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View Full Version : In Praise of: Kick-Off Return



Alistair Hutton
13-08-2012, 04:25 PM
Kick-Off Return eh? Who the fuck's going to want that then? Dwarves maybe I suppose, the slow fucks, but no other fucker's going to want to waste 20 points of TV on a skill that only works when you receive and all it does is get you 3 steps closer to the ball.

That's what I thought anyways.

Kick Off Return, as a human player, has revolutionised my offence. I have a Strong Arm/Accurate thrower, I gave him KOR a few games ago as I didn't know what else to give him as I thought that Safe-Throw was fatally bugged.

Now, instead of needing 2 men in my backfield to receive the kick I just need my thrower as he can cover the entire pitch without a GFI with KOR. I can use more men up on the line of scrimmage to put a serious hurt on whilst he is deep gathering the ball. If the kick goes short, even better. KOR gets my man up to it fast and gives me enough movement to setup my cage inside my opponents half where ever I want it to be rather than scraping it into position at the limits of my movement under duress.

KOR, the little skill that could.

Zoraster
13-08-2012, 04:35 PM
One of my first double choices on a 'fling. Can dramatically improve the odds of the turn 8/16 one turner and if you can get under the ball a free catch roll is always good for any AG3 team. That said it is one of those little skills that you'd like on most teams but you can normally find something you want more. I always take it very early on Orcs, Dwarf and Khemri but elsewhere it tends to be a very late choice that rarely makes it onto the pitch before the player meets his end.

Screwie
13-08-2012, 04:45 PM
Yeah it's unfortunate it's a double skill for stunties, as they would be giving up a lot of skill options in order to take it.

Everblue
13-08-2012, 04:52 PM
The most dangerous time on offence for a bashy team is, it seems to me, the time which lasts until the ball is safely in the hands of your carrier and the carrier is in the cage. Anything that reduces that is good, and so I really like KOR.

cyberpunkdreams
13-08-2012, 04:57 PM
I've only tried it on my dwarf team so far, and it's really valuable for them. I have it on a +mv runner, making them almost fast in offence! I'll be getting it for my DoD gobbos too, if I can. As for other teams... definitely nice to have, but hard when there are so many other skills from which to chose.

(BTW, I think safe throw is working as it should be now.)

Jiiiiim
13-08-2012, 04:57 PM
Gives you a bit more control receiving the kickoff, including that horrible monster known as the Blitz result. I haven't regretted putting it on Pythagoras on the humans

On a related note this is exactly the sort of little thing I'm looking for in the Coaches' Corner submissions >_>

ChainsawHands
13-08-2012, 05:02 PM
Now, instead of needing 2 men in my backfield to receive the kick I just need my thrower as he can cover the entire pitch without a GFI with KOR.My elfs would like to thank you in advance for only using one player to cover the pickup.

Alistair Hutton
13-08-2012, 05:29 PM
My elfs would like to thank you in advance for only using one player to cover the pickup.

Good job I'm not good enough to be in the champions league then isn't it! Hah, how do you like them apples?

Also, I'm using my extra man to gang foul an elf on the line of scrimmage.

Heliocentric
13-08-2012, 05:38 PM
Also, I'm using my extra man to gang foul an elf on the line of scrimmage.
Who needs the ball anyway? You can start scoring when the pitch is clear.

ChainsawHands
13-08-2012, 05:39 PM
Even better: picking up the ball's only a 1/9 chance of a turnover, it's a mighty 1/6 if you're fouling first.

I can see the attraction of freeing up a player, but you're still only going to get 3 blocks and a blitz, and I've learned from painful experience (some of it painful for me, some for my opponents) that not covering the pickup against a fast team like elfs or skaven will at some point leave you a TD down.

Screwie
13-08-2012, 05:45 PM
My elfs would like to thank you in advance for only using one player to cover the pickup.

Depends on the elf... MA 7 covers so much of the field I'm not sure KOR is worth it.

MA 6 or less it's fantastic though.

Heliocentric
13-08-2012, 05:52 PM
Depends on the elf... MA 7 covers so much of the field I'm not sure KOR is worth it.

MA 6 or less it's fantastic though.

That's not what he meant. He's being menacing,

President Weasel
13-08-2012, 06:24 PM
On the one hand, an additional player on the frontline makes it harder for the baddies to reach the ball on a blitz result; on the other... isn't that your thrower over there with two gutter runners hanging off him? Looks like the third one has the ball and is nailed on for a touchdown.

That said, kickoff return is definitely a useful skill, and one I would take instead of kick on all those teams where people suggest getting a kicker.
I even called one of my orc throwers "Leader McKickoffreturn" as those were the skills I planned to give him - I am pretty sure he died before I could.

Screwie
14-08-2012, 12:23 PM
That's not what he meant. He's being menacing,

Ah, I don't do menacing :P

ChainsawHands
14-08-2012, 12:35 PM
Menacing is a... bizarre interpretation, unless you think that I'm trying to menace someone I'm not playing against any time soon into not making a positioning mistake against me if we ever do play. ;-)

groovychainsaw
14-08-2012, 12:42 PM
As part of my reconstruction of my human team, I'm considering getting the second thrower and making him block/leader/kickoffreturner, so this is a good discussion for me, gives me confidence that it is not a stupid idea - I already have accurate/strong arm thrower (who is 3 points away from getting the dumpoff I want for him - which might launch into a long discussion about why i shouldn't get dumpoff, but I'm willing to have that argument ;-D)

Alistair Hutton
14-08-2012, 01:12 PM
Dump-off seems like an oddball pick for Humans. Basically in situations where you dump off I think the Humans AG3 is going to be further inhibited by the large number of tackle zones that are going to be hanging around any potential targets.

President Weasel
14-08-2012, 01:19 PM
'It's a stat that is only useful when you've screwed up - you should be spending all your time and effort ensuring you've wasted the TV you sank into the skill. Get block so he stays up or sure hands so he can't get stripped" vs 'it's a stat that's really useful when you've screwed up - when you've spent all your time and effort protecting the ball carrier but haven't managed, or some ridiculous leap player has hit him anyway, dump-off can save your entire match. If you only use it once in a season and it turns defeat into victory it's worth all the TV" with a side order of "I hate dump off because you have to use it before you know if your ball carrier is actually going to spill the ball".


Job done, let's move on.

Alistair Hutton
14-08-2012, 02:06 PM
I think Dump Off works really, really well on AG 4 players, it means that opponents have to properly man mark your players otherwise the ball is just going to go to a free elf. And as they say, the tighter you squeeze the more that slip through your fingers. However, I think at AG3 the ball is going to end up on the ground just as much as when your carrier is hit without it and worse potentially out of the scrum.

President Weasel
14-08-2012, 02:50 PM
Accurate and strong arm work for dump-off though, don't they? He's at least ag4, effectively.

Screwie
14-08-2012, 03:52 PM
Not Strong Arm, but Accurate yes.

Everblue
14-08-2012, 04:04 PM
You also need to catch the damn thing, of course.

Screwie
14-08-2012, 04:11 PM
Eh, catching is optional. There's no turnover if you miss, and if all else fails you can chuck it into open space to make your opponent waste a few more squares of movement to retrieve it. :)

The worst that can happen with Dump-Off is when you fumble it.

cyberpunkdreams
14-08-2012, 04:53 PM
The worst that can happen with Dump-Off is when you fumble it.

And you were probably going to lose it anyway, so... and if you do succeed in the pass, the chances of your opponent getting the ball that turn can sink to nothingness.

Anyway, nerves of motherhumping steel + dump-off, anyone?

Kajo
14-08-2012, 07:15 PM
Screwie has them on his elves, i think?


"I got you!"
*dump-off*
"I got you again!"
*dump-off*
"aaaarghhh"

groovychainsaw
15-08-2012, 02:41 PM
I've derailed this from kick return, as I thought I might (apologies Al!), but a little insight into my thinking...

My thrower is effectively AG4 with accurate.
He has been built to throw, primarily, so has invested in throwing skills (strong arm, accurate).
In almost all circumstances, he will be in a cage of guarded blitzers, waiting to long bomb to my catchers/run it in himself. No problems.

What if someone gets in the cage? I could invest in block and dodge (on doubles!). However, in my more recent top level games, the opposition with a leaping player/blitzer almost always has wrestle/tackle, negating any levels spent on that protection. Given that a lot of positioning work has to be done before that final hit in a well-guarded cage, being able to throw the ball to a nearby blitzer/catcher EVEN IF THEY DROP IT might be preferable. Even if not, its optional, I can choose to hold it/get knocked down in the square if that looks safer. Follow up skill would be nerves of steel, if he ever gets that far, for a relatively safe throw to 'someone'. Given the number of times elves have leapt in, made the hit, picked up the ball, and passed OUT OF THE MIDDLE OF MY CAGE, it seems a good option to throw the ball away from them.

Screwie
15-08-2012, 02:48 PM
Screwie has them on his elves, i think?

"I got you!"
*dump-off*
"I got you again!"
*dump-off*
"aaaarghhh"

Yep I have three of them and hoping for a 4th :)


What if someone gets in the cage? I could invest in block and dodge (on doubles!). However, in my more recent top level games, the opposition with a leaping player/blitzer almost always has wrestle/tackle, negating any levels spent on that protection.

A risky and rather silly thought just struck me. I wonder if you could force a turnover against a Wrestle attacker by using Dump-Off to pass the ball directly to them?

Obviously, they could choose not to use the Wrestle skill, but what if your thrower/runner was the one with Wrestle? Hmm...

ChainsawHands
15-08-2012, 02:59 PM
Dump-off never causes a turnover.

potatoedoughnut
15-08-2012, 03:10 PM
He's saying pass it to the guy with wrestle before the block, then if the attacker chooses a BD result he will drop the ball, resulting in a TO.

This seems unlikely as the player blocking would just not choose a BD result unless forced to.

Heliocentric
15-08-2012, 03:33 PM
Still, a Wrestle dump off player could be a fecking manace, i guess thats a use for low agility. Dump off the ball passed to me? Nuh uh! I have AG1!

ChainsawHands
15-08-2012, 03:34 PM
Oh, yeah. That would... well, "work" might be putting it a bit strongly. ;)

President Weasel
15-08-2012, 03:44 PM
Oh that's a "brilliant" "idea". Watch as your opponent gets push/push, shoves your man away, and runs off with the ball that, it turns out, you could have simply held onto.

Wolfenswan
15-08-2012, 03:46 PM
Well then you need a Wrestle/DumpOff/StandFirm player!

Heliocentric
15-08-2012, 03:52 PM
Oh, yeah. That would... well, "work" might be putting it a bit strongly. ;)

If it was 2D against the attacker you'd have good odds. (skull or BD on either dice is 20/36). The hard part would be getting them to catch the ball, maybe an elf player with catch who has catch set to always use.


Well then you need a Wrestle/DumpOff/StandFirm player!

Or sidestep for all those elves.

Everblue
15-08-2012, 03:57 PM
Well then you need a Wrestle/DumpOff/StandFirm player!

And tentacles!

Screwie
15-08-2012, 03:59 PM
Oh that's a "brilliant" "idea". Watch as your opponent gets push/push, shoves your man away, and runs off with the ball that, it turns out, you could have simply held onto.

I did describe it as "risky and rather silly" :)

It might only ever be worth looking at in the fringiest of fringe cases, but a Wrestle/Dump Off player is still a solid nuisance without resorting to such shenanigans.


Well then you need a Wrestle/DumpOff/StandFirm player!

Haha, Stand Firm or Side Step as the third skill would make it even better!

Kajo
16-08-2012, 06:32 AM
The hard part would be getting them to catch the ball, maybe an elf player with catch who has catch set to always use.

Don't you need to always try to catch the ball?

ChainsawHands
16-08-2012, 10:25 AM
Don't you need to always try to catch the ball?Yes, but you don't need to use the catch skill to reroll a failed catch.

Kajo
17-08-2012, 10:24 AM
Yes, but you don't need to use the catch skill to reroll a failed catch.

Can you reroll a successful catch?

ChainsawHands
17-08-2012, 10:35 AM
Catch only lets you reroll a failed catch. Technically you should be able to use a team reroll on any roll, so you should be able to reroll a successful catch that way, but I don't think​ the Cyanide game lets you do so.