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HP Craftwerk
20-03-2012, 06:20 AM
Even the Collectors Edition, they are putting their money where their (100% customer satisfaction) mouth is, good for them. Kinda makes me wish I got mine from them.. I will in the future.

Voon
20-03-2012, 06:24 AM
wow. are people really that angry over a video game ending? come on

BrothaBear
20-03-2012, 06:26 AM
oh my god lol I have Never seen a retailer do that. Least not while offer a Full refund, usually some sort of rebate or coupon that can only be used in their stores. I mean EA might do it, I remeber the fiasco with APB. Some went about the route of raising hell to get their money back. And don't even get me started on what happens if a steam-game tanks.. kiss that cash goodbye

random_guy
20-03-2012, 06:46 AM
And don't even get me started on what happens if a steam-game tanks.. kiss that cash goodbye I heard talk of Steam giving out a couple of refunds for Duke Nukem Forever.

HP Craftwerk
20-03-2012, 06:53 AM
Steam gave me a refund for the Doom Collection when half the games wouldnt start, took about a week and had to send in screenshots some system info... but no hassle really

soldant
20-03-2012, 07:15 AM
Steam gave me a refund for the Doom Collection when half the games wouldnt start, took about a week and had to send in screenshots some system info... but no hassle really
That's a bit different from "This was great right up until the ending MAN IT SUCKED BIOWARE KILLED MY MOTHER I mean my Shepard."

HP Craftwerk
20-03-2012, 07:20 AM
I was just responding to whoever said Steam kisses your cash goodbye. Im keeping my ME3, Im still holding out to see what they do

Nalano
20-03-2012, 07:23 AM
Oh for fuck's sake. Now this is just embarrassing. Can I declare that I refuse to be associated with these people?

Oshada
20-03-2012, 07:23 AM
This is insane! I mean the rest of the game is excellent, it would be tantamount to piracy to get a full refund after finishing it.

ezekiel2517
20-03-2012, 07:50 AM
Oh for fuck's sake. Now this is just embarrassing. Can I declare that I refuse to be associated with these people?

Not before we do the same.

b0rsuk
20-03-2012, 07:59 AM
A lot of people are frustrated about Mass Effect 3. They want to return it. They do.

What's the problem ?

BrothaBear
20-03-2012, 08:15 AM
A lot of people are frustrated about Mass Effect 3. They want to return it. They do.

What's the problem ?

Erm, making a game that was so frustrating and disappointing it causes mass migration in games. When an environmental disaster happens, first thing companies do is make sure no one....I mean no one is on record saying "sorry,or mybad". Theres a reason for it.



Me? I don't like Masseffect, never have. Too many "pew-pew" lasers , not enough beefy weaponry and extremely linear within actual gameplay. Yet I don't go off on a tizzy about it, I knew i would never like it so I never bought it. I feel that decision had it's own rewards.

I mean there were complaints about the game before it even hit the shelves, yet people lined up to give their money, and when the next masseffect is made(some corny play on the I.P im sure) Same people you see complain about it, will probably be the first in line for the next. This is why we ended up with ODST

If you don't like it, hit em where it hurts...their wallets.

BobsLawnService
20-03-2012, 08:26 AM
While I think that the Mass Effect games are criminally over-rated allowing a full refund is just silly.

Lukasz
20-03-2012, 08:27 AM
So the ending features death of shepard? the fuck is that really?


they ask us to keep our saves ergo the character for five years or so only to kill him/her, probably in a very cheap way? I would be pissed too. Haven't they learned anything from Beth's shitty Fallout 3 ending?

good for amazon and its customers.

R-F
20-03-2012, 08:29 AM
ITT: People pissed off about a company upholding it's customer's statutory rights.

What the fuck is with the gaming community's mindset, really?

soldant
20-03-2012, 08:45 AM
they ask us to keep our saves ergo the character for five years or so only to kill him/her, probably in a very cheap way? I would be pissed too. Haven't they learned anything from Beth's shitty Fallout 3 ending?
So what you're saying is that developers should never kill off player characters?


good for amazon and its customers.
Why? By all accounts the rest of the game is great. Everybody seems to really enjoy it right up until the very last minute or so when the weird plot shit turns up. How is it justifiable to give a full refund just because people don't like the very end of the game?

You know what? I didn't like how HL2: Ep2 ended. Where's my friggin' refund?


EDIT:


ITT: People pissed off about a company upholding it's customer's statutory rights.
Citation needed I'm unaware of a person's right to return a game because they're not happy with the ending. You'd better provide some legislation to prove that and an instance of where it was successfully applied in such a case.

Nalano
20-03-2012, 08:49 AM
ITT: People pissed off about a company upholding it's customer's statutory rights.

What the fuck is with the gaming community's mindset, really?

That movie sucked. I want my money back. Oh, wait, I sat through the movie so they're not giving me a refund?

Well how about that.

c-Row
20-03-2012, 08:50 AM
I bought some books which had endings I didn't like - where's my refund? The last track on the latest album I bought was a let-down - where's my refund? Strategy Game X says I will be the supreme leader of the galaxy, but I suck at it and I never win, so they made a false promise - where's my refund?


Come on... getting your money back because the game doesn't work is one thing, but asking for a refund just because you didn't like 5 minutes of an otherwise entertaining experience just makes you look stupid.

Vexing Vision
20-03-2012, 08:52 AM
When Settlers V came out and included a new Securom protection that was incompatible with many existing CD/DVD-drives back then, most retailers did offer a full refund.

Thus started the UbiSoft-Wars, back in the days.

Vandelay
20-03-2012, 09:27 AM
Can we hide the spoilers please. Some of us (probably most) have not played or bought ME3 yet and would rather not have the ending ruined... no matter how obvious it is.

b0rsuk
20-03-2012, 09:27 AM
So what you're saying is that developers should never kill off player characters?


Who is a game for, ultimately ? Most games are made for players to enjoy. One notable exception is Dwarf Fortress, which is made for the creator to enjoy.


That movie sucked. I want my money back. Oh, wait, I sat through the movie so they're not giving me a refund?

Well how about that.

That game sucked. I want to return the retail package, so that the shop can sell it back to another person and profit. How about that.

Movie tickets are torn.

------------

I think customers (should) have every right to return a product they're not satisfied with, as long as it can be reused. Many people are deeply dissatisfied with Mass Effect 3.

Books, movies(depends on medium) are a good example of a consumable product. After use, it's pretty much consumed and you don't care to read/see it another time. Games, at least in theory, are reusable, replayable. Very true for board games at least. Some people, for reasons that I can't comprehend, call Mass Effect 3 a game and not a movie. Then Amazon treats it like a game (because of their ignorance?).

R-F
20-03-2012, 09:31 AM
That movie sucked. I want my money back. Oh, wait, I sat through the movie so they're not giving me a refund?

Well how about that.

Try it, you might be able to get a refund.

Hell, you probably would, especially if you kicked up a fuss about it.


Citation needed I'm unaware of a person's right to return a game because they're not happy with the ending. You'd better provide some legislation to prove that and an instance of where it was successfully applied in such a case.

What Are My Statutory Rights? (http://whatconsumer.co.uk/what-are-my-statutory-rights/)


You often see signs in shops at the counter which say ‘this does not affect your statutory rights’. But what does this mean? What we are talking about here are the legal obligations of retailers and suppliers to protect consumers from fraud, poor quality, misrepresentation or economic loss. The sale of goods is subject to the inclusion of these statutory rights (or terms), whether or not a written contract exists and whether or not they are specifically mentioned at any stage. Any attempt to mislead you or deny you of them is illegal! The seller has the right to sell So what precisely are your statutory rights when you make a purchase? Firstly, you should expect the seller to have the right to sell the item and to be able to transfer full ownership to you. Seems an obvious point really. A second hand car dealer who sells you a stolen car does not have the right to sell that car and you would not take ownership of it, even though you have handed over the money. If the item is not owned by the seller, or the seller has not been given permission to sell the item, the contract is immediately invalidated – and you will own nothing.

It is what you expected? Secondly, if you have bought something on the basis of the seller’s description or a sample, you should expect the item to conform exactly to that description or sample. If it does not, you have the right to reject the goods, demand a full refund and possibly claim damages. This is still the case even where you have selected or examined the items for yourself before buying them.

Easily claimable that misrepresentation in advertising has lead to an issue.



I bought some books which had endings I didn't like - where's my refund? The last track on the latest album I bought was a let-down - where's my refund? Strategy Game X says I will be the supreme leader of the galaxy, but I suck at it and I never win, so they made a false promise - where's my refund?

Come on... getting your money back because the game doesn't work is one thing, but asking for a refund just because you didn't like 5 minutes of an otherwise entertaining experience just makes you look stupid.

Stop trying to ruin customer rights, for fuck's sake. Just be glad they're there and stop complaining.

Lukasz
20-03-2012, 09:36 AM
So what you're saying is that developers should never kill off player characters?
no. never said that.



Why? By all accounts the rest of the game is great. Everybody seems to really enjoy it right up until the very last minute or so when the weird plot shit turns up. How is it justifiable to give a full refund just because people don't like the very end of the game?

so?
customers were not happy about the game. and they got their money back. good for them. simple like that.


You know what? I didn't like how HL2: Ep2 ended. Where's my friggin' refund?

have you tried to get it 5 years ago?

soldant
20-03-2012, 09:46 AM
One notable exception is Dwarf Fortress, which is made for the creator to enjoy.
Hahaha, nice one!


Easily claimable that misrepresentation in advertising has lead to an issue.
You haven't demonstrated this at all. Perhaps you haven't heard that "mere puffery doesn't constitute a promise", (e.g. Carlill v Carbolic Smoke Ball Company [1892], an example where something isn't mere puff but gives the general concept) hence someone advertising shampoo saying that if you use it your hair will be like Celebrity A is not liable for breaking a contract if you use it and your hair doesn't look like that. Bioware don't make promises that you'll love every second of the game. There is no false advertising. There is no false description. There is no misrepresentation. You have no case. You haven't demonstrated how any of that applies to this situation. There is no breach of contract.

What you have quoted refers to an instance where someone has said that a product will do something which is taken as a guarantee when it does not. If I say to you "If you buy this car, it will definitely tow a battleship", you purchase it and the car doesn't do that, I have misrepresented the product and you are entitled to your refund (or legal action if I'm a dick and refuse). Australian consumer law (like a lot of our laws, especially common law where we share a common heritage) is very similar to UK law, so don't go on about regional differences.


Stop trying to ruin customer rights, for fuck's sake. Just be glad they're there and stop complaining.
There is no consumer right here. "No sir, I don't like it, give me a refund" is not a consumer right.

NathanH
20-03-2012, 09:48 AM
This is rather silly really. To be honest, most video games have nonsense endings, we'd be swimming in refunds.

Still, if I'm lucky this means the game will be discounted soon...

R-F
20-03-2012, 09:48 AM
You haven't demonstrated this at all. Perhaps you haven't heard that "mere puffery doesn't constitute a promise", (e.g. Carlill v Carbolic Smoke Ball Company [1892], an example where something isn't mere puff but gives the general concept) hence someone advertising shampoo saying that if you use it your hair will be like Celebrity A is not liable for breaking a contract if you use it and your hair doesn't look like that. Bioware don't make promises that you'll love every second of the game. There is no false advertising. There is no false description. There is no misrepresentation. You have no case. You haven't demonstrated how any of that applies to this situation. There is no breach of contract.

What you have quoted refers to an instance where someone has said that a product will do something which is taken as a guarantee when it does not. If I say to you "If you buy this car, it will definitely tow a battleship", you purchase it and the car doesn't do that, I have misrepresented the product and you are entitled to your refund (or legal action if I'm a dick and refuse). Australian consumer law (like a lot of our laws, especially common law where we share a common heritage) is very similar to UK law, so don't go on about regional differences.

"The game has an unbelievable amount of endings."

Results in...

3?

Ultimately, the source you want as proof is the fact that Amazon is offering a refund. That is all.

soldant
20-03-2012, 09:53 AM
"The game has an unbelievable amount of endings." Results in... 3?
That constitutes mere puff.


Ultimately, the source you want as proof is the fact that Amazon is offering a refund. That is all.
A shop offering a refund does not constitute a legal right to a refund. A shop can give you a refund as a gesture of good will without legal requirement, but it does not mean you were legally entitled to it in the first place.

renhoelder
20-03-2012, 09:59 AM
Refunds only for console versions of the game or PC aswell? Like they remove the game from your Origin library once you´ve already played it?

c-Row
20-03-2012, 10:01 AM
Stop trying to ruin customer rights, for fuck's sake. Just be glad they're there and stop complaining.

I don't complain about customer rights, I complain about customers who act like spoilt children because they didn't get the ME3 ending they wanted.

Nalano
20-03-2012, 10:05 AM
That game sucked. I want to return the retail package, so that the shop can sell it back to another person and profit. How about that.

Congratulations, you just played a game for free. One could imagine why they wouldn't offer you that option.

R-F
20-03-2012, 10:07 AM
That constitutes mere puff.

A shop offering a refund does not constitute a legal right to a refund. A shop can give you a refund as a gesture of good will without legal requirement, but it does not mean you were legally entitled to it in the first place.

Evidence of that, please. :)

True, but it sets a precedent.

frightlever
20-03-2012, 10:09 AM
Aren't Amazon great for letting you return stuff anyway? So long as you do it within a certain time-frame don't they pretty much take anything back? They have their own factory outlet for returned goods.

EDIT: this could just be over-zealous customer support people, and not official policy. I had a shipment go missing from Amazon and they sent me out a replacement order FOC. Then the original package made it's way back to Amazon so they credited me for it and the carriage, except as a Prime subscriber I hadn't paid carriage, so if I wasn't so damn honest I would have had my original goods for nothing and about eight quid profit on the carriage.

Shane
20-03-2012, 10:30 AM
...I sat through the movie...

What makes you say that?

Edit: Point being, there are a lot of people who think the game outright sucks and didn't deign to slog through it.

soldant
20-03-2012, 11:11 AM
Evidence of that, please. :)

True, but it sets a precedent.
Your own consumer law, and I've already given you a case that covers mere puff. Generally the test is whether a reasonable person in the position of the offeree would interpret the advertisement. A reasonable person (which apparently doesn't include you) would clearly see that such claims are just mere puff.

And no, it doesn't set a precedent, at least legally, because the store is not legally compelled to do so. They're doing it as a gesture of goodwill, they can turn around and tell you to get stuffed at any time without penalty.

R-F
20-03-2012, 11:21 AM
Your own consumer law, and I've already given you a case that covers mere puff. Generally the test is whether a reasonable person in the position of the offeree would interpret the advertisement. A reasonable person (which apparently doesn't include you) would clearly see that such claims are just mere puff.

And no, it doesn't set a precedent, at least legally, because the store is not legally compelled to do so. They're doing it as a gesture of goodwill, they can turn around and tell you to get stuffed at any time without penalty.

Ah, the reasonable person is you, of course.

And you can claim that they've offered the refund in the same situation for another product. So, no, they can't.

Drake Sigar
20-03-2012, 11:23 AM
Easily claimable that misrepresentation in advertising has lead to an issue.
There must be a dozen quotes in circulation from Bioware members making it explicitly clear the endings will not be a three-way instant button choice like Deus Ex, won't leave more questions than answers, and will wrap everything up. In fact looking back, they may have promised far more than was possible to deliver.

Zephro
20-03-2012, 11:26 AM
Oh for fuck's sake. Now this is just embarrassing. Can I declare that I refuse to be associated with these people?

This. You paid for something, it provided X hours of entertainment as it said on the tin. What's the world coming to these days.

soldant
20-03-2012, 11:30 AM
And you can claim that they've offered the refund in the same situation for another product. So, no, they can't.
No, you can't. There's no legal requirement for them to do so. If they give you a refund outside of the requirements of the law, that's their choice. There's nothing compelling them to do so.

Fiyenyaa
20-03-2012, 11:33 AM
At this point, I think that anything that makes EA/Bioware sit up and say "man, we screwed up" is a good thing.

Maybe it's an over the top reaction - but to those of us who invested so much in the Mass Effect universe, we got an ending at odds with what was promised. And this isn't to say "hey, Shepherd died! People died! Worst ending ever!" (although I will say that given ME2 had it's endings run the full gamut of "everyone dies" to "everyone lives", it seems insane that there's not even an option for a happy ending of sorts) - it's saying the ending makes no sense on any level, re-uses assets, doesn't substantively reflect choices made in the rest of the game, and is directly at odds with what the guys and gals at Bioware were saying before the game came out.

Vexing Vision
20-03-2012, 11:40 AM
At this point, I think that anything that makes EA/Bioware sit up and say "man, we screwed up" is a good thing.

On the other hand, anything that makes ME want to stand up and defend EA/Bioware (I think I'm the only one left boycotting Origin) is a bad thing and makes me want to buy the game to support their choice of storytelling.

It's a lose/lose!

Tritagonist
20-03-2012, 11:42 AM
I'n not surprised by this, in my experience Amazon has always been great about returning items. Customer support generally, actually, has been nothing but helpful in my past dealings with them. A full refund for these kinds of items is a little bit weird, though, for reasons mentioned above. Still, I like it. Over the years there's been a couple of games I wish I'd been able to return (not ME3). Perhaps I'll consider Amazon next time.

Althea
20-03-2012, 12:32 PM
Jeez, can we stop with the damn spoilers, please?

Namdrol
20-03-2012, 12:52 PM
My mind is blown. Consumers being upset that a company has a 100% satisfaction guarantee, and is living up to that promise? Are these people part of some pro-corporate, anti-consumer cult? Yeah, OK argue about whether a company should be FORCED to take a product back, but arguing over whether it is a good thing if a company CHOOSES to take back a product some people are extremely dissatisfied with, FOR WHATEVER reason? Unbelievable.

PS sorry for the caps, but damn this is fucked up.

Edit: and I have gotten free passes to shit movies before from the theater without trouble, sure not a refund but good enough. And Amazon, by in large, is the best pro-consumer company on the planet. Their whole schtick is giving consmumers the best services they can. [full disclosure, Amazon stock has made me a fuckton of money since 2002, so I really like the ccompany].

c-Row
20-03-2012, 12:59 PM
Yeah, OK argue about whether a company should be FORCED to take a product back, but arguing over whether it is a good thing if a company CHOOSES to take back a product some people are extremely dissatisfied with, FOR WHATEVER reason? Unbelievable.

The problem is that in this particular case the reason is complete BS. It's like asking for a refund because one of your favourite characters in a novel dies. It's in the DAMN STORY! No one would argue about this if the game itself was broken or didn't include a feature as advertised, but as far as I know, "Happy happy joy joy ending everybody's gonna shit rainbows about" wasn't part of any PR. It's great for the customers in general that Amazon still offers a refund despite all this, no question.

Althea
20-03-2012, 01:18 PM
Consumers being upset that a company has a 100% satisfaction guarantee
Um... what are you talking about? BioWare have far from a 100% satisfaction "guarantee".

Alex Bakke
20-03-2012, 01:22 PM
Um... what are you talking about? BioWare have far from a 100% satisfaction "guarantee".

He is talking about Amazon - the company that's handling the returns. Bioware will not profit or lose anything from this, as the stock has already entered Amazon's warehouse.

Theblazeuk
20-03-2012, 01:55 PM
That movie sucked. I want my money back. Oh, wait, I sat through the movie so they're not giving me a refund?

Well how about that.

This does happen.

Cinema's have given money back for The Artist not being sufficiently clear about being a black and white silent movie, which is just a recent example. There was even a sign in the window of the cinema I went to.

c-Row
20-03-2012, 02:00 PM
This does happen.

Cinema's have given money back for The Artist not being sufficiently clear about being a black and white silent movie, which is just a recent example. There was even a sign in the window of the cinema I went to.

"Now in cinemas: The Never Ending Story"



Please not that contrary to the movie's title, it ends at some point. We are terribly sorry about this.

Kandon Arc
20-03-2012, 02:02 PM
The problem is that in this particular case the reason is complete BS. It's like asking for a refund because one of your favourite characters in a novel dies. It's in the DAMN STORY! No one would argue about this if the game itself was broken or didn't include a feature as advertised, but as far as I know, "Happy happy joy joy ending everybody's gonna shit rainbows about" wasn't part of any PR. It's great for the customers in general that Amazon still offers a refund despite all this, no question.

It was advertised explicitly as not having an A, B or C ending. It had an A, B or C ending. Of course whether anyone would have not bought it had they known the problems of the ending beforehand is a much harder question.

Kadayi
20-03-2012, 02:07 PM
All I've seen is a guy 'claim' that he got a refund.

deano2099
20-03-2012, 02:10 PM
All I've seen is a guy 'claim' that he got a refund.

Yeah, this is a non-story. Amazon will pretty much refund you anything if you return it within 30 days for any reason as long as you don't take the mick. They're not refunding because it's ME3, they're refunding because the guy has bought a bunch of stuff from them in the past and this is the first time he's asked for a refund. If he tries it again next week, it won't happen.

Fiyenyaa
20-03-2012, 02:11 PM
"Now in cinemas: The Never Ending Story"



Please not that contrary to the movie's title, it ends at some point. We are terribly sorry about this.

Mass Effect 3 does not have a subtitle reading "Has an ending that makes no sense and is incongruous with the setting and the story-arc".

c-Row
20-03-2012, 02:27 PM
Mass Effect 3 does not have a subtitle reading "Has an ending that makes no sense and is incongruous with the setting and the story-arc".

Like I already said, nor has it a "Happy happy joy joy ending everybody's gonna shit rainbows about" subtitle.

Kadayi
20-03-2012, 02:30 PM
Yeah, this is a non-story. Amazon will pretty much refund you anything if you return it within 30 days for any reason as long as you don't take the mick. They're not refunding because it's ME3, they're refunding because the guy has bought a bunch of stuff from them in the past and this is the first time he's asked for a refund. If he tries it again next week, it won't happen.

Indeed, it has nothing to do with Amazon deciding a refund on a larger scale is somehow owing, or that the copies needed to recalled due to deficiencies. Another case of the internets jumping to a conclusion and people being gullible enough to take it as a given without question (same shit with the guy claiming Valve were offering refunds on From Dust, and then just providing a link to Steam support...).

Zephro
20-03-2012, 03:06 PM
Aren't people more groaning (or face palming) with the fact that other people seem to feel justified in demanding their money back because they don't like an ending?

Vexing Vision
20-03-2012, 03:11 PM
Aren't people more groaning (or face palming) with the fact that other people seem to feel justified in demanding their money back because they don't like an ending?

Quite a few.

But this is fascinating.

Kandon Arc
20-03-2012, 03:11 PM
Like I already said, nor has it a "Happy happy joy joy ending everybody's gonna shit rainbows about" subtitle.

It does, however have a "not an A, B or C ending" subtitle.

c-Row
20-03-2012, 03:11 PM
Aren't people more groaning (or face palming) with the fact that other people seem to feel justified in demanding their money back because they don't like an ending?

Indeed. Human physiology unfortunately doesn't let me palm as many faces simultaneously over it as I would like to.



It does, however have a "not an A, B or C ending" subtitle.

So you are presented with all seven possible endings to choose from with the pressing of a button like you were in DX:HR? I don't think so.

Zephro
20-03-2012, 03:19 PM
Maybe the back of the box should have a full synopsis covering all major plot twists and surprises to avoid this in future?

Fiyenyaa
20-03-2012, 04:18 PM
Like I already said, nor has it a "Happy happy joy joy ending everybody's gonna shit rainbows about" subtitle.

What it does have, moving away from the whole subtitle thing, is the precedent from Mass Effect 2, where the endings depend upon your actions throughout the entire game rather than boiling down to "pick one with minimal input from what you actually did the past 30 hours", and also run through the spectrum of "everyone dies" to "everyone lives".

Smashbox
20-03-2012, 04:36 PM
It's like finishing your slice of pie and refusing to pay because you didn't like the last bite. Silly.


SPOILERSo the ending features death of shepard? the fuck is that really?



That was a grisly spoiler and now I'm actually pretty pissed.

Drake Sigar
20-03-2012, 04:54 PM
It's like finishing your slice of pie and refusing to pay because you didn't like the last bite. Silly.


I saw someone use a similar analogy not 1 hour ago (freaky!), except with a few minor alterations. "It's like eating the last bite of a delicious meat pie only to find someone hollowed that part out and poked a bit of dog turd in." The entire offending unpleasantness came right at the end and was unavoidable. This isn't a case of someone taking a few bites, finding the pie revolting, and then continuing to shovel it in anyway just because. Why are there all these assumptions going round that people (or at least ME3 haters) are so stubborn that they will continue to gobble mouthful after mouthful of something they hate? I assure you such people are rare.

And insane.

Smashbox
20-03-2012, 04:59 PM
Yours is more evocative, I'll admit.

Kandon Arc
20-03-2012, 05:12 PM
So you are presented with all seven possible endings to choose from with the pressing of a button like you were in DX:HR? I don't think so.

Well there are technically 16 variants, but it is a presented as a choice between 3 options, just like DX:HR.

NathanH
20-03-2012, 06:14 PM
To be fair, if the last bite of my delicious pie actually had dog turd in it, I would demand a refund no matter how delicious the rest of the pie.

SanguineAngel
20-03-2012, 06:21 PM
Yes but I think the dog turd analogy is not suitable, as it then becomes not a matter or "I didn't like this pie" but "this pie was clearly not fit for purpose & does not comply with health & safety standards" which is not the case with ME3 which, from what I can tell is more the former.

ezekiel2517
20-03-2012, 06:24 PM
I don't complain about customer rights, I complain about customers who act like spoilt children because they didn't get the ME3 ending they wanted.

You mean the ending that was promised.

[Spoilers]

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/076/d/3/mass_effect_fail_by_akael-d4t0nrx.png

buemba
20-03-2012, 06:56 PM
If a bad ending entitled me to a full refund gaming would be a much cheaper hobby.

Whatever happened to it being about the journey and not the destination?

ezekiel2517
20-03-2012, 07:07 PM
If a bad ending entitled me to a full refund gaming would be a much cheaper hobby.

Whatever happened to it being about the journey and not the destination?

This ending was particularly bad, because the games were very good. I still find it hard to believe 10 minutes could spoil an entire trilogy, but it did.

I would also like to point out how some were happy to criticize boycotts, whether they had right reasons or not, claiming they never change anything and that they should hurt them in their wallet, but it seems this boycott (with right reasons) hurting them in their wallets (refund of a product they lied about) still gets dismissed.

NathanH
20-03-2012, 07:10 PM
Just forget it ever happened and make up your own ending. Don't let Bioware rule your mind.

Nalano
20-03-2012, 07:11 PM
What makes you say that?

Edit: Point being, there are a lot of people who think the game outright sucks and didn't deign to slog through it.

Because, oh, I dunno, THEY'RE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE GODDAMN ENDING AND YOU DON'T SEE THE ENDING UNTIL YOU'VE PLAYED THIRTY FREAKIN' HOURS OF THE GAME.

ezekiel2517
20-03-2012, 07:14 PM
Because, oh, I dunno, THEY'RE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE GODDAMN ENDING AND YOU DON'T SEE THE ENDING UNTIL YOU'VE PLAYED THIRTY FREAKIN' HOURS OF THE GAME.

You clearly miss the point entirely. If you like arguments as you claim, take a trip down to the social Bioware forums. They are full of well written reasons why it needs to be changed.

edit: some links because why not. Spoilers in all of them.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/Mass-Effect-3/Mass-Effect-3-Story-and-Campaign-Discussion-Spoilers-Allowed/Thoughts-from-a-40-year-old-gamer-that-hated-the-ending-10298794-1.html

http://social.bioware.com/forum/Mass-Effect-3/Mass-Effect-3-Story-and-Campaign-Discussion-Spoilers-Allowed/EABioware-in-Full-PR-Damage-Control-Mode-UPDATED-31912-334-PM-UTCGMT--4-hours-10084349-1.html

http://angryjoeshow.com/2012/03/top-10-reasons-we-hate-mass-effect-3s-ending/

Nalano
20-03-2012, 07:21 PM
You clearly miss the point entirely. If you like arguments as you claim, take a trip down to the social Bioware forums. They are full of well written reasons why it needs to be changed.

You've both missed the point I was making: It's patently obvious you played through the whole game. No, you shouldn't get a refund, especially if your primary argument is "I didn't like the ending."

The Bioware forums have been a cesspool of complainers complaining about complaining for years. They have people hating on one of the writers because she doesn't love video games as much as they do, as if that was important. They have people hating on Buzz freakin' Aldrin because he's not a professional voice actor. Their general reaction to the furor they've caused about the ending can be summed up as "if there's smoke there's fire," and they love singling out writers they think are responsible.

According to them, every word from Bioware is a lie and every decision Bioware makes is not just wrong but calculated evil. The folks on those forums are dicks.

Drake Sigar
20-03-2012, 07:27 PM
Maybe this will cheer someone up: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/5496-The-Positive-Side-of-Mass-Effect-3s-Ending-Drama

Mistabashi
20-03-2012, 07:29 PM
I can't begin to understand the mindframe of someone who thinks buying a game entitles them to enjoy it, let alone that they should be given a refund because they didn't like the ending.

ezekiel2517
20-03-2012, 07:29 PM
@Nalano

Did you get that from the links I posted? Pretty sure you didn't. I am not looking for a refund myself, because I am still in denial that this is it for ME, but if I knew right now that it is, I definitely would go for it. You cannot flat out lie about your product and get away with a cheap, rushed conclusion unscathed. And I shouldn't have to suck it up either.

Nalano
20-03-2012, 07:41 PM
@Nalano

Did you get that from the links I posted?

Those links made the rounds before you posted them (Jesus, all these threads are ditto machines of the same freakin' grapevine) and they still read like "Bioware can do no right."

I'm not going to agree with you based on those links. Hell, if anything, I'll argue the opposite (http://www.onesixthwarriors.com/forum/loose-bits-off-topic/217646-why-do-star-wars-fans-hate-star-wars.html): People are angry not because Bioware fucked up, but because of what Bioware did right. Nobody gave two shits when Blizzard made The Burning Crusade and retconned a buncha stuff, because nobody gave two shits about WoW lore in the first place. But Bioware can't keep that kind of high forever. Nobody can. You can't please all of the people all of the time.

NathanH
20-03-2012, 07:48 PM
These threads have made me decide that, when I get the game, I'm going to like the ending. Even if it's shite, I'm going to like it now.

ezekiel2517
20-03-2012, 07:52 PM
Of course, we are upset because 98% of the series is fantastic. It is one of the best ever, full with characters we love. The problem is ending it on such a low note, going against everything we did and everything the game was about. Shepard surrendering to a machine without any argument, even though he or she had done exactly the opposite at every turn against the odds.

I don't find the "you can't please everybody" argument to be true in this. It is of course not possible for me to know if "we" are a majority, but it sure as hell seems to be. Neither did I expect you to argue about those links. I only wanted to show this is NOT about some small group of "haters" who are not pleased by stupid reasons. The Bioware forums have a lot of well thought threads, and most of the trolls are actually sympathizers of the ending(s), instead of the other way around.

@NathanH: I didn't believe it either. I dismissed it as some internet trolls going at it again. I couldn't imagine it being anywhere near as bad. I was wrong.

deano2099
20-03-2012, 07:55 PM
I would also like to point out how some were happy to criticize boycotts, whether they had right reasons or not, claiming they never change anything and that they should hurt them in their wallet, but it seems this boycott (with right reasons) hurting them in their wallets (refund of a product they lied about) still gets dismissed.

It'll be Amazon taking the hit on that refund, not Bioware.

ezekiel2517
20-03-2012, 07:58 PM
It'll be Amazon taking the hit on that refund, not Bioware.

I doubt they could dismiss the refunds as not being a problem based on that, though.

NathanH
20-03-2012, 07:58 PM
Look will people stop it with the fucking spoilers please.

Nalano
20-03-2012, 08:04 PM
Of course, we are upset because 98% of the series is fantastic. It is one of the best ever, full with characters we love. The problem is ending it on such a low note, going against everything we did and everything the game was about. BLAH BLAH SPOILERS

And I disagree. And not just because I like being contrarian. So there. For fuck's sake, the sheer HATE HATE HATE going on is, and I'll repeat myself, embarrassing for you all.

ezekiel2517
20-03-2012, 08:05 PM
I didn't see that as a spoiler at all? Sorry, it seemed clear there was a problem, but I didn't say exactly what it was.

Hate? hardly.

bwion
20-03-2012, 08:13 PM
I haven't yet played Mass Effect 3 (not out of some ludicrous 'boycott' or anything, I just haven't had the money or time, plus there were some things about the game that dampened my enthusiasm, but that's neither here nor there), though I have spoiled myself on the ending (mostly out of a desire not to have to dodge the WHOLE ENTIRE INTERNET for the next few months). It sounds very much like it was a problem with execution rather than concept, but I can't really have an informed opinion on the ending at the moment.

That said, I applaud Amazon for this. Not because OMG THE FANS DESERVE AN ENDING DESIGNED TO THEIR EXACT SPECIFICATIONS, because that's just noise, and I refuse to be drawn into the nonsensical shouting, or the nonsensical shouting about the nonsensical shouting. The only thing I'll say about the controversy at all is that it's tragic, if not surprising, that people with legitimate complaints and critiques are being drowned out by the small-but-loud contingent of unhinged people who, for example, think this is a matter for the FTC. As usual.

And not even because "I played this and didn't enjoy it" is a reasonable pretext to ask for a refund; Amazon would have been well within their rights to refuse. I'm owed a refund for my burger if it isn't cooked properly, or if the meat is rotten, but not if it turns out that, hey, I don't actually like burgers.

But it's a thing to be celebrated when a company goes above and beyond for their customers. It's all too rare a thing these days, and even though I'm sure there was a cynical "if we're as nice to them as we can be, they are more likely to shop with us in the future" motive, I find that I don't care very much. Because, well, if a company is as nice to me as they can be, I *am* more likely to shop with them in the future.

Fiyenyaa
20-03-2012, 08:38 PM
And I disagree. And not just because I like being contrarian. So there. For fuck's sake, the sheer HATE HATE HATE going on is, and I'll repeat myself, embarrassing for you all.

I've mainly seen people saying things like "The game was great until the last ten minutes. Then it went completely bananas in a way that pre-released marketing suggested it absolutely wouldn't do, and didn't allow for my choices in the previous 100 hours of gameplay to mean anything anymore".
There are of course an enormous amount of people being rude and obnoxious about it. Then again, there are people like that everywhere​ on the internet.

c-Row
20-03-2012, 08:49 PM
These threads have made me decide that, when I get the game, I'm going to like the ending. Even if it's shite, I'm going to like it now.

This. Even though there is no need to play through the whole game anymore more because people pretty much spoiled it in this thread.

Smashbox
20-03-2012, 08:51 PM
This. Even though there is no need to play through the whole game anymore more because people pretty much spoiled it in this thread.

Yeah, note to self: Stop clicking on things. The game's what, a week old? And people are spoilin' like crazy.

gganate
20-03-2012, 08:56 PM
You shouldn't get a refund for a product you've spent thirty hours with. The world doesn't work like that. If it did, I could return my car after 150 thousand miles, or a five year-old pc. If you were unsatisfied with the game, you should've returned it before you drained the product of all its worth.

But yeah, this is a non-story, no one's offering refunds because of a shitty ending.

kyrieee
20-03-2012, 10:32 PM
I hate the endings, but returning the game is disgusting to me. The people who do it come off as entitled as pirates. I can't stand those people.

soldant
21-03-2012, 01:29 AM
I've mainly seen people saying things like "The game was great until the last ten minutes. Then it went completely bananas in a way that pre-released marketing suggested it absolutely wouldn't do, and didn't allow for my choices in the previous 100 hours of gameplay to mean anything anymore".
And yet it's that last 10 minutes which everybody focuses on, the rest of it is only relevant when they feel like it. ME3 brought back some of the things people wanted from ME1 without forcing the rest of the baggage onto us (like a ridiculous inventory filled with dupe guns that some people so desperately wanted for no good reason). But because the game had a 3 pathway choice ending, and nobody liked any of those choices, everybody flipped out and screamed the house down, combined with the DLC fiasco. And then some people seem to think that Amazon/Bioware owes people a refund because they didn't like the final 10 minutes!

The hatred is a bit ridiculous, but with that said it's a product of a series that people really enjoyed. As much as everyone whinged about it and complains about Bioware, obviously everybody loved it enough to get so invested in the ending. From that perspective, Mass Effect has been an incredible success for Bioware.

Fiyenyaa
21-03-2012, 01:47 AM
And yet it's that last 10 minutes which everybody focuses on, the rest of it is only relevant when they feel like it. ME3 brought back some of the things people wanted from ME1 without forcing the rest of the baggage onto us (like a ridiculous inventory filled with dupe guns that some people so desperately wanted for no good reason). But because the game had a 3 pathway choice ending, and nobody liked any of those choices, everybody flipped out and screamed the house down, combined with the DLC fiasco. And then some people seem to think that Amazon/Bioware owes people a refund because they didn't like the final 10 minutes!

The hatred is a bit ridiculous, but with that said it's a product of a series that people really enjoyed. As much as everyone whinged about it and complains about Bioware, obviously everybody loved it enough to get so invested in the ending. From that perspective, Mass Effect has been an incredible success for Bioware.

I think that mechanically ME3 is the best in the series - a happy medium between the first and second games in that regard.
I also know that the reason I played any of the Mass Effect games wasn't the gameplay especially (if it was, I'd have really struggled with ME2), it was the setting and the story.
For me, the ending of ME3 really cheapens both of those things.

rpg_fann
21-03-2012, 06:59 AM
Is that ending really that bad? :)

c-Row
21-03-2012, 08:32 AM
Yeah, note to self: Stop clicking on things. The game's what, a week old? And people are spoilin' like crazy.

The problem is that there already is a thread discussing the various endings, while this one started out as an discussion about whether or not Amazon should refund the game because of the ending and would have been perfectly fine without people blaring plot details all over the place.



The hatred is a bit ridiculous, but with that said it's a product of a series that people really enjoyed. As much as everyone whinged about it and complains about Bioware, obviously everybody loved it enough to get so invested in the ending. From that perspective, Mass Effect has been an incredible success for Bioware.

You could say so, yes. People wouldn't care about the ending if they hadn't enjoyed the 100+ hours they sank into the trilogy before.

Mashley
21-03-2012, 08:42 AM
Is that ending really that bad? :)
Short answer: No.
The ending only hurts because the rest of the game/series was so good.
And jesus guys I didn't realise you paid $60 for a 5 minute cutscene.
I'd hate to pull the entitlement card but this sort of reaction is starting to deserve it.

R-F
21-03-2012, 08:52 AM
No, you can't. There's no legal requirement for them to do so. If they give you a refund outside of the requirements of the law, that's their choice. There's nothing compelling them to do so.

Except by selling you goods under their satisfaction guarantee, they're entering into a legally binding contract with you.

They've shown they're willing to offer refunds in certain circumstances, but if they revoked them in another case you could easily claim that they're not holding to their contract with you that you signed upon purchase of their goods.

Dexter
21-03-2012, 09:05 AM
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/10056886/1In

Official Mass Effect Website
http://masseffect.com/about/story/

"Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience and outcome."
Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/02/28/mass-effect-3-mac-walters/

"[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers."
Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://kotaku.com/5817782/mass-effect-3s-makers-arent-ready-for-talis-closeup

We changed Tali-that was tough because people were very passionate about her. A lot of people want to have her face revealed and obviously people are going to be pissed off either way.
Like "I thought she was going to look beautiful!" or "I thought she was going to be the most hideous thing ever!" So we've had a lot of debate over Tali's face, but that's the one we kind of dread a lot. We're always "well, let's talk about something else for a while!" That's something we're going to have to decide.

Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://business.financialpost.com/2012/03/05/qa-mass-effect-3s-mac-walters-on-how-the-game-tries-to-reach-all-audiences/

"I’m always leery of saying there are 'optimal' endings, because I think one of the things we do try to do is make different endings that are optimal for different people"
Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/334598/interviews/mass-effect-3-weve-brought-back-a-lot-of-what-was-missing-in-me2/

"And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as much as we are anyway."
Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazine.co.uk/interview/mass-effect-3-has-many-different-endings/

"There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any more than that…"
Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-02-bioware-mass-effect-3-ending-will-make-some-people-angry

"Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the architect of what happens."
"You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide some answers to these people."
"Because a lot of these plot threads are concluding and because it's being brought to a finale, since you were a part of architecting how they got to how they were, you will definitely sense how they close was because of the decisions you made and because of the decisions you didn't make"
Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2011/04/28/casey-hudson-interview-mass-effect-3.aspx

"For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different based on what you would do in those situations."
Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://venturebeat.com/2012/03/02/casey-hudson-bioware-co-created-mass-effect-3-with-the-sometimes-cranky-fans-interview/

"Fans want to make sure that they see things resolved, they want to get some closure, a great ending. I think they’re going to get that."
"Mass Effect 3 is all about answering all the biggest questions in the lore, learning about the mysteries and the Protheans and the Reapers, being able to decide for yourself how all of these things come to an end."
Interviewer: "So are you guys the creators or the stewards of the franchise?"
Hudson: "Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with the fans. We use a lot of feedback."
Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/01/10/mass1525-effect-3-cas5ey-fdsafdhudson-interviewae.aspx?PostPageIndex=2

Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] "Is that same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?"
Hudson: "Yeah, and I’d say much more so, because we have the ability to build the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot more different. At this point we’re taking into account so many decisions that you’ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them."
"We have a rule in our franchise that there is no canon. You as a player decide what your story is."

Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1027650/mass_effect_3_reapers_can_win_bioware.html

Mass Effect 3 will shake up the player's moral choices more than ever before, even going so far as allowing the Reapers to win the battle for Earth, according to BioWare's community representative Mike Gamble.
In an inteview with NowGamer at Gamescom, we asked if BioWare was taking risks with Mass Effect 3's plot, including a negative ending in which the Reapers win. Gamble simply said, "Yes". We asked him again to confirm what he had just said and he said, "Yes".
Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer.com/features/1229983/mass_effect_3_developer_interview_shepard_coop_sto ry_details.html

"Of course you don’t have to play multiplayer, you can choose to play all the side-quests in single-player and do all that stuff you’ll still get all the same endings and same information, it’s just a totally different way of playing"

Casey Hudson (Director)
http://gamescatalyst.com/2012/03/casey-hudson-kinect-the-future-of-interactive-stories/

"The whole idea of Mass Effect3 is resolving all of the biggest questions, about the Protheons and the Reapers, and being in the driver's seat to end the galaxy and all of these big plot lines, to decide what civilizations are going to live or die: All of these things are answered in Mass Effect 3."
Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/336331/interviews/mass-effect-3-we-cant-go-on-holiday-our-dlc-is-really-good/?page=2

"There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things - it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who plays it."
Ray Muzyka (Co-Founder of Bioware)
http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/the-doctors-from-bioware-discuss-the-old-republic-launch-ending-a-trilogy-a

"I just finished an end to end playthrough, for me the ending was the most satisfying of any game I’ve ever played….the decisions you make in this game are epic,"
"The team has been planning for this for years, since the beginning of the Mass Effect franchise. Largely the same team, most of the same leads have worked on this for years and years. They’ve thought about [the ending] for years and years. It’s not something they’ve had to solve in a week or a month even, but over the course of five or ten years."
Contrast all of this with some of the Information regarding of how the ending actually came to be leaked in the "Final Hours" App and discussed over here: http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9999272/1 , especially:

On Deciding the End of the Game
The illusive man boss fight had been scrapped... but there was still much debate. 'One night walters scribbled down some thought on various ways the game could end with the line "Lots of speculation for Everyone!" at the bottom of the page.'
In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up until the end of 2011. Martin sheen's voice-over session for the illusive man, originally scheduled for August, was delayed until mid-November so the writers would have more time to finesse the ending.
And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly lose control of Shepard's movement and fall under full reaper control. (This sequence was dropped because the gaemplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices).

And a picture describing on how the Endings came to be:
http://i.imgur.com/1vIS8.png
Regarding the Prothean DLC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRRpGlmtws8

Just saying and all that...

The really perplexing thing here though is as always the ever growing amount of people defending the "rights" of corporations over their own or in disregard of their own best interests... it's like they all mutated into this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqgRP5_YKu0

Kadayi
21-03-2012, 09:25 AM
Is that ending really that bad? :)

Why not play the game through and find out for yourself?

b0rsuk
21-03-2012, 09:50 AM
Damn, this forum doesn't have a 'karma' or 'approve' button ? The last post by Dexter is amazing. Dexter for president !

Althea
21-03-2012, 09:56 AM
Why not play the game through and find out for yourself?
Because not all of us have it?

SanguineAngel
21-03-2012, 10:09 AM
These threads have made me decide that, when I get the game, I'm going to like the ending. Even if it's shite, I'm going to like it now.
Ditto :) I've been avoiding all spoilers on this game like the plague while I replay 1 & 2 but unfortunately the internet is so full of bitching and moaning about the ending of a story that they didn't like that I have stumbled across what happens anyway, as people insist on talking about it in completely unrelated topics. THANKS INTERNET!

Upshot: I get to skim this thread and agree with the above!

Oof
21-03-2012, 10:41 AM
Here is a fact: Bioware made some promises that it didn't keep. The product was not up to scratch. Therefore, a refund is perfectly warranted.

That aside, this is just good PR on Amazon's part. Clever people, those.

victory
21-03-2012, 10:44 AM
Game with bad plot (?) warrants a refund now? Incredible.

JackShandy
21-03-2012, 10:55 AM
Did people request a refund when it turned out that Fable didn't have real-time tree growth or rival NPC's?

SanguineAngel
21-03-2012, 11:03 AM
Or pretty much 80% of Bethesda's promises ever? (real stats not included)

Tritagonist
21-03-2012, 11:03 AM
That aside, this is just good PR on Amazon's part. Clever people, those.
Exactly, it's very clever and it seems quite reasonable to think that Amazon did this to get in on the ME3 controversy.

After all, Amazon's normal returns policy has explicit exceptions for "any CD, DVD, VHS tape, software, video game, cassette tape, or vinyl record that has been opened (http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=hp_901888_ref_how?nodeId=901926)".

Oof
21-03-2012, 11:04 AM
Did people request a refund when it turned out that Fable didn't have real-time tree growth or rival NPC's?

There's no reason they shouldn't have. I suppose Fable players must just have a more full life.

If you buy something because of false advertising, it's perfectly acceptable to expect to be able to return that product. It's about time software and games were given a straightening-out at the hands of the law.

Yes, the above sounds overdramatic, but it's the principle of the thing: if a builder promises me slate tiles and I get asbestos, I am well within my rights to expect reparations. Why is the gaming industry exempt? If they promise, "No A, B, and C endings", then they'd do well to not give their customers A, B, and C endings.

SanguineAngel
21-03-2012, 11:12 AM
I am not sure that "promises" and comments made during interviews classify as false advertising unfortunately. It would be nice if there was some obligation to fulfil those commitments but then that might lead to ridiculous expectations when it comes to some devs who have a reputation for getting very excited when talking about their games.

They are not actually making binding promises. There's no legal document, invoice or quote that a builder might give you. These things are usually mentioned in conversation. Interviews are not contracts of any kind I don't think

Nalano
21-03-2012, 11:18 AM
I am not sure that "promises" and comments made during interviews classify as false advertising unfortunately. It would be nice if there was some obligation to fulfil those commitments but then that might lead to ridiculous expectations when it comes to some devs who have a reputation for getting very excited when talking about their games.

They are not actually making binding promises. There's no legal document, invoice or quote that a builder might give you. These things are usually mentioned in conversation. Interviews are not contracts of any kind I don't think

And people wonder why Valve chooses to keep its mouth shut about HL3.

c-Row
21-03-2012, 11:18 AM
If they promise, "No A, B, and C endings", then they'd do well to not give their customers A, B, and C endings.

The real problem arises when they advertise a certain feature of the finished game when infact it's either not working or not included at all. Not keeping promises or at some point realising that a feature you wanted to include doesn't work and therefore is omitted is something that pretty much happens with every game during production. Developers living up to their promises every time would be perfect, no doubt about that.



And people wonder why Valve chooses to keep its mouth shut about HL3.

Quite a wise decision in hindsight.

Oof
21-03-2012, 11:27 AM
I am not sure that "promises" and comments made during interviews classify as false advertising unfortunately.

You're right, now that I think about it. You could probably only demand a refund if the box/product description were inaccurate.


It would be nice if there was some obligation to fulfil those commitments but then that might lead to ridiculous expectations when it comes to some devs who have a reputation for getting very excited when talking about their games.

This is not our problem. Developers are running a business; they should act like it.

Zephro
21-03-2012, 11:29 AM
And people wonder why Valve chooses to keep its mouth shut about HL3.

Ahahahahaha.

It's slightly worrying that people don't seem to grasp the difference between subjective and objective promises here.

Michael Bay promised me "thrills" watching Transformers. McDonalds promised a "delicious" burger. They're subjective and the fact that I don't enjoy them doesn't mean the product was faulty or incorrectly advertised. If someone slips dog shit in your burger that's not a subjective issue that's pretty factual.
Or the fact that people talking about plans in interviews doesn't constitute a legal contract with the entire fanbase. Otherwise Peter Molyneux would have been sued a million times over by now.

SanguineAngel
21-03-2012, 11:30 AM
This is not our problem. Developers are running a business; they should act like it.

But I quite like that devs are still passionate. I would rather that than cold business, which is the direction most of the industry appears to head in

Zephro
21-03-2012, 11:33 AM
This is not our problem. Developers are running a business; they should act like it.

Seriously? Have you ever met a corporate salesman? They repeatedly try to sell software systems that
a) Aren't ready yet
b) Don't have the features they promised
c) Will never be done in that budget
d) Never done in that time scale

They just have the common sense to have expert legal teams write up the contracts so that these aren't necessarily issues.

Or yknow, builders and architects.

c-Row
21-03-2012, 11:34 AM
Or the fact that people talking about plans in interviews doesn't constitute a legal contract with the entire fanbase. Otherwise Peter Molyneux would have been sued a million times over by now.

"Today millions of gamers sued John Romero for not making them his bitch. More details after the break!"

Nalano
21-03-2012, 11:34 AM
Ahahahahaha.

It's slightly worrying that people don't seem to grasp the difference between subjective and objective promises here.

Personally, I'm sick of the same jpg of "We were promised there'd be no A, B, or C!" Yeah, because the manner in which Mordin died (or never showed up in the third act at all), or Wrex's role or lack thereof, or the survival or otherwise of Eve, or whether Tali was exiled or an admiral and became a hero or took her own life is totally just A, B, or C.

Oof
21-03-2012, 11:46 AM
Ahahahahaha.

It's slightly worrying that people don't seem to grasp the difference between subjective and objective promises here.

The "no A, B, and C ending" spiel is hardly (i.e. barely) subjective. If that had been on the box, I assure you more than a few courts would have no trouble ordering that refunds should be made. However, we've now agreed that interviews are not legally binding.


But I quite like that devs are still passionate. I would rather that than cold business, which is the direction most of the industry appears to head in

Professionalism and humourlessness are not synonymous.

Fiyenyaa
21-03-2012, 12:34 PM
Personally, I'm sick of the same jpg of "We were promised there'd be no A, B, or C!" Yeah, because the manner in which Mordin died (or never showed up in the third act at all), or Wrex's role or lack thereof, or the survival or otherwise of Eve, or whether Tali was exiled or an admiral and became a hero or took her own life is totally just A, B, or C.

You cannot call the whole journey the ending when the end of the journey substantially shifts the paradigm of the fiction to the extent that previous decisions are rendered if not meaningless, then extremely tenuous.

Zephro
21-03-2012, 12:35 PM
Does it involve time travel? As nothing is bad as a time travel based ending.

Nalano
21-03-2012, 12:52 PM
You cannot call the whole journey the ending when the end of the journey substantially shifts the paradigm of the fiction to the extent that previous decisions are rendered if not meaningless, then extremely tenuous.

But it fucking doesn't. It doesn't change anything of the sort.

I mean, a lot of words have been thrown about as to why the endings are so horribly bad that they retroactively ruin the whole series, but they're so scattershot as to be rendered meaningless except when distilled into "I'm only using this as a means to illustrate just how angry I am." And I've already concluded that y'all need to take a chill pill.

Fiyenyaa
21-03-2012, 12:58 PM
But it fucking doesn't. It doesn't change anything of the sort.

I mean, a lot of words have been thrown about as to why the endings are so horribly bad that they retroactively ruin the whole series, but they're so scattershot as to be rendered meaningless except when distilled into "I'm only using this as a means to illustrate just how angry I am." And I've already concluded that y'all need to take a chill pill.

I disagree. I find that the way the endings affect the world renders most previous decisions greatly diminished. I also think you shouldn't assume that everyone who thinks that the endings are bad is frothing at the mouth whilst they type.

deano2099
21-03-2012, 01:25 PM
Aww man, it's cute how people think that developers being legally held to statements made in interviews would be a positive thing. And not, for example, just lead to companies not letting developers do any interviews at all and having everything done by PR drones reading prepared statements. Even more than it is already.

soldant
21-03-2012, 01:29 PM
I disagree. I find that the way the endings affect the world renders most previous decisions greatly diminished. I also think you shouldn't assume that everyone who thinks that the endings are bad is frothing at the mouth whilst they type.
So simply because the last 10 minutes were bad, the rest of the game is terrible now too? Even if you really enjoyed it?

The ending not incorporating any of the previous decisions doesn't suddenly make the rest of the game suck, that's pretty irrational.

SanguineAngel
21-03-2012, 01:46 PM
Aww man, it's cute how people think that developers being legally held to statements made in interviews would be a positive thing. And not, for example, just lead to companies not letting developers do any interviews at all and having everything done by PR drones reading prepared statements. Even more than it is already.

In fairness, I think most people here are with you there. But if there was a perfect world...

Tritagonist
21-03-2012, 02:06 PM
Aww man, it's cute how people think that developers being legally held to statements made in interviews would be a positive thing. And not, for example, just lead to companies not letting developers do any interviews at all and having everything done by PR drones reading prepared statements. Even more than it is already.

It's obvious that are a lot of statements made by BioWare (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?3631-Amazon-offering-full-refunds-for-Mass-Effect-3&p=104792&viewfull=1#post104792) differ little from usual pre-release hype of any movie, game, or what have you. I don't see a lot of people complaining about those - there might be some, sure, but that's probably inevitable.

I think that what quite a few more people seem to have a problem with are their statements that, now that we've had a chance to play the game, don't seem to come close to matching their experience with, or understanding of, the final events of the game. When requests for clarification are then ignored for weeks, I can see why some people get upset.

The statement I've seen requoted most often in this context is one by associate producer Mike Gamble, who said: "How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any more than that."

Either way, I don't think the current debate is all that helpful to either 'side', for lack of a better term. There will be people who say 'but with end they really mean the end of the trilogy, which is the entire game' or something to that effect, in which case most of those statements are probably at least half true. But, to be fair to those who specifically take issue with the last 15 minutes, that's what a lot of them are saying as well!

Fiyenyaa
21-03-2012, 02:17 PM
So simply because the last 10 minutes were bad, the rest of the game is terrible now too? Even if you really enjoyed it?

The ending not incorporating any of the previous decisions doesn't suddenly make the rest of the game suck, that's pretty irrational.

I've always said I've enjoyed the rest of the game - I think it's the best ME game so far, mechanically, and I think most of the story beats it hits along the way are great.
I also think that the ending is so bad and nonsensical that it's killed my enthusiasm for the series. I don't think it's all that surprising that people will have such visceral reactions to something that they've invested so much time in. Turning the entire in-game universe upside down in one way or another and then completely failing to deal with any of those implications? Bad one.

Hartford688
25-03-2012, 11:59 AM
So the ending features xxxxxxxxxxxx? the fuck is that really?



Thanks for the spoiler. I avoided every thread that marked spoliers, or referred to ending, then you dump that in here. Really, thanks a lot.

gwathdring
25-03-2012, 06:17 PM
I've been avoiding spoilers so I'm not sure if the fuss is warranted (my guess, from past experience, is that I wouldn't find matters quite so dire). But I see nothing wrong with Amazon accepting refund requests. I applaud a company that puts its customers first, reacting to customer feedback. I've always had good interactions with Amazon in this regard--even getting refunds back from Amazon when a third party seller failed to reply to my customer complaints.

Should customers ask for a refund because the ending isn't what they wanted or expected even if the rest of the experience was good? I don't think so. But I'm not as concerned with whether or not gamers are being overly entitled here. That kind of customer service is more important to me. Good for Amazon.

Hartford688
25-03-2012, 07:00 PM
All I've seen is a guy 'claim' that he got a refund.

Indeed. Has anyone - the OP say - got any evidence of a general policy of Amazon to provide refunds on ME3 because of the ending?

I've looked on .com and .co.uk and cannot see anything...maybe I missed the announcement.

Wodin
25-03-2012, 08:53 PM
Good on Amazon. HOWEVER, I agree that moaning about the ending of a game as if it burnt your house down or left you traumatized is bizarre.

I hear many film endings are changed (some films are released with two endings in a dvd the one the director wanted and the one the American audience would want) usually because it isn't uplifting or leaves some things to the imagination.

Here we have a classic case I feel. The ending was the sort of ending that gets changed in a film.

Nalano
25-03-2012, 09:01 PM
Indeed. Has anyone - the OP say - got any evidence of a general policy of Amazon to provide refunds on ME3 because of the ending?

No, but grapevine!

Fiyenyaa
25-03-2012, 10:13 PM
No, but grapevine!

Yeah, there is some evidence. (http://www.giantbomb.com/news/amazon-says-mass-effect-3-refunds-arent-unique/4040/)
It also appears to be the case that Amazon'll do this for products you aren't satisfied with in general, rather than Mass Effect 3 in particular; so it's not a unique case for this product in particular, in other words.

Nalano
25-03-2012, 10:21 PM
Yeah, there is some evidence. (http://www.giantbomb.com/news/amazon-says-mass-effect-3-refunds-arent-unique/4040/)

Right. That just confirms Kadayi and Hartford. Somebody misread "I got a refund" to mean "Amazon agrees that ME3 is shit!"

Oof
26-03-2012, 07:00 AM
Right. That just confirms Kadayi and Hartford. Somebody misread "I got a refund" to mean "Amazon agrees that ME3 is shit!"

Their usual policy is to give a 50% refund for opened software. It would seem they do agree that ME3 is shit. ;)

Nalano
26-03-2012, 07:31 AM
Their usual policy is to give a 50% refund for opened software. It would seem they do agree that ME3 is shit. ;)

So a one-sentence post by a guy on Bioware's forums is now Amazon canon, right? Because every news post about it cites that one post as their only source, as every time somebody actually contacts Amazon, they refer them to their written policy which states that a partial refund is guaranteed for all software and that's what they're offering.

Oof
26-03-2012, 10:35 AM
So a one-sentence post by a guy on Bioware's forums is now Amazon canon, right? Because every news post about it cites that one post as their only source, as every time somebody actually contacts Amazon, they refer them to their written policy which states that a partial refund is guaranteed for all software and that's what they're offering.

Hahah. Getting a kick out of that was way too easy. Relax.

It seems to be more a case of how well you plead your case. In that link, in the comments, there are anecdotes of people receiving full refunds for other games that they've been sorely disappointed with, too. It also probably depends on how much of a "loyal customer" you are.

It's noteworthy that people have gotten full refunds for ME3 (for reasons other than bugs) at all, though. That would seem to imply that Amazon does recognise that the game has big flaws. :P At the very least, it indicates that Amazon recognise that their customers think the game is irredeemably flawed, and they're willing to take advantage of this to generate some good will for Amazon. :D

Schadenfreude, my friend, why do you visit so rarely? If not for Bioware, I'd see you almost never. :(

thegooseking
26-03-2012, 10:50 AM
It's noteworthy that people have gotten full refunds for ME3 (for reasons other than bugs) at all, though. That would seem to imply that Amazon does recognise that the game has big flaws. :P At the very least, it indicates that Amazon recognise that their customers think the game is irredeemably flawed, and they're willing to take advantage of this to generate some good will for Amazon. :D

Or it indicates that Amazon operates within the bounds of the law, since they are (at least in the EU) legally obligated to offer a full refund within the first seven days after delivery. It's kind of weird to construe "Amazon Doesn't Break Law" (which, let's face it, is a headline unworthy of any news source) as somehow 'proof' of anything pertaining to the game itself.

Oof
26-03-2012, 10:53 AM
Or it indicates that Amazon operates within the bounds of the law, since they are (at least in the EU) legally obligated to offer a full refund within the first seven days after delivery. It's kind of weird to construe "Amazon Doesn't Break Law" (which, let's face it, is a headline unworthy of any news source) as somehow 'proof' of anything pertaining to the game itself.

They offer the 50% refund for up to a month, and people have indicated that Amazon have been willing to give full refunds for disappointing and/or buggy games within that timeframe, too. What on Earth made you think we're only talking about the EU, and only about the 7-day obligatory refund?

Oh, neat quote from the comments section of the linked article: "It's more fun to pretend that the CEO of Amazon is so angry at the ending to Mass Effect 3 that he's allowing everyone to get their money back if they share in his rage." Yes, it is.

thegooseking
26-03-2012, 11:12 AM
They offer the 50% refund for up to a month, and people have indicated that Amazon have been willing to give full refunds for disappointing and/or buggy games within that timeframe, too. What on Earth made you think we're only talking about the EU, and only about the 7-day obligatory refund?

Um... no indication to the contrary? People have received full refunds, and there are (not uncommon) circumstances under which Amazon has no choice but to offer that. If you weren't for some reason so weirdly desperate to somehow 'prove' that ME3 is shit, you might be able to put two and two together.

Oof
26-03-2012, 07:01 PM
Um... no indication to the contrary? People have received full refunds, and there are (not uncommon) circumstances under which Amazon has no choice but to offer that. If you weren't for some reason so weirdly desperate to somehow 'prove' that ME3 is shit, you might be able to put two and two together.

I'm having fun kicking up some dust. You are the one being "weirdly" o.O intense about this issue... Yikes. Projection, much?

What's with the eurocentrism, too?

/topicdroppedbecauseof"weird"peopleinvolvedinit