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Heliocentric
14-06-2012, 04:21 PM
So, I understand fumbles happen on fumbles other than natural 1. They also happen on 1 after modifiers.
Does agility count as a modifier? Or is it just tackle zones, range, disturbing precense(sp?).

Can somebody who gets it explain some examples?

Is this right?

Ag2 zombie throwing long bomb, has safe throw but no tackle zones or disturbing presences.

His roll would normally be 5+ but it's 7+ (only a 6) for an accurate pass on a long bomb. On the roll of a 1 the throw is fumbled. 2 and 3 safe throw kicks in 4 and 5 are inaccurate 6 is an accurate pass.

The the same would be true even if the zombie had ag3 but ag 4 would make a roll of 5 accurate and a roll of 4 inaccurate?

ChainsawHands
14-06-2012, 04:48 PM
Agility doesn't modify the roll, it determines your target - ie the total of your dice roll plus or minus modifiers (pg12).

So: yeah, your examples are correct.

Screwie
14-06-2012, 04:57 PM
Agility is not a modifier, AG gives you the base target which you need to beat on the die roll. Everything else is a modifier, including positive effects like Strong Arm.

In your example, AG 2 thrower is a 5+. Long Bomb does NOT make this roll 7+, it adds a -2 modifier to the roll. That may be nitpicky but I think the distinction is important when you start stacking modifiers from all over the place (speaking as a Stunty player). This means without Safe Throw, you would fumble the pass on a 1-3.

Aside from that, you have the right results.

(NINJA EDIT: Initially misremembered Safe Throw myself, haha. Fixed now.)

Heliocentric
14-06-2012, 06:25 PM
So, with Ag5 long bomb at -2.
Usually ag5 is 2+, so 4+ is needed.

1 fumbles
2 fumbles (safe hands kicks in)
3 fumbles (safe hands kicks in)
4 accurate pass
5 accurate pass
6 accurate pass

Inaccurate passes never occur?

Screwie
14-06-2012, 08:08 PM
Yep, at least I believe so.

Heliocentric
14-06-2012, 08:14 PM
Yep, at least I believe so.

This is madness. Dirty bleeding elves.

Screwie
15-06-2012, 10:52 AM
It's why High Elf throwers get Accurate, plus Strong Arm/+AG if they can.
Long Bombs that never miss on a 3+!

Everblue
15-06-2012, 11:18 AM
The question of course is whether a fumble is a worse result than an inaccurate pass.

If you sit your thrower in a cage or behind a screen then a fumble is ok - you might be able to pick the ball up next turn. An inaccurate pass is almost certainly going to be collected by your opponent however as your catcher is probably the only player you have next to the ball.

Screwie
15-06-2012, 12:03 PM
I think in most situations a fumble is better. Safe Throw really tips the balance in favour of fumbling as it stops your fumble also becoming a turnover.

One thing I don't know and am curious about, is the interaction between Safe Throw and Bombardier. If you roll a modified fumble and keep ahold of the bomb, what happens next? Play can't continue with a bomb in play, so do you just immediately get to try and throw it again?

EDIT: I like threads like this, we should have more skill/team/player spotlights in the future.

mrpier
15-06-2012, 12:27 PM
Apparently it's a fumble and the bomb explodes in his hands, because the safe throw fumble clause is not active for bombs or team-mates.

20phoenix
15-06-2012, 01:49 PM
Apparently it's a fumble and the bomb explodes in his hands, because the safe throw fumble clause is not active for bombs or team-mates.

According to some folks in the OCC

"Well, I just ran a test and Safe Throw worked... Rolled a natural 1, used Pass for the reroll, then rolled a 2 for a Fumble and he picked the bomb right up... but the game froze and did not let me do anything else that turn. It stopped the clock (virtually ending the match vs the computer). I'd have to run some more tests to see if it was a coincidence or a big bug (I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case http://www.orca-cola.com/beta/public/style_emoticons/default/Grin.png). "

Sounds like safe throw + bombardier may bug out

Screwie
15-06-2012, 02:11 PM
Haha somehow not surprised.

I think fumbling the bomb is probably the right call. While there is no specific clause in the rules for Safe Throw and bombs, the Bombardier rules do state what happens when you fumble the roll. Being able to throw the bomb again would make Safe Throw behave almost like Pass, making the skill much better than Pass overall.

Heliocentric
15-06-2012, 02:27 PM
the rules state safe throw is for balls only, not bombs or teammates. I'd copy paste but yunno.... pdf
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m780049a_Blood_Bowl_Competition_Rules.pdf
page 67

Safe throw has no functionality at all unless negative modifiers are applied (tackle zones or range) but skills like accurate and strong arm neuter safe throw by removing "non natural 1 fumbles"

For example, an ag 2 player with strong arm, accurate and safe throw throwing a long bomb (roll of 5+ needed)(+2)(-2) only fumbles on a literal 1(courtesy of strong arm and accurate countering the long bomb)but 2,3,4 are inaccurate passes.

However, an ag4 player throwing the same long bomb is 3+(-2) for an accurate pass (needing a 5 or 6 on the dice) however 2 and 3 are contained by safe throw and 4 is innacurate.

For a more insane fact consider this, an ag1 mummy needs a 6 to pass a regular pass,
1=fumble
2=innacurate
3=innacurate
4=innacurate
5=innacurate
6=accurate pass

but throwing a long bomb with safe throw stops 2 and 3 being turn enders like so.

1=fumble
2=safe throw retain
3=safe throw retain
4=innacurate
5=innacurate
6=accurate pass

So, its safer to throw long, but lets say that we were in 2 tackle zones? and want to throw a long bomb?

1=fumble
2=safe throw retain
3=safe throw retain
4=safe throw retain
5=safe throw retain
6=accurate pass

This is a mummy, throwing an accurate long bomb with a 2+ safety from turn overs, in 2 tackle zones.

WTF?

Screwie
15-06-2012, 02:30 PM
Ah gotcha. Funny the things you can miss even when trying to be careful.

Heliocentric
15-06-2012, 03:04 PM
So, upon testing this with the AG2 khemra thrower mercenary with safe throw.

The safe throw didn't kick in, a roll of a 3 adjusted by -2 (non 1 fumble) did not use safe throw.

Edit: thus *cyanide*, safe throw doesnt work

Heliocentric
15-06-2012, 03:09 PM
Yep, 5+ throw with very sunny and long bomb (-3), rolled 4 fumbled., safe throw did nothing, it doesn't do anything.

Screwie
15-06-2012, 03:15 PM
Haha nice, The AG 1 thrower is an interesting idea. The Mummy could easily get Strong Arm too...

The anti-intercept portion of Safe Throw is still very handy, particularly for slower passing teams who may not be able to manoeuvre their way around the scrum.


Edit: thus *cyanide*, safe throw doesnt work

Yeah, I just checked and it's on the confirmed bugs list on official BB forums. (http://forum.bloodbowl-game.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=100) So, yay.

When did Safe Throw's anti-fumble come into the rules? LRB5/LRB6/CRP? I seem to recall Blood bowl was released initially as a LRB5 game, maybe its a skill they never updated when the rules changed?

EDIT: Sigh, that bugs list is rather depressing.... So how is FUMBBL nowadays?

Alistair Hutton
15-06-2012, 03:45 PM
Yeah, I just checked and it's on the confirmed bugs list on official BB forums. (http://forum.bloodbowl-game.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=100) So, yay.


That sucks, that was going to be the next skill for my Strong Arm/Accurate Thrower.

mrpier
15-06-2012, 04:45 PM
Hmm, I have had safe throw work in single player at least, but I can't remember the circumstances now.

ChainsawHands
15-06-2012, 05:05 PM
Sigh. Anide.

Heliocentric
15-06-2012, 07:07 PM
That sucks, that was going to be the next skill for my Strong Arm/Accurate Thrower.

Just be glad you didn't?

Everblue
15-06-2012, 07:25 PM
On the subject of Cyanide bugs, can someone please explain to me what the Jump Up bug is?

Thanks

LowKey
15-06-2012, 07:27 PM
It still affects the interception no?

Heliocentric
15-06-2012, 07:31 PM
It still affects the interception no?

I'll test later, no idea, I mostly play Undead, I only pass on turns 8 and 16 when it's of no significance.

Screwie
15-06-2012, 08:34 PM
On the subject of Cyanide bugs, can someone please explain to me what the Jump Up bug is?

Thanks

The only Jump Up bug I'm aware of is that a bombardier can Jump Up and throw a bomb in the same turn, which isn't actually allowed in the rules. Not sure if there is another.


It still affects the interception no?

I believe so, I remember being cheated out of an interception or two in the past by Safe Throw.

Heliocentric
15-06-2012, 09:11 PM
On the bright side I learned why you might want to not reroll a pass and set pass skill to ask, so that's good.

Gorm
15-06-2012, 10:15 PM
Why would you reroll it instead of let pass reroll? Dont the pluses for other skills add onto it?

Heliocentric
15-06-2012, 10:38 PM
say its innacurate on a 4 or 5, but only accurate on a 6? rerolling a 4 or 5 would lead to a high risk of fumble.

potatoedoughnut
16-06-2012, 12:47 AM
When did Safe Throw's anti-fumble come into the rules? LRB5/LRB6/CRP? I seem to recall Blood bowl was released initially as a LRB5 game, maybe its a skill they never updated when the rules changed?


It looks like it came in the with CRP. The avoiding intercepts is still a good skill, especially as a passing team against another team with a dedicated pass blocker.

laneford
16-06-2012, 01:06 PM
It's why High Elf throwers get Accurate, plus Strong Arm/+AG if they can.
Long Bombs that never miss on a 3+!

I can confirm that this is amazing. My high elf thrower Vast Aire (safe throw, pass, accurate, strong arm, sure feet, sure hands) is currently miles ahead of all rivals in passing yards and completions in the RPS Open.

Screwie
08-07-2012, 08:05 PM
Okay so I've been bored and played a little SP to try out some things.

Good news! Despite the confirmed bug, Safe Throw's anti-fumble still works most of the time, for negative modifiers for both range an tackle zones. Although I can't figure out when and why it fails, it's not completely useless.

Bad news! Don't ever, EVER give Safe Throw to a Bombardier. Despite the wording of the rules, Safe Throw will stop your bomber from fumbling a bomb - but does NOT let you throw it again. So yeah, this causes the game to pause forever. Marvellous.

(Unrelated but I also tried a Minotaur with Jump Up... and the Wild Animal roll does indeed get the +2 modifier if you use Jump Up to block! Neat.)

Gorm
08-07-2012, 08:31 PM
Pauses the game forever? Sounds like a feature.