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View Full Version : F*** PC IM GETTING A MAC. Maybe.



Patrick Swayze
20-05-2012, 06:28 PM
So,

I'm considering doing something crazy.

My PC has either power pack troubles in which case I'll buy a new one and all will be okay, or, it's another crap AMD video card loosing it's shit and it's time to rejoin the lovely green Nvidia tribe via way of a sexy 670.

Or the coin could land on it's side.

I could splash out on a Mac.

A nice neat Mac with one of those lovely screens and what not.

It costs a lot you say? It's top of range shit I tell you.

Mac has no gaemz? Bootcamped instalation of windows I say.

Macs aren't reliable you say? Shit hot customer service they do, no waiting weeks for an RMA.

And besides all I'm playing at the minute is Diablo Triple (by playing in I mean staring at the login screen) and that runs on Mac OS whatever just fine. The OS seems a doozy when compared with windows too. Shit seems to work and it has a metric ton of productivity software the likes of which Microsoft would charge you an arm and a leg for...


So talk to me people.

Any Mac gamers out there in RPS land?

I'm not exactly seeing any downsides here bar cost.

mickygor
20-05-2012, 06:45 PM
Microsoft would charge an arm and a leg for productivity software, yes, but with a Mac, they already have :/ I don't see any reason for anyone to buy a Mac over a PC unless they plan on producing audio. Very little in the way of hardware is top of the line with a Mac.

lasikbear
20-05-2012, 06:48 PM
I have a mac laptop of some sort and I hate it so much. The OS is fine and all but the hardware is terrible and has broken so many times. Definelty go for an extended warranty and even then it doesnt cover the battery or powercord, both of which have failed on me twice now.

The customer service is pretty good but only if you are under warranty, after that you are just buying replacement parts that cost too much and come with an added labor charge.

pakoito
20-05-2012, 06:53 PM
I would rather make a powerful (yet still cheaper) hackintosh than buy a mac, but do as you please.

Mistabashi
20-05-2012, 07:12 PM
Macs aren't "top of the range", you can build a PC with the exact same hardware (or better) for about half the price. You are literally paying through the nose for branding, that is all.

QuantaCat
20-05-2012, 07:45 PM
And the tech service is usually a hassle, atleast from personal experience.

Heliocentric
20-05-2012, 09:01 PM
Really, I can see why people would go linux for more freedom, or buy into a closed platform mobile phone, but a closed platform main system? Just daft. The main argument for someone buying a mac is "That what I'm used to", that's a strong argument, does that apply to you?

slick_101
20-05-2012, 09:38 PM
In all honesty I can understand the MAC hate, after all I personally think it's a tad expensive. However, its all up to you. I've got many friends that use macs for the audio side but they also just feel more comfortable with a mac than they do with windows and they all use boot camp with a pirated version of windows for when games don't have OSX support.

but If I'm honest I really just think you should just restart your PC completely. I.e. chuck out everything except the HDDs. Get a shiny new mobo, with the new Ivy bridge processors the 670 and a decent PSU with some top quality corsair DDR3 ram and you'll be away.

Keep
20-05-2012, 09:45 PM
Macs aren't "top of the range", you can build a PC with the exact same hardware (or better) for about half the price. You are literally paying through the nose for branding, that is all.

Branding and slickness, but essentially yeah.

JohnnyMaverik
20-05-2012, 09:57 PM
As others have said hardware wise, it's not top of the range. Build quality tends to be above avarage to be fair, and the customer service is on the whole better. Gaming on Mac is also always growing, most indie games come out or end up offering mac support, all of Valve's games and quite a few other triple A's (I believe Ubisoft are pushing out Mac support more and more).

You will however be paying too much for the hardware you receive, build quality aside, and most of that is just for the mac brand.

Mac's are great for audio design, better than PC's for graphical stuff (except 3D and video editing, mostly due to power constraints if you're going for game related stuff) but for gaming, stick to PC, get an Nvidia card, get a Mac like PC for half the price or a mac priced PC for twice the power.

vivlo
20-05-2012, 10:01 PM
Hey, i own a macbook (sound designing et al.), bootcamping Windows, works like a charm. Windows still does bug more often than OSX, but less things to play on OSX. :)

shaydeeadi
20-05-2012, 10:31 PM
I've got an '06 iMac for Logic mainly originally, now I have got lazy it plays plenty of games ok bootcamped and runs most MacOS natives perfectly well. The only place they fall short really is the GPU since they tend to stuff mobile ones in them for heat reasons (this is the worst thing!) Although mine plays Tribes:Ascend fine, Blacklight fine, haven't had the balls to try The Witcher 2 but I can imagine that would be a slide show, so I grabbed that on 360.
BUT they do have lovely monitors (if you are splurging my buddies 27 has a 2560x1440 which looks great, think this is partly why they cost so much.) I am a big fan of OSX now too, it's nice.

Also, so long as you get your ram from Crucial/somewhere else and not them when you come to upgrade or when you buy it if you upgrade it then. They are perfectly fine, but their increment costs are psychotic. Also, replacing the Hard Drive if it goes awry is really quite easy and I had to do that 3 months ago, but aside from the ram and HD you can't really replace anything else realistically.

roryok
20-05-2012, 11:36 PM
I have a 2006 Macbook Pro, and I have mixed feelings about it. I bought it because a guy at work sold it to me ridiculously cheap. I love the slimness of it, and the keyboard / trackpad are great. However, I have had hardware issues. I'm on my third battery, as they bulge out after about 2 years and no longer fit in the case. I'm on my second power adapter as the original frayed. I had to replace a temp sensor and i'm getting GPU glitches since. It gets absurdly hot. I get tiny electric shocks of it on one corner. The display panel is fading in two bars in the middle, giving an uneven picture.

That said, its been my main machine for about 4 years now, so it's had a lot of use. I can't say any other laptop would have stood up better.

sabrage
20-05-2012, 11:47 PM
Honestly, I can't wait to ditch my AMD card, but it hasn't impaired my thinking yet.

Bhazor
21-05-2012, 02:17 AM
Mac customer service is better? Maybe.
Does it take longer to be fixed and cost more? Oh yes. With a Mac you can't just slap in a generic part, oh no no, you need the special 3x the price Apple approved part. Shipped from deepest Mongolia by a sherpa with a dodgy leg.


I have a 2006 Macbook Pro, and I have mixed feelings about it. I bought it because a guy at work sold it to me ridiculously cheap. I love the slimness of it, and the keyboard / trackpad are great. However, I have had hardware issues. I'm on my third battery, as they bulge out after about 2 years and no longer fit in the case. I'm on my second power adapter as the original frayed. I had to replace a temp sensor and i'm getting GPU glitches since. It gets absurdly hot. I get tiny electric shocks of it on one corner. The display panel is fading in two bars in the middle, giving an uneven picture.

That said, its been my main machine for about 4 years now, so it's had a lot of use. I can't say any other laptop would have stood up better.

Woah, how many other laptops have you owned? Because it sounds like you must have had some terrible experiences if you think that little laundry list of problems is acceptable.
My parents have been using a dell daily for about 6 years and the only problem they've had was when they broke the space bar trying to clean under the keys. I've had a frickin' 200 netbook I've been using as my main machine for almost a year and the only problem I've had are a couple blue screens from a dodgy driver.

Shane
21-05-2012, 04:30 AM
Only an idiot will get an Apple product.

I heard from someone that Apple customer service replaces faulty parts with new ones if the product's under warranty for free, rather than repair them, that true?

Kamikaze-X
21-05-2012, 08:40 AM
Thinking it through. Replacing a card with a 670 or learning a whole new operating system that is different enough that it will be quite frustrating for a while, not to mention the additional
what AMD card are you having problems with? I've used them exclusively for 6-7 years and had no issues.

QuantaCat
21-05-2012, 09:50 AM
Only an idiot will get an Apple product.

I heard from someone that Apple customer service replaces faulty parts with new ones if the product's under warranty for free, rather than repair them, that true?

Yes, but its a hassle getting them to do just that. the repair store where I brought in one of the bulge power packs, actually told me to call apple themselves so they can give me a new one. What. the.

soldant
21-05-2012, 10:23 AM
I've considered taking that path because the iMac is one of the better all-in-one machines out there.

But I didn't. OSX is backwards, particularly the Finder. I'm not aware of any other modern OS that can't sort folders first without resorting to tricks or 3rd party software. By default the OS uses mouse acceleration (like an annoying console game), and last time I used OSX the only way to turn it off was via a cmd line hack (which wouldn't stick on reboot for some reason). Apple's support for hardware accelerated games is backwards. The Dock is friggin' ridiculous. That constant menu bar up the top is bullshit. What other OS lets you close every single window of an application yet still leave the application running? Answer: none that are any good or make any sense.

Sure, you can bootcamp them... but then you've paid for an incredibly expensive PC in a small case which pulls crap framerates because it relies on mobile hardware to keep heat down. Great, you've got a massive screen with a huge screen res. But you can't get even remotely playable framerates with a mobile GPU on most games, so it's pointless!

I don't like the irrational hatred Apple gets over the iPhone or iPad, which to be fair are very good devices, but OSX is a backwards abomination. The only redeeming features are the file system and the Unix kernel... none of which most of the Apple users will probably know or care about because Apple go to great lengths to hide them.

baboonanza
21-05-2012, 10:56 AM
I've considered taking that path because the iMac is one of the better all-in-one machines out there.

But I didn't. OSX is backwards, particularly the Finder. I'm not aware of any other modern OS that can't sort folders first without resorting to tricks or 3rd party software. By default the OS uses mouse acceleration (like an annoying console game), and last time I used OSX the only way to turn it off was via a cmd line hack (which wouldn't stick on reboot for some reason). Apple's support for hardware accelerated games is backwards. The Dock is friggin' ridiculous. That constant menu bar up the top is bullshit. What other OS lets you close every single window of an application yet still leave the application running? Answer: none that are any good or make any sense.

Sure, you can bootcamp them... but then you've paid for an incredibly expensive PC in a small case which pulls crap framerates because it relies on mobile hardware to keep heat down. Great, you've got a massive screen with a huge screen res. But you can't get even remotely playable framerates with a mobile GPU on most games, so it's pointless!

I don't like the irrational hatred Apple gets over the iPhone or iPad, which to be fair are very good devices, but OSX is a backwards abomination. The only redeeming features are the file system and the Unix kernel... none of which most of the Apple users will probably know or care about because Apple go to great lengths to hide them.
Here, here! I'm always amazed when people cite OSX as being more usable than Windows 7. And don't even get me started on XCode, it's a wonder anyone can make a usable program with that piece of shit.

shaydeeadi
21-05-2012, 12:58 PM
OSX is just as usable as Win7 when you give it more than 5 minutes of your time, could you also explain the 'folders first' please Soldant? Since I have never had an issue with this as the folders have always been first on the list for me, and am actually quite fond of the new filmstrip method they implemented with Lion. The only niggle I had was having to break the terminal out to view hidden folders, which took 30 seconds of my precious time.

Also, performance of Source engine games is really quite comparable (as in 5% maximum difference) between both operating systems in my experience, Deathspank actually runs better under OSX than 7 (probably because the engine is written in Obj-C.) There aren't many other examples of games I could cite since I haven't tried games above my spec too much, Dungeon Defenders ran quite well under OSX? Since Epic have native support for it now with UE3.

soldant
21-05-2012, 01:07 PM
OSX is just as usable as Win7 when you give it more than 5 minutes of your time, could you also explain the 'folders first' please Soldant?
Folders First means that folders always appear at the top of the directory tree. Pretty much every OS these days does that; folders are displayed first in alphabetical order (for example) with files following afterwards. The Finder and Apple fanboys seem to insist that folders be treated no differently to files, so that they'll mix in with the files. Under a Folders First system, no matter what the sorting method folders appear before files... which makes sense because files are subordinate to folders. I don't know if it's been a recent patch but I last used OS X Lion shortly after its release and folders did not sort first under all organisation methods... or indeed any of them if I recall correctly. Again, OS X is the only OS I know of at the moment (save for maybe some obscure Linux build?) that doesn't do this in a GUI environment.


Also, performance of Source engine games is really quite comparable...
I'd be surprised, because most people tend to dual boot because games run faster under Windows 7. Fact is Win7's native support for DirectX and superior GPU drivers (particularly with respect to OpenGL) makes it the far superior gaming platform. The benchmarks reflect that.

shaydeeadi
21-05-2012, 01:28 PM
Folders First...

Fair enough, I immediately set all my folders to arrange by kind anyway as soon as I got it so I didn't notice or get the irritation out of it, since all the folders are at the top. But I can see what you mean after juggling them all about. That is pretty wack now I look at it from your perspective.


I'd be surprised, because most people tend to dual boot because games run faster under Windows 7. Fact is Win7's native support for DirectX and superior GPU drivers (particularly with respect to OpenGL) makes it the far superior gaming platform. The benchmarks reflect that.

Very true, I had to upgrade the HD in mine recently so I could dual boot. But the gulf isn't that huge, it's enabled me to enjoy games on it so it's fine by me and I wasn't especially blown away by the difference when I got round to it. I hope in the future OpenGL and drivers for it get better, they have been recently but still not enough. And Apple really do need to do something about the GPU situation in them, with the way AMD/Nvidia are lowering temperatures it may get better in the future but wether they are willing to do it or not is another thing.

Bhazor
21-05-2012, 01:29 PM
No the source games run like ass on iOS.

http://themacgamer.com/2010/05/28/half-life-2-performance-mac-vs-pc/

Macs are not made for games. They're made for companies that want secure, non moddable closed PCs. So its ironic that Mac markets itself as the trendy, free wheeling hipster choice when I'm pretty confident most of them are used in offices.

shaydeeadi
21-05-2012, 01:37 PM
That article is 2 years old in which time Mac has improved their support for OpenGL and their drivers in general a whole plenty, as well as updates that have improved the engine for Mac. It is noticeably better now even though Windows 7 is still better for pretty much any game, but it isn't particularly ass at all.

soldant
21-05-2012, 01:48 PM
When I last tried out Source games they ran better than when I first tried them under OS X... but not by much. Windows has entrenched itself as the superior gaming platform. Apple aren't interested. Which sucks for Mac gamers I guess, but given that in terms of base hardware a Mac and a PC are the same thing, it hardly matters.

Kadayi
21-05-2012, 02:15 PM
Mac has no gaemz? Bootcamped instalation of windows I say.

Macs make great workstations (I'm on a mac pro at this very moment), but if you intend to use it for gaming then I'd say you're better of sticking with PC simply from the perspective of hardware flexibility in terms of swapping out GPUs, or throwing in a new HDD.

Bootcamping means you're effectively half a hard drive down, whether your in OSX or Win 7. Given games are only going to get bigger (May Payne 3 will seem like a minnow in a couple of years when the next console generation is fully BluRay), hard drive space is going to become ever more important.

Macs for business, PC for games.

Bhazor
21-05-2012, 02:52 PM
It doesn't matter what drivers apple sends out because their graphics hardware is still crap considering how much you're paying.

QuantaCat
21-05-2012, 04:15 PM
Macs for business, PC for games.

Not even for business anymore, since they killed Final Cut.

Shane
21-05-2012, 04:41 PM
Macs make great workstations

Care to elaborate?

Kamikaze-X
21-05-2012, 09:21 PM
oh yeah, aren't the majority of GPUs in Macs AMD cards? he same brand you are trying to get away from?

Chaz
21-05-2012, 10:28 PM
Macs aren't reliable you say? Shit hot customer service they do, no waiting weeks for an RMA.



Actually back when I was a computer support engineer I had to deal with quite a few macs, and my experience has always been that it takes them forever to turn around repair jobs etc. Also even if you know what the problem is, ie faulty DVD drive or failed video card, you still have to send in the whole machine, you can't just send them the failed component for replacement. Also if you're out of warranty then getting replacements like a mainboard for instance can be a major pain. Remember it's not like a PC where if your mainboard goes some years later you can just easily get a new one from a different manufacturer. With a mac you have to get the specific one that fits your model. Now imagine the mainboard fails in 3-5 years time when your mac is now an old model, getting a replacement board suddenly becomes a major pain. In the past I've been in the position where I've had macs out at repair centers for over 3 weeks waiting for replacement parts to arrive. With a PC you'd just go online order a new compatable board and stick it on next day delivery.

That's the problem with Macs, whatever ever hardware you buy at the time, you are more or less locked into for the life time of the machine.

soldant
22-05-2012, 12:42 AM
oh yeah, aren't the majority of GPUs in Macs AMD cards? he same brand you are trying to get away from?
They are today, but Apple seem to swap and change between AMD and nVidia for reasons only known to them.

verticuous
22-05-2012, 07:05 AM
They are today, but Apple seem to swap and change between AMD and nVidia for reasons only known to them.

The new MacBook Pros that are coming out are likely to have nVidia cards - mostly likely the mobile version of Kepler, if we can be optimistic.

CPUs are expected to be Ivy Bridge, and the refresh of the laptops is expected to to be in June (WWDC) time.

QuantaCat
22-05-2012, 07:08 AM
Just build your own facking PC, for a third of the price. If something breaks, replace it yourself. YAY PC.

Or whatever.

Kadayi
22-05-2012, 10:47 AM
Care to elaborate?

Because most people are idiots when it comes to technology and macs are relatively idiot proof. Useful in an office environment where not everyone is a computer guru.

Shane
22-05-2012, 02:22 PM
Ah. Well, that seems ingenious or is this the norm?

soldant
22-05-2012, 02:54 PM
I'd somewhat agree with Kadayi that OS X probably works okay for people who have zero experience with computers, because OS X progressively hides more and more of the underlying OS with each release. Problem is, it's also fairly opaque with its operation; to dig into the system you have to work harder than for Windows.

Also I find it incredibly ironic that Apple ran those advertisements laughing about UAC in Vista when OSX effectively includes the same thing, as does Linux with its sudo command.

Patrick Swayze
22-05-2012, 04:54 PM
Well guys I think some of you have put me off for now but to be making it clear I was talking about a desktop or imac not a laptop.

Though there seems to be a lot of unnecessary Mac hate going off.

P.S to the haters: I've been building my own PC's for the better part of two decades, fancied something different.

Chaz
22-05-2012, 05:47 PM
The grass always looks greener on the otherside.

QuantaCat
22-05-2012, 06:02 PM
Well guys I think some of you have put me off for now but to be making it clear I was talking about a desktop or imac not a laptop.

Though there seems to be a lot of unnecessary Mac hate going off.

P.S to the haters: I've been building my own PC's for the better part of two decades, fancied something different.

I was off of PCs for a while, due to Windows XP being shite, and Vista even more so.

Now that Win7 is here, I cant say I miss OSX, especially if you push the system to its limits every day.

Nalano
22-05-2012, 07:05 PM
I agree with the general gist of Kadayi's assertion, except I wouldn't say Macs are "idiot-proof" so much as Macs are "idiot-prone."

I've been in businesses where they bought Macs because a lot of the older staff had trouble understanding the most basic of operations on PC. Right now, though, anybody of my generation has absolutely no excuse for not being computer literate.

Personally, however, I hate 'em. I'm an ACMT and I hate 'em (also, that certification program is a huge ripoff compared to MCITP or A+). They're basically closed-off PCs for $500 more than an equivalent PC would cost. Also, I have no idea why you'd want to emulate an OS for the purpose of gaming. That's a horribly inefficient use of resources.

Kadayi
22-05-2012, 07:58 PM
Ah. Well, that seems ingenious or is this the norm?

Essentially the OS doesn't give you much flexibility in terms of how you work (unlike windows), so it means you know that everyone is on the same page. Which is useful if you're having to jump on other peoples machines, or work with them across files. Also because there's a limited amount of software for OSX, you're not subject too much to people installed doohickeys


I'd somewhat agree with Kadayi that OS X probably works okay for people who have zero experience with computers, because OS X progressively hides more and more of the underlying OS with each release. Problem is, it's also fairly opaque with its operation; to dig into the system you have to work harder than for Windows.

Indeed. Generally if there's a problem with peoples machines the IT dept resolve it. Being PC savvy I can generally figure things out, but it's beyond most people.


Also I find it incredibly ironic that Apple ran those advertisements laughing about UAC in Vista when OSX effectively includes the same thing, as does Linux with its sudo command.

Yeah OSX has been doing that for years. Generally you're not installing a lot of new software (because it's a work machine rather than a games machine), so it's not noticeable unless you've regular software updates. Still when has Apple ever let the truth get in the way of a good story. Most of their 'I'm a mac' 'I'm a PC' adverts were complete fabrications and half truths, but people lapped them up.


Right now, though, anybody of my generation has absolutely no excuse for not being computer literate.

You'd think so, but it's rarely the case I find.

Nalano
22-05-2012, 07:59 PM
Indeed. Generally if there's a problem with peoples machines the IT dept resolve it.

Raaaaaage.


Most of their 'I'm a mac' 'I'm a PC' adverts were complete fabrications and half truths, but people lapped them up.

To be fair, the Mac vs PC ads backfired mightily when they hired perennial douchebag Justin Long to oppose professional funny-man John Hodgman.


You'd think so, but it's rarely the case I find.

People are idiots, but I resist catering to such.

QuantaCat
23-05-2012, 01:17 AM
Re: Nalano and Kad:

Everytime I find someone that is obviously computer illiterate, I assume it's similar to my reason for not playing music: I cant be bothered to devote my entire life to it, because thats what it takes for me to be good at it.

Still, thats only if you "want to be good at computers", following that logic. But mostly, its people afraid of breaking things, afraid of trying stuff out, that dont want to use/cant "use" a computer. Heck, I know an artist, she's about 39 or so, that is absolutely afraid of doing anything more than browsing and checking emails; because she downloaded something once, and it was apparently a virus. Atleast thats what she claims.

People have the silliest reasons. Anyhow, if you want to have fun on a system, and maybe work on it a bit, go for PC. Definitely.

Nalano
23-05-2012, 02:00 AM
Everytime I find someone that is obviously computer illiterate, I assume it's similar to my reason for not playing music: I cant be bothered to devote my entire life to it, because thats what it takes for me to be good at it.

Two things.

1) Your analogy is flawed. Everybody is good at music. You'd have to be taught out of it in order to be bad at it. You may not have perfect pitch, nor a formal knowledge of music theory, but you and everybody else alive can hold a beat.

2) We have a 99% literacy rate in this country. Why? Because learning to read is a necessity for securing a place in society. Nowadays, the requirements for dealing with society includes being competent at computers. "Computer literacy" is the right term: Without it, you're fucked.

baboonanza
23-05-2012, 09:01 AM
1) Your analogy is flawed. Everybody is good at music. You'd have to be taught out of it in order to be bad at it. You may not have perfect pitch, nor a formal knowledge of music theory, but you and everybody else alive can hold a beat.
You clearly haven't met my mother.


2) We have a 99% literacy rate in this country. Why? Because learning to read is a necessity for securing a place in society. Nowadays, the requirements for dealing with society includes being competent at computers. "Computer literacy" is the right term: Without it, you're fucked.
But computer literacy doesn't necessarily mean the same thing it did 10 years ago. One thing Apple has clearly demonstrated is that you can make computing devices (the i things) that are usable by people with zero knowledge of computing but fulfil the majority of the populations requirements for such devices. Unlike a book computers can be made easier to use and that is the future of consumer computing.

Most people have no interest in or need to understand how computers work and being computer literate for them means knowing how to open a web-browser, read email and use a word processor. Just as I enjoy listening to music but have no interest in learning to play the guitar.

QuantaCat
23-05-2012, 09:22 AM
But computer literacy doesn't necessarily mean the same thing it did 10 years ago. One thing Apple has clearly demonstrated is that you can make computing devices (the i things) that are usable by people with zero knowledge of computing but fulfil the majority of the populations requirements for such devices. Unlike a book computers can be made easier to use and that is the future of consumer computing.

Most people have no interest in or need to understand how computers work and being computer literate for them means knowing how to open a web-browser, read email and use a word processor. Just as I enjoy listening to music but have no interest in learning to play the guitar.

In this analogy, Macs would be audiobooks, and PCs "real" books that you have to read yourself.

Kadayi
23-05-2012, 11:57 AM
Re: Nalano and Kad

I'm not disagreeing with you Quanta. My whole point is that Macs make great work stations because most people aren't computer experts, and they keep them on track.

baboonanza
23-05-2012, 01:55 PM
In this analogy, Macs would be audiobooks, and PCs "real" books that you have to read yourself.
Well, it was a pretty bad analogy :)

Nalano
23-05-2012, 03:55 PM
You clearly haven't met my mother.

Oh, I know hopeless tin-eared sods who couldn't clap their hands regularly if they tried. But they were taught to be that bad.


but fulfil the majority of the populations requirements for such devices.

No, you're limiting the population's capability by locking them out of capability. You don't make computers dumber, you make people smarter. That's why we have a mandate for compulsory universal education.

baboonanza
23-05-2012, 03:59 PM
No, you're limiting the population's capability by locking them out of capability. You don't make computers dumber, you make people smarter. That's why we have a mandate for compulsory universal education.
Sure, but you can't teach everybody everything. People have natural talents and enthusiasms and you can't teach people who aren't interested. It's like trying to teach girls maths*.


* Grotesque gender stereotyping employed for comic purposes only. No feminists were harmed in the making of this post.

Smashbox
23-05-2012, 05:33 PM
I really prefer to work on OS X, honestly. Windows 7 isn't that bad, but it still sucks in comparison, in my opinion.

That said, I've been down this road you're thinking of, and it was a tough hike. I would not make that mistake again. The problem comes in two years when your (probably not too powerful to begin with) graphics card begins to sweat a bit. Then a lot. Suddenly, you're stuck with a gorgeous-screened, beautifully designed machine that's getting completely destroyed performance-wise by a nasty little beige box. Unless you're buying a Mac Pro (and you'd be crazy to spend $3500 on a computer), you can't change out those graphics cards. And they're probably glorified mobile graphics cards. And probably underclocked.

Seriously, fix up your PC, or build a brand-new one. Don't plan to game on Mac hardware.

It's probably also worth mentioning that any computer you build/buy now will see the types of next-gen-by-virtue-of-console-cycles games that may end up pushing on hardware more than the slackening pace of the game-tech arms race of the past couple of years.

And I really love Macs. (though I have a lot of philosophical problems with some of the ways Apple seems to be taking cues from its mobile OS's successes, things like the Mac App store, the upcoming, ominously named Gatekeeper security plan that will create onerous restrictions on software developers and push people toward their own Apple-gets-a-cut software sales platform, and several notable examples of productivity-killing software simplification, nay, dumbing down, like the new version of Final Cut, missing settings in Quicktime, the abandonment of Expose, etc., but that's obviously another story)

Smashbox
23-05-2012, 05:49 PM
Also, I have no idea why you'd want to emulate an OS for the purpose of gaming. That's a horribly inefficient use of resources.

Boot Camp will allow you to run Windows natively without emulation, so it's not quite as bad as you're thinking. That said, it's really a fool's errand.

Stellar Duck
23-05-2012, 06:26 PM
[...] they all use boot camp with a pirated version of windows for when games don't have OSX support. [...]



That seems shitty. If you wanna buy a Mac and then run games the least you can do is fucking buy Windows. Pirating it is super douchey.

I guess it's even more expensive though. But that's what you get, I think, for buying a system that requires you to run another OS on top of it to do things.

Not aimed at you but your friends.

Nalano
23-05-2012, 07:30 PM
Sure, but you can't teach everybody everything.

Basic computer usage isn't everything. Consequently, have you heard of the term "core curriculum?"


And I really love Macs. (though I have a lot of philosophical problems with some of the ways Apple seems to be taking cues from its mobile OS's successes, things like the Mac App store, the upcoming, ominously named Gatekeeper security plan that will create onerous restrictions on software developers and push people toward their own Apple-gets-a-cut software sales platform, and several notable examples of productivity-killing software simplification, nay, dumbing down, like the new version of Final Cut, missing settings in Quicktime, the abandonment of Expose, etc., but that's obviously another story)

"And I really love Macs, except they're overpriced walled gardens with dumbed-down interfaces made to turn people into dependent consumers." You're quite the masochist.

Smashbox
23-05-2012, 07:31 PM
I could probably write a list of things I fucking hate about Windows, too, to be fair.

Nalano
23-05-2012, 07:49 PM
I could probably write a list of things I fucking hate about Windows, too, to be fair.

The analogy I've always used vis-a-vis M$ v Apple is that Windows is a Ford Taurus - An underpowered sedan that isn't particularly sexy but serves most purposes, can be tinkered with at will, and has a massive network of certified mechanics, dealerships and after-market body shops to call on - and OSX is a VW New Beetle: A sporty compact with a distinctive look, but its hood is hermetically sealed and you have to send it off to the manufacturer for basic maintenance.

soldant
24-05-2012, 01:04 AM
No, you're limiting the population's capability by locking them out of capability. You don't make computers dumber, you make people smarter. That's why we have a mandate for compulsory universal education.
Where do you draw the line though? By that thinking we could claim that Dwarf Fortress has the best UI ever and if you can't use it you're retarded and should just get better at it. I agree that we have to educate people to use computers properly, but at the same time I'd caution against it because it easily becomes a smokescreen for shitty UIs.


I could probably write a list of things I fucking hate about Windows, too, to be fair.
So could I. The directory structure, particularly when it comes to Windows internal operation, is a mess. Applications litter their files across an obscene number of folders. Application dependencies are becoming a mess (get new game, sit though DirectX reinstall again... then VC++ re-distributable... etc). Windows 8 can't decide if it should run on a tablet or a desktop. Occasionally USB devices just stop working for no apparent reason and won't resume working until you plug them into a different port or reboot. I could go on and on...

...but the key difference is that a lot of that stuff isn't generally a problem for a basic user. It's more niggling things that annoy me as a power user. Your average keyboard tapper probably doesn't care that an app has spread files across three folders in AppData, system32, My Documents, and in 4 different places in Program Files. They might start to wonder though why the usual view of a directory is to sort folders first when OSX treats them no differently from files, or why closing all the windows of an app doesn't necessarily close the app itself, or how running apps in the Dock aren't quite as distinguishable from apps that aren't running... well, point being that OSX basically breaks a lot of conventions that other operating systems have implemented as standard. Valid criticisms of Windows (i.e. not 'omg it crashes more lol') tend to focus more on things that don't really impact the end user so much (except maybe the USB device thing, man that can drive me batshit crazy sometimes), while the valid criticisms of OSX impact pretty much every level of the user experience, whether they're a regular user or a power user.

Nalano
24-05-2012, 01:08 AM
Where do you draw the line though? By that thinking we could claim that Dwarf Fortress has the best UI ever and if you can't use it you're retarded and should just get better at it. I agree that we have to educate people to use computers properly, but at the same time I'd caution against it because it easily becomes a smokescreen for shitty UIs.

Oh c'mon. If it was just about smokescreens for shitty UIs, we'd all still be using 2k.

roryok
24-05-2012, 10:34 AM
Well guys I think some of you have put me off for now but to be making it clear I was talking about a desktop or imac not a laptop.

Though there seems to be a lot of unnecessary Mac hate going off.

P.S to the haters: I've been building my own PC's for the better part of two decades, fancied something different.

Ah right. Well in that case I'd say, stick to it! If you buy yourself a beautiful 27" iMac you'll love it for about six months, and then either you'll have some kind of issue with it (like screen problems that the imacs suffer from) and have to send the entire thing away, or you'll want to upgrade and find out its stupidly expensive.

A guy I work with had a Mac Pro Desktop, wanted to upgrade the GPU. Apple wanted to charge him twice the going rate for an ATI card that. He said screw that, and bought a HD6770 off dabs. Turned out apple used a different power connector and he had to buy a special adapter off ebay to power it. After all that it still wouldn't work because he had to flash the firmware or something. He got horrible annoyed, gave up and sold me the HD6770 for about 75% what he paid. I happily stuck it in my 4 year old machine and it ran without issue.

Macs "just work" as long as you're prepared to pay apple lots of money to fix things you could sort out yourself on a PC

Rii
24-05-2012, 10:41 AM
Those laptop-style keyboards that come with iMacs nowadays are horrific. Style over substance ftl.

baboonanza
24-05-2012, 10:52 AM
Basic computer usage isn't everything. Consequently, have you heard of the term "core curriculum?"
I suspect we're actually debating over nothing here. I was trying to argue that being able to use a computer these days (and in the future) doesn't require you to know anything about how computers work, or to be able to fix anything but the most basic of issues. 10 years ago that was not the case.

Of course I agree that everyone should be able to use a computer but for most people that means learning email, word processing and browsing the internet. Teaching anything beyond that to someone who isn't interested is pointless and it's that niche that Macs fill.

Keep
24-05-2012, 11:47 AM
I suspect we're actually debating over nothing here.

I see you've met Nalano ;).

Smashbox
24-05-2012, 02:25 PM
Obligatory note about iMac GPUs:

They call them by their big brother's names (with some small differences) and make sure to leave out the telltale "M" when labeling these cards. Make no mistake: These are MOBILE GPUs (or at least closer to mobile GPUs) and not as powerful as their desktop counterparts.

Kadayi
24-05-2012, 07:11 PM
Obligatory note about iMac GPUs:

They call them by their big brother's names (with some small differences) and make sure to leave out the telltale "M" when labeling these cards. Make no mistake: These are MOBILE GPUs (or at least closer to mobile GPUs) and not as powerful as their desktop counterparts.


Indeed. The newer Imacs might be able to run WoW ok, but they aren't really state of the art when it comes to GPU performance, and you can't upgrade them. Essentially they put them in there because Adobe apps like Photoshop now take advantage of GPU, but they aren't exactly as demanding as modern PC games so no need of Apple to go the whole hog and put a full GPU in.

Nalano
24-05-2012, 08:21 PM
Of course I agree that everyone should be able to use a computer but for most people that means learning email, word processing and browsing the internet.

That's not using a computer. That's learning to type. That's like having a car in the garage just so you can play the radio.

soldant
25-05-2012, 07:01 AM
Indeed. The newer Imacs might be able to run WoW ok, but they aren't really state of the art when it comes to GPU performance, and you can't upgrade them. Essentially they put them in there because Adobe apps like Photoshop now take advantage of GPU, but they aren't exactly as demanding as modern PC games so no need of Apple to go the whole hog and put a full GPU in.
Also a full GPU in an AIO design would turn it into a hotplate. The system would need some serious cooling.

Smashbox
25-05-2012, 03:13 PM
Even with the junky stock cards, you have to run a thingie that allows manual fan control or Windows can generate Way Too Much Heat.

djbriandamage
29-05-2012, 04:50 PM
I don't see any reason for anyone to buy a Mac over a PC unless they plan on producing audio.

Been DJing for a decade and writing music for two, all on Windows and even DOS. I've heard your argument many times before, mickygor, but I don't understand it. Never have I felt that my operating system got in the way of my creative ambitions. All the major studio applications (Pro Tools, FLStudio, Traktor, Sound Forge) are available on both platforms but Windows and Linux have far more free and open source music creation and mastering tools than Mac ever had.

OSX is very nice and has some handy conventions for common tasks, but the same is true of Windows.

The question shouldn't be which OS is the best, but which has the applications you want to use. PC has many, many more applications than Mac so that's always been the deciding factor for me. If your priority is to play games on a computer then the choice should be obvious, but if you simply want to surf and communicate then any OS will do.

CuriousOrange
29-05-2012, 07:04 PM
Top of the line hahahahahaha! And as for audio creation. I do that on a PC, no idea why you would want to create video or audio on a Mac when you can cheaply build a monstrous PC to do it for half the cost with a fraction of the render time.

Unless of course you want the logo on the laptop you carry around with you. Because... you know, you're a creative type and you need to be branded as such, sigh. My experience has shown me that the idea that Macs are better for this stuff comes from the industries being full of dickheads, ahem sorry, pretentious... No I can't think of a nice way of saying it, but I think you get the idea.

djbriandamage
29-05-2012, 07:36 PM
My experience has shown me that the idea that Macs are better for this stuff comes from the industries being full of dickheads, ahem sorry, pretentious... No I can't think of a nice way of saying it, but I think you get the idea.

Well, back in the 80's you could only get design and creative software like Aldus Pagemaker on Mac. Then software publishers realized (gasp!) that you could sell more copies by making your product available on the platform used by the greatest number of people. That was 30 years ago so I have no idea how this outdated concept continues to perpetuate.

mashakos
23-12-2012, 07:14 PM
I've got a Macbook Pro yet I spend most of my time on Windows 7 bootcamp.
I've also got a top of the line PC with all the hardware required for a Hackintosh, yet have no interest in going that route.

Mac hardware is nice to have for the ability to develop native iOS apps and run some cool open source web frameworks, but other than that there really isn't a lot for the power user in my opinion.
As for gaming, my top of the line 2.8Ghz 17" Macbook Pro with 8GB ram and an Intel X25-M 160GB SSD can barely manage 20fps on a dx10 game like Resident Evil 5. It's closer to an ipad than a gaming laptop in that regard.

If you are the kind of person who is constantly annoyed at using win7 or come home to find something in your custom made PC has gone belly up, Mac OSX is definitely for you. Otherwise, there isn't a pot of gold waiting for you at the end of the rainbow when you switch if that's shat you're expecting.

sketchseven
23-12-2012, 09:21 PM
If you like being elbow-deep in your machine fixing in the lastest gizmo that you bought on eBay to make your system even cooler then it was, then Macs are very definitely not designed with you in mind. If that's what you like, enjoy.

Personally, I have a 15" Macbook Pro that I have bootcamped with Win7 for games; apart from that, I spend the majority of my time in MacOS for work and everything else. It's a far better user experience than trying to do just about anything in Windows. I love MacOS, but then I don't particularly like messing around inside my machine, I just want it to work.

As a side note, the only time I've ever had any issues with either of my Macbook Pros (this is the second that I've had), Apple fixed it for free.

Bhazor
23-12-2012, 11:55 PM
As a side note, the only time I've ever had any issues with either of my Macbook Pros (this is the second that I've had), Apple fixed it for free.

So will Alienware, Dell, PC World, Currys, Amazon, CEX, Time and any other retailer with a 12 month warranty. Which is most of them.
The price you're paying for a Mac it should have 24 hour call out same day support. Compared to Apple's prices paying the ~70 for an extended warranty is a freakin bargain.

Finicky
24-12-2012, 02:57 AM
Sounds like OP just wants to rationalise and justify buying it, nothing anyone says will have much influence on him.

Knock yourself out mate, it's your money.

sabrage
24-12-2012, 04:02 AM
Sounds like OP just wants to rationalise and justify buying it, nothing anyone says will have much influence on him.

Knock yourself out mate, it's your money.
Looks like OP stopped responding 7 months ago, as should you.

Nalano
24-12-2012, 05:05 AM
I thought about responding to this thread.

...and then realized I already did.

neema_t
25-12-2012, 01:46 AM
I've used Macs since I was five (20 years) and PCs since last November. Long post short: my next Mac will be a Hackintosh but if Linux ever becomes a viable alternative to Windows for gaming my PC will run that instead. Not because I dislike Windows, I'd just rather not pay for it if at all possible as I only use it for gaming and Chrome.

Edit:damn, I really should read the last page as well as the first before responding.

digirob10
30-12-2012, 11:58 PM
macs are becoming more of a game friendly system slowly actually