissent, is somewhat insulting...

Well maybe to you, but I sure a lot of other people will laugh and smile about it. Who knew you were such a fragile snowflake.

Unaco
13-02-2012, 03:10 PM
Well maybe to you, but I sure a lot of other people will laugh and smile about it. Who knew you were such a fragile snowflake.

So... Saying your opponents (in this debate) simply attack dissent, label dissenters as anti-Valve and haters or whatnot is not insulting? Saying your opponents are not engaging in debate, but are just being reactionary, jingoistic and unreasonable is not insulting?

Just apologise for the silly, and wilfully disruptive analogy Kadayi.

DeekyFun
13-02-2012, 03:14 PM
If you've brought it on franchise on the promise of there being more (Valve always stated it was going to be a trilogy) then there's a expectation that they will deliver upon it, and if they are unable to fulfill the delivery then at least be decent enough to notify people why rather than leave an audience hanging. That's just being civil. It been over 4 years since EP2 was released. The CFC have asked a civil question, why shouldn't they expect a civil answer?

I don't necessarily disagree with that sentiment - people have every right to ask questions of Valve, to take an interest in their products and ask what's going on, and it would be considered civil for Valve to respond, as well as economical, you would have thought. But the main issue is the line between wanting an answer and deserving one. Valve have their right to their silence, even if it might appear pathological. They are no more contractually obliged to answer your questions than you are obliged to purchase all their products for the rest of your life.

Personally, I think they should answer. It makes sense to me. But you can't convince me that there's some unwritten law, divine right, or contractual obligation for them to do it. I don't really think you think that either - this discussion just seems to have spiralled somewhat out of control.

Kadayi
13-02-2012, 03:33 PM
They are no more contractually obliged to answer your questions than you are obliged to purchase all their products for the rest of your life.

I think the issue is that it's fundamentally flawed to reduce the entire discussion down to the idea of purely contractual obligations. This isn't a legal issue. It's not a case of consumers taking a company to court for damages over breach of contract. It's bigger than that. In the Sunday papers Sinderlin comes at it from a philosophical angle which is well worth taking on board (scroll down).

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/02/12/the-sunday-papers-205/#comment-page-6

As you yourself acknowledge at the end you believe that Valve should answer the question. If that's the case there must be some reason why (despite the lack of legal obligation) that you feel that way? What's your rationale?

Personally I've never purported that Valve are under any legal obligation. However I do recognize that Valve sold the episodes to both the press and the public as a trilogy and at the time they did outline a time frame for delivery of that body of work. That Valve have overshot that time frame by a good few years now has understandably has left a lot of people frustrated (because through no fault of their own they've invested themselves in a story line they believed was forthcoming), and I don't think it serves any good purpose for Valve to maintain their continued silence on the subject. Sure they're not legally obliged to say anything, but it a would be a gesture of goodwill to a fan base which lets be honest has been more than patient over the years.

Namdrol
13-02-2012, 04:09 PM
Already debunked in the Sunday papers.

So George RR Martin and Valve do work for 'the fans' and are, in fact, their bitches? Must of missed that article.

Kadayi
13-02-2012, 04:32 PM
So George RR Martin and Valve do work for 'the fans' and are, in fact, their bitches? Must of missed that article.

What NG is arguing about is something entirely different from this discussion. Read what Hematite says through the thread.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/02/12/the-sunday-papers-205/#comment-page-5

DeekyFun
13-02-2012, 08:07 PM
I think the issue is that it's fundamentally flawed to reduce the entire discussion down to the idea of purely contractual obligations. This isn't a legal issue. It's not a case of consumers taking a company to court for damages over breach of contract. It's bigger than that. In the Sunday papers Sinderlin comes at it from a philosophical angle which is well worth taking on board (scroll down).

I agree that moral obligation exists and is an interesting point, but I find it difficult to affix such things to this particular issue. Firstly, I don't think you can apply a set of moral obligations on someone else; it's for them to decide what they are obligated to do, and to what extent they owe someone a task that requires performing. You can't come from the angle of expectation that way round. Linked to this, is also the fact that you're dealing with a company in this case, an entire group of people who's motivations when in that group are to sell games to earn a living. While Businesses obviously to have to deal with ethical or moral obligations all the time, those issues tend to be on things like environmental legislation, working conditions, things which are considered harmful to people in society, and again, law and contractual needs them come back into play (though I'm trying not to bang on about that). It's also naive to think that even in the case where those sorts of decisions are made, that a psychological pact between consumer and provider is the primary motivator. We both have acknowledged that we think Valve should have decided to make some sort of announcement about their intentions with Episode 3. You might think that they owe that to the gamers that have invested in them, but you think they should because not saying anything seems harmful to their business through poor PR and disgruntled customers. That's a business decision. And, and this is where the difference is between our view, I think; I think that is their decision to make, regardless of whether I think it's the right one or not.

I feel that way because of a combination of factors. As I've said, to me, with my albeit limited experience, it makes more sense to say something rather than leave people angry. I also think there's a precedent set in the sales industry, which while again, not an obligation, does come down to customer service. It's not quite as simple as that though, because we're talking about a product which doesn't exist yet, and which no one has paid for. Yes, people are invested in the story; they've tasted the wares and they want more. If I make the most kick-ass pasta bake (with meatballs and bacon bits and cheese) for a bunch of people one time, and they love it, I don't ever have to make it for them again. If I plan to make them one in the future, and I don't, or I take my sweet time over it, they have every right to ask for it, to remind me, to complain, to get angry, to do whatever they like within the law (my pasta bake is very tasty). But I still don't have to make it. Okay, sorry for the very trite analogy, but it amused me.

Sorry for the rambling. Anyway. My basic point is that my rationale is that regardless of what I want from Valve, what I 'expect', it is not something that they ever have to fulfill. They have their own reasons and they've made their own decisions. If they do decide to do, it won't be because they owed it to me, it'll be because they choose to do it, to whatever end. I fully understand why people are waiting for news on HL - I'm sure most people here would love to read info on it. I'm not even against the idea of people campaigning to make Valve away of their interest, though I've no desire to participate (so many games left to complete), but I don't agree that there's any form of subtextual or complicit agreement or moral need for a company like Valve to comply.

Apologies for going on.

archonsod
13-02-2012, 08:32 PM
I don't care whether you swear, but if that's all you've got in lieu of an actual solid counter point
I made several solid counterpoints. As usual, you opted to completely evade answering them in favour of picking up on something utterly irrelevant to the question at hand instead. Are you sure you aren't a politician?


Not really, EP3 is very close to becoming vaporware. The risk there is that people will stop caring about one's product and not want it anymore. If anything that's bad marketing.

It's hardly at Duke Nukem Forever status yet. I don't think 'caring' about the product is really the right term to use. It's not a question of people being enthusiastic about it, more one of brand recognition. DNF in fact is a good example for that at work - given the gap between the games I'm pretty sure a large percentage of the market had never played Duke Nukem 3D, but they still knew what DNF was, even if it was as a joke. It'd cost you millions to achieve the same thing with advertising.


it would be considered civil for Valve to respond, as well as economical, you would have thought.
It's usually bad for business to let your competitors know what you're doing with your IP until they can't respond in any competitive industry. Plus as I said earlier it can end up biting you in the arse later on; it's no good saying "we're working on it" if you're going to decide in two years time to shelve it, or farm it out to another studio.
Plus it's a lose - lose situation for Valve. If they say they're not working on it there'd be a backlash, if they say they are working on it then it'll just build people's hopes up (which will trigger another backlash when the fanbase arbitrarily decide it's taking too long).
And that's assuming they're at liberty to answer in the first place. For all we know HL3 could be signed up as a launch title for the next console generation, in which case it'd likely be NDA'd by the manufacturer until they were ready to announce such things.

RobF
13-02-2012, 08:43 PM
People are not attacking the asking of questions.

The article that you agree with is doing just that, rather explicitly too.


But just because someone's willing to give, doesn't make it polite to ask.

It even recontextualises the *entire* Call For Communication polite request as a demand to hammer this point home. That it is rude to ask and how very dare you.

Kadayi
13-02-2012, 09:08 PM
I don't think you can apply a set of moral obligations on someone else; it's for them to decide what they are obligated to do, and to what extent they owe someone a task that requires performing.

TBH you need to take your issues with Sinderlin in the thread. I'm not a philosophy major so I can't can't speak on his behalf, though I'm sure he has an answers for you.

However with regard to that particular point, it's not a case of delivering Episode 3, it's a case of simply communicating the state of play with regard to episode 3. The whole trilogy of titles was supposed of been wrapped up by Christmas 2007. We're 4 years on and there hasn't even been a sniff of news regarding a series which was left on a cliffhanger. Exactly at what point does it become acceptable in your view to inquire as to what's happening? 5 years, 10 years never?

Put it another way. You get a flyer through the door from a Chinese take-away and thinking it looks good you order in some takeout and you're told at the time that that it will take 15 minutes to turn up. 4 hours pass and still no food turns up. But as you've not actually paid for the food yet (you have cash) are you in the wrong if you phone up the Takeaway and ask them what's happening? According to Marsh Davies, Unaco, and a whole bunch of others you bloody well are.


I made several solid counterpoints.

Bring them on old man.

DeekyFun
13-02-2012, 09:22 PM
Exactly at what point does it become acceptable in your view to inquire as to what's happening? 5 years, 10 years never?


I think I've said in every reply that I believe it acceptable to ask at any point. My issue isn't with the request for the information, it's the thrust of the original argument, which is the assumption that because you've asked a question, you deserve an answer. Ask the question. Hope for a answer. Hope for the right answer. Expect nothing. I hope you do (and everyone else that wants them) get your answers.

Kadayi
13-02-2012, 09:57 PM
I think I've said in every reply that I believe it acceptable to ask at any point. My issue isn't with the request for the information, it's the thrust of the original argument, which is the assumption that because you've asked a question, you deserve an answer. Ask the question. Hope for a answer. Hope for the right answer. Expect nothing. I hope you do (and everyone else that wants them) get your answers.

TBH the 'Valvetime'* joke wore thin for a lot of people a while back. I hope the CFC get a response/acknowledgement from Valve. They've been pretty civil and frankly more than patient about the lack of information (I think Marsh Davies lumping them in with the L4D boycotters and Minecraft DDosers was extremely misleading). Will Valve respond? Probably not, and if they do it will be generalized rather than specific response. Purely as an act of goodwill I hope they do, if nothing more than to put that terrible article to shame.

My inclination after this much time is that EP3 has been rolled into a full game which also comes with a brand new engine. Albeit Valve built the Source engine in a modular manner so they could upgrade it as they went along, they woefully under-estimated what the competition were going to be doing with map extents at the time. Source as is, simply isn't capable of competing against the Frostbytes or Cryengines in terms of map size, and that's not something Valve can address through modular updates. If you explore the maps they built for their games using hammer you quickly realize that there's a lot of smoke and mirrors going on in terms of layout in order to make up for the engines spatial deficiencies. However it's not something that is worth continuing to wrestle with Vs building a newer engine more suited to larger environments coupled with handling greater complexity and easier porting to the consoles (you really do have to be multi-platform these days).

Once DoTA2 and CS:GO are out the way I expect we'll hear something substantial. Valve aren't going to muddy the waters until both those projects are finalized.




* there's an amusing association I have with that particular term which regrettably I'm unable to share at this point in time, though maybe in a few weeks. (fingers crossed).

Kevin
13-02-2012, 11:42 PM
"Not a service"? I can see the argument, yes.

"Bad craft" on Valve's part for putting this off for so long and working on projects with budgets that could very well have been put into Half-Life 3 to make it the best thing since sliced bread? I'd think so.

I mean, wouldn't people get rightly pissed off if Peter Jackson stopped at "The Two Towers" to work on the "King Kong" remake and produce "District 9" and "Tintin", then offered absolutely no word on how "Return of the King" was doing?

soldant
14-02-2012, 01:10 AM
They've been pretty civil and frankly more than patient about the lack of information (I think Marsh Davies lumping them in with the L4D boycotters and Minecraft DDosers was extremely misleading).
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story! Especially one where you have the chance to tear a group of people to pieces.


My inclination after this much time is that EP3 has been rolled into a full game which also comes with a brand new engine.
You are most probably correct, because...


If you explore the maps they built for their games using hammer you quickly realize that there's a lot of smoke and mirrors going on in terms of layout in order to make up for the engines spatial deficiencies.
When HL2 and Doom 3 were new, I started learning how to map for both of them. Apart from Doom 3 actually being a lot easier to work with (pretty much everything was just plain text, and its map editor was way better than Hammer), the biggest difference was the maps. Doom 3 maps were, on average, larger and had a LOT more detail. There were way more clutter items in the world, as well as a lot more detailed world meshes and wall designs. HL2 consists mostly of large, flat blocks that rely entirely on the texture to carry them, with a handful of "showpiece" areas where they bump up the clutter for a bit. Much of it is empty though, particularly the airboat/car segments, or are carefully split up and use low-quality assets to reduce the performance hit.

It's looking dated these days. They've done a remarkable job at improving it, but fact is the engine has been kicking around since 2004, when a 9800 Pro was a good GPU. They can update and add to it as much as they like, but eventually it'll be time to start again.


Once DoTA2 and CS:GO are out the way I expect we'll hear something substantial. Valve aren't going to muddy the waters until both those projects are finalized.
Actually this is worth mentioning, because Valve clearly aren't bad at communicating with the fans. They're happy to drip-feed people about DOTA2, and Portal 2 when it was in development, and they were happy to clearly link EP1 and EP2. Valve's absolute silence on EP3/HL3 seems to be something specific to the Half Life games.

gwathdring
14-02-2012, 04:42 AM
I mean, wouldn't people get rightly pissed off if Peter Jackson stopped at "The Two Towers" to work on the "King Kong" remake and produce "District 9" and "Tintin", then offered absolutely no word on how "Return of the King" was doing?

I don't believe so. Not rightly. Sequels get dumped all the time. Shows get canceled. It is one thing to express righteous anger with a company canceling your show for political reasons, or dropping your game becasue they thought it wouldn't sell well despite clear evidence to the contrary (clear evidence preferably being more substantial than a couple of online petitions and some angry mail). It is another entirely, and one I find distasteful, to express the same when the director or writer or author simply isn't interested in producing the work.

I believe someone further back in the conversation explicitly mentioned that the later sort bothered them more. Author apathy killing their pet projects. This seems incredibly backwards and unfair to me. Be sad, be miffed, be angry at the situation ... but why waste your energy on bitterness towards content creators who invest their time primarily in projects they feel confident and excited about? I perfectly understand being upset at losing your chance to see the series close, to play something like the game you loved without having to walk through the same room for the umpteenth time. But as a writer myself, I also understand what it is like to lose interest in a project that started out exciting. Sometimes I start to feel particular projects weighing down on my ability to create--either for commissioned projects or purely pleasurable ones. They can get to a point where you cannot do them justice, or cannot motivate yourself to complete them, or even where they sap your interest in content creation altogether.

Do you really think you deserve more say in whether or not a creator should complete a project than the creator does? Petition, ask, beg ... go right ahead. Get excited about things, be sad to see them go. But sometimes "bad craft" is not knowing when to quit.

As a semi-serious side-note, I'm getting rather annoyed by that phrase. You don't know it would have been better than sliced bread, and honestly I could do without sliced bread myself, preferring fresh loaves I can break snack-size pieces off of or use to produce varied thicknesses of sandwich. Er ... there was a metaphor in there somewhere, but now all I can think of is fresh bread. Probably something about begging the fresh bread to ensure your answer was the right fresh bread. It is something of a fresh bread inconsistency.

Kevin
14-02-2012, 06:35 AM
As a semi-serious side-note, I'm getting rather annoyed by that phrase. You don't know it would have been better than sliced bread, and honestly I could do without sliced bread myself, preferring fresh loaves I can break snack-size pieces off of or use to produce varied thicknesses of sandwich. Er ... there was a metaphor in there somewhere, but now all I can think of is fresh bread. Probably something about begging the fresh bread to ensure your answer was the right fresh bread. It is something of a fresh bread inconsistency.

I suppose I could have come up with a less trite metaphor. How about: "The best thing since a place to crap in with a door on it"?

soldant
14-02-2012, 06:59 AM
I suppose I could have come up with a less trite metaphor. How about: "The best thing since a place to crap in with a door on it"?
There is no such thing outside of the flush toilet.

Nalano
14-02-2012, 07:20 AM
There is no such thing outside of the flush toilet.

/blink

10char

soldant
14-02-2012, 08:09 AM
/blink
You heard me. Flush toilet is god! PEE FOR THE PEE GOD. FAECES FOR THE FAECAL THRONE.

deano2099
14-02-2012, 08:50 AM
Do you really think you deserve more say in whether or not a creator should complete a project than the creator does?

No, but once you start selling the early parts of the work on the promise that you're going to finish it, then it does become an issue. If nothing else, it'd put you off buying any early parts of a creator's work again. If you're not willing to finish it, don't start selling it.

I'd note that this is different to books though, where a 4-5 year wait between installments is fairly common-place, and where the books are written to provide a solid narrative within themselves. These were announced as a trilogy of episodes that were to come out in short order. More pointedly, I can't imagine a situation where an author, if in a similar position, wouldn't at least have the decency to tell folks what was going on.

[I feel at this point I should point out I don't give a shit about Episode 3 or Half Life, I've not even played the first two episodes, I'm only fighting this corner on principle]

Namdrol
14-02-2012, 12:19 PM
What NG is arguing about is something entirely different from this discussion. Read what Hematite says through the thread.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/02/12/the-sunday-papers-205/#comment-page-5

and Kieron Gillle does a good job at rebutting Hematite...nothing's been debunked.

Namdrol
14-02-2012, 12:26 PM
And that's assuming they're at liberty to answer in the first place. For all we know HL3 could be signed up as a launch title for the next console generation, in which case it'd likely be NDA'd by the manufacturer until they were ready to announce such things.

There might be solid business reasons, like you mentioned. What if Valve was given mad cash to make HL3 Xbox720 exclusive for launch? Is valve under any obligation to tell people this now, NDAs aside? Are they under any obligation to not make it 720 exclusive?

squirrel
14-02-2012, 01:22 PM
Since it's a game with a story background, and if the story has an ending not revealed in the latest episode, then it would be nice for Valve to carry on the franchise. But I must say I dont know about the ending issue since I am not really into Half-Life games. But you see there are some great games with story background and unrevealed endings like Shenmue. I really want Sega to seriously consider bringing back the franchise.

But business is business. In old days shooter games can be great hits, but those days are long gone. Now we have not just more than enough of shooter games, we are simply flooded by shooters. If one want to publish a shooter, one should have its work excel specifically in certain aspect. I believe that's how id Software's Rage or Gearbox's Duke Nuke something could not meet the commercial success they once hoped for. I read from RPS that Epics once commented that shooter games need new directions, say, RPG gameplay should be incorporated into shooter. Success of STALKER franchise has proved that such innovations worked.

If Valve could not develop such innovation, or for whatever reason they need to hoard such new ideas for the future, it is a wise decision to hold back for a while, until they are ready. Why in a rush? There are too many games we can choose among.

Kadayi
14-02-2012, 10:58 PM
and Kieron Gillle does a good job at rebutting Hematite...nothing's been debunked.

Anyone would think the discussion had ended.

R-F
15-02-2012, 12:25 AM
So, basically, devs owe us nothing but their past, current and future livelihoods.

Nalano
15-02-2012, 12:31 AM
You heard me. Flush toilet is god! PEE FOR THE PEE GOD. FAECES FOR THE FAECAL THRONE.

Okay, I lol'd.

Kadayi
15-02-2012, 01:36 AM
The more times I read that article the more I wonder if it were a question being posed to EA or Ubisoft rather than Valve, whether people would be so adamant that Devs owe us (the potential consumer) nothing. Of Course EA and Ubisoft don't tend to tease, troll and stonewall their customers for years on end about their products but instead tend to be fairly upfront about what's going on and where they stand in terms of development, even if just to confirm nothing is happening at that point in time. Still it does point to an interesting if slightly dysfunctional relationship at play between Valve and their public.

soldant
15-02-2012, 02:46 AM
Okay, I lol'd.
To be serious for a second though, the flush toilet is one of our most stalwart companions. It provides comfort and relief in equal measure, willingly accepting abuse without complaint. It's always willing to accept punishment. Not a day goes by when I don't look at my toilet and go "Good job, friend."


The more times I read that article the more I wonder if it were a question being posed to EA or Ubisoft rather than Valve, whether people would be so adamant that Devs owe us (the potential consumer) nothing.
Which is why I have a problem with the whole "entitlement" rage because it seems people only apply it when it suits them. When it was announced MW2 wouldn't have dedicated servers, people went apeshit, threatening boycotts and all sorts of things. Is it entitlement to expect that they cater for dedicated servers if the devs decide it doesn't need to happen? Microsoft Flight is aimed at a larger section of the flight sim population (trying not to break my NDA here, although they've pissed me off with the beta in some ways) yet places like AVSIM are rife with burning hatred that Microsoft owe them and abandoned them with Flight. Is that a sense of entitlement, especially given how small they are as a community compared to the wider interest in flight sims? By extension of all this, is it entitlement for the PC to expect that every game comes with special content just for us, like high res texture packs, extensive modding support, and so on? If not, where do we draw the line? It's a pretty arbitrary definition, and I'm surprised so many people agreed with the article.

Which is why I really hate the article so much. Asking Valve if they were going to continue with the HL series was not anywhere near the "entitlement" badge considering some of the other actions of the gaming community when it comes to devs not doing what they want.

Nalano
15-02-2012, 02:51 AM
Which is why I really hate the article so much. Asking Valve if they were going to continue with the HL series was not anywhere near the "entitlement" badge considering some of the other actions of the gaming community when it comes to devs not doing what they want.

And the proper response to Activision vis-a-vis lack of dedicated servers is not to buy the game: It's not the product you want, so don't buy the product. I really don't see a correlation, here.

deano2099
15-02-2012, 04:40 AM
And the proper response to Activision vis-a-vis lack of dedicated servers is not to buy the game: It's not the product you want, so don't buy the product. I really don't see a correlation, here.

They didn't boycott it though. They threatened to boycott it.

And isn't the proper response vis-a-vis Valve's lack of communication over HL3 to ask them "what's going on with HL3?"

Nalano
15-02-2012, 04:54 AM
And isn't the proper response vis-a-vis Valve's lack of communication over HL3 to ask them "what's going on with HL3?"

No, their lack of communication is their lack of communication. It's their prerogative. Nothing needs be done. That's kinda the freakin' point.

soldant
15-02-2012, 05:51 AM
And the proper response to Activision vis-a-vis lack of dedicated servers is not to buy the game: It's not the product you want, so don't buy the product. I really don't see a correlation, here.
People screamed that Activision/IW should include dedicated servers in MW2. Flight simmers are screaming that Microsoft owe them and should have built MS Flight for them. If asking Valve, politely, for information about Half Life 3/EP3 is entitlement, then those certainly are. But those ones are picked up as legitimate issues, despite just being an abusive demand for X or Y. Yes, you can elect not to buy the game. But likewise just not buying it doesn't tell the devs why, and people were quite vocal about their problems.

It stands in stark contrast to Call for Communication, where the community was vilified under the banner of "entitlement", which only seems to apply when journalists don't agree with the issue.

Nalano
15-02-2012, 05:59 AM
Yes, you can elect not to buy the game. But likewise just not buying it doesn't tell the devs why, and people were quite vocal about their problems.

It stands in stark contrast to Call for Communication, where the community was vilified under the banner of "entitlement", which only seems to apply when journalists don't agree with the issue.

I'm not saying "don't complain." That's like trying to hold back the ocean. The internet is for complaining. Hell, here people are complaining about complaining. I reserve the right to mock them, after all. The part I'm taking umbrage with is the "they owe us" issue. The companies don't have to answer. The barbarians are at the gates, and they can choose to parley or pour boiling pitch. It's their prerogative.

And for all the bitching about dedicated servers, Activision/Infinity Ward clearly didn't care and it paid off for them in the end anyway, because console monkeys don't know what dedicated servers are. Journalists love a good fight, and jumped on the bandwagon mocking Acti/IW for their oversight, and then jumped on the bandwagon mocking the players for buying the game anyway.

I'm not saying the Valve is shooting themselves in the foot or not shooting themselves in the foot. It may well be a PR disaster, though I honestly don't think so. But whatever they do, they don't owe anybody an answer. You can ask. They don't have to answer. Saying they have to answer is entitlement: After all, who the hell are you?

And whaddaya gonna do, not buy the game they haven't released?

soldant
15-02-2012, 06:47 AM
I'm not saying that people shouldn't complain and I'm not saying Valve owe anybody anything. I'm just pointing out how the term "entitlement" and articles like in the OP are just so friggin' ridiculous, and I'm astounded that so many people on RPS, who usually are a cut above the rest of the gaming populous, fell for it hook, line and sinker. It's only ever entitlement when it's the other guy's problem. I'm pointing out that the term "entitlement" might as well mean jack shit.

Nalano
15-02-2012, 06:58 AM
I'm not saying that people shouldn't complain and I'm not saying Valve owe anybody anything. I'm just pointing out how the term "entitlement" and articles like in the OP are just so friggin' ridiculous, and I'm astounded that so many people on RPS, who usually are a cut above the rest of the gaming populous, fell for it hook, line and sinker. It's only ever entitlement when it's the other guy's problem. I'm pointing out that the term "entitlement" might as well mean jack shit.

No, I think it's a perfectly acceptable rant: Valve doesn't owe anybody anything, and the thousands-strong protest and public statements of folks implying otherwise - y'know, things that prompted Davies' pushback in the first place - are aggressively wrongheaded. They're not marching on city hall: They're harassing a publishing house.

soldant
15-02-2012, 08:26 AM
No, I think it's a perfectly acceptable rant: Valve doesn't owe anybody anything, and the thousands-strong protest and public statements of folks implying otherwise - y'know, things that prompted Davies' pushback in the first place - are aggressively wrongheaded. They're not marching on city hall: They're harassing a publishing house.
A Call for Communication never claimed Valve owe anybody anything. That's just a fabrication. A Call for Communication was about reminding Valve that people are still interested and that they would like to know something, anything about the HL series. That's stark contrast to "Valve owe us for the rest of the series blah blah blah." Hell they didn't harass anybody. The article deliberately misrepresented A Call for Communication and turned it from a simple request for Valve to say something, to a ranting pack of fanboys demanding that Valve disclose everything and spitting venom and hatred until they get their way. Which is an absolute load of crap.

If they'd chosen a different ranting group, as in one that actually acts with hatred and vomits forth demands, the article might have merit. But they fabricated a load of crap about a Steam group to get their article.

Kadayi
15-02-2012, 08:42 AM
Which is why I have a problem with the whole "entitlement" rage because it seems people only apply it when it suits them.

Indeed this double standard approach to how Valve operate Vs how everyone else operates is frankly bizarre. Why people flock to their defense whenever they are criticized like some deluded abused wife is beyond me. Valve are no more beyond reproach than any other developer at the end of the day, and just because they have fits of generosity at times doesn't make when they do act up any more acceptable.

Valve have repeatedly dick slapped their supposed fan base quite a few times over the years. I think it's about time some people woke up to this fact and got up off their knees.

Nalano
15-02-2012, 09:47 AM
If they'd chosen a different ranting group, as in one that actually acts with hatred and vomits forth demands, the article might have merit. But they fabricated a load of crap about a Steam group to get their article.

He lumped it with a bunch of other examples, a lot of which are egregious, just as Edge Magazine did (http://www.edge-online.com/opinion/opinion-dangers-gamer-entitlement). He was discussing a trend, and using Valve as biggest name, and spent more than half the article discussing why it was not the same as other circumstances in which the consumers had a more immediate relationship with the producers - where, for instance, monthly fees were on the line.

That said, "Your oldest and longest running fanbase would like better communication. [...] fans should be acknowledged." That's a very kindly worded demand, based on... what? That they bought a game six years ago. That their money is somehow worth more than the L4D or TF2 money. And a protest is a protest.

Valve is not a public body, and the fact that this sort of thing has come to the fore should bring any creator pause, because it's a scary fucking revelation: These fans are adamant, and anybody who thinks they have a right to up and ask, en masse, "so when's the next one coming out," should be treated at arm's length. I can think of no answer that would make them go, "oh, alright then," and go away, and more importantly, if I were the creator I would wonder what kind of monster I wrought that they would show up in the first place.

I'm reminded of the comic cons I've been to, where inevitably there'd be some whackaloon that'd ask whatever artist was speaking at the moment, "so when are you gonna make X," to which the artist would respond, unless the talk was about X, with a fairly terse non-answer. Because those kinds of fans are crazy.

Kadayi
15-02-2012, 12:32 PM
Valve aren't an artist. They're a company no different to EA or Ubisoft or anyone else. Being private or public doesn't alter that dynamic in any way shape or form. They said the entire trilogy would be resolved by 2007 and they left the storyline on a cliffhanger over 4 years ago. This notion that they don't owe the customers who bought into that original assurance regarding a time frame for completion any form explanation as to the continued absence regarding that missing conclusion is a complete fallacy, that simply doesn't hold up when applied to pretty much another other developer or business. Quit enabling them to treat their fan base with contempt.

Kevin
15-02-2012, 12:41 PM
On the subject devs delivering stuff that they have touted to consumers, this seems relevant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXAAzImJiT0&context=C3a13aedADOEgsToPDskIwvvKvXD1MhziVVVstMlSc

Namdrol
15-02-2012, 12:47 PM
Valve have repeatedly dick slapped their supposed fan base quite a few times over the years. I think it's about time some people woke up to this fact and got up off their knees.

huh? Valve is a company, like Wallmart/Ford/CocaCola. The make a product or a service, then they sell said product or service. It is an economic relationship they have with their customers, nothing more.

Now there are customers that have an emotional tie to Valve, just like some have an emotional tie to Wallmart/Ford/Coke, but that doesn't change the fact that the real relationship iseconomic. The only thing that is owed to the customer is the product or service, and the only thing owed to the company in return is payment.

What if the reverse were happening, and Coke started demanding things of some person who had bought a 2 litre bottle of soda from them--like phone calls demanding to know when they were going to buy the next one, or constant emails telling the customer that they owe Coke inc some kind of allegiance and declaration of future purchasing decisions. It would be ludicrous.

soldant
15-02-2012, 12:50 PM
That said, "Your oldest and longest running fanbase would like better communication. [...] fans should be acknowledged." That's a very kindly worded demand, based on... what? That they bought a game six years ago. That their money is somehow worth more than the L4D or TF2 money. And a protest is a protest.
"Should" in this case does not mean "must", given that the first part is "would like" not "expect". Furthermore the group description goes on not to demand specific information, but to "ask" (key word: ask, not demand) Valve if they were continuing the series or were taking a break. The group does not demand a sequel. The group does not demand it be rushed. They do not demand information. They ask. Lumping that in with the ranting examples is misleading and cashing in on the fact that it's Valve and it's Half Life. Hell the group even says they're avoiding negative and disrespectful actions to attempt to gain Valve's attention. That's a far cry from "OMFG NO DEDICATED SERVERS IW U SO DUMB I H8 U."

Kadayi
15-02-2012, 01:07 PM
It is an economic relationship they have with their customers, nothing more.

Go back a few pages to the analogy I make regarding the delivery of the Pizza. This idea that a company (any company) don't have an obligation to notify consumers over a delay (as well provide a revised ETA) over a product (especially one people have already financially bought 2/3rd into already) is a laughable fallacy. Please get up off you're knees and wipe that Valve cum off your face.

Rossignol
15-02-2012, 01:15 PM
Ok, that's enough.