Endless Space

[Raaritsgozilla]

I'm considering buying this for an early present to myself. What do people have to say about it? I have asked at some other places I frequent, and most reviews are good. It seems that this will be what I wanted X3 to be, almost a prettier and slightly easier Aurora.

Some more reviews before I decide please

[jnx]

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?5147-Endless-space-has-gone-Beta

This and X3 have absolutely nothing in common. Well, except space. You must be very misinformed of one or the other.

[soldant]

Well, one of them is a 4X game with a slick interface though slightly oversimplified combat... while the other is an Elite-style game that sports an interface featured in the original which is needlessly difficult to grapple with and makes even the simplest task challenging.

No but seriously if you've quoted Aurora you probably have some idea what Endless Space is but like Jnx I see no connection to X3, there's no flying around in ships trying to figure out how to use an overly complicated interface. That said it's not particularly deep in terms of mechanics; there's no real-time tactical combat for example, nor is there endless customisation of absolutely everything. It's very much focused on empire management, sort of like MOO2 except with simplified combat turned on.

[Velko]

I'm considering buying this for an early present to myself. What do people have to say about it? I have asked at some other places I frequent, and most reviews are good. It seems that this will be what I wanted X3 to be, almost a prettier and slightly easier Aurora.

Some more reviews before I decide please

No this isn't X3, this is 4X...

Anyhoo I like it a lot (but you knew that already, didn't you? needed another opinion? my opinion isn't enough for you? :hitler:)

[Raaritsgozilla]

Velko I believe anything you say. I just need external pressure and reassurance.

[Drinking with Skeletons]

My biggest complaint about Endless Space is the wonky diplomacy. This is mostly a problem because one of the races, the Amoeba, are almost completely dependent upon it in order to get their bonuses.

Past that, I've never been clear on what distinguishes racially unique techs from their standard counterparts.

I could probably nitpick it more, but it is, to me, still the best space-based 4X since Master of Orion 2. Highly recommended.

[WestermannsLeksikon]

Just wanted to bump this as the game is now out - I'd love an excuse to buy it (in the form of rave reviews here)! If you're playing it, I'd like to know what your experience is like - are you playing for long stretches, like a Civ? Is it something you could do while you listen to a podcast (eg)? Is it... is it awesome?

[jnx]

I'm pretty sure there's been enough discussion of this here already. Go look the thread I linked in my first post and I'm sure you'll make your decision.

[FriendlyFire]

I've personally only played a single game over the course of the weekend and I'm no Civ expert, so take my feedback with a grain of salt.

Generally, the game feels good, but it's rather slow to get going. There are some slightly odd decisions, the biggest of which is probably "expansion disapproval", which is basically a malus that accumulates as you get more systems. It's in many ways counterintuitive and annoying since it tanks your entire approval rating (which modulates every other production stats) and I've not found good ways of countering it (there are techs to diminish its effect, but they're expensive as hell).

The ship designer is more simple than SOTS or Gal Civ's, but the ships are much prettier and sleeker. Combat is very much just a pretty face on top of dice rolls, but the "card" system is actually fairly interesting and lets you give general guidelines to your fleet for each of three "phases" of combat. I sometimes felt that combat was confusing, since you didn't always see ships blow up (so you need to keep track of how many ships you/the enemy has by looking at the counters), but it's very pretty and cinematic and looking at your huge fleet wipe out the enemy's is just awesome. Dealing the good card and countering the enemy's choice also feels incredibly satisfying.

The science stuff is nicely designed. There's a clear tech tree with nice tooltips and queuing. Unlocked techs are clearly listed for each new research.

The races are genuinely interesting. I've personally only tried the Sophons, but some of the others are fun. You do have your generic human factions, but then you also have the diplomacy-heavy Amoeba, the destructive Cravers who consume systems one after the other (and can never be at peace!), the AI Sowers whose only goal is to terraform worlds for the Endless, and last but not least Horatio, a faction founded by a deranged trillionaire who wants to colonize the entire universe with his clones.

However, the highlight has to be the UI. It's ridiculously sleek, simple, and plain gorgeous. It's honestly probably the best UI I've seen for a 4X game. It's miles (miles!) beyond SOTS's clunky, ugly interface, and I'd say it's even better than Civ's. Everything can be done with the mouse if you wish, there are a lot of nice little touches like easy to use queues, drag and drop, lots of tooltips, etc. It's going to make you long for good UIs in just about any game after that.

Overall, I think it's worth the admission fee, and mods should further make this game enjoyable (for example, by removing this expansion disapproval factor if you don't like it).

[DevinSmoth]

I would love to see this game add Steam Workshop... that would set them worlds above many of the other 4X options out there.

[cowthief skank]

However, the highlight has to be the UI. It's ridiculously sleek, simple, and plain gorgeous. It's honestly probably the best UI I've seen for a 4X game. It's miles (miles!) beyond SOTS's clunky, ugly interface, and I'd say it's even better than Civ's. Everything can be done with the mouse if you wish, there are a lot of nice little touches like easy to use queues, drag and drop, lots of tooltips, etc. It's going to make you long for good UIs in just about any game after that.


Best thing about the interface is the right-click back. No need to click back or exit, no need to press escape, it's all on the mouse.

Rest of your post is pretty spot on, though I would say from my experience that the combat is actually pretty strategic - it is all about designing and building the right ships. You have to consider defence against the various weapon types, which weapons your enemies have, which defences they have, so your Mega Cruiser may dick all over the Cravers' fleet, but against the Sophons it may stand little chance, which can encourage you to vary your fleet compositions. By the time you get into the battles themselves, they are already essentially decided by what you did on the strategic side. I found the cards to make very little difference, and if I am honest I felt they were the game's weakest feature.

The heroes are a nice touch though. You get a (small) handful of heroes available. Some of them boost planetary stats, some combat stats. All level up from experience, and can become quite handy in the late game.

[Ravelle]

I am 70 turns in and defended my system a couple of times but how do I explore and invade other systems?

[cowthief skank]

I am 70 turns in and defended my system a couple of times but how do I explore and invade other systems?

Explore: build scout ships, like the one you start with. Watch they don't get killed by pirates or other empires (if you stray into their territory).

Invade: build a big fleet and park it in an enemy system. Somewhere will be a button for you to begin the invasion. Wait til the invasion is complete and lord it over your new system. Some ships are better than others at invading, depending on which modules are installed on them in the design phase.

If by invade, you meant expand: build one or two colony ships (Procreators, I think they are called?) and move to a tasty-looking system. Colonise it with the button which appears. Make sure there are no pirates there, or your ship will die.

[Ravelle]

Explore: build scout ships, like the one you start with. Watch they don't get killed by pirates or other empires (if you stray into their territory).

Invade: build a big fleet and park it in an enemy system. Somewhere will be a button for you to begin the invasion. Wait til the invasion is complete and lord it over your new system. Some ships are better than others at invading, depending on which modules are installed on them in the design phase.

If by invade, you meant expand: build one or two colony ships (Procreators, I think they are called?) and move to a tasty-looking system. Colonise it with the button which appears. Make sure there are no pirates there, or your ship will die.

I didn't get to see any other systems at first butjust mine so I had nothing to select, then out of nowhere every system was visible. I'm not sure what I did.

I also noticed that the game has some nasty bug which gives me a nullreferenceexception error when I select a ship in the fleet management screen and then my game froze.
This happened only with the Hisho so far.

[FriendlyFire]

Best thing about the interface is the right-click back. No need to click back or exit, no need to press escape, it's all on the mouse.

Rest of your post is pretty spot on, though I would say from my experience that the combat is actually pretty strategic - it is all about designing and building the right ships. You have to consider defence against the various weapon types, which weapons your enemies have, which defences they have, so your Mega Cruiser may dick all over the Cravers' fleet, but against the Sophons it may stand little chance, which can encourage you to vary your fleet compositions. By the time you get into the battles themselves, they are already essentially decided by what you did on the strategic side. I found the cards to make very little difference, and if I am honest I felt they were the game's weakest feature.

The heroes are a nice touch though. You get a (small) handful of heroes available. Some of them boost planetary stats, some combat stats. All level up from experience, and can become quite handy in the late game.

Oh yes, I forgot to mention right click. Such a lovely little touch.

As for combat, as I said my experience is very partial. I've played one game thus far and only encountered minimal combat with pirates in it. The few times that I did, choosing the good card seemed to make a difference, though that might just have been happenstance. In any case, I guess it's a more active system than just throwing your ships at the enemy and praying for the best. Even if it doesn't have that much impact, it still feels like it does, keeping you involved into the action. I still wish combat were more fleshed out (I'd dream about SOTS-like realtime combat), but it's fine as it is and not as worrying as I thought it'd be before buying the game.

Heroes are a nice touch, but I feel they're too powerful and required. As it was, I really needed to have heroes in certain systems to keep them up and mainly invested in propaganda bonuses to keep approval high. Without them, many of my systems would go below 30% approval and start getting useless. I realize now that the game doesn't seem to want you to expand very fast (which is contrary to just about any other 4X I've played, hence my initial confusion), but even then, heroes seem a bit like a joker that can do ridiculous miracles (happiness going from 30% to 90%, for instance).

[Timofee]

As for combat, as I said my experience is very partial. I've played one game thus far and only encountered minimal combat with pirates in it. The few times that I did, choosing the good card seemed to make a difference, though that might just have been happenstance. In any case, I guess it's a more active system than just throwing your ships at the enemy and praying for the best. Even if it doesn't have that much impact, it still feels like it does, keeping you involved into the action. I still wish combat were more fleshed out (I'd dream about SOTS-like realtime combat), but it's fine as it is and not as worrying as I thought it'd be before buying the game.

Heroes are a nice touch, but I feel they're too powerful and required. As it was, I really needed to have heroes in certain systems to keep them up and mainly invested in propaganda bonuses to keep approval high. Without them, many of my systems would go below 30% approval and start getting useless. I realize now that the game doesn't seem to want you to expand very fast (which is contrary to just about any other 4X I've played, hence my initial confusion), but even then, heroes seem a bit like a joker that can do ridiculous miracles (happiness going from 30% to 90%, for instance).

I'm in two minds about the combat now. On the one hand I like its simplicity but on the other I feel that by fleshing it out, it would have the potential to liven up the end game which suffers from the tedious issue of: you know you've won but you need to keep ploughing on if you want to see the victory screen. (Also: get stuffed spell check, ploughing totally is a word)

As for Heroes I'm not sure whether you get less if you play smaller maps, for instance on Huge to start you can have 3 and as very quickly you'll be owning at least 20 or so systems I really appreciate how powerful they are. I guess if you get the same amount on small or tiny etc then they become materially stronger, perhaps tipping them to being over powerful.

I also really like some of the Hero dust cards - illusions is awesome when coming up against an enemy who you know is going to penetrate your defenses.

[Ravelle]

Can someone explain what is up with the movement of fleets? I can send a scout ship to a system, it shows a dotted line but it won't move my fleets to the destinations after that.

[mnemnoch]

Ships have different # of movements based on race and tech. There is a manual ship movement button at the left side of end of turn button. I remember in beta that there is a bug in which you cant move your ship no matter what you do. People said that opening and closing the steam overlay seems to fix this or worse case is to save your game and restart ES.

[Ravelle]

That manual thingy only shows up once in a blue moon, but what ever I do my ships won't move an inch, can't even defend my planets this way.

[duff]

Tapping shift works for me. I'm amazed this bug is in the release version.

[mnemnoch]

You cant move your ship ever since you remove them from the hangar? Maybe there's a wormhole blocking your way and you haven't research the tech that allows your ship to travel in it? Have you tried opening and closing the steam overlay or restarting ES? If you tried all of that then I'm at loss on why your ship wont move.. Never encountered a bug like that.

[FriendlyFire]

The movement button only shows up if you have queued up movement orders. If it doesn't appear, then you don't have any order queued up.

And the bug is that when you use the Steam overlay shortcut (Shift+Tab), the game receives the Shift down key event, but not the up key event, so it considers that Shift is pressed forever. I found that just pressing Shift again fixed this.

If you have Shift held up, then yeah, fleets won't move at all because you're not giving them an order to do so.

Also make sure you're not trying to go through a wormhole without having the tech researched (wormhole links are wavy, smoky lines as opposed to hard ones).

[soldant]

Regarding having the entire map visible: If you're playing as spaaaaaaaaace amoeba, they can see the map by default.

[vinraith]

I keep hearing things about the AI that have kept me away. Moving the launch date up 2 months is also usually a bad sign. I get the sense it could be a really great game down the road, but it strikes me as more than a little half-baked at the moment. That seems to be something of an epidemic with 4X games lately.

[Wrongshui]

I found this very dry, if that makes sense. It seems to do all the basics brilliantly but the whole experience just feels a bit empty. This games basics with Space Empires extra fluff would be my ideal 4x.

[soldant]

I keep hearing things about the AI that have kept me away. Moving the launch date up 2 months is also usually a bad sign. I get the sense it could be a really great game down the road, but it strikes me as more than a little half-baked at the moment. That seems to be something of an epidemic with 4X games lately.
The mechanics are sound. The AI... well, the only AI I've ever known to be worth much in a 4X game is GalCiv2, but that game comes with its own set of issues. The AI aren't exceptionally good but by all accounts they're not entirely retarded.

Most of the complaints I see are that there's not enough background or story for the various races, or that combat is too simplistic. But otherwise the general mechanics of the game is fine and complete, and has been for quite some time. It's not 'half baked' but I can see why some people think it's a bit sparse. It wasn't designed to be an answer to Sword of the Stars or a game with excessive micro.

[Dubbill]

Oh yes, I forgot to mention right click. Such a lovely little touch.
Totally. I went back to Civ after a few hours of Endless Space and kept trying to right-click my way out of menus.

[Ravelle]

The movement button only shows up if you have queued up movement orders. If it doesn't appear, then you don't have any order queued up.

And the bug is that when you use the Steam overlay shortcut (Shift+Tab), the game receives the Shift down key event, but not the up key event, so it considers that Shift is pressed forever. I found that just pressing Shift again fixed this.

If you have Shift held up, then yeah, fleets won't move at all because you're not giving them an order to do so.

Also make sure you're not trying to go through a wormhole without having the tech researched (wormhole links are wavy, smoky lines as opposed to hard ones).

That's it Believe, I was talking with a friend during my gameplay,

@Soldant. Aha, I made a deal with the Emoeba so they shared their thech with me.

[Wolfenswan]

So, RPS game of Endless Space with 8 players?

[vinraith]

The mechanics are sound. The AI... well, the only AI I've ever known to be worth much in a 4X game is GalCiv2, but that game comes with its own set of issues. The AI aren't exceptionally good but by all accounts they're not entirely retarded.

SotS and Distant Worlds are both solid on the AI front. From what I've read the AI in Endless Space can't build ships to counter yours (or even properly make use of all of the available equipment slots), can't handle the basics of colony economic upgrades, in short just can't play the game. If that's changed, I'd like to know about it.

Again, the whole thing looks promising, but I'll definitely wait and see if it's patched into something interesting. There are enough excellent 4X games out there right now that there's no rush.

[jnx]

From what I've read the AI in Endless Space can't build ships to counter yours (or even properly make use of all of the available equipment slots

Well already in beta the AI was countering my ship designs (at least to some extent) by adding defenses specific to my main weaponry.

[archonsod]

SotS and Distant Worlds are both solid on the AI front. From what I've read the AI in Endless Space can't build ships to counter yours (or even properly make use of all of the available equipment slots), can't handle the basics of colony economic upgrades, in short just can't play the game. If that's changed, I'd like to know about it.

It can certainly play. Only problem with it these days is that the diplomacy is a bit nonsensical. Apart from that I've not seen it have any real issues.

[soldant]

Well already in beta the AI was countering my ship designs (at least to some extent) by adding defenses specific to my main weaponry.
I've seen similar behaviour, otherwise it's just random luck?

Earlier on in the beta the AI would pretty much wreck their economy but I'm sure that was patched out before the final release landed. I haven't seen retarded decisions yet.

[vinraith]

I'm glad to hear it's doing better, so often devs talk about improving the AI but don't really do it.

[FriendlyFire]

It's absolutely nothing like Sins. Just read up the thread, there's all the info you need, but to summarize it's a slick turn-based 4X game with non-interactive card-based combat.

[soldant]

Looks quite a bit like Sins of a Solar Empire, which isn't a bad thing at all.

Is there any gameplay footage out there (which isn't really shwon in the trailer) How is the fleet combat, upgrading planets/buildings etc?

Looks very interesting.
As Wagokkomo said, it's not SoaSE. It's entirely turn based, there's no RTS element at all. Really, Sins isn't much of a 4X game; it's an RTS pretender. It's excellent at that role but it isn't really the same thing.

Endless Space tends to take a more macro approach to things; there's very little micro management in the game at all. Planets are grouped with their home star. Each planet can have one type of exploitation on it which focuses the planet on producing a particular thing (e.g. optimises food output or research). Systems can have projects built which affects the entire system in a similar sort of way that you'd build things on planets in GalCiv2. Otherwise there are no "buildings" per se on individual planets. Most improvements and fleet construction is done at the system-level.

Fleet combat is a bit lacking; basically you have limited control over what happens. It's not an RTS like Sword of the Stars for example; there are three phases to combat and for each phase you select a battle card which gives your fleet various bonuses. Cards can cancel each other out; if your card for example cancels out the enemy card they get no advantage from that card and it effectively gives your fleet a major advantage. Otherwise you have no control over what happens in the battle itself; it's down to your fleet composition. There are three weapons and three defences which work in a rock-paper-scissors way, and the different weapons are more/less effective in the different phases and tend to have slightly different operation methods. For example missiles are most effective in the early combat phase and do massive damage but only fire once and can be fairly inaccurate. Kinetic weapons are most effective in the final combat phase and fire four times but do reduced damage. You design your own ships in terms of choosing what weapons and systems they have, but you don't select their visuals like in GalCiv2.

Upgrading is much the same as any other game. Ships can be upgraded to a more recent model of the same class for example.

[vinraith]

Sins honestly makes me wonder if it's even possible to have a space 4X game without the ability to design your own ships.

[jnx]

Sins is as much of a 4x game as is Supreme Commander. I don't get why people call it such sometimes.

[FriendlyFire]

At its core, the term "4X" just means Explore, Expand, Exploit, Exterminate. Sins fits the bill just as well as Gal Civ 2 does. We've just come to associate 4X with a more in-depth experience, usually turn-based.

I still think of Sins as a real-time 4X, though; it may lack ship customization and in-depth planetary management, but it instead offers a much more seamless experience in real time. Some may consider that that puts it outside the borders of the 4X genre, but that's really just semantics.

[jnx]

If you take a loose approach to 4x then Starcraft and Command & Conquer will fit too. After all, you do explore, expand, exploit and exterminate.

[FriendlyFire]

I beg to differ.

Traditional RTS games do not most of the time involve an "exploration" phase. At best you'll do some scouting to determine the enemy's build order and/or race, but that's all there is to it.

"Expanding" in Starcraft involves building a few buildings after a predetermined amount of time has elapsed, which isn't really what "expanding" is about (ie conquering or otherwise taking over dozens of "nodes", be they cities, planets, etc.).

"Exploit" is similar, but happens immediately and throughout the game for traditional RTS games, whereas it's a clear phase in 4X games (the order of the terms does matter!).

"Exterminate" is the same for everything so I'll give you that.

I know we're just arguing semantics but I don't think it's wrong to lump Sins as a 4X game even if it might not fit the extremely narrow definition some people have of the genre.

[soldant]

Sins plays out the same way except you're limited in where you can move. You can do anything within gravity wells, and that's it. Otherwise you're basically placing structures the same as any other RTS. The "empire" development is very shallow, and the majority of it translates directly to military power. There's very little 'exploitation' in Sins.

What separates Sins from Starcraft for example is the map size and restrictions on movement. Otherwise it's like building lots of little bases to make fleets to rush the enemy. It's got a lot of Exterminate, but not much Exploit.

It does however force Expansion... so it still stands apart from traditional RTS games. But it's also very much separate from GalCiv2.

[vinraith]

As I've said many times, Sins is either an unusual and interesting RTS game or a piss-poor 4X game, depending on how you want to label it. Calling it 4X does it no favors, because it really only handles 2 of those X's well (expand and exterminate).

[c-Row]

Well, SotS apparently introduced a fifth X into the equation with "Extremely buggy". Glad that Endless Space seems to lack that particular X as far as I can tell.

[SlipOnShoes]

I never played SotS, but I played quite a bit of Sins. So far I like Endless Space more because of the traditional, turn-based style. I always felt rushed in Sins (and I know that's probably part of the fun for most players). I fell like I can relax a bit in Endless Space and enjoy the character that the game has. But, don't get me wrong: Sins was good fun for a while.

[vinraith]

Well, SotS apparently introduced a fifth X into the equation with "Extremely buggy". Glad that Endless Space seems to lack that particular X as far as I can tell.

That'd be SotS 2, everyone here is talking about the first one. Don't get me wrong, I think SotS 2 has enormous potential and the devs have been working their asses off to fix the train wreck that was it's launch condition, but I can't really vouch for it yet.

From what I understand Endless Space is on the opposite end of the 4X spectrum from both SotS games in that SotS is extremely combat-focused, and Endless Space is heavily empire management focused. There's plenty of room for both of them. In a lot of ways, I'm hoping Endless Space ends up being something akin to Gal Civ 3.

[FriendlyFire]

It's definitely on the right track. I'd say it could merely keep expanding on what it currently has and it'd be fairly close to a spiritual successor to Gal Civ 2 with a much better art style and UI.

Honestly, the UI in Endless Space is the one thing that distinguishes it the most. I wish every other 4X game put even half as much effort into it, as opposed to just cloning what came before.

[ASX]

One big point with combat that disturbs me - heroes feel like they gain too much experience from winning battles. With a single well equipped fleet that can take opponents until they research an equal tech counter, that fleet can gain a hero a few hundred exp - enough for 7-10 levels. That's enough for a 60-80% damage increase, multiple repair perks to fully heal a moderately damaged fleet back to full health, and a couple of speed perks to run around beating opponents to the punch. Due to the nature of hard counters completely deflecting damage, the fleet never takes damage until the opponent outfits ships to counter... At which point I send my ships back, pay to retrofit to counter their counters, and proceed back to wrecking fleets.

After romping around for a while, I do want to play SotS for combat. I have an AI that can terraform planets and travel wormholes... and yet it can't compute how to evade dumb projectiles in space combat. I want to grab the controls and get them out of convoy formation, instead of Napoleonic naval combat every battle.

[Batolemaeus]

Splicing SotS and Endless Space together would indeed be compelling. The combat side of SotS is compelling with its many details and counters and counter-counters. The UI is full of bugs and unresponsive, but there's a lot of depth to both research and combat. I'd love to have less micro management though.

To be honest, SotS enrages me with its bugs and clunky UI. But Endless Space bores me, and in a way that is far worse. The game is flashy and shiny, but very shallow.

[vinraith]

The UI is full of bugs and unresponsive, but there's a lot of depth to both research and combat. I'd love to have less micro management though.

To be honest, SotS enrages me with its bugs and clunky UI. But Endless Space bores me, and in a way that is far worse. The game is flashy and shiny, but very shallow.


You should clearly specify which SotS you're talking about. I'm assuming it must be 2 (which is still having its issues worked out), given that I've never experienced a bug or UI problem of any sort in 1 under 1.8.

[Batolemaeus]

Err, yes, SotS2. The first one is nearly perfect in my opinion, but the second one is more of an expansion on the foundation with immense growing pains.

[vinraith]

Err, yes, SotS2. The first one is nearly perfect in my opinion, but the second one is more of an expansion on the foundation with immense growing pains.

Yeah. They're certainly working their asses off to try and fix it, I hope they're able to make something of it when all is said and done.

[Vicious]

SotS itself was also incredibly buggy at launch and took a long time to get anyway stable (wasn't really in a release condition until after second expansion imo). The UI has also aged terribly, I found it shocking going back to it recently after not playing in ~3 years.

[vinraith]

SotS itself was also incredibly buggy at launch and took a long time to get anyway stable (wasn't really in a release condition until after second expansion imo).

Yup, I just hope SotS2 is able to see that same kind of expansion and support.


The UI has also aged terribly, I found it shocking going back to it recently after not playing in ~3 years.

To each their own I guess, I absolutely love the UI in SotS 1.

[soldant]

I played SotS following the recommendations here and while I like the general idea of the game I find the UI to be too clunky to be of any use. I hate the camera the most, particularly in fleet battles. I also find it's too heavy on micromanagement, especially with fleet design. The first 5 or 6 times I designed my own ships I thought it was cool, but then I stopped having fun upgrading lasers etc only to never build that design because it'd be obsolete very quickly anyway.

[FriendlyFire]

SotS's UI is okay (it's also very ugly, but at least that's not really problematic). It doesn't do anything particularly wrong, even if some functionality is hidden away pretty far.

SotS with a few polishing touches and Endless Space's UI would be most amazing. I also have to say I quite appreciate Endless Space's more logical/realistic depiction of space; SotS's "one planet == one star" thing is really just plain weird, even if their planet classification model is more flexible and interesting in terms of gameplay than Endless Space's more straightforward planet type model.

[soldant]

I also have to say I quite appreciate Endless Space's more logical/realistic depiction of space;
Yes! It's wonderful to see a 4x game that acknowledges that planets orbit stars and that planets aren't all rocky spheres. I also like how it acknowledges that there's more than one type of galaxy in the universe. It seems like the last game to do this was MOO2; everything else either has the SotS "one planet to rule them all" system or has planets placed haphazardly around a star in entirely illogical arrangements. Or in SoaSE you have planets pretending to be star systems orbiting a star along with random things like asteroids or plasma storms.

[vinraith]

Yes! It's wonderful to see a 4x game that acknowledges that planets orbit stars and that planets aren't all rocky spheres. I also like how it acknowledges that there's more than one type of galaxy in the universe. It seems like the last game to do this was MOO2; everything else either has the SotS "one planet to rule them all" system or has planets placed haphazardly around a star in entirely illogical arrangements. Or in SoaSE you have planets pretending to be star systems orbiting a star along with random things like asteroids or plasma storms.

Ascendancy properly handled planets orbiting around stars, actually, though I suppose it was contemporary with MOO2. It was always pretty cool, because planetary defense satellites couldn't always cover the warp points into the star system, what with the planets moving.

Distant Worlds does this as well. Full solar systems with moving planets, but then Distant Worlds is more of a space empire simulator than just about any 4X game I've ever seen.

SotS 2 has multiple planets per system as well, though I've not played it enough to see how that pans out.

And yes, SoaSE's lack of basic physical sense drives me quietly insane.

As to SotS 1, I'm generally willing to buy the idea that if there turn out to be any habitable planets in a system, there will probably only be one. It's an abstraction, but at least the terraforming system makes sense. Every race has its own habitability band, sometimes hugely far apart, an planetary bombardment does ecological damage. Good stuff.

[archonsod]

SotS 2 has multiple planets per system as well, though I've not played it enough to see how that pans out.

It's working incredibly well. In fact I faced my first visit from Sparky the other week which really demonstrated how nice the system worked. Even if he did ultimately win.

[Batolemaeus]

It takes time getting used to, especially since random encounters can spawn near any planet, but you never know where. I've had several colonies hurt because of it, which is frustrating when you do have a few defense fleets around but you spawned on the other side of the system.

Btw., is it just me or do planets actually orbit their star?

[SlipOnShoes]

I'm not so sure about the "expansion disapproval" penalty. I saw others wondering about it and I have to say that it's seems strange that the fictional inhabitants of my pretend empire are angry that the empire is growing. What would've been other ways to make the game more challenging as your control of the galaxy spreads, or is this the best option?

[Subatomic]

I'm not so sure about the "expansion disapproval" penalty. I saw others wondering about it and I have to say that it's seems strange that the fictional inhabitants of my pretend empire are angry that the empire is growing. What would've been other ways to make the game more challenging as your control of the galaxy spreads, or is this the best option?

It sounds fairly logical to me. Space programs and interplanetary expansion are expensive, and just look at the people on our own planet that argue the space program is a waste of money as long as we haven't fixed more important problems. You need major propaganda efforts like in the US and Soviet Union during the 50s and 60s to bring your citizens behind your space programs (and Endless Space actually has research projects that do just that, leading to a reduction in expansion disapproval).

[Patrick Swayze]

I find you can combat the expansion disapproval by growing your population on one planet before spreading to another in the same system. Works for me anyway.

But then I've yet to win a game so WHATEVZ YO.

[arathain]

Yeah, expansion of any sort takes a huge concerted effort on the part of a populous over a long period of time with very little in the way of return for many years, and even that comes somewhat in the abstract to an individual citizen.

[cowthief skank]

I kind of put it down to the idea that a larger empire would be more difficult to keep happy from a central government. Keeping even one country happy is hard enough, let alone ten or 15 planets...

[SlipOnShoes]

You need major propaganda efforts like in the US and Soviet Union during the 50s and 60s to bring your citizens behind your space programs

I see what you're saying, but that was more like trying to garner the support of an indifferent population, rather than a population disapproving of your actions. I don't dislike the mechanic, and I do like trying to counter the discontent of my citizens, I just don't get why it is the way it is, to be vague. And I saw that technology you referred to, thanks to the awesome search function that the tech tree (shamrock?) has. So useful.

[archonsod]

It takes time getting used to, especially since random encounters can spawn near any planet, but you never know where. I've had several colonies hurt because of it, which is frustrating when you do have a few defense fleets around but you spawned on the other side of the system.

Btw., is it just me or do planets actually orbit their star?

They do. I like the random spawn in nature, it makes the more valuable multi-planet systems harder to defend. That said it depends on where in the game you're at; early encounters are nasty, but by the mid game you should have planetary batteries as well as their missiles, which can hold off most randoms (barring a greater menace) until the fleet can get across the system. It's sometimes worth keeping a few faster defence ships in larger systems who can run max speed to any incursions and aggro the attackers until the main fleet arrives.


I find you can combat the expansion disapproval by growing your population on one planet before spreading to another in the same system. Works for me anyway.

Then you just build up an overcrowding penalty :P

[SanguineAngel]

I see what you're saying, but that was more like trying to garner the support of an indifferent population, rather than a population disapproving of your actions. I don't dislike the mechanic, and I do like trying to counter the discontent of my citizens, I just don't get why it is the way it is, to be vague. And I saw that technology you referred to, thanks to the awesome search function that the tech tree (shamrock?) has. So useful.

It really is exactly as Subatomic says. Think about it, in order to expand your empire quickly you need to pour a significant amount of research into the exploration tech tree, probably also the military tech tree since you'll be making contact pretty swiftly too most likely, thus ignoring other areas of development from which your current populace would benefit. It makes sense that the populace is unhappy. You're essentially forgetting about their needs

Man, I picked this up Saturday and it is sublime