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Heliocentric
15-02-2012, 10:19 PM
I know Dominbions 3 got some love here but i bounced right off it, it was too wide open, i really ought to go back. But reading this made the developers latest effort very interesting, because its simple, but crazy too.


Hands of Glory. These are the severed left hands of executed murderers. Necromancers gather them from any settlement large enough to have murders. Cities are great for this. Peaceful hamlets not so much. [...] There is one teensy little catch to that last step about repeating as needed. Every time a necromancer uses his raise dead ability, he accrues a few points of insanity. [...] Thatís the thrust of this factionís mid-game. So you save up Hands of Glory as needed, constantly fighting the tension between summoning cool units and saving up to pass over to vampire-hood or lich-ness.
http://www.quartertothree.com/fp/2012/02/13/conquest-of-elysium-3-give-the-necromancers-a-hand/

The dwarf queen canít go anywhere, presumably because sheís so big and fat. Going by the graphics, sheís twice as tall and four times as heavy as a regular dwarf. Every turn, she lays an egg that hatches a dwarf worker. At least thatís how I imagine it happens.
http://www.quartertothree.com/fp/2012/02/14/conquest-of-elysium-3-sex-dwarves-and-diamonds/

vinraith
15-02-2012, 10:27 PM
This one looks really intriguing, yeah. I've been following Tom's write-ups, and am hoping for some 3MA coverage as well.

Right now it's only availabe on Desura, though, which has me holding off. I hear they're talking to Gamersgate, and if that happens I'll definitely be picking it up.

I really ought to get Dominions 3 as well...

Gnarf
18-02-2012, 03:49 PM
Just pre-ordered. I heard about the game being developed sometime last year, but there wasn't a lot of info at the time and I haven't been paying attention to it. Checked things out again today and now there's a ton of videos and articles and things to check out and the game is out in like two days. Yay.

I don't think I mind Desura or anything. I was expecting the usual deal of "this game is made by a couple of guys in Sweden and the only way to get a copy of it to Norway is to send it in like a box from like America". I like this better. (Actually, it looks like you can even buy Dominions 3 downloads these days. Neat.)

Mr_Hands
01-03-2012, 03:14 PM
So there was some pre-release chatter about this game. Anyone dive in and try to grok some of its flavour?

I'm about a half-hour deep into an "easy" game as the Demonologists. Most of my previous runs have been abortive, failed attempts to, well, learn the game. I have to say, I enjoy finding random loot and having persistent stats for all my units. Also, the sheer madness of every faction is something to behold.

Should be noted that it was the Quarter to Three write-ups that really sold me on the game. Yeah, she's not a looker, but I haven't had this much fun with a fantasy turn-based strategy-type game since HoMM III.

NathanH
01-03-2012, 03:25 PM
I quite like it. It's relaxing and fun and doesn't require a lot of concentration or time investment. It's not for when I'm in a mood for some Serious Gaming but I find myself in such a mood less and less these days. Sometimes you die immediately and sometimes you win immediately, but that's not really a problem. The troll is fun, he just stomps over everything.

Giaddon
01-03-2012, 03:45 PM
I've been playing this since release. It's fantastic. One thing to note is that damage rolls are open, meaning rolling the highest amount triggers a re-roll. This means, for example, that a unit that deals 1-2 damage deals an average damage of 3.

Really enjoying this game.

gp1628
03-03-2012, 02:13 PM
The progress page show a lot of free upgrades coming already in the next patch http://jaffa.illwinter.com/coe3/coe3progress.html including a lot of performance tweaks. Like I really need THIS game to play FASTER. Please no.

vinraith
03-03-2012, 02:43 PM
The esteemed chaps at 3MA finally got around to this one:

http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2012/03/01/3753/

R-F
04-03-2012, 02:20 PM
Why does this guy sell all of his games at such ridiculous prices?

gp1628
04-03-2012, 03:25 PM
Do you have a hobby? This guy (actually 2 guys) do this as a hobby. Their prices are reasonable (if not more) for the amount of gaming we get from it. Arguments to change it are usually based on the gamers personal interest, or some concept of making more money. Neither of which seem to apply all that much.

grasskit
04-03-2012, 04:15 PM
i really want a demo first though

gp1628
04-03-2012, 04:52 PM
Yeah its mostly selling to people who have played Illwinter games before. Conquest of Elysium 2 (which is free) and Dominions 3 (which is $55). Or people who watched the videos

R-F
04-03-2012, 05:12 PM
Do you have a hobby? This guy (actually 2 guys) do this as a hobby. Their prices are reasonable (if not more) for the amount of gaming we get from it. Arguments to change it are usually based on the gamers personal interest, or some concept of making more money. Neither of which seem to apply all that much.

Look at it this way.

If this game was £5, I'd buy it regardless, doubly so if it was on Steam.

Due to the fact he's selling it at the price of two to three day's worth of food? Yeeeeah, no.

It doesn't matter if he's doing it for a hobby (surely he'd do it for free?), he's still selling it at a price which is:-
1. Silly, more so due to the fact it's supposedly a hobby.
2. Bad for business.
3. Double silly.

gp1628
04-03-2012, 05:17 PM
Firstly, Steamed turned it down.

The "buy it regardless" crowd does not seem all that desirable. :)

As far as the other, Ive had hobbies that people have said was good enough that I should do it full time. And suggestions of charging less (no Im not about to do it for free) because if I charged less I would get more business, or that I should hire people, or that I should make changes to please the masses. Personally, I totally understand Illwinters stance. Especially since they dont just "sell it and dump it". They actually support it. But hey, you do it they want you want.

R-F
04-03-2012, 05:28 PM
Firstly, Steamed turned it down.

Pfft, why?


The "buy it regardless" crowd does not seem all that desirable. :)

Except, of course, if you're a business focused on making money, in which case this crowd will make up a massive revenue stream.


As far as the other, Ive had hobbies that people have said was good enough that I should do it full time. And suggestions of charging less (no Im not about to do it for free) because if I charged less I would get more business, or that I should hire people, or that I should make changes to please the masses. Personally, I totally understand Illwinters stance. Especially since they dont just "sell it and dump it". They actually support it. But hey, you do it they want you want.

lol.

Of course, who cares about good business?

gp1628
04-03-2012, 05:40 PM
Of course. Turning a hobby too much into a business can ruin a good hobby.
They arent interested in loads of money. They both have jobs and family. This is a hobby.
And by the way, cheaper for massive money doesnt always pan out. Especially for items that require support. I know, Ive been there. (I know its not logical)

gp1628
27-03-2012, 03:30 PM
A DEMO version of Illwinters new game, Conquest of Elysium 3, is now available at Desura.com

http://www.desura.com/games/conquest-of-elysium-3

Purchase price for the full game is $30

gp1628
16-05-2012, 12:28 AM
Now on sale for 35% of for the next week at Desura.com

gp1628
26-10-2012, 06:18 PM
OK how about this? Its now available on Steam. Both steam and gamers gate are carrying it on sale for $9 if you act quick.

On and of the many patches, the latest one added another nation.

gundato
26-10-2012, 07:28 PM
Shazam. I'll be buying that when I get home.

I'm another guy who wanted to try Dominions 3, but the mixture of an obscene price point and no DD-service backing it turned me off. Different genre, but it still intrigues me.

gp1628
30-10-2012, 03:27 PM
Shazam. I'll be buying that when I get home.

I'm another guy who wanted to try Dominions 3, but the mixture of an obscene price point and no DD-service backing it turned me off. Different genre, but it still intrigues me.

Both of those have changed a bit.
Dom3 now has DD. And is presently on sale for $30. And if you are student or american military you can get 10% off of that.

People have played it for years. It takes such time to even try out all of the unique nations that its worth the price.

gundato
30-10-2012, 07:36 PM
Both of those have changed a bit.
Dom3 now has DD. And is presently on sale for $30. And if you are student or american military you can get 10% off of that.

People have played it for years. It takes such time to even try out all of the unique nations that its worth the price.
I only see it through the "official" Shrapnel Games store. And, if memory (and a quick glance), serves, they are the "charge you for extended download service" kind of people.

And sorry, but 30 bucks for a game that is over 6 years old is still "obscene" in my eyes. Not as bad as 70 for a game that was 5 years old, but still not something I am keen on.

NathanH
30-10-2012, 07:51 PM
And sorry, but 30 bucks for a game that is over 6 years old is still "obscene" in my eyes. Not as bad as 70 for a game that was 5 years old, but still not something I am keen on.

If you rewrite it as "30 bucks for a game that has yet to be surpassed" then it becomes less obscene. This principle that as games get older they necessarily need to become very cheap is silly.

gundato
30-10-2012, 08:03 PM
If you rewrite it as "30 bucks for a game that has yet to be surpassed" then it becomes less obscene. This principle that as games get older they necessarily need to become very cheap is silly.
Which is exactly why black ops is still 40 (I am actually amazed modern warfare 2 is down to 20...).

And when I can find just about every turn-based tactical squad-level strategy game (the JAs, XCOMs, and Silent Storm :p) for, at most, 10 bucks each, my sympathy drops. Especially when the guy was trying to sell it for 60-70 bucks a year or so ago...

Don't get me wrong, the game looks amazing and I still want it. But it is indicative of all the bad things that held indie gaming down for so long: Anything that wasn't garbage (or, at the very least, one step away from vaporware) was being sold at obscene prices that never went down (due to no competition). Whereas, once the indie devs started to acknowledge they had lower development costs than the major studios, indie gaming became so popular that it seriously threatens the major studios.

Every game has its equilibrium price point. I hope that 30 bucks from a shady DD service is the equilibrium for Dom3. But it isn't the price I'll pay for it at. And that makes me sad, but not 30 dollars sad.

gp1628
30-10-2012, 09:11 PM
There are other sources. You can get it from the fun Dom3minions.com store at Amazon.com
But Im afraid it is still at $50 there. You can also get other "live forever on your machine" games there (the prices of which make Dom3 look cheap) :)

Sorry you are sad but since Dom3 isnt marketplace driven it is almost random in its chances for price change. Its more likely to go like Illwinters Conquest of Elysium series. CoE3 came out, and CoE2 became a free download. Maybe if Illwinter ever becomes interested in doing a Dom4 then you can get Dom3.

NathanH
30-10-2012, 10:39 PM
And when I can find just about every turn-based tactical squad-level strategy game (the JAs, XCOMs, and Silent Storm :p) for, at most, 10 bucks each, my sympathy drops. Especially when the guy was trying to sell it for 60-70 bucks a year or so ago..

I have no idea why you're referring to the standard price for an entirely different type of game...

If you like Dominions 3, then there's no real competitor so $30 is far from an obscene price.

gundato
30-10-2012, 10:45 PM
I have no idea why you're referring to the standard price for an entirely different type of game...

If you like Dominions 3, then there's no real competitor so $30 is far from an obscene price.
Your argument was essentially "Its the best there is at what it does, and what it does is very expensive". I pointed out that pretty much every other genre's "best" games tend to follow normal pricing trends.

Also, it is kind of funny that the dev finally lowered the price over the past year or so. Make sense since Warlock came out, and Fallen Enchantress does what Elemental tried to do a few years back. Not exactly the same genre, but close enough to add competition.

I dunno. I just feel like this is another case of people making excuses for indie devs. If this were Activision, people would be up in arms. But since it is an indie dev, it is okay to charge 70 bucks for a 5 year old game and 30 for a 6.


Sidenote: Anyone know Amazon's re-download policy? I have never used them for anything other than serials (for Steam, Origin, or the PSN)?

NathanH
30-10-2012, 10:55 PM
My point is that the game is worth much more than $30 if you like it. A sensible person doesn't worry too much about whether games fit standard pricing policies. A sensible person buys games that are worth their price or worth more than their price. I agree that if you have only $30 and no strategy games then there are better choices. But there aren't actually that many strategy games that offer better value for money than Dominions 3 in my opinion. It's the best game of its type, so you should be prepared to pay $30 if you like its type.

Basically, old games, even ones that are still the best of their type, get discounted heavily because they're trying to catch the attention of a lot of people who value games very superficially, and would only buy old games if they're discounted heavily. But you're just one person, so you don't have to worry about those superficial people. If the video gaming world was filled with pinnacles of human evolution, then old games wouldn't be so heavily discounted.

Heliocentric
30-10-2012, 11:29 PM
My point is that the game is worth much more than $30 if you like it. A sensible person doesn't worry too much about whether games fit standard pricing policies. A sensible person buys games that are worth their price or worth more than their price.

I find it sensible to be patient, its a rare thing that a discount or a bundle doesn't fill up my roster for a pittance. I can even afford to be fussy and only play (imo) great games. So if some great games fall by the way side because their developers decide their product is "premium" so be it.

gundato
30-10-2012, 11:56 PM
My point is that the game is worth much more than $30 if you like it. A sensible person doesn't worry too much about whether games fit standard pricing policies. A sensible person buys games that are worth their price or worth more than their price. I agree that if you have only $30 and no strategy games then there are better choices. But there aren't actually that many strategy games that offer better value for money than Dominions 3 in my opinion. It's the best game of its type, so you should be prepared to pay $30 if you like its type.

Basically, old games, even ones that are still the best of their type, get discounted heavily because they're trying to catch the attention of a lot of people who value games very superficially, and would only buy old games if they're discounted heavily. But you're just one person, so you don't have to worry about those superficial people. If the video gaming world was filled with pinnacles of human evolution, then old games wouldn't be so heavily discounted.

Actually, if a game doesn't follow "standard pricing policies" to this degree (still full price after 5 years, price of a new discount game after 6) it DOES raise red flags.

For years (probably up to the release of Starcraft 2), Starcraft was sold in the battlechest for 30 bucks or so. Same with Diablo 2 (that might have gone down with Diablo 3). Those raise a flag, but I can safely say "They are so beloved that Blizzard can gouge people".

Call of Duty games tend to stay at full price, or close to it, until the next one is released. To me, that raises a flag. Further study shows that it is mostly because Activision like to gouge their customers and know that most people are either gonna buy it new or not at all. That tells me "If I at all care about MP, buy it new. Otherwise, wait for a GOOD Steam sale"

Dom3 was 60-70 bucks (can someone with a better memory confirm which number I should keep citing? :p) 5 years after release, and is now 30 dollars 6 years after release. What does that tell me? That tells me that the developers perceived a monopoly on their genre up until a year or so ago and didn't see any reason to lower prices. The sudden drop (but still high price) tells me that they now see competition, but are hoping that it fails. But the reasonable pricing on CoE (possibly a bit too low, not sure how old it is) shows me that the devs may have "seen the light" and realize they need to compete, which means that Dom4 (if it is ever made) will probably follow reasonable price trends.

And maybe it does contain 70 dollars worth of quality. That doesn't mean it should necessarily be 70 dollars after 5 years (or 30 after 7). I loved Dark Souls. I bought it new for my PS3, then I bought it for about 30 bucks after coupon for the PC. I feel every single penny was well spent and would spend it again. Hell, if I didn't already own Demon Souls and know it was a much more frustrating game, I would be willing to pay 50 bucks for that. But before I threw the cash down, I would stop and think: "This game came out a few years back and already has a sequel. Should I be paying full price for this?" and I would probably wait for a sale. Its the same reason why I never bought the CD for Tomba 1, since by the time I knew how good it would be (having already played and loved Tomba 2) it was going for 60 or 70 bucks a pop. And that worked out well since it came to the PSN.

The REALLY funny thing: there have been plenty of times I was tempted to buy Dom3 for the full 70 bucks. But every time I checked, they had crap DD services. If anything, this drop to 30 basically guaranteed I am not paying more than 20 bucks for just about anything the guy makes. Why? Because it shows me that the devs don't care about their fans and just want to screw everyone for every penny they can get. I can stick with the big publishers and Paradox for that :p. The former gives me shinier graphics, the latter at last spreads the screwing out over multiple DLCs and expansions.

And please correct me because I hope I am wrong, but... are you actually advocating HIGHER video game prices in that last paragraph?

NathanH
31-10-2012, 12:15 AM
You could have saved yourself a lot of time by writing "I am a strange person who, when determining whether to pay money in exchange for a product, consider lots of things other than whether the product is worth the money I'm paying for it", you know.


And please correct me because I hope I am wrong, but... are you actually advocating HIGHER video game prices in that last paragraph?

I'm not really advocating anything, because the gaming demographic is not dominated by pinnacles of human evolution, so game prices are going to reflect that. I am simply saying that if it was, then old games would generally cost more, and new games would generally cost less.

I think it's fair for games of quality not to drop in price even after some years. Of course it's fair to say that you're not prepared to pay a high price for an old game, but to say that a high price for an old game is obscene is, to me, a little obscene.

NathanH
31-10-2012, 12:19 AM
I find it sensible to be patient, its a rare thing that a discount or a bundle doesn't fill up my roster for a pittance. I can even afford to be fussy and only play (imo) great games. So if some great games fall by the way side because their developers decide their product is "premium" so be it.

Well yes, but here we're talking about a very particular game where patience doesn't work very well and that is something quite special. If you like the type of game Dominion 3 is, then I think you'd be better off cutting back on, say, your next 5 pittance purchases and buy Dominions 3 instead.

gundato
31-10-2012, 01:11 AM
You could have saved yourself a lot of time by writing "I am a strange person who, when determining whether to pay money in exchange for a product, consider lots of things other than whether the product is worth the money I'm paying for it", you know.
Or you could have read what I posted and understood that I think a bit more than "Do these previews sound like they are worth X dollars".




I'm not really advocating anything, because the gaming demographic is not dominated by pinnacles of human evolution, so game prices are going to reflect that. I am simply saying that if it was, then old games would generally cost more, and new games would generally cost less.

I think it's fair for games of quality not to drop in price even after some years. Of course it's fair to say that you're not prepared to pay a high price for an old game, but to say that a high price for an old game is obscene is, to me, a little obscene.
Heads up, I suggest not talking about "evolution" and the like. Makes you sound like one of those morons who advocate eugenics as an excuse for social awkwardness. And nobody wants to be lumped in with them :p

I read a lot of books. Both the kinds with lots of pictures (comic) and the kind with lots of words ("normal").
The Battletech tie-in novels are the perfect example. Yes, some of them were garbage, but most were fun reads and they are still the pinnacle of "mech on mech" action in book form (although, Abnett's 40k books about Titans do a pretty good job). Up until a few years ago, they were out of print. A quick amazon search shows the price most of them were going for http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=blood+of+kerensky&x=0&y=0
But fortunately, they went into (digital) print a few years back and they were priced (by the publisher) at around 3-4 USD a book.

Now, to me, that says a lot. Maybe I am "unevolved", but I don't see why I should be paying 70 dollars for a random book by Stackpole. I for one think they should have gone for a paperback price point (7 bucks, preferably discounted to 5 since it was an ebook), but the current IP holders decided to go cheap because they care about their fans/want to gouge us in other aspects. And I respect that, and it made me buy more than just Stackpole's books (as a kid, I only ever had the Blood of Kerensky trilogy so I never got to find out if Kai Allard-Liao had a remotely happy ending. Spoilers: He probably had one of the happier endings for nobility in that universe). But if they had tried to sell those at the hardcover price point (around 15-25 bucks, depending on what publisher) I would have told them to go to hell and looked for alternatives (I hear there is an interesting series of books about super-massive tanks that sort of reads like mech-on-mech action). Why? Because the books are over 10 years old and being sold in a purely digital format.

Most people will accept that Duke3d and DOOM were a LOT of fun. Does that mean that whoever owns the rights to Duke (Gearbox?) and iD (Bethesda owns them, right?) should sell 15 and 19 year old games at an 80 dollar price point? I mean, they are probably the pinnacle of their respective kinds of FPS and CLEARLY "better" than all current games, so they should be more expensive, right? I mean, paying for quality, right? :p

General rule of thumb: Imagine that Apple/MS/Activision/EA/George Lucas is the one doing something. If you suddenly feel the urge to bitch about it, either you are a petty douche or you are defending a bad practice. Either way, start bitching :p

Heliocentric
31-10-2012, 01:51 AM
Well yes, but here we're talking about a very particular game where patience doesn't work very well and that is something quite special. If you like the type of game Dominion 3 is, then I think you'd be better off cutting back on, say, your next 5 pittance purchases and buy Dominions 3 instead.
Its a sound argument but Solium Infernum has my soul atm.

lasikbear
31-10-2012, 02:03 AM
I am pretty certain Dom3's price is set by Shrapnel (the publisher) and not Illwinter. Shrapnel keeps it in line with all of their other products because they view themselves as a niche developer and mostly publish hardcore wargames. Illwinter is just two dudes who like mythology and made a game about it, and I believe they opted out of dealing with most of the buisness side.

Edit: also y'all should stop complaining and buy the damn thing so we have more RPS people to play with =D

vinraith
31-10-2012, 03:36 AM
Has Dom 3 continued to see updates? How's the AI and the single player experience these days? I doubt I'd ever play it MP, and its reputation as a primarily MP title (coupled with the price) have kept me at bay. I'm happy to support an indie developer with a full price purchase, so long as it's a game I'll actually enjoy playing solo.

NathanH
31-10-2012, 10:21 AM
Or you could have read what I posted and understood that I think a bit more than "Do these previews sound like they are worth X dollars".

I'm sorry, but I read through all of your extremely tedious posts and, once I'd filtered out the 95% that had nothing to do with the matter at hand, none of it had anything to do with whether a product was worth X dollars, they all had to do with whether it conformed to what you considered standard pricing policies, and if it didn't it was labelled obscene. I suggest you try to defend this position or retract it instead of trying to deflect.


Heads up, I suggest not talking about "evolution" and the like. Makes you sound like one of those morons who advocate eugenics as an excuse for social awkwardness. And nobody wants to be lumped in with them :p

I read a lot of books. Both the kinds with lots of pictures (comic) and the kind with lots of words ("normal").
The Battletech tie-in novels are the perfect example. Yes, some of them were garbage, but most were fun reads and they are still the pinnacle of "mech on mech" action in book form (although, Abnett's 40k books about Titans do a pretty good job). Up until a few years ago, they were out of print. A quick amazon search shows the price most of them were going for http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=blood+of+kerensky&x=0&y=0
But fortunately, they went into (digital) print a few years back and they were priced (by the publisher) at around 3-4 USD a book.

Now, to me, that says a lot. Maybe I am "unevolved", but I don't see why I should be paying 70 dollars for a random book by Stackpole. I for one think they should have gone for a paperback price point (7 bucks, preferably discounted to 5 since it was an ebook), but the current IP holders decided to go cheap because they care about their fans/want to gouge us in other aspects. And I respect that, and it made me buy more than just Stackpole's books (as a kid, I only ever had the Blood of Kerensky trilogy so I never got to find out if Kai Allard-Liao had a remotely happy ending. Spoilers: He probably had one of the happier endings for nobility in that universe). But if they had tried to sell those at the hardcover price point (around 15-25 bucks, depending on what publisher) I would have told them to go to hell and looked for alternatives (I hear there is an interesting series of books about super-massive tanks that sort of reads like mech-on-mech action). Why? Because the books are over 10 years old and being sold in a purely digital format.

[snip]

General rule of thumb: Imagine that Apple/MS/Activision/EA/George Lucas is the one doing something. If you suddenly feel the urge to bitch about it, either you are a petty douche or you are defending a bad practice. Either way, start bitching :p

None of this has anything to do with the matter at hand. Please stick to the point instead of trying to deflect the argument into something you think you have a chance against. Your typical method is not going to work on me, so don't waste your time eroding your keyboard for nothing.


Most people will accept that Duke3d and DOOM were a LOT of fun. Does that mean that whoever owns the rights to Duke (Gearbox?) and iD (Bethesda owns them, right?) should sell 15 and 19 year old games at an 80 dollar price point? I mean, they are probably the pinnacle of their respective kinds of FPS and CLEARLY "better" than all current games, so they should be more expensive, right? I mean, paying for quality, right? :p

I don't claim they "should" be a particular price or another. That's what you are doing, not me. They "should" be whatever price the publisher believes will optimize their revenue. When I am considering whether to purchase a product, I don't worry about what price they "should" be, just whether the price demanded is worth the product offered. In that calculation, age of the game should have no importance. If you know nothing about the game, then age of the game informs you about certain things like graphics and interface, but there is a demo of Dominions 3 to inform you about those, so the age can be ignored from our calculations.

gundato
31-10-2012, 01:15 PM
I'm sorry, but I read through all of your extremely tedious posts and, once I'd filtered out the 95% that had nothing to do with the matter at hand, none of it had anything to do with whether a product was worth X dollars, they all had to do with whether it conformed to what you considered standard pricing policies, and if it didn't it was labelled obscene. I suggest you try to defend this position or retract it instead of trying to deflect.



None of this has anything to do with the matter at hand. Please stick to the point instead of trying to deflect the argument into something you think you have a chance against. Your typical method is not going to work on me, so don't waste your time eroding your keyboard for nothing.



I don't claim they "should" be a particular price or another. That's what you are doing, not me. They "should" be whatever price the publisher believes will optimize their revenue. When I am considering whether to purchase a product, I don't worry about what price they "should" be, just whether the price demanded is worth the product offered. In that calculation, age of the game should have no importance. If you know nothing about the game, then age of the game informs you about certain things like graphics and interface, but there is a demo of Dominions 3 to inform you about those, so the age can be ignored from our calculations.

Got it, if it isn't an imaginary made up eugenics-supported argument that favors your favorite game, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand :p

And there are demos of Duke3D (probably :p). DOOM is famous for having (almost) the entire first episode be a demo. I still don't think anyone would defend id/bethesda for selling those at high price points.

All the CoD games have demos. People bitch that those still cost so much.

What makes Dom3 so special? Aside from the fact that you like this money-grubbing dick but don't like the other money-grubbing dicks? :p

Squiz
31-10-2012, 02:09 PM
Sorry to interrupt here, but did I read that correctly: Dominions 3 is available for 30$ somewhere? And as a DD? Would someone be so nice as to provide a link? I would love to try that game but was always turned off by the non-digital-distribution (I am located in Europe) and the possibly high corresponding shipping costs.

gundato
31-10-2012, 02:23 PM
Sorry to interrupt here, but did I read that correctly: Dominions 3 is available for 30$ somewhere? And as a DD? Would someone be so nice as to provide a link? I would love to try that game but was always turned off by the non-digital-distribution (I am located in Europe) and the possibly high corresponding shipping costs.
The shrapnel games store has it for 30. No, I won't link to it because I am pretty sure they sell "extended download" services that I refuse to support.

Allegedly it is available at Amazon's DD too, but all I can find is the CD for 50 bucks http://www.amazon.com/Dominions-3-Mac/dp/B000K0OSFS which isn't great, but is more reasonable than it used to be.

lasikbear
31-10-2012, 02:27 PM
Sorry to interrupt here, but did I read that correctly: Dominions 3 is available for 30$ somewhere? And as a DD? Would someone be so nice as to provide a link? I would love to try that game but was always turned off by the non-digital-distribution (I am located in Europe) and the possibly high corresponding shipping costs.

https://www.gamersfront.com/store/dominions-3-the-awakening.html

Vinraith: its still updated on occassion, and there is a healthy mod community. The mods are mostly balance related, but many of them also add content.

As for single-player, its possible and there are some mods out there that try to make the AI avoid some of the worse decisions it tends to make, but at least in my experience its still not that great. There are so many things the AI just won't do. Its still playable, and you can have some fights between giant armies, but the AI tends to not deal with mid and late game strategies well, as it really just likes to make large armies of dudes and send them to their death. I am not be the best person to answer that question though, as I really don't do much in single player besides test.

Squiz
31-10-2012, 02:32 PM
Thanks to both of you, gundato and lasikbear. The extended download service makes it a dealbreaker for me, sadly. Apparently you've only got 10 days to download your game, with the service it is 2 years. I'll see what the demo can offer and then maybe have a closer look at Amazon's download policy.

NathanH
31-10-2012, 03:47 PM
Got it, if it isn't an imaginary made up eugenics-supported argument that favors your favorite game, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand :p

And there are demos of Duke3D (probably :p). DOOM is famous for having (almost) the entire first episode be a demo. I still don't think anyone would defend id/bethesda for selling those at high price points.

All the CoD games have demos. People bitch that those still cost so much.

What makes Dom3 so special? Aside from the fact that you like this money-grubbing dick but don't like the other money-grubbing dicks? :p

Another post filled with things entirely irrelevant to the matter at hand. Perhaps you haven't noticed yet, but I am not going to fall for your tiresome deflection tactics. Stick to the matter at hand or pipe down.

gundato
31-10-2012, 03:55 PM
Thanks to both of you, gundato and lasikbear. The extended download service makes it a dealbreaker for me, sadly. Apparently you've only got 10 days to download your game, with the service it is 2 years. I'll see what the demo can offer and then maybe have a closer look at Amazon's download policy.

If you can find the Amazon download link, post it here. I can't find it, and while I still refuse to give them more than 20 bucks a game (considering the crap they pull), I might get lucky and it will go on sale (or I'll have a discount code).


Another post filled with things entirely irrelevant to the matter at hand. Perhaps you haven't noticed yet, but I am not going to fall for your tiresome deflection tactics. Stick to the matter at hand or pipe down.

Translation: Na na na na, I'm not listening. I can't hear you. Na na na na, I am right, you are wrong, na na na na, let's breed a master race of gamers who only like what I like!!!

But I just will leave you with this: Seriously, imagine that this were Blizzard or iD or the remnants of Infinity Ward doing this kind of crap: I doubt you would be defending them.

NathanH
31-10-2012, 03:58 PM
Translation: Na na na na, I'm not listening. I can't hear you. Na na na na, I am right, you are wrong, na na na na, let's breed a master race of gamers who only like what I like!!!

But I just will leave you with this: Seriously, imagine that this were Blizzard or iD or the remnants of Infinity Ward doing this kind of crap: I doubt you would be defending them.

You really do have no shame, do you? Even when you've been repeatedly called out on your attempts to deflect and start new arguments that you think you can win when you find yourself in an argument you think you're going to lose, you keep on doing it. Incredible!

gundato
31-10-2012, 05:05 PM
You really do have no shame, do you? Even when you've been repeatedly called out on your attempts to deflect and start new arguments that you think you can win when you find yourself in an argument you think you're going to lose, you keep on doing it. Incredible!
Yes, because questioning the rationale of "It is better, so it should cost more regardless of how old it is" has nothing to do with questioning why other fields (and other people IN the field) don't do it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

But please, keep just screaming and whatever. I had a feeling we wouldn't get a decent discussion out of it, and it looks like that holds true. Although, this has gotten me to thinking on the topic in general. But I won't dare to discuss anything in here that might offend your highly evolved mind :P

gp1628
31-10-2012, 10:18 PM
Amazon: http://astore.amazon.com/dom3-20
Shrapnel: http://www.gamersfront.com/store/dominions-3-the-awakening.html
and 10% off for Scholars or Soldiers: http://www.gamersfront.com/store/shrapnels_savings_for_scholars_and_soldiers.html

Extended sounds just like giving in to the public demand. It means nothing there. Ive seen people write to customer support of both Shrapnel and Illwinter to get downloads years later as long as they have a serial or something. Shrapnel is a tiny few-people company. They just dont leave the links forever available. Long enough to download to multiple machines is all you need.

The PRICE wont change because it is NOT market driven. They dont care what other games are selling for. I know lots of indie programmers and publishers. As far as I can see the pricing is based on "Im still having fun making it", then "Im losing interest but I might as well leave it offered", and then finally "I dont care". CoE3 is priced $30 by the developers, and $9 by Steam. The previous no longer supported or upgraded version CoE2 is now a free download on Shrapnel. Thats how it goes. Throwing the tactics of corporate companies at them just gets a laugh.

gundato
31-10-2012, 10:28 PM
Ah, so Amazon IS only the CD version. Probably smarter to get considering how much Shrapnel is trying to screw people on the DD.

Also: Who the hell was demanding to pay extra to download a game without going through customer support or torrents? Someone should beat the crap out of them :p

And GP: Nobody is disagreeing that they can set it to whatever they want to. The problem is, like I said, that that mentality is what almost "killed" indie gaming. We basically had two kinds of indie games: The incredibly expensive ones (that may or may not have had good support) and the vaporware/abandoned ones. Yes, there were a few exceptions, but they all basically said "We aren't market driven, so screw you guys"

And that was HORRIBLE. These days, indie games (the quality of which is generally MUCH higher) compete with publisher-backed games and follow the same price charts (if not lower). And EVERYONE is benefiting The devs make a lot more money due to volume. The consumers are much happier because they can try a wide variety of games. And even the publisher-backed devs are making more small side projects that get started at bargain (30 buck) price points.

That is basically my big complaint here. The devs are saying "Screw you guys, we want more money" and are clinging to the past. Again, if this were MS doing crap like this we would ALL be up in arms.

Maybe the game is worth 70 bucks (honestly, it looks like it is :p). But there is no reason that it should still BE 70 bucks after 5 years (and probably not 30 after 6).

Again. Imagine if whoever owns D&D these days decided "You know what? Screw everyone. We own the D&D license, people like D&D video games. Let's resell IWD and BG and NWN and the Gold Box Games for 80 bucks a pop. Nobody else can make a D&D game. And if they try, we'll sue their asses". Then, all of a sudden, the only legal way to play NWN would either be to already own a copy or to pay D&D-owner peoples 80 dollars. Pretty sure people would be feeding child porn to the gods of 4chan to sic Anonymous on them :p
But an indie dev does it, and suddenly it is okay?

Ah well. Here is hoping the sales of CoE3 are enough to make him realize that a lower price point (especially after 7 years...) is a good thing in that it makes a LOT more sales. Because most of the people who were gonna pay 70 bucks for it already did years ago (the drop to 50/30 strongly suggests it).

JiminyJickers
31-10-2012, 11:03 PM
Has Dom 3 continued to see updates? How's the AI and the single player experience these days? I doubt I'd ever play it MP, and its reputation as a primarily MP title (coupled with the price) have kept me at bay. I'm happy to support an indie developer with a full price purchase, so long as it's a game I'll actually enjoy playing solo.

I would also like to know the answers to your questions.

gp1628
01-11-2012, 12:32 AM
That is basically my big complaint here. The devs are saying "Screw you guys, we want more money" and are clinging to the past. Again, if this were MS doing crap like this we would ALL be up in arms.

Maybe the game is worth 70 bucks (honestly, it looks like it is :p). But there is no reason that it should still BE 70 bucks after 5 years (and probably not 30 after 6).

Ah well. Here is hoping the sales of CoE3 are enough to make him realize that a lower price point (especially after 7 years...) is a good thing in that it makes a LOT more sales. Because most of the people who were gonna pay 70 bucks for it already did years ago (the drop to 50/30 strongly suggests it).

You make it so cut & dried. All conspiracy. They arent saying we want more money. If they did then the low cost for more sales would make sense. The cost of Dominions kept the player base the way they liked it. So far, I think the new pricing arrangment is either going to convince them to go back or convince them to do like other devs and simply drop support after the game is released. And so far those prices are sales prices. I wouldnt count on them staying that way.

gundato
01-11-2012, 12:49 AM
You make it so cut & dried. All conspiracy. They arent saying we want more money. If they did then the low cost for more sales would make sense. The cost of Dominions kept the player base the way they liked it. So far, I think the new pricing arrangment is either going to convince them to go back or convince them to do like other devs and simply drop support after the game is released. And so far those prices are sales prices. I wouldnt count on them staying that way.

No. You are assuming intelligent people. I am assuming that the devs are still living in the past when Dom3 first came out. Back when Indie Games cost an arm and a leg because they COULD charge that much. And you notice how most indie devs now launch at a 10-30 dollar price point? There is a reason for that...

And like I said. The game looks amazing and I have wanted it for about 6 years :p. But every time I went to buy it, the price turned me off or the DD service turned me off. And after all this time, the dev is turning me off. Either the developer doesn't care and gave it all to the publisher (at which point, I see no particular reason to give the publisher that much money) or the developer is a set-in-his-ways dick who insists on holding on to the practices that screwed indie gaming for years. Either way, there are other MUCH better games I can play for MUCH lower price points. And those come without having to support an organization that pushes "extended download services".

Hopefully it really IS the "big bad publisher/distributor" who is doing all this and the developer is a really nice guy. Maybe I'll buy Dom4 if he ever makes it. But I don't see myself getting Dom3 any time soon. It sucks, but I have better things I can waste my money on. Like a model rocket engine, superglue, a melon baller, and a dildo.

gp1628
01-11-2012, 12:53 AM
Has Dom 3 continued to see updates? How's the AI and the single player experience these days? I doubt I'd ever play it MP, and its reputation as a primarily MP title (coupled with the price) have kept me at bay. I'm happy to support an indie developer with a full price purchase, so long as it's a game I'll actually enjoy playing solo.

Im sorry this got buried. Thanks JiminyJickers for pointing it out again.

Ive played Dom3 longer than almost anyone (longer than its been released) and personally I play almost entirely Solo. The only MP games I get into anymore are any with some really quirky variation to try.

YES Dom3 has continued to get updates. FREE patches and updates for years. Nations have been added, UI fixes, player requested changes, modding commands, etc. Here is the progress list for Dom3
http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom3/dom3progress.html
The netbook stuff showed up when someone gave Johan a netbook. Ive joked that we should send him an Android phone.

Yes the Dom3 page has slowed down but that overlaps with the CoE3 progress page.
http://jaffa.illwinter.com/coe3/coe3progress.html
Lately Dom3 updates have been CoE3 updates that could be backported. Also the players have begun to port the nice new CoE3 unit sprites into Dom3 updates mods of their own.

As for Solo play.....
check out www.Dom3Minions.com
Its a crappy little site but there are notes there about solo play. It lists some of the maps and mods to iprove AI. And mentions some always-running games you can join that use some of the abilities of the game for boosting AI. Or at least making it surprising again.

gp1628
01-11-2012, 05:40 PM
No. You are assuming intelligent people. I am assuming that the devs are still living in the past when Dom3 first came out. Back when Indie Games cost an arm and a leg because they COULD charge that much. And you notice how most indie devs now launch at a 10-30 dollar price point? There is a reason for that...

The reason for it is that they continually got pestered by the Dom3 crowd that it would not affect things badly.

Seriously, are you so locked into a player vision that you cant see the pros and cons of pricing?
They were continually told that lots of $5 sales would make up for few $50 sales. But what they are getting is lots of $5 players in the forums instead of a few $50 players. And lots of $5 customer support instead of a few $50 customer support. And its not just the numbers. Its the difference between general age, attitudes, and the kinds of requests. If they get blown off of supporting the game then I will not be thrilled with the wonderful sales.

gundato
01-11-2012, 05:50 PM
The reason for it is that they continually got pestered by the Dom3 crowd that it would not affect things badly.

Seriously, are you so locked into a player vision that you cant see the pros and cons of pricing?
They were continually told that lots of $5 sales would make up for few $50 sales. But what they are getting is lots of $5 players in the forums instead of a few $50 players. And lots of $5 customer support instead of a few $50 customer support. And its not just the numbers. Its the difference between general age, attitudes, and the kinds of requests. If they get blown off of supporting the game then I will not be thrilled with the wonderful sales.

Ah, so I am expected to spend 70 dollars for a 5 year old game/30 for a 6 year old game so that I can join an elite crowd? That fee isn't for the game, it is for the prestige of being a member of the community? I think that might actually be WORSE than just calling the dev a money-grubbing dick :p

And don't give me that crap over not being able to support the game with a bunch of 5 dollar customers. That hasn't stopped any of the major indie success stories. Because at the end of the day, you have three kinds of "problems":
Major ones. The ones that affect almost everyone who plays. And that can be fixed just as easily for 50 people as for 5. In fact, more people means more data means faster fix.
Minor ones. Those annoying tiny bugs that screw over one or two people out of every hundred. Again, there shouldn't be a huge number of these and they can be fixed much easier if you have more people experiencing it. And before you say "If we had fewer people, the devs wouldn't have to spend so much time fixing 'minor' bugs", let me stop you because you will be saying that you want to pay more to have a buggier piece of software :p
Suggestions. Complaints/problems that are more about design/features. Yes, a higher volume of those can be overwhelming, but that is why you either ignore them or wait to see which ones bubble to the top.

Also, ArmA has gone through some pretty big super-sales and has followed "normal" pricing patterns. Even after the massive influx of people who got ArmA2 just for Day Z, the official forums (and most communities) are still great. Why? Because those "5 dollar" gamers that you seem to not like tend to bounce off and try other stuff. They say "This isn't my cup of tea, I am gonna play something else" and leave.

NathanH
01-11-2012, 07:00 PM
Maybe the game is worth 70 bucks (honestly, it looks like it is :p).

If it looks like it is worth $70 then you should be prepared to pay $70 if $70 is the lowest price it is available for. If it doesn't look like it is worth $70 then you shouldn't be prepared to pay $70 if $70 is the lowest price it is available for. That's all you should be considering if you're making a rational consumer decision. That's all.

Perhaps you're not making a rational consumer decision, which is fine, well within your rights and everyone does it. But then you don't denounce the price as "obscene" and you state instead that you're not willing to pay it. It's as simple as that.

That games tend to decrease in price as time goes by is a statement of fact, but you seem to be taking it as a moral principle that must always be followed, which is really weird. It isn't a moral principle, it's just something that usually happens, but sometimes it doesn't, and that's totally fine.

gundato
01-11-2012, 07:07 PM
If it looks like it is worth $70 then you should be prepared to pay $70 if $70 is the lowest price it is available for. If it doesn't look like it is worth $70 then you shouldn't be prepared to pay $70 if $70 is the lowest price it is available for. That's all you should be considering if you're making a rational consumer decision. That's all.

Really? So back during the scare about dolphins in tuna, you believe people should have ignored flipper getting ground up (more flavor! :p) and should have SOLELY looked at the price?
If a restaurant chain uses profits to support political agendas you disagree with, you should ignore that and still go there because they have a cheap lunch combo?
Game Development Group X are dicks and are pushing a VERY bad model of DRM. But if the game is cheap and you think you'll have fun, you should just ignore all that?

No, in all those cases you weigh those "cons" against the price. If the chicken is still REALLY cheap, then screw the poor bastards being persecuted. But if the chicken is just "cheap", then principles win out.

Here is the thing nate. When you make a "rational consumer decision", you consider all available facts. You think about what you are getting for your dollar and what your dollar is supporting.
Its the same reason that a lot of people (myself included) still make it a point to shop at the local comic book shop every so often. Yes, the prices are higher than amazon, but you are supporting something. Maybe I get no additional value with my TPB of Volume 2 of Red Robin, but I am supporting people I like who might help me out finding something down the line. Or at least have a nice halloween party. And for one or two dollars more, I am cool with that. Do I always shop there? no. But I make it a point to hit them up regularly.

This game looks fun, and it might even be 70 dollars worth of fun. But then you add in a digital distribution store that push HORRIBLE practices In my mind, that raises the effective cost a bit. Then you question "Wait, this game was out for how many years? And it is still expensive? Either this is the best thing ever, or the dev is a dick" and you look into which of those possibilities it is. And that raises the effective cost even further.

So the game, on its own, might be worth 70 bucks. But the way it is being sold and who is selling it has definitely lowered its value in my eyes to a good solid 20 or less.

NathanH
01-11-2012, 07:13 PM
First of all, don't call me Nate. If you want to use a nickname, use Nath, but you're not my friend so I don't think using a nickname is appropriate.

Second, you've decided that it's a moral principle that old games must be dirt cheap. Please justify this moral principle. "Lots of other people do it" is not justification for a moral principle. "I feel like it" is not justification for a moral principle. You've repeatedly called it obscene, but offered no justification for this beyond "lots of other people do differently". This isn't good enough. Try to justify this. Preferable in at most two paragraphs, without recourse to analogies.

Let us be very clear: few people will lower the price of their game because they think that it is the morally correct thing to do. They usually do it because they reckon that it'll be a good business decision. A few people might do it out of kindness, but doing things out of kindness is still a business strategy isn't it.

vinraith
01-11-2012, 07:29 PM
Im sorry this got buried. Thanks JiminyJickers for pointing it out again.

Ive played Dom3 longer than almost anyone (longer than its been released) and personally I play almost entirely Solo. The only MP games I get into anymore are any with some really quirky variation to try.

YES Dom3 has continued to get updates. FREE patches and updates for years. Nations have been added, UI fixes, player requested changes, modding commands, etc. Here is the progress list for Dom3
http://ulm.illwinter.com/dom3/dom3progress.html
The netbook stuff showed up when someone gave Johan a netbook. Ive joked that we should send him an Android phone.

Yes the Dom3 page has slowed down but that overlaps with the CoE3 progress page.
http://jaffa.illwinter.com/coe3/coe3progress.html
Lately Dom3 updates have been CoE3 updates that could be backported. Also the players have begun to port the nice new CoE3 unit sprites into Dom3 updates mods of their own.

As for Solo play.....
check out www.Dom3Minions.com (http://www.Dom3Minions.com)
Its a crappy little site but there are notes there about solo play. It lists some of the maps and mods to iprove AI. And mentions some always-running games you can join that use some of the abilities of the game for boosting AI. Or at least making it surprising again.

Thanks for the detailed reply. That + the discount = 1 new sale, $30 is a fantastic bargain for a game of this scale and depth.

Edit: Ah shit, did I miss the window? I show it at $55...

NathanH
01-11-2012, 08:58 PM
Btw Gundato, if you are interested in Dominions 3 but aren't sure from the demo whether it's worth the asking price, I can probably mail you my copy of Dominions 2 which I don't need any more, assuming I can find it.

Heliocentric
01-11-2012, 09:21 PM
Thanks for the detailed reply. That + the discount = 1 new sale, $30 is a fantastic bargain for a game of this scale and depth.

Edit: Ah shit, did I miss the window? I show it at $55...

Don't feel bad, your just not a $55 customer.

vinraith
01-11-2012, 09:33 PM
Don't feel bad, your just not a $55 customer.

Not for a game whose reputation, anyway, says it's primarily for multiplayer. For $30 I'd have taken the gamble, though, simply because a game of this substance and depth deserves some support and I've heard some encouraging things re: SP play lately.

$55 is still too much for a gamble of this sort, though, especially when I have a backlog of this scale. It's probably for the best that I missed the sale, honestly.

Nullkigan
01-11-2012, 09:50 PM
Still showing $30 for me on the Gamersfront site.

Squiz
01-11-2012, 10:05 PM
Still showing $30 for me on the Gamersfront site.Yeah, it is still live. Here is the link again:

https://www.gamersfront.com/store/do...awakening.html (https://www.gamersfront.com/store/dominions-3-the-awakening.html)

gundato
02-11-2012, 01:20 AM
First of all, don't call me Nate. If you want to use a nickname, use Nath, but you're not my friend so I don't think using a nickname is appropriate.

Second, you've decided that it's a moral principle that old games must be dirt cheap. Please justify this moral principle. "Lots of other people do it" is not justification for a moral principle. "I feel like it" is not justification for a moral principle. You've repeatedly called it obscene, but offered no justification for this beyond "lots of other people do differently". This isn't good enough. Try to justify this. Preferable in at most two paragraphs, without recourse to analogies.

Let us be very clear: few people will lower the price of their game because they think that it is the morally correct thing to do. They usually do it because they reckon that it'll be a good business decision. A few people might do it out of kindness, but doing things out of kindness is still a business strategy isn't it.

It isn't a matter of "being kind". It is a matter of following market trends. Not doing so raises some serious red flags. Maybe it is for good reasons, maybe it isn't. As I have mentioned, everything points to bad reasons on this front. Pretty much every good in every market tends to go down in price over time. Yes, there are exceptions. No, video games aren't exceptions.

If I saw a mass market paperback selling for 30 bucks, I would say "Jesus god damned christ, that is an obscene price". I would then check it out. If it were one of Asimov's mysterious "Empire" short story collections/novels that may or may not exist I would grab it in a heartbeat and understand why it cost so much money: It was out of print and a collector's item. If it were 50 Shades of Grey I would point and laugh and understand why it costs so much money: The sales person is a dick :p
This game is being sold digitally by the dev/publisher, so it isn't out of print :p

Same thing here. 70 bucks after 5 years is definitely "obscene". 30 bucks after 5 years is also really messed up and the only other games I know to pull that are the Starcraft and Diablo and Warcraft battlechests, and at least those tend to go for 10-15 bucks per game (you just have to buy as a bundle). And, of course, Blizzard are dicks but they can get away with it because of demand (are they still 30 bucks now that the sequels are out?).


Btw Gundato, if you are interested in Dominions 3 but aren't sure from the demo whether it's worth the asking price, I can probably mail you my copy of Dominions 2 which I don't need any more, assuming I can find it.

Aww, and you said we weren't friends :p

No thanks though. I have enough on my plate that I can wait for the inevitable super sale that will make me decide I care more about new shinies than I do about not supporting an asshat. Because I am pretty sure CoE, a game with a steam store description written, as the forums so eloquently put it, "by a retarded aspergers freak", is probably selling pretty well all points considered. And that is going to hopefully make the devs realize: There is a reason why people like those lower prices.

Seriously though, thanks for offering.

gp1628
02-11-2012, 01:25 AM
Ah, so I am expected to spend 70 dollars for a 5 year old game/30 for a 6 year old game so that I can join an elite crowd?
Oh god no! No one expects you to do that, and even if you did it would not make you one of the elite crowd. I suspect you would be you in any case. Heck even within this small conversation the differences between the "I bought it at the full price" crowd and the "Im waiting for a bin sale" crowd are visible. Im just saying that they are happy with one and not eager to be flooded by the other just for more bucks in their pocket. They arent going to change so you can join.


And don't give me that crap over not being able to support the game with a bunch of 5 dollar customers. That hasn't stopped any of the major indie success stories.
By hiring more people to handle the emails and phone calls. Which they can do with the more money, in order to get even more money. WOW why didnt they think of that? Do you know what an Indie is? Is it just someone who hasnt managed to get hooked up to a corporation yet?

Shrapnel is like 4 people. Illwinter is TWO people. A programmer and a professor. They do it for fun. When it stops being fun, they stop that one and move to the next. They all have day jobs. Ive seen many experts over the years talk to them about how to do things the "right way" and Ive always seen more results from please and thankyou from both companies.

Independent means independent. They do things their way and seem happy with what they got. Im sorry if you dont like it but that doesnt make it wrong.

gundato
02-11-2012, 01:43 AM
Oh god no! No one expects you to do that, and even if you did it would not make you one of the elite crowd. I suspect you would be you in any case. Heck even within this small conversation the differences between the "I bought it at the full price" crowd and the "Im waiting for a bin sale" crowd are visible. Im just saying that they are happy with one and not eager to be flooded by the other just for more bucks in their pocket. They arent going to change so you can join.


By hiring more people to handle the emails and phone calls. Which they can do with the more money, in order to get even more money. WOW why didnt they think of that? Do you know what an Indie is? Is it just someone who hasnt managed to get hooked up to a corporation yet?

Shrapnel is like 4 people. Illwinter is TWO people. A programmer and a professor. They do it for fun. When it stops being fun, they stop that one and move to the next. They all have day jobs. Ive seen many experts over the years talk to them about how to do things the "right way" and Ive always seen more results from please and thankyou from both companies.

Independent means independent. They do things their way and seem happy with what they got. Im sorry if you dont like it but that doesnt make it wrong.

Why are they even taking phone calls? This is 2012. We have the internet. We have message boards and support ticket systems.

There is a right and a wrong way to do business. If your business model can't scale to support people actually buying your product, it is wrong.

I sell widgets. My sales model is "E-mail me to set up a phone appointment. Then call me at that time, give me your credit card and address, and I'll send you the widget eventually" is a "wrong" model.

And it doesn't matter how small they are. Most modern indie teams are one or two people too and they DON'T have a dedicated sales department. You know how they function? By setting up a message board for support and using a DD service for sales. And that works for them, but it won't work for the Dom3 devs? What makes them so god damned incompetent? :p

Seriously. That seems to be the problem. They are clinging to an outdated model that didn't even work back when it WAS popular. We bitch and moan if a port doesn't have options for the graphics settings. Maybe 10 years ago we would tolerate that, but not today. But we are supposed to tolerate these devs clinging to a model that screwed the customers just because they are indie devs?

Speaking of right and wrong: You probably should have downplayed the "We are elitest jerks and all bought in to our elitism and it is a mentality and we are awesome" angle :p

Squiz
02-11-2012, 06:45 AM
Extended sounds just like giving in to the public demand. It means nothing there. Ive seen people write to customer support of both Shrapnel and Illwinter to get downloads years later as long as they have a serial or something. Shrapnel is a tiny few-people company. They just dont leave the links forever available. Long enough to download to multiple machines is all you need.Fair enough. I thought it over, dug up the ThreeMovesAhead episodes that mention Dominions 3, and decided to buy the game from the gamersfront store, without extended download service. Soon I am going to do something I haven't done for a long time: Burn a CD to create a backup (which won't be the online copy of the game files I'll have to store away, for sure).

Now I am off to read Bruce Geryk's manual and somehow get a concept of how this game works. All I can say right now is that I like the title screen music.

Heliocentric
02-11-2012, 08:52 AM
Whats hilarious about this thread is that because of its stupid pricing its ended up being long discussed, however because of the aforementioned price most thread readers will instantly dismiss the game. Were the game $10 the readers would likely snap it up, HOWEVER if it were $10 there would be no discussion.

*chortles*

Squiz
02-11-2012, 08:54 AM
Whats hilarious about this thread is that because of its stupid pricing its ended up being long discussed, however because of the aforementioned price most thread readers will instantly dismiss the game. Were the game $10 the readers would likely snap it up, HOWEVER if it were $10 there would be no discussion. *chortles*Then I must be the exception to the rule. Also, why do you've got over 4.000 posts?

Heliocentric
02-11-2012, 09:16 AM
Then I must be the exception to the rule.I said most, not all. You are in the minority, congratulations, greenday approves.
Also, why do you've got over 4.000 posts?

Because I am the king of the universe. Please direct all correspondence via my secretary Kieron Gillen.

Squiz
02-11-2012, 09:39 AM
I said most, not all. You are in the minority, congratulations, greenday approves.To quote Eric Cartman: "I will not live my life, as a goddam minority!" Now, everyone go and buy that game.

NathanH
02-11-2012, 10:23 AM
It isn't a matter of "being kind". It is a matter of following market trends. Not doing so raises some serious red flags. Maybe it is for good reasons, maybe it isn't. As I have mentioned, everything points to bad reasons on this front. Pretty much every good in every market tends to go down in price over time. Yes, there are exceptions. No, video games aren't exceptions.

If I saw a mass market paperback selling for 30 bucks, I would say "Jesus god damned christ, that is an obscene price". I would then check it out. If it were one of Asimov's mysterious "Empire" short story collections/novels that may or may not exist I would grab it in a heartbeat and understand why it cost so much money: It was out of print and a collector's item. If it were 50 Shades of Grey I would point and laugh and understand why it costs so much money: The sales person is a dick :p
This game is being sold digitally by the dev/publisher, so it isn't out of print :p

Same thing here. 70 bucks after 5 years is definitely "obscene". 30 bucks after 5 years is also really messed up and the only other games I know to pull that are the Starcraft and Diablo and Warcraft battlechests, and at least those tend to go for 10-15 bucks per game (you just have to buy as a bundle). And, of course, Blizzard are dicks but they can get away with it because of demand (are they still 30 bucks now that the sequels are out?).

As usual, nothing in this post addresses the point. You have stated that it is a moral imperative for a game to drop in price over time and then when challenged to justify this you talk about "market forces". Market forces have nothing to do with moral imperatives, so retract or justify. One or the other. Why is it morally wrong for a game not to drop in price? Most games drop in price so they get more money, no other reason. This game doesn't drop in price because either it won't get them more money or the publisher (not developer, note---it's Shrapnel setting these prices, not Illwinter) is dim, or the publisher just can't be bothered.

Your problem is you're confusing "unusual" with "obscene", and "usual" with "morally correct". Neither of these steps is obvious.

In passing, something that strikes me as a bit dickish is that it seems impossible to buy Dominions 2 any more. I suppose there's no real reason you should, but I do dislike old games disappearing from availability.

gundato
02-11-2012, 12:51 PM
As usual, nothing in this post addresses the point. You have stated that it is a moral imperative for a game to drop in price over time and then when challenged to justify this you talk about "market forces". Market forces have nothing to do with moral imperatives, so retract or justify. One or the other. Why is it morally wrong for a game not to drop in price? Most games drop in price so they get more money, no other reason. This game doesn't drop in price because either it won't get them more money or the publisher (not developer, note---it's Shrapnel setting these prices, not Illwinter) is dim, or the publisher just can't be bothered.

Your problem is you're confusing "unusual" with "obscene", and "usual" with "morally correct". Neither of these steps is obvious.

In passing, something that strikes me as a bit dickish is that it seems impossible to buy Dominions 2 any more. I suppose there's no real reason you should, but I do dislike old games disappearing from availability.

Uhm, the only person talking about "moral imperatives" is you.

The only things that make me think the devs are dicks is that almost all the defensive arguments that have been posted are either "They can do whatever they want to do because they have no competition" or "It makes us a group of elitest pricks". Sorry, but both of those scream "dick" to me. And not the fun kind of "dick" like Nightwing or porn, but the lame kind of "dick" like politicians and jugglers. :p
And, I'm sorry, but screwing your customers because you can and pretending you are a "special club" to earn more money are dickish behaviors. At least, in my book. Maybe you don't feel that way, but I think most people do (especially since if you replace the correct people in this problem with Activision employees, EVERYONE would agree with me :p).

So yes, we are in full agreement nate. Moral imperatives have nothing to do with market trends or "standard" practices. So it would be nice if you would stop bringing them up in an attempt to make a strawman that doesn't make your favorite dev in the whole wide world look like a dick :p

Tip: Not a smart idea to pretend someone is going off on a tangent when you are building a strawman. NEVER draw attention to the very tactic you are using. At least put a one or two post buffer in between those tactics :p

NathanH
02-11-2012, 02:03 PM
Uhm, the only person talking about "moral imperatives" is you.

The only things that make me think the devs are dicks is that almost all the defensive arguments that have been posted are either "They can do whatever they want to do because they have no competition" or "It makes us a group of elitest pricks". Sorry, but both of those scream "dick" to me. And not the fun kind of "dick" like Nightwing or porn, but the lame kind of "dick" like politicians and jugglers. :p
And, I'm sorry, but screwing your customers because you can and pretending you are a "special club" to earn more money are dickish behaviors. At least, in my book. Maybe you don't feel that way, but I think most people do (especially since if you replace the correct people in this problem with Activision employees, EVERYONE would agree with me :p).

So yes, we are in full agreement nate. Moral imperatives have nothing to do with market trends or "standard" practices. So it would be nice if you would stop bringing them up in an attempt to make a strawman that doesn't make your favorite dev in the whole wide world look like a dick :p

Tip: Not a smart idea to pretend someone is going off on a tangent when you are building a strawman. NEVER draw attention to the very tactic you are using. At least put a one or two post buffer in between those tactics :p

I assumed you were talking about moral imperatives given that your stated position was that any game that is 6 years old and is not heavily discounted is obscene. Further, later in the thread you gave a bunch of reasons why you might not buy a product other than business reasons, and all of them were moral reasons. You've stated that your decision over buying this product is not a business decision, so it must be a moral decision. So yes, if your reasoning for buying this is not based on morality and it is not based on economic considerations, what is it based on?

I don't care what almost all of the defensive arguments made by random people on the internet are, and neither should you. I don't judge a particular group according to what some other group says to defend them. Personally I find gp1472848348's argument to be pretty weak and silly, but that hasn't made me throw my Dominions 3 CD into a fire or anything. My original defence is that this is the best product of its type on the market, and so it's not at all obscene that it is also one of the most expensive. Try asking a bunch of people "it is OK if the best product on the market is one of the most expensive" and see what they say. It might be in the publisher's economic interests to lower the price significantly, but that is beside the point as that is a business consideration that we're not discussing. Can you please explain why a product should fall in price if it hasn't become inferior in relative or absolute terms? No, wait, I got that wrong. Can you please explain why a product must fall in price if it hasn't become inferior in relative or absolute terms?

Your attempts to deflect by saing "OMG imagine if Activision did this!?!" can stop, because I am not a shrill angry internet man and don't hold any particular grudge against Activision, apart from simply disliking most of their games.

vinraith
02-11-2012, 02:17 PM
Yeah, it is still live. Here is the link again:

https://www.gamersfront.com/store/do...awakening.html (https://www.gamersfront.com/store/dominions-3-the-awakening.html)

Thanks, it was still listed as $55 on Shrapnel's main site. Anyway, grabbed it, at long last!

NathanH
02-11-2012, 02:21 PM
Anyway, back on topic, I don't think Conquest of Elysium 3 is particular great. It's all right, fun enough, but features a lot of fussing around and not a lot of doing stuff. The best thing about it is that there are lots of different sides that are different in non-superficial ways. But I think the board is too big relative to the number of combat-capable armies you tend to have.

The Troll commander is pretty fun though.

gundato
02-11-2012, 02:31 PM
I assumed you were talking about moral imperatives given that your stated position was that any game that is 6 years old and is not heavily discounted is obscene. Further, later in the thread you gave a bunch of reasons why you might not buy a product other than business reasons, and all of them were moral reasons. You've stated that your decision over buying this product is not a business decision, so it must be a moral decision. So yes, if your reasoning for buying this is not based on morality and it is not based on economic considerations, what is it based on?

I don't care what almost all of the defensive arguments made by random people on the internet are, and neither should you. I don't judge a particular group according to what some other group says to defend them. Personally I find gp1472848348's argument to be pretty weak and silly, but that hasn't made me throw my Dominions 3 CD into a fire or anything. My original defence is that this is the best product of its type on the market, and so it's not at all obscene that it is also one of the most expensive. Try asking a bunch of people "it is OK if the best product on the market is one of the most expensive" and see what they say. It might be in the publisher's economic interests to lower the price significantly, but that is beside the point as that is a business consideration that we're not discussing. Can you please explain why a product should fall in price if it hasn't become inferior in relative or absolute terms? No, wait, I got that wrong. Can you please explain why a product must fall in price if it hasn't become inferior in relative or absolute terms?

Your attempts to deflect by saing "OMG imagine if Activision did this!?!" can stop, because I am not a shrill angry internet man and don't hold any particular grudge against Activision, apart from simply disliking most of their games.

OH MAH GAWD!! YOU PUT WERDS IN MY MOUTH!! BAD PERSON!!!
Sorry, couldn't resist. :p

Seriously though. I have actually repeatedly stated that it is a business decision, you are the person who keeps saying I am not. I have repeatedly mentioned that the sheer cost is one factor, but WHY it costs that much and WHERE the money goes is another problem.

You are going to refuse to acknowledge it again because it isn't eugenics or prostate-licking, but this is the answer to your question of "what is it based on?" http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?3081-Conquest-of-Elysium-3&p=210208&viewfull=1#post210208
It is based on excatly what I have been saying it is based on. A combination of the price and why it costs that much.

And mostly I am just mockinhg gp because good freaking god his excuses are insanely offensive and funny :p. I still firmly believe it is just a matter of the devs living in the past.

And you are asking the wrong question. The question isn't "Is it okay if the best product on the market is one of the most expensive". The question is "Is it okay if the best product on the market is substantially more expensive than all other similar products?" which is a VERY different question. Also, I still question why I can buy Silent Storm and Jagged Alliance 2 for 10 bucks or less each, but I am expected to pay 70/50/30 bucks for Dom3 :p. Dom3 being the best is arguable and opinion. Silent Storm having the best tactical combat ever is a scientific fact and anyone who says otherwise is a dirty rat-loving bastard who should be drawn and quartered :p.

And a product SHOULD follow the same trends as other products of the same variety. Otherwise, it raises a bunch of questions as to why it is not following the same trends. And in almost all cases, the answer is "The person selling it is a moron"

Squiz
02-11-2012, 02:45 PM
Looking at the "conversation" about game pricing and Dominions 3, I'd say make a new thread. Only a tiny part of this thread here consists of CoE3 discussion.

RobC
02-11-2012, 02:46 PM
Thanks, it was still listed as $55 on Shrapnel's main site. Anyway, grabbed it, at long last!

When you get a chance can you share your opinion about it from a single player perspective?

vinraith
02-11-2012, 02:47 PM
When you get a chance can you share your opinion about it from a single player perspective?

I'd be happy to, but I'm not going to have much time to give it for the forseeable future. I might be able to dabble, but I doubt I'll have learned the game well enough to comment before the new year.

NathanH
02-11-2012, 02:52 PM
Sorry, if you're factoring in where the money goes and why it costs something, you're not making a business decision. You're simply not. The post you're linking to even says this: you give a load of reasons why you might not make a business decision when you buy something.

Let's not put words into your mouth, shall we, but put your own words into your mouth. Your own words being "And sorry, but 30 bucks for a game that is over 6 years old is still "obscene" in my eyes." Are you going to stand by those words (the ones I initially took issue with, let us not forget), or accept they are silly words?

I'll offer you some alternative words to use. How about "I'm not sure it's worth that much money", or "I think I can spend the money more efficiently on other games", or "The price is not necessarily obscene, but I am taking the moral position that their download service is not worth supporting", or "The price is not obscene if it would be a permanent download, but it only lasts a few days so it's worth much less to me". These are all sensible words.


And you are asking the wrong question. The question isn't "Is it okay if the best product on the market is one of the most expensive". The question is "Is it okay if the best product on the market is substantially more expensive than all other similar products?" which is a VERY different question. Also, I still question why I can buy Silent Storm and Jagged Alliance 2 for 10 bucks or less each, but I am expected to pay 70/50/30 bucks for Dom3 :p. Dom3 being the best is arguable and opinion. Silent Storm having the best tactical combat ever is a scientific fact and anyone who says otherwise is a dirty rat-loving bastard who should be drawn and quartered :p.

It's an interesting question, but I don't have any good sales projections at hand and I suppose you don't either so we probably can't pursue the question too far. I'd go as far as saying that Dominions 3 is much more niche than the examples you're giving. Those examples are games that many people interested have probably played, and so most of the modern buyers of the game will be those who are only vaguely interested, or people who already have the game but want it in a more convenient form. For Dominions 3, on the other hand, there are likely to be a lot of potentially-interested people who haven't got the game yet, whereas all the potentially-vaguely-interested people are probably not even going to hear about the game. That's my understanding of the argument for keeping niche games more expensive.

What you usually see with these sorts of game is that they're available from niche stores for expensive until they pop up on a more mainstream store like Steam where they're sold more cheaply. I think that the Avernum games worked like this. I think they are still expensive on the developer's website, even, but I might be wrong about that. I'm not sure Dominions 3 isn't on a more mainstream site; I know that CoE3 got rejected from Steam initially.


And mostly I am just mockinhg gp because good freaking god his excuses are insanely offensive and funny :p. I still firmly believe it is just a matter of the devs living in the past.

Well I'm not going to disagree there. For my part I was mostly just seeing what would happen if I concentrated on just one thing and kept repeating it over and over again, because on most other threads you successfully confuse people by making really long posts where they can't work out what to reply to, and then you win the argument.

Anyway, as the squirrel-lover says, we had probably better stop now.

gundato
02-11-2012, 06:21 PM
Sorry, if you're factoring in where the money goes and why it costs something, you're not making a business decision. You're simply not. The post you're linking to even says this: you give a load of reasons why you might not make a business decision when you buy something.
You work in investment banking and/or the government, don't you? :p

You should ALWAYS consider where your money is going and what it is supporting. And why it costs that much. Otherwise, you really ARE being unethical and you CAN say that I argue it is a moral imperative to at least consider that.

You argue it might not be a purely business decision: Let's cite the second Nolan-Batman movie! Bruce and Morgan Freeman refused to give Chinese Guy money because he laundered money for the mob. Maybe that was a moral reason, but it is also a business reason: You REALLY don't want to go down with them when they get caught.


Let's not put words into your mouth, shall we, but put your own words into your mouth. Your own words being "And sorry, but 30 bucks for a game that is over 6 years old is still "obscene" in my eyes." Are you going to stand by those words (the ones I initially took issue with, let us not forget), or accept they are silly words?
Why would I think they are "silly words"?


I'll offer you some alternative words to use. How about "I'm not sure it's worth that much money", or "I think I can spend the money more efficiently on other games", or "The price is not necessarily obscene, but I am taking the moral position that their download service is not worth supporting", or "The price is not obscene if it would be a permanent download, but it only lasts a few days so it's worth much less to me". These are all sensible words.
No, the price really is obscene. Not as obscene as the 70 dollar price point of last year, but considering that it is really still 55 and is "on sale" I stand by that.

If I try to sell you a pencil for fifty dollars, that is an obscene price point. And it better be a god damned amazing pencil that will write for you and massage your prostate when you are lonely.




It's an interesting question, but I don't have any good sales projections at hand and I suppose you don't either so we probably can't pursue the question too far. I'd go as far as saying that Dominions 3 is much more niche than the examples you're giving. Those examples are games that many people interested have probably played, and so most of the modern buyers of the game will be those who are only vaguely interested, or people who already have the game but want it in a more convenient form. For Dominions 3, on the other hand, there are likely to be a lot of potentially-interested people who haven't got the game yet, whereas all the potentially-vaguely-interested people are probably not even going to hear about the game. That's my understanding of the argument for keeping niche games more expensive.
I argue that Dom3 is only "niche" BECAUSE of the price point. Mechanically, it falls into the same general category as a paradox or Total War game. And Paradox made 143 million SEK last year which I assume is good money. Sure not all of that was HoI and Crusader Kings, but it is safe to assume they still made enough off of that to support them in the years before they branched out.

The problem is: For whatever reason, the dom3 dev just won't accept people's money. If I sell lemonade for 50 dollars a glass, I am not selling "niche" lemonade. I am a moron :p. People WANT the lemonade, but they refuse to give me that much money.

Honestly, it reminds me of when high schoolers make a game in game maker that looks like trash and handles worse than PETA's Super Tofu Boy. They use the excuse "It is an homage to the 8-bit era" as a crutch. No, it is just garbage.

Dom3 is not raking in the cash (I think we can both agree it is safe to assume the devs aren't millionaires because of it :p) because it is a niche game. Dom3 is not raking in the cash because the sales model is crap and many of the people who DO decide to spend the money refuse after seeing the hoops they will have to hop through.


What you usually see with these sorts of game is that they're available from niche stores for expensive until they pop up on a more mainstream store like Steam where they're sold more cheaply. I think that the Avernum games worked like this. I think they are still expensive on the developer's website, even, but I might be wrong about that. I'm not sure Dominions 3 isn't on a more mainstream site; I know that CoE3 got rejected from Steam initially.
Honestly, I think CoE3 probably got rejected for a horrifyingly bad sales blurb. Seriously, go read it. I just skimmed it and said "Me want, buy" but after actually reading it, I think that is going to be the biggest barrier to sales. And it further reinforces my belief that the devs are idiots who are clinging to the sales model of the late 90s/very early 00s: He just doesn't give a crap about selling the games.




Well I'm not going to disagree there. For my part I was mostly just seeing what would happen if I concentrated on just one thing and kept repeating it over and over again, because on most other threads you successfully confuse people by making really long posts where they can't work out what to reply to, and then you win the argument.
I won an argument on these boards? News to me. Can you cite it so that I can go get a warm fuzzy feeling? :p

And I am really not sure WHAT you were focusing on. Judging by this post it seems like you took offense to the word "obscene". And to that, I say "So the hell what?"


Anyway, as the squirrel-lover says, we had probably better stop now.
Why? It is an interesting discussion. The argument of what a game SHOULD cost after a certain amount of time.

Squiz
02-11-2012, 07:54 PM
Why? It is an interesting discussion. The argument of what a game SHOULD cost after a certain amount of time.See, this thread is supposed to be about CoE3. I suggested that if you want to talk about pricing issues, you start a new thread for this, as the to and fro in your discussion has little to nothing to do with that game.

JiminyJickers
03-11-2012, 11:18 AM
See, this thread is supposed to be about CoE3. I suggested that if you want to talk about pricing issues, you start a new thread for this, as the to and fro in your discussion has little to nothing to do with that game.

Yeah, I agree.

Maybe this thread's heading should be changed as there is pretty much no discussion about CoE3.

Heliocentric
05-12-2012, 12:32 AM
SALE BUMP:Bundle Edition

http://www.indieroyale.com/
Current minimum £3.34

arathain
05-12-2012, 03:20 AM
It's a neat game. There are a bunch of things that take some getting used to- mostly the pace, the archaic interface, and the limited action set. Still, it's the sort of thing I'm clearly going to keep installed forever and come back to on a whim fairly regularly. It has the feel of a strategy Roguelike- lots of options and freedom, lots of randomness, and failure comes quickly. Games are not so long that you aren't tempted to jump straight into a new one when you lose.

I love the variety in the races you can play as, and I love how many different units there are. There's a lot of learning to do, since it's always hard to know what fights you can win without a lot of experience, but that learning is part of the charm. Hey, I've got a pretty tough army- how tough can a Beholder be anyway.. oh god not the face!

Prester John
15-02-2013, 09:07 PM
Just got this from Steam for £1.74 (available until feb 21st).....

Bobtree
15-02-2013, 11:58 PM
I bought it too. I love roguelikes and some roguelike-likes, and wanted to support Illwinter a bit, so I'll give it a spin.

Dominions 3 was intriguing and I tried the demo, but it's so rough and full of slow minutia that I'll never get my friends to learn it and play year long games. Total War: Dominions 4 would blow me away, but the odds of that happening are pretty much zero.