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Heliocentric
16-08-2012, 12:11 PM
There are 2 nightmare situations for any team. Becoming broke financially and losing pivotal stars. The blackle Tomb Guardian, the +AG Skink and the + ST Gutter Runner all come to mind.

But for some teams being broke scarcely matters. Norse block makes their principle function unaffected, zombies/skell still mark like kings, DElf and Helf linemen are still mobile and capable with the ball, Goblins and Halflings are disposable fodder.

Yes loner can be annoying, but the biggest issue is bench depth. Fouls, KO's and casualties can all spell out a ball rolling where you end up with 3 players on the, pitch and 10 opponents.

Squiz
16-08-2012, 12:34 PM
You mentioned Skinks - actually I think Skinks are some of the better Journeyman choices. You can use them more liberally on defense and put them into spots where you wouldn't dare to put your 'real' special little guys.

Also, you don't have to be broke to use this strategy. I often see FUMBBL teams with one or two Journeymen although they could afford to hire new team members. This is especially true for Woodelves who can still perform decently when they are down a few players.

Alistair Hutton
16-08-2012, 03:12 PM
I have 950,000 in the bank. I could afford to hire a new team.

President Weasel
16-08-2012, 03:14 PM
My Divisions chaos team has 750,000. I could afford to hire and immediately sack 5 minotaurs.

Screwie
16-08-2012, 03:41 PM
They may be fodder but subsisting on journeymen is a terrible tactic for Goblins, because it means you have 10 or less creatures on your permanent roster and zero substitutes - and probably more than one Secret Weapon, which will only compound matters. If you end up in this situation, expect to be horribly outnumbered by the end of the match.

Heliocentric
16-08-2012, 04:08 PM
To be fair, I wasn't thinking carefully when I mentioned goblins.

Skink Journeymen are rather good, but skinks with AG4 (add nerves of steel for godless bastardry) are just revolting when you consider they have 6 ST4+MV6+GS access body guards.

So. I think that yeah, skinks are okay Journeymen because of how nice it is to use them with reckless disregard.

20phoenix
17-08-2012, 09:43 AM
They may be fodder but subsisting on journeymen is a terrible tactic for Goblins, because it means you have 10 or less creatures on your permanent roster and zero substitutes - and probably more than one Secret Weapon, which will only compound matters. If you end up in this situation, expect to be horribly outnumbered by the end of the match.

Thats not entirely true. Due to the cheapness of the goblin roster in general if you are down to under 11 players you're almost certain to be receiving massive inducements with which you can top up the bench

Screwie
17-08-2012, 01:20 PM
There are many nice things a goblin team can spend inducements on, but mercenary Lonerfied goblins at 70k each (almost double the cost of roster goblins) are pretty much a waste of money.

20phoenix
17-08-2012, 02:40 PM
You misunderstand me. Once you've got your bribes and wizard/babes any player after that, star or not, deepens your bench. Its quite plausible for a goblin team down to a starting roster of less than 11 to be receiving 700+ in inducements which means multiple stars. Its not ideal but definitely viable.

Heliocentric
17-08-2012, 02:42 PM
That's a mercenary, journeymen show up only if your team + mercenaries + star players isn't 11 men.

Zoraster
17-08-2012, 02:58 PM
That's a mercenary, journeymen show up only if your team + mercenaries + star players isn't 11 men.

Not the case at all Helio. Journeymen are taken (or not... bloody Cyanide really annoy me with their compulsory JM) as part of the post match sequence. Their TV has to be added onto the roster before inducements are calculated so you only start thinking about Stars and Mercs afterwards.

El Cubo
17-08-2012, 03:02 PM
Still, I don't know why you would let regular goblins to be substituted by journeymen if you have the money to get a deep bench. If you start with 11 players on your roster, you'll be playing with 8 players after the first drive.

potatoedoughnut
20-08-2012, 04:18 PM
I think a rookie mistake a lot of new coaches make is hanging onto injured 0spp linemen early in team development, and also replacing linemen before they fill out their positionals.

With most competitive teams the difference between a regular and loner lino on the LoS in minimal and the cash is better spent on filling out the key parts of your roster with positionals or additional RRs.

Gorm
20-08-2012, 10:08 PM
What about in a vamp team? Filling out all the vamps before you have replacement thralls is a terrible idea.

potatoedoughnut
21-08-2012, 01:59 AM
What about in a vamp team? Filling out all the vamps before you have replacement thralls is a terrible idea.

Yes, obviously this is not universally acceptable. T3 teams in particular don't want to skimp on goblins/thralls/halflings.

But buying a bunch of replacement line-elfs instead of a new catcher or blitzer generally isn't the best strategy.

Wolfenswan
30-08-2012, 11:59 AM
1. If you hire a merc/journeyman after a match they loose loner, right?
2. In a league that needs admin verification, will the money you have available at the end to buy a merc be excl. or incl. winnings?

Screwie
30-08-2012, 12:09 PM
1. Journeymen - Yes. You can never hire a merc.
2. Excluding winnings (not sure if this is a Cyanide error or rules as written).

ChainsawHands
30-08-2012, 12:21 PM
1. You can't hire mercs, only journeymen, but they do lose loner. (Step 6, page 29 of the rules.)
2. Should be including (winnings are generated at step 2). The bug list (http://forum.bloodbowl-game.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=100) seems to suggest this isn't working correctly, though (and also that the game calls journeymen mercenaries, which is a nice bit of extra confusion).

bigc90210
13-02-2013, 05:13 PM
lost count the amount of times loners have got spp's or/and MVP then i haven't had enough money to buy them (but i have after i've got my match money). possibly the most backwards/stupid thing about the cyannide version, they seriously need to sort that issue out.

President Weasel
13-02-2013, 05:50 PM
The last time we talked about this, I complained that the winnings weren't added to your money pool until after you got the opportunity to buy journeymen, and was told it was behaving as it was supposed to according to the rulebook.

Screwie
13-02-2013, 06:15 PM
That person was telling you porkies, PW! It's as Hands says, in the tabletop rules the winning are added to your roster before you have to fire/hire journeymen in the post-match sequence.

ChainsawHands
13-02-2013, 06:33 PM
Post-match sequence, page 29 in the rules (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m750496a_BB_Competition_Rules_Pack.pdf).

frenz0rz
13-02-2013, 09:23 PM
Post-match sequence, page 29 in the rules (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m750496a_BB_Competition_Rules_Pack.pdf).

Not to derail the thread, but while you're on that page it's worth also taking a look at the rules for conceding a game.

For those too lazy to click the link, the rule is that you may concede without suffering any of the usual MVP/winnings/FF loss if you can only field 2 or less players on a kick-off. I know it doesn't happen very often, but for the rare occasions when it does this is something that the Cyanide game could definitely do with.

Interestingly, it also claims that if you concede when having more than 2 available players, any player with more than 51 SPPs rolling a 1-3 on a D6 will leave the team permanently. How harsh is that?!

NieA7
13-02-2013, 11:24 PM
Interestingly, it also claims that if you concede when having more than 2 available players, any player with more than 51 SPPs rolling a 1-3 on a D6 will leave the team permanently. How harsh is that?!

It's an excellent rule I wholeheartedly endorse, unfortunately it's just not possible for an internet game given your connection could die for days at a moment's notice. Shame, might encourage a better attitude among some coaches if it was in - would make min/maxers think twice at least.

Screwie
14-02-2013, 09:39 AM
Yeah, unfortunately there's no way to differentiate between an accidental and intentional disconnect, so I am glad Cyanide didn't implement it as is.

One way it could be implemented is with more robust league admin tools - if a player concedes or is reported to have deliberately disconnected, the admin could manually activate the above procedure manually when it comes to validate the game.

potatoedoughnut
14-02-2013, 05:08 PM
Yeah, unfortunately there's no way to differentiate between an accidental and intentional disconnect, so I am glad Cyanide didn't implement it as is.

One way it could be implemented is with more robust league admin tools - if a player concedes or is reported to have deliberately disconnected, the admin could manually activate the above procedure manually when it comes to validate the game.

Or if they had some sort of code to re-connect to a game in progress.

ChainsawHands
14-02-2013, 05:45 PM
Or if they had some sort of code to re-connect to a game in progress.That would be nice, but it still doesn't really help with the concession rules: if your internet connection goes down for the day you'd still be out of luck.

I suppose we could manually enforce a "groovychainsaw (or whoever) rolls a d6 and you have to fire the player" type of thing, but I don't see it catching on.

Everblue
14-02-2013, 05:52 PM
It's an excellent rule I wholeheartedly endorse, unfortunately it's just not possible for an internet game given your connection could die for days at a moment's notice. Shame, might encourage a better attitude among some coaches if it was in - would make min/maxers think twice at least.

If I ruled the world I would enforce if after the second disconnect or concession for any reason in any (say) five game period. If you don't like it, you leave the league. I'm aware that I'm in the minority here though. Would certainly make people think twice about conceding if you knew that your internet collapsing in the next four games would lose you some players. Equally if your internet isn't 80% reliable you shouldn't be playing in the first place I don't think.

But then I'm not very nice.

Heliocentric
14-02-2013, 05:54 PM
A league setting certainly, you don't need to use it.

Screwie
14-02-2013, 06:00 PM
Or if they had some sort of code to re-connect to a game in progress.

If the servers had the ability to store and resume games in progress, it certainly would solve a lot of problems. As teams would be locked into a game in progress too, that could be a way to ensure concessions are genuine. Smart idea.

ChainsawHands
14-02-2013, 06:02 PM
Honestly, I've not found concessions to be a thing in RPS. I think I've had 2, both in the Cup: one when 5 KOs stayed down so he had 3 skaven on the pitch after half time (which I thought was fair enough), and a ragequit (alt+f4 so I got stuck with the disconnect message) because my orcs were stalling before scoring the winning and only touchdown. Neither of them had any 51+ SPP players anyway.

Everblue
14-02-2013, 06:16 PM
It's not been an issue here, I guess because people tend to be nice. It's more of an issue in the OCC, to be honest, and a couple of the top elven coaches have a history of conceding against bash when they lose a few players. Poor form.

Heliocentric
14-02-2013, 06:20 PM
Fecking elves, it's the coaches that are pansies, not the players.

*ponders*

Not me... The other coaches . I'd happy bury the whole team if it was right(as in actually happened).

NieA7
14-02-2013, 08:18 PM
If the servers had the ability to store and resume games in progress, it certainly would solve a lot of problems.

Loukas, the dev doing all the patches at the moment, sort of hinted this may be something we could see soon - http://bbtactics.com/forums/server-migration-testing-so-far-t2247/page32/#post56588


Honestly, I've not found concessions to be a thing in RPS.

Yeah, I've not found it a problem in the RPS leagues, but leveling a Nurgle team in Naggeroth showed me what a lovely little oasis we have here.

Screwie
14-02-2013, 08:43 PM
That would be pretty damn awesome if that happened.