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measurements
12-06-2011, 05:51 PM
I'm wondering if there should be a forum section called "PC Gaming Discussion Discussion" because I got one of them. It's to do with female types that do games journalism. Which is going to make me sound inherently sexist. Bear with me.

RPS fourteen minutes of Skyrim (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/06/08/dragoning-on-fourteen-minutes-of-skyrim/)
In the featured video there, there's a lady that gets excited about Skyrim and there's this running thread of comments that question her believability. I've seen it happen elsewhere. Someone mentioned Lisa Foiles in that comments thread and she has this 'top 5' video on The Escapist which I looked at in order to humour myself, then glanced at this firestorm of debate over her gender and appearance. What is going on?

What I get conflicted about, and what I would like to discuss, is whether notably hot women working in gaming are there because of their gaming and journalist acumen or because of their looks. Obviously you have to go on a case by case basis, but I personally get the feeling that good looking women that want to get into games journalism might just have an easy ride because of the cynical man behind them, pushing eye candy for the purposes of the bottom line.

I remember once watching The Destructoid Show and Tara Long gave a game a one word review of 'meh', which is a fucking crime. Sure, men also make bad reviews and she is usually pretty sharp but it gets concerning when someone's job is games journalism and that crime of a word is the best that they can come up with.

I can't get my head around it. Note that I'm not trying to be sexist here, I think that anyone with the capabilities for the job is fit for it. My question is then: are female games journalists too often picked for their looks and gender instead of their acumen as journalists, because of the male-heavy target audience?

Jockie
12-06-2011, 06:05 PM
Well, I think there are probably some cues being taken from the wider media in terms of video-journalism, in that a male-female presenting partnership is nearly always seen as preferable to male-male, in terms of engaging the widest audience. Because the audience for these kinds of shows is far younger than that of say, the news, they are always going to have younger more attractive people presenting it.

I think it applies in a lot of cases to both the men and women in video journalism, that they are picked in terms of 'can they engage the audience' and 'will they attract viewers personally' (rather than just the games titles). That can be the only reasonable explanation, for not only the prevalence of 'hot' women on those shows, but also men with silly goatees.

icupnimpn2
12-06-2011, 07:06 PM
There is a roundtable discussion of women in comics at ComicsAlliance that touches on a lot of these matters from the "geek girl" perspective. The same questions are asked - does being a moderately attractive or "hot" woman give a career advantage?

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/05/20/women-comics-roundtable/

I haven't seen the same kind of discourse with women in gaming.

Rii
12-06-2011, 07:30 PM
Heh, Lisa Foiles. It's her that folks are tuning in for, not the content. And I'm sure she's perfectly aware of that.

I'm not really sure what to think of it beyond that. I mean, it's more than her physical appearance: it's also her voice, mannerisms, and so on. And once we allow that, what's the difference between her and, say, Yahtzee?

All I know is that she makes for a bright distraction on a dreary day.

Skull
12-06-2011, 07:30 PM
Someone mentioned Lisa Foiles in that comments thread and she has this 'top 5' video on The Escapist which I looked at in order to humour myself, then glanced at this firestorm of debate over her gender and appearance. What is going on?

The Escapist is a site which prides itself on the appearance and personality of their journalists, they can talk absolute crap about a game but they do it in such a funny (sometimes) and entertaining way that it easily can make more views than a more serious review. The few Lisa Foiles videos I have watched were absolutly dreadful but she's stuck in my mind because she's fucking fit. I doubt The Escapist will ever hire an unattractive female to talk crap about games because I'm sure some ugly bird will halve their potential viewers.

Rii
12-06-2011, 07:42 PM
The Escapist is a site which prides itself on the appearance and personality of their journalists, they can talk absolute crap about a game but they do it in such a funny (sometimes) and entertaining way that it easily can make more views than a more serious review.

For my part I think Extra Credits is more reliably intelligent and insightful than just about any other regular (i.e. scheduled) production I've come across.

deano2099
12-06-2011, 07:49 PM
There's no ugly men doing video-journalism in gaming either though are there?

Yes, I think that to some extent there's a push for male/female presenting partnerships, and there are so few women trying to get in to games journalism they're probably at an advantage. And for for video-journalism, being attractive is also an advantage for either sex.

But all that said, in my very limited experience, I don't think they employ unqualified people just for their looks. The one person I know working in this area is certainly more than qualified on the journalism side.

Lambchops
12-06-2011, 08:05 PM
I think it applies in a lot of cases to both the men and women in video journalism, that they are picked in terms of 'can they engage the audience' and 'will they attract viewers personally' (rather than just the games titles). That can be the only reasonable explanation, for not only the prevalence of 'hot' women on those shows, but also men with silly goatees.

Because if there's one thing I love it's a silly goatee!

Zorganist
12-06-2011, 08:50 PM
I watched a Lisa Foiles video, and she didn't seem any more attractive than any other women I know, she just has relatively large tits.

Really, I think the reason that there appears to be a larger amount of 'hot' women in video journalism is that there are, generally, more attractive women then there are notably unattractive ones; female video games journalists are not unusually attractive, they're perfectly normal, average women. And remember that games journalism is a relatively young media, and the majority of people working in it are also relatively young, and hence, more attractive.

Besides which, the problem (if there even is one) isn't exclusive to video games journalism, just watch a news broadcast and compare the female newsreaders and/or weather girls to the male ones.

pandora
12-06-2011, 10:39 PM
I've watched one of her top-5 series videos, too, and I cannot think of why I'd ever do it again. Content was much more irritating than her looks could ever be pleasing. Didn't think they cover video games on girls' disney channel now.

Basilicus
12-06-2011, 10:45 PM
It's a mistake to think it's only represented in games journalism. At least in America, there are a great many female anchors, film hosts, and field reporters (and especially in sports reporting) who have obviously been chosen for looks over talent.

The problem is when there's a backlash against someone like Morgan Webb, who - like her or hate her - has worked her butt off in multiple roles for years at G4. Or take the backlash after The Daily Show hired Olivia Munn, someone who quite obviously traded on her body for years, but also worked very hard over those years and has displayed a considerable level of comedic talent.

TillEulenspiegel
12-06-2011, 10:50 PM
In the featured video there, there's a lady that gets excited about Skyrim and there's this running thread of comments that question her believability.
That's a bit misleading. People were talking about both presenters as annoying and insincere. In fairness, there are a <i>lot</i> of annoying/idiotic people in tech/game journalism.

Veronica Belmont is pretty good. Gina Trapani is beyond awesome, but she doesn't do anything with games. Belinda Vaughan of IncGamers knows her stuff. Bunch of women on gaming podcasts I couldn't name offhand, though Brilliant Gameologists comes to mind.

Ignore the annoying crap. Watch/listen to the good stuff.

syllopsium
13-06-2011, 12:57 AM
I'd have to say that no, I don't think female game journalists get much of a push over their male alternatives. That may be skewed slightly by the fact the games journalism I consume is all print/web based, but the female game journalists I read seem just as capable as the men.

Lisa Foiles is clearly fronting lots of fluff, she knows it and it's surely what the audience want given the large amount of 'top 5 excuses to talk rubbish about things' She wouldn't be my first choice for hot, though.. Also, they dis the Vectrex, which is an unforgivable crime..

DainIronfoot
13-06-2011, 11:12 AM
Can we chuck the return of booth babes at E3 into this thread too?

I mean, they had booth babes promoting SPACE MARINE.

How does that even work? I saw the photos, they'd gone to the trouble of building a great big drop pod which one could play the game in and then made sure it was populated by... women in tight white t-shirts with their logo on. It just doesn't quite make sense to me, I know there is the idea that sex sells, but how exactly does it work in this largely press only context? And how on earth do you end up deciding that a game based on what is perceived as one of the most geeky IPs around would have it's image really improved by having a few women paid to stand around in tight t-shirts and short shorts. I mean is anyone going to be fooled by that?

- Do they hope that scantily clad women will attract games journalists to their stand? Are game journalists that easily taken in? I shouldn't think so and I imagine most of them have some form of pre-arranged schedule ANYWAY and aren't going to be taken in by such ploys. (Then again, the cheering and whooping after some of the big E3 announcements does rather make me wonder..) I take it that this is seen as a good marketing practice because most of those attending E3 are male?

- Do they think that having scantily clad women will cause games journalists to write a more positive preview? Erm.. see most of the questions above..

It does do a great job in reinforcing the idea that games are still mostly aimed at teenage boys however.

Bhazor
13-06-2011, 03:46 PM
Can we chuck the return of booth babes at E3 into this thread too?

I mean, they had booth babes promoting SPACE MARINE.

How does that even work? I saw the photos, they'd gone to the trouble of building a great big drop pod which one could play the game in and then made sure it was populated by... women in tight white t-shirts with their logo on.

Actually I would have really liked it if they had used massive body builders who would scream in your ear like a cammel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVfqkNfNBVA)all through the demo. I think that would have set the tone.

But yeah, attractive women as marketing is about as old a trick as they come. Cars, comics, games, I even so a booth babe at an industrial articulated door convention. The men are actually more annoying I'd say, just look at the horrendous MTV videogame coverage.

Just stick to the blogs you can trust to use people who know what they're talking about and avoid the sponsered TV spots.

For example- The Fragdolls
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxY89wR6728

A group of girl gamers hired by Ubisoft to do a preview of a Ubisoft game without actually mentioning they were hired by Ubisoft.

Personally I blame it on how Jade Raymond was treated. A woman leading a dev team on an ambitious project to launch a new franchise. A woman with genuine programming credentials. A woman who talked happily and knowlegebaly about the game and industry. A woman who commited the carnal sin of wearing make up for an interview. A woman who was thus rightly called a whore and treated as a glamour girl by Kotaku/Destructoid/almost every other blog.

I can imagine many female game journalists throwing their hands up and just refusing to appear on camera. So the PR companies hire models to read out their scripts and only the most exhibitionist journalists get a look in.

DainIronfoot
13-06-2011, 04:31 PM
Handily, look what gametrailers just posted.

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2011-e3-2011/716236

Heh.. well judging by the comments I guess it works. Good one gamers? :(

It is slightly confusing for me though. I just can't ever see myself going "Hey, that game dev paid some really attractive women to pose next to it. I must buy this game!/My interest in this game has increased!"

Skeletor68
13-06-2011, 05:13 PM
It's all a little shameful really isn't it? Does anyone follow the brilliant http://gomakemeasandwich.wordpress.com/ blog by Wundergeek? She mentiones the booth babe phenomenon in a recent post. She is consistently funny and really does point out how pathetic things like bikini armour in video games are.

Vexing Vision
13-06-2011, 05:45 PM
The Fragdolls haven't been hired by UbiSoft exclusively. I know because one of them used to be Community Manager for around two weeks in a company (True Games Interactive) we were working with. After that, she was fired because she was absolutely and utterly terrible at her job. She's been a Fragdoll all the time.

DainIronfoot
13-06-2011, 06:09 PM
It's all a little shameful really isn't it? Does anyone follow the brilliant http://gomakemeasandwich.wordpress.com/ blog by Wundergeek? She mentiones the booth babe phenomenon in a recent post. She is consistently funny and really does point out how pathetic things like bikini armour in video games are.

I'm nervous about discussing this sort of stuff as there is a recent trend in the comment threads where this comes up of commenters arriving and going "Haha, look at you internet white knights! You are not manly enough for a woman!"

So I stick to pointing out flaws in art design and how I think booth babes as a marketing ploy is a bit silly.

Bhazor
13-06-2011, 06:35 PM
The Fragdolls haven't been hired by UbiSoft exclusively. I know because one of them used to be Community Manager for around two weeks in a company (True Games Interactive) we were working with. After that, she was fired because she was absolutely and utterly terrible at her job. She's been a Fragdoll all the time.

Well according to their own website
"The Frag Dolls are a team of professional female gamers recruited by Ubisoft to promote their video games and represent the presence of women in the game industry. These gamer girls play and promote games at industry and game community events, compete in tournaments, and participate daily in online gamer geek activities."
http://dev.fragdolls.com/index.php/about

Admittedly I haven't seen them posing in bikinis or anything but the whole "represent the presence of women in the game industry" part makes them sound like some kind of traveling freak show.

Roll up! Roll up! See a woman pwn a n00b!

Also Gametrailer comments often embarrass the kind of people who argue on youtube videos.

Stijn
13-06-2011, 06:38 PM
I can't get my head around it. Note that I'm not trying to be sexist here, I think that anyone with the capabilities for the job is fit for it. My question is then: are female games journalists too often picked for their looks and gender instead of their acumen as journalists, because of the male-heavy target audience?

Undoubtedly. You'll find the same pattern in a lot of other businesses. With gaming coming from an especially male-dominated background, it'll probably take a while before this goes away. And even then, I can't really think of a lot of women who appear on tv (in general) regularly and aren't at least somewhat attractive.

Vexing Vision
13-06-2011, 06:45 PM
Fair enough, Bhazor, they sold out. :D

From what I know is that they used to be an actual "serious" gaming clan before, for a given value of seriousness regarding accepting only girls who'd look good on a photo.

westyfield
13-06-2011, 07:08 PM
Hey Ash, Whatcha Playin? (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2011-hawp/715503?type=flv)'s first E3 video is kinda relevant, but also funny.

deano2099
14-06-2011, 08:23 PM
I find hot women in revealing outfits pleasant to look at.

Were I at some sort of games convention, they might help draw my eye to something I'd otherwise ignore. They certainly wouldn't impact my opinion of the game. I presume they work, otherwise they wouldn't be hired.

Never had a problem with bikini armour either. It's a common enough fantasy trope that it doesn't ruin the realism for me, and again, it's pleasant to the eye. On the other hand, I do all my gaming alone, I like to be immersed in a game, so I wouldn't be playing it in front of a girlfriend/friend/parent.

I'm quite aware you're not meant to say all that, and there are all sorts of issues over sexism in games, putting off potential female gamers, making the industry appear juvenile to non-gamers... but I'm somehow missing whatever gene it is that makes men get hugely offended by it and want to stamp it out.

TillEulenspiegel
14-06-2011, 08:55 PM
but I'm somehow missing whatever gene it is that makes men get hugely offended by it and want to stamp it out.
Empathy? Ability to think about the consequences of the objectification of half of humanity?

Xercies
14-06-2011, 09:12 PM
I would say its not bad to like these things if they are the exception to the rule, unfortunately with gaming it basically is the rule so basically it needs to be stamped out of gaming a lot

DainIronfoot
14-06-2011, 10:31 PM
I'm quite aware you're not meant to say all that, and there are all sorts of issues over sexism in games, putting off potential female gamers, making the industry appear juvenile to non-gamers... but I'm somehow missing whatever gene it is that makes men get hugely offended by it and want to stamp it out.

I wouldn't worry about it, you're definitely in the majority when it comes to gamers.

As I said, I'm not even going to bother arguing my views, there's far more eloquent folk out there. I will say that I hate most fantasy armour design in general, and chainmail bikinis in particular. That's probably because I quite like good art design in my games.

J.B.
14-06-2011, 11:06 PM
I came here for the thread title (brilliant!), stayed for the interesting thoughts.

I have to hold my hand up and say much as I love boobies, I'd much rather have more realistic armour design in games. Not 100% authentic, just not armour bikinis and stockings etc. (Oh yeah, stockings, I like them too)

deano2099
14-06-2011, 11:09 PM
Empathy? Ability to think about the consequences of the objectification of half of humanity?

That's the thing I have a problem with. Objectification. At least in terms of 'booth babes', the women in question basically agree to be objectified in exchange for money. I don't see anything wrong with that. But just because these women are objectified at trade shows does not mean that half of the world's population is being objectified.

Maybe I put too much faith in people's ability to compartmentalise, but I meet a booth babe on-duty at a trade show, I'll enjoy whatever is on display, be pleasant and polite and go about my business. Do I objectify her? Yes, absolutely. And no, I wouldn't make any attempt to engage with her on a deeper, more human level, as any given trade show is full of guys trying to engage with those girls 'on a deeper, more human level' in the hope that they might have a shot with her later on.

But then, if I meet that same girl, in an entirely different situation, I would never dream of objectifying her or treating her as anything less than the fully-faceted human being she is. I'm entirely capable of making that distinction and don't see the problem.

(Before anyone starts telling me about these poor, exploited girls at trade shows who have no choice but to work there, I'd also point out that if you're a stunningly attractive young women, there are plenty of other avenues of work available to you that don't involve posing in skimpy costumes: bar work and waitressing for a start. They probably pay about a tenth of what trade-show modelling does, and won't help with your modelling or acting career, but these women have options.)

When it's fictional women in games, I care even less. But again, I'm capable of understanding the difference between a collection of polygons which is designed entirely to entertain me (and I find titilation entertaining) and a real woman. I no more expect an actual woman to dress and look like a video game character than I do for her to start walking forwards when I hit the W key.

That's not to say there aren't wider, more societal problems here that are reflected in gaming, but I see gaming as a reflection of the whole, rather than a medium that is particulary bad at the whole feminism thing.

DainIronfoot
15-06-2011, 12:56 PM
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/06/15/e3-2011-booth-babe-babes-bonanza/

RPS wins.

I think your missing the point about female characters in games Deano. I'm not aware of any who get their ideas on how women should be from games, if there are that's a whole different kettle of fish which has nothing to do with me.

You and others may well get titillated and entertained by big polygon breasts and think that it's a good thing that most characters are designed this way. The point is that it just reconfirms the common perception many have of videogames: that they're designed for teenage boys.

Not to mention the rubbish and impractical art design that accompanies it. This would be fine if it was the exception rather than the rule. But it isn't.

Kablooie
15-06-2011, 01:27 PM
I will confess to always trying to catch Layla Kayleigh when I had G4TV. Something about her looks and accent riveted me every time; I never got around to wondering about her gaming cred.

*cough*. OP, your post reminds me of the situation with the NFL and locker room journalists - female ones. IMO, they shouldn't be in there, I don't care how PCorrect it is or not. Then they sue when some annoyed (or interested) player shakes something at them. Makes me wonder . . . . . any cases of male reporters in female locker rooms? I bet not!

As for chainmail bikini's, I'm a firm supporter of the Female Inverse Armor Law. :)

deano2099
15-06-2011, 01:52 PM
I think we just disagree on the direction of the causality. For me, that sort of imagery in games isn't out of place because of the kinds of stories games tell and experiences games create. Pretty much every Hollywood blockbuster puts the female lead in tight outfits in an attempt to titilate. 'Serious' dramas and more mature films don't.

Games are exactly the same, except 99% of games fit in the 'blockbuster' mould in terms of quality of writing, story and so on. Once we start making mature games, we'll start getting maturely designed characters. Chainmail bikinis don't look out of place because the games they exist in are so shallow to start with. Getting rid of them won't suddenly make games grow up.

So while games remain mostly shallow, throwaway experiences, I have no problem with them being sexed-up.

choconutjoe
15-06-2011, 02:02 PM
Ah the sticky subject of sexual objectification (pun fully intended). Rather than risk making a fool of myself by trying to take on a massive issue way beyond my grasp, I'll just leave this link here: http://www.feminisnt.com/2009/frequently-addressed-accusation-porn-objectifies-women-as-sex-objects/

Furry Girl is a sex worker and blogger who writes eloquently on the issue of people criticising her work. I realise it's only tangentially related (I'm not sure if being a booth babe can be called 'sex work'), but since someone mentioned objectification, I figured some people might enjoy reading this perspective on the matter. A quick snippet:

"Being objectified" by customers is not something that sex workers themselves are railing against as an injustice they seek to overcome. It's a half-baked analysis being imposed upon our work from outsiders- outsiders who presume to tell the world what we experience and how we feel about it, without ever having asked us. That, in and of itself, should tell you a lot about whether or not it's a real problem.

deano2099
15-06-2011, 02:04 PM
*cough*. OP, your post reminds me of the situation with the NFL and locker room journalists - female ones. IMO, they shouldn't be in there, I don't care how PCorrect it is or not. Then they sue when some annoyed (or interested) player shakes something at them. Makes me wonder . . . . . any cases of male reporters in female locker rooms? I bet not!


And despite being this thread's designated chauvinist, I disagree entirely on this. A journalist has a job to do and has a right not to be sexually harassed while doing her job. You either let reporters in to locker rooms, or you don't. Frankly I'd go with "don't" as it just sounds daft to me, but clubs want the publicity. But if you do, the laws of common decency aren't suspended just because it's a locker room.

DainIronfoot
15-06-2011, 02:11 PM
Deano: I agree entirely on the movie analogy, it's one I tried to draw myself in my previous post but then deleted. But yes, in movies it's certainly more balanced.

You're right that it wouldn't suddenly make games more mature, but it'd probably be a good start as any. And as I said, it smacks of lazy, clichéd art design which I don't like. You can design an attractive female character without giving her a chest fit for a herd of cows and giving her nothing to wear other than some strategically placed pieces of cloth.

TillEulenspiegel
15-06-2011, 02:14 PM
Female journalists typically aren't sex workers.

As predicted, this got depressing fast. Oh well.

choconutjoe
15-06-2011, 02:20 PM
Female journalists typically aren't sex workers.

As predicted, this got depressing fast. Oh well.

I don't know if that was directed at me or not, but I had the whole 'booth babes' discussion more in mind when I posted the link. Like I said, only tangentially related.

Vexing Vision
15-06-2011, 02:21 PM
Fun story: Promoting either Dirt or Dirt 2 (I can't remember which one it was), Codemasters auditioned for a "Dirty Girl".

The Gamescom went fine, until a media outlet (I believe it was Kotaku) outed the girl as an... hum... semi-famous actress of particularly dirty movies.

Instead of just nodding and going with it, Codemasters scrambled for two weeks and tried to distance themselves from this. I think their booth babes are a lot less revealing than before ever since.

deano2099
15-06-2011, 02:45 PM
Deano: I agree entirely on the movie analogy, it's one I tried to draw myself in my previous post but then deleted. But yes, in movies it's certainly more balanced.

You're right that it wouldn't suddenly make games more mature, but it'd probably be a good start as any. And as I said, it smacks of lazy, clichéd art design which I don't like. You can design an attractive female character without giving her a chest fit for a herd of cows and giving her nothing to wear other than some strategically placed pieces of cloth.

True, from an art design point of video it's totally valid. I kind of feel that when a game comes along that is deep enough though, someone will go "hang on this girl looks ridiculous". Actually in The Longest Journey, having the first scene feature the heroine in her skimpy nightwear was somewhat jarring.

I also get wound up when a game actually give a good go at including a variety of female body types and people still get upset because of one of them has a large bust, as if they don't exist.

Kablooie
15-06-2011, 05:09 PM
And despite being this thread's designated chauvinist, I disagree entirely on this. A journalist has a job to do and has a right not to be sexually harassed while doing her job. You either let reporters in to locker rooms, or you don't. Frankly I'd go with "don't" as it just sounds daft to me, but clubs want the publicity. But if you do, the laws of common decency aren't suspended just because it's a locker room.

I agree with you; the solution is a compromise that many would dislike: ban media from the locker room, regardless of gender.

If I'm a player, I'm tired, spent, and in a bad mood if it was a loss, last thing I need is a reporter, especially female, making rounds in the locker room. Not that I would go out of my way to harass her, but I'm tired, I likely just want to avoid her. Unfortunately heading for the shower sans towel is considered harrassment these days.

Do I have the pull or right to change lockerroom policy as a player? Highly unlikely. Maybe if I'm Peyton Manning. Some want it as they want more endorsements.

I understand PCorrectness, but there's also RL. Harrassment doesn't have a firm standard.

Edit: As for the booth babes, really could care less. If I'm excited about the game, they're actually in the way. Trying to distract me from what I'm really interested in.

Ninjafoodstuff
16-06-2011, 01:50 PM
Why so much introspection? A huge number of people read Nuts magazine ffs. All this is for them.

Jaxtrasi
16-06-2011, 04:49 PM
So while games remain mostly shallow, throwaway experiences, I have no problem with them being sexed-up.

Grace and Anna from Planescape: Torment respectively agree and disagree with this point. IIRC Torment's entire design brief disagrees with you strongly. Not that I disagree with you, I think it's fairly likely.

EDIT: Most of the female cast of Bloodlines too. Tricky. I've never actually seen anyone slate Torment or Bloodlines for it. Perhaps the game comes across as self-aware enough to get away with it?

deano2099
16-06-2011, 06:07 PM
It's tough with fantasy style games, as it can be argued that's part of the aesthetic. It's unrealistic for her to be wearing something that slutty, but then one of the other characters is a talking skull.

Plus Annah is very much meant to be something of a flirt and she's not a front-line fighter either.

Bloodlines again... well Bloodlines is very much a story that's driven by sex and seduction, so over-emphasising those elements graphically sort of works.

Notable that Heavy Rain and Fahrenheit didn't go down that path at all as they're meant to be in a more realistic setting.

Jaxtrasi
17-06-2011, 12:08 PM
Notable that Heavy Rain and Fahrenheit didn't go down that path at all as they're meant to be in a more realistic setting.

Were we playing the same game? They both had very gratuitous sexualisation. Not significantly greater sexualisation than a typical straight-to-TV splatter horror movie, but they're firmly at the "not grown up" end of the spectrum anyway. It wasn't omnipresent (i.e. one of the characters wasn't wearing a swimsuit throughout the game) but I wouldn't hold them up of examples of games that demonstrate that games can escape the cycle of imagery.

deano2099
17-06-2011, 01:08 PM
Were we playing the same game? They both had very gratuitous sexualisation. Not significantly greater sexualisation than a typical straight-to-TV splatter horror movie, but they're firmly at the "not grown up" end of the spectrum anyway. It wasn't omnipresent (i.e. one of the characters wasn't wearing a swimsuit throughout the game) but I wouldn't hold them up of examples of games that demonstrate that games can escape the cycle of imagery.

I've not got far through Heavy Rain, but yes Fahrenheit had sex in it, but it was sex that served the purpose of characterisation. Even if the zombie-sex scene was a total failure in that aspect. I didn't find it particularly gratuitous. And the rest of the plot was more 'grown up'.