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Everblue
24-06-2012, 01:34 AM
If you want a bashy team I would go with Nurgle.

The warriors are brutes, you get 4 of em, the big guy is a monster, the goats are adaptable and have horns, and the cheap players are cheap.

You also have mutation skill access for claw.

ntw
24-06-2012, 01:34 AM
John just decimated me 4-0. Honestly, I've been destroyed this entire league by TV differences of over 500. There has to be something we can do about this? I've earnt barely 20 ssp, and 5 of the ssp I did earn on a mummy went to nothing because he died - meaning my TV only goes downwards. I'm now hovering at TV 880.

Also, I haven't knocked anyone down in 2 games without using a re-roll. I guess what I'm trying to ask is - is there some big secret you're all using to kick me around the field as two different teams, I've had 1 TD in 6 matches. Even the undead, a team that is supposed to be "bashy" has been outbashed by Wood Elves.

I'm just so demoralised I don't really understand what I'm doing wrong and why everything seems to go against me, even when it's supposed to be "random".

Normally we allow people to play a few extra matches outside the DoD if there is an obvious and noticeable TV difference, this time we had to shift some teams around hurriedly to get the season started reasonably promptly so PresterJohn was kinda dropped on you. Additionally both Squirrel and Cyber have been around for a few seasons so their teams have had a chance to develop.

Without knowing you or having played against you I can't say if you are missing a secret strategy, but I can emphasise that playing against RealLiveInternetPeoples is nothing like playing against the AI. Basic principles for me are to do the easy things first, try and always get 2D blocks, and avoid GFIs because they always fail for me ;)

As for rebooting, feel free to try another team. Norse are reasonably good for battering things I hear (universal block is a good start) but fragile. As I mentioned before - if someone alerts us to a TV difference (we have many things to check, organise and fix, we cannot remember to look at everyone's TV as well!) then we will try and arrange a few friendlies to get the gap closed somewhat.

Squiz
24-06-2012, 01:45 AM
If you want a bashy team I would go with Nurgle.

The warriors are brutes, you get 4 of em, the big guy is a monster, the goats are adaptable and have horns, and the cheap players are cheap.

You also have mutation skill access for claw.
Nurgle is really not a beginner team. They are hard to develop, have an awful offense (no block) and can get you in a downward attrition spiral fast. Rotters have Decay. They only cost 40k, but you'll often loose them faster than you can replace them. And they are the only cheap players on the roster. 80k Pestigors, 110k Warriors, 140k Beast.

Of course a developed Nurgle team can be lovely, but it is really hard to play it well.

Heliocentric
24-06-2012, 02:36 AM
Personally I'd discourage Dwarves as I find them exceptionally dull.

potatoedoughnut
24-06-2012, 03:00 AM
Any bashy team is going to rely moderately to fairly heavily on positioning. In general they are slow, so you need to think about where your players are and position carefully to maximize bashing and not get out-maneuvered. No team is able to stand up to every opponent and just beat them down, especially out of the box. You need to know when you can go all out punchy and when you need to play more standoffish, or know when your opponents will just slip away due to dodge or side-step.

Basically it comes down to just experience. It sounds like this season was exceptionally tough for a starter team.

Regarding team choice undead are good to learn with, as are humans. Orcs would be good too, but are full. Nurgle is tough due to lack of starting skills and slow development, and I wouldn't recommend them to a new coach. Norse and amazon could be good, but you will take some injuries due to low av, but you'll start with lots of skills which is nice for a new coach.

Basically keep your head up. Don't be afraid to lose horribly, it will happen, just try and take some new knowledge away from the game (how to do some sweet crowd-pushes (or prevent them), or a team with lots of dodge is slippery, a new way of caging or screening, etc etc).

Zoraster
24-06-2012, 05:33 AM
DWZippy: Clearly it was bad luck to lose a Mummy in your debut season. Losing a core positional in your opening game or two is just one of those random things you can do nothing about that will set back development. Normally I’d say stick with it and build your team, but the general vibe I’m getting is you’re not happy with the Undead style.

Orcs are the best beginner team so I suggest you reroll to them. They are full at the moment, but I’ve been mulling over rerolling; if you want them I’ll definitely cede my Orc slot to you.

Rakysh
24-06-2012, 06:30 AM
I'll vote for Orcs as well, DW, but I would also say that playing some FUMBBL is a good way to improve as a coach. I'm sure you've been unlucky to lose the mummy early on, but who couldn't use some extra practice? Matches are quicker than Cyanide and more easily available, and in general the standard of opponent is higher at lower levels, if you see what I mean, (no offence guys, it's just they all play like 24/7) so you end up picking up good techniques more quickly. Also, if you're nice people will definitely give you tips on what you did wrong so that's good. I played FUMBBL for a few weeks and it quickly turned me from the poor player I was to the decidedly mediocre-but-lucky one I am today.

JayTee
24-06-2012, 07:24 AM
I'd say not Khemri in case you were pondering them as a bashy team. They have next-to-zero ball handling ability so any mistakes that cost you position or the ball, will likely end up with the opposing team scoring. It's very hard to get the ball back once you've lost it. They do teach you very important lessons about positioning, marking and not-marking, and the art of the tactical foul with your cheapass Skeletons, but they can be highly frustrating to play with (and against!).

Dentharial
24-06-2012, 08:14 AM
@DWZippy:
The biggest problem with all bashy teams is that they're pretty much all slow to develop. This means that if you get unlucky early on (as you clearly were this season), you'll be slow to recover from it (and continue taking a beating while you do).

As a beginner, my favourite team to learn with was actually Amazons. They're a very solid team, that does extremely well at lower levels. Their problem is that they can be fragile (AV 7 across the board I believe), and their advantage of starting with Dodge on every player gets weaker and weaker as you get to higher TVs. As such, I'm not sure I'd recommend them as your DoD team, but try playing some random matches against other opponents outside and get a better feel for the game. Personally, they gave me a huge amount of confidence which then allowed me to come into the DoD playing as other teams.

LowKey
24-06-2012, 09:17 AM
If it is any consolation I too lost to wood elves 4-0 this season, they are and always will be bastards no matter how far you get :)

Screwie
24-06-2012, 09:58 AM
Sorry to hear you had a rough season.

There's lots of good advice here already but whether or not you want to stick it out as undead, you can learn a lot from reading the articles on BBTactics.com (http://bbtactics.com/) for general play advice and your team's strategies (and your opponent's).

Dog Pants
24-06-2012, 10:22 AM
There's been plenty of constructive advice offered to DWZippy here (which is lovely by the way, this is a great community), so I'll just add a little personal flavour. You're not alone in getting a bit of a shoeing at the beginning. My Khemri lost every game in my first season, conceding 8 touchdowns and scoring none. I was pretty gutted too, but since then I've had three promotions. Sometimes things just go awry and you have to write a season off, such is Blood Bowl.

Kapouille
24-06-2012, 11:28 AM
Just adding my grain of salt here. BB is a game with lotsa rules. I don't know how familiar you are with the rules, but if you haven't done so yet, you should have a read through the living rulebook : http://www.bloodbowlonline.com/Rules.shtml.
You'll soon realise that the game is in fact pretty random and the main difficulty of the game will be to reduce the randomness (or at least order it to make sure the important stuff occurs before the turnover).
My point being : are you sure you want to play a bashy team? Maybe, to start with, you want to get the grips with the game using a team that's fairly neutral (like the humans). Then, from that reference, you may want to opt to change team to another that reflects more what you aspire to.

NieA7
24-06-2012, 11:35 AM
I still reckon dwarfs are an excellent team to learn bash with seeing as they pretty much can't do anything else. You start out with sure hands on the carriers and the rest of the team are only 6SPP away from getting guard, which is really the key bash trait (more so than strength I reckon). However, that said...


Personally I'd discourage Dwarves as I find them exceptionally dull.

This is unquestionably true. Orcs are more fun and have arguably the most interesting starting roster in the game, though they start to suffer a bit at high TV.

And just to backup what Screwie said, BBTactics (http://bbtactics.com/) is an awesome place to start learning the ins and outs of the game.

Squiz
24-06-2012, 11:38 AM
Matches are quicker than Cyanide and more easily available, and in general the standard of opponent is higher at lower levels, if you see what I mean, (no offence guys, it's just they all play like 24/7) so you end up picking up good techniques more quickly. Also, if you're nice people will definitely give you tips on what you did wrong so that's good.Now that you mention it, which format have you been playing? BlackBox seems to be pretty awful with all the TV "optimised" ClawPOMB teams around.

Heliocentric
24-06-2012, 12:00 PM
Now that you mention it, which format have you been playing? BlackBox seems to be pretty awful with all the TV "optimised" ClawPOMB teams around.

Claw is not worth it unless you are hitting AV9, and AV 9 is generally not worth hitting for other reasons (slow, not ball carriers, poor agility so you are marking them)

There are 3 things worth Clawing Krox, Saurus and Orc blitzer, all are MV6, which is disgustingly fast for something so tough,additionally the MV8 AV8+Regen of the necromantic werewolf is unprecedented in its its turbo toughness no wonder these 3 sides are full.

Janek
24-06-2012, 12:11 PM
Claw is not worth it unless you are hitting AV9, and AV 9 is generally not worth hitting for other reasons (slow, not ball carriers, poor agility so you are marking them)

There are 3 things worth Clawing Krox, Saurus and Orc blitzer, all are MV6, which is disgustingly fast for something so tough,additionally the MV8 AV8+Regen of the necromantic werewolf is unprecedented in its its turbo toughness no wonder these 3 sides are full.
On its own, yeah MB is considerably better. But when you get Claw+MB+PO together the combination really is monstrously overpowered.

Particularly when the TV system lets you run around with a pair of legendary Block/Tackle/Frenzy/Claw/MB/PO killers and a bunch of rookie linemen at around 1200 TV, so can completely destroy almost-new teams with a minimum of effort. So broken.

Squiz
24-06-2012, 12:17 PM
Claw is not worth it unless you are hitting AV9, and AV 9 is generally not worth hitting for other reasons (slow, not ball carriers, poor agility so you are marking them)

There are 3 things worth Clawing Krox, Saurus and Orc blitzer, all are MV6, which is disgustingly fast for something so tough,additionally the MV8 AV8+Regen of the necromantic werewolf is unprecedented in its its turbo toughness no wonder these 3 sides are full.That's not really true. Everything above AV7 is worth attacking with claw, especially in combination with MB and maybe Piling On. Removing players from the pitch is the way many Chaos teams play and Claw is an exceptionally effective tool for that. I don't see how non-ball carriers are not worth hitting. They supply tackle zones, can screen and assist and open up further options for your play.

The FUMBBL BlackBox (the matchmaking system working by TV) is the best example for that. The amount of TV-optimised Chaos killer teams in there is insane. The ClawPOMB combination is so good that many people have demanded a rule rework for these skills.

Heliocentric
24-06-2012, 12:23 PM
That's not really true. Everything above AV7 is worth attacking with claw

Yes, but claw isn't free, its not a zero sum equation. Anyone who can take claw just got a mutation roll, So other than Chaos and Nurgle a double was rolled, Chaos and Nurgle have GSM so a wide range of useful abilities, even if they already had piling on,mighty blow, Block, Dodge,Tackle and stand firm/sidestep are you really tellin me that -1 av against a few, -2av vs a few more and nothing vs the rest is worth a whole skill?

Edit: I'd take jump up over claw on a double, every time and for GSM every up gets to choose from an embarrassment of riches.

Squiz
24-06-2012, 12:47 PM
Well, you don't have to take Claw on a lot of players to have a thread on the field. Claw + MB makes every armor paper thin (AV6). It's the same with Tackle, it is effective against a lot of players and then sometimes you are carrying dead weight. Here (http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=35244) is some discussion about the maths behind the combo, I think the chance of sending a player off the field when knocking him down and accepting the use of Piling On is something around 58%.

Now when you've got one or two of these dedicated killers on your team (mostly Chaos due to easy M access) you are very likely to clear the pitch quickly. This doesn't win you the match of course, but your opponent gets hurt a lot. When you're playing a team with expensive players or guys that rely on having their big muscles doing their job, your whole play can collapse after facing a few of these teams.

It's more a problem of match making where many teams can't withstand the punishment that well at low TV, but I would still think twice before going against a Claw-heavy Chaos team.

Rakysh
24-06-2012, 12:54 PM
Now that you mention it, which format have you been playing? BlackBox seems to be pretty awful with all the TV "optimised" ClawPOMB teams around.
I would never go anywhere near Blackbox. Ranked is where I inhabit (I don't cherry-pick, but equally I don't challenge like an idiot), or League if playing with RPS folks.

@Helio- there's a reason why there are so many evil Blackbox Claw-POMBers. It works. I think with a claw-POMBER you have something absurd like a 60% chance to take your opponent off the pitch, regardless of AV, and 25% to cause a BH or better (source) (http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/NTBB.htm). If you have four of those bastards averaging, say two blocks per turn (conservative estimate I think) they'll run out of players before you run out of turns, and their team will be a mess after. You have to remember that AV7 is not just 1/12 worse than AV8 or 1/6 worse than AV9, cause of dice distribution (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/math/dice.html). Breaking AV9 is a 16.5% chance, AV8 a 27.8% chance and AV7 a 41.7% chance- AV6 (which Claw+ Mighty Blow effectively gives you) is 58.4%. Before you start mucking around with Piling On, you're multiplying your chance of breaking armour with just claw by 2.5 times vs AV9 and with claw+MB by 3.5 times. It's a horrible, horrible set of skills (even more so if you double to get jump up), and the nerfs in first source are (imo) definitely necessary.

Edit: I am clearly squirrel's slightly more mathsy and laboured sockpuppet.

DWZippy
24-06-2012, 01:03 PM
Orcs are the best beginner team so I suggest you reroll to them. They are full at the moment, but I’ve been mulling over rerolling; if you want them I’ll definitely cede my Orc slot to you.

I'll take that slot, if it's going?

Zoraster
24-06-2012, 01:20 PM
ClawPOMB is no issue at all in proper BB environments. The trouble is the internet has this absurd obsession with creating random matchups of equal TV, something the game simply isn't designed to handle and there it is a problem. There is a reason it doesn't win trophies though. That said I did have a crazy Goblin on TT over the past couple of years who rolled a few early doubles and ended up ClawPOMB, Dauntless, Two Heads. Coupled with 2+ dodging and Stunty it gets a bit insane :D Unsurprisingly he got a crazy amount of bounty money on him and met his end a few months ago.


I'll take that slot, if it's going?

It is all yours. Saves me from procrastinating until the last minute and driving poor Groovy nuts :D

Rakysh
24-06-2012, 01:25 PM
What counter do you suggest to Claw-POMBers then? That Gobbo sounds amazing, btw.

Heliocentric
24-06-2012, 01:39 PM
first source, whizzat? Link Please.

Screwie
24-06-2012, 01:46 PM
What counter do you suggest to Claw-POMBers then? That Gobbo sounds amazing, btw.

Fend is your friend here.

Also if your opponent isn't guarding him, foul the POMBer while he's still on the ground.

EDIT:


(source) (http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/NTBB.htm)

On the subject of nerfs, I think there are several theories on how the synergy of a ClawPOMBer's skills can be toned down.

Personally I quite like the notion of treating the Piling On action as a free Fouling action (complete with the chance of getting sent off on the double, but also in that it would get assists, Dirty Player, Sneaky Git applied and you earn no SPP for it). That's a bit of an extreme change but keeps PO useful and actually adds to its flavour.

I really like the proposed change for Sneaky Git in that first link you put up Rakysh. It would certainly help the Goblin team :D

Rakysh
24-06-2012, 01:50 PM
first source, whizzat? Link Please.
http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/NTBB.htm is some experimental rules by some of the guys on the LRB comittee, but the rulebook is no longer living, if you take my meaning. Basically Claw doesn't work in conjunction with Mighty Blow and Piling On only affects injury rolls.

Dentharial
24-06-2012, 02:19 PM
All this talk on the last few pages really makes me want to reroll Chaos or Dwarf.

Ooooh, Chaos Dwarves.

(Note for admins: I will not actually be rerolling. If only as a self-control challenge to actually stick with a single bloody team.)

JayTee
24-06-2012, 03:18 PM
Myself and Wolfenswan just got Cyanide-ed while playing for the wooden spoon in Div 2.

4 turns to go, the ball on the halfway line in the middle of a Khemri clusterfuck with the Khemri 1-0 down and the Amazons have a player in contact with the carrier thanks to Sidestep.

"Connection lost with opponent, attempting to reconnect"

Which in Cyanide speak means

"Kiss your game goodbye because a one-armed monkey could write better netcode"

We wont see each other again till well after the season end due to my Timezone so I think we'll have to chalk this up to a default draw. It wasn't clear if I was going to be able to push through in 4 turns, but neither was it clear I wasn't going to be able to so we're both happy with a draw.

Well, I'm not amazingly happy as a Tomb Guardian intercepted the ball and we'd handed out 3 cas so I'd have liked the SPP for all that, but CYANIDE ><

laneford
24-06-2012, 04:14 PM
All this talk on the last few pages really makes me want to reroll Chaos or Dwarf.

Ooooh, Chaos Dwarves.

(Note for admins: I will not actually be rerolling. If only as a self-control challenge to actually stick with a single bloody team.)

You'd also need the new expansion pack, which a lot of us are wary about buying...

Zoraster
24-06-2012, 05:52 PM
What counter do you suggest to Claw-POMBers then? That Gobbo sounds amazing, btw.

How long is a piece of string? There is no cookie cutter approach; it totally depends on the builds of the teams involved. The core point is the only teams who have easy access to multiple players with the combo can only get there and be effective at very high TV and are incredibly vulnerable to killers themselves. These players have huge bullseyes on them drawing every fouler and killer build in their direction, and due to the high TV required they end up facing a chainsaw pretty much every game. Bottom line is they simply don’t last long enough to be an issue in proper BB environments.

Most people who bemoan the combo are really complaining about the efficacy of min-maxing in an environment the game was never meant to be played in. May as well say the Queen in broken in a game of draughts. Virtually the entire game needs to be rewritten before it will be remotely balanced in such a setting.

By the by Norse effectively face it every single game against a bit of bash and they have no problem thriving at high TV so...

This is the least bloody version of BB ever – bar one notable exception that was admitted as a mistake and rewritten in short order – but every single edition we see coaches who don’t really get BB complain about whatever skill does the most harm to their players. Every edition we get this, every edition it gets watered down, rinse and repeat for a quarter of a century. Personally I’d offer the combo haters the option of keeping it as it is now or reverting to piling on using ST as a modifier and reverting to the old claw impacting everyone.

The real irony is it is counter-productive. We are getting to the point where many more bash nerfs will make bash totally overpowered in the long run simply through the lack of attrition. Copious amounts of Blackle, Stand Firm, Guard and Mighty Blow is all you really need to regularly discomfort and crush finesse teams. Bash has already been nerfed too much with the result that hybrid sides are starting to struggle to hold their own. You need effective bash to limit bash. The likes of the dreaded combo isn’t a problem at all. It is a solution.

Zoraster
24-06-2012, 05:54 PM
You'd also need the new expansion pack, which a lot of us are wary about buying...
Not least because every single time PMCC is let loose on the code the game gets worse. One or two more patches will probably render it totally unusable. I’m in no way bitter at having just been struck with the desync curse introduced in the last patch resulting in a void game while my Ogres were 3-0 up on their Norse opponents in turn 16. Cyanide can’t really think we are all desperate to give them another 20 for two new teams and the same old crap can they?

DWZippy
24-06-2012, 06:23 PM
Okay, i'll mark it up on the chart. The Waaaghrriors are coming out to play :D

Gorm
24-06-2012, 08:25 PM
Just played el cubo's norsemen again and the internet/cyanide struck again.

El Cubo
24-06-2012, 08:36 PM
I think the universe is against this match. No need for reset this time, though. Shutting down both ends of the game nullified the result.

Kapouille
24-06-2012, 08:53 PM
Just played el cubo's norsemen again and the internet/cyanide struck again.


I think the universe is against this match. No need for reset this time, though. Shutting down both ends of the game nullified the result.

That sucks! What the hell is going on?

Alistair Hutton
24-06-2012, 09:16 PM
ClawPOMB is no issue at all in proper BB environments. The trouble is the internet has this absurd obsession with creating random matchups of equal TV, something the game simply isn't designed to handle and there it is a problem.

This is the correctest statement on the internet.

Heliocentric
24-06-2012, 09:52 PM
You need effective bash to limit bash. The likes of the dreaded combo isn’t a problem at all. It is a solution.

Most vulnerable to POMB+claw is anyone who can't either dodge away, hit backor by regeneration/being disposable... And stunty obviously suffers worst. But apart from stunties the best targets for POMB are those who use it.

Rakysh
24-06-2012, 10:02 PM
every single edition we see coaches who don’t really get BB complain about whatever skill does the most harm to their players.
Ouch. Fair enough then, apologies.

Kapouille
24-06-2012, 10:33 PM
every single edition we see coaches who don’t really get BB complain about whatever skill does the most harm to their players

They're missing the point! It's where all the fun lies, dying in ever refreshing ways.

cyberpunkdreams
24-06-2012, 10:35 PM
This whole recent discussion has a) been really interesting and b) made me realise that I'm even more of a BB n00b than I thought I was. I'd never even heard of the POMB+claw combo. Also, I'd never heard of special play cards, which I found after reading around a fair bit more. This is the kind of crazy stuff that attracted to me in the game in the first place, and it's a shame that it's not in the Cyanide version. Likewise, I love the whole secret weapon thing, but you pretty much never see them on the pitch unless you're playing gobbos.

In fact, if I have any criticism of BB at all, it sometimes feels like not quite the game it was meant to be. For example, there are a lot of skills related to the throwing game, but only a small minority of teams really use them (unless desperate measures are called for!)

Kapouille
24-06-2012, 10:43 PM
In fact, if I have any criticism of BB at all, it sometimes feels like not quite the game it was meant to be. For example, there are a lot of skills related to the throwing game, but only a small minority of teams really use them (unless desperate measures are called for!)

I dunno. Blood bowl has had two incarnations before the one we're playing today. I've played them all, and the 3rd edition is by far the best in term of dynamism and ball play.
Bear in mind that it's Blood Bowl and not american football, and although the ball is there for the touchdowns, your audience is mostly there to see knockouts and injuries :)

Janek
24-06-2012, 10:46 PM
My problem with Clawpomb isn't so much the effectiveness of the combination (I believe it's roughly equivalent to Claw+RSC in LRB4 for instance) but how easy it is to get - for some teams. No player should be able to have singles access to all three killer skills - it makes it trivial to get in the first place, and trivial to replace if it dies.

Part of the reason ClawRSC players were so feared was how they were so rare, because they needed those two doubles. It's why I do miss the skill/trait divide from previous editions, it made getting a double truly mean something.

Single daftest rule change in what's all-in-all a pretty decent ruleset, otherwise (though I wouldn't have nerfed fouling as much either _)

NieA7
24-06-2012, 10:59 PM
All the players that can get Clawpomb don't start with block or tackle though, so you're looking at a hell of a lot of turnovers from flubbed blocks before you get there. It's possible to build a team full of them but it takes a long time and you lose a lot along the way, plus as has been pointed out once you finally get there it only takes meeting a like minded soul for it all to be over. It's the min/maxing that causes the greatest issues, and again as has been pointed out the only reason we get that is because outside private leagues the matchmaking is deeply broken.

Really shouldn't have nerfed fouling as much as they did though. I played a lot of third edition BB, with death all around it certainly encouraged more exciting play styles though somewhat at the expense of the team building side of things.

cyberpunkdreams
24-06-2012, 11:08 PM
I dunno. Blood bowl has had two incarnations before the one we're playing today. I've played them all, and the 3rd edition is by far the best in term of dynamism and ball play.
Bear in mind that it's Blood Bowl and not american football, and although the ball is there for the touchdowns, your audience is mostly there to see knockouts and injuries :)

Fair enough. Apart from way, way back in the day, I've only really played the current incarnation.

I do like the violence though! I was really just using passing as an example (although I do like dynamic games). I was more meaning that I'd like more random craziness, secret weapons and fouling in the game to spice it up a bit more (maybe in combination with slightly longer halves?) The special play cards look awesome, and it would be great if there were more things a wizard could do, for example. I guess that's why I liked Dungeonbowl more back in the day.

Speaking of which, is anyone playing the new Cyanide Dungeonbowl? I'm just downloading it... can't really go wrong for 10.

Kapouille
24-06-2012, 11:17 PM
I was more meaning that I'd like more random craziness, secret weapons and fouling in the game to spice it up a bit more.

You're right, this game is not random enough. ;)

cyberpunkdreams
24-06-2012, 11:22 PM
You're right, this game is not random enough. ;)

It's not crazy enough! ;)

Everblue
24-06-2012, 11:42 PM
Isn't the point that the really nasty bashy teams just, well, don't win?

If you are matchmaking on the internet then yes you might get mauled by some min-maxed clawed buggers, but looking at actual competitions it seems to be elves mainly.

So in the OCC the league has been dominated by high elf and wood elf teams, although there are a couple of dark elf teams near the top of the league. Likewise on here the championship is usually won by lizards or elves is it not?

Chaos and Nurgle teams just don't have the skill set to beat these teams. On the other hand Chaos teams are very good at tearing through orcs and dwarves. Isn't it that chaos teams are there to stop the AV9 bashy orc-like teams from dominating by killing a few of them every season or so?

grinn
24-06-2012, 11:45 PM
Holy crap! The Rok 'Ard Nobz managed to claw their way into the championship on TD difference!!

/goblins carcading in yellow painted buggies

20phoenix
24-06-2012, 11:52 PM
My rats ground out a 1-0 win over X Kots ogres. A heroic interception by a snotling killed off any hope I had of scoring in the first half and once said snot was introduced to the turf the ball became a bystander for the rest of the half as teams swung pretty ineffectively at each other. The game swung on one turn when having got a gutter and a lino round the back of the ogre lines the previous turn, the induced wizard was unleashed. Like a flower opening itself to the sun the cage split apart as the fireball successfully floored the entire cage bar the ball carrier. His mocking impudence was short lived as he was KO'd from the following blitz and the ball entered rat hands. The ball wasnt really relinquished for the rest of the game as a gutter runner stalled out the rest of the half in the corner. It took until about turn 14 for some rat blood to flow but once the first injury occurred they followed in quick succession. Nowt to worry about though as they were only badly hurts.

President Weasel
25-06-2012, 12:30 AM
Isn't the point that the really nasty bashy teams just, well, don't win?

If you are matchmaking on the internet then yes you might get mauled by some min-maxed clawed buggers, but looking at actual competitions it seems to be elves mainly.

So in the OCC the league has been dominated by high elf and wood elf teams, although there are a couple of dark elf teams near the top of the league. Likewise on here the championship is usually won by lizards or elves is it not?

Chaos and Nurgle teams just don't have the skill set to beat these teams. On the other hand Chaos teams are very good at tearing through orcs and dwarves. Isn't it that chaos teams are there to stop the AV9 bashy orc-like teams from dominating by killing a few of them every season or so?

You don't need to make a clawPOMB team if you're rolling chaos, the teamwide access to general, strength, and mutation mean you get to make all sorts of chaos teams. They're excellent after the first couple of seasons when they don't have any skills (which may well be what brings their win percentage down).
If you're playing elves, just give some of them tackle - I only had one tackle player on my team but it was enough to take out one of Drawlien's elves - and I'd say a beastman with wrestle and strip ball is a wise investment - especially if you can get one with +mov.
My chaos team will be in the Championship next season, and will be relegated the season after as they're not developed enough yet. But they did get to the Championship and they did it without claw or piling on (although I do have one player with claw now after my last skillup),

ntw
25-06-2012, 08:51 AM
Okay, i'll mark it up on the chart. The Waaaghrriors are coming out to play :D

No sign of you on the sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApZtTuVnFIbvdDRKQ20yb0N1Zy1FMlcybFFFQ0Vre Xc&authkey=CLqFqKgH&hl=en&authkey=CLqFqKgH#gid=24)yet fella...?

Everblue
25-06-2012, 09:19 AM
My chaos team will be in the Championship next season, and will be relegated the season after as they're not developed enough yet. But they did get to the Championship and they did it without claw or piling on)

Then you are letting the side down! As described above, the whole *point* of chaos is to keep the game balanced by killing off the other teams' best players! Otherwise it becomes elfball-anarchy. It's your duty to claw up and hit things!

Screwie
25-06-2012, 09:34 AM
You don't need to make a clawPOMB team if you're rolling chaos, the teamwide access to general, strength, and mutation mean you get to make all sorts of chaos teams. They're excellent after the first couple of seasons when they don't have any skills (which may well be what brings their win percentage down).

Just echoing this sentiment... My Chaos team in progress in the Challenge league has a whole other scheme in mind. I find the ClawPOMB route extremely boring, especially on a team that is essentially a blank slate and with all the eccentric goodness of easy Mutation access.

El Cubo
25-06-2012, 09:57 AM
Just echoing this sentiment... My Chaos team in progress in the Challenge league has a whole other scheme in mind. I find the ClawPOMB route extremely boring, especially on a team that is essentially a blank slate and with all the eccentric goodness of easy Mutation access.

Why go clawPOMB when you can have a team of pseudo elves with high av?

groovychainsaw
25-06-2012, 11:53 AM
@Grinn - you clawed your way into the champs on far more than TD difference, your CAS+TD differnce was +19, one of the highest I've ever seen! Damn your orcs' ability to kill people this season. 6 against me + 7 against hughtower was more than enough. I ended on +3 and VV got -13, by comparison :-).

@Everyone else, the season ends... WEDNESDAY. So get finishing up those games!

I look at the poll above and it appears that the consensus seems to be hovering towards the 1-2-4-4-4 division tiers proposed by myself (I'm sure this was not influenced by my considerable bias in the poll. I hope not, anyway :-S). Not everyone has voted yet, but there is a majority voting for change, even if it's not unanimous. So, with that in mind, we'll start setting up a different sheet and different structure for next season. We will reuse the existing divisions within cyanide's system, so no changes should be needed there (although we may need one or two more divisions to be created - *admins on standby*), it will mostly be changes to the sheet to manage how this works. Basically, I'll arrange promotions/demotions for the end of this season as usual, then drop you into the 'pools' for each tier. I'll check with some of you that pools look right. I'm not sure about a 'live' draw yet, but I'll see what I can come up with over the next few days (might be a 'livetext' feed of some sort...I may even create a twitter account for this purpose...? N.B. I have NO experience with twittering). Obviously, if this coming season turns out to be a total disaster for whatever reason, we can revert back to the previous organisation (with the understanding that some people's positions will have got stirred up in the meantime).

As usual, if you are thinking of dropping out/pausing for next season, PLEASE can you mark yourself up with a 'Z' on the sheet for next season? Likewise, if you are rebooting, add an Rx in the 'next season' column. Additionally additionally, if you know an opponent in your division has not played the last 2 matches or has been AWOL for long periods, can we add a 'Z' next to them as well? It will be everyone's responsibility to check the sheet at the end of the season and make sure if they have (erroneously) been marked with a 'Z' to delete this so they can continue. This is to prevent people who have dropped out but not informed us disrupting the setup for next season. Make sense?

Right, enough epic posting for now - go and play :-)

Everblue
25-06-2012, 12:04 PM
Can I just say thanks to the admins and my opponents for a very enjoyable first season in the Divisions.

...

Thanks!

groovychainsaw
25-06-2012, 12:07 PM
No worries Everblue, we aim to please, glad you enjoyed yourself ;-).

President Weasel
25-06-2012, 12:10 PM
Finally I have climbed to the very top of the apex of pinnacle of the Divisions of Death!
... Just in time for it to get less pinnacly, and more gently-sloping-pyramidy. But I did it the hard* way! Hah!
(*ish: there was that one undeserved promotion, when I was promoted from second spot in 2 because of drop-outs above).

sketchseven
25-06-2012, 12:40 PM
It's been awesome. Even if I got beat lots :)

No word from Rhylok, last I heard from him he was unavailable for our rescheduled match as he'd had family show up unexpectedly. Hopefully I'll hear from him before the cut off on Wednesday.

Squiz
25-06-2012, 12:46 PM
But I did it the hard* way! Hah!
(*ish: there was that one undeserved promotion, when I was promoted from second spot in 2 because of drop-outs above).Ohhh, you are one of "those" people. With that statement you effectively invalidate any achievements of any player after the structural change. :P

President Weasel
25-06-2012, 02:19 PM
Ohhh, you are one of "those" people. With that statement you effectively invalidate any achievements of any player after the structural change. :P

That's why I voted for the "I hate and fear change" option. I like that it takes time, skill and luck to get to the top of the divisions, and a shallower structure makes getting to the top less of an achievement. But if more people want it the other way I can live with that.

Kapouille
25-06-2012, 02:23 PM
That's why I voted for the "I hate and fear change" option. I like that it takes time, skill and luck to get to the top of the divisions, and a shallower structure makes getting to the top less of an achievement. But if more people want it the other way I can live with that.

You get to meet more people and have more chance of crushing inexperienced teams, what's not to like?

Heliocentric
25-06-2012, 02:24 PM
Ohhh, you are one of "those" people. With that statement you effectively invalidate any achievements of any player after the structural change. :P

He liked it before it sold out.

President Weasel
25-06-2012, 03:09 PM
I liked liking things before they were cool before it was cool. I'm so achingly hip it's a wonder I can see over my own enormous pelvis.

Squiz
25-06-2012, 03:18 PM
I liked liking things before they were cool before it was cool. I'm so achingly hip it's a wonder I can see over my own enormous pelvis.Where on your body are your eyes located to... wait... I... what?

I guess I see your point, Weasel. But you still have to win the Championship to make it count. My guess would be that the new system won't necessarily make it easier to win that last round, as the TV differences probably will regulate the different levels/stages by themselves.

Jiiiiim
25-06-2012, 05:26 PM
Groovy, you could also just make a big steam chatroom to announce the groups, I'm sure enough of us know each other that we can invite everybody who's around in.

Janek
25-06-2012, 07:46 PM
I punched AgP's thrower so hard he fell off the internet. Could a friendly admin reset our Division 4 game?

Gorm
25-06-2012, 08:01 PM
Me and El Cubo finally got our game played. For the 3rd time, but this time managed to actually finish before internet problems struck. His norse beat my Skaven 1-0 and pretty soundly stopped me from scoring at every turn.

El Cubo
25-06-2012, 08:14 PM
Wayward Gladiators (El Cubo) vs. Cheese It!!!! (Gorm)

After three disconnects, we finally finished the match, hooray!

The rats started the match with a kick. The ball is caged by the Norse who succeed well in moving it forwards. Lots of blocking brings the skaven down and the extra fast linerat called Cheddarat gives up the ghost. Caligula Minus scores on turn 6. Rioting gives the Skaven extra time to score. Monteray Jack was going for the touchdown, but a disturbing troll causes the pass to go awry. Panurgus passes the ball to Lucius Vorenus who runs for the end zone. Sadly, he is stopped by a ratty blitz.

The second half was eventful to say the least. While the Norse defense isn't playing attention, the rats invade the their side of the pitch. Monterey Jack gets the ball again but is blitzed down. The ball is quickly surrounded by Norse players. One of them, Xeno the kicker, is nudged by a particularly heinous linerat on the ball with lethal consequences. Tarquinius Priscus is so shocked by Xeno's fate that he forgets his AG2 and snatches the bouncing ball. So he starts running for the end zone and while he's at it, he throws Ratcotta over the sideline. He himself is also pushed into the crowd when his protectors fail to arrive. The crowd throws the ball almost to the skaven end zone, but Lucius Vorenus, who is a dodge, pick up and two gfi's away from scoring can't even try to do it before before some dumb Norseman knocks himself out elsewhere. So the rats get one last chance to score but the dodge before the handoff proves too difficult and the game ends.

1-0 for Wayward Gladiators

---

Thanks to Gorm for the three challenging matches. I suppose I dominated slightly due to the team wide block.

Jolima
25-06-2012, 08:23 PM
I punched AgP's thrower so hard he fell off the internet. Could a friendly admin reset our Division 4 game?

I've reset it.

ChainsawHands
25-06-2012, 09:38 PM
Hmm, rolled a 6 4 on a dodge lineelf. Tempted just to ignore it and take block...

Heliocentric
25-06-2012, 09:44 PM
Hmm, rolled a 6 4 on a dodge lineelf. Tempted just to ignore it and take block...

Not every stat is worthwhile, what about wrestle?

ChainsawHands
25-06-2012, 09:55 PM
Yeah, wrestle's a strong contender too.

DeekyFun
25-06-2012, 09:58 PM
Nullkigan and I played our game.

Having not faced Dark Elves before, I was unsure what to expect, especially as Nullkigan had a higher TV than I did. Despite the interest, I chose not to bother looking at his players too hard during set up, as I like to make things harder for myself.

I kicked off and Nullkigan began his attack, advancing quickly through a hole in my line that he, in fairness, created. I managed to get a block off on his marauding player, and a small ruck developed, ending abruptly when the ball bounced out of the carnage and into the path of a dark elf who found it a fairly simple task to throw a simple pass and let his team mate score.

Setting up again, I tried an aggressive approach to get a quick touchdown before the end of the half. I punched through the line out to flood some players into the centre of his half, hoping the choices would allow me some passing options. I regretted my positioning however, as his monster of a Witch-Elf flew into my star STR4, AG5 Blitzer (The only useful player on my team), gouging his eye and sending him off the pitch (I send in my Apoc, who promptly made it worse). The drive proved damaging for my team numbers as another player got knocked out, but in the end my thrower ignored the carnage in the centre, opting to take advantage of a right wing pass when Nullkigan had some bad luck which gave him a turnover. The pass worked, and I ran it in to draw level before the half ended, but not before Nullkigan managed to kill one of my linesmen. My team gave as well as they got, though, and caused enough casualties of their own to actually give me the advantage in numbers after half time, which was a first!

I opted for a strange tactic when receiving the ball in the second half. With my star player out, and worried about the speed of Nullkigan scoring, I decided I'd try and play the numbers and cage the ball, aiming to score just before the half ended. Though I'd like to pretend it was tactical nous that make the play, it was more luck, bad for Nullkigan during a patch when I needed it (including getting an interception!). The ball changed hands several times during the drive, and yet I still found myself within scoring and in control. I made the fatal mistake of trying to keep the play going too long however, and entering the final three turns, I lost control of the ball, which bounced into the hands of one of the Witch Elves. With one turn left I attempted in vein to knock her down so I could attempt a pass to score, but my Elves failed to get that lucky roll. With few moments left Nullkigan was unable to make it down the pitch to counter and the game ended 1-1.

I really wish I'd run the ball in when I got the chance, in retrospect, but I was concerned about giving 4 turns for Nullkigan to score. I guess, thinking about it now, it would have been better to risk that than waiting, but at the time I thought my position was fairly strong (It turns out it wasn't, and I am a wrong). It was a fun game though.

ntw
25-06-2012, 10:51 PM
Bunch o' results validated

MadDave123
25-06-2012, 11:05 PM
Howdy, le Admins. I'm going to be away from 6th - 17th July. Not sure where we'll be in the season before the 6th, but as long as I can apply before then I'd be happy to take a loss for whatever game(s) I miss. Rather than starting from the bottom of the league, if that's okay with the PTB?

Kapouille
25-06-2012, 11:05 PM
Gentleadmins: Cacamas and I should play our match Wednesday (for div 5). Hope that's fine!

Screwie
25-06-2012, 11:48 PM
Kajo and I had our match, it was a frustrating let down for me as I failed a crazy amount of 2+ rolls, a few of them rerolled right back into 1s, some of them crucial rolls. Kajo's necromantics received and scored first but my dark elves pressured him into crossing the line with enough time for me to equalise in the first half... which I almost did except I failed a simple hand-off on Turn 8.

My chances were running out shortly into the second half, all my rerolls got spent quickly... two wasted on GFIs that still failed anyway, and on consecutive turns. The second of those failures was my ball carrier, and Kajo snatched the ball away from me at that point and I couldn't get it back. I was left with two turns to score a consolation goal at the end of the match, but without rerolls Kajo's defence held back my last-ditch drive.

Kajers (Necromantic, Kajo) : 2 - 0 : Dread Pool (Dark Elf, me)

Just a miserable disappointment for me when I was looking forward to continuing my team's rivalry with Kajo's. But he played well, made great use of his Guards and was a decent sport despite my grumbling.

And it wasn't all terrible. We both escaped without serious injuries (Kajo's werewolf died but got better) and I managed to steal a few SPPs, enough to take one of my blitzers to level 4. Sadly my witch elf is still a miserable rookie and a liability... hopefully she can earn her first skill next season.

ntw
26-06-2012, 12:10 AM
Howdy, le Admins. I'm going to be away from 6th - 17th July. Not sure where we'll be in the season before the 6th, but as long as I can apply before then I'd be happy to take a loss for whatever game(s) I miss. Rather than starting from the bottom of the league, if that's okay with the PTB?

Can you add a note to the sheet please? Err, probably best to add it as a cell comment.

Screwie
26-06-2012, 10:14 AM
Groovy, you could also just make a big steam chatroom to announce the groups, I'm sure enough of us know each other that we can invite everybody who's around in.

Jiiim has all the best ideas!

Corkir
26-06-2012, 02:30 PM
Hiya folks. I am hoping to join you for some blood bowling next season. I have added myself to the sheet.

Am i right in thinking people with a z on the next season column are still included on the race balance sheet?

Screwie
26-06-2012, 02:47 PM
Am i right in thinking people with a z on the next season column are still included on the race balance sheet?

Their teams are included yes, but that is just a quirk of the spreadsheet. They actually don't factor into the race limits as far as the guys in charge are concerned.

Welcome aboard!

ntw
26-06-2012, 04:48 PM
Hiya folks. I am hoping to join you for some blood bowling next season. I have added myself to the sheet.

Am i right in thinking people with a z on the next season column are still included on the race balance sheet?

Welcome, and I've fixed the Race Balance sheet a bit - people hadn't been updating the Season Info sheet correctly. Now it is more accurate, however it still shows people who are still in this season, but quitting next season.

Rhylok
26-06-2012, 07:48 PM
So, life came up in a way that will prevent me from getting in my game with Sketchseven. Please give him the default win, and I will cry while packing all my earthly belongings into cardboard boxes.

NieA7
26-06-2012, 09:46 PM
Read in Tooth and Claw (Necro, me) vs. Dead Can-Can (Dragon, Undead)

I'll be honest, I really wanted to win this one - despite advancing steadily up the table Claw have never actually won a div. Going into this match with 2 for 2 only a draw or better was needed for their first truly earned promotion in 30 matches. Claw and Can-Can had met before, leading to a frustrating 1-1 draw. Since then Can-Can had acquired a Str6 mummy and a block mummy, along with a blodge/tackle/MB wight, guard ghoul, guard zombie and an Ag4 ball carrying ghoul anyone would be envious of. Claw had developed 2 block zombies though, so it was an even gain all told.

Claw won the toss and elected to kick. Can-Can grabbed the ball and caged up near the edge of the pitch, safe behind a wall of angry dead men. The game stalled for a few turns with Can-Can attempting to push a way through while Claw tried to wheedle a gap to the carrier, but some clever positioning made sure that Can-Can stayed in the driving seat. Over the space of two turns both Claw's Golem's were taken out (one injured and regenned, the other KO'd), making it even harder to hold the tide back. A quick sprint forward made the TD inevitable, leaving it 1-0 to Can-Can on turn 7.

This gave Claw two turns to score, and with re-rolls in hand a TD felt likely. Despite Can-Can rolling a blitz and moving aggressively forward some rapid redeployment ensured a TD was still more than possible: on the last turn of the half a Wolf had a clear run into the end zone, all he needed was the ball. A little blocking and a blitz cleared the path for the hand off but ate the re-roll for the turn, which inevitably lead to the wolf spilling the ball when it finally got to him - 1-0 to Can-Can at half time.

Determined to show they could do it Claw went for another 2 turn TD at the start of the second half, only this time they got it right. Proving they were no slouches themselves Can-Can returned the favour, scoring a quick TD of their own and making it 2-1. Throwing caution to the wind (and helped no end by the KO'd Golem finally waking up) Claw pushed for yet another quick TD, and with a little bit of luck on the blocking made it through again - 2-2 with only a couple of turns left to play.

Kicking off Claw rolled a blitz. Smelling blood a wight, golem and wolf rushed forward to surf a wight on the right of the pitch, though rather than marking the likely carrier the wolf elected to hang about on the sidelines while the other wolf sprinted down to get a tackle zone on the ball. Unfortunately he failed the last GFI, leaving him prone in the middle of nowhere. Seeing a chance Can-Can grabbed the ball, handed off to the Ag4 carrier and formed a running cage in the middle of the pitch. Rapidly pulling back Claw managed to blitz down the carrier and get the ball spilled, but it wasn't enough - with the other positionals either heavily marked up or too far away from the action Claw simply couldn't pressure the ball enough to force another drop, allowing Can-Can to run in the final TD of the match on the last turn: 3-2 to Can-Can at full time.

I feel I blew it in the end. Dragon played well throughout, caging carefully, protecting against surfs and closing down blitz routes. Despite seeing this, and knowing a draw would be enough, I played too aggressively on the blitz which left both my wolves, one of the wights and one of the golems out of position on the final drive (and I've got no idea why I didn't use the blodgestep wolf to mark the likely carrier after the blitz). Despite the wrackle ghoul successfully downing Dragon's carrier I didn't have any other players free to pressure the ball, allowing a comparatively easy pick up and score. You live, you learn - well played Dragon, congratulations on your promotion.

Skill rolls were interesting, two zombies and a wolf ranked up and I finally got a double - a double 6 at that! Of course this was a zombie rather than the wolf, but I'll take a heavily gimped black orc over a block zombie any day of the week. TV's exploded so that might bite me on the ass, but strength 4 is always good right?

chadsexington
27-06-2012, 03:08 AM
Finally nuffle rewards instead of punishes! After some questionable dice making some un-fun matches kicking off my season, nuffle has rewarded me with a +1ST norse beserker.

I look forward to see him die on his first block next game

somanyrobots
27-06-2012, 07:28 AM
No word from 2lab on our matchup in Div E, and my US time zone probably makes getting it in tomorrow impossible and the rest of the week tricky. It will probably need defaulting.

EDIT: Also, I notice that Div 6 appears to have vanished off the sheet?

mrpier
27-06-2012, 08:08 AM
We don't speak of Div.6, ever.


Or it could have been removed due to all the internal shuffling that had to be done before this season.

sketchseven
27-06-2012, 12:12 PM
My Div H game against Rhylok needs adminning to a default win in my favour (yah for getting a by against the Dwarves) as Rhylok can't get the game in before the time's up.

Two wins and a loss for the season. Even if the first win was all about lucky play and the second win was all about not playing the game at all.

Also thanks to Helio; all his talk of gang fouling has made it into my game plan for big buggers on the opposing team. Although the only time I've used that tactic (PUG game against a random opponent, he had a ST6 Rat Ogre) their Apoc saved him.

EDIT: Should I update the sheet to reflect 2 - 0 default win? I think that's the correct numbers.

Heliocentric
27-06-2012, 12:21 PM
Also thanks to Helio; all his talk of gang fouling has made it into my game plan for big buggers on the opposing team. Although the only time I've used that tactic (PUG game against a random opponent, he had a ST6 Rat Ogre) their Apoc saved him.If he still has apothecaries left you are doing it wrong. With fouling you either go hard or go home.

Everblue
27-06-2012, 12:34 PM
Also thanks to Helio; all his talk of gang fouling has made it into my game plan for big buggers on the opposing team. Although the only time I've used that tactic (PUG game against a random opponent, he had a ST6 Rat Ogre) their Apoc saved him.

Yes, Helio has turned me into a gang-fouler too. I got a tiny bit of BM from my opponent in my last game for a turn 16 gang-foul.

LowKey
27-06-2012, 12:38 PM
I do in general think turn 16 fouls are in poor taste, unless they have one more turn of course

Heliocentric
27-06-2012, 12:40 PM
Yes, Helio has turned me into a gang-fouler too. I got a tiny bit of BM from my opponent in my last game for a turn 16 gang-foul.

Just remember in match 1 and 2 of a league, if you are winning you might want to leave your opponent in a reasonable state so he can still claw a victory in his second/third game and tie up an opponent. Or if you won game 1, but you are losing game 2 and your opponent wont game 1 too you need to try and cripple your opponents star player to improve your chances of strategic victory.

Turn sixteen fouling on game 3 of a season is just for lolz though.

ntw
27-06-2012, 12:43 PM
I've started preparing the sheet for next seasons changes.

Do not be alarmed by the change in appearance of the Tables Tab.

Also I'm probably going to slightly modify the schema by having -

Champs
Div1 / Div2
DivA / DivB / DivC / DivD
DivE / DivF / DivG / DivH
etc.

ntw
27-06-2012, 12:43 PM
I do in general think turn 16 fouls are in poor taste, unless they have one more turn of course

Agreed, unless you can recruit the corpse.

Squiz
27-06-2012, 12:58 PM
I do in general think turn 16 fouls are in poor taste, unless they have one more turn of courseNot poorer in taste than any turn 16 block imo, but I tend not to overdo it.

ntw
27-06-2012, 01:03 PM
at least you can get SPPs from T16 blocks though...

ntw
27-06-2012, 01:06 PM
@ DWZippy - your enthusiasm is commendable, but could you please change back your team to it's current name and race until the end of the season? :)

ntw
27-06-2012, 01:21 PM
And I've borked the fixtures tab, I'll sort it when I get home :S

LowKey
27-06-2012, 01:22 PM
Yeah exactly ntw, blocks are the major spp source for a lot of players, fould are a tactical decision but grant you no spp so doing it on the last turn of the game is just a bit mean

Everblue
27-06-2012, 01:25 PM
Turn sixteen fouling on game 3 of a season is just for lolz though.

By "my last game", I meant a different league actually (as you'd know if you read my blog, I mean SHEEEESH!!11). It was the second game of a seven game season, where I had fluked a draw on turn 15 and was as high as a kite. My opponent had won his first game and should have won the second, so I thought getting rid of a wolf was worthwhile given that this team is likely to be near the top of the league.

Also my opponent had not congratulated me on the TD, which is bad manners, so he deserved it.

President Weasel
27-06-2012, 01:28 PM
There's a massive difference between a turn 16 block, which can net you 2spps, and a turn 16 foul, which can't. If there's still a possibility of the opponent scoring and the foul could potentially affect that, fine. If the opponent has been unnecessarily vicious during the game and deserves payback, fine.
Otherwise, not fine. There's no justification for doing it; even trying to injure one of his better players to nerf his team in a long-term league is a dick move, and doing it just to stamp on one of his toys is the action of a toddler who needs a slap.


(This is just my opinion, and I'm no one-man morality arbitration committee. But it's a strongly-held and properly thought-through one).
I note that, due to my typing this post while Everblue was posting his, I just kind of called him a dick - but one swallow doesn't make a summer, and just because he pulled off a bit of a dick move once that doesn't make him a dick :)

JayTee
27-06-2012, 01:30 PM
Turn sixteen fouling on game 3 of a season is just for lolz though.Unless you're fouling an elf; then it's encouraged.

Kapouille
27-06-2012, 01:44 PM
at least you can get SPPs from T16 blocks though...

Oh, so now, one doesn't get SPPs from fouling...

Everblue
27-06-2012, 01:44 PM
I note that, due to my typing this post while Everblue was posting his, I just kind of called him a dick - but one swallow doesn't make a summer, and just because he pulled off a bit of a dick move once that doesn't make him a dick :)

Noted, thank you.

:)

EDIT - But ultimately doesn't this hark back to our discussion earlier in the week re Claw/Piling On? Some people like the idea of building a team over time, seeing it grow and players get more experienced. That's not all that BB has always been about though, is it? This isn't Championship Manager, it's also about players dying and been killed in amusing and satisfying ways.

In my (further) defence, the foul was a cathartic experience for me. It had been a crappy game, I'd had some awful dice, I'd seen my players beaten up and off the park by yet another boring Norse team, and despite all that I had managed to get a draw and stay unbeaten. My handwritten notes for the match report have eight exclamation marks in my comments re the touchdown. I was absofuckinglutely delighted. My opponent then got all grumpy with me after the TD, and tried injure my few remaining players on his last turn (via blocking, admittedly) rather than farming an SPP via a pass.

So I was like, "screw you Mr Bad Loser, I'm going try and hurt your wolf." I should say that I deliberately ignored his star blitzer (who had 3 casualties in the game) who was also on the deck, so maybe subconsciously I knew that what I was doing was wrong.

The meaning of life, my son, is that it's not all about keeping a stiff upper lip and bottling up your emotions. Let it out! Kick the bastard's imaginary werewolf and make yourself feel better!

ntw
27-06-2012, 01:45 PM
sheet refixed, until the end of the season at least

Skydancer
27-06-2012, 01:46 PM
There's a massive difference between a turn 16 block, which can net you 2spps, and a turn 16 foul, which can't. If there's still a possibility of the opponent scoring and the foul could potentially affect that, fine. If the opponent has been unnecessarily vicious during the game and deserves payback, fine.
Otherwise, not fine. There's no justification for doing it; even trying to injure one of his better players to nerf his team in a long-term league is a dick move, and doing it just to stamp on one of his toys is the action of a toddler who needs a slap.


(This is just my opinion, and I'm no one-man morality arbitration committee. But it's a strongly-held and properly thought-through one).
I note that, due to my typing this post while Everblue was posting his, I just kind of called him a dick - but one swallow doesn't make a summer, and just because he pulled off a bit of a dick move once that doesn't make him a dick :)


Totally agreed. If there's only one thing COMPLETELY unsportsmanlike in BB is turn 16 fouling.

Kapouille
27-06-2012, 01:48 PM
Totally agreed. If there's only one thing COMPLETELY unsportsmanlike in BB is turn 16 fouling.

Even if you didn't know that it didn't award SPPs? I'm just saying that because a friend told me he's done it.

Heliocentric
27-06-2012, 01:51 PM
Unless you're fouling an elf; then it's encouraged.

or you are undead/khemri/necro and no-one has died yet, then its recruitment.

Heliocentric
27-06-2012, 01:58 PM
There's no justification for doing it; even trying to injure one of his better players to nerf his team in a long-term league is a dick move, and doing it just to stamp on one of his toys is the action of a toddler who needs a slap.

(This is just my opinion, and I'm no one-man morality arbitration committee. But it's a strongly-held and properly thought-through one).

Sometimes a ST5 elf, or a MV11 gutter runner walks onto the pitch. I have warned about my fouling, I am very vocal about it, its not a suprise.
If you don't want him fouled run out of range or cage him here's the deal.
The moment you step a player onto the pitch, he is forfiet, you used him against me, I am going to use my players against him. If people are so worried about players getting T16 curb stomped leave him on the bench for the second half.

If you think its wrong get league rules that punish transgression (force players to buy and fire cheer leaders for example) but don't tell people they cant, they just not Bloodbowl.

I find the arrogance of players who demand the right to use crap with immense strengths against me and then sulk because I try to damage it. Of course I am damaging it, to teach you what happens when you step crap like that onto the pitch.

[/Nation anthem]

Skydancer
27-06-2012, 02:00 PM
Sometimes a ST5 elf, or a MV11 gutter runner walks onto the pitch. I have warned about my fouling, I am very vocal about it, its not a suprise.
If you don't want him fouled run out of range or cage him here's the deal.
The moment you step a player onto the pitch, he is forfiet, you used him against me, I am going to use my players against him. If people are so worried about players getting T16 curb stomped leave him on the bench for the second half.

If you think its wrong get league rules that punish transgression (force players to buy and fire cheer leaders for example) but don't tell people they cant, they just not Bloodbowl.

I find the arrogance of players who demand the right to use crap with immense strengths against me and then sulk because I try to damage it. Of course I am damaging it, to teach you what happens when you step crap like that onto the pitch.

[/Nation anthem]

Doesn't net you anything. No, don't cite making a zombie out of him as a reason.

Everblue
27-06-2012, 02:05 PM
Doesn't net you anything. No, don't cite making a zombie out of him as a reason.

To bring it back to the werewolf example, he tried to hurt my players with that piece in turn 16 of the game. 2 SPPs is neither here nor there. I've had games before where we called it a draw after 14 turns and agreed a ceasefire, but if you want to develop your players at the expense of hurting mine, doesn't there need to be a moral hazard? Otherwise it just encourages people to bully weakened opponents with no realistic fear of retaliation?

ChainsawHands
27-06-2012, 02:11 PM
Blood Bowl's a competitive game: yes, we play for fun, but we play to win. (Obviously you can have friendly matches and whatever, but in a league environment it's a competitive thing.)

Fouling during a match can help you win the match. Fouling on turn 16 can help you win the league. I see no meaningful distinction between them.

That's not to say fouling's always a good idea - if you've beaten someone 5-0 it's probably counter-productive to leave them in an even worse state for facing the rest of your opponents later in the season. Or if you've already killed or crippled half their team then it might be moving into the realms of needless cruelty, and it might under those circumstances be unsportsmanlike. But suggesting that it's somehow unsportsmanlike to use a turn 16 foul to attempt to win a competitive game? That just strikes me as bizarre.

ChainsawHands
27-06-2012, 02:26 PM
Doesn't net you anything. No, don't cite making a zombie out of him as a reason.Why is it OK to kill a player to get 2 SPP, but not OK to kill a player to get a zombie?

Heliocentric
27-06-2012, 02:27 PM
"Bloodbowl is not meant to be balanced"
"Turn 16 fouls=bad"
"If it doesn't generate SPP, or win games you shouldn't do it"

Ivory tower statements by players who will demand others do as they say without suggesting methods of control or assurance that others will not do it to the suplicants.

Also, Assassin's shouldn't stab, Bombardiers shouldn't bomb, loony shouldn't attack, ogres can't throw snotling at people, and crowdpush is bad too.

Is that everything?

Rakysh
27-06-2012, 02:28 PM
Personally I'm on the side of not-fouling, especially not on turn sixteen, but I don't think there's some overarching moral imperative not to. It's how I choose to play my games- I can't play other people's games for them. Whether I'd be quite so accepting if someone killed one of my werewolves or my 4 strength wight on turn 16 I'm not sure, but in the cold light of day that's my two cents.

@Helio- are you then saying that if you were against, say, a halfling team on turn 16 and the treemen were off already, you wouldn't foul?

Kapouille
27-06-2012, 02:30 PM
@Helio- are you then saying that if you were against, say, a halfling team on turn 16 and the treemen were off already, you wouldn't foul?

/me experiences flashbacks

Alistair Hutton
27-06-2012, 02:33 PM
Doesn't net you anything. No, don't cite making a zombie out of him as a reason.

If Helio's threat to foul is heeded to the extent that the oppostion leaves the valuable piece on the bench then Helio has made massive gains. If the opponent thinks Helio is bluffing then it is imperative that Helio performs the turn 16 foul otherwise people will think he's all bluster and his threat is rendered empty words.

This is particularaly important if the player ended up on the floor due to trying to do something, like score a touch down or blitz the ball carrier, the price of failure is a really solid kicking. Without the threat of a really solid kicking on turn 16 then that gives the owner of the wonder piece cart blanche to try crazy plays that they simply wouldn't consider if a high chance of edeath was a potential outcome.

And I say all this as a player who's fouled less than 10 times in 15 years of playing Blood Bowl.

mrpier
27-06-2012, 02:35 PM
Another reason to foul in turn 16, your opponent tried a one turn touchdown but failed, now his filthy one-turner is down and it is time to punish that attempt by stomping it into the ground so he doesn't attempt it again.

I'll agree that turn 16 fouling without any benefit to your team is about as close to unsportsmanlike in bloodbowl as it gets, but if you lose 0-4 and a vindictive foul is all the satisfaction you're going to get out of it, then why not.

Heliocentric
27-06-2012, 02:39 PM
/me experiences flashbacks

I've actually mellowed with fouling. I am nowhere near as much trying to use foul as a second blitz action as I used to.

But Halflings? The have stunty and dodge, this makes them hard to block or even blitz with my skill less MV4 linemen. (1 in 6 block dice are useful)

Wheras fouling is super likely to go my way with as little as 2 assists.

Let me put it plainly from my internal philosophy.
I can't in good conscious tell my opponents not to foul me. Where does that leave me?

ChainsawHands
27-06-2012, 02:41 PM
I actually rarely foul, but it's not because I think it's wrong, it's just that there's almost always something better I could be doing.

Rakysh
27-06-2012, 02:43 PM
That doesn't square with the idea that you use it to get even with higher tier teams though. Everyone's going to bag on Halflings anyway, why hit one of the few skill-upped players they do have for no in-match benefit and no league benefit (seeing as Halflings are almost certainly not going to win the division)? I'm not having a go, I'm genuinely interested in your reasoning, but I'm not sure I believe


I find the arrogance of players who demand the right to use crap with immense strengths against me and then sulk because I try to damage it. Of course I am damaging it, to teach you what happens when you step crap like that onto the pitch.
If it is true, then fair enough, but I think it's more interesting than that.

Heliocentric
27-06-2012, 02:44 PM
If Helio's threat to foul is heeded to the extent that the oppostion leaves the valuable piece on the bench then Helio has made massive gains. If the opponent thinks Helio is bluffing then it is imperative that Helio performs the turn 16 foul otherwise people will think he's all bluster and his threat is rendered empty words.

This is particularaly important if the player ended up on the floor due to trying to do something, like score a touch down or blitz the ball carrier, the price of failure is a really solid kicking. Without the threat of a really solid kicking on turn 16 then that gives the owner of the wonder piece cart blanche to try crazy plays that they simply wouldn't consider if a high chance of death was a potential outcome.

And I say all this as a player who's fouled less than 10 times in 15 years of playing Blood Bowl.
That was put much better than I could of.

I add to this, I'm going DElf next season. I'm not smurfing under a new username, I will no doubt pay for my reputation. Feel free to T16 me, but don't be a hypocrite with it.

Everblue
27-06-2012, 02:49 PM
That doesn't square with the idea that you use it to get even with higher tier teams though. Everyone's going to bag on Halflings anyway, why hit one of the few skill-upped players they do have for no in-match benefit and no league benefit (seeing as Halflings are almost certainly not going to win the division)? I'm not having a go, I'm genuinely interested in your reasoning, but I'm not sure I believe

If it is true, then fair enough, but I think it's more interesting than that.

If a halfling kills your player, it's still as dead if it was a clawed piling-on minotaur that did the damage. Arguably the risk for the halfling player in being a sneaky git is less, because all you can kill in retaliation is 30k worth of useless stunty rubbish. That said, I don't think I would foul in those circumstances, because essentially I'd feel sorry for the halfling player desperately trying to develop his or her team but getting stomped by orcs all the time.

Alistair Hutton
27-06-2012, 02:56 PM
That was put much better than I could of.

I add to this, I'm going DElf next season. I'm not smurfing under a new username, I will no doubt pay for my reputation. Feel free to T16 me, but don't be a hypocrite with it.

Witch Elves, they gave an Elf Frenzy, it's like they want her to die.

When ever I see someone recommend Wrestle or Piling on as a Witch Elf skill up I do chortle a little.

NieA7
27-06-2012, 02:59 PM
I actually rarely foul, but it's not because I think it's wrong, it's just that there's almost always something better I could be doing.

This. I tend to only foul in circumstances which must make me look like a complete bastard - when I've already got a numbers advantage on the pitch and an important player is down. The risk/reward usually isn't there - either you've got to move a load of your players out of position, or you've probably got crappy odds of breaking armour. Turn 16 not so much, unless, of course, it's an elf.

Heliocentric
27-06-2012, 03:01 PM
That said, I don't think I would foul in those circumstances, because essentially I'd feel sorry for the halfling player desperately trying to develop his or her team but getting stomped by orcs all the time.Yeah, if I had a real team with real players ... (Okay, I'll stop bagging on Undead now) But, I had 4 1up Blodge capable players, these are also my ball carriers, they are AV7, with no chance of an apothecary. I've had ghouls killed and retired by fouls BEFORE I stated being a bastard(my blodger ghouls got mercilessly targeted to the point I stopped giving them block) with it.

In short, I stopped taking blodge, on my 4 blodge capable players (without doubles) because of fouling opponents.
My only precious players in the whole team. I'm actually the victim here! [/emotional music]

Now I am going to be DElf mainly because of unanimous blodge access and 6 players are half way there, 4 of those have AV8 (I'd go Amazon but I have a phobia of being set against dwarves and never recovering) I truely expect my blodgers to get fouled, but I am going to have means to mitigate its devastation.

I have spared opponents who I feel offer no threat to my promotion, but not always. Sometimes they run their standing players to the corners of the pitch, or refuse to get up... What exactly am I meant to do with that?

This. I tend to only foul in circumstances which must make me look like a complete bastard - when I've already got a numbers advantage on the pitch and an important player is down. The risk/reward usually isn't there - either you've got to move a load of your players out of position, or you've probably got crappy odds of breaking armour.
I'm happy with taking risks, sometimes my line-up isn't ever going to win a straight game, i need to bend it a little and hope it doesn't break.


When ever I see someone recommend Wrestle or Piling on as a Witch Elf skill up I do chortle a little.

To be fair, shes useful out of the box, so if she dies? Funds permitting obviously.

Kapouille
27-06-2012, 03:02 PM
because all you can kill in retaliation is 30k worth of useless stunty rubbish.

Ey! I could take offense in that ;)

Kapouille
27-06-2012, 03:05 PM
I actually rarely foul, but it's not because I think it's wrong, it's just that there's almost always something better I could be doing.

This is true for most teams. Only a handful really can take benefit from it (due to, say, abovementionned rubishness, for instance) as the risk/reward ratio mostly offsets any benefit from fouling if you team is half competent.

Heliocentric
27-06-2012, 03:08 PM
If it is true, then fair enough, but I think it's more interesting than that.
I legitimately spent a whole game failing to knock over halflings, I cant even blame the treemen who spent the whole game playing pinata with a zombie who would not lie down for long.

We are talking mighty blow triple dice blitzes turning into triple pushes, that game changed me.

Kajo
27-06-2012, 03:11 PM
In my last game against Screwie, i fouled his ag5 NoS elf because i could get a tactical advantage from that;

Then i got a chance to gang foul someone on T16, and i did not use that chance, even if I got to use my Necromancer..

I'm generally uneasy when it comes down to stomp an already stomped down foe


And i see now the changes of the league: me sad :(
I've got 4 promotions in a row and can get the 5th (tough that's unlikely), you can't change the league now :( :P

President Weasel
27-06-2012, 03:12 PM
Witch Elves, they gave an Elf Frenzy, it's like they want her to die.

When ever I see someone recommend Wrestle or Piling on as a Witch Elf skill up I do chortle a little.

Well they do come with jump up, and both of those skills have good synergy with that. Plus as the lowest-AV player on the team she's not likely to survive that long anyway, whether or not you use a strategy that leaves her on the ground a lot.

Kapouille
27-06-2012, 03:47 PM
But Halflings? The have stunty and dodge, this makes them hard to block or even blitz with my skill less MV4 linemen. (1 in 6 block dice are useful)

Wheras fouling is super likely to go my way with as little as 2 assists.



I wasn't talking about our past match, more like it conjured images of pitches with only a couple of treemen left in the field and a lot of enemies surrounding them.

X_kot
27-06-2012, 03:59 PM
Hutton's post about the projection of power is appreciated. :)

Screwie
27-06-2012, 03:59 PM
I actually rarely foul, but it's not because I think it's wrong, it's just that there's almost always something better I could be doing.

Very much agreed on the second part.

With my goblin teams I almost never foul. With all the abuse they take, typically I just can't afford to have another little guy leave the pitch if I roll the dreaded double. Even the looney is better served knocking people down than gang fouling. Oh, one exception - I use the bombardier to foul. All the time too, unless he has a more important target still on their feet.

As for Turn 16 moves, it really depends on the league.

If it was an open-ended league like the Challenge League, I would think it's seriously bad form. That place is friendly, context-free and purely developmental. But I have come to recognise the tactical importance when league results have context, even if I don't especially like it and don't take advantage of it myself.

I'll probably still complain when it happens, but if you're allowed to foul on Turn 16 then I'm allowed to hate you for it. (That's my retaliation in Turn 17.) :P


Well they do come with jump up, and both of those skills have good synergy with that. Plus as the lowest-AV player on the team she's not likely to survive that long anyway, whether or not you use a strategy that leaves her on the ground a lot.

Until they get Block/Juggernaut, witch elves are quite capable of putting themselves in the dug out with 1D frenzy blocks. I probably wouldn't bother fouling them unless they were sufficiently advanced.

Runners and assassins are much better targets, really. Same AV, no Dodge, and no Jump Up so they're easier to slow down. But people just seem to fear the witch elf. :)


When ever I see someone recommend Wrestle or Piling on as a Witch Elf skill up I do chortle a little.

Yeah..... never again. >.>

Jiiiiim
27-06-2012, 04:27 PM
Ah, the fouling debate. I don't tend to foul because it tends to destroy my position. But it's in the rules so I can't demand somebody not foul me, alas. Jacobi seems to get gangfouled at the end of every RPS Open game anyway.

2lab
27-06-2012, 04:33 PM
I havn't been able to get much time this week, so it's a default for me. I'm going to be busy alot so I'll be dropping out of the league untill this so called summer is over.

Gorm
27-06-2012, 04:37 PM
Turn 16 fouls just seem lame. Doing it during the game when it can actually make a difference is fine, not that i would enjoy it but i get it. But Turn 16 fouling a player even though, in the dod, especially you arent likely to meet the team again soon just seems spiteful.
But then the argument just comes down to, "Hey thats not cool dude" and "Someone did it to me so i can do it to anyone."

Heliocentric
27-06-2012, 05:01 PM
I need to add that a furious foul rampage actually won me a game this season. My bastardry caused a coach to quit out.

I won in 3 turns by being a monster. I felt quite vindicated. Remember this if you are ever getting fouled onto ash.
You are allowed to conceed.

Everblue
27-06-2012, 05:11 PM
But then the argument just comes down to, "Hey thats not cool dude" and "Someone did it to me so i can do it to anyone."

It’s actually been a useful discussion to allow me to reflect on my T16 fouling career (standing at 1 to date) and whether I’d continue. My conclusion is that if someone is hitting my players late in the game for the sole purpose of hurting them and farming SPPs, then I’m going to give their players a kicking if I can. I’m pretty sure that’s fair either way. I don't care about their 2SPPs - if they are trying to hurt my players, then I'm going to fight dirty.

So for me it kind of depends on how the other guy wants the game to go. But anyway, I've said that already so I'll shut up for a bit.

potatoedoughnut
27-06-2012, 05:43 PM
I don't see a problem with turn 16 fouls. This has already been argued to death, so I don't want to keep flogging a dead horse, but most of time time you will meet an opponent again or their other games in the league will impact your own performance, so fouling T16 isn't much different than fouling T1.

Also, as CH mentioned I usually have better things to do on a given turn than foul. That being said I feel like consciously thinking about and incorporating some light fouling into my playbook has improved my game. The past several seasons I've been reliably able to induce 200k+ every game and a bribe can be an excellent way to even the TVs a bit (I've gotten more use from bribes than wizards most games).

Corkir
27-06-2012, 05:54 PM
Welcome, and I've fixed the Race Balance sheet a bit - people hadn't been updating the Season Info sheet correctly. Now it is more accurate, however it still shows people who are still in this season, but quitting next season.

Ta. dark elf has gone from full to nearly empty so i have switched. Now i just need a couple more people to drop out or join so i dont have to sit out next season.

cyberpunkdreams
27-06-2012, 05:58 PM
(I've gotten more use from bribes than wizards most games).

Apart from our friendly last night where your wizard exploded my cage and killed one of my dudes! :p

LowKey
27-06-2012, 06:15 PM
Wow this turned into a bit of a thing! I certainly dont begrudge people doing it and i would never want to say make a rule to stop it! Its part of the game and thats ok, making it into a morale thing is a bit extreme however!

Rakysh
27-06-2012, 06:39 PM
It seems that every blood bowler as an opinion on a) turn 16 fouling, b) Claw+POMBing and c) what race DW should play next season.

Everblue
27-06-2012, 06:40 PM
@Lowkey
Ah but the moral questions in life are the ones worth debating! Good vs evil, the moral law of Kant vs Bentian utilitarianism, sesquipedalian bullshit vs cod philosophy 101!

I've been quite bored at work today so this thread has kept me nicely entertained. Also I have decided to start an Ogre team. It's been a good day.

20phoenix
27-06-2012, 06:47 PM
I dont foul with my league teams often. Not because I think its wrong - because as my league teams are elf/skaven I cant afford to have a 100k+ player off the pitch or in the skaven case - with av7 you lose players fast enough anyway. Exceptions are made when a game changing player hits the deck but thats about it.

However my goblin team in the SSC can and do foul a lot. A fine example being my last game where I pulled out a draw after conceding a TD on my offensive drive. I drew by fouling all but two of his players off the pitch (a few were legitimately hit). The replay is excellent viewing - it was like an offensive drive up the pitch clearing players off the pitch before pushing higher.

T16 fouls in MM where you're all trying to develop sides and damaging the other guy gets you no benefits whatsoever is not cool. I lost a ST4 block/MB high elf thrower and was livid. In a league environment its all fair game imho. You want to be the best team in the league? Why not smooth your progress by removing a few troublesome individuals on the way? I also think Alastair Hutton said it very succinctly when he said it can discourage your opponents from making certain decisions. This can only benefit you.

With regards to witches why wouldnt you want at least one wrackle witch? Better movement than linos and comes with jump up out of the box. You only need to give her two skills to make her a pretty potent ball hunter.

potatoedoughnut
27-06-2012, 07:11 PM
Apart from our friendly last night where your wizard exploded my cage and killed one of my dudes! :p

The exception that proves it! I've fireballed similar cages and not even knocked 1 player down.

Heliocentric
27-06-2012, 08:37 PM
Wow this turned into a bit of a thing! I certainly dont begrudge people doing it and i would never want to say make a rule to stop it! Its part of the game and thats ok, making it into a morale thing is a bit extreme however!
People are saying its morally wrong, if you go "meh", they have the dominant voice, extremist begats extremists.

That said, I don't think of it as some "begotten right", but I get fed up with people overlaying their own rules and then acting like you are a dick if you don't follow them, we get enough of that in real life.

I'm not a troll hiding behind anonymity and striking without warning, I am a culpable opponent who is ready to face the consequences by way of my opponents reaction. Don't like what I'm doing? Try and stop me.
http://i.qkme.me/35jwj6.jpg
edit: pic too big

LowKey
27-06-2012, 09:02 PM
Bloodbowl, serious buisness

Gorm
27-06-2012, 09:16 PM
Heliocentric is making a moral point about how little power we have in every day life. By fouling other peoples players he is fighting for us all when in real life we cant just arrange for someones death when life gives us lemons.

NieA7
27-06-2012, 09:38 PM
Heliocentric is making a moral point about how little power we have in every day life. By fouling other peoples players he is fighting for us all when in real life we cant just arrange for someones death when life gives us lemons.

When life gives you lemons KILL THEM ALL.

Dog Pants
27-06-2012, 09:44 PM
People are saying its morally wrong, if you go "meh", they have the dominant voice, extremist begats extremists.

I see your point there, I'll lend my voice. I have no objection to T16 fouls, it's part of the game and the game is supposed to be brutal. I think of it as fun, in the Dwarf Fortress sense, and if I had a player die to a T16 foul I'd (hopefully, it's easy to say this now) chuckle and call my opponent a bastard. As long as everyone's pleasant and civil in chat then anything goes on the pitch. I don't tend to do it myself - I may or may not have but can't remember as I don't really pay it much heed - but only because it's just not something I do in general, I don't usually think it's worth the risk.

Note that as Khemri I may have some skeletons who disagree with that last statement, just in case anyone quotes this in the future.

sketchseven
27-06-2012, 09:50 PM
Wasn't really expecting a throwaway comment about fouling to have sparked quite this much of a discussion. The foul on the Rat Ogre was on turn 1 or turn 2 of the game, resulted in a lineman being sent off and his apoc rescuing the damn beast to come back on after a completely ineffectual drive.

It was, incidentally, a classic example of being outplayed by a Skaven team - deep kicks that have gutter runners putting pressure on the ball carrier from the very first turn, followed by turnovers, followed by me being completely unable to hurt any of them.

ADMIN TYPES - should I update the spreadsheet to show that Rhylok and I can't play our game and he has agreed to default the win to me as he's the one that couldn't make it, or just leave it?

Alistair Hutton
27-06-2012, 10:08 PM
With regards to witches why wouldnt you want at least one wrackle witch? Better movement than linos and comes with jump up out of the box. You only need to give her two skills to make her a pretty potent ball hunter.

Because the first time she uses wrestle should be the last time she's seen on the pitch.

It should be an effort for the opposition to get your Witch Elves onto the ground, you shouldn't give them a helping hand.

Gutter Runners can get way with Wrestle because the first gutter Runner Wrestles the ball carrier down then the second ( and the possibly third and forth combining) one picks up the ball and scores which gets the first one back on their feet.

Zoraster
27-06-2012, 10:30 PM
Because the first time she uses wrestle should be the last time she's seen on the pitch.

In truth they have better survival rates on the ground, but that is another topic altogether.... stupid foul nerf. Wrestle witches win games. There is a section of BB coaches who rather forget that you get skills on players to make your team more effective. So often you see coaches get great rolls, put together a superstar, and then spend all their time trying to protect the player. Let her win games, let her burn bright and accept the downside that produces balance. It only takes one game to level a new one :)

By the by a Wrestle Witch was the key player in the Open champion team last season.

Heliocentric
27-06-2012, 10:37 PM
Wasn't really expecting a throwaway comment about fouling to have sparked quite this much of a discussion.
Hey, it was a good conversation, be proud ^_^

The only issue with witches is the cash, they are like a star player once you get them block/wrestle, TBH I'd prefer a mercenary witch+wrestle to a star player sometimes.

ntw
27-06-2012, 10:39 PM
Well, that was surprising.

Despite Jarvis having an advantage of 510TV ("Why hello Mr 'N Thorg, please line up just over....here"), I managed to beat him 3-1

The last TD was thoroughly undeserved, particularly since I somehow managed to misclick 2 turns in succession, wasting perfect Blitz opportunities. Also LineRat Fodder7 died in his first ever match, then naturally got awarded MVP. In more positive news however one of my GutterRunners levelled up and is now a ManRunner :


"Unholy Nuffle's crusty underpants Jim, is that a GutterRunner with THE STRENGTH OF A MAN that I see?"
"Yes Bob. And look, there are two more next to him making 3 ManRunners in a single team."

Heliocentric
27-06-2012, 10:45 PM
"Unholy Nuffle's crusty underpants Jim, is that a GutterRunner with THE STRENGTH OF A MAN that I see?"
"Yes Bob. And look, there are two more next to him making 3 ManRunners in a single team."

Its such a waste of TV >_<

ntw
27-06-2012, 10:54 PM
<Snip>...ADMIN TYPES - should I update the spreadsheet to show that Rhylok and I can't play our game and he has agreed to default the win to me as he's the one that couldn't make it, or just leave it?

Has Rhylok missed any other games?

Kapouille
27-06-2012, 10:55 PM
4 - 0

Right. At least I only had one death on a brand new Halfling.

I welcome the soft warmth of lower leagues with a light heart and wallet.

Cacamas played well as well, there was nothing I could do. I'm sorry, but this time, the total lack of Nuffle support was such that I left myself drift out of game. Couldn't manage to keep the spirits high.

Heliocentric
27-06-2012, 10:58 PM
I welcome the soft warmth of lower leagues with a light heart and wallet.

You realise I'm restarting right? :D

Kapouille
27-06-2012, 10:59 PM
You realise I'm restarting right? :D

You will learn to fear me.

Heliocentric
27-06-2012, 11:00 PM
You will learn to fear me.
Whoah, Necromancy has a free slot *yoink*

Kapouille
27-06-2012, 11:02 PM
Whoah, Necromancy has a free slot *yoink*

Ascending object meets freefalling one = impact.

MadDave123
27-06-2012, 11:04 PM
Why is it OK to kill a player to get 2 SPP, but not OK to kill a player to get a zombie?What about making a rotter? I like my rotters.

Heliocentric
27-06-2012, 11:07 PM
Ascending object meets freefalling one = impact.

Timber?

To be fair, I've been watching Necro and Lizard team levels like an old lady eagerly awaiting tea on a cold day.

Its bashing brutality with MV8 players, sure AG4 Skinks are terrifying in that they simply cannot be stopped(or stopped from passing and catching with nerves of steel), but werewolves are a triple threat of ball carrier hunter, runner and regenerating bastard.


What about making a rotter? I like my rotters.
To be fair, a rotter is more worthy than a zombie, undead teams are dirty rich, Nurgle can be strapped for cash by a bad run.

Cacamas
27-06-2012, 11:18 PM
A bullet-point summary for the impatient or PowerPoint-obsessed:
* A Blitz event on the first turn kick off allows elf catcher to get under the kicked ball.
* Second turn, catcher skips out of the surrounding cover to score.
* Halfling lands on his head when thrown
* Elves recover ball and score again just before half-time.
* Touch back plus a Quick Snap means cage formed easily around thrower at the start of second half.
* Simple drive down left flank results in TD 3 turns later.
* Weird bug means treeman lines up deep in own half where he was invisible until setup was finished.
* Halfling attempts to pick up, fails. Elves rush position, take ball and nip in for another TD.
* Halfling lands on his head when thrown, game ends
* Some choice stats:
* 4/12 KOs recovered for the 'lings
* 4/10 dodges succeeded for the 'lings
* 81% block success rate for the elves, while it was 34% for the 'lings
* 2 re-rolls used by elves in entire game with 3 to spare, while 13 were used by 'lings.

Thanks for the game Kapouille, well done for taking such horrible dice with such good humour.

Top Brass 4 - 0 Tuftybushe Fruitcakes

Kapouille
27-06-2012, 11:31 PM
A bullet-point summary for the impatient or PowerPoint-obsessed
Top Brass 4 - 0 Tuftybushe Fruitcakes


That's a pretty awesome summary Cacamas :D

If you remove all those, I could have tied the game 0 - 0!

2lab
27-06-2012, 11:37 PM
I need to add that a furious foul rampage actually won me a game this season. My bastardry caused a coach to quit out.

I won in 3 turns by being a monster. I felt quite vindicated. Remember this if you are ever getting fouled onto ash.
You are allowed to conceed.

The fouls didn't make me quit, you only got one in.

Let not reality get in the way of a bad story.

sketchseven
27-06-2012, 11:57 PM
Has Rhylok missed any other games?


Er I think he also defaulted the previous match to mine which was with Xenny - I remember when we were first trying to organise the match, he was hoping to get that in first and hadn't realised that he'd already defaulted.

I think he's in the middle of moving which has messed things up a bit. If the done thing is to take a 0 - 0 draw than that's cool too, it's the first match I've not been able to play. We arranged it once, my Steam threw a hissy fit and refused to let me log in, we were subsequently unable to arrange a new time as he wasn't able to find space to get the game in.

Heliocentric
28-06-2012, 12:10 AM
The fouls didn't make me quit, you only got one in.

Let not reality get in the way of a bad story.
2 and they were both knockouts.
*checks BB manager*
Yep, the foul KO was the last action of the match.

edit wait: these logs are hard to read

edit: How did I remember that wrong >_<

Everblue
28-06-2012, 12:14 AM
Rhylok's horrible dwarves beat me 1-0 in week 1...

Alini
28-06-2012, 07:54 AM
On holiday until Monday, looking forward to the new system, hope it's easier for the admins :)

Kajo
28-06-2012, 08:37 AM
Well, that was surprising.

Despite Jarvis having an advantage of 510TV ("Why hello Mr 'N Thorg, please line up just over....here"), I managed to beat him 3-1

The last TD was thoroughly undeserved, particularly since I somehow managed to misclick 2 turns in succession, wasting perfect Blitz opportunities. Also LineRat Fodder7 died in his first ever match, then naturally got awarded MVP. In more positive news however one of my GutterRunners levelled up and is now a ManRunner :

"Unholy Nuffle's crusty underpants Jim, is that a GutterRunner with THE STRENGTH OF A MAN that I see?"
"Yes Bob. And look, there are two more next to him making 3 ManRunners in a single team."


Yay! 4th promotion in a row! :D

Kajo
28-06-2012, 08:45 AM
To be fair, I've been watching Necro and Lizard team levels like an old lady eagerly awaiting tea on a cold day.

Its bashing brutality with MV8 players, sure AG4 Skinks are terrifying in that they simply cannot be stopped(or stopped from passing and catching with nerves of steel), but werewolves are a triple threat of ball carrier hunter, runner and regenerating bastard.

Sadly ww don't have access to strength skills without a double :(

AND they like to die.

ntw
28-06-2012, 08:56 AM
Er I think he also defaulted the previous match to mine which was with Xenny - I remember when we were first trying to organise the match, he was hoping to get that in first and hadn't realised that he'd already defaulted.

I think he's in the middle of moving which has messed things up a bit. If the done thing is to take a 0 - 0 draw than that's cool too, it's the first match I've not been able to play. We arranged it once, my Steam threw a hissy fit and refused to let me log in, we were subsequently unable to arrange a new time as he wasn't able to find space to get the game in.


I think a 2-0 default is probably fairest, no blame levelled at Rhylok.

groovychainsaw
28-06-2012, 09:27 AM
Adding to the 'werewolves like to die' theory - I have more dead werewolves than snotlings in the last 10 games in the other leagues. True fact.

Also - I think 0-0 for Rhylok's game might be the right decision, if they both made an effort to play (it sounds like Rhylok was available, but steam prevented the game getting started?)

NieA7
28-06-2012, 09:45 AM
Werewolves are one of the few genuine star players (along with Witch Elves, Wardancers, Gutter Runners and Bull Centaurs for my money. Possibly the Beast as well), but they're a bit weird in that while they do everything well they don't do anything fantastically. Their first four skills pretty much pick themselves (blodge, sidestep, tackle), so unless you luck out on a stat or a double they often don't have the overt impact on a match the other stars can have. The fact that they're good at everything tends to encourage risk taking (especially given that their team mates, aside from the golem's, are all rather average), hence their limited life span - I've had a level 4 one die, not only does it suck, it really holds back the rest of the team until the replacement gets up to speed.

Squiz
28-06-2012, 09:48 AM
Yay! 4th promotion in a row! :DI wish I were this lucky with my opponents' other plays. Won two games this season 2-0 but unfortunately I had Prester's pesky plant plowers in my Division and he ran away with the score.

This means yet another round of new-team-bashing for my Orcs. If I see it correctly, I'll still be in the bottom level of Divisions next season, due to the new system. Let's hope that the new guys don't forget to bring their armor.

Kapouille
28-06-2012, 09:54 AM
I wish I were this lucky with my opponents' other plays. Won two games this season 2-0 but unfortunately I had Prester's pesky plant plowers in my Division and he ran away with the score.

This means yet another round of new-team-bashing for my Orcs. If I see it correctly, I'll still be in the bottom level of Divisions next season, due to the new system. Let's hope that the new guys don't forget to bring their armor.

See you there! Note that I'll likely be coming from the top.

President Weasel
28-06-2012, 09:56 AM
Yay! 4th promotion in a row! :D

Grats!
I think given the choice I'd rather have three 'man-runners' in a skaven team, and get promoted next time. Especially if you can then get a double, put horns on one, and turn him into an unholy 9-movement beastman with the agility of an elf.

Screwie
28-06-2012, 10:03 AM
Seriously surprised by that result, ntw. Well done.

Well done to Kajo.

sketchseven
28-06-2012, 10:35 AM
*snip*

Also - I think 0-0 for Rhylok's game might be the right decision, if they both made an effort to play (it sounds like Rhylok was available, but steam prevented the game getting started?)

Rhylok was available, then I had technical issues where Steam just refused to let me log in, we agreed to reschedule (the Steam fail was early last week), and then he was unavailable on the rescheduled day. I leave it in the hands of the admins, whichever you think is best.

ChainsawHands
28-06-2012, 10:44 AM
Wasn't really expecting a throwaway comment about fouling to have sparked quite this much of a discussion.It happens every time.

Every. Time.

MrJoose
28-06-2012, 10:45 AM
Two things:

1) I'm on holiday at the moment, and will be back on the 9th. As long as that makes me ok for the actual playing of games I'll give Dog Pants my bble password and such and he has agreed to get me all applied and everything.

2) I'm retiring the ogres. My last game felt like Nuffle was making more decisions about my game than I was. The big fellas spent most of the game picking their noses, and the little guys did what snotlings do best: fall over. As of next season I plan to pilot some dwarves called Urist to glory!

ChainsawHands
28-06-2012, 10:45 AM
In truth they have better survival rates on the ground, but that is another topic altogether.... stupid foul nerf. Wrestle witches win games. There is a section of BB coaches who rather forget that you get skills on players to make your team more effective. So often you see coaches get great rolls, put together a superstar, and then spend all their time trying to protect the player. Let her win games, let her burn bright and accept the downside that produces balance. It only takes one game to level a new one :)These words should be carved in giant flaming letters on the metaphorical entrance to the DoD.

Kapouille
28-06-2012, 10:46 AM
It happens every time.

Every. Time.

I was thinking to get Sneaky Git to some of my Halflings. Do you guys think it's a good idea?

/me fetches the popcorn.

Screwie
28-06-2012, 10:47 AM
It happens every time.

Every. Time.

Say guys.... how about them Minotaurs, huh?

*ducks*

Kapouille
28-06-2012, 10:50 AM
Also, what's the best team?

LowKey
28-06-2012, 11:01 AM
Say guys.... how about them Minotaurs, huh?

*ducks*

So i was thinking of giving my minotaur tentacles...

Screwie
28-06-2012, 11:05 AM
Wrestle witches win games. There is a section of BB coaches who rather forget that you get skills on players to make your team more effective. So often you see coaches get great rolls, put together a superstar, and then spend all their time trying to protect the player. Let her win games, let her burn bright and accept the downside that produces balance. It only takes one game to level a new one :)

One game if you're lucky. Witch elves seem cursed by their own reputation. Mine is 4-5 games old and only has 3 SPP, because she is never in the right place at the right time. Usually because the opposing team are trying very hard to make sure she doesn't go anywhere.

My plan for my witch elf (and maybe the second one, if I ever buy her) is a winger and crowdsurfing monster, for which I think Block is more useful for than Wrestle. Jump Up has synergy with many awesome skills but I would rather she stay standing (with Side Step and Tackle eventually) than be pushed to the ground on the first block she takes, leaving an opening on the flank for the ball or a gang foul.

I overstated my opposition to Wrestle witch elves earlier and I take that back. I have used them in the past and may do again, but right now I've no plans for it in my current team.

President Weasel
28-06-2012, 11:07 AM
I can't remember who it was who told me to sack my minotaur (so I am going to randomly say it was Laneford) but initially I pooh-poohed the suggestion. "They're only good between about 6 and 18 games into the team's career"? "they're a TV bloat and a turnover generator"? Nonsense! Sack a high-movement blitzing casualty machine whose big guy drawback just makes you want to blitz with him more? Crazy talk!
Then I discovered that a minotaur is a TV-bloating turnover generator who will let you down at the worst moments, waste your blitzes with wild animal, and loner the reroll. There was one memorable match in particular where the mino was directly responsible for three TDs for the opponents. So I sacked it.

Alistair Hutton
28-06-2012, 11:10 AM
I can't remember who it was who told me to sack my minotaur (so I am going to randomly say it was Laneford) but initially I pooh-poohed the suggestion. "They're only good between about 6 and 18 games into the team's career"? "they're a TV bloat and a turnover generator"? Nonsense! Sack a high-movement blitzing casualty machine whose big guy drawback just makes you want to blitz with him more? Crazy talk!
Then I discovered that a minotaur is a TV-bloating turnover generator who will let you down at the worst moments, waste your blitzes with wild animal, and loner the reroll. There was one memorable match in particular where the mino was directly responsible for three TDs for the opponents. So I sacked it.

Nooooo, that was my awesome skill an ability and not the fact that your Mino failed three Wild Animal rolls on the blitz in a row followed by falling over on a GFI on a single drive.

20phoenix
28-06-2012, 12:01 PM
I can't remember who it was who told me to sack my minotaur (so I am going to randomly say it was Laneford) but initially I pooh-poohed the suggestion. "They're only good between about 6 and 18 games into the team's career"? "they're a TV bloat and a turnover generator"? Nonsense! Sack a high-movement blitzing casualty machine whose big guy drawback just makes you want to blitz with him more? Crazy talk!
Then I discovered that a minotaur is a TV-bloating turnover generator who will let you down at the worst moments, waste your blitzes with wild animal, and loner the reroll. There was one memorable match in particular where the mino was directly responsible for three TDs for the opponents. So I sacked it.

You say that but you know where my hard earned cash is going in a few games time? A rat ogre. Embrace the madness. And secure your computer to the floor so it doesnt end up flying out the window.

Gorm
28-06-2012, 12:12 PM
Yea i'm going to pick up a rat ogre when my drain from buying new linerats allows me to.

Heliocentric
28-06-2012, 12:28 PM
I was thinking to get Sneaky Git to some of my Halflings. Do you guys think it's a good idea?

/me fetches the popcorn.Just remember they will be targeted mercilessly.


Say guys.... how about them Minotaurs, huh?

I can take them or leave them TBH, wild animal is probably one of the least distressing negas but, its still... Oh, you 2 were trying to incite an arguement?

Also, what's the best team?

Halfling are probably the best team if you are 600TV down... and *oh boy* are they often 600 tv town.


So i was thinking of giving my minotaur tentacles...You guys dont get how to do this at all do you?
Tentacles is perfectly legitimate on a mino, double it up with shadowing and then you are talking genuine bastardry.

Also for some high grade bastardry I suggest a bombardier with Hail Mary Pass(its a double but its the only skill he needs to be exceptional), I was testing it out in single player, you use it like you would do any mortar, you choose a general area clear of friendlies and drop death into it, you might miss 3 times out of 4, but its very safe.


when my drain from buying new linerats allows me to.

Haha, you made a funny (see, this is bastardry secret text finding person)

LowKey
28-06-2012, 12:57 PM
Iwasmakingathrowawaycommentthatledtoalongdiscussio ninthisthreadprevi... ah forget it

ntw
28-06-2012, 01:09 PM
Seriously surprised by that result, ntw. Well done.

Well done to Kajo.

You and me both matey, I can assure you of that...

And yeah - Gtz to Kajo.

Also - I *did* "invest" in a RatOgre 2 matches ago, in his first game he was a complete waste of space but last night he played like a hero.

ntw
28-06-2012, 01:11 PM
So i was thinking of giving my minotaur tentacles...

I misread that as -

So i was thinking of giving my minotaur testicles...

mrpier
28-06-2012, 01:31 PM
I also have a rat ogre on my team, most of the time he's better left alone where he is, preferably with a couple of victims beside him, but that really is optional.

President Weasel
28-06-2012, 01:35 PM
Rat Ogres and Minotaurs are very similar players and yet wildly different. It's all about the context: one of them is on a team with full access to Strength skills, decent to good armour throughout, and a handful of Str4 players. The other very much isn't. A single str-up on a chaos warrior will get you a reliable minotaur with better armour, who doesn't have to roll doubles to get block and who comes with 3Ag out of the box so can carry the ball if you feel like it.

Squiz
28-06-2012, 01:36 PM
Just remember they will be targeted mercilessly.They are Halflings. They don't care. Also: Positional play lets you keep some guys secure.


Then I discovered that a minotaur is a TV-bloating turnover generator who will let you down at the worst moments, waste your blitzes with wild animal, and loner the reroll. There was one memorable match in particular where the mino was directly responsible for three TDs for the opponents. So I sacked it.I see it this way: The risk of loosing your Blitz action on the turn you really need it (meaning the turn you can't Blitz with any other player on the team, St4 all over the board is quite ok) makes it really really hard to justify developing a Minotaur in that direction.

However, having a St5 tentacle guy as a roadblock that doesn't loose his tackle zones through his nega-trait is quite something. The guy can still block, after all. You just shouldn't rely on it.

Zoraster
28-06-2012, 01:49 PM
My plan for my witch elf (and maybe the second one, if I ever buy her) is a winger and crowdsurfing monster, for which I think Block is more useful for than Wrestle. Jump Up has synergy with many awesome skills but I would rather she stay standing (with Side Step and Tackle eventually) than be pushed to the ground on the first block she takes, leaving an opening on the flank for the ball or a gang foul.

Without getting into a wider tactical discussion it isn’t a bad thing to leave space for the ball down the flank if you want a demon surfer WE. When coaching them I play two defences almost exclusively; an asymmetrical set up leaving one flank totally open or a strong centre with just one player holding each flank. Life is much easier when the opposing coach does what you want rather than force you to react to him.

Why do you feel Block is better for this role? Wrestle would always be my skill of choice if I was building her with this role in mind. You ideally want Juggs on a double which has great synergy with Wrestle and Strip Ball. With Block Juggs becomes a bit meh on a team with no strength access.

1 in 9 times you’ll roll some combination of skulls/both downs and not get to Frenzy. With Block you’ll be left with the choice of dodging out or giving up a free hit. Either way you let them off the hook. The Wrestle Witch puts the opponent on the floor, probably marked up by an assister on the block. If he just stands up you can jump up and surf next turn so you win. If he blitzes off the marker you’ve controlled how he uses his most valuable tool that turn so you win. If he dodges out he risks a turnover, may burn a reroll and as he lost three MV standing up and probably had to dodge away from his destination to get into the open he’ll be out of position for a further turn or may well attempt a GFI or two. Opponent rolling more D6 is always a win. If he fouls you he is far more likely to lose a player than you (stupid foul nerf).

Heliocentric
28-06-2012, 02:06 PM
They are Halflings. They don't care.

Oh, yeah, its just if you ever get +AG on a fling you might want to use a sneaky git to draw fire... I was talking about getting targeted as a pro.

groovychainsaw
28-06-2012, 02:14 PM
Ok chaps, here begins the long march to new divisional structures. How exciting!

Season ended yesterday, with only 2 games outstanding, Phill and Al Hutton in B, and Walrus and Eard in 7. Currently standing as a 0-0 in the walrus/eard game (no posts in the groups from either) and a 2-0 to Al Hutton as I can't see a post from Phill.

Now that's out of the way, I've started doing the promotions/demotions as usual, converting them into which tier pool you fall into. Once each pool is full, we'll have the 'live steamchat draw!' (time to be announced) to tell you where you are going*. I still need to finish up the defaults etc. and assign everyone a division before this, so this might happen tonight, but its more likely to happen over the weekend. IF YOU ARE CHANGING, MAKE SURE YOU HAVE MARKED YOURSELF AS REBOOTING OR LEAVING ON THE SHEET!. It really helps :-). Plus, if someone has spotted a post from someone saying they're leaving that I've missed, feel free to mark someone else up as Z. Don't abuse this (obviously), but it should be everyone's responsibility to make sure they're marked up correctly before the pools are created (so, check noone's Z'ded you out).


* The draw will be seeded (ish) so you will not be able to play more than 1 person again from the previous season. How this will work is if a second person who you played against the previous season is drawn, it will be returned to the 'hat' and another draw will be made. Simple, huh?

Screwie
28-06-2012, 02:15 PM
Thanks for the advice Zoraster, it's food for thought.

To be brief, my choice of Block over Wrestle is because I would count on her remaining standing and still providing an obstacle and tackle zone until her next turn.

Zoraster
28-06-2012, 02:34 PM
That is what your AV8 players are for unless things are going horribly wrong :) Also don't underestimate the value of prone players as obstacles: they are uniquely immovable without committing the numbers to a foul or chain push. It is something to keep in mind when selecting which square to hit from with a Wrestler. A prone Witch coupled with her standard Blodge SSing support Blitzer can shut down an entire flank in ideal circumstances. Obviously that is rare, but you also have 9 other players so...

Screwie
28-06-2012, 02:44 PM
Cheers for your very convincing advice. Time to look over my skill plans again tonight, I guess. :)

I already have the prereq Blodge SS blitzer at least :D

cyberpunkdreams
28-06-2012, 02:57 PM
Also for some high grade bastardry I suggest a bombardier with Hail Mary Pass(its a double but its the only skill he needs to be exceptional), I was testing it out in single player, you use it like you would do any mortar, you choose a general area clear of friendlies and drop death into it, you might miss 3 times out of 4, but its very safe.

I've also tried this in single player. It's pure craziness and very fun ;).

Kapouille
28-06-2012, 03:02 PM
Just remember they will be targeted mercilessly.

As opposed to...? ;)
Edit: And will take some heat off the treemen who would actually do damage, what's not to like.

Walrus
28-06-2012, 03:07 PM
Sorry about not making the deadline on the game. But I had a pretty hectic week.

Kapouille
28-06-2012, 03:18 PM
I was talking about getting targeted as a pro.

So we agree ;)

smaug81
28-06-2012, 04:28 PM
Rat Ogres and Minotaurs are very similar players and yet wildly different. It's all about the context: one of them is on a team with full access to Strength skills, decent to good armour throughout, and a handful of Str4 players. The other very much isn't. A single str-up on a chaos warrior will get you a reliable minotaur with better armour, who doesn't have to roll doubles to get block and who comes with 3Ag out of the box so can carry the ball if you feel like it.

QFT.

Incidentally, I found much of what goes for Minotaurs to hold true for Yhetee as well. They look like they might be a better option on paper, since Norse aren't as high strength across the board, and having one more player with decent armor is always helpful. The built in Claws should also help in theory with cutting through more heavily armored opponents.

In practice, though, I felt like my team dropped in effectiveness the moment I hired one. He was inevitably left behind by the course of play, standing off to the side somewhere with a lineman tying him down. The lack of Block and the possibility of failing WA and losing my blitz made me hesitant to take the actions necessary to keep him where he was useful. This was only exacerbated by the fact that I'd far rather be blitzing with my Berserkers or Ulfwereners, who were generally more likely to actually get a knockdown and cause some damage.

cyberpunkdreams
28-06-2012, 04:37 PM
In practice, though, I felt like my team dropped in effectiveness the moment I hired one. He was inevitably left behind by the course of play, standing off to the side somewhere with a lineman tying him down. The lack of Block and the possibility of failing WA and losing my blitz made me hesitant to take the actions necessary to keep him where he was useful. This was only exacerbated by the fact that I'd far rather be blitzing with my Berserkers or Ulfwereners, who were generally more likely to actually get a knockdown and cause some damage.

It's always a hazard with frenzying big guys that they'll get pulled way out of position. The lack of agility means you really have to keep throwing the blocks. If that's tying up your opponent's big guy or another key player, then fair enough, but you have to be really careful that it doesn't happen just with a lino or something.

I think a key thing to remember with all big guys, especially if they've got scary killing skills, is that even if they don't appear to do much during a match, they can deeply affect your opponent's game plan just by being there. As during WWII, Turpitz didn't sail into combat once, ever, but just the fact she was hanging out around Norway meant that the Allies had to expend a lot of effort protecting convoys, just in case. It's the same with your big guy... kinda sorta maybe-ish.

JayTee
28-06-2012, 04:37 PM
Season ended yesterday, with only 2 games outstanding, Phill and Al Hutton in B, and Walrus and Eard in 7. Currently standing as a 0-0 in the walrus/eard game (no posts in the groups from either) and a 2-0 to Al Hutton as I can't see a post from Phill.My match with Wolfenswan needs to be defaulted to a draw in Division 2, it's still showing up as unplayed in-game thanks to the genius brilliance of Cyanide netcode.

sketchseven
28-06-2012, 04:49 PM
It's always a hazard with frenzying big guys that they'll get pulled way out of position.

This happened to me in my second game of the season, Norse against Chaos - the only strong chance I had of cracking his defensive wall, my Ulfwerener, frenzied right through the line which just closed up behind him, leaving him isolated and useless and the rest of my team trying to get in position to throw 2D blocks and mostly only being able to make 1D blocks against Warriors.

I remain unconvinced by Yhetis or Minotaurs - I think the appeal of a big hurty thing in the middle of the pitch can be pretty strong but they just end up hanging out on the LOS as the play flows around them. Inevitably, a Bonehead or Wild Animal roll will fail at precisely the most inconvenient time.

ntw
28-06-2012, 04:55 PM
Ok chaps, here begins the long march to new divisional structures. How exciting!

Season ended yesterday, with only 2 games outstanding, Phill and Al Hutton in B, and Walrus and Eard in 7. Currently standing as a 0-0 in the walrus/eard game (no posts in the groups from either) and a 2-0 to Al Hutton as I can't see a post from Phill.

Now that's out of the way, I've started doing the promotions/demotions as usual, converting them into which tier pool you fall into. Once each pool is full, we'll have the 'live steamchat draw!' (time to be announced) to tell you where you are going*. I still need to finish up the defaults etc. and assign everyone a division before this, so this might happen tonight, but its more likely to happen over the weekend. IF YOU ARE CHANGING, MAKE SURE YOU HAVE MARKED YOURSELF AS REBOOTING OR LEAVING ON THE SHEET!. It really helps :-). Plus, if someone has spotted a post from someone saying they're leaving that I've missed, feel free to mark someone else up as Z. Don't abuse this (obviously), but it should be everyone's responsibility to make sure they're marked up correctly before the pools are created (so, check noone's Z'ded you out).


* The draw will be seeded (ish) so you will not be able to play more than 1 person again from the previous season. How this will work is if a second person who you played against the previous season is drawn, it will be returned to the 'hat' and another draw will be made. Simple, huh?

I've taken a copy of the current sheet (for archive purposes) and will finish off converting the sheets to the new format over the next few days.

groovychainsaw
28-06-2012, 05:00 PM
I think the 'deterrent' value is high, as cyberpunk says. They're not (that) easy to knock down, and whilst they can be tied up with one player, they still exert a tackle zone across 3 squares. My usual plan for my human ogre is 'don't move, stay still, hit someone (as the last option in a turn) if they come close and have checked there's no gap if you do fall over'. This works well when he has stand firm and guard. 'Course, because I'm slightly mad, he has break tackle as well, just in case I'm faced with a str4+ ball carrier and can blitz. This doesn't happen so often now that I have my str5 blitzer :-).

Likewise, with a claw/mighty blow yhetee, he's an even bigger deterrent, particularly to bashy teams who will hate those claws. They can mark him with a lineman, but they're giving you a free AV6 effective hit that's not likely to trigger wild animal - that lineman might not last very long, and you don't lose the tackle zones even on a wild animal roll. So there's no downside to using him as a roadblock. If no-one's next to him, don't move (unless you want to - you don't lose the tackle zones either way). If there is, punch them. The biggest issue with my old yhetee was his AV8 causing him to get killed shortly after gaining mighty blow (and my norse had other issues - lets not go there, eh?).

El Cubo
28-06-2012, 05:05 PM
Incidentally, I found much of what goes for Minotaurs to hold true for Yhetee as well. They look like they might be a better option on paper, since Norse aren't as high strength across the board, and having one more player with decent armor is always helpful. The built in Claws should also help in theory with cutting through more heavily armored opponents.

In practice, though, I felt like my team dropped in effectiveness the moment I hired one.

That's my experience so far, as well. I'm hoping that once he gets a couple of skills, he'll be more of an asset. Although I have to mention that the current division has been on with only low av teams.


I think a key thing to remember with all big guys, especially if they've got scary killing skills, is that even if they don't appear to do much during a match, they can deeply affect your opponent's game plan just by being there.

This is true, too. On one occasion an opponent was so intimidated by my str6 rat ogre Big Pussy that he didn't dare to tie him up with a player and left him free to do an important blitz.

Screwie
28-06-2012, 05:06 PM
Admittedly I am an unapologetic blitzing Chaos minotaur user, but one thing I very much like about them compared to other mutating big guys (including other teams' minotaurs!) is they don't have to roll a double to pick up a Mutation. That is huge for a big guy, and worth exploiting.

The Underworld troll is the same. Can't wait to use that side.

Alistair Hutton
28-06-2012, 05:24 PM
I think the 'deterrent' value is high, as cyberpunk says. They're not (that) easy to knock down, and whilst they can be tied up with one player, they still exert a tackle zone across 3 squares. My usual plan for my human ogre is 'don't move, stay still, hit someone (as the last option in a turn) if they come close and have checked there's no gap if you do fall over'. This works well when he has stand firm and guard. 'Course, because I'm slightly mad, he has break tackle as well, just in case I'm faced with a str4+ ball carrier and can blitz. This doesn't happen so often now that I have my str5 blitzer :-).

Human Ogres are great for touchbacks. Hand him the ball, blitz straight down the middle and then watch as the opposition crowd round him. Then you hand off to a catcher at the back of your cage and yell "So long suckers".

Everblue
28-06-2012, 06:13 PM
Admittedly I am an unapologetic blitzing Chaos minotaur user, but one thing I very much like about them compared to other mutating big guys (including other teams' minotaurs!) is they don't have to roll a double to pick up a Mutation. That is huge for a big guy, and worth exploiting.

The chaos minotaur is just made for blitzing - frenzy and horns out of the box, with the ability to take juggernaut on a normal roll and no block skill (which is a waste if you are getting Jugg).

The Yhetee is almost as good, although lacking horns.

The Rat Ogre is a bit of a weird hybrid though, and I would actually rather the Rat Ogre didn't have frenzy and was a bit cheaper, since frenzy doesn't really fit with their roadblock role in the team.

Squiz
28-06-2012, 06:20 PM
The chaos minotaur is just made for blitzing - frenzy and horns out of the box, with the ability to take juggernaut on a normal roll and no block skill (which is a waste if you are getting Jugg).

The Yhetee is almost as good, although lacking horns.

The Rat Ogre is a bit of a weird hybrid though, and I would actually rather the Rat Ogre didn't have frenzy and was a bit cheaper, since frenzy doesn't really fit with their roadblock role in the team.The Snowtroll also lacks Mighty Blow. And blitzing Minotaurs are a trap.

El Cubo
28-06-2012, 06:38 PM
The Rat Ogre is a bit of a weird hybrid though, and I would actually rather the Rat Ogre didn't have frenzy and was a bit cheaper, since frenzy doesn't really fit with their roadblock role in the team.

Rat ogre is perfectly fine bulldozer for the skavens. He punches holes in the defense for the runners to run through.

Alistair Hutton
28-06-2012, 08:55 PM
EXTRA EXTRA READ ALL ABOUT IT!

Scandal rocked the world of Blood Bowl with star thrower Dietmar Frej no longer employed by the Altdorf Army. Reports are conflicting as to whether he walked or he was pushed. We will have more on this as the story develops.

Kapouille
28-06-2012, 09:49 PM
EXTRA EXTRA READ ALL ABOUT IT!

Scandal rocked the world of Blood Bowl with star thrower Dietmar Frej no longer employed by the Altdorf Army. Reports are conflicting as to whether he walked or he was pushed. We will have more on this as the story develops.

If you're done with him... Can I have him?

sketchseven
29-06-2012, 12:12 AM
Uh - has my Div H game not been adminned yet? Result is still showing as ?-? in the League in BBLE. Sorry to keep banging on about it.

Looking forward to the new div structure for next season, should make things interesting.

smaug81
29-06-2012, 01:06 AM
I think the 'deterrent' value is high, as cyberpunk says. They're not (that) easy to knock down, and whilst they can be tied up with one player, they still exert a tackle zone across 3 squares. My usual plan for my human ogre is 'don't move, stay still, hit someone (as the last option in a turn) if they come close and have checked there's no gap if you do fall over'. This works well when he has stand firm and guard. 'Course, because I'm slightly mad, he has break tackle as well, just in case I'm faced with a str4+ ball carrier and can blitz. This doesn't happen so often now that I have my str5 blitzer :-).

Likewise, with a claw/mighty blow yhetee, he's an even bigger deterrent, particularly to bashy teams who will hate those claws. They can mark him with a lineman, but they're giving you a free AV6 effective hit that's not likely to trigger wild animal - that lineman might not last very long, and you don't lose the tackle zones even on a wild animal roll. So there's no downside to using him as a roadblock. If no-one's next to him, don't move (unless you want to - you don't lose the tackle zones either way). If there is, punch them. The biggest issue with my old yhetee was his AV8 causing him to get killed shortly after gaining mighty blow (and my norse had other issues - lets not go there, eh?).

All valid points, but I feel like that sort of highlights the problem in some ways. Big Guys are generally fine if you primarily use them as a big immovable hunk of meat that just stands there and provides assists and TZs (you'll notice I have few complaints about my Beast of Nurgle so far), but the Yhetee and the Minotaur feel like they're designed for a more active role than that. Unfortunately, their inherent drawbacks make it risky to use them in a more active capacity. And if you don't actually block with them, you're not really getting the benefit of the skills they come with, nor are you getting the SPPs needed to get them the passive skills that make them work (which, admittedly, can be said to some extent of all Big Guys). My opinion may well be colored to some extent by the fact that I didn't get my Yhetee until fairly late in my team's career, by which point I was already fairly high in the divisions, so he never had much of a chance to develop. Nevertheless, I still feel like he's a bit harder to justify than some of the more passive Big Guys like the Ogre or the Beast.

cyberpunkdreams
29-06-2012, 01:42 AM
And if you don't actually block with them, you're not really getting the benefit of the skills they come with, nor are you getting the SPPs needed to get them the passive skills that make them work (which, admittedly, can be said to some extent of all Big Guys).

This is true, but the only real risk with them is blitzing, not blocking. If you can keep them in a scrum and keep pushing guys into their TZs, then all's fine and dandy... it's not going to work out that way in every match, but then nothing works out perfectly in every match.

I think the only real question is whether you want them in your line up vs another potentially useful player, and that's really just down to your own personal playbook.

somanyrobots
29-06-2012, 07:14 AM
Uh - has my Div H game not been adminned yet? Result is still showing as ?-? in the League in BBLE. Sorry to keep banging on about it.

Same boat as sketchseven, down in Div E for my game against 2lab. No rush, but it'd be nice to get things squared away. (This is the first game I've had defaulted; IIRC Cyanide throws some SPPs around at random? I am eager to see if any of them stick to my almost-leveled flesh golem).

Kapouille
29-06-2012, 08:18 AM
Crap, someone added Loner to treemen in the Halfling teams :( As if life wasn't difficult enough.

Edit : In the living rulebook.

Heliocentric
29-06-2012, 08:26 AM
Crap, someone added Loner to treemen in the Halfling teams :( As if life wasn't difficult enough.

Edit : In the living rulebook.That's older not newer, or was it put back?

Alistair Hutton
29-06-2012, 08:40 AM
EXTRA EXTRA READ ALL ABOUT IT!

Scandal rocked the world of Blood Bowl with star thrower Dietmar Frej no longer employed by the Altdorf Army. Reports are conflicting as to whether he walked or he was pushed. We will have more on this as the story develops.

Sources close to Dietmar have revealed that he's be unhappy with how he is being used by the Army, often feeling marginalised by the newer thrower on the team. "Sure the new boy can toss a ball through goblin's anus from 30 yards" says Grimsmack Snotsmasher, Dietmar's agent, "but does he have the all round play of Dietmar? My boy can block with the best of them, put the ball anywhere on the field you want and he's so cool under pressure he needs to be checked for hypothermia". Sources within the Army camp paint a picture of a coach struggling to find a clear role of Frej and unhappy with how Frej has been focusing his training.

Rumour has it that the Army are scouting a 4th Catcher to add to their ranks with the money free'd up from Dietmar Frej's departure and that another player, possibly a Lineman, could be cut to make way for him.

Zoraster
29-06-2012, 08:45 AM
That's older not newer, or was it put back?

Yup, Kapo was clearly looking at a pre-CRP ruleset. Wish they would put it back though. The impact of no Loner, the Stunty injury change and the addition of Willow, Zara and Bertha has combined to make 'flings way too good. When played seriously they are easily a lower-end tier 1 team now which takes most of the fun of playing them away.

ntw
29-06-2012, 08:47 AM
We'll check up on the outstanding match results ASAP.

drawlien
29-06-2012, 08:52 AM
Just a quick question to Groovy/ntw: How soon is the new season likely to kick off? I'm going to be away for a week from today so the earliest I'll be able to sign up will be Friday the 6th of July. I think I managed to avoid relegation/promotion so it might be simplest and quickest to leave ny team in Div A for next season...

Kapouille
29-06-2012, 09:03 AM
Yup, Kapo was clearly looking at a pre-CRP ruleset. Wish they would put it back though. The impact of no Loner, the Stunty injury change and the addition of Willow, Zara and Bertha has combined to make 'flings way too good. When played seriously they are easily a lower-end tier 1 team now which takes most of the fun of playing them away.

So, that's old, there? http://www.bloodbowlonline.com/LivingRulebook5.pdf

Where's the new-new?

Also, define "easily" ;) Nothing is ever easy as Hal.

Edit: Think I found it : http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m750496a_BB_Competition_Rules_Pack.pdf

Edit2: Aaaah, that's better. Shame I don't get access to those decent stars.

El Cubo
29-06-2012, 09:07 AM
So, that's old, there? http://www.bloodbowlonline.com/LivingRulebook5.pdf

Edit: Think I found it : http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m750496a_BB_Competition_Rules_Pack.pdf

You found it. LRB6 was named CRP.

Kapouille
29-06-2012, 09:08 AM
You found it. LRB6 was named CRP.

I guess i'll need to have a read through it now.

El Cubo
29-06-2012, 09:15 AM
I guess i'll need to have a read through it now.

There's this LRB5 with some experimental rules, which has the experimental rules printed in red. I think the CRP has all of these changes plus a few extra, so maybe that'll help a little.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/19069305/LRB-5-Plus-Experimental-2008

e: Oh, something even better: A list of changes (http://spew.bloodbowlleague.com/?p=cp&cpid=7)

ntw
29-06-2012, 09:22 AM
The sheet should be functional now, it'll need neatening up when I get a chance though...

Everblue
29-06-2012, 09:30 AM
This is true, but the only real risk with them is blitzing, not blocking. If you can keep them in a scrum and keep pushing guys into their TZs, then all's fine and dandy... it's not going to work out that way in every match, but then nothing works out perfectly in every match.

True! It's just that Yhetees and Minotaurs are less useful in the scrum because of their low armour and capacity to be pulled out of position via frenzy.

The best big guy I think is the Troll - dirt cheap, you don't pay for anything you don't need, and you can just park him in the middle of the pitch and hinge your drive around him.

mrpier
29-06-2012, 09:52 AM
I think the Kroxigor is the best big guy, bonehead is arguably the least disruptive big guy nega trait, it's better than the human ogre which comes at the same price for some reason, he's the fastest big guy with the rat ogre so he can keep up with the rest of the team and with break tackle as first skill he becomes really annoying.

Screwie
29-06-2012, 09:54 AM
I think price does come into it.

The troll is a bargain for its 110k cost, but the rat-ogre seems a bit overpriced at the same price as the minotaur to me. Okay, so the minotaur is also expensive at 150k, but I know with him I'm getting skills that work well in synergy and a big guy who I can give Mutations to without costing him Block/Pro/+ST.

The krox is basically like a troll but better, and without the TTM tactics. But you are paying extra for the improvement.


Crap, someone added Loner to treemen in the Halfling teams :( As if life wasn't difficult enough.

Edit : In the living rulebook.

As others have mentioned that's how the Halflings used to be and it was horrible.

Interestingly (well, I find it interesting), the collected testing data for LRB5/LRB6 (http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/LRB6Stats.htm) shows that the Loner change jumped the team from below Tier 3 expectations (~19% win rate) to arguably the best performing Tier 3 team (~37%).

Heliocentric
29-06-2012, 09:56 AM
It's the horns, they addict to the idea of a 1 assist triple roll. But they are not to be trusted, treat them like a beast of Nurgle that's better.

Tentacles, stand firm, mighty blow,guard
Doubles:
Block, Dodge, shadowing, pro,

Screwie
29-06-2012, 10:08 AM
This is why our group's minotaur debates always break down. There are two schools of thought for the minotaur:
The safer big guy obstacle typically with Block, Tents and Stand Firm (and Claw).
The riskier blitz monster typically with Pro (or Block) and Juggernaut (and Claw).
And people won't budge either way. :)

Kapouille
29-06-2012, 10:29 AM
As others have mentioned that's how the Halflings used to be and it was horrible.

Interestingly (well, I find it interesting), the collected testing data for LRB5/LRB6 (http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/LRB6Stats.htm) shows that the Loner change jumped the team from below Tier 3 expectations (~19% win rate) to arguably the best performing Tier 3 team (~37%).

Yes, I can see it was the worst by far. And now it's pretty much aligned with the rest... of the bottom. Which is good enough for me :)

Kapouille
29-06-2012, 10:35 AM
the collected testing data for LRB5/LRB6 (http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/LRB6Stats.htm)

Now, looking at the top of this table, I can see why some players were so eager to reboot with a Necro team ;)