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View Full Version : RPS Blood Bowl League - The many, many Divisions of Death!



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Heliocentric
13-06-2012, 03:24 PM
Foulception..

*wakes up to the tune of numa numa*

Rakysh
13-06-2012, 09:30 PM
I managed to beat Desvergeh's Orcs, the Bishi Bashi Special, 2-1 in division D. A good deal of luck was had on my part- a particularly effective wizard and a well-timed kill on a black ork both contributed heavily to the second TD. Validation would be ace, as I think we both have a couple of level ups. Thanks to Desvergeh for a great game, and sorry again for that Black Ork.

Everblue
14-06-2012, 12:28 AM
I didn't realise I had to update the spreadsheet with my result - I've now done that, sorry. Could I get the (Division H) game validated please? I am literally beside myself with excitement to see if one of my Chaos Warriors has levelled up.

LowKey
14-06-2012, 09:29 AM
Pro tip, you can check the after match results before returning to the main menu (which will then hide the match until its validated) to see if you got any levels, this allows you to glare at your opponent who got all the levels while your mummy stays 1spp away from level four for the 8th game in a row.

Edit: i like your bloodbowl blog! Keep it up, also this reminds me Jiiiiim you need to archieve your match reports for ease of access, people who dont play in the open Jiiiiim changes popular songs into match reports and then sings them, it is a thing of beauty

Alini
14-06-2012, 09:49 AM
Thanks for the game and the write up Dog Pants, that was a very exciting last couple of turns indeed! My two runners are still drunk on their elfball success (including an accurate throw and a catch, oh me, oh my), although my troll-slayer will still be nursing injuries next game...

Screwie
14-06-2012, 09:49 AM
....while your mummy stays 1spp away from level four for the 8th game in a row

Arrgh I had this on my runner for ages. It's extra annoying on a player with passing skills!

groovychainsaw
14-06-2012, 11:54 AM
My thrower 'Bullseye' (Hah!) was on 5SPPs for the first 15 games I played as humans. He literally could not complete a pass, so I have great sympathy Screwie :-).

Alistair Hutton
14-06-2012, 04:36 PM
I went from having 7 Guard players to having 3 in the space of four games. That was a tough time, I've never got back to having lots of Guard because both my replacement Blitzers rolled doubles on their first level up so I had to take Dodge and then they've neither of them got another level up since even after about 20 games or so.

The Brain
14-06-2012, 06:09 PM
I'm having the opposite problem. All my catchers keep rolling doubles so I can never pass up guard but could really do with some basic skills like dodge on them.

Alistair Hutton
14-06-2012, 07:32 PM
If I get relegated this season I may have to do some serious surgery on my team. I think Dietmar Frej, for example, has not being following good personal development plan and has kind of drifted away from the team ethos.

President Weasel
14-06-2012, 11:58 PM
Confirming that Hutton's 'Altdorf Army' used to be a terrifying wall of Guard and punching.

Alistair Hutton
15-06-2012, 10:23 AM
I did not play a game yesterday and even if I did it did not go incredibly badly. If I had played yesterday I would definitely have been able to pickup the ball more than once in the whole match and definitely not have my only successful pickup when I was already 3-0 down. I'm sure NieA7 will be able to neither confirm nor deny these scandalous rumours.

President Weasel
15-06-2012, 12:03 PM
Well that's all right then.
Move along people, nothing to see here.

DeekyFun
15-06-2012, 01:09 PM
Hi - may AgP and I please get an extension for our match so we can play on Monday evening? He's away until then, so it's the next available slot from now. Sorry!

groovychainsaw
15-06-2012, 01:48 PM
No probs deeky, thanks for letting me know :-)

Heliocentric
15-06-2012, 04:43 PM
Safe throw is bugged, high elves are out. Replaced with dark elves.

Good meeting.

Screwie
15-06-2012, 05:20 PM
Safe throw is bugged, high elves are out. Replaced with dark elves.

Welcome to the best side. Will you be going all stabby stabby, or the more sane multi-blodger route?

Heliocentric
15-06-2012, 06:29 PM
I honestly I have no idea.

Match report:
2Labs's Tea and Discobiscuits(WElf) -vs- Heliocentric's TaxeDerm (Und)
My match with 2Lab has been delayed a few times, non of them by Cyanide though. By turn 3 I had injured 2 elves and killed third, caged the ball and the elf's tree man took root with no-one in his tackle zones on turn 1 and he failed a leap on an AG5 war dancer getting himself stunned while I passed about 6 GFI's despite the blizzard.

I was just about to get the gang foul train rolling knocking out 2 players in 2 turns with fouls and 2Lab decided for the good of his agility 5 potential foul victims that he would concede on turn 3 (4?)

Cant say I blame him, at a rate of 1 player a turn injured he was lucky the only death was a loner.

2Labs's Tea and Discobiscuits(WElf) 0-vs-2 Heliocentric's TaxeDerm (Und)

Winning by default is always a bittersweet thing, but at least i got a recruit out of it (the loner turned skeleton) and my wight won one of the 2 MVP's and finally levelled up. Can an admin validate please?

2lab
15-06-2012, 07:52 PM
I honestly I have no idea.

Match report:
2Labs's Tea and Discobiscuits(WElf) -vs- Heliocentric's TaxeDerm (Und)
My match with 2Lab has been delayed a few times, non of them by Cyanide though. By turn 3 I had injured 2 elves and killed third, caged the ball and the elf's tree man took root with no-one in his tackle zones on turn 1 and he failed a leap on an AG5 war dancer getting himself stunned while I passed about 6 GFI's despite the blizzard.

I was just about to get the gang foul train rolling knocking out 2 players in 2 turns with fouls and 2Lab decided for the good of his agility 5 potential foul victims that he would concede on turn 3 (4?)

Cant say I blame him, at a rate of 1 player a turn injured he was lucky the only death was a loner.

2Labs's Tea and Discobiscuits(WElf) 0-vs-2 Heliocentric's TaxeDerm (Und)

Winning by default is always a bittersweet thing, but at least i got a recruit out of it (the loner turned skeleton) and my wight won one of the 2 MVP's and finally levelled up. Can an admin validate please?

Confirming the default.

Heh, It wasn't about saving the Ag5s, more about saving my monitor from my fist.
Sorry, it's bad form but I've been digging emergency drainage ditches in the rain, all week and just don't need and hour and a half of losing badly at bloodbowl, before I got out and do more of it ;/

Heliocentric
15-06-2012, 07:55 PM
Confirming the default.

Heh, It wasn't about saving the Ag5s, more about saving my monitor from my fist.
Sorry, it's bad form, but I've been digging emergency drainage ditches in the rain, all week and just don't need and hour and a half of losing badly at bloodbowl, before I got out and do more of it ;/
Quitting is perfectly legitimate, how else am I expected to level up these damn zombies? But i think you underestimate elf bastardry, I've suffered touchdowns against elf teams with 4 players left standing at the start of the drive(yes this says more about me than the elves), failing that AG5 leap must have been seriously infuriating after watching my zombies GFI about in the slow like they were on snowmobiles.

2lab
15-06-2012, 08:29 PM
Quitting is perfectly legitimate, how else am I expected to level up these damn zombies? But i think you underestimate elf bastardry, I've suffered touchdowns against elf teams with 4 players left standing at the start of the drive(yes this says more about me than the elves), failing that AG5 leap must have been seriously infuriating after watching my zombies GFI about in the slow like they were on snowmobiles.

Yeah, I konw I've won a game where I had two gutter runner on the pitch for the last drive. You need some bounce in your soul to overcome the wroth of Nuffle and I'm just not there.

Kapouille
15-06-2012, 11:56 PM
Yet another eventful match for the fruitcakes.

After winning to toss, the halflings decided to receive. Unfortunately, the Norsemen blitzed through and surrounded the ball directly. The fruitcakes managed nonetheless to pick up the ball and perform a magnificent pass, allowing one of their teammates to be thrown far enough to score.

That being done, there was still quite a few turns to hold until the first half. We took a serious beating with a couple of self inflicted injuries. We couldn't hold the northern fury for long, and suffered a first TD.

The second half was a bit less balanced. Having suffered already a few losses, we couldn't contain the Norse and took a couple more touchdowns as the lines were becoming thinner and thinner... Not to mention the loss of a star treeman (with 3MV!!) early on, meaning not much could be done. Thanks to expert hacksaw action from the apothecary, an attempt to cure a long term root injury turned my star player into a pile of slack-wood (RIP).

Special mention about a (thankfully) exceptionally useless troll which spent its match either confused and growling or KO on the sideline.

Wayward Gladiators 3 - The Tuftybushe Fruitcakes 1

PS: that was a good laugh, thanks El Cubo for the fun match!

Rakysh
16-06-2012, 07:39 AM
Could I respectfully request validation for my game in Div D against Desvergeh? I've been salivating over the prospect of three level ups :)

Heliocentric
16-06-2012, 11:01 AM
I need to decide on 2 ups myself.
For my mummy stand firm gives me a matching pair and grab boost my chain block potential.

But for my wight I'm totally unsure.

Pro, frenzy or mighty blow for reliable brutality. Frenzy, grab,fend or standfirm for positional, control. Tackle or strip ball for target hunting.

So much choice.

NieA7
16-06-2012, 11:12 AM
I gave both my (Necro) Wights MB after guard, and to be honest while it's worked I've kind of regretted it - I think Tackle on at least one of them would've been much more useful. Doubles and stats aside I'm planning on getting Tackle then Stand Firm for both of them for their next skills. Strip Ball might be interesting but it probably goes better on a Ghoul - Dodge, Wrestle, Tackle, Strip Ball, lovely. That said Juggernaut/Strip Ball is a fun combo a Wight can pull off...

El Cubo
16-06-2012, 12:49 PM
Wayward Gladiators 3 - The Tuftybushe Fruitcakes 1

PS: that was a good laugh, thanks El Cubo for the fun match!

Oh yes, I had a smashing time! And gained 4 level ups, too (validate Div 5, plz!)

As someone here said, Norse are just a bunch bullies. They like to pick on someone smaller than them, but once someone stands up to them, they're just touchy little men. While they've caused plenty of hurts, they've taken more serious injuries than other teams I've played, apart from wood elves.

20phoenix
16-06-2012, 01:25 PM
I gave both my (Necro) Wights MB after guard, and to be honest while it's worked I've kind of regretted it - I think Tackle on at least one of them would've been much more useful. Doubles and stats aside I'm planning on getting Tackle then Stand Firm for both of them for their next skills. Strip Ball might be interesting but it probably goes better on a Ghoul - Dodge, Wrestle, Tackle, Strip Ball, lovely. That said Juggernaut/Strip Ball is a fun combo a Wight can pull off...

Agreed. Tackle is a priority as most your blitzing will be with them. I think strip ball should be on at least one of your wights as well. Ghouls have a shorter lifespan especially wrestle ghouls so you'll need backup for when your ball hunting ghoul cops it.

Squiz
16-06-2012, 01:42 PM
Personally, I would go with Mighty Blow, then Tackle as the first two skill-ups on at least one of the Wights/Blitzers. If you want to take MB anyways, take it as the first skill. It helps leveling up your guys that much faster. Tackle is really good on 1-2 players for a bashy team, but it does nothing when you're playing against non-dodgers.

Jiiiiim
16-06-2012, 02:31 PM
I've been pleased with how my undead team has been turning out on Fumbbl

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=656350

You definitely need one horrible MB-tackle Wight, to do your blitzes, but I think there's room for diversity with the other one. With so few specials, you need to pick a variety of skills.

potatoedoughnut
16-06-2012, 03:53 PM
I like to build wights with guard then tackle/stand firm/mighty blow/juggernaut.

It depends on how you build the rest of your team, but you can either make them versatile with tackle and stand firm, or strong blitzers with tackle/jugg. MB help get people off the pitch, so if your strategy needs this then pick it up early.

I find that I blitz most often with mummies, so I usually go with stand firm/tackle, but if you blitz with the wights a lot then MB/jugg is a good combo.

potatoedoughnut
16-06-2012, 03:56 PM
Wrote this up in the wrong thread:


CH and I played our day 2 champs game yesterday and the score line ended tied at 2-2 after a lot of back and forth action between his mutant freak stat Pro Elves and my Necros.

The cas line was quite different though with 2-0-0 for his elves and 4-3-2 for my necros. The deaths were his blodge kicker lino and an accurate, safe throw, sure hands thrower. And as a bonus another unskilled lino picked up -1 str. Hooray for dead elves!

Unfortunately his freak catchers (8447, 8356, 8347, and 10-4-5-7 (!!)) escaped with only some BHs and KOs.

As you can imagine form the above CH did his freak elf thing leaping into cages (which I always manage to mess up the guard spread) and staying competitive with only half his team on the pitch. I did my best to hurt elves and keep him away from the ball. In the end we both scored 2, but CH almost stole the ball away at several points to make it 3-1 (or worse).

Jolima - it's up to you to kill off some of the freak catchers

Jiiiim - Again we play for the championship, and your team is still scary.

NieA7
16-06-2012, 05:45 PM
Read in Tooth and Claw (Necro, me) vs Altdorf Army XI (Human, Alistair Hutton)

Claw won the toss and elected to kick, with the rain falling steadily all around (and in the game). Humans are more adept at scoring quickly than Necro but with a lot of tackle available the Army was an alarming prospect - better to thin their ranks a little first. A short kick was rewarded with a blitz result but some dim play didn't really take advantage of it other than getting a wolf next to where the ball would land, leaving the field largely clear for the Armies drive. Then Nuffle made his presence felt for the first, but by no means the last, time.

First the blitzer failed his GFI, eating a re-roll. Then he couldn't push the wolf away from the ball despite getting a two dice block, then finally the AG4 catcher flubbed the pickup and spilled the ball to a slightly clearer spot. A little careful blocking left it surrounded by the dead, allowing the Ag4 ghoul to sweep in and grab it (albeit with a reroll). Despite some bold efforts to break in, including a very ambitious blitz from the ogre with a dodge into three tackle zones, there was nothing the humans could do to stop the ghoul running it in on turn 3, 1-0 to Claw.

Recieving again the Army changed their setup a little, weighted towards the left. The kick went short about as far to the right as it was possible to go, gently bouncing next to the sidelines as it came to rest. A blitzer and catcher sprinted through down both edges, waiting for the pickup but unfortunately the thrower hadn't read the script - despite having sure hands he spilled the ball into the crowd, who promptly threw the ball onto the half way line between three zombies. The Necros quickly took advantage, caging up around the ball before the Ag 4 ghoul went for the pickup. This time he dropped it, but much to his own surprise the ball scattered onto a zombie who dropped it before bouncing back to him, and this time he caught it. He was even more surprised when the ogre burst through on a blitz, but fortunately he was only pushed back. Taking a risk the humans swamped the ghoul, drowning him in tackle zones but leaving themselves open to be blocked. A little careful pushing saw the ghoul able to break free but on his own, hotly pursued by a human catcher. The inevitable blitz only saw the ghoul pushed back, giving him the chance to dodge out through a couple of tackle zones on the following turn and sprint over the line, 2-0 to Claw on turn 6.

Kicking off again Claw once again got the ball next to the sidelines, and once again the thrower flubbed the pickup (although the scatter went onto the pitch rather than into the crowd). This time the wolf failed the GFI needed to get next to the ball, potentially freeing it up for a huge sprint from the MV9/Ag4/Sprint catcher-thing the humans had been sheltering. Nuffle still had other ideas though, as for a third time in quick succession the thrower flubbed the pickup, leaving it 2-0 at half time.

The second half kicked off with no injuries or KOs on either side, but at 2-0 up and receiving Claw were feeling confident. A high kick to the end zone was spilled by one ghoul, but luckily he dropped it into the crowd giving a touchback that went to the other. A fairly feeble half-cage was formed on the left of the pitch around the half way line that proved too tempting for the Army to resist, but it was ultimately to prove their final downfall. Swarming in from all sides the humans managed to get the ball spilled but couldn't knock down the rest of the cage, leaving a lot of blocks open for the following turn. Sure enough the pain was delivered, first with the ogre getting KO'd on a one dice block, then with three of the humans getting crowd surfed in short order.

Running out of players on the pitch the Armies options were dwindling rapidly, leading to a series of hero plays that never quite came off. A catcher was injured (the Apo helpfully offering to cure a pinched nerve by breaking the poor mans neck), then the star blitzer Wulf got crowd surfed and badly hurt. After that there simply wasn't enough left in the tank to stop Claw from taking a gentle jog into the end zone on turn 16. A brave attempt at a one turn touchdown came within a gnats of working, only for a failed GFI to bring the catcher down one square away from the end zone - 3-0 to Claw at full time.

The Army got severely Nuffled. While Claw's dice weren't spectacular outside blocking (which nearly always brought someone down, though armour wasn't broken very often), the Army were lucky if they were allowed to string two or three moves together without a turnover. The first half was unfair - especially with the ball - but the second was downright cruel. Thanks to Mr Hutton for being a joy to play against throughout, albeit with some moderate to heavy hexing (largely ineffective thankfully). Claw are now two for two, with the terrifying possibility of actually winning a division for the first time in their history well within their reach...

Players of Note: Fido the Werewolf - 30SPPs, every single one from touchdowns. Less a werewolf, more an overexcited puppy playing fetch.

Alistair Hutton
16-06-2012, 10:40 PM
It's all very, very accurate lies!

President Weasel
16-06-2012, 11:06 PM
NieA7 has quite the active imagination there. Of course, there's too much detail to really be convincing.

Heliocentric
16-06-2012, 11:19 PM
Hooray for dead elves!You can say that again.

Hooray for dead elves!Because really, that's what Bloodbowl is all about, getting a legend in there prime, and stamping on their head until soup comes out.

Hooray for dead elves!That's enough now.

DWZippy
16-06-2012, 11:40 PM
I'm hoping to take out last games frustrations on Preston's Elves this coming week. The only good elf is a dead elf reanimated and drafted into my roster.

Heliocentric
17-06-2012, 01:06 AM
I'm hoping to take out last games frustrations on Preston's Elves this coming week. The only good elf is a dead elf reanimated and drafted into my roster.
And then fouling his ex-teammates in the next drive.

Taxiderm immediately kill a Linerat, Fodder5b [...] Helio displays his inner cruelty by gangfouling a Rat with his freshly acquired Fodder5b Zombie.

Okay, It was Skaven, but it felt just as good.

Looking at my next opponent I decided to "think globally and act locally" by getting skills that would help me in the next game, but were generally good.

In turn I got mighty blow on my Wight and Grab (hello chain blocks) on my mummy.

Another team of AV7 Elves, lovely.

Note: I brought up Fodder 5B as he broke his neck(-1 AG) 2 games ago, and I am trying to decide whether I can justify keeping him on the roster. He has no skills and only 2 SPP, would it be wrong to retire him and rehire a skeleton by the same name?

NieA7
17-06-2012, 01:14 AM
NieA7 has quite the active imagination there. Of course, there's too much detail to really be convincing.

Damnit, always that one fatal mistake :(


I'm hoping to take out last games frustrations on Preston's Elves this coming week. The only good elf is a dead elf reanimated and drafted into my roster.

The only high point of the kerb stomp Chainsaw Hands administered to my team a few seasons back was killing a line elf with guard. Still got him as a zombie, he's only one SPP away from level 3. Damn MVP hog elf...


Note: I brought up Fodder 5B as he broke his neck(-1 AG) 2 games ago, and I am trying to decide whether I can justify keeping him on the roster. He has no skills and only 2 SPP, would it be wrong to retire him and rehire a skeleton by the same name?

It wouldn't be wrong, but in about 28 games I think I've only ever made one deliberate Ag roll with a zombie. It failed.

Heliocentric
17-06-2012, 01:27 AM
It wouldn't be wrong, but in about 28 games I think I've only ever made one deliberate Ag roll with a zombie. It failed.

My zombies/skeletons have made a half dozen dodges in their existences (its 4+with no negs) and they have caught a few interceptions and bombs ^_^

JayTee
17-06-2012, 05:21 PM
Another frustrating and demoralising loss for the Comics. You'd think a match where I think 6, or maybe 7, Skaven were in the injury pit including one dead Linerat, would be a good match for the Khemri...

Rattatatz (Skaven - mrpier) vs. Dead Comics Society (Khemri - Me)

3 - 1

The first two drives were nothing more than anger-inducing at how inept the skeletons were at doing anything other than falling over and failing on the simplest of Blocks, putting the Skaven 1-0 up in a handful of turns. Despite a touchback giving a TG the ball, the Comics were unable to clear a path through the Skaven nor even withstand a Gutter Runner who Blitzed the ball away, and the Skaven soon managed to run in their second TD. Both teams were taking a battering on KOs and injuries, with a Tomb Guardian picking up Niggling + MNG (yay for Decay...) and a dead 0SPP Linerat plus a handful of BHs on the Skaven, and some KOs on both sides. The Comic's fouler-skeleton at least managed to KO someone before being sent-off, giving him a reprieve from latrine duty for another match.

The second half started better for the Comics, and a ridiculous number of KOs and BHs soon left them with nearly a 2-to-1 player advantage which finally overcame their incompetence and they clawed back a TD. Kicking off to the Skaven, who at this point could only summon 8 players, everything looked fine, except of course a crapass kick gives the Skaven a touchback placing the ball in the hands of a GR on the halfway line. Despite stunning the GR and getting no less than 4 players to the ball the Comics were utterly unable to recover the ball nor prevent a GR from walking in, snatching the ball, and walking out to a simple TD.

The final drive fizzled out quickly with the Comics unable to move the ball more than one square.

Ugh. I've never had a more demoralising first-half in any Bloodbowl match, with a star TG going down to a Linerat and taking a niggle, and in a bizzare situation the Skaven seemed more able to Block than the Khemri. Of course since I'm a retard I allowed a Blitz-Ra to get surfed by that bloody Rat Ogre twice. The Skaven proved as resilient as they normally are, i.e. not-at-all, and took a lot of hard hits, but usually on Linerats and not on the important positionals. Mrpier had his fair share of poor luck; with some easy dodges failing, and a suitably karmic moment when a re-roll on an important Block brought up double-skulls, just after I'd failed with 3 2D Blocks to knock over a Gutter Runner.

With a team that can move faster than a one-legged sloth and has some actual ability to move the ball a draw could have been on the cards; but once again the Khemri proved how bloody hard it is to deal with a loose ball, making the third TD almost inevitable. I'm trying to think how I could have done any better but without Tackle or Grab I just could not clear a solitary GR from the ball to enable me to collect it. Perhaps I could have risked a 5+ pickup followed by a Dodge, but I know how pickups go with Khemri and I thought 3 2D blocks would at least given me one Pow. Should have learned I can't roll Pows for toffee when it's important ><

Despite a ludicrous 12/14 SPPs for injuries I think only a single player levelled who was only 1 SPP from levelling anyway. I'm fairly sure I've still got 3 skeletons sitting on 5 SPPs, and I think my second Blitz-Ra is going on for the World Record in the number of matches played without getting a single SPP.

Gorm
17-06-2012, 07:02 PM
Just played Deesnos high elves, it was a pretty close game with both teams threatening the others scoring chances. But luck was with my skaven and they won 2-1.

Cacamas
17-06-2012, 07:12 PM
As Gorm said, a tight game between my High Elves and his Skaven where some bad dice at crucial moments prevented me from getting a result. My 5th 2-1 loss from 11 games, it's becoming quite the bad habit with this team >:(

Gorm
17-06-2012, 07:53 PM
I skaven'd my skaven til skaven.

Xenny
18-06-2012, 02:01 AM
I've tried contacting Rhylok for our Div H match, but no luck yet...

Indefatigible Snoozer
18-06-2012, 11:06 AM
Could a kind admin roll on day 3 for Div C, if they have not done so already? Hoping to get my game in early this week.

Prester John
18-06-2012, 05:37 PM
I'm hoping to take out last games frustrations on Preston's Elves this coming week. The only good elf is a dead elf reanimated and drafted into my roster.

I've checked my diary and all i've got space for is Elfball. I hope that will be a satisfactory alternative.

Heliocentric
18-06-2012, 06:06 PM
Looking at The Brain's regular elves (no AG5 leap monstrosities here) I really need to think carefully about my formations. Last game I played with a "Maw" formation (essentially a large semi-circle I tested out against 2lab without conclusive results when receiving but my kicking formation is much less certain. With MV4 zombies simply getting walked by is a clear and present danger.
I also need to figure out how I feel about fouling them so hard he rage quits.
It's tough being Undead.

groovychainsaw
18-06-2012, 08:57 PM
Ok! Pretty much everyone on day 3, couple of defaults, but not too bad, all told - get going with your third and final matches everyone, you have... 8 days (because i am slow at validating - too many players!)

Rakysh
18-06-2012, 09:33 PM
WEHEHEHEHE, S4 on a Wight. Lovely stuff. I'm entirely sure he'll be punched into the ground at the soonest opportunity, but till then I intend to enjoy the S4. The Blodge werewolf got side-step and I gave a Zombie block as well. All in all a rather successful roll-on.

El Cubo
18-06-2012, 10:04 PM
The replacement for the st3 ulfwerener turned out to be a st5 ulf. Not bad.

Heliocentric
18-06-2012, 10:43 PM
The Brain's Masquerade Ballers(Elf) -Vs- Heliocentric's Taxederm(Und)
It was a game with it all, gang foul, Elfy ninjaship, dead elves raised as zombies fouling his previous teammates and turns passing where no elves were left standing.

I admit my shoddy cage making cost me the first touchdown at turn 8, but I made it back after the heat wave gave the elves an excuse to take a break from the horror scene happening on the pitch. I wanted in a touchdown on turn 14 without much fanfair as the fans were all focused on the gang fouling, It was quality fouling too, in the last 2 turns only a Elf loner lineman dared stand back up and despite both myself and brain trying to ruin his career he ended the match with 3 spp, unfortunately the Ballers lacked the funds to hire him without the win bonus.
The Brain's Masquerade Ballers(Elf) 1-Vs-1 Heliocentric's Taxederm(Und)

That's right ladies and gentlemen, a draw. With 1 loss 1 win and 1 draw this season and finally getting skills on both of my Wights? I honestly feel that Undead might be the right team for me. I know they will piss me off in various ways, but I'll always have fouling. Calrennin Maltathina the new Pro Elf Zombie will surely be throwing inch perfect long bombs once he gets used to his new skin, so thats good news.

All in all it was a great season, 2 elves killed, an even spread of success and defeat and I am hopefully going to see some raised utility from my Wights now they are not skill-less. 4 of my players are recruits from other teams, I'm extremely rich and really, what more could I ask?

Jarvis
19-06-2012, 12:57 AM
Ok! Pretty much everyone on day 3, couple of defaults, but not too bad, all told - get going with your third and final matches everyone, you have... 8 days (because i am slow at validating - too many players!)

Please don't default my game with kajo if it's not already been done, we should be good to game tonight.

Screwie
19-06-2012, 01:23 AM
Hey Jarvis, I already checked with groovy about it - our div 3 has been given a bit of leeway as all four of us are having scheduling issues so no worries :)

sketchseven
19-06-2012, 01:53 AM
Thinking ahead here ... if we stay in the same division once the season is complete, can we roll a new team and keep the same name/race? Thinking I might refresh the Longboatsmen now I have a better feel for the Norse types, although maybe sticking with it and just saving up for that second Ulf would be a better bet.

ntw
19-06-2012, 08:37 AM
<snip>...Note: I brought up Fodder 5B as he broke his neck(-1 AG) 2 games ago, and I am trying to decide whether I can justify keeping him on the roster. He has no skills and only 2 SPP, would it be wrong to retire him and rehire a skeleton by the same name?

If you want to replace him whilst maintaining my highly complex naming structure, then he must be called Fodder5bb.

Everblue
19-06-2012, 09:26 AM
Thinking ahead here ... if we stay in the same division once the season is complete, can we roll a new team and keep the same name/race? Thinking I might refresh the Longboatsmen now I have a better feel for the Norse types, although maybe sticking with it and just saving up for that second Ulf would be a better bet.

You already have two skill ups (including a blodging berserker) and the team is not really beaten up at all. I would wait and see what happens after your game against the dwarves. If you don't lose anyone killed or seriously injured then why not keep it on?

You might even win the division this season! A draw for me and Xenny and a win for you would take you into the giddy heights of division G...

JayTee
19-06-2012, 09:38 AM
My superb form at rolling level ups continues; 28 levels over the lifetime of the team and I've not even rolled a single stat up :(

groovychainsaw
19-06-2012, 10:48 AM
So, after last season's discussions (which were a bit late to have any impact), is there any desire to change the format of the divisions?

There's a lot of people here now, so ideas to simplify applications/changes etc. would be good as that is the most disruptive element. It owuld be great to move people over to the new season in just a day or two rather than the week+ it currently takes. A challenge league + spreadsheet would have been ideal, but we ruled out managing it that way as there is no ability for admins to default/reset games in there(?), which is an important feature for us.

So...we have to have even numbers of teams in each division, 4 is probably a sweet spot for each division to get people in/out quickly (6 man divisions are a consideration, but an early dropout would make a division less fun). We don't want to use cyanide's promotion system (as its solely done on TV in case of a tie! Shocking). So we still need separate divisions in some form. Any ideas? I saw the ideas for a 'shallower' tree of divisions, and I'm happy to consider that, but it may leave some people up against some big players fairly quickly, which is either fun/horrible, depending on what you're here for :-). Anyway, all ideas gratefully received, bring on your suggestions.

Everblue
19-06-2012, 11:09 AM
My opinion (for what it’s worth as a newbie) is that I like the four team structure.

Can I suggest that one way to streamline the signup procedure would be to allow some players to run two teams if we don’t get an exact number divisible by four? The new teams should be rookies and would join in at the bottom of the league. They get removed in a later season if we have a number divisible by four.

ntw
19-06-2012, 11:17 AM
<snip>...Can I suggest that one way to streamline the signup procedure would be to allow some players to run two teams if we don’t get an exact number divisible by four? The new teams should be rookies and would join in at the bottom of the league. They get removed in a later season if we have a number divisible by four.

That tends to happen currently when we are just a team or two short.

ntw
19-06-2012, 11:24 AM
4 teams per Div is a good number since it makes the seasons tick over nice and fast, minimises disruption due to dropouts, etc. Also from an admin perspective, it is fairly simple to sort out the inevitable fixture issues which arise.

The obvious suggestion for a change would be to have 4 feeder divs each feeding the championships, but then how would we manage promotions and demotions from the champs?

The additional factor is the fluid nature of the Divs - we have varied between having about 7 Divs, up to our current highpoint (?) of 16 Divs

Screwie
19-06-2012, 11:24 AM
Where is Jiiim's non-euclidean web of a division tree? I liked that. :)

The general notion that there are two ladders (with or without crossover in the middle) to the championship with X feeder divisions at the base is one I would endorse.

Oooh! I have an idea, heavily based on Jiiims' design. Fair warning, this one might be a bit mad:

---

The premise:

In place of multiple feeder divisions at the base of the table, how about a single challenge-based league?

The game schedule is completely open, even players in the upper divisions can have an use teams in the feeder. The best 4 teams each season that aren't controlled by a coach who already has a team in the upper divisions get promoted into the regular divisions, the four worst performers in the DoD get relegated to the challenge league.

(The league gets its scores reset at the end of each season of course.)

Pros:

This could reduce the amount of admin needed between seasons a bit, with less arbitrary activation and deactivation of lower divisions.

It would also allow rookie teams to get a lot more games in if they need it before advancing up the ladder.

Hell, maybe even use THE Challenge League for this? This would place that league in a greater context (and get it a bit more action too).

Cons:

One downside is the challenge league's lack of moderation, but while this makes it inappropriate for the upper DoDs this is not such an issue without a strict schedule.

Also it might all blow up horribly, with a particularly strong team getting into the lower DoDs at some point.

---

Anyway, brainstorm over. I've not given this a huge amount of thought and it might be utter balls so please, deconstruct and disagree at your leisure.

EDIT: Oh, one other suggestion from me: If we do change our format, perhaps start a new DoD thread with a new opening post? Kinda of a fresh start and an escape form this 266-page monster which the forum's search feature is ill-equipped to handle...

EDIT AGAIN: Here is the previous discussion regarding ladders, courtesy of Jiiim, Jolima and NieA7:


This is one potential to sort out our fiddling. USING ALL MY SKILLS OF GRAPHIC DESIGN

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1328&d=1338114427

Still 4-team leagues, but the difference is that one gets promoted and two get relegated, like the championship is now. Two reasons that it might be better:
* The path to the championship is half as long so it won't take the year it would currently take to join the divisions new and win.
* The cascade effect of someone higher-up dropping out is less pronounced. At the moment if someone falls off the championship then you have to move 8 people to shore it up. In this one you'd only have to move 3 or 4.

Personally I'd like that there'd be even more movement between years, but others might not.


I like it. Maybe with a few more cross-overs so the two halves aren't completely isolated. (Edit: I think my image actually fails to do this, so some better graph or even one that switches between seasons.)

E.g.: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1329&d=1338117257

But that's not gonna happen this season. So for the current situation... I'll refrain from making any other suggestions and say that we should just go with ntw's plan. No suggestion would be entirely fair, so groovy will just have to try boosting Prester back up by two-three divisions next season.


Choosing the divs at random from a pool of going up/staying/going down would keep things mixed nicely, you could even put a block in to stop anyone facing the same person twice in a row - that way we can keep the non-euclidean structure without the Cthulian tentacles linking it all together. Even if people dropped out a bit late in the day it'd allow for easier re-shuffling.

EDIT AGAIN AGAIN: Tried to break up my gigantipost up a bit with boldening.

ntw
19-06-2012, 11:29 AM
brainfart response to your brainfart post Screwie - it could be open to abuse. Personally I'd like to think that we have the cream of the BB players, none of whom would stoop to such desperate measures as match fixing or being overly picky with fixtures, but the possibility would be there...

groovychainsaw
19-06-2012, 11:32 AM
I'm.. not sure about using a challenge league as a feeder, with say, 7 divisions in a tree above. It cuts down on admin, but I don't know if it might be a bit of a barrier to entry - in some ways its quite nice to play organised games against other new people in the lower divisions, rather than being thrown into a pot with lots of others. On the other hand, it lets you play more games if you want and build a team quicker. Picking the 'best' teams out of there would require some thought, too.

Other than that, 4 teams/div is definitely the sweet spot and is unlikely to change (unless someone can mathemagically prove a better system). Jiiim's non-euclidean tree is also an option, it would require some overhauling of our division structure, but would work ok. The only addition I would add is, rather than a 'web' of promotions/demotions, I'd rather randomly assign people to a division, otherwise I'd probably make a mistake, particularly if someone drops out.

Screwie
19-06-2012, 11:40 AM
Promotion from a challenge-based feeder league would be strictly done on points - the "best" are those who have the highest score (and no other team currently active in the DoDs) since the last points reset, which should be every season. The scoring system takes number of games played into account and new/applying teams are most likely to be most active.

Building on Jiiim and Jolima's suggestion. NieA7 presented a good idea to save on the headache of criss-crossing promotion/demotion lanes - just randomise the promotion from the feeder leagues up the ladder. With 4/8 points of entry, anyone demoted to the feeders and later promoted would be unlikely to head back up the same path (or could even be specifically blocked from doing so).

I just edited NieA7's quote into my megapost above.

Squiz
19-06-2012, 12:12 PM
I am with groovy here, a Challenge League format for entry into the Divisions would mean that you have to "qualify" for the real fun. Which wouldn't be fun at all. Also, such a Challenge Feader League could easily be dominated by teams that profit from lower TVs, like Norse, Amazons, Woodelves, Dwarves, etc. in comparison to more balanced teams. Sure, slower developing teams could stick around for a while and get their TV and skills up, but that would in turn mean that some coaches would have to stick around longer to advance and also that lower Divisions might see some pretty nasty matchups.

Therefore, I'd say that we go with Jiiiiim's/Jolima's suggestion, as extended by NieA7, which could be extended with additional Divisions at the bottom if need be.

Janek
19-06-2012, 12:21 PM
I think it's fine as it is.

El Cubo
19-06-2012, 12:23 PM
A couple of ideas, don't know if they're workable:

Could the feeder league be replaced with some sort of self-organizing bottom tier divisions? The idea would be that four coaches would organize their division by themselves after finishing, they could "attach" their division to the bottom of that binary tree that Jiiiiim presented. Then after the official season would end, these divisions would be merged into the actual hierarchy with winners getting promoted etc.

Another thing would be to increase the abstraction and form some sort of division groups where we'd have, say, 4 divisions, which would mean that there would be four groups. They would operate independently, and after a season, the winners of each league would promote and the losers would demote. The middle ones would rotate inside the division and get promoted if the higher tier groups would need more meat. These groups could have their own administrators and could operate pretty independently. This would spread the administrational work to several administrators. Would also mean a shallower league: well-performing teams could get to the top after four seasons.

Everblue
19-06-2012, 01:49 PM
My suggestion - We amalgamate the current structure into Tiers. We currently have 16 divisions with 4 teams each (we don't have a division 5 at present do we?). That's 64 teams.

The championship stays as a 4 team league.
The top 12 teams become Tier 1
The next 12 teams become Tier 2
And so on, for 5 Tiers in total

That makes 64 teams (60 x 5 + 4).

Each tier is split into three divisions of four, and the admins assign the teams of each tier into a division at random.

If you win your division you get promoted to the next Tier. The championship is made up of the league champion from the previous season, plus the three divisional winners from the previous Tier 1 season. If you get into the championship but don't win the league you drop down to Tier 1.

If you finish bottom of your division you drop down a tier.

Advantages of the structure:
- Shallower than the current league with 5 tiers plus the championship (as opposed to 8 plus the championship at present)
- You can play against anyone in your tier, so you have the "non-euclidean" structure as mentioned earlier
- Should be easier to organise the divisions because the admins can put the teams of a Tier into divisions as they see fit - if you have a no-show or drop out from a tier, just bump up enough people from the tiers below.

Disadvantages
- Lots of circulation in the top division. If you don't win the league you need to wait a whole season until you can have another crack at it.

EDIT - With a challenge league feeder wouldn't there be a risk that the teams in the challenge league could avoid playing the bashier opponents? Could be harder for say a dwarf or *cough* chaos team to get lots of games. I know I'd certainly rather play against flings all the time.

EDIT EDIT - There' s not an awful lot wrong with the current structure, mind.

boots468
19-06-2012, 02:00 PM
.... The only addition I would add is, rather than a 'web' of promotions/demotions, I'd rather randomly assign people to a division, otherwise I'd probably make a mistake, particularly if someone drops out.

Randomly assigning people (or trying to weight the divisions to keep a good balance of bashy and non-bashy) does seem like a better idea than a convoluted web of promotions and demotions, and allows greater flexibilty for drop outs.

One issue with this though is I guess it'd be top team promoted, bottom two demoted? This could lead to more dead rubber games and less of a feeling of climbing a ladder upwards. Instead of exponentially widening the ladder downwards, we could just double it from step three downwards, so only the top three divisions suffer having half their teams demoted. *(This would be keeping randomised placing once you're in a tier). I.e. Option B below rather than A.

a)1456b)1457




EDIT * - seems very similar to that Ninja Everblue's, just with keeping Tier 2 as 2 Divs, and 4 divs per tier rather than 3.

Zoraster
19-06-2012, 02:06 PM
In place of multiple feeder divisions at the base of the table, how about a single challenge-based league?

I’m not a fan of using an unscheduled feeder for a scheduled league. Two very different formats both on and off the table. My biggest issue with the concept would be time zone related. Right now we accommodate non-European coaches easily enough but would there be enough coaches to provide a new Khryses with 'out of hours' games in an unscheduled feeder? People make time for scheduled games but play unscheduled ones when it suits them.

For what it’s worth an unscheduled feeder would definitely be an insurmountable barrier for some; I can state that with confidence as I’m one of them :) Two hours is a huge amount of time for some people to have free on an ad hoc basis. I could never be relegated into/reroll to an unscheduled feeder so that would be the end of my time in the DoD. It may not be a large constituency but I doubt I'm totally unique in this respect.

ChainsawHands
19-06-2012, 02:33 PM
What exactly is the problem we're trying to fix with the current system?

I know it takes a while to get everyone signed up, but we can't use a challenge league + spreadsheet (no admin defaults / resets) and we mostly seem pretty happy with 4 teams/division, so unless the problem is "it's insufficiently complicated" I say we leave it as it is...

Screwie
19-06-2012, 02:37 PM
@Zoraster: That's a good point Zoraster and one I didn't think of, thanks for raising it.

I have no particular affection for my brainstorm above the other ideas Jiiim/Jolima/Everblue/boots have mentioned, I just raised it as I thought it might be a potentially interesting avenue to explore.

@ChainsawHands: Because of drop-outs and restarts, my current team has shared a division with Kajo's team for almost their entire career. Kajo's a nice chap and all, but I would like a bit more variation.

Also the road to the upper two divisions and the championship seems really long (although that is not as much a bother for me as the other issue).

Both these issues could be addressed with a broader, flatter ladder to climb. A tier system as boots described would also do the trick. Random allocations of promotions/demotions would also help.

I'd be happy if any or all of those changes came to be. I vote is for as-yet-unspecified change!

EDIT: More words.

sketchseven
19-06-2012, 02:40 PM
I don't think a challenge feeder is the way forward. I know it's only been my first season in the League but the 4-teams-to-a-division structure works well for me. I think either a move to the tier structure that Everblue outlined or keeping it as it is.

groovychainsaw
19-06-2012, 03:00 PM
No, I'm against a challenge feeder as well, I think, I wouldn't want to face that as a new player, for many of the reasons outlined by people above, so lets put that to one side.

So, given that, what's the general desire for broader, 4-division-wide 'tiers' lower down (So keep champs, then 2 parallel then 4 divs every level below that)? Whilst the admin overhead (in terms of people applying etc., waiting on folk to start our season) would be the same, it gives me more scope for moving people sideways to rearrange and offers a quicker march to the top for everyone. This leads to the obvious consequence that you could quite easily face 500TV+ differences if you get a swift rise through the ranks. Also, quite powerful teams, after a pair of poor seasons, could be facing some fairly new up-and-comers. Is that more fun or less fun? I can't decide :-).

I guess I'm looking at the newer players as much as us oldies for thoughts here, would a shallower structure have made it more appealing for you to play (for the chance at GLORY!) or was the idea of a lower, noob-friendly few seasons before GLORY more appealing?

President Weasel
19-06-2012, 03:29 PM
No, I'm against a challenge feeder as well, I think, I wouldn't want to face that as a new player, for many of the reasons outlined by people above, so lets put that to one side.

So, given that, what's the general desire for broader, 4-division-wide 'tiers' lower down (So keep champs, then 2 parallel then 4 divs every level below that)? Whilst the admin overhead (in terms of people applying etc., waiting on folk to start our season) would be the same, it gives me more scope for moving people sideways to rearrange and offers a quicker march to the top for everyone. This leads to the obvious consequence that you could quite easily face 500TV+ differences if you get a swift rise through the ranks. Also, quite powerful teams, after a pair of poor seasons, could be facing some fairly new up-and-comers. Is that more fun or less fun? I can't decide :-).

I guess I'm looking at the newer players as much as us oldies for thoughts here, would a shallower structure have made it more appealing for you to play (for the chance at GLORY!) or was the idea of a lower, noob-friendly few seasons before GLORY more appealing?

I like things the way they are; the long slog to the top makes being at or near the top more satisfying.

JayTee
19-06-2012, 03:31 PM
I really like Everblue's tier system because it mixes up the teams a lot more than currently. I seem to regularly play the same people repeatedly, which is fine but there's not a whole lot movement around at the 'higher' leagues.

The current system works for me, but I'd quite like to at least give the tier system a whirl for a season just to see how much variety it could give.

One thing I would be against is any kind of filter challenge league, for similar reasons to Zoraster, but also any league/system that does some kind of TV-filtering. One of the biggest downfalls of the Cyanide matching system is that it is TV based, while one of the biggest strengths of the DoD is that you can go from giving away 200k in inducements in one match to receiving the same again in your next match. That keeps coaches on their toes, and some teams (like 'flings or Goblins) are somewhat designed around having a TV disadvantage.

Everblue
19-06-2012, 03:32 PM
As long as I never have to play Heliocentric's gang foulers, I'll be happy.

Also - I would like a flatter league for more of a chance of GLORY. I think a TV difference of 500+ in relatively rare cases would be be a price worth paying.

Also also - The ability to assign teams within a tier to divisions as you see fit should enable you (in theory at least) to smooth out some of these imbalances.

groovychainsaw
19-06-2012, 03:45 PM
I'd prefer to keep team allocation as 'random' in most cases if i could everblue, as I think it would be hard to agree as to what a 'fair' division would look like - all bashy, 50/50 bashy/agile, all same TV, wide range of TVs?

Random drawn lots to assign people to divisions in a tier (we could have a live drawing, FA cup style!??) with the ability to subsequently 'seed' if opponents ended up facing each other again (i currently prevent more than 2 people ending up in the same division again where at all possible, and I'd stick to that to try and give people variety in their opposition).

Screwie
19-06-2012, 03:57 PM
I like things the way they are; the long slog to the top makes being at or near the top more satisfying.

I tend to think getting there should be easier, but staying up there is the real challenge. :)


(we could have a live drawing, FA cup style!??)

Hahaha, I like this idea! :D Not sure how it would work, though...

Heliocentric
19-06-2012, 03:59 PM
I don't want challenge leagues(Divisions?) to have anything to do with the league. Can you imagine anyone but fellow undead or maybe goblins welcoming a fouling opponent? It's the sweet fear of players with loads of skills which make div o' death exciting to play.

Got an Elf with blodge, fend, st5 sidestep and agility 6? GANGFOUL, welcome to the team.

boots468
19-06-2012, 04:10 PM
I'm in agreement with Screwie on this one - getting to the top shouldn't seem unsurmountable but staying up near the top should be tricky - at the moment it would take a new/rebooting player a minimum of 8 months of solid back-to-back promotions to get to play in the top div (barring drop-outs).

Live random draws would be fun too - hoping to put in with stunty teams and to try and avoid any notorious gang foulers!

potatoedoughnut
19-06-2012, 05:10 PM
Another vote for no challenge system, but that seems to be pretty dead at the moment.

If there is a system that introduces more variety with same/less work from admins I'm all for it. The top couple divisions have certainly developed some regulars, so if there is a way to get new players up faster that would be nice. I would like to play against all these lovely new folks, not that I don't enjoy playing Jiiiiim's super lizards :)

Jiiiiim
19-06-2012, 05:14 PM
I like the way I'm an end-of-level boss for you.

potatoedoughnut
19-06-2012, 05:18 PM
I like the way I'm an end-of-level boss for you.

When was the last time you lost a game?

Jiiiiim
19-06-2012, 05:58 PM
February >_>

President Weasel
19-06-2012, 07:01 PM
It's not a coincidence that the "regulars" are where they are, it's a function of most of them being better at Blood Bowl at me, and indeed most of the people in the league. Any league that sorts by merit is likely to have the same double handful of people in the top bracket and the couple of brackets below, changing places with each other every couple of seasons - apart from when they take a break and start a new team and make their way up again.

sketchseven
19-06-2012, 07:13 PM
I think the shallower tier system would be a nice change up - can always try it for the next season as a taster and see how we get on. I think those underdog matches of low TV vs high TV could be pretty cool; sure you might come up against a higher TV team, but there's nothing like electrocuting their star player with a bit of underhand magic and stealing the ball for the win.

potatoedoughnut
19-06-2012, 07:32 PM
It's not a coincidence that the "regulars" are where they are, it's a function of most of them being better at Blood Bowl at me, and indeed most of the people in the league. Any league that sorts by merit is likely to have the same double handful of people in the top bracket and the couple of brackets below, changing places with each other every couple of seasons - apart from when they take a break and start a new team and make their way up again.

That's true, but I'm sure some of the new(er) players are quite good at BB; it just takes them 8 months or whatever to get into the top couple divisions.

Screwie
19-06-2012, 07:36 PM
Not debating that point Mr President, even in a shallower system the cream will stay at the top.

The path to the top, even for a taste, still takes an age though.

Gorm
19-06-2012, 07:38 PM
Can someone reset mine and el cubos game in div 5? We had connection problems on turn 11 and it was a really good game. DAMN YOU CYANIDEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

El Cubo
19-06-2012, 07:40 PM
Gorm and I got the cyanide treatment. Div 5 match between Cheeze it! and Wayward Gladiators need a reset. And it was such a hair-raising match, too.

e: You can tell Gorm coaches a skaven team, he's as fast here as he is on the pitch!

LowKey
19-06-2012, 07:58 PM
Gorm and I got the cyanide treatment. Div 5 match between Cheeze it! and Wayward Gladiators need a reset. And it was such a hair-raising match, too.

e: You can tell Gorm coaches a skaven team, he's as fast in the bedroom as he is on the pitch!

Fixed that for you

edit: also with regards to this league buisness im not fussed either way, i just wanna rock

El Cubo
19-06-2012, 08:11 PM
Fixed that for you

Thank you, kind sir.

By the way, have other noticed that if both sides end the Blood Bowl process at the same time, the match won't get registered? I'm not so sure about this so I'd like to have it confirmed.

Heliocentric
19-06-2012, 08:15 PM
The vault has been locked, the tomb has had its boulder rolled and the sarcophagus is sealed.

TaxeDerm have returned to the boardroom showing 15% growth despite a general recession of the markets.

But rest easy, if one day elves with too many skills threaten the economy? TaxeDerm will raise from their shallow graves to claim the wicked for their ranks.

So... Dark elves, I need puns dammit.

Squiz
19-06-2012, 08:20 PM
Just finished my Day3 game against Cyberpunkdreams. Match report lateron, just that much: 2 deaths, 1 one them saved by my Apoth (my Lineorc was not as lucky...). Still, one of my Black Orcs got Broken Ribs.

Rock, Paper, Sneaky Git (Orc, me) 2 - 0 Black Bombers (Goblin, Cyberpunkdreams)

cyberpunkdreams
19-06-2012, 08:24 PM
Squirrelfanatic and I just played an absolutely brutal, chaotic match (his orcs vs my gobbos) which resulted in one death each (would have been two for the orcs without a helpful apothecary) and a whole load of casualties.

Edit: *snap*

Rhylok
19-06-2012, 08:35 PM
I've unfortunately not gotten Xenny's attempts at contact. Added him on Steam, no luck there. We'll try and get it sorted, mebbe.

Everblue
19-06-2012, 08:46 PM
Rhylok - he tried through the Division H subgroup. Sketch has messaged you there too I think about this week.

Xenny - If you're reading this - reply to my message about playing this week or I will consign your soul to Slaanesh.

Xenny
19-06-2012, 08:48 PM
Rhylok - I'm free to play now if you are?

Everblue - will do.

NieA7
19-06-2012, 09:47 PM
Oooh, structure charts, it's like an interesting version of the day job.

While I'm fine with the divs the way they are being able to move between seasons faster would be nice, and anything that makes the admin's life easier can only be a good thing. It would be nice to have a bit more mixing across the Divs too, loads of coaches have joined since I did but I've hardly had a chance to play any of them (or their delicious, lower TV teams). I was thinking of something along these lines, with 4 teams per Div:
http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i392/NieAUnder7/g4117.png

What Happens
The numbers refer to your finishing position in the division, 1 for top, 4 for bottom etc.

Alpha 1: Your winner! Stay in Alpha next season
Alpha 2-4: Relegated to Beta

Beta 1: Promoted to Alpha
Beta 2: Stay in Beta next season
Beta 3-4: Relegated to Gamma

Gamma 1: Promoted to Beta
Gamma 2: Stay in Gamma next season
Gamma 3-4: Entered into relegation pool

Omega 1: Promoted to Gamma
Omega 2-4: Stay in Omega next season

Teams are randomised according to level across seasons, so everyone who ends up in Beta gets put in a hat and divided out again across three Divs. The relegation pool from Gamma (obviously we'll need to think of suitably Blood Bowl-ey names for the levels) is shared across the whole level, with the number of people relegated determined by the number of Omega Divs. For example, with 6 Omega Divs the bottom 6 teams from positions 3 and 4 across all of Gamma would be relegated to Omega, with the top 6 teams from Omega getting promoted. This might mean the bottom two teams from Divs 5, 6 and 7 get relegated while nobody from Divs 8, 9 and 10 go down, depending on the points and TD/Cas difference.

On the plus side this mixes things up a bit for the teams while still allowing for randomised promotions (and hopefully therefore easier admin). It will also work for anything from 10 to 22 Divs, which should be plenty for the foreseeable future. On the minus side promotion will be tough to earn, and how the Omega div works might not be clear for everyone.

Rakysh
19-06-2012, 09:50 PM
So... Dark elves, I need puns dammit.
What's the team scheme? If it was me, I'd name them after evil Disney characters. I'm not sure why.

Screwie
19-06-2012, 10:07 PM
Oooh yeah famous villains.

Or alternatively, famous bastards.

The Brain
19-06-2012, 10:10 PM
Surely all Disney characters are evil.

Rakysh
19-06-2012, 10:13 PM
Or alternatively, famous bastards.
That's genius. All the names have to be appended with "the Bastard" though

"William the Bastard" etc

Xenny
19-06-2012, 10:15 PM
Rhylok and I just went to get our game only to find it had already been admined... oh well.

Squiz
19-06-2012, 10:17 PM
Oh my Nuffle. My Starplayer, Heliocentric (Blitzer), has leveled up yet again. He's really hogging all the SPPs, mostly because he happens to be around when things look ugly and someone needs to take out the trash... and the ball. He has just got another MVP from last match and now is sitting at 32SPPs. If he ever dies, my TV will drop right into the cellar.

Right, Helio, your Orcish complement looks as follow:
Block, Mighty Blow, Tackle, Doubles.

Usually, the next skill should have been Piling On. And now, well, I guess I have to think of something. Hmm... Sidestep?

Prester John
19-06-2012, 10:21 PM
Oh my Nuffle. My Starplayer, Heliocentric (Blitzer), has leveled up yet again. He's really hogging all the SPPs, mostly because he happens to be around when things look ugly and someone needs to take out the trash... and the ball. He has just got another MVP from last match and now is sitting at 32SPPs. If he ever dies, my TV will drop right into the cellar.

Right, Helio, your Orcish complement looks as follow:
Block, Mighty Blow, Tackle, Doubles.

Usually, the next skill should have been Piling On. And now, well, I guess I have to think of something. Hmm... Sidestep?

Pass ? Catch ? All star players have one of those surely?

cyberpunkdreams
19-06-2012, 10:25 PM
Fend, surely? ;)

Screwie
19-06-2012, 10:30 PM
Jump Up, then Piling On later?

potatoedoughnut
19-06-2012, 11:34 PM
Jump up is good if you want to get piling on. Or you could give him dodge or sidestep and then give him guard or stand firm (don't take SS and SF).


About NieA7's plan: it looks like doing the promotions/demotions from gamma to omega would be kind of a pain. Also, how is omega structured? As 6 different "ladders" like we have now?

NieA7
19-06-2012, 11:59 PM
Right, Helio, your Orcish complement looks as follow:
Block, Mighty Blow, Tackle, Doubles.

Usually, the next skill should have been Piling On. And now, well, I guess I have to think of something. Hmm... Sidestep?

Hard to look past dodge unless you're not planning on taking it on any doubles. Other than that Jump Up/Sidestep depending on whether he's a killer blitzer or a blitzing blitzer.


About NieA7's plan: it looks like doing the promotions/demotions from gamma to omega would be kind of a pain. Also, how is omega structured? As 6 different "ladders" like we have now?

It's not a good plan if it's not overcomplicated.

Gamma to Omega would treat the bottom two teams from every Gamma Div as if they were their own Div and go on points first, then TD/Cas etc - a pain compared to the other levels but that's the price for having Omega flexible. Omega would be flat like the other levels, the only difference is that it's a random size so we can accommodate more or less coaches as needed.

Gorm
20-06-2012, 12:00 AM
Fixed that for you

I learnt from the best.

El Cubo
20-06-2012, 12:03 AM
That's genius. All the names have to be appended with "the Bastard" though

"William the Bastard" etc

Don't forget Sean the Irish Bastard (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVN3SYspXoY&feature=player_detailpage#t=156s)!

ntw
20-06-2012, 12:04 AM
Screwie beat me, it was the first of 2 Blood Bowl losses tonight. I am sad. :(

NieA7
20-06-2012, 12:10 AM
Don't forget Sean the Irish Bastard (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVN3SYspXoY&feature=player_detailpage#t=156s)!

Tried Bastards before, Cyanide won't let them through :(

Heliocentric
20-06-2012, 12:29 AM
Right, Helio, your Orcish complement looks as follow:
Block, Mighty Blow, Tackle, Doubles.

Usually, the next skill should have been Piling On. And now, well, I guess I have to think of something. Hmm... Sidestep?

It is rather simple what situations am I not equipped for?

Dodgers splat, BD's Splat, what's wrong with this picture?

WHAT IF THEY ARE LYING DOWN

+Sneaky git.

Everblue
20-06-2012, 12:54 AM
Match report

Xennys Berserkers (Norse) vs Doomdark's Revenge (me, Chaos)

RPS Divisions of Death division H, match 3

Xenny's team won the toss and decided to kick, immediately buggering up my plan for the game. I had 90k of inducements and induced a babe.

The match proceeded as expected between a rookie Norse team and a rookie Chaos team, with Xenny's thrower immediately failing to pick up the ball despite the use of one of his team's two rerolls. The stage was set for, basically, a massive untidy fight in the centre of the pitch.

A key moment was the fact that the Yheti was dragged out of position by frenzy pushbacks and was quite a long way from the ball, so the Chaos warriors' high strength became more and more of a deciding factor.

The crowd (well, ok, I) gasped in excitement when Lord Doomdark himself picked up the ball and made for the line, only for him to be pulled to the ground by a squad of sweating Scandinavians. Finally the Beastman Ice Fear grabbed the ball and managed to cross the line for the score. 0-1 to Doomdark's Revenge

I kicked to Xenny again, and he threw players forward in an attempt to get a quick passing TD. Unfortunately his receivers decided to fall over, and the half ended. 0-1 to Doomdark's Revenge at half time

In the second half the Chaos team receive the ball and began an orderly march through the outnumbered Norse to the line. All was going well until the Chaos coach (who was somewhat drunk on gin at that stage) moved the wrong damn beastman to provide an assist and finished the turn with the ball carrier easily blitzable by the cheery Norse, and with neither side having a reroll left.

Some rather cackhanded punching ensued on both sides, but the chaos warrior The Lord of Thrall managed to pick up the ball, his markers were chain-pushed away and he lumbered in for the touchdown on turn 16. 0-2 to Doomdark's Revenge

Xenny had one turn to beat up the 3 unfortunate beastmen on the LOS and the game finished 0-2 to Doomdark's Revenge.

Many thanks for the game Xenny.

EDIT - I should say that the 6 man foul I used to remove the Yheti in the second half was something even the mighty Heliocentric would have approved of...

Heliocentric
20-06-2012, 01:13 AM
EDIT - I should say that the 6 man foul I used to remove the Yheti in the second half was something even the mighty Heliocentric would have approved of...[/I]
AV8, 5 assists, effective AV3, 1 in 36 failure
(1 in 6 ejection)+(1 in 6 ejection(96.333%))
(21/36 stun, 9/36 KO, 6/36 Cas(96.333%))

Yeah, certainly worth it to get rid of ST5

X_kot
20-06-2012, 01:16 AM
I've always wondered what goes through the mind of a serial fouler.

Xenny
20-06-2012, 01:19 AM
AV8, 5 assists, effective AV3, 1 in 36 failure
(1 in 6 ejection)+(1 in 6 ejection(96.333%))
(21/36 stun, 9/36 KO, 6/36 Cas(96.333%))

Yeah, certainly worth it to get rid of ST5

Yes, it was a good game. The initial pick-up-with-reroll failure right need the half way line set the tone! The Yheti has +AV though, so effective AV4. It resulted in a KO and ejection.

Everblue
20-06-2012, 01:25 AM
I particularly dislike the claw skill on the Yheti.

Fortunately Xenny's does not have mighty blow yet, and if Rhlok and Sketch can manufacture a draw in their final game I will not have to play against the terrifying bastard next season.

somanyrobots
20-06-2012, 05:02 AM
Thank you, kind sir.

By the way, have other noticed that if both sides end the Blood Bowl process at the same time, the match won't get registered? I'm not so sure about this so I'd like to have it confirmed.

The exact same thing happened to The Brain and I in our last match.

Regarding NieA7's plan and general restructuring: as a slightly (5th season now?) new player, I actually rather like the current system. Annoying to comprehend how long it would take to ascend to championhood, but less annoying after I got myself promoted up and promptly knocked back down. The big virtues it has are #1: 4 teams per div, which is wonderful for meaningful games and doesn't look in danger of changing at all, and #2: real feelings of progress at all levels. So yes, when I started in Div E, it looked like it would take forever to climb all the way up the ladder. But it was more palatable because moving up from Div E to Div 4 felt like a real achievement. I like NieA7's plan for the most part, but worry that the Omega tier (especially since up to 50% of the DoD would be in it) might eliminate that sense of achievement, with its limited opportunities for promotion. That would disproportionately hit new players, too.

boots468
20-06-2012, 07:24 AM
For the new league system -

I think the main reason we are doing this is for easier admin (especially with drop outs), with the secondary goals of mixing players up a bit more and possibly decreasing the time gap from new teams to potential top teams.

Switching to a tier system with randomised team placement inside the tier seems to solve the admin and mixing it up aims, but for the widening of the divisions, how about Everblue's idea from a few pages ago? I.e. instead of a pyramid of

Alpha: Champs
Beta: Divs 2, 3, 4
Gamma: Divs 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
Omega: The Rest

It's be more like now but with three columns rather than two, i.e.:

Alpha: Champs
Beta: Divs 2, 3, 4
Gamma: Divs 5, 6, 7
Delta: Divs 8, 9, 10
Epsilon: Divs 11, 12, 13
Zeta : Divs 14, 15, 16
etc

This would still decrease the gap from top to bottom, and give the admins more scope for switching players around but keep a more similar structure to the moment (because we're all broadly OK with the current scheme, and change is scary :-) )

Squiz
20-06-2012, 08:11 AM
@Prester: Nice try, Mr. Pointyear, but no thanks. Altough I like the Orcish Passing Game TM, these skills won't be of much use on the muscular mayhem that is Helio. ;)

@Cyberpunkdreams: This is not a puny Elf who is afraid of getting punched in the face! :)

@Screwie, Potatoe: Jump Up was the second skill I was thinking about. Since this guy was designed as a killer anyways, I might go with that. Then Piling on as the next skill.

@NieA7: Yeah, Dodge was the third skill I had a look at. ;) Protection against Defender Stumbles is nice, as is having someone who can pull some desperation moves towards the endzone or my own backfield. However, I am not sure if I want to go for Dodge on all my doubles on this team and 1-2 dodgers don't help a lot when facing Tackle. Also, I'm trying to improve on my positional game and to reduce the amount of high risk actions. Maybe I'll take sidestep on one of the other Blitzers (I've still got some players without a single level-up and therefore room for double rolls).

@Heliocentric: I feel like you should have the last word in this, but Sneaky Git (which is still completely lacking on this team!) is just too much of a risk for him. As one of the main engines of the team, I don't want to have a huge lump of TV being sent off in exchange for a possible KO result against an opponent. I will get me some fouling power with my next Lineorc though (Quantacat has bitten the dust last game, taking a fist full of SPPs with him), maybe even hire a Goblin dedicated to this job.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone, I'll think it through once more. At least I've got a bit of time to decide until the next season starts. I also really need to start getting some Guard on my team. Nuffle's blessings have provided me with either non-bashy opponents or silly dice-luck until now, but I fear the day I have to face Chaos or Khemri teams.

Dentharial
20-06-2012, 08:24 AM
I like the idea of having fewer steps up the ladder, and allowing admins to do some sort of random draw for the actual divisions within the 'tiers'.

This has nothing to do with me wanting to climb the ladder faster (I actually agree with the couple of people who are saying that the sense of accomplishment is really strong now, and that rearranging it might lessen that).

Rather, I think that this style will have 3 major benefits:
1. It'll make adminning easier. You simply decide on promotions/relegations and then random draw.
2. It'll feel less punishing to reboot or need to take a break
3. This is the big one. I think it'll result in much more social mixing, which is ultimately one of the most fun parts of playing in this nice, friendly league. Eventually, I'd love to see if we can complicate things a little more by having some sort of system in place where certain players can 'request' a particular opponent in order to continue a long-running rivalry. I have only vague ideas about how such a system would work and I don't think we should think about adding this right now, but it's the sort of fun little extra that might be possible with this new system and is impossible with the current ladder.

I have one more consideration to throw into the mix: Maybe it's better to keep with the current system for a couple more seasons and see what this new edition is bringing? If it's possible to incorporate it into the current league, that might be a better time for a shakeup?

El Cubo
20-06-2012, 08:27 AM
That column system doesn't scale well, however. Although I don't know if there is any expected increase in the amount of players, a tree-like/pyramid-like system scales well to increasing numbers so that the distance to top grows slowly. Here are pictures of
1466
a binary tree
1467
and a ternary tree.

So the nodes would be divisions of four teams. New divisions would be added as a child to the highest, leftmost free node. For binary tree, the winner of a division would be promoted and two last teams would get demoted to random child node. For ternary every team except the winner would get demoted. This is pretty much as has been suggested earlier, but there isn't any arbitrary feeder leagues.

The difficulty here would be demoting the teams in divisions of the second-to-bottom tier childless nodes (like the node 13 in the ternary tree and nodes 13-15 in the binary tree). Also, due to teams quitting, you'd promote teams from the child nodes so the bottom tier divisions would require additional adjusting. Perhaps the tree should be filled by first assigning one child node for each of the higher tier nodes. When there are no more childless nodes, start assigning the second (and third) children. Thus each branch would always have a path to the "bottom level"

NieA7
20-06-2012, 08:47 AM
I clearly need a new day job.


...I like NieA7's plan for the most part, but worry that the Omega tier (especially since up to 50% of the DoD would be in it) might eliminate that sense of achievement, with its limited opportunities for promotion. That would disproportionately hit new players, too.

There's no greater or lesser chance of getting promoted out of Omega than there is any other level - top team goes up, everyone else doesn't (true for all levels except Alpha). The only way Omega is different is that it's size isn't fixed (as it depends how many teams we've got playing) and there's no way down from it (or at least so long as we have less than 88 coaches). I'm not sure that's an argument against what you're saying though as I agree with you, it would actually be quite hard to be promoted - it's just hard to get promoted at every level, rather than only Omega, and for every other level it's a lot easier to get demoted. Not sure if this would be a good thing or not.


...The difficulty here would be demoting the teams in divisions of the second-to-bottom tier childless nodes (like the node 13 in the ternary tree and nodes 13-15 in the binary tree). Also, due to teams quitting, you'd promote teams from the child nodes so the bottom tier divisions would require additional adjusting. Perhaps the tree should be filled by first assigning one child node for each of the higher tier nodes. When there are no more childless nodes, start assigning the second (and third) children.

My solution to this was the shared demotion pool across the penultimate level, but that is a bit opaque at best. Assigning each node specific children would make the admin pretty much as complicated as it is now though, as specific drop-outs would need specific promotions rather than just grabbing the next available team from the level. That's probably for the admins to decide though.

Everblue
20-06-2012, 09:23 AM
Maybe we should just leave the league the way it is but with random assignment to divisions across the two "columns"?

Screwie
20-06-2012, 09:48 AM
For the new league system -

I think the main reason we are doing this is for easier admin (especially with drop outs), with the secondary goals of mixing players up a bit more and possibly decreasing the time gap from new teams to potential top teams.

Switching to a tier system with randomised team placement inside the tier seems to solve the admin and mixing it up aims, but for the widening of the divisions, how about Everblue's idea from a few pages ago? I.e. instead of a pyramid of

Alpha: Champs
Beta: Divs 2, 3, 4
Gamma: Divs 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
Omega: The Rest

It's be more like now but with three columns rather than two, i.e.:

Alpha: Champs
Beta: Divs 2, 3, 4
Gamma: Divs 5, 6, 7
Delta: Divs 8, 9, 10
Epsilon: Divs 11, 12, 13
Zeta : Divs 14, 15, 16
etc

This would still decrease the gap from top to bottom, and give the admins more scope for switching players around but keep a more similar structure to the moment (because we're all broadly OK with the current scheme, and change is scary :-) )

This seems like the best compromise between all the ideas that have been presented so far. It shortens the climb up the ladder but not as dramatically as others, and has enough divisions within each tier to make randomisation interesting. With only 3 divisions to fill per tier it is easy to expand or contract the league as participation varies too.

The Champs would have only the winning team remaining from season to season, which is nice and competitive.

For the lower divisions we could have the last one or two teams relegated, depending on how people feel. I would be in favour of something similar to our current system, ie:
1st place: Advance up a tier.
2nd: Stay where you are.
3rd: Move to a random other division in the same tier.
4th: Drop down a tier (or move to a random other division in the same tier if you're in the bottom tier).
Alternatively, swap 2nd and 3rd place effects. Or ignore the sideways transfers entirely. Or go nuts randomly re-assign 2nd and 3rd (and 4th at the bottom tier) place, shove them all into a draw. Might be fun. :)

Upper division and championship aside, having just a single promotion, relegation and maybe side-regation (???) in each division is I imagine slightly less admin work than multiple relegations per division, and random allocation is less of a braintax than our current system already.

JayTee
20-06-2012, 10:22 AM
Usually, the next skill should have been Piling On. And now, well, I guess I have to think of something. Hmm... Sidestep?Well you don't have to take a Double as a Double if there's nothing that really jumps out at you.

If you're going a pure killer build to smash peoples, then it'd be hard to look much past Sidestep to keep him in-range of bash-targets or Jump Up to combine with eventual Piling On.

However if you want to him to seek out ball carriers then you could go down the line of Strip Ball, though I'd probably take Dodge on this double and grab Strip Ball next level so he's a bit more moveable.

Leader is another random option I guess?

El Cubo
20-06-2012, 10:42 AM
Now that I think about it some more, I'll drop the trees because the child-parent relation requires too much administration. The league is rows in a spreadsheet, after all. But in order to be a "perfect" system, the tiers should grow dynamically. Now I don't know if the influx of new teams is high enough to warrant this, but I'll present it just the same.



Have different tiers that that grow exponentially, either by 2^n or 3^n.
Form random divisions inside the tiers.
Promote the winners of the divisions and demote as many as is needed by tier sizes (demote two lowest for 2^n, all three for 3^n)
If a tier has drop-outs,

for 2^n sized tiers replace that with a random second placed team from lower tier.
for 3^n sized tiers retain from demoting as many teams as required.



So for a 2^n tiered league, the end of the season would look something like this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnucWzsQvKqkdEdTSDV1OXRuLXRTWGJEdGJBblJ3T Xc#gid=0
After promotions and demotions, just randomize the order of the teams in each tier

Screwie
20-06-2012, 10:57 AM
Hmm, completely random allocation sideways within a tier wasn't something I'd considered. That would mean absolutely every team is part of and interested in the random draw, could be fun.

Amended my previous post to incorporate that idea.

groovychainsaw
20-06-2012, 11:09 AM
Yeah, there is the problem of a childless node. But that's ok, it'll make the random draw to see who gets demoted more exciting if you go into a pool of players to go down, but there's a chance you'll not get demoted if you're not drawn out of the hat before the below tier is filled.

The most important thing is to keep promotions meaningful so people feel like they can progress. I also like the 'mixing' of players across the tiers (both for admin AND social reasons), and you're all doing good work mocking this up above. The binary tree would be most similar to our current promotion/demotion method, with one up, 2 down each season. Randomising where you go up/down to would be good, with a pool for promotions and a pool for demotions and a draw system (I've yet to figure out how to do this, but imagine names in a hat). There definitely seems to be consensus forming around the shallower tree structure so we'll start looking at how to implement this.

With the binary tree, you'll all be in at least the 4th tier, with only 4 season's victories to take you to the champs division, which seems a bit swift to me, but maybe you'll disagree :-). It would maybe be better to fix it at a maximum of 4 divisions/tier for now, so keeping some depth whilst giving us double the options for promotions/demotions down there. So I guess this is what I'm proposing (hastily scratched out on the back of a visio envelope):

1469

With the green boxes representing our existing divisions (just for numbers), the pools described for each season to mix people up (and make adminning easier) and a *slightly* shallower path to the top, but with enough effort to be meaningful. 1/2 the players would stay the same in each tier and half would change. No need to seed the randomisation as the worst case would be you playing 1 person the same next season (barring dropouts causing double promotions, of course). What do people think? Worth trying this format next season? Are there any glaring problems? I think it's a good compromise between depth/admin overhead/excitement. We still have the possibility to expand a tier to 8 divisions if we get a great deal more people, but I'm not expecting that level of growth in the near future.

Squiz
20-06-2012, 11:24 AM
Well you don't have to take a Double as a Double if there's nothing that really jumps out at you.

...

Leader is another random option I guess?Sure, it's not a forced pick, but I see it as a chance to improve a standard build (Block, Mighty Blow, Piling On, additional fitting skills) to become more flexible/reliable and/or annoying. So I see Jump up, Dodge, Side Step as options to consider. At least one of my other guys will become a dedicated hitter/sweeper/ball hunter as well (and maybe could pick up Strip Ball), so I might just as well take the double and get one of those three skills.

Leader is nothing I would take on a Blitzer, I need those guys on the front with their hitting/hindering skills. At the same time, I am doing fine with my 3 re-rolls at the moment.

Janek
20-06-2012, 11:32 AM
Yeah, there is the problem of a childless node. But that's ok, it'll make the random draw to see who gets demoted more exciting if you go into a pool of players to go down, but there's a chance you'll not get demoted if you're not drawn out of the hat before the below tier is filled.

The most important thing is to keep promotions meaningful so people feel like they can progress. I also like the 'mixing' of players across the tiers (both for admin AND social reasons), and you're all doing good work mocking this up above. The binary tree would be most similar to our current promotion/demotion method, with one up, 2 down each season. Randomising where you go up/down to would be good, with a pool for promotions and a pool for demotions and a draw system (I've yet to figure out how to do this, but imagine names in a hat). There definitely seems to be consensus forming around the shallower tree structure so we'll start looking at how to implement this.

With the binary tree, you'll all be in at least the 4th tier, with only 4 season's victories to take you to the champs division, which seems a bit swift to me, but maybe you'll disagree :-). It would maybe be better to fix it at a maximum of 4 divisions/tier for now, so keeping some depth whilst giving us double the options for promotions/demotions down there. So I guess this is what I'm proposing (hastily scratched out on the back of a visio envelope):

1469

With the green boxes representing our existing divisions (just for numbers), the pools described for each season to mix people up (and make adminning easier) and a *slightly* shallower path to the top, but with enough effort to be meaningful. 1/2 the players would stay the same in each tier and half would change. No need to seed the randomisation as the worst case would be you playing 1 person the same next season (barring dropouts causing double promotions, of course). What do people think? Worth trying this format next season? Are there any glaring problems? I think it's a good compromise between depth/admin overhead/excitement. We still have the possibility to expand a tier to 8 divisions if we get a great deal more people, but I'm not expecting that level of growth in the near future.

4 divisions per tier seems a bit wide to me. I think 3 divs/tier (as on the previous page) is about right actually, with entirely random division allocation. With current numbers, that'd be 5 tiers plus the championship, which makes it still a long-term achievement to get to the top, but more attainable than the gargantuan 8 season struggle new teams would face now.

I kind of like the high turnaround that would imply for the championship, too (i.e. everyone except the champion goes down) - it really would make the champion into an end-of-level boss.

The one bad thing would be that it'd be quite tough to do a transition. I shall have a think.

Heliocentric
20-06-2012, 12:12 PM
the muscular mayhem that is Helio. ;)QFT


@Heliocentric: I feel like you should get have the last word in this, but Sneaky Git (which is still completely lacking on this team!) is just too much of a risk for him. As one of the main engines of the team, I don't want to have a huge lump of TV being sent off in exchange for a possible KO result against an opponent. I will get me some fouling power with my next Lineorc though (Quantacat has bitten the dust last game, taking a fist full of SPPs with him), maybe even hire a Goblin dedicated to this job.


Really its hard to fault jump up, you get to block from prone, or just not lose 3 movement in the rush to hog some SPP.
Dodge is always good, more standing up means more punching, but just remember that ag3 is risky for actual dodges.

Janek
20-06-2012, 12:46 PM
I have had a think about how we might go about transitioning to a 3 divs/tier system. It's a bit wonky, but it works, have a look at the Googledocs spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ap4qOvf5XpeKdFBLQ1N6X2V5c2Z6UDdhak4xd001S Xc).

I think the admin workload can be reduced to simple ups and downs followed by getting an RNG to spit out the numbers 1-12 a bunch of times. The only slight headache would be dropouts, as ever. Deciding who goes up to replace them could be either on a "best 2nd place" basis or based on TV or just random.

Screwie
20-06-2012, 12:48 PM
Spurred on by Janek's comments (and getting a little bit of graph-envy), here is a chart for how I see the three-column compromise:

1470
(bigger, legible version here (http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc82/spuffpuppy/tiers.png) - silly forums)

As I thought on it, randomly moving all teams each season seems like re-application period could drag a bit, so I left it to promotions and demotions only right now.


The one bad thing would be that it'd be quite tough to do a transition. I shall have a think.

How about we first decide promotions/demotions for the season as we normally would, then we do this:

Championship -> Championship
1 + A + 2 (upper half) + B (upper half) -> Tier 1
2 (lower half) + B (lower half) + 3 + C -> Tier 2
...etc?

Specific placement within each tier to be randomised, of course.

EDIT: Silly forums!

Janek
20-06-2012, 12:56 PM
That's more or less what I'm shooting for in my spreadsheet from the post above, just with a convoluted way of setting how you define the upper/lower halves of the split divisions.

Screwie
20-06-2012, 12:58 PM
Aye fair enough, your second post appeared while I was typing that. :)

20phoenix
20-06-2012, 01:42 PM
I like the existing system as it is. The leagues are competitive - teams tend to be fairly well matched and getting to the top of the ladder is what it should be - an achievement.

Diluting this with tiers makes it much less appealing. I play in the OCC which operates the tier system and the only reason it works well for them is the divisions are ten teams. If you try it with four teams the knock on effect of dropouts and rerolled teams is exacerbated and you end up with teams unprepared for higher divisions having to fill the void.

The other thing to consider with such a shallow four div structure is the "amazon effect" Lets say a new player comes in and takes amazons. They're better than other starting teams and could easily earn successive promotions which is fine until your team which is only 6 games old runs into a couple of killer chaos and nurgle sides decked out with AV7 killers of the tackle, piling on mighty blow variety who have just been relegated. Three games in that tier and your team is in tatters as they dont yet have the abilities or squad size to help negate that. A little disheartening for the unfortunate coach?

President Weasel
20-06-2012, 01:59 PM
I would counter your Amazon Effect using the Drawlien Example. He won an RPS Open stuffed with 1600-teams using Amazons.
I'd also say "ha ha, die Amazons!" because I hate them, partly because I am terrible at playing them or playing against them, and it shames me.

However, I still maintain I like the current system as it is. I'm in Division A, and getting there and staying there is an achievement under the current rules, not a "3 winning seasons and yay I'm there".

boots468
20-06-2012, 02:11 PM
If we were to go with the approach Screwie has just drawn the graph for, it wouldn't be that much shallower than now - with our current player numbers, it's be 1 champs then 5 tiers of 3, rather than the current 1 champs then 7.5 tiers of 2.

It looks like season 16 was the first time we had more than 6 tiers below the champs anyway (we're in 19 now), so moving to a three-wide ladder would just make the length to the top about the length it used to be.

Screwie
20-06-2012, 02:59 PM
I do think that regardless, we should have a poll before we change anything, even for a trial period. There are many players in our league and most aren't as vocal on the forums as, well, me. >.>

Also I would rather we narrow it down to one (maybe two) solid alternatives to the current system before putting them up for a vote (including the option to stick with what we've got, of course), to avoid clouding the issue. I'm finding the ongoing debate interesting for this reason.

I would also argue that a tier system is not inherently better or worse at dealing with dropouts. The broader each tier is, the less impact a dropout has - but the fewer tiers their are, the greater the impact.

Zoraster
20-06-2012, 03:22 PM
Any change right now is a bad idea imo unless we also agree that we won’t adopt CE for some time if the vague promises of compatibility prove as ephemeral as many suspect. Most of the proposed new structures will become very thin if we lose 25% of coaches.


I would counter your Amazon Effect using the Drawlien Example. He won an RPS Open stuffed with 1600-teams using Amazons.

Minor point of order Pres; the ‘zons triumphed in the LE reboot season, so all rookie teams. The core point is sound though, and actually I’d say it is in a coaches interests to be thrown into a proper environment ASAP to avoid wasting time making unsustainable team builds. The history of Norse teams in the Divisions really highlights this. Being thrown to the dogs is a good thing if it forces you to make good choices.

Heliocentric
20-06-2012, 03:27 PM
I'm pretty much settled on my dark Elf build, but I'm just running it by people to see if this sounds good.

2 Blitzers
2 Runners
7 Linemen
2 Rerolls
1 Apothecary

The remainder of the Blitzers and the Witch Elves can wait until I have some cash. Losing one Blitzer and one runners to get a Witch and another lineman is also tempting.

Zoraster
20-06-2012, 03:40 PM
You need all four blitzers out the gate Helio. With only two you’ll find two rerolls won’t be enough, and you are a lot further away from getting that solid set of Blodge/SSers that make the DE team tick. It’ll also take you an absolute age to get the half million you’ll need just to complete the core roster (reroll, witches and missing blitzers).

Personally the only real debate I have over DE starting rosters is whether I’ll include a runner or not. Two rerolls, four blitzers, six/seven linemen and one/zero runner is cookie cutter for good reason. Four players with block, ten/eleven with AV8, four/five with mv7.

ChainsawHands
20-06-2012, 03:43 PM
I'd go with:
4 blitzers
1 runner
6 linemen
2 rerolls

and buy the apothecary first thing.

Start with as much block as possible, only 1 AV7 player, dump-off isn't so good you'd want to start with two of it, and by the time you add two witch elfs and another runner you're at 14 players so you don't really need more than 6 linemen (obviously that does depend on whether anyone dies, but there's a good chance you'll be wanting an assassin anyway).

Screwie
20-06-2012, 03:50 PM
What those guys said. I tried the 2 runner starting team and it hurt in the early games, it really did. You're already lacking Dodge, Pass, Catch... you can't afford to spend TRRs on block rolls too.

On the Apothecary front: Buying one with your starting gold is a waste on literally almost every team. You're not using wood elves and you don't have wardancers to protect, just take the risk.

Alistair Hutton
20-06-2012, 03:54 PM
I've always wondered what goes through the mind of a serial fouler.

*Sigh* playing against elves again.

Alistair Hutton
20-06-2012, 03:58 PM
QFT


Really its hard to fault jump up, you get to block from prone, or just not lose 3 movement in the rush to hog some SPP.
Dodge is always good, more standing up means more punching, but just remember that ag3 is risky for actual dodges.

89% isn't risky.

Heliocentric
20-06-2012, 03:59 PM
If anyone gets injured you are out of pocket (assuming you didn't fail to heal them). I guess I better pray for Halflings.
I did try out 4blitz, 2witch, 1runner no Rerolls, dodge on the witches was awesome, despite winning it was turn over city.

Rakysh
20-06-2012, 04:10 PM
89% isn't risky.
It is when you have the ball and need it to score grumble grumble.

groovychainsaw
20-06-2012, 04:13 PM
A poll! I'll set something up shortly. Just to confirm on the various ideas then, its either *stick* to what we have now (effectively doubles in each tier), move to triplets in each tier, or go to my proposal (obviously best) of 1-2-then 4 in each tier. Are they the three options we're settling on? I'm happy to go with majority rule for any of those suggestions, particularly on the understanding that we could switch back if we find it's a bit of a mess for whatever reason. So, someone confirm that summarises the problem and I'll create a poll we can all have our say on ;-).

Update: A POLL has appeared! Check out the top of the page! I hope i haven't broken the thread! :-D

potatoedoughnut
20-06-2012, 04:29 PM
For Delfs I've always used the 4 blitzer, 1 runner, 6 lino, 2 RR setup. I'd consider not even taking the runner as they're not that great. First buy is always the apo, then the 2 witches, then you can buy another runner or an assassin.

I don't really think Delfs have the skills for a no RR roster. Woodies can do it because they start with pass, catch, and lots of dodge so you don't need that many RRs.


Regarding restructuring - I like groovy's plan, and have voted as such!

Screwie
20-06-2012, 05:18 PM
A poll! I'll set something up shortly. Just to confirm on the various ideas then, its either *stick* to what we have now (effectively doubles in each tier), move to triplets in each tier, or go to my proposal (obviously best) of 1-2-then 4 in each tier. Are they the three options we're settling on? I'm happy to go with majority rule for any of those suggestions, particularly on the understanding that we could switch back if we find it's a bit of a mess for whatever reason. So, someone confirm that summarises the problem and I'll create a poll we can all have our say on ;-).

Sure, I think those are the general schools of thought here. we can get into minutae like randomisation etc later if needed (for example, to let those who said they like the system as it is now, but would not mind random promotions and demotions have their full say).


Update: A POLL has appeared! Check out the top of the page! I hope i haven't broken the thread! :-D

So suddenly! And I notice some bias in your poll options there GC :P

groovychainsaw
20-06-2012, 05:19 PM
Bias? I don't know what you mean! ;-)

ChainsawHands
20-06-2012, 05:24 PM
89% isn't risky.1 in 9 is 4 times as risky as 1 in 36, which is what you get dodging with proper players (like elfs).

Everblue
20-06-2012, 05:32 PM
I tend to find 1/9 pretty risky. It's like making a 2D block without block skill and no reroll.

Squiz
20-06-2012, 05:39 PM
I tend to find 1/9 pretty risky. It's like making a 2D block without block skill and no reroll.Meh, you'll be fine. Just make sure it is the last action of your turn and you've got tacklezones on the ball/player/opponent. :P

Everblue
20-06-2012, 06:29 PM
I play a chaos team. I have no block. I can't make *every* block the last action of my turn, can I?

Or were you kidding...?

Heliocentric
20-06-2012, 06:51 PM
I play a chaos team. I have no block. I can't make *every* block the last action of my turn, can I?

Or were you kidding...?

Use guard to get triples.

Vexing Vision
20-06-2012, 07:44 PM
Ths laptop is obviously cursed. It does not matter if I play dwarfs, elves, goblins or Amazons - I fail dodges, armour breaks, injury rolls. In related news, Grinn didn't manage to cause a single KO in the entire game we just played - but 6 stat-reducing injuries and only one normal Badly Hurt. I also failed pretty much every single critical dodge and pick-up, rerolls or not.

Long story short, I have had a rotten luck for the past ten matches and haven't seen a Blitz that wasn't against me in ages. I'm taking a break until I get a proper computer again or having the laptop exorzised.

Grinn used his early numerical superiority well and finished 3-0.

Jolima
20-06-2012, 07:50 PM
I should probably mention that I'll be sitting the next season out since I'll be on vacation for most of it.

I even marked it up in the sheet, so no need to get those bricks heated up.

Rakysh
20-06-2012, 07:53 PM
Yeah, the Phantom Menace will be sitting out next season as well; we're all going on a summer holiday.

Jarvis
20-06-2012, 09:28 PM
I can't get my game in with kajo any time soon and we've both made good faith efforts to schedule, so can we get our game set to a draw and have div 3 advanced.

Cheers.

Screwie
21-06-2012, 09:15 AM
Screwie beat me, it was the first of 2 Blood Bowl losses tonight. I am sad. :(

It was a close game, though. I was cursed with ineffectual blocks while ntw's passing skills abandoned him at crucial moments.

ntw saw our TV difference and chose to recruit a rat-ogre before the match instead of taking the inducements, stating at the time "watch me regret this immediately". Well... yep. The rat-ogre failed a total of five 2+ Wild Animal rolls on blocks/blitzes. :(

At the end of the day ntw caused more casualties, but in return I killed two of his players (an unskilled linerat and similarly untalented stormvermin - although I spent the whole game tackling down his niggling gutter runner and I just couldn't get that guy off the pitch).

The real star on ntw's side is the Tackle/Mighty Blow stormvermin, who was twice the rat his (former) co-vermin was and dominated every drive.

It could easily have gone either way (a typically skaveny match), but it was I who squeezed out the 2-1 win.

Insert Witty Team Name He (Skaven, ntw) : 1 - 2 : Dread Pool (Dark Elf, me)

mrpier
21-06-2012, 08:38 PM
Woo! Three straight victories in a season, don't think I have done that before. Nuffle must have it in for me now.

Thanks to boots468 for a very entertaining and tense match, seldom felt in control, and when I did he came out of nowhere and blitzed my ballcarrier.

Rattatatz (skaven, mrpier) 2 - 1 The David Icke Experience (lizards, boots468)

Onwards to Div. 1 next season, or whatever we decide it to be.

Dog Pants
21-06-2012, 08:41 PM
My word, a poll! It seems to me that the wider the divisions the more churn you will get, so you are more likely to play a team with a greater skill difference. Which will lead to some glorious victories and some hideous batterings. The fresher the team the more likely they are to be on the receiving end of a battering, given equal player skill, and similarly the veteran teams will get more fresh meat. So in theory this could lead to a new player in the leagues facing off in his second season against one who was five divisions higher last season, in a worst case scenario. For example; Nobby's Gobbies get promoted from Div 8 into Div 5, while the Helter Skeletons get demoted from Div 3 into Div 5. This being Blood Bowl that might not necessarily be considered a bad thing, and to a certain extent the team value handicap will compensate, but it could be intimidating to a new player if he gets a mauling from a much more experienced team, and that player might not want to come back. Of course the new player may well rise to the occasion too, and his path to the top will be less of a grind, but I thought it was worth putting out there.

boots468
21-06-2012, 08:54 PM
Thanks to boots468 for a very entertaining and tense match, seldom felt in control, and when I did he came out of nowhere and blitzed my ballcarrier.

Rattatatz (skaven, mrpier) 2 - 1 The David Icke Experience (lizards, boots468)

Right back at ya for the blitzing ball carriers out of nowhere! Here was my experience of the game, in glorious technicolour:



Edit: Hmm - glorious yet tiny technicolour. I'll get the hang of paint one of these days...

President Weasel
21-06-2012, 09:50 PM
Red Skull Reavers (Pres Weasel, Chaos) 2 - 1 Hardwood Harpies (Drawlien, Wood Elves)

The worst casualty of the evening wasn't inflicted by the Reavers; it was inflicted by the cold, hard, stone of the pitch, as a failed leap put one of Drawlien's wardancers in the morgue. However we can take some of the credit - we'd already used up both of Drawlien's apocs by turn 3.
I'm not telling you which ones they are, as you can do your own damn research, but 4 of Drawlien's team were carrying niggling injuries going into this match (and three of those are still alive). Reader, I checked his team beforehand, I made a list of the vulnerable ones, and I ruthlessly targeted those players. It worked, too - my first hit of the game was a blitz against a niggler, and it caused an apoc-worthy injury.

Drawlien made a miscalculation trying to score his equaliser - he had the ball in the hands of a blodging sidestepper one pace from the line, but he hadn't realised that the one chaos man within a single go for it of his player had strip ball.
Reader, I stripped the ball. It bounced off the pitch and was thrown on within pickup range of one of my 4ag elfbeasts - but I couldnt resist the temptation to pass to another beastman and try for an elfball touchdown. I'd have been better off caging, as the target of the pass spilled the ball.
Drawlien got the ball back and tried a long downfield pass to an Ag5 catcher on the line - but his thrower arsed the pass and the pass-skill reroll. I then made my own miscalculation - planning to put 4 players round the ball and then hit his catcher, I instead ran the very first player OVER the ball because I got too excited and forgot that the UI always, always takes the most idiotic path to any destination. I burned my last reroll failing a pickup I didn't even want to make, and gave away a turnover allowing an easy TD for Drawlien.

Drawlien didn't have enough elves vertical to stop a winning TD though, and with only one turn left and no riot roll he didn't have time to equalise. Not sure I entirely deserved the win, but I will take it.

With 6 points apiece for me and Drawlien, and with the other players tying their match and finishing on 4 and 1 points, promotion goes to head-to-head results - and for the first time ever, I get promoted to the Championship!

THE RED SKULL REAVERS ARE GOING TO THE SHOW (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va75XqWO6sY)!

Jiiiiim
21-06-2012, 10:21 PM
*cracks knuckles*

AgP
21-06-2012, 10:35 PM
Hi, could a kindly admin please validate the result between DeekyFun and myself (2-2 draw, division 4). Thanks.

President Weasel
21-06-2012, 10:43 PM
*cracks knuckles*

Yeah, the team aren't ready for the big time and I'll be up against players who've already proven they can beat me - but it should be a fun experience nonetheless.

Screwie
21-06-2012, 11:16 PM
I can't get my game in with kajo any time soon and we've both made good faith efforts to schedule, so can we get our game set to a draw and have div 3 advanced.

Cheers.

Just echoing this, can we have Div 3 rolled on please? :)

Kapouille
21-06-2012, 11:33 PM
If anyone gets injured you are out of pocket (assuming you didn't fail to heal them). I guess I better pray for Halflings.


I don't know what you're on about.

ntw
22-06-2012, 11:05 AM
Hi, could a kindly admin please validate the result between DeekyFun and myself (2-2 draw, division 4). Thanks.

"Kindly Admin"? What is that then? We are all complete bastards here... :)

I'll try and have a look at outstanding results and stuffs tonight.

Heliocentric
22-06-2012, 11:58 AM
I don't know what you're on about.

http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/assets/50302/Halfling_Throw.jpg

Kapouille
22-06-2012, 01:29 PM
*midget throwing picture snipped*

Come to the short side! We have cookies. And a banquet all setup and ready...

Screwie
22-06-2012, 02:53 PM
If anyone gets injured you are out of pocket (assuming you didn't fail to heal them). I guess I better pray for Halflings.

Halflings have Mighty Blow access though. Better to pray for elves.

Kapouille
22-06-2012, 02:56 PM
Halflings have Mighty Blow access though. Better to pray for elves.

Erm... Do we? (You being sarky? ;))

Screwie
22-06-2012, 03:01 PM
I was referring to halflings as in the team, not the position. :P

Zoraster
22-06-2012, 03:43 PM
Well you may get your wish Helio; I’m probably rebooting to ‘flings. I’m suffering withdrawal from my first love and while the Take Root desync issue hasn’t been fixed to my knowledge I’ll no longer worry about inflicting it on opponents since desync issues became generalised after the last patch.

Kapouille
22-06-2012, 03:49 PM
Ah but no, the position is lineman, and the species is halfling :) But I hear you, treemen have big wooden arms that hurt elves and even kill big guys!

Zoraster
22-06-2012, 03:50 PM
Forgot to ask my question; do we have a readers wives policy? My other half will need a new BB league in a couple of weeks and I think the ten day schedule here is perfect for her. However she is in no way part of this community. Any objections to bringing an alien in?

Kapouille
22-06-2012, 03:53 PM
Take Root desync issue

How does it manifest itself? I don't recall having suffer that yet.

Talking about bugs... I "accidentally" selected multiple block (as a skill), and it seems that I can't opt out of it when preforming block, now... I seem get the block STR penalty regardless of whether I decide to multiple block or not; the only option I get is a dialogue box asking me if I want to do multiple block AFTER the first block I have already performed WITH the multiple block penalty. Is there a hidden UI bit somewhere that I have to toggle to prevent choosing systematically the "multiple block" option when my treeman is next to more than one victim?

Kapouille
22-06-2012, 03:56 PM
Forgot to ask my question; do we have a readers wives policy? My other half will need a new BB league in a couple of weeks and I think the ten day schedule here is perfect for her. However she is in no way part of this community. Any objections to bringing an alien in?

A WOMAN? Do you want to sink the ship???

ChainsawHands
22-06-2012, 03:58 PM
Forgot to ask my question; do we have a readers wives policy? My other half will need a new BB league in a couple of weeks and I think the ten day schedule here is perfect for her. However she is in no way part of this community. Any objections to bringing an alien in?There is no community in Blood Bowl, only the constant struggle of all against all. Or all against ball for the AG challenged teams.

Screwie
22-06-2012, 04:00 PM
Talking about bugs... I "accidentally" selected multiple block (as a skill), and it seems that I can't opt out of it when preforming block, now... I seem get the block STR penalty regardless of whether I decide to multiple block or not; the only option I get is a dialogue box asking me if I want to do multiple block AFTER the first block I have already performed WITH the multiple block penalty. Is there a hidden UI bit somewhere that I have to toggle to prevent choosing systematically the "multiple block" option when my treeman is next to more than one victim?

In the Options menu you should see a link to Skill Choices/Preferences (I forget the exact name). That loads up a list of all the skills and you can customise which skills the game asks you, uses by default or never uses from there.

Skills absolutely worth putting on "ask", off the top of my head:
Diving Tackle, Dump-Off, Fend, Grab, Hail Mary Pass, Multiple Block, Piling On, Shadowing, Stab, Wrestle.

If you are already aware of this magical menu and you're still having Multiple Block issues, that IS a bug.

Kapouille
22-06-2012, 04:03 PM
If you are already aware of this magical menu and you're still having Multiple Block issues, that IS a bug.

I absolutely wasn't, and thanks buckets for that. You made my day Screwie, because it also covers other skills that are often okay to auto trigger, but are definitely better to check.

Zoraster
22-06-2012, 04:14 PM
How does it manifest itself? I don't recall having suffer that yet.

The client is bad at remembering the root state so you occasionally get one client rolling for root while the other doesn’t, resulting in an irretrievable desync and lock up (often with a thrown fling spinning in mid-air).



Skills absolutely worth putting on "ask", off the top of my head:
Diving Tackle, Dump-Off, Fend, Grab, Hail Mary Pass, Multiple Block, Piling On, Shadowing, Stab, Wrestle.

Never set Hail Mary to ask; it asks after you’ve thrown it so is totally useless. You have to leave it on or off and switch it on the player card during a match as appropriate. Multiple Block is best treated the same way imo to avoid the annoying question pop ups, but that does depend on you being able to remember to turn it on when you want to use it.

Fend doesn’t work properly either, but there is little way around that especially as you normally want to make an on the fly decision so you can’t turn it off on the card before your turn ends.

Kapouille
22-06-2012, 04:21 PM
Multiple Block is best treated the same way imo to avoid the annoying question pop ups, but that does depend on you being able to remember to turn it on when you want to use it.

So there IS a button in the bottom right area? I will have to inspect better next match...!

Screwie
22-06-2012, 04:35 PM
So there IS a button in the bottom right area? I will have to inspect better next match...!

Not for Multiple Block, there isn't. It's just Leap, Hail Mary Pass, normal pass, Bombardier and Hypnotic Gaze down there.

I'm not sure what Zoraster's talking about as the only other place to change skill use on the fly (that I am aware of!) is in the block pop-up itself, which is too late for Multi-Block. Will happily be educated though.

Zoraster
22-06-2012, 04:38 PM
You know the player card that appears in the bottom right when you select or hover over a player? Double click it and you get a pop up where you can turn on and off skills as you so desire. Vital to know as it is the only way to set up chain pushes on your own stand firm players, use hail mary etc.

Screwie
22-06-2012, 04:39 PM
Ah! Thanks. I will try that out.

Janek
22-06-2012, 04:41 PM
That is useful.

President Weasel
22-06-2012, 05:40 PM
You know the player card that appears in the bottom right when you select or hover over a player? Double click it and you get a pop up where you can turn on and off skills as you so desire. Vital to know as it is the only way to set up chain pushes on your own stand firm players, use hail mary etc.

Wait whaaaaat?

Gorm
22-06-2012, 05:44 PM
Yea this is news to me too.

LowKey
22-06-2012, 05:58 PM
bu bu whaaaaa?

NieA7
22-06-2012, 07:09 PM
It's like the foundations of my world have been ripped away from me without warning.

Jiiiiim
22-06-2012, 07:22 PM
We really need a Zoraster Tactical Corner. Dude's forgotten more about Bloodbowl than I'll ever know

Nullkigan
22-06-2012, 07:24 PM
...you mean you folks have never even TRIED to play with Hail Mary before?

That little tip is literally mandatory to avoid Cyanide using it for short passes. Also how you avoid Frenzy when it'll land you next to a beast of Nurgle or somesuch.

NieA7
22-06-2012, 07:28 PM
Frenzy isn't meant to be optional AFAICR, pretty much the only compulsory skill in the game.

Nullkigan
22-06-2012, 07:46 PM
IIRC it IS optional, but you can't change your decision half-way through. It's mentioned along with the lack of synergy with grab.

NieA7
22-06-2012, 07:50 PM
"Frenzy (General)
A player with this skill is a slavering psychopath who attacks his opponents in an uncontrollable rage. Unless otherwise overridden, this skill must always be used. When making a block, a player with this skill must always follow up if he can. If a 'Pushed' or 'Defender Stumbles' result was chosen, the player must immediately throw a second block against the same opponent so long as they are both still standing and adjacent. If possible, the player must also follow up this second block. If the frenzied player is performing a Blitz Action then he must pay a square of Movement and must make the second block unless he has no further normal movement and cannot Go For It again."

I always read that to mean you don't have a choice whether to use it or not, otherwise frenzy would be a skill with no drawbacks and worthwhile taking on about everyone. Not sure exactly what's meant by "unless otherwise overridden", though the phrase makes it sound like it's talking about it being overridden by another skill rather than the coach.

smaug81
22-06-2012, 08:19 PM
I always read that to mean you don't have a choice whether to use it or not, otherwise frenzy would be a skill with no drawbacks and worthwhile taking on about everyone. Not sure exactly what's meant by "unless otherwise overridden", though the phrase makes it sound like it's talking about it being overridden by another skill rather than the coach.

That's how I've always interpreted it as well. I tend to assume the "unless otherwise overridden" applies to things like Fend, which prevent you from following up and therefore using Frenzy (which, incidentally, points to one of the better reasons why you would want to apply Fend optionally, since you might be trying to bait a Frenzy player into a 2d-against block).

Heliocentric
22-06-2012, 08:58 PM
Frenzy is mandatory, that's why it's so funny to intentionally stand your own stand firm player to obstruct your frenzy so you can still get only 1 block off without moving somewhere you don't want to be.

Screwie
22-06-2012, 09:12 PM
While we are sharing forbidden knowledge...

If your chat box vanishes? Tab gets it back.

Even better, if you're caught typing something when your opponent scores a touchdown and can't skip the celebration cut scenes? Tab, Return, Esc at leisure.

Apologies to those of you who already figured this one out.

NieA7
22-06-2012, 09:16 PM
I had not figured that out.

sketchseven
22-06-2012, 09:39 PM
Neither had I and I frequently end up stuck watching the cinematics. Cheers Screwie!

ntw
22-06-2012, 09:53 PM
Forgot to ask my question; do we have a readers wives policy? My other half will need a new BB league in a couple of weeks and I think the ten day schedule here is perfect for her. However she is in no way part of this community. Any objections to bringing an alien in?

There is already at least one "readers wife" in the leagues that I know about, always room for more...

Naturally we'd prefer her to pop in and say hello at least, plus it'll help with organising matches in the discussion topics.

ntw
22-06-2012, 09:54 PM
You know the player card that appears in the bottom right when you select or hover over a player? Double click it and you get a pop up where you can turn on and off skills as you so desire. Vital to know as it is the only way to set up chain pushes on your own stand firm players, use hail mary etc.

Also - OMG WHAT?!?

/edit - all outstanding results I could find validated, Div4 & Div3 rolled on.

Kapouille
22-06-2012, 10:11 PM
If your chat box vanishes? Tab gets it back.


Wow! Thanks :)

It gets better and better!
I think it just outlines how crap the game UI is :)

Skydancer
22-06-2012, 10:19 PM
Thanks for the tips guys, I missed some of those!

Alistair Hutton
22-06-2012, 10:38 PM
You guys needed to pay more attention the last time I ranted about Hail Mary Pass fucking up a scoring throw to my Ogre.

Rakysh
22-06-2012, 10:42 PM
Me and Alini drew 2-2 in our last Div D match. It was a good, tight game with a few key rolls dictating most of the TDs. I've done the spreadsheet, and thanks again for the match.

Alini
22-06-2012, 10:57 PM
Thanks Rakysh!

A particularly good moment was when a giant fire ball hit the dwarf with the ball, magically failing to affect him, but knocking out all four corners of the cage around him. It split open like a beautiful flower. Then the wolf came.

This was compensated by not one but two frenzy-the-ghoul-off-the-pitch moments :>

Edit: Also, I'm a readers wife and now a reader too I guess, so fine by me!

Dog Pants
22-06-2012, 11:51 PM
Div D's matches played in parallel tonight I think, just like the end of the Euro group stages.

Div D: Bishi Bashi Speshal (ORC, Desvergeh) 1 - 1 Anupshi Rises (KHE, Dog Pants)

The visitors win the toss and opt for a slow offence, receiving the ball and feinting to their left. As the Orcs shift to match the drive the Khemri slip right and drive up the flank. The defenders respond without much trouble, slowing the drive down and squeezing it against the sideline, before Anupshi Rises see a weak spot in the bulge and break through into the centre of the field with a healthy cage. Bishi Bashi Speshal again drop onto the attack and go some way to penetrating the cage, but the draw of the brawl proves too much for the orcs and the ball carrying Blitz-Ra breaks free to sprint up the right again. A line of Orcs manages to get ball side, but with a Tomb Guardian escort the Khemri runner blitzes through the last man to score close to the end of the half. Extra time called on the half gives Bishi Bashi Speshal a glimpse of their own touchdown after a rapid pass and run involving the team goblin, but the whistle blows as the entire cage is enveloped on three sides.

The second half starts with something more for fans of ball handling as the Orcs move around to achieve position behind their front line, spreading the Khemri defenders across the pitch. Suddenly bolting through the less defended left field, the BBS's fearsome +ST Blitzer crashes for the touchline with a Black Orc running interference. The Khemri backpedal in a desperate attempt to get men behind the ball, and manage to slow down the charge enough to catch the Blitzer alone with a charging Tomb Guardian, knocking the runner over and the ball loose. As players from both teams close in, though, the plucky Orc breaks character in the face of the lumbering corpse trapping the ball against the sideline, and dodges through him to swipe the ball and saunter home for an equaliser.
Restarting with Anupshi Rises on the offensive, and once again the Orcs' lack of a kicker takes its toll, placing the ball into the hands of a Blitz-Ra for the second time. With scarce minutes on the clock the offence run a relatively fast cage up the right field, which the Orcs easily sap the momentum from and threaten to end the game with a brawl and a draw. Pulling back slightly the Blitz-Ra hands off to the veteran Thro-Ra, and with a last push breaking a path he sprints well into the Orc half, a fireball from the crowd covering his escape. A lone orc lineman manages to break free of the melee to catch the Thro-Ra and brings him down, and the game ends a draw.

Coach Dog Pants stands nervously before the Pharaowners, aware that despite moderate success the team's takings are down. Last season's confidence ebbs away surprisingly quickly when facing the veteran teams of the higher leagues it seems, and his position looks suddenly more unstable. He leaves the stuffy tomb alive for another season, but with a threat ringing in his ears; should the buried coffers run dry of gold they will instead be filled with sand, and one live coach.

Skydancer
23-06-2012, 12:07 AM
I had a silly game with Dentharial earlier today;

allow me to expose (will keep it short cause it's late).


Barebone Bareboners (Skydancer, Khemri) - Da Blu Moonz (Dentharial, Orcs)

Both the teams in full swing, 13 players each. Dentharial got 200k in inducements, which he decided to spend on a babe and a wizard.
Orcs win the toss and elect to receive.
Orcs get a quick snap and break my LOS, first block of the match: dead guard skeleton, passes regen check. You can already see where this is going.
Orcs set up a cage deep in their own half and manage to fumble the pickup.
My turn, some ineffective blockage, positioning.
Orc turn: blitz on TG -> badly hurt. An evil scream of revenge rises up at around 45.652118,12.621017, got picked up by local antennas. Orcs get on with the gleeful knocking around of enemy limbs.
Khemri turn: by this time, the cage reached the half pitch and slammed on my bony wall which was somehow managing an upright position. Due to some clashing with mummies, a couple corners of the cage were brought down and an enterpreneuring blitzra approached the ball carrier in an unfriendly way with a couple of GFIs, only to give him a mild shove to the side. The rest of the team kept on trying to tie down the orc players with polite words and earbustings. Meanwhile a couple orcs struggled to keep my ST 4 block throra at bay (the bastard) and sort of succeeding.

The rest of the half went on similarly, with me fighting to pry the ball from the pesky orcling and Dentharial trying to leverage a hole in my defense. On the last turn I finally did it and could have scored, if one of my skeletons didn't roll a 1 on a catch from a perfect launch (!) from a blitzra (!!). Last orc turn saw another skeleton out with a MNG (another cry from the same place was heard by long range apparatuses in Alaska) A failed dodge attempt from an orc foiled whatever reprisal crossed his mind.


Second half, I'm down to 0 reserves while Dentharial still has the whole 13 roster.
I receive and form a neat cage on the left side, moving a bit and not daring to throw blocks from my weak LOS.
Next turn, first move the troll on the LOS managed to double skull himself on a skeleton (hero of the match) and lonerize his reroll, ending with a turnover. From the skies, a fireball fell on my cage, BHing ANOTHER MUMMY (the wretched screams now were heard from satellites); the Dentharial claimed it to have been an accident, since he tried cancelling the command, indeed.

Now the cage was not an option anymore since I was missing two hard corners and fled to the sideline, screening the ball carrier with the two remaining mummies and The Bastard (from above). I'll leave the rest of the half for Dentharial to report, but allow me to summarize it with a couple screenshots (make sure to read the chat):

14781479

Final score: 0 - 0

grinn
23-06-2012, 03:48 AM
Hey Groovy what's the actual outcome of division 1?

The spreadsheet places you on top but I have a higher td difference and higher cas no?

Alistair Hutton
23-06-2012, 01:12 PM
Phill Cameron is currently in the middle of a move, he hopes to get internet back by the end of the coming week so hopefully with an extension we can get our relegation decider in. Otherwise it will have to be the two sweetest words in the english language "DE FAULT".

Indefatigible Snoozer
23-06-2012, 03:38 PM
If the powers that be would be so kind as to validate my Div C game with Mad Dave I would be eternally grateful

Jiiiiim
23-06-2012, 04:40 PM
Oh also I played Donut for the Championship. Again.

http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr151/Jiiiiim/magnates.png

We caused nine casualties in the end though I think that zombie was the only one who suffered as a result. GLORY TO MONEYBAGS.

The next Kroxigor will be called Go. You shall not pass him.

The Brain
23-06-2012, 05:42 PM
Jiiiiim wins at match reports... again.

cyberpunkdreams
23-06-2012, 05:45 PM
A WOMAN? Do you want to sink the ship???

There's already at least one woman in the league: Xenny, my girlfriend/better half/partner/mistress/concubine/something or other... I'm not sure which she'd be most offended by in fact.

MadDave123
23-06-2012, 05:48 PM
The next Kroxigor will be called Go. You shall not pass him.
Amazing! :)

Heliocentric
23-06-2012, 06:02 PM
Amazing! :)

He won't even allow you to collect 200

sketchseven
23-06-2012, 06:19 PM
Oh, is Xenny a woman? Fair enough. Still trying to get my Div H game in with Rhylok but I've had technical issues and then he's been unavailable - when's the cutoff point for playing?

El Cubo
23-06-2012, 06:40 PM
I don't think this has been done yet, so I plead: Could the powers that be reset the Div. 5 match between Wayward Gladiators and Cheez It!? We got Cyanided earlier.

Kapouille
23-06-2012, 07:10 PM
There's already at least one woman in the league: Xenny, my girlfriend/better half/partner/mistress/concubine/something or other... I'm not sure which she'd be most offended by in fact.

We're doooooomed!

ntw
23-06-2012, 10:18 PM
I don't think this has been done yet, so I plead: Could the powers that be reset the Div. 5 match between Wayward Gladiators and Cheez It!? We got Cyanided earlier.

Resetteded.

NieA7
23-06-2012, 10:28 PM
I'll write it up later but I'd be grateful if our benevolent overlords could validate mine and Dragon's game in Div B, got a level on a wolf out of it.

Everblue
23-06-2012, 11:06 PM
If I'd known Xenny was a girl, I would not have fouled her Yheti. There are some things an English gentleman does not do, and one of those things is fouling a lady's Yheti.

Many apologies Madame.

DWZippy
23-06-2012, 11:28 PM
John just decimated me 4-0. Honestly, I've been destroyed this entire league by TV differences of over 500. There has to be something we can do about this? I've earnt barely 20 ssp, and 5 of the ssp I did earn on a mummy went to nothing because he died - meaning my TV only goes downwards. I'm now hovering at TV 880.

Also, I haven't knocked anyone down in 2 games without using a re-roll. I guess what I'm trying to ask is - is there some big secret you're all using to kick me around the field as two different teams, I've had 1 TD in 6 matches. Even the undead, a team that is supposed to be "bashy" has been outbashed by Wood Elves.

I'm just so demoralised I don't really understand what I'm doing wrong and why everything seems to go against me, even when it's supposed to be "random".

Prester John
23-06-2012, 11:41 PM
Beauty and the Beast 4 - Warpstone Wranglers 0

Big Inducements for the Wranglers.

One side enjoyed the game of Elfball. The other couldn't knock over a drunken doddery old woman...which kinda sucked for them as they were the bashy team. Thanks for the game DWZippy, keep the faith in Nuffle.


Champions League here we come!

Heliocentric
24-06-2012, 12:01 AM
Even the undead, a team that is supposed to be "bashy" has been outbashed by Wood Elves.

I'm just so demoralised I don't really understand what I'm doing wrong and why everything seems to go against me, even when it's supposed to be "random".

Undead are not bashy, Undead are "relentless" and "impossible to keep down".

Lets look at some statistics

Max block players on pitch at 0 level ups:
11:Norse, dwarf
6:Chaos Dwarf (added next edition)
4:Amazon, Dark Elf, Human, Orc,
2:Elf, Undead,High Elf,Khemri,Necromantic, Skaven,Wood Elf
0:Others

I agree that strength matters, so lets count Str 4 and 5 players, or rather, the sum strength over 3 each possible. For example 4 st4(+4) players and 1 st5(+2) player =6
12: Ogre
8:Goblin,Khemri,Lizardman
6:Chaos,Halflings*,Nurgle,Orc,Vampire
4: Chaos Dwarf,Norse,Undead
3: Wood Elf
2:Human,Necromantic,Skaven
0: Others

Again the Undead are overshadowed in terms of raw might, but the fact is Undead teams dont go broke, they get obscenely rich meaning you can swap out any players who didn't get a double you really needed or pick up a -AV you cant stand for.

IMHO Undead are like playing with training wheels on, the worse excesses of Nuffle are limited but you are never going to progress very fast.

NieA7
24-06-2012, 12:08 AM
I'd agree with that, like Khemri their strength is deceptive. They're more one of the odd middle ground teams, along with Humans and Necro - they're about controlling space on the pitch rather than HULK SMASH. Good team though, solid at pretty much any TV.

Heliocentric
24-06-2012, 12:19 AM
Good team though, solid at pretty much any TV.

Just don't be ashamed to retire and replace any mummy who doesn't roll double on that first skill, I held back and its one of my biggest regrets. A st5 player without block is usually an impediment a team works around but still a useful utility, but Undead have vaults full of cash so why put up with a crap roll? If you rll +ST consider keeping it and getting multiblock later (unless you roll another double then multiblock can wait) All of a sudden Triple dice or smack 2 people are legitimate options.

Get kick ASAP and consider wrestle on zombies (dont be afraid to disable it on the defence if it will cause an opponent a turn over).

They are a SLLLLOOOOW team to develop, like any shambling zombie horde. For inducements Consider wizards and bribes, Undead often win games by attrition, if they are all lying down they cant stop you running the ball about.

Jiiiiim
24-06-2012, 12:24 AM
With my undead team (http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=656350) I've found they hold their own through sheer longevity more than anything. You can also afford to foul like a monster given the amount of almost worthless players you can field, though I try to be selective with this. Tie good players up with the zombies and focus on pounding the soft underbelly with your wights and mummies. Eventually the ghouls can do passable elfballing, too, but you have to keep 'em safe.

The other good thing is that they basically stall at 1600-1700 TV so you are guaranteed inducements against the bigger teams.

Squiz
24-06-2012, 12:28 AM
I'm just so demoralised I don't really understand what I'm doing wrong and why everything seems to go against me, even when it's supposed to be "random".As one of the teams you had to fight this season was mine, I feel that I should mention that you were indeed fighting against developed (well, a bit at least) opponents. Both my Orcs and the Presters Woodelves had some games under the belt before meeting you in the Divisions this season.

For one, I was really lucky with my KOs and injuries in the game against you, meaning that the Orcs could fully play to their strength: Setting up a meatgrinder and giving each other additional blocks. Woodelves are pretty much the worst team to face right after such a beatdown, especially if the Elves already got some Dodge or Block on their players.

So I don't think that you are missing some magic secret to victory. It is more that inducements can't always really make up for the differences between teams. At the beginning (and this is still true to some degree now) I found it incredibly hard to go up against Woodelves at all. They are just such a powerful team (maybe even the overall best team) and their playstyle (protecting the ball with space, running around you, dodging with Ag4 & Dodge skill, etc.) makes them very frustrating to face.

I say you should see if you've got any players worth keeping for next season (i.e. some guys with levels or 5 SPPs) and see how your team compares against a fresh Undead team. If you're stuck in a downward spiral, maybe you can reboot an identical team. We are in the lower most Division, after all.

On a more general level, this is what happens when teams don't perform very well pointwise (this is my case) but are durable enough to keep their SPPs and levels on the players. I got demoted last season and now the new teams have to deal with Orcs that have lots of Block, Mighty Blow and overall Strength. Prester got into the Division via bad luck, as far as I know and should practically play in two Divisions above the current tier.

I don't know if there is much that can be done about this problem. But I assume that next season won't be as brutal as this one.

Heliocentric
24-06-2012, 12:33 AM
Eventually the ghouls can do passable elfballing, too, but you have to keep 'em safe.

Blah, they live fast, they die young, death of the occasional ghouls are a healthy excess that you can afford. My biggest ghoul tip is don't give them skills that make them an overt target unless you are willing to protect them.

Skills that get the ghouls targeted are: Block, Guard, Strip ball, Tackle, Wrestle, Pro, Sneaky Git, Dirty player.... Sorry, I misread my notes*. Expect ghouls with *any* skill or stat ups to pick up a career ending injury at the hands of malicious opponents because they know they cant reliably hurt anyone else.

*Fend and Side step and Jump up(Surehands/dump off if he's carrying the ball)tend to put people off hitting you

DWZippy
24-06-2012, 12:37 AM
So should I reboot again next season? I just want a squad that is bashy, and doesn't die all of the time.

- Suggestions? I'm tired of getting pasted endlessly by every single team I come across.

Squiz
24-06-2012, 12:44 AM
I would say Orcs, if a race slot is available. Really bashy, lots of Strength, high armor. Just a bit slow and therefore tricky to score with.

Heliocentric
24-06-2012, 12:44 AM
So should I reboot again next season? I just want a squad that is bashy, and doesn't die all of the time.

- Suggestions? I'm tired of getting pasted endlessly by every single team I come across.
TBH, its likely got more down to your luck/strategy than undead, but that said an undead side slipping below 1000 TV seems oddly bad luck.

Yeah, Maybe try out another team if you want, or retry Undead.

That said I'm abandoning my Undead team after several seasons with them to try out Dark Elves because their progress was just getting too slow for me. Its not an objectively bad team, its just one where position matters move than movement and tha's hard to learn.


I would say Orcs, if a race slot is available. Really bashy, lots of Strength, high armor. Just a bit slow and therefore tricky to score with.Orcs are full, the best learner side open is Humans, you start with 4 blitzers and the option for an ogre (I'd check out what sides you were set against as he'll likely be a liability until you get pro).

A snapshot of the race balance table, 5=full.
Amazon 3
Chaos 5
Dark Elf 4
Dwarves 4
Elf 3
High Elf 3
Human 4
Khemri 4
Lizard Men 5
Necromantic 5
Norse 4
Nurgle 4
Orc 5
Skaven 5
Undead 5
Wood Elf 5

NieA7
24-06-2012, 12:53 AM
You can also afford to foul like a monster given the amount of almost worthless players you can field, though I try to be selective with this. Tie good players up with the zombies and focus on pounding the soft underbelly with your wights and mummies.

I find it really hard to foul with a necro team (which is basically the same kind of thing as undead) - I love the idea of using zombies to kick people off the pitch but their movement, Ag and basic purpose in life (standing next to Horrible Things) makes it very difficult to free enough up to foul anyone. Or maybe I'm just doing it wrong.


So should I reboot again next season? I just want a squad that is bashy, and doesn't die all of the time.

- Suggestions? I'm tired of getting pasted endlessly by every single team I come across.

Good starter bashy teams are Dwarf and Orc. Amazon and Norse are bashy from the start too, but AV 7 is always going to be difficult to manage. I reckon the best team to learn the game with is Humans as they start being able to do a bit of everything and can be specialised in different directions, but it's unquestionable a painful way of learning.

Jiiiiim
24-06-2012, 01:07 AM
Yeah as I say, I don't foul in a blanket fashion but the *possibility* is there and I try to make sure I bring out the DP zombies when I'm receiving on Turn 8 or whatever to get a juicy target. I had this game (http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3299423) recently though, where I induced a chainsaw and he proceeded to foul the entire orc team off the pitch before his chainsaw finally kicked back on turn 11. They had two players left at the end, was glorious.

cyberpunkdreams
24-06-2012, 01:20 AM
There are some things an English gentleman does not do, and one of those things is fouling a lady's Yheti.

I, for one, was quite shocked to hear about the Yheti fouling.

cyberpunkdreams
24-06-2012, 01:22 AM
Good starter bashy teams are Dwarf

I wouldn't recommend dwarves as a good starter team. Yes, they're very tough and survivable, but their very low speed makes scoring tough and good positional play a must.

cyberpunkdreams
24-06-2012, 01:24 AM
So should I reboot again next season?

I'd stick with your current team personally, and just accept that they're slow starters. My record with the gobbos in this league so far has been 0-1-5 (could maybe have been 0-2-4 if it wasn't for extreme stupidity on my part in one game) but has been a lot of fun, and I really feel as if they're getting somewhere now.