Obsidian shutting down?

[BobbyFizz]

Not really any skin off my nose but I suppose it's always a shame when everything goes tits-up:


From the article here http://geek.pikimal.com/2012/03/14/obsidian-cancels-next-gen-project-lays-off-development-team/

"Although Obsidian has not made a public statement, a few now-former employees have taken to social media to confirm the news. Animator Andre Nguyen tweeted his best wishes to “fellow Obsidianites who were laid off today” and producer Jason Feder also sent out a tweet saying, “So long, Obsidian.” Meanwhile, programmer Michael Bosley, who is still with the company, got straight to the point in a Google+ post, writing, “Obsidian laid off a bunch of folks today.”

Edit:
Michael Bosleys' google+ post https://plus.google.com/101129273233272389303/posts/fBUJjJVwvxT

[Kelron]

Very sad if it's true, but I'd like to see the news from a reliable source first. Also, cancelling one project and laying off staff working on it does not mean the entire studio is shutting down, though obviously it indicates financial problems.

[Battle Programmer Spike]

Oh gods... I hope this doesn't come to Obsidian shutting down for real.

[Voon]

To think they were doing just fine...

Are they going bankrupt or something?

[Battle Programmer Spike]

So far nothing official, Voon... but it has been know that for the past six months the managers/owners of the company have been going on without salary just to be able to pay the staff they wanted to keep. The cancellation of this next gen project that was supposedly for the new Microsoft's console will make things worse. Hopefully whatever other project they have running will keep em afloat for a while.

[jnx]

Very sad if true. Obsidian was so close to excellent on many an occasion, but never quite reached it. They would've deserved a hit game. On the past few days I've actually been playing Alpha Protocol (bought from some steam sale, you know the story), and it has plenty of nice ideas. It's just too bad the execution is lacking on every part.

[soldant]

It's just too bad the execution is lacking on every part.
That's my biggest problem with Obsidian games. It's like Bohemia Interactive's ARMA series. They're great games encrusted with a shell of impenetrable bugs or weird issues that simply shouldn't exist. You leave them alone for ages until they're patched to a decent state, by which point the price has dropped anyway. And apparently support is too little, too late.

[Battle Programmer Spike]

Sadly (or fortunately? hum...), that's hardly they fault, since most of the times the publisher is the one calling the shots at how long support will be active since Obsidian are just contractors.

[R-F]

Obsidian: Kickstarter, please.

[Voon]

Obsidian: Kickstarter, please.

Haven't they discussed about it already? I mean, they intend to make a kickstarter project for Planscape 2 iirc

[Heliocentric]

I'd buy alpha protocol or new vegas again tbut I'm not convinced that they are getting the money. Where is the tip jar?

[Althea]

Sadly (or fortunately? hum...), that's hardly they fault, since most of the times the publisher is the one calling the shots at how long support will be active since Obsidian are just contractors.
Pretty much this. Obsidian have been constantly held back by publishers - KotOR2 still affects their reputation to this day, but a lot of people don't seem to realise it released like it did because of LucasArts, not because of any real fault on the side of Obsidian.

If this is true, it's sad, but Obsidian never really managed to get past their reputation - even with New Vegas. Hopefully some of those who have been laid off find work quickly. I would guess that inXile is hiring ;)

[Drake Sigar]

Obsidian's games may have been buggy unfinished messes, but they were some of the best buggy unfinished messes I've ever played outside of the Ultima series. Hell, KotoR 2 is better than KotoR 1 in terms of characters & story. NWN 2 was a better official game than 1 (although to be fair, 1 was just a brilliantly simple toolset), New Vegas was better than Fallout 3! Alpha Protocol was the best RPG hybrid to come out in the last five years. Wait hang on. *Wikipedia* Ok we're good, Bloodlines came out in 2004.

[R-F]

Obsidian's games may have been buggy unfinished messes, but they were some of the best buggy unfinished messes I've ever played outside of the Ultima series. Hell, KotoR 2 is better than KotoR 1 in terms of characters & story. NWN 2 was a better official game than 1 (although to be fair, 1 was just a brilliantly simple toolset), New Vegas was better than Fallout 3! Alpha Protocol was the best RPG hybrid to come out in the last five years. Wait hang on. *Wikipedia* Ok we're good, Bloodlines came out in 2004.

Pretty much this. Obsidian's games might be mildly buggy, but they always push the boat forward in terms of storytelling, character development and general awesomeness. And then you see them barely sell, and BioWare's games make millions and you're just left scratching your head.

Alpha Protocol is BioWare wants to make when they say "cinematic RPG" (and, in fact, they tried to rip it off for Dragon Age 2, but failed miserably) and it introduced the "three choice method" used lately in BioWare's RPGs. Sadly unplayed because people.

[karthink]

Alpha Protocol is BioWare wants to make when they say "cinematic RPG" (and, in fact, they tried to rip it off for Dragon Age 2, but failed miserably) and it introduced the "three choice method" used lately in BioWare's RPGs. Sadly unplayed because people.

I think you a few words?

[R-F]

I think you a few words?

No.

Because people. >:|

[karthink]

OK, but I also didn't understand what you were trying to say. Dragon Age 2 was an Alpha Protocol rip-off? How? Alpha Protocol was cinematic? And Obsidian ripped off the "three choice method"?

[Drake Sigar]

Taking one element (timed attitude choices) from AP doesn't make DA2 a ripoff. That's like saying F.E.A.R is a ripoff of Max Payne because of slo mo. If anything I thought DA2 was an unwelcome ripoff of Mass Effect, if you can even call it that when both games belong to the same studio.

Also, Thorton beats Hawke & Shepard in a handicap match any day of the week. And I'm sick of having to look up how to spell Shepard every time I want to... do that.

[karthink]

DA2 had timed attitude choices? I'm failing to see any connection between it and AP.

[soldant]

Sadly (or fortunately? hum...), that's hardly they fault, since most of the times the publisher is the one calling the shots at how long support will be active since Obsidian are just contractors.
Perhaps, but it seems to be a consistent thing with Obsidian. I can understand publishers shafting them (KOTOR2 being the biggest example) but given that they have a history of this I have to wonder if it's always entirely the publisher's fault.

[Althea]

Perhaps, but it seems to be a consistent thing with Obsidian. I can understand publishers shafting them (KOTOR2 being the biggest example) but given that they have a history of this I have to wonder if it's always entirely the publisher's fault.
Oh, of course not. Alpha Protocol they took a good portion of the blame for, but generally I think they're too ambitious. KotOR2 might have been better if they'd focused less on taking things in their own direction, but it might also have been better if LucasArts had, y'know, given them more than 18 months - and remember this is just when Obsidian formed, and they'd largely had no experience with the new BioWare engine. Or played KotOR. Or anything.

BioWare did seem to heavily borrow the castle upgrade aspect of NWN2 for DA:O-A, though.

[duff]

Why don't Bioware or Bethesda snap up some of their writers, because lets face it the one major thing those devs are missing is really good writers.

[Casimir Effect]

Perhaps, but it seems to be a consistent thing with Obsidian. I can understand publishers shafting them (KOTOR2 being the biggest example) but given that they have a history of this I have to wonder if it's always entirely the publisher's fault.
I imagine their fault is to be too ambitious with their games and not have a good sense of time-management. Trying to fit too much in to a game which uses someone elses engine.
How was their last release in terms of bugginess? I didn't hear anything bad about Dungeon Siege 3 except some control issues with the M+KB, and when previewing this game they talked about how it was their first in-house engine so would be more stable than anything they'd done before.

[Phantoon]

I think that should be clarified- Dragon Age 2 was just unwelcome.

Chris Avallone said "if FNV got an 85+ on Metacritic we'd get a bonus" which has turned into a rumor of Bethesda bribing for low review scores so they didn't have to pay the bonus. I generally don't care for crazy conspiracy theories, but wow it landed at 84.

What a kick to the groin, in any case.

Why don't Bioware or Bethesda snap up some of their writers, because lets face it the one major thing those devs are missing is really good writers.
I can hardly imagine anything worse than quality writers being siphoned away to write more about telling the shapeshifting dragon witch that you're hungry. Why was pants-on-head retarded a dialogue choice, Bioware? WHY DO YOU HURT ME SO!?

If you can't tell, I don't care for Bioware's writing. It's like they're fine until they need to make a sequel. Then it makes me sad and I have to rethink the time I'm spending on this.

[Althea]

Why don't Bioware or Bethesda snap up some of their writers, because lets face it the one major thing those devs are missing is really good writers.
Because Obsidian's writers aren't much better? Avellone has a lot of hang ups with writing, such as romances, and I don't think that would gel too well with BioWare.

BioWare need some good animators and modellers, too. I'd say more writers is the last thing they need.

[fiddlesticks]

For those looking for a more reputable source:
http://www.giantbomb.com/news/report-obsidian-hit-with-layoffs-unannounced-project-canceled/4033/
and
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/165776/Report_Obsidian_Entertainment_hit_by_another_round _of_layoffs.php

Long story short, they had to cancel a project they were working on, which resulted in quite a few layoffs. There's nothing indicating the entire company will shut down, though. It's a shame either way.

[Althea]

Oh, ouch, someone had been there just a few days.

[Battle Programmer Spike]

BioWare did seem to heavily borrow the castle upgrade aspect of NWN2 for DA:O-A, though.
That was already implemented back then in Baldur's Gate 2, although it was... simpler?



Perhaps, but it seems to be a consistent thing with Obsidian. I can understand publishers shafting them (KOTOR2 being the biggest example) but given that they have a history of this I have to wonder if it's always entirely the publisher's fault.
Generally speaking I think like Althea here, they tend to care a lot about the dialogues, choices and story that they usually go past the deadlines, so in a way it's their fault as well the publisher's.
Anyway my post was more oriented towards the support/patching issues once the game is released that you mentioned.



I'd buy alpha protocol or new vegas again tbut I'm not convinced that they are getting the money. Where is the tip jar?

Yeah, they won't be getting another dollar out of New Vegas as it was a straight payment (as most of their deals being a third-party contractor) with a promised bonus like someone else said some posts ago.
Alpha protocol on the other hand is their own IP, so they do get royalties out of it. It remains to be seen how much do they profit out of that, tho... I think Sega is getting the greatest cut of that pie.


Oh, ouch, someone had been there just a few days.
Lol, yeah. The project was going to get the definite OK this past monday, but seems like the last negotiations didn't go well enough with Microsoft.
A shame really, Obsidian was almost yelling at 'em how excited they were about working on that project.

[fiddlesticks]

Why don't Bioware or Bethesda snap up some of their writers, because lets face it the one major thing those devs are missing is really good writers.
The impression I got from some of the characters in Mass Effect 2 is that Bioware actually has a few good writers, but that the company is unwilling to take any risks when it comes to the story. Which is why all their games have the same general structure.

I guess I can't really blame them, considering they have been very successful with their risk-averse strategy, while Obsidian's games have never really enjoyed much public success (New Vegas being the obvious exception, but then a lot of people seem to think it was developed by Bethesda).

Still, Alpha Protocol was one of my favourite games of the past few years and New Vegas has been fantastic as well, so I rather hope Obsidian keeps on doing what they're doing. And of course, having to lay off a large part of your staff is tragic no matter what company it happens to.

[jnx]

a rumor of Bethesda bribing ... so they didn't have to pay the bonus.

Sounds legit.

[Unaco]

That's my biggest problem with Obsidian games. It's like Bohemia Interactive's ARMA series. They're great games encrusted with a shell of impenetrable bugs or weird issues that simply shouldn't exist. You leave them alone for ages until they're patched to a decent state, by which point the price has dropped anyway. And apparently support is too little, too late.

Errr... you realise Bohemia are STILL working on patches and fixes for ArmA2, right? Despite the fact that ArmA3 is nearly out. A lot of the new features and tech and code that is going into ArmA3 is being patched into ArmA2. And that the Devs are still taking suggestions and working with the community as to what features to bring into ArmA3 (Mumble API support ftw). Say what you will about Obsidian, but Bohemia are pretty f*cking good when it comes to support.

As for Obsidian. I've never enjoyed one of their games... so can't really say much about them.

[Drake Sigar]

BioWare did seem to heavily borrow the castle upgrade aspect of NWN2 for DA:O-A, though.
There was a castle management thing in BG2. So Obsidian took that idea and improved upon it, while Bioware took Obsidian's improved version and proceeded to shit all over it in DA: Awakening.

Obsidian aren't super original, since they primarily work on franchises established by other people. But every time they do, they end up making a better game than the actual creators did.

[Kandon Arc]

Alpha Protocol is BioWare wants to make when they say "cinematic RPG" (and, in fact, they tried to rip it off for Dragon Age 2, but failed miserably) and it introduced the "three choice method" used lately in BioWare's RPGs. Sadly unplayed because people.

I'm sorry but this is just plain wrong. ME was using the 'three choice method' years before AP. I wouldn't say AP copied ME but if DA2 was "ripping off" any game then that game was definitely ME2.


I think that should be clarified- Dragon Age 2 was just unwelcome.

Chris Avallone said "if FNV got an 85+ on Metacritic we'd get a bonus" which has turned into a rumor of Bethesda bribing for low review scores so they didn't have to pay the bonus. I generally don't care for crazy conspiracy theories, but wow it landed at 84.

What a kick to the groin, in any case.

I see this as more of another reason why metacritic is a terrible thing. Bethesda depressing review scores would hurt them more, as they're the ones who need it to sell.

[R-F]

OK, but I also didn't understand what you were trying to say. Dragon Age 2 was an Alpha Protocol rip-off? How? Alpha Protocol was cinematic? And Obsidian ripped off the "three choice method"?
Taking one element (timed attitude choices) from AP doesn't make DA2 a ripoff. That's like saying F.E.A.R is a ripoff of Max Payne because of slo mo. If anything I thought DA2 was an unwelcome ripoff of Mass Effect, if you can even call it that when both games belong to the same studio.

Also, Thorton beats Hawke & Shepard in a handicap match any day of the week. And I'm sick of having to look up how to spell Shepard every time I want to... do that.
DA2 had timed attitude choices? I'm failing to see any connection between it and AP.

It's a variety of elements, really:-
1. The framing mechanism is basically the same. In both, a main character (Thorton in AP, that dwarf guy in DA2) is being interrogated by a primary antagonist about the events of the game. It's the same set up, the same reveal of information throughout etc.
2. The dialogue during the framing mechanism works basically the same in both in ambiguity etc.
3. The three choices in dialogue came first in AP with suave, cool and angry and then in DA2 with humorous, diplomatic and angry. Suave in AP was basically taking the piss and cool was diplomatic.
4. In DA, you could only get bonuses by being friends with people. In AP, you could get bonuses through either rivalry or friendship, and both of them were usually equally good. This was then introduced in DA2.

That's pretty much it, really. The framing mechanism and a couple of key mechanics ripped off from AP.

DA was released in 2009, AP in 2010, DA2 in 2011.


I'm sorry but this is just plain wrong. ME was using the 'three choice method' years before AP. I wouldn't say AP copied ME but if DA2 was "ripping off" any game then that game was definitely ME2.

Except, no it doesn't.

[Kadayi]

Except, no it doesn't.

The dialogue wheel idea with 3 choices was in ME1 (you didn't always have to go paragon/renegade..it's only the stupid achievement slant that made people think that it was 2). Also DA2 would of been well under way in terms of the storyline and writing before DA:O was even out the door (the last year of DA:O would of been pretty much all technical and production work and far less writing, therefore those guys & girls would be working on DLC & DA2). Understand that projects start off small and overlap and that it's not a case that once a game ships everyone comes into the office on Monday and goes 'now what do we do for the sequel?'

[NathanH]

Anyway, video game advancement relies on someone coming up with a better way of doing something and then everyone else doing it too.

[Revisor]

What game and where can I buy to support Obsidian the most?
Also, start the Kickstarter already.

[Battle Programmer Spike]

What game and where can I buy to support Obsidian the most?
Also, start the Kickstarter already.

I'd say Alpha Protocol. That's the only game where they see any royalties incoming, as they own the IP afaik.

[Wizardry]

BioWare need some good animators and modellers, too. I'd say more writers is the last thing they need.
They need to hire some pen and paper RPG designers in my opinion. Obsidian too perhaps.

[SirKicksalot]

Sega owns the Alpha Protocol IP.

The project killed by Microsoft was in full development for 7 months for the next Xbox. I think J.E. Sawyer was the lead of this game and it was supposed to take place in a setting where the bad guys already won (think of LOTR if Sauron won).

A kickstarter won't help Obsidian as they're still a hundred people studio.

Also, fuck Quinns' New Vegas review.

[Drake Sigar]

Sega owns the Alpha Protocol IP.

Then start a new series called Beta Protocol with a main character called Tike Morton. Do I have to think of everything?

[fiddlesticks]

I'd buy that. But only if there is a mysterious character named Heven Steck somewhere in the game.

[sendmark]

I will be gutted if this is true, as seems the case. Great devs and I hope they all land on their feet.

[Dominic Tarason]

Okay, here's something to blow minds.

Fallout: NV sold a boatload. It barely helped Obsidian at all, as they were only paid the bare development costs. They would have made more, but the publisher said that they'd only get a bonus if the game got an 85% or higher Metacritic score.

It got 84%, despite being a far, far better RPG than Fallout 3 ever was. Less buggy/more stable, too.

Obsidian have the shittiest luck with publishers I've ever seen.

[soldant]

Errr... you realise Bohemia are STILL working on patches and fixes for ArmA2, right? Despite the fact that ArmA3 is nearly out. A lot of the new features and tech and code that is going into ArmA3 is being patched into ArmA2. And that the Devs are still taking suggestions and working with the community as to what features to bring into ArmA3 (Mumble API support ftw). Say what you will about Obsidian, but Bohemia are pretty f*cking good when it comes to support.
I am aware of that. I've been aware of that since Operation Flashpoint. That doesn't change the fact that they consistently need a significant number of patches to get the game into a playable state. All of them on release have been broken messes with weird frame rate drops, crashes, and scripting errors. I never said that BIS don't support their games but all of the ARMA series have been terrible on release. You'd have to be blind to think that they released a solid product on the release date.

I love the series. I've been playing it since the original OFP hit. But it's like they just push the product out the door without any proper testing, leaving it up to the community which they patch later. Most other devs get crucified for this, BIS get away with it. Take on Helicopters is the same. It's probably an engine issue.

[Kelron]

Most other devs get crucified for this, BIS get away with it.

I don't think that's true. Lots of the more unique and ambitious games are released in a buggy state (Stalker, Alpha Protocol, Arma), and it's essentially because they're trying to do more with less resources. They often gain significant followings despite the flaws, though sales will never reach the level of the biggest titles. Some people aren't prepared to look past the bugs, but I don't think you can say the devs are crucified.

[soldant]

I don't think that's true. Lots of the more unique and ambitious games are released in a buggy state (Stalker, Alpha Protocol, Arma), and it's essentially because they're trying to do more with less resources. They often gain significant followings despite the flaws, though sales will never reach the level of the biggest titles. Some people aren't prepared to look past the bugs, but I don't think you can say the devs are crucified.
Valve would be. id Software certainly was over Rage (even though it wasn't clear if it was their fault or AMD's fault for poor driver support). Bethesda sure are over Skyrim and Oblivion. The thing is that ARMA is a niche title so people are more forgiving because there isn't anything else like it. We tolerate it but still you'd think they'd at least improve somewhat since those early days. Yes, they don't have the resources of the major studios, but BIS aren't exactly an indie operation rubbing two sticks together in Unity.

[Nalano]

Okay, here's something to blow minds.

Fallout: NV sold a boatload. It barely helped Obsidian at all, as they were only paid the bare development costs. They would have made more, but the publisher said that they'd only get a bonus if the game got an 85% or higher Metacritic score.

It got 84%, despite being a far, far better RPG than Fallout 3 ever was. Less buggy/more stable, too.

Obsidian have the shittiest luck with publishers I've ever seen.

Bethesda are dicks.

[equatorian]

Obsidian's luck with publishers is like Project Zomboid all year long, all the years ever.

Also a lot of people seem to think they only know how to steal other people's IP and shit on them, which is a topic of ragey internet men.

EDIT : Kickstarter might be able to help, I think. It won't pay for their entire studio, but maybe it'll give them a new IP that might turn out to be a cult classic even if it has abysmal sales among the less hardcore RPG gamers. They can build on that. At this point I feel that if there's anything Obsidian REALLY needs to turn things around, it's an IP they actually own.

[Juan Carlo]

This is BS if true.

New Vegas was one of the best Action RPGs I've ever played. I put 103 hours into it and never got bored the whole time. And despite its reputation as "buggy," I don't think I encountered a single bug that whole time.

And I enjoyed the hell out of Alpha Protocol, despite the somewhat limited gameplay.

[Kandon Arc]

Bethesda are dicks.

There's nothing wrong with a performance based incentive structure. The problem is Metacritic's successful attempts to portray itself as a 'scientific' metric of quality.

[Nalano]

There's nothing wrong with a performance based incentive structure. The problem is Metacritic's successful attempts to portray itself as a 'scientific' metric of quality.

Bethesda are dicks.

[Gentleman Jim Stacey]

Kotor 2 would have been better than the original if Obsidian were allowed to finish it.

It's far fetched but if anyone's going to snatch up ex-Obsidian employees, I wish it to be CD Projekt.

[Wizardry]

Kotor 2 would have been better than the original if Obsidian were allowed to finish it.

It's far fetched but if anyone's going to snatch up ex-Obsidian employees, I wish it to be CD Projekt.
No thanks. The good ones should form their own studio and do Kickstarter exclusive cRPGs.

[Voon]

Sega owns the Alpha Protocol IP

Really? Because I'm fairly sure that Obsidian still owns it and royalties had been paid to them despite Sega, being the publisher, getting a huge cut from the sales of that game.


Then start a new series called Beta Protocol with a main character called Tike Morton. Do I have to think of everything?

Or in this case, like how they made Fallout a spiritual successor to Wasteland. Kickstarter, pl0x

[soldant]

There's nothing wrong with a performance based incentive structure. The problem is Metacritic's successful attempts to portray itself as a 'scientific' metric of quality.
You're right, there isn't. But when your application of it is so ridiculously rigid that people miss on a reward by one point then it's hardly a fair assessment. Game reviews can be averaged by using numbers, but when you treat the numbers in absolute terms (e.g. if (score > 84) then bonus = true; else bonus = false;) you ignore the fact that reviews aren't objective scientific measurements in the first place, and they can never be like that either.

The right thing to do was to say that if the game had a majority positive reviews, then they'd get the bonus. Metacritic lists 36 positive reviews, 3 mixed (one at 70, two at 65) and zero negative. Those three "mixed" reviews focus heavily on the bugs (which is fair enough, it's a valid criticism). How Bethesda can justify refusing to hand out a bonus in such a case is ridiculous. The game was clearly well received.

[TailSwallower]

It got 84%, despite being a far, far better RPG than Fallout 3 ever was. Less buggy/more stable, too.

This.

Fuck every reviewer who lauded Fallout 3 for it's story, characters and writing while ignoring the many, many issues brought about by the piece-of-shit engine and then crucified New Vegas for the engine issues while ignoring the fact that the writing, story and characters were better AND actually felt like a natural extension from the original games, unlike F3.

Personally I found NV on release more stable than Fallout 3 with all the DLC and updates... But no, according to reviewers Bethesda are a masterful RPG powerhouse, and Obsidian are the red-headed stepchild.

ETA: Let's hope Obsidian get a Kickstarter going either ASAP, or as soon as South Park ships.

[NathanH]

Not allowed to comment on writing if can't use apostrophe.

[TailSwallower]

Not allowed to comment on writing if can't use apostrophe.

Do you mean my usage of "Let's"? It's probably not right, but I think of it as a contraction of "let us". But anyway, feel free to ignore any valid point I might have raised due to one minor mistake. No point arguing with pedants on the internet.

[NathanH]

No, "let's" is quite right, nothing wrong there. It's not the internet's fault either; I am as much of a dick about this sort of thing IRL as I am online.

[soldant]

No, "let's" is quite right, nothing wrong there. It's not the internet's fault either; I am as much of a dick about this sort of thing IRL as I am online.
If he was making a point about being a Grammar Nazi, I'd endorse this comment. But he wasn't, he was making a point about the story in Fallout 3 v New Vegas. He might not have managed to distinguish between "its" and "it's", but that doesn't change the fact that his point is worth considering.

[NathanH]

He was making a point about the writing, actually. What "good writing" means is really anyone's guess, of course, which means it's a fairly worthless thing to say, so I can reply with a fairly worthless comment!

[deano2099]

Not allowed to comment on writing if can't use apostrophe.

That's not even a sentence.

[Winged Nazgul]

That's not even a sentence.

It is for people in glass houses.

[NathanH]

That's not even a sentence.

Am playing Obsidian game and have chosen 3 for Intelligence :-)

Alternatively, am able to distinguish between deliberate and accident.

Finally, omitting words fun. Liberating. Recommend try.

[Drake Sigar]

Am playing Obsidian game and have chosen 3 for Intelligence :-)

I have to try that someday.

[Kadayi]

Not allowed to comment on writing if can't use apostrophe.

You seem to be a Troll. Not a very good one either.

[Unaco]

I never said that BIS don't support their games but all of the ARMA series have been terrible on release. You'd have to be blind to think that they released a solid product on the release date.

And I never said you said that! Where did the state of the games at release come into this? Stop changing the subject. You complained that the support was too little, too late for ArmA games. I'm telling you it isn't... BiS are damn good with their support, bringing features and fixes from their new games into their old games, going to the community for suggestions and requests, still releasing fixes nearly 2 years after the game was released (how many other devs would be doing that?).

And not all of their games are broken messes out of the box... they need work, sure. But still fully playable... OA was pretty solid out of the box, as was Armed Assault (dunno about ArmA2 as I didn't follow its release, didn't pick it up til OA was out).

And what do you mean they leave it up to the community which they patch later? Yes, they work with the community, and even incorporate some of the mods that the community makes (especially for the VBS stuff, and they also use a lot of civilian contractors for making stuff for the military forces that use it). But they don't leave the patching up to the community... They do all of that themselves.

Sure, BiS games need work after release, and they get that. BiS take support and patching pretty seriously... it's far, far from being too little too late.

Edit: Just checked the ArmA2 update schedule. They released 3 patches within a fortnight of release. 4 within a month of release. They continued to patch it upto the release of OA, and beyond (I think there are updates still coming for it). Doesn't sound like the support was 'too little, too late' to me.

[Nalano]

Finally, omitting words fun. Liberating. Recommend try.

Whatever, Rorschach.


Those three "mixed" reviews focus heavily on the bugs (which is fair enough, it's a valid criticism).

It was Bethesda's fucking engine! Those were the same bugs that were in Fallout 3!

To add insult to injury!

[Moleman]

This is one of those thoughts that I should probably keep to myself but: am I the only one who kinda WANTS Obsidian to fall apart, at least in its current form?

I'd rather Avellone and company consciously retrench as a non-AAA studio and release shorter but more conceptually ambitious games in the manner that Double Fine did after Brutal Legend flopped, than slowly transform into the "RPG for hire" company (with the South Park RPG, it's going to have been 3 games since they did a original IP, and the only other work that seems to be upcoming is some sort of Wheel of Time RPG? If you told me ten years ago that the Planescape: Torment and Fallout guys were going to follow up their triumphant return to Fallout with three straight work for hire projects, one an action RPG in the Diablo vein and one a South Park spinoff, I'd have thought it was a sick joke).

It just always feels like the only reason Obsidian's trying to work at the AAA level is because they want to compete with Bioware and Bethesda, which, y'know, good for them, I guess? But they keep lurching from one financial semi-failure to the next. It's not like there isn't a market for shortish semi-indie games with interesting storytelling- Bastion sold really well, if I recall (although with a team of ~8 people).

[Nalano]

This is one of those thoughts that I should probably keep to myself but: am I the only one who kinda WANTS Obsidian to fall apart, at least in its current form?

Your suggestion reads like a collection of pi-in-the-sky wishful thinking.

[Moleman]

Your suggestion reads like a collection of pi-in-the-sky wishful thinking.

Well, yeah, but that's really all I've got left looking into Obsidian's coming output. Around the New Vegas/Alpha Protocol days, the worst I could say was that they were putting out flawed games that I still found interesting. Now, it's licensed product of the least interesting sort for the foreseeable future, even if they take those projects to completion. And losing something like this is probably the best time for them to retrench and get out of the AAA boom-and-bust business. I have no idea what is going through the heads of the Obsidian guys, but I can dream, y'know?

Plus, as an aside, is Tim Schafer secretly the games industry's most brilliant manager or what? His answer to "Our AAA game sold poorly, and the sequel's been cancelled" was "go all in on turning the prototypes we had folks make during downtime into commercial products." And it turned out to be largely correct? Impressive.

[Nalano]

Well, yeah, but that's really all I've got left looking into Obsidian's coming output. Around the New Vegas/Alpha Protocol days, the worst I could say was that they were putting out flawed games that I still found interesting. Now, it's licensed product of the least interesting sort for the foreseeable future, even if they take those projects to completion. And losing something like this is probably the best time for them to retrench and get out of the AAA boom-and-bust business. I have no idea what is going through the heads of the Obsidian guys, but I can dream, y'know?

Plus, as an aside, is Tim Schafer secretly the games industry's most brilliant manager or what? His answer to "Our AAA game sold poorly, and the sequel's been cancelled" was "go all in on turning the prototypes we had folks make during downtime into commercial products." And it turned out to be largely correct? Impressive.

You just went from "I'm with them all the way and want them in their purest form" to "I liked everything except their latest game, so fuck 'em."

[SirKicksalot]

Well, yeah, but that's really all I've got left looking into Obsidian's coming output. Around the New Vegas/Alpha Protocol days, the worst I could say was that they were putting out flawed games that I still found interesting. Now, it's licensed product of the least interesting sort for the foreseeable future, even if they take those projects to completion.

My theory about Dungeon Siege 3 is that everybody decided to hate it from the start.
A lot of people seem to defend Obisidian just because they hope their next game will be another Planescape...

[Kelron]

Valve would be. id Software certainly was over Rage (even though it wasn't clear if it was their fault or AMD's fault for poor driver support). Bethesda sure are over Skyrim and Oblivion. The thing is that ARMA is a niche title so people are more forgiving because there isn't anything else like it. We tolerate it but still you'd think they'd at least improve somewhat since those early days. Yes, they don't have the resources of the major studios, but BIS aren't exactly an indie operation rubbing two sticks together in Unity.

I'm not convinced Bethesda were any more "crucified" than BIS or Obsidian. Or that Skyrim was particularly buggy. As for Id, from a studio like that you expect a certain level of polish, and they also aren't particularly ambitious with their games. People forgive BIS because (as you say) there's nothing else like it, they're trying to do something different. When a major studio releases a game that doesn't push any boundaries and is buggy and unstable on top of that, it's not surprising people get angry.

As for why a studio like BIS continues to release games in a poor state, it's not something I can comment on with no idea about how they operate. Maybe they're badly managed, maybe they have the vision but not the talent to implement it smoothly (no insult meant to them, pure speculation). Even though they're relatively large, it doesn't mean they don't have financial issues. Pre-release testing is never going to find the problems as quickly as thousands of gamers will, and they've still got to pay the rest of their staff. Their core fanbase is going to buy their games on release anyway, and that brings some money in to fund continued development.

[Kadayi]

My theory about Dungeon Siege 3 is that everybody decided to hate it from the start.
A lot of people seem to defend Obisidian just because they hope their next game will be another Planescape...

I felt a bit sorry for Chris Avellone after he raised the issue of a kickstarter and pretty much all anyone wanted was 'Planescape: Torment 2', given that the IP belongs to WoTC not Obsidian.

[Moleman]

You just went from "I'm with them all the way and want them in their purest form" to "I liked everything except their latest game, so fuck 'em."

Well, a little- those aren't mutually exclusive thoughts, other than the "fuck 'em" and "I'm with them all the way" bits, which are, respectively, uncharitable and far too charitable reads. They'd talked about an original IP game that they were pitching around, and that was probably the project that just got cancelled. Outside of that mystery project, though... it's a whole lot of things that they were hopefully doing just to keep the lights on, isn't it? Either that, or they're passionately "The South Park RPG" guys now? I suppose that'd be okay- it's their company, after all, but gives me the same sort of depressed feeling when I see Brian Reynolds shilling for some Zynga product- I know they're capable of a lot more than that, and if there'd ever be a time to hope that someone there says "okay, back to basics," it'd be now.

Edit: Because that was a lot of text for very little thought:

Yep, Nalano: "I liked everything but their latest game, and I want them in their purest form" is actually a pretty damn good summation of my position on Obsidian these days.

I'm just not too optimistic that they want to be their purest form, anymore.

[archonsod]

My theory about Dungeon Siege 3 is that everybody decided to hate it from the start.
A lot of people seem to defend Obisidian just because they hope their next game will be another Planescape...

The problem with it was that the genre doesn't really fit with Obsidian's strengths, which is what bites them in the arse. In any Diablo clone it's the combat you need to concentrate on rather than the writing; traditionally Obsidian tend to be good writers but mediocre when it comes to the actual games.
And much as I liked Torment, I'd much rather see a sequel to Alpha Protocol than another Planescape.

[SirKicksalot]

I found DS3's combat fun and - most importantly - the attacks have weight and pack a punch... Unlike, say, Titan Quest's. I'm playing it with a controller as the fire lady and it's really good. The loot ain't Diablo but certainly keeps me ticking, plus it looks very good and has an interesting story.
The problem seems to be one of expectations. This is not a braindead loot hunt. It's more like Jade Empire with an isometric perspective and better RPG elements.
It sold 800k copies IIRC. However this is certainly a mid-tier game. Perhaps when the next generation of consoles arrive, not all games will launch at full price...

[Althea]

It was Bethesda's fucking engine! Those were the same bugs that were in Fallout 3!

It was Bethesda's engine as much as Unreal Engine 3 is BioWare's engine.

[orcane]

Not at all. The script engine is very much Bethesda's creation and never fails to bug out since at least Oblivion, and always.

[Althea]

Oblivion, FO3 and New Vegas are all on Gamebryo, which is not a Bethesda engine.

However, Bethesda did take a woodcutter's axe to it, and then proceeded to urinate on the open wounds they created.

[Mistabashi]

Gamebryo isn't really a fully-functional engine like Unreal Engine 3, it's best described as "middleware", which is to say it's more a toolkit of ready-made libraries and tools that you can form into your own engine.

Civ IV was made with Gamebryo, as was everything else on this list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamebryo#Games_Using_Gamebryo_and_LightSpeed). The fact that Bethesda's games based on Gamebryo are buggy as shite is entirely Bethesda's fault.

[Battle Programmer Spike]

Oblivion, FO3 and New Vegas are all on Gamebryo, which is not a Bethesda engine.

However, Bethesda did take a woodcutter's axe to it, and then proceeded to urinate on the open wounds they created.

For the last time: Gamebryo is only the RENDERING engine, people. Bethesda uses a bunch of other tools compiled into a toolset/engine of their own which included for Oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas the same iteration of the gamebryo engine for graphics rendering.
So in the end: YES, it is their own engine/tool. The same goes for bioware... sure, they used Unreal Engine 3 modified and adapted to suit their needs and their own tools. They are ultimately responsible of those modifications and the bugs on their codes. Specially when most of the game is scripts, and other things 100% custom made under their own systems.
Obsidian using a custom made engine toolset by Bethesda is by no means the same as Bethesda tailoring/programming said custom engine toolset. Bethesda had the knowledge on every detail and the capabilites to modify said toolset, Obsidian didn't have the neither time nor access to do so, not to mention fixing it.


edit: Mitabashi beat me to it

[Kelron]

My theory about Dungeon Siege 3 is that everybody decided to hate it from the start.
A lot of people seem to defend Obisidian just because they hope their next game will be another Planescape...

As great as PS:T is, I agree that we shouldn't be judging Obsidian now on a game some of them made over 10 years ago (and I know I'm guilty of this sometimes). But aside from Dungeon Siege 3, I still consider their output as Obsidian to be excellent, and it will take more than one mediocre game to make me stop supporting them.

[soldant]

It was Bethesda's fucking engine! Those were the same bugs that were in Fallout 3! To add insult to injury!
Broken quests were Bethesda's fault?


And I never said you said that! Where did the state of the games at release come into this? Stop changing the subject. You complained that the support was too little, too late for ArmA games.
Actually I was commenting on Obsidian, but I can see where the confusion comes out. Buying the game a few years after release doesn't really excite the publisher. It's one of the reasons why I laugh at people saying that they "supported" FSX by buying the Gold pack many years later for $20 and then spending a fortune on 3rd party content that doesn't pay a dime to Microsoft.


And not all of their games are broken messes out of the box... they need work, sure. But still fully playable... OA was pretty solid out of the box, as was Armed Assault (dunno about ArmA2 as I didn't follow its release, didn't pick it up til OA was out).
Absolute crap. ARMA was abysmal on release. The campaign was broken, framerates were in the single digits even on high-end hardware of the time, it had a huge memory leak... man, need I go on? ARMA2 was the same. OA was less buggy than ARMA2 because it was essentially an upgrade to ARMA2, I'd damn well expect that it'd be better than ARMA2 on release. And yet it still came out with bugs. You might as well say that PMC was bug-free. I don't have to do anything except point to the patch notes to show that every game in the series was severely bugged on release. Take on Helicopters was probably the most solid release yet, though it suffered from the severe performance issues like all the others.


And what do you mean they leave it up to the community which they patch later?
The community effectively hunts for most of the bugs that should have been caught pre-release. Ever notice how they do a staggered release with a European release first, and then a more global release afterwards? You've already got a patch or two prior to the global release, and it's still got significant bugs.

Don't get me wrong, I love the series. I've been a fan of it since OFP. But every single game has a terrible release period. Also the engine itself is ridiculously heavy on system requirements, particularly when it comes to graphical fidelity. It's like trying to play a flight sim, except here a smooth frame rate is essential while in a flight sim it's less important. BIS would do a lot better to undertake some work to improve the performance of the engine and then work on delivering the rest of the game.


Edit: Just checked the ArmA2 update schedule. They released 3 patches within a fortnight of release. 4 within a month of release. They continued to patch it upto the release of OA, and beyond (I think there are updates still coming for it). Doesn't sound like the support was 'too little, too late' to me.
Again I was referring to Obsidian and cases where people purchase something long after the game's release. Such support is ultimately a bit too late from the perspective of the publisher. I wasn't commenting about BIS.

[Icarus]

This may just be baiting all the trolls ever, but...

Am I the only one who saw that 84 Metacritic average and thought 'wow, I guess Quinns' FNV review actually killed Obsidian'?

[Kaira-]

Am I the only one who saw that 84 Metacritic average and thought 'wow, I guess Quinns' FNV review actually killed Obsidian'?

Poor Quinns is going to hear about that review for a very, very long time.

[Lukasz]

they are not really closing are they? just fired a bunch of people from a cancelled project right?

[Battle Programmer Spike]

Yeah, they aren't really closing... for now. It's just that their financial situation isn't the best and every cancelled project/layoffs is kinda foreboding.

[Kelron]

This may just be baiting all the trolls ever, but...

Am I the only one who saw that 84 Metacritic average and thought 'wow, I guess Quinns' FNV review actually killed Obsidian'?

RPS don't score their reviews and aren't counted on metacritic. And apparently New Vegas sold better than Fallout 3, but who knows how much money Obsidian saw of that.

[Tei]

RPS don't score their reviews and aren't counted on metacritic. And apparently New Vegas sold better than Fallout 3, but who knows how much money Obsidian saw of that.

The minimal. Got paid to create the game. Failed to have a 95 in metacritic that would have given then a bonus.


And this is really the problem of Obsidian. Live making games that other people want to make, are permanently "for hire". And probably most gamers don't know or have a good opinion of Obsidian based on bugs on obsidian games, and obsidian not having a huge brand game behind ( fallout new vegas don't count, because these gamers don't know is made by obsidian).

[BillButNotBen]

RPS don't score their reviews and aren't counted on metacritic. And apparently New Vegas sold better than Fallout 3, but who knows how much money Obsidian saw of that.

However much their fee was, but no more.