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AlexClockwork
30-08-2012, 07:22 PM
So, I just discovered Steam Greenlight... Seems like a nice idea to me. The community wants a game, votes it, and it gets to Steam. What are your opinions about it?

Here's Valve's explanation:

What is Steam Greenlight?

Steam Greenlight is a new system that enlists the community's help in picking some of the next games to be released on Steam. Developers post information, screenshots, and videos for their game and seek a critical mass of community support in order to get selected for distribution. Steam Greenlight also helps developers get feedback from potential customers and start creating an active community around their game as early in the development process as they like.

http://steamcommunity.com/greenlight/

Rauten
30-08-2012, 07:24 PM
My opinion is that if you don't vote for Project Giana you're a heartless bastard that should die by fire.

Velko
30-08-2012, 07:27 PM
As it stands now, it's bloody horrible. Yeah, there's a bunch of nice-looking indie titles... But then there's A) a metric shitton of terrible crap, B) games that someone else has made and C) freeware games, because it does in no way control who can put up what. Hell, they have OpenTTD there! And the description even says something like "this is open source, and I didn't make this, but I want this on Steam pretty please". Jesus christ. One was some Vietnamese FPS game, looking nice... and then the last line of the description reads "PS. I have asked the producers and they're OK with this" (or something like that).

It's completely uncontrolled, cluttered mess.

Edit: Hahahaha the discussion forum is made of purified awesome. Counter-Strike 2!!!11

larsiusprime
30-08-2012, 08:07 PM
You'd expect it to be filled with crap in the first few hours - the real test will be to see if the weighting algorithms in the back-end will start to filter the stuff that has no chance from things people might find interesting. This kind of system has been done before, so it's mostly a solved problem - the question is just if Steam will get it right.

Tikey
30-08-2012, 08:08 PM
Edit: Hahahaha the discussion forum is made of purified awesome. Counter-Strike 2!!!11

Oh dear god.
I should've known better. Goodbye faith in humanity.

The JG Man
30-08-2012, 08:15 PM
Ha, screw you guys! You wouldn't know a good thing if it tried seducing you (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92927944) anyhow!

Oh god. It's too funny.

Anyhow, I've up-voted TrackVerse, Little Racers STREET, Cute Things Dying Violently, Project Giana and Dino Run SE. On top of that, I've favourited Perpetuum, Flowstorm and Gear Up. Of those last three, Gear Up has a great art style and looks like a fun vehicular combat game, Perpetuum looks like a decent mech shooter and Flowstorm gets my "Best on show...at the moment" award as an arcadey racing game. Plus points on that one for having a level editor.

Tikey
30-08-2012, 08:37 PM
Oh my god. (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92927214)

SirKicksalot
30-08-2012, 08:39 PM
Seduce Me is one of the few sort of interesting games there.
I wonder how Valve plans to counter snap judgments, anti-anime downvotes and stuff like that.

LTK
30-08-2012, 08:44 PM
Miasmata (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92915716) caught my attention with its survival horror involving cartography and microscopes. Watch the trailer, but skip to 3:00, that's where it gets interesting.

Gorzan
30-08-2012, 08:50 PM
Minecraft clones, form here to the horizon.

LTK
30-08-2012, 08:53 PM
Seduce Me has been banned. Here's another one (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92943904) that's not going to last long.

And look! It's Fly'n! (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92925091)

johnki
30-08-2012, 09:05 PM
Here are the ones I'm really rooting for:

Signal Ops (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92576481&searchtext=) This may very well be one of the most original ideas I've ever seen. At the same time, it kind of reminds me of The Sting! (http://www.dotemu.com/en/download-game/1803/the-sting)

Children of Liberty (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92922065&searchtext=)

Residue (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92921269&searchtext=)

Venusian Vengeance (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92918916&searchtext=) I watched this one on TIGSource for a while. This guy's made a lot of freeware games, and I respect his work, and think he deserves to have at least one game get on to a large digital distributor.

Waiting for Horus (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92917429&searchtext=) Another one I watched on TIGSource. The devs are pretty cool dudes, they had regular play sessions for a while, and the game's got a great aesthetic.

Will Fight For Food (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92917414&searchtext=) Great game with some good humor. I wish it were quite a bit longer, but I really liked it.

Hoodwink (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92904177&searchtext=)

AirBuccaneers (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92650164&searchtext=)

NEStalgia (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92588954&searchtext=)

McPixel (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=91573598&searchtext=) It's a clear parody, but you can feel the love that went into making said parody.

Mutant Mudds (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=91565027&searchtext=) Let's prove Steam wrong on this decision. The game looks awesome.

Organ Trail (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=91564412&searchtext=)

And ones I just found really interesting:

Saturday Morning RPG (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92921217&searchtext=)

Legends of the Old West (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92917833&searchtext=)

International Racing Squirrels (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=91694033&searchtext=)

Enola (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92687143&searchtext=)

The Intruder (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92910126&searchtext=)

DramaGame (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92442554&searchtext=) Probably much more interesting in theory than in practice.

Aril (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=91709206&searchtext=)

8bit MMO (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=91603837&searchtext=)

Gear Up (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=91641700&searchtext=)

SirKicksalot
30-08-2012, 09:12 PM
Seduce Me has been banned.

It was less offensive than some of the fucking disgusting 2D games already up on Steam.

Anyway Greenlight is already an entertaining circus.

Sir Nutmangler
30-08-2012, 09:24 PM
Organ Trail and Slenderman source I rated up. Organ Trail looks pretty humurous and Slenderman Source I've been wanting to try. 8bit MMO looks pretty interesting too but it looks a lot like Realm of a Madd God, which I never played :P

db1331
30-08-2012, 09:37 PM
Secrets of Grindea looks interesting. Basically a SNES RPG with co-op, ala Secret of Mana.

pakoito
30-08-2012, 09:39 PM
This is classic Valve trolling,

2009: "You cannot imagine how much clutter we get to filter from"
2010: "You truly cannot imagine how much clutter we get to filter from"
2011: "You REALLY cannot imagine how much clutter we get to filter from"
2012: "Announcing Steam Greenlight!"

LTK
30-08-2012, 09:49 PM
It was less offensive than some of the fucking disgusting 2D games already up on Steam.

Anyway Greenlight is already an entertaining circus.
I think you mean mobile ports.

Other games that RPS has covered also appear: Octodad, The Real Texas, and Project Zomboid (although I don't need to tell you about the last one).

thegooseking
30-08-2012, 09:58 PM
The first thing I clicked on was Air Buccaneers. Full of comments from people accusing it of being a copy of Guns of Icarus.

Yeah, because a game from 2003 is totally a copy of a game released in 2010. Plagiarism cares nothing for your petty notions of chronology.

So, from that I deduce that it's a Steam community feature. Which, unfortunately, involves the Steam community.

Wheelz
30-08-2012, 10:37 PM
So, from that I deduce that it's a Steam community feature. Which, unfortunately, involves the Steam community.

I giggled.

I'm actually not up on the indie scene (only two indie games I'd want to see on Steam are both aparently on the way already), so if their's a game the RPS community wants to see on Steam, could you state it's name and I'll go vote for it. Obviously the more people who agree with your pick the better.

trjp
30-08-2012, 10:44 PM
It was less offensive than some of the fucking disgusting 2D games already up on Steam.

Anyway Greenlight is already an entertaining circus.

EDIT: Taken down as I posted it

"Big Nigs Over the Border Racing"

No really...

Rauten
30-08-2012, 10:53 PM
Wow. Someone posted S4League. What da fuq.

johnki
30-08-2012, 10:53 PM
8bit MMO looks pretty interesting too but it looks a lot like Realm of a Madd God, which I never played :P8bit MMO is a lot less Realm of the Mad God and a lot more like Ultima Online, which is the closest comparison I can think of.



I'm actually not up on the indie scene (only two indie games I'd want to see on Steam are both aparently on the way already), so if their's a game the RPS community wants to see on Steam, could you state it's name and I'll go vote for it. Obviously the more people who agree with your pick the better.Signal Ops. Definitely Signal Ops. Looks f**king fantastic. That and The Real Texas, Organ Trail, Children of Liberty, Venusian Vengeance, and Hoodwink. Definitely my top picks so far.

trjp
30-08-2012, 10:59 PM
I've been pretty scant with my upvotes - only for games I consider to be something people on Steam might actually be missing

That's Qrth-Phyl (because the developer is awesome), Immortal Defense, Dino Run SE (REALLY!), DRM (another 'because the developer is awesome' choice), Racing Squirrels (just for the sheer brio of it) and Project Giana (because I was testing something and you can't unrate things once you've rated em!)

Game's I'm looking to appear on there would be SpellCaster 1&2, Escape Goat and all the Radian titles - my guess is they'll appear soon and you should vote for them all.

johnki
30-08-2012, 11:01 PM
It's looking like right now, 1% is around 1000. I'm going off of one of the games had 800 favorites, so upvotes would theoretically be anywhere from 150 to 200% of that.

somini
30-08-2012, 11:54 PM
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92970331&searchtext=
Wizardry 8
Wot?

internetonsetadd
30-08-2012, 11:59 PM
Cast my first vote for Kinetic Void (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92922929) (Freelancer-like space sim utilizing procedural generation; successful Kickstarter).

And, uh, Wizardry 8. That can't be legit. Surely it would just come to Steam through regular channels (if it weren't out in limbo land).

amateurscientist
31-08-2012, 12:04 AM
Browsing the selection* I am strongly reminded of browsing the computer fairs of my youth, what with all the awesome box art attached to potentially extremely shonky games.

*browsing, by the way is a nightmare, how are they ordered? Why can't I sort by name or have a list view and aaaaaaaaargh

johnki
31-08-2012, 12:16 AM
*browsing, by the way is a nightmare, how are they ordered? Why can't I sort by name or have a list view and aaaaaaaaargh
You forgot to mention how many times different games seem to repeat.

amateurscientist
31-08-2012, 12:24 AM
You forgot to mention how many times different games seem to repeat.

Yes. That too!

Also, I keep clicking thumbs up and the list of things I need to 'review' keeps getting bigger. Going through the whole pile looks to be a task of Sisyphean proportions.

soldant
31-08-2012, 01:35 AM
So, from that I deduce that it's a Steam community feature. Which, unfortunately, involves the Steam community.
This pretty much sums it up. The Steam community is a massive melting pot of "HNNNNG WAR!" gamers, 13 year old kids, the general gamers, the avant-garde artgamers, the strategists, MLG PRO NOSCOPE crowd, and every shade in between. Steam Greenlight is nothing like the community content creation stuff (Steam Workshop) where actual effort is required to contribute. It's going to be filled with absolute rubbish for ages.


In any event though, while this is probably a good thing for getting other games exposure (ignoring the blatant abuse, I mean suggesting Dungeon Keeper? It's on GOG!), it's clear that Valve are trying to corner every... um, corner of the gaming market with their distribution platform. I guess it'll only fuel the 'No Steam, no sale!" chanting, which is unfortunate.

johnki
31-08-2012, 01:49 AM
This pretty much sums it up. The Steam community is a massive melting pot of "HNNNNG WAR!" gamers, 13 year old kids, the general gamers, the avant-garde artgamers, the strategists, MLG PRO NOSCOPE crowd, and every shade in between. Steam Greenlight is nothing like the community content creation stuff (Steam Workshop) where actual effort is required to contribute. It's going to be filled with absolute rubbish for ages.
This.

I can't begin to describe how pissed I am that Slenderman games galore are each getting more votes than games that genuinely look awesome.

Cooper
31-08-2012, 04:10 AM
As it stands now, it's bloody horrible. Yeah, there's a bunch of nice-looking indie titles... But then there's A) a metric shitton of terrible crap, B) games that someone else has made and C) freeware games, because it does in no way control who can put up what. Hell, they have OpenTTD there! And the description even says something like "this is open source, and I didn't make this, but I want this on Steam pretty please". Jesus christ. One was some Vietnamese FPS game, looking nice... and then the last line of the description reads "PS. I have asked the producers and they're OK with this" (or something like that).

It's completely uncontrolled, cluttered mess.

Edit: Hahahaha the discussion forum is made of purified awesome. Counter-Strike 2!!!11Except that idiot posts like "please put minecraft on Steam even though I'm not from Mojang" get taken down pretty sharpish.

Your problems stem from there not being enough there. Soon the good stuff will rise to the top.

TailSwallower
31-08-2012, 05:26 AM
Seems like it's impossible to actually go through the list because it randomizes/shuffles as you go through. Up voted Project Zomboid and Towns, couldn't really be bothered slogging through the rest though.

baby snot
31-08-2012, 05:38 AM
Just when you thought Steam couldn't get any uglier...

http://i.imgur.com/p26ff.png

Clicking on that image gives you this...

http://i.imgur.com/DARTN.png

Frames. Gross. I guess the masses are not allowed to use tabs...

FriendlyFire
31-08-2012, 05:48 AM
Am I alone who sees a dearth of strategy game? Filtering to "strategy", you barely get three pages and half of them seem to be miscategorized (platformers? top-down RPGs?) or TDs.

icupnimpn2
31-08-2012, 05:57 AM
Seems like it's impossible to actually go through the list because it randomizes/shuffles as you go through. Up voted Project Zomboid and Towns, couldn't really be bothered slogging through the rest though.

Eggggh that's about the worst part. 14 pages might as well be 3000 pages since nothing stays put. There was one game I wanted to upvote but accidentally pressed back on the Steam browser. I went through three pages in either direction twice and could not locate the game again! Eventually filtered down to RPGs, which was just four pages. It only took me about 10 times paging back and forth within the four pages before I could NAIL THAT SUCKA.

Just for the record, my votes up
La Mulana (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=93001822&searchtext=) - Because it looks polished. I wanted it on Wii years ago but it never materialized.
Mecho Wars: Desert Ashes (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92994221&searchtext=) - Because the first Mecho Wars was a bargain bin title (bought mine for $1 on GamersGate) that captured a lot of what was good about Advance Wars on GBA and NDS.
Tales of Illyria (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92964311&searchtext=) - Being advertised as an RPG medieval take on Oregon Trail. Right on, ok.
Children of Liberty (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92922065&searchtext=) - 2.5D stealth platformer with animations evocative of Aladdin on Sega Genesis / Mega Drive.
Saturday Morning RPG (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92921217&searchtext=) - Amusing enough concept. Hope that works in execution.
Project Giana (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92852223&searchtext=) - Can't get enough platformers, no sirreebob
WazHack (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92915872&searchtext=) - side scrolling roguelike with amusing bits. Played some on Android. Had a lot of fun with poisoned water.


My vote down:
DLC Quest (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92911011&searchtext=) - had potential, but turned out as a limp, short experience. Had it from Indie Royale. Game has no depth. A few joyful moments at the start and precious nothing else. Might as well sell us 'You Have to Burn the Rope."

soldant
31-08-2012, 06:12 AM
Just when you thought Steam couldn't get any uglier...
Clicking on that image gives you this...
Gross.
Which is surprising... why? Then again, if that stupid Unemployment Quest, which was just stock RPG Maker VX assets with a crap storyline tacked on can get through Kickstarter, why not this?

Of course there's going to be a load of crap. Every man and his dog (or 13 year old kid and Game Maker) will be submitting their stuff.

internetonsetadd
31-08-2012, 06:21 AM
Re: The Fall(en)

There's a time and place for brief art games on any topic. Steam ain't one of them.

Steam Greenlight: Come sift through our garbage.

baby snot
31-08-2012, 06:25 AM
Sorry guys. Editing second image for clarification. I was not talking about the specific game. I was talking about the use of frames...

RobF
31-08-2012, 06:26 AM
So, yeah, I'm doing this. (Gratuitous link (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92915431)).

I'm not even sure why as it doesn't bother me if I'm on Steam or not as I'm not exactly in this to make money. However, I guess part of me thought that if nothing else, it's worth trying just to see what does and does not work about Greenlight for me. If I can get on Steam at the end of it, that's even better but I'm not going to cry if it doesn't happen. I do OK as is.

And erm, yeah. Thoughts from the other end.

Submissions are nice. They're quick, easy and fairly undemanding. Formatting is a pain in the tits though. Valve also strip links out so it does make punting traffic around elsewhere more difficult. As there's no ModDB style news/updates segment for you to use, keeping a running commentary is messy and there's no reasonable way to link to an external site to do it there. Awkward.

I'm still not sure what purpose thumbs down actually serve. Surely if you don't want a game on Steam, the easiest way is to ignore it and it let it die of its own accord? But I dunno, being downrated doesn't bother me so much but it seems like a negative step where one isn't actually needed. Also having a thumbs down on collections seems well, why do that?

The Steam Community is very much what you make of it. It's dead, dead easy to pick out and point at the worst examples because it's Spufageddon but that's not fair. There's a lot of very enthusiastic and overall very nice people on there. They're not all mental loonbuckets who want CODBLOPS4000 on there, just that the discussions tab is obviously kind of a draw for those sort of people. That's easy to ignore though, just don't open the discussion tab.

Comment moderation is good! Obviously it's open to massive abuse from page owners but when within 30 seconds there's people dropping link spam having a quick and clean way to remove that is good. Also, I don't see why anyone should tolerate openly abusive comments. That said, if you delete a comment just because it's negative, you're probably a dick.

The amount needed to automatically shift into pending is obscenely high for most indies I'd imagine. I've got what I'd consider to be a reasonable profile and a fair few votes for the tiny niche games that I make and I've got no chance of making that number I don't think. But we'll see when I release in a few weeks how that differs. Having somewhere you can point to when people say "will these games be on Steam?" and you can go "well, if you vote for them, maybe..." can't not be handy but yeah, large numbers. Very large.

I'm still not sure how I feel about turning submissions into Valve's Got Talent despite all this. It being the sole route is still something I'm not entirely comfortable with but it's there now and the other route is closed so... but it does have people thinking "fuck it, you know, I will throw that out there" and I don't see that as a bad thing. Maybe throwing the game out there will bottle the lightning for a moment for the right game at the right time and that wouldn't or couldn't happen elsewhere?

Discovery is ridiculously shit. Given storefront wise, Steam does so well at this, I'm not sure how they've managed to make a complete munt of it on the community side. Sorting is guff, the shuffling makes it impossible to browse and sorting by rated/unrated very quickly becomes unmanageable. I'm trying to maintain a list of other projects I like and would recommend and that's getting tough. I can't imagine how tits up it is for a casual browse.

So overall, mainly positive with a cloudy outlook.

internetonsetadd
31-08-2012, 06:39 AM
Sorry guys. Editing second image for clarification. I was not talking about the specific game. I was talking about the use of frames...

I knew what you were talking about, but what caught my attention in your red circle was a free five-minute art game on suicide--submitted to Steam. ;)

RobF
31-08-2012, 07:16 AM
I'm sure that's the first thing people are looking to add to their Steam library. What could possibly go wrong? :D

sk2k
31-08-2012, 07:42 AM
Greenlight is the horror! Who at Valve come up with the categories? Where is "fps", "platformer", "puzzle", etc. ? Gaaah!!!

PeteC
31-08-2012, 08:03 AM
Is there a way to actually search for games by name? If there is I can't figure it out. Seems a strange omission.

Anyway, only up voted Gear Up and Slingshot Racing, the latter merely because it reminds me of Micro Machines from way back when. I'll get around to voting for a few more like RobF's game later on. There is some interesting stuff on there amongst all the shite.

gravity_spoon
31-08-2012, 10:00 AM
Voted for Project Giana, Akaneiro: Demon Hunters (from Spicy Horse/American McGee), A walk in the dark and Towns.

soldant
31-08-2012, 10:56 AM
I'm still not sure what purpose thumbs down actually serve. Surely if you don't want a game on Steam, the easiest way is to ignore it and it let it die of its own accord?
Obscurity is a bit different to dislike though. There are plenty of things that I ignore not because I don't like them, but because they just don't interest me. There are plenty of projects that I would give the thumbs down to because I don't believe they should be on Steam at all, and should be removed. Things like "OMG I WANTS TEH DUNGEOAN KAEPER ON TEH STREAMS VALV Y U NO DO EETT EP3 PLZ" deserve a thumbs down.

pakoito
31-08-2012, 11:20 AM
Things like "OMG I WANTS TEH DUNGEOAN KAEPER ON TEH STREAMS VALV Y U NO DO EETT EP3 PLZ" deserve a thumbs down.No, they deserve a Report.

Thumbs down only for Project Zomboid.

soldant
31-08-2012, 11:51 AM
No, they deserve a Report.

Thumbs down only for Project Zomboid.
"Y RU VOET DWN PROJEACT ZUMBID U HATER"

"I do believe you are an unsophisticated, heartless bastard. It wasn't their fault that they didn't keep proper backups! It was thieves! I am better than you."

Okay yeah fair point, but still not sure why you'd vote down P:Z. I'm not their fans either, but I can't see why it shouldn't be on Steam. Except for anti-monopolistic reasons of course.

johnki
31-08-2012, 12:35 PM
Alright, so I tried out It's a Wipe! It's a really cool idea, but it doesn't have the depth to back it up quite yet. But it is a very cool idea, and a manageable management game, at that. I ended up leaving some suggestions for the developer, and hope maybe he'll work on a few of the things I mentioned.

Personally, I think the battles part is fine. As a guild management game, only so much of the focus should be battles. It's the relationships with you and your guild members that need worked on, and the activities that should affect said relationships are nearly non-existent.

And yet, as a game that could be improved and end up on Steam one day, I upvoted it. The developer said he planned to keep working on it, the way one would keep working on an MMO, so it's got potential. It just hasn't quite gotten there yet.

Unaco
31-08-2012, 12:46 PM
This is brilliant... mainly because I've found out that this thing (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92962136&searchtext=) actually exists. In fact, the entire catalogue of LayerNet Simulator games is getting a Thumbs Up from me, and I'm following them... just for the hell of it.

Meanwhile, every other project mentioned in here is getting a thumbs down, because I've got a hole in my (left) sock and I want to take that out on others. So there.

Rauten
31-08-2012, 02:03 PM
This is brilliant... mainly because I've found out that this thing (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92962136&searchtext=) actually exists. In fact, the entire catalogue of LayerNet Simulator games is getting a Thumbs Up from me, and I'm following them... just for the hell of it.

You just want to watch the world burn, don't you.

So far I've voted for Project Giana, Towns, Project Zomboid, Will Fight For Food and 3079.

ColOfNature
31-08-2012, 02:21 PM
Is there a way to actually search for games by name? If there is I can't figure it out. Seems a strange omission.

It's on the Greenlight front page (http://steamcommunity.com/greenlight/) at the right just above the "Browse by" box.

Don't know why any bugger'd care but these is my picks so far (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92989772).

Firkragg
31-08-2012, 02:26 PM
Boy am I glad I jumped right in at the start before all the crap came. Trying to sift through (looks through greenlight tab) up to 19 pages now (must have been 5-6 last I looked) is a pain beyond comprehension.

My list so far:
Blockade Runner
Folk Tale (caught my eye, what can I say?)
Salvation Prophecy
Kinetic Void
Steam Marines
Project Zomboid
Octodad
AirBuccaneers
Dream
And my personal favorite:
>>>>- Call of Cthulhu: The Wasted Land -<<<<

TechnicalBen
31-08-2012, 02:43 PM
Cast my first vote for Kinetic Void (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92922929) (Freelancer-like space sim utilizing procedural generation; successful Kickstarter).

And, uh, Wizardry 8. That can't be legit. Surely it would just come to Steam through regular channels (if it weren't out in limbo land).


Same here. I'll vote in (may have already) dinorun. But navigating the list is impossible both because of Steams/Valves horrid layout and the list jumping about randomly. :/

internetonsetadd
31-08-2012, 02:48 PM
Malevolence (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=93060707).

thegooseking
31-08-2012, 04:31 PM
I'm still not sure what purpose thumbs down actually serve. Surely if you don't want a game on Steam, the easiest way is to ignore it and it let it die of its own accord? But I dunno, being downrated doesn't bother me so much but it seems like a negative step where one isn't actually needed. Also having a thumbs down on collections seems well, why do that?


Well, if you look at it this way, Valve is essentially trying to get a ballpark of the market size of the game. People who vote a game up have a certain likelihood of buying it if it's released. People who vote a game down are unlikely to buy it. But people who don't vote at all are going to be somewhere in the middle. If there are a lot more upvotes than downvotes, people who don't vote are going to be more likely to buy it, while if there are a lot more downvotes than upvotes, people who don't vote are going to be less likely to buy it. It's very hard to tell how likely people who don't vote are going to be to buy it if you only have upvotes. Having both upvotes and downvotes gives Valve a lot more information for estimating the market size, which is ultimately what their decision to stock the game or not is based on.

But, if that's the case, perhaps Valve needs to be clearer on what upvotes and downvotes mean.

TechnicalBen
31-08-2012, 06:09 PM
I guess it's to wean out the offensive or random applications with downvotes. The metric used for getting through is only upvotes as far as I can see.

Scumbag
31-08-2012, 08:52 PM
No Streetsweeper simulator
This idea can burn

Just done some hunting about. Noticing a lot of weird pornographic VNs appearing. Oh valve what have you done?

johnki
31-08-2012, 09:05 PM
Am I the only one that swears they upvoted game X just to see it again later?

Unaco
31-08-2012, 09:14 PM
Am I the only one that swears they upvoted game X just to see it again later?

I'm hoping no one but me (and someone looking over my shoulder) can see what games I've voted for. I'm hoping my love for Road Works Simulator can remain my own.

Also... I just saw Battlefield 3 on there (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=93157157&searchtext=).

I hope all the people putting up those sorts of games know about...

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-08-31-valve-bans-steam-users-creating-fake-greenlight-projects



Just done some hunting about. Noticing a lot of weird pornographic VNs appearing. Oh valve what have you done?

One I saw yesterday disappeared pretty quickly... but I think that was down to it having boobies in the screenshots (even if they were pixelated) and a naked man (nothing visible). I dunno what sort of ground they're going to be on with those sorts of games... I'm a believer that, if people want to float their boat that way, they should be allowed to. It isn't my thing, but each to their own. We seem to accept gratuitous violence with nary a batting of our eyes, yet when anything approaching the erotic appears in games, we tend to have conniptions.

Feldspar
31-08-2012, 09:27 PM
I upvoted Legend of the Knightwasher, it's been one of those days and I was happy just to see someone on the same wavelength in what looked like an unstoppable tide of shit.

I'm sure there are some absolute gems in there, and hopefully the cream will rise to the top eventually, but as it is, at the moment Greenlight is a mess and turds also float.

RobF
31-08-2012, 09:57 PM
Well, if you look at it this way, Valve is essentially trying to get a ballpark of the market size of the game. People who vote a game up have a certain likelihood of buying it if it's released. People who vote a game down are unlikely to buy it. But people who don't vote at all are going to be somewhere in the middle. If there are a lot more upvotes than downvotes, people who don't vote are going to be more likely to buy it, while if there are a lot more downvotes than upvotes, people who don't vote are going to be less likely to buy it. It's very hard to tell how likely people who don't vote are going to be to buy it if you only have upvotes. Having both upvotes and downvotes gives Valve a lot more information for estimating the market size, which is ultimately what their decision to stock the game or not is based on.

But, if that's the case, perhaps Valve needs to be clearer on what upvotes and downvotes mean.

I've read that 4 times now and I'm still completely confused :D

As a store owner, why would I care how many people won't buy the game (or downrate a game?), I'm interested in how many people -will- buy the game and those alone, surely?

ColOfNature
31-08-2012, 10:14 PM
I suppose he means that if more people downvote than upvote then you can extrapolate to more of the population disliking the game than if the voting went the other way. Not sure if it would actually work out like that, but it's all grist to Valve's data-mill.

deano2099
31-08-2012, 10:17 PM
To be fair this is Steam, so it should have three voting buttons:

Will buy
Will never buy
Wait for the sale

AlexClockwork
31-08-2012, 10:50 PM
I've read that 4 times now and I'm still completely confused :D

As a store owner, why would I care how many people won't buy the game (or downrate a game?), I'm interested in how many people -will- buy the game and those alone, surely?

OK, but some of the people that don't upvote it will probably also buy the game, so by adding downvotes you can get a more accurate count of how many of those are going to buy the game. 1000 votes might have more buys than 1500 votes and 500 downvotes. (Just an example.)

RobF
31-08-2012, 11:32 PM
Right, OK. But there's a big difference in drawing conclusions from upvotes and downvotes which is where the problem lies for me.

If you RATE UP it means:

1. I want this on Steam

If you RATE DOWN, it means:

1. I don't want this on Steam.
2. I'm just trying to shift this off my list so I don't have to look at it again.
3. I'm a malicious bastard.
4. Maybe someday in the future but not now.
5. I hate the developer, he smells of wee and he told me to choke on my own dick or something.
6. It was funny lol.

Or many, many other things. It's that you can't draw any meaningful conclusions from just a thumbs down that makes it such a big problem. It needs to be more granular.

soldant
01-09-2012, 01:18 AM
Voted up Kinetic Void, because it's the only project I regret not Kickstarting... making it the ONLY project I never Kickstarted. Chances are I'll buy it on release though.

Downvoted two games that were just using stock RPG Maker assets and didn't actually seem to do anything special except hope for money, downvoted Postal 2 (even though it was official) and a bunch of other commercial games submitted by the community because apparently that's all that's required to get any game on Steam.

ColOfNature
01-09-2012, 02:43 AM
I really like Flowstorm (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92912207). It's far from original but it's simple, compulsive fun and I really want to play with the level editor shown off in the video. (Top tip: you can give a fake email to play the in-browser version.)

alms
01-09-2012, 03:17 AM
To be fair this is Steam, so it should have three voting buttons:

Will buy
Will never buy
Wait for the sale

4. "Have it already and want a free Steam key from the dev".

internetonsetadd
01-09-2012, 05:15 AM
I'm not a fan of the down vote feature at all. If a hundred people up vote and fifty people down vote, the disinterest of the latter doesn't cancel out the interest of any of the former. A hundred people still (ostensibly) want to buy the game.

I imagine it's a lot more work to read and comprehend a game's description--especially innovative/experimental/niche titles with gameplay not immediately apparent to the average Steam user--than it is to decide in five seconds that a game is shit. That makes me somewhat nervous for a lot of the indies I'm interested in.

I also find it a little odd that moderately sized successes on Kickstarter would need to jump through hoops to get on Steam. Origin gave them a warm, honeyed welcome.

Of course, I have no idea how votes are weighed, and the bar might be lower than I imagine. Down votes could simply be an irrelevant outlet for gamers who enjoy shitting on things more than they do partaking in the things they like, giving them something to do instead of flagging everything they think is suck.

trjp
01-09-2012, 05:36 AM
It's 5:31am and I can't sleep - so what better thing to do than create a spider to read all the Greenlight Games into a local database and have a meander through the stats!! :)

Steam is dead slow at handing-over the pages (probably deliberate) so it's taking a while (at least another 10 mins before I'll have a near-complete list) but there are some interesting things popping-up already - like the fact some games have an upload date WAY before the service went live (uploaded by Valve for testing perhaps?)

I'll post more juicy information - perhaps even a link to the raw data - if you're curious at all. Hell if you speak PHP (and a bit of jQuery for the output) I'll throw you the source and YOU can get IP banned by Steam too :)

p.s. I'm finally tired and it's only 'found' 500-odd of the 600-odd games - but here's something to go on until I wake-up and get coffee again :)

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1164739/greenlight.htm

Click the headings to sort - any questions??? Bueller??? Bueller???

biz
01-09-2012, 06:59 AM
Before, there were really good games that Valve simply passed on.

Greenlight seems like a safe way to make sure that your game will be accepted as long as you have enough fans.

soldant
01-09-2012, 07:38 AM
I'm not a fan of the down vote feature at all. If a hundred people up vote and fifty people down vote, the disinterest of the latter doesn't cancel out the interest of any of the former. A hundred people still (ostensibly) want to buy the game.
Some of the arguments against the downvote system seem to be bordering on "How could anybody not like this? If they don't like it they shouldn't be allowed to say so." Both up and down voting is open to widespread abuse and knee-jerk "NO GARFIELD IN DIS GAME -1/OMFG SAW 2 SCREENSHOTS LUKS AWSUM +1!" voting. Although the concerns of troll-voting are valid, that also applies to being able to like something.

Not every indie game is gold, and not everybody likes every game. I don't see a problem with letting people express that they don't like a game. If a game is popular, the upvotes will defeat the downvotes, and it'll be worth having on Steam. Not every indie game is going to be worth having on Steam. I don't think a system of "You either like it or you're not entitled to an opinion" is any more balanced than having the current system.


Before, there were really good games that Valve simply passed on.

Greenlight seems like a safe way to make sure that your game will be accepted as long as you have enough fans.
Which is open to all sorts of abuse. It's not even really fans, just 'likes' or 'attention' which can easily be manipulated.

MoLAoS
01-09-2012, 09:35 AM
Steam Greenlight is a hellhole.

Fucking morons voting down table top to computer war game ports because they think its a rip off of HOI. Because they are so fucking ignorant that they think HOI was the first wargame ever.

Letting the public vote on shit is always a disaster in the making. Maybe if you could only upvote it would be fine because idiots would have no effect on the proceedings.

soldant
01-09-2012, 09:55 AM
Steam Greenlight is a hellhole..
I think the far greater problem is "I want it on Steam, therefore everybody else wants it on Steam." Every single title, no matter how obscure, is getting posted. And this was always going to happen, you could see that coming from a mile off.

What, did people think this was going to be some sort of awesome new system where their favourite indie niche game was going to appear on Steam and make the developer incredibly rich? The popular stuff will get upvoted and will win, and 'popular' is not niche.

burningpet
01-09-2012, 11:03 AM
It's 5:31am and I can't sleep - so what better thing to do than create a spider to read all the Greenlight Games into a local database and have a meander through the stats!! :)

Steam is dead slow at handing-over the pages (probably deliberate) so it's taking a while (at least another 10 mins before I'll have a near-complete list) but there are some interesting things popping-up already - like the fact some games have an upload date WAY before the service went live (uploaded by Valve for testing perhaps?)

I'll post more juicy information - perhaps even a link to the raw data - if you're curious at all. Hell if you speak PHP (and a bit of jQuery for the output) I'll throw you the source and YOU can get IP banned by Steam too :)

p.s. I'm finally tired and it's only 'found' 500-odd of the 600-odd games - but here's something to go on until I wake-up and get coffee again :)

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1164739/greenlight.htm

Click the headings to sort - any questions??? Bueller??? Bueller???

Wow, thanks a lot for that! Towns is #4 place in the highest % and #5 in the most favourites, with about 100 favourites below project gianna, since then we surpassed project gianna by about 50 favourites so i guess we are also #4 in the highest number of favourites.

i just wish valve could also provide this data in real time.

Unaco
01-09-2012, 12:36 PM
Has it even been confirmed what effect Downvotes have? Could it be it's nothing other than adding to the person who downvoted list of games they've rated? That is, downvoting just gets it out of the way for them, but doesn't count against the upvotes.

sabrage
01-09-2012, 01:16 PM
+1 Giana, Routine, Gear Up, La-Mulana, Miasmata, Kinetic Void
-1 Afterfall Insanity Extended Edition, because of that stupid publicity stunt they tried to pull last year

Spengbab
01-09-2012, 01:21 PM
Could you guys link the stuff youre voting on? Makes it easier to add votes by not having to sift through anime game after anime game (All made in RPG Maker).

The JG Man
01-09-2012, 02:27 PM
The other amusing factor is that you're likely to rate and favourite a game your friend has voted on because the sorting list for those is far better than the main scrolling pages. Taken further if you have similar tastes to your friends.

As it stands, I can't be bothered to sift through the pages when one page isn't the same due to randomisation, which is a monumentally stupid decision.

trjp
01-09-2012, 02:43 PM
They've been tinkering with this thing...

Last night, Project Zomboid had 11% of it's "perc_rating" - today it only has 6%!!

I'll update my stuff a bit later and leave the old sheet around for comparison perhaps - but they're fiddling with stuff for sure...

saiko017
01-09-2012, 02:45 PM
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=93050217
Hopefully this will save you guys the time it took me to find them all. This is a list of all my recommendations on greenlight... I tend to like a very very large variety of games XD so there should be something here for everyone. Please rate up if you like :p
If there is any games you guys like that is not in the list, feel free to comment leaving me your recommendations! I would love to check them out!

pakoito
01-09-2012, 03:06 PM
First post, thread invasion, weird font color. Looks like a keeper.

johnki
01-09-2012, 03:19 PM
They've been tinkering with this thing...

Last night, Project Zomboid had 11% of it's "perc_rating" - today it only has 6%!!

I'll update my stuff a bit later and leave the old sheet around for comparison perhaps - but they're fiddling with stuff for sure...
Yeah, but making it twice as hard? Already? That's ridiculous. But maybe they're trying to make it unattainable. :/

soldant
01-09-2012, 03:25 PM
Yeah, but making it twice as hard? Already? That's ridiculous. But maybe they're trying to make it unattainable. :/
Why would they do that? If it's a game that's likely to sell well, they're likely to pick it up because it's good for Valve. Particularly if it hasn't been released yet and it becomes a Steam exclusive, because Valve are clearly intent on owning the market when it comes to digital distribution. It's a clever way to whip the community into a frenzy though to make it look nice and open and get them to fight it out like they're fighting for the iron throne, but Valve will pick any product that's likely to make them money in turn. They're still the gatekeepers of the Steam walled garden, whatever the community says. They just choose to listen to us. Sometimes.

That said I don't have an issue with the bar being set quite high. It might help ensure only the top projects (or the most heavily spammed unfortunately) will make it up for consideration. Simple submission with a couple of votes shouldn't guarantee acceptance, the bar should be high and it should be difficult to get to. Steam isn't a charity.

johnki
01-09-2012, 03:28 PM
Oh, and The Desolate Hope looks nice, but after seeing everywhere say it's a freeware game except the main site which says that it's only available in demo form, I'm confused. Is it a demo or isn't it? Was something removed recently?

trjp
01-09-2012, 03:43 PM
PZ is back to 11% again - I think it's either a glitch or some sort of weird display error.

Certainly, tho, if Favourites are proportional to it's Success%, it will need 130,000 favourites to get to 100% - and it's gotten 11% of that from 140,000 'unique visitors' (so, in theory, 1.4MILLION people will have to visit it - that's a LOT of people!!)

I'll upload a revised list as soon as it's been grinded from their servers - if nothing else, you can sort it by "uploaded hours" to see the newest titles and avoid having to hack through the mess that is the actual site!!

p.s. most indies would DIE for 140,000 people looking at their shit I suspect - in total, my Android games have barely seen that sort of eyeball traffic in a YEAR - let alone 2-3 days :)

burningpet
01-09-2012, 04:03 PM
indie devs and just regular steam users are also dying to see real rankings, so having a greenlight projects tracker site that actually handle the sorting like you have but on a professionally designed website would bring you tons of traffic. it could also be used to just see new projects.

kicktraq comes to mind in that respect.

trjp
01-09-2012, 05:09 PM
"Professionally designed" is a bit beyond the remit of me and my midnight coding sessions, but I have something a bit nicer coming soon.

The real trick is spidering in the site in a timely fashion without getting IP banned or just generally wasting network traffic - that's something I'm refining right now - and then I need to automate it and the results publishing bit (easier).

trjp
01-09-2012, 06:15 PM
OK - I've updated the list with new submissions and some tweaks - and the output has a super-basic filtering idea (uncheck the attributes of games you care not 1 jot about and they disappear).

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1164739/greenlight.htm

Next-stop - making it look pretty - but first, food and dog walking...

johnki
01-09-2012, 06:25 PM
OK - I've updated the list with new submissions and some tweaks - and the output has a super-basic filtering idea (uncheck the attributes of games you care not 1 jot about and they disappear).

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1164739/greenlight.htm

Next-stop - making it look pretty - but first, food and dog walking...
Does it update automatically? If that starts going automatically (maybe when someone enters the page), that'd be awesome.

EDIT: Oh, and where's the source at? Kind of interested to know how it works.

RobF
01-09-2012, 06:37 PM
Has it even been confirmed what effect Downvotes have? Could it be it's nothing other than adding to the person who downvoted list of games they've rated? That is, downvoting just gets it out of the way for them, but doesn't count against the upvotes.

Up until the early hours, authors would see a pos/neg ratio on their games page. That's disappeared now.

The whole system is incredibly opaque though so it's hard to tell what on Earth Valve are up to.

trjp
01-09-2012, 06:49 PM
Does it update automatically? If that starts going automatically (maybe when someone enters the page), that'd be awesome.

EDIT: Oh, and where's the source at? Kind of interested to know how it works.

It takes a little over 2 seconds for Steam to provide 1 GreenLight 'game page' - which means updating all 660 (and climbing!!) games takes at least 20 mins - so it's not "live" updated.

New games are spidered fairly quickly tho (takes 2 secs per 30 games) so they should appear within an hour of them being posted (and there's not much to see before that anyway).

The page you see (on Dropbox) is just a static dump of the data which is updated automatically everytime the spider finishes it's work. The source I'd be happy to post but you have to promise not to laugh because I cobbled it together without much regard for performance or neatness. It's PHP using a MYSQL database so it needs a server with those things (PHP 5.2 with cURL).

johnki
01-09-2012, 07:07 PM
The page you see (on Dropbox) is just a static dump of the data which is updated automatically everytime the spider finishes it's work. The source I'd be happy to post but you have to promise not to laugh because I cobbled it together without much regard for performance or neatness. It's PHP using a MYSQL database so it needs a server with those things (PHP 5.2 with cURL).
Sure. If you'd rather just PM it to me, that's fine too. Just curious to see how it works.

trjp
01-09-2012, 07:17 PM
I'm just wrapping-up a few changes and I'll send the bits over!

johnki
01-09-2012, 07:53 PM
I'm just wrapping-up a few changes and I'll send the bits over!
Aight, I'll be waiting on it.

PeteC
01-09-2012, 07:57 PM
Just noticed Kenshi is on there.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92933311&searchtext=

I've upvoted it but honestly, I don't think it needs to go through Greenlight at all. I've a feeling it would get on Steam anyway.

Koobazaur
01-09-2012, 07:57 PM
One of the things that is confusing about Greenlight is the target developer audience - is it a service for "early in-dev" projects to gain recognition and support (ala Kickstarter) OR is it for nearly-finished products that are looking to sell on Steam. It's a mixed message right now - Valve seems to encourage the former, which is utterly contradictory to the end goal - getting your game on Steam. Getting a game on Steam should require showing off a mostly complete product, not an alpha stage tech demo. Not to mention that, if you even dare post placeholder art, you will probably get downvoted to all hell.




The RPS article (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/08/31/steam-greenlight-discussed/)made me think of something, though




“We’re established indie devs with a strong background (having worked on titles like Thief and Deus Ex and our own Spider: The Secret of Bryce Manor)” says Tiger Style’s Randy Smith. “We made a custom professional video to demonstrate our game on PC, our game already exists and has heaps of glowing press quotes with a very strong metacritic rating, and yet we’re buried alongside flash game prototypes made by hobbyists. I’m glad hobbyists get to share their game ideas; the coolest promise of Greenlight is that it may help rising stars with awesome ideas get recognized. But at the moment, there are very few reliable means by which the higher quality material can rise to separate from the chaff.



Which got me thinking - isn't the whole point of Greenlight to not separate the established from the hobbiests but instead, equalize the playing field? I mean, the established Indie devs already have their own sites, Indie Bundles, IndieGoGos, Kickstarters and regular Steam sales. But what about the prospective indie devs who only just entering the field? They might not have fancy art times and complex tech demos to showcase, they might not have name recognition from previous titles, and they may not be marketing and SEO gurus... Greenlight could potentially be the one area when they have just as much chance of being discovered as "bigger" indie teams with dedicated marketing departments.


Otherwise, Greenlight is yet another Kickstarter/IndieGoGo/personal website, and it's back to online popularity contests dictating game's success.


But the obvious problem is what happens now - a flood of completely shitty games that are below even the "smaller indies" level and - quite frankly - probably never reach a state where they should ever charge money. I don't think there really is a solution to that; either you do pull some time into tech demos and marketing, or you wont get discovered. Greenlight, as noble as it is in theory, can't really work in practice...

johnki
01-09-2012, 07:58 PM
Just noticed Kenshi is on there.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92933311&searchtext=

I've upvoted it but honestly, I don't think it needs to go through Greenlight at all. I've a feeling it would get on Steam anyway.
Well, it would, probably. Except that they completely changed the submission process following the release of Greenlight.

http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/FAQ.php

EDIT: I'm absolutely shocked that UIG has to use Greenlight. Shocked.

PeteC
01-09-2012, 08:00 PM
Well, it would, probably. Except that they completely changed the submission process following the release of Greenlight.

http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/FAQ.php

Ah I see. Seems to be doing reasonably well, votes wise anyway.

burningpet
01-09-2012, 08:30 PM
I'm just wrapping-up a few changes and I'll send the bits over!

Seem like the data is wrong here. sometimes the stats are changing, and for some titles you got the right ones and for others you got the wrong ones.

trjp
01-09-2012, 08:33 PM
Seem like the data is wrong here. sometimes the stats are changing, and for some titles you got the right ones and for others you got the wrong ones.

Some stats change on the actual Steam pages - the perc_rating, for example, leaps around quite a bit for the higher-rated games (see my post earlier about Project Zomboid).

Otherwise, if you've spotted something wrong, let me know about it (details of the game specifically would help - there's 700 of them to check!!)

p.s. remember they don't update in real-time or anything like that -although they 'should' update at least once an hour or so.

TillEulenspiegel
01-09-2012, 08:37 PM
is it a service for "early in-dev" projects to gain recognition and support (ala Kickstarter) OR is it for nearly-finished products that are looking to sell on Steam.
Yes.

No reason it can't be both. I expect there will be many improvements to Greenlight in the coming months, aimed at serving both purposes. For example, in the original FAQ they mentioned that you would be able to link to a demo, which isn't quite true at the moment.

Placeholder art is an obvious no-no, but that's the case on Kickstarter too. Go commission some concept art if necessary and show that instead of screenshots, but don't use crap.

Wheelz
01-09-2012, 10:15 PM
I'm just wrapping-up a few changes and I'll send the bits over!

I'd hate to be a pain, but I'm also pretty interested in seeing your code for this.

trjp
01-09-2012, 10:41 PM
I'd hate to be a pain, but I'm also pretty interested in seeing your code for this.

You have PMs

It's running pretty much by itself now - it will be a while before all the gremlins are updated out of some entries but the data is prettier now...

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1164739/greenlight.htm

johnki
01-09-2012, 10:53 PM
You have PMs

It's running pretty much by itself now - it will be a while before all the gremlins are updated out of some entries but the data is prettier now...

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1164739/greenlight.htm
Given that Greenlight will probably eventually get filled to the very brim with games, the best option is probably to make sure it can run on its own indefinitely, save to a database, and leave a note that it may, in fact, have an "x amount of time" delay.

TillEulenspiegel
01-09-2012, 11:00 PM
Judging from the favorites, and assuming that there's a decent number of people who will vote up but not favorite, I'd make the very rough estimate that 1500 votes = 1%

"Routine" seems to be an outlier, though.

trjp
01-09-2012, 11:10 PM
Given that Greenlight will probably eventually get filled to the very brim with games, the best option is probably to make sure it can run on its own indefinitely, save to a database, and leave a note that it may, in fact, have an "x amount of time" delay.

A 'production' or 'always-on' solution is tricky because, whilst I have access to a range of hosting accounts, they will all kick-off about the lengthy runtimes of the spider - not to mention it's high cpu and memory use and the fact it looks like some sort of backdoor information crawler.

So it's running from my desktop instead - and thus will only update if that's switched-on (which is pretty much constantly).

johnki
01-09-2012, 11:14 PM
A 'production' or 'always-on' solution is tricky because, whilst I have access to a range of hosting accounts, they will all kick-off about the lengthy runtimes of the spider - not to mention it's high cpu and memory use and the fact it looks like some sort of backdoor information crawler.

So it's running from my desktop instead - and thus will only update if that's switched-on (which is pretty much constantly).
Gotcha. I suppose the same would be relevant for anyone not hosting out of home/office. Shame. Would be nice to join have a page on a website that you could visit for that without making the person that hosts it pay an arm and a leg JUST to host it.

On another note, how much bandwidth does it take up?

trjp
01-09-2012, 11:59 PM
Gotcha. I suppose the same would be relevant for anyone not hosting out of home/office. Shame. Would be nice to join have a page on a website that you could visit for that without making the person that hosts it pay an arm and a leg JUST to host it.

On another note, how much bandwidth does it take up?

Nothing really, it's only reading the sourcecode of pages from Steam (no images) and the data people download is fairly compact.

The killer issue is that it takes upto 30 minutes to process the site - and no-one likes jobs running on webservers for 30 mins (my main host has a 90 sec auto-kickoff!!). If you had your own fully virtualised (or actual) server, you could work around it, but I don't have access to anything like that...

I suspect, once the initial fun and games has worn-off, that people will be happy with an update for new games every 1-2 hours and an update for stats on all games every 4-6 hours tho. Hell I really only wrote it to save me crawling through looking for new releases - you can sort that list to see what's appeared most recently and that's all I really set-out to do :)

It's not like a Steam Deal Finder or anything like that - no-one is going to pay commission for links so it's not a money-earner in that way and thus no-one is going to underwrite a high server cost for it really!?

It is interesting to see everything at a glance tho - puts everything into better perspective that the (I suspect deliberate) chaotic mess than is the actual site.

johnki
02-09-2012, 12:03 AM
It's not like a Steam Deal Finder or anything like that - no-one is going to pay commission for links so it's not a money-earner in that way and thus no-one is going to underwrite a high server cost for it really!?

It is interesting to see everything at a glance tho - puts everything into better perspective that the (I suspect deliberate) chaotic mess than is the actual site.
Yeah, I only meant that since Steam doesn't offer such tools, it would be nice to know that someone does and that you can access it at any point.

trjp
02-09-2012, 12:06 AM
Oh - it also means I get to see a lot of the retarded stuff people post - even the stuff which disappears really fast as "Mass Effect the Gay Version" just did.

A fragment to today's "sorely missed" includes

Pacman 2.0
Sonic Heroes
Mafia 2 Multiplayer (at least twice)
Minecraft
Greenlight Simulator (yes, it was a random image voting game)
Aliens versus Predator 2 (!?)
SWAT 4
Torture With Player Juan
Manly tears presents le bear face
BABYSITTING CREAM: LEGEND CONTINUES
League of legends (many many times)
Angry Birds
RAGEFACE 3D: THE WAR OF THE ANCIENTS (an RPS title if I ever heard one)
AFRICAN AMERICAN MAN FIGHTING RACISM (a follow-up to the earlier removed Big Nigs Over the Border Racing!?)
Counter jews re upload (!!)
I'm Swimming Around In A Vagina (it'll be back as 'Sperm Racer' I guess)
Tony Hawks Pro Skater 4
3D Unity (erm!?)

and many more

ColOfNature
02-09-2012, 12:11 AM
How are you making sure you've got everything? Are you just checking the randomised list for anything not in your database or is there some way to specify the order you get results from Steam?

johnki
02-09-2012, 12:13 AM
-snip-
I don't remember what they called it, but someone posted a picture of Osama Bin Laden and the twin towers falling and probably thought it was funny.

Those people seriously need to be banned for life. It's not funny, just offensive. It's still a pretty sore spot for the US.

trjp
02-09-2012, 12:14 AM
How are you making sure you've got everything? Are you just checking the randomised list for anything not in your database or is there some way to specify the order you get results from Steam?

I just read every page and check the Game IDs against what I've already got. Every pass flags-up games which have gone AWOL - it does this every 30 mins or so.

It's worth noting that the order is truly random - the same game can easily appear on EVERY page - so it can take a few passes to see every new game.

The games themselves I only re-query every hour - seems more than often enough to me, tho I need to decide on a way of permanently removing 'dead' games (it seems they reuse codes!!)

If they had Alpha/Release Date sorting, I'd not have bothered writing this at-all - hopefully indies will get a better idea of their chances this way (and chancers will get a better idea of what else to waste their time with).

That might include me!!

The JG Man
02-09-2012, 12:28 AM
Sonic Heroes

Why, to inflict pain on others? Hey guys, we got a sadist over here!


Greenlight Simulator (yes, it was a random image voting game)

That's...actually pretty amusing.

johnki
02-09-2012, 12:32 AM
The games themselves I only re-query every hour - seems more than often enough to me, tho I need to decide on a way of permanently removing 'dead' games (it seems they reuse codes!!)Just completely remove it from the database. When it queries again, it should replace it and the reused key shouldn't even be noticed. At least, that's the way I'd imagine it should work.

deano2099
02-09-2012, 12:42 AM
I'm all for this but not at all happy with it being the only way to get on Steam. I don't want the masses choosing what games go on there. It's kinda horrid.

soldant
02-09-2012, 01:23 AM
Which got me thinking - isn't the whole point of Greenlight to not separate the established from the hobbiests but instead, equalize the playing field?
No, it's supposed to be about getting games you'd like to see on Steam actually on Steam. It should be used by indies to submit their game. But as you've noted people are submitting anything and everything in the hope that it'll pass, whether it's a well polished indie title that deserves to be on Steam, a commercial game like Battlefield 3, or their stupid RPG Maker title they made in about 20 minutes hoping to get money.

I don't think Greenlight is supposed to be a sort of funding system like Kickstarter. I think it's supposed to be about games that are, or almost, ready for release, with the idea that selling them through Steam will gain them exposure and possibly more sales. I can't see Valve tossing money at all these little studios... if Valve wants a game idea, they just buy it out and hire the people as staff.

johnki
02-09-2012, 01:27 AM
...or their stupid RPG Maker title they made in about 20 minutes hoping to get money.
To be fair (http://aldorlea.org), not all RPG Maker games are stupid (http://amaranthia.com) (there are two links in that sentence).

There are even some good Ren'py games (http://hanakogames.com/).

Hell, there are (http://www.spelunkyworld.com/original.html) even good (http://studioeres.com/immortal/) Game Maker (http://cavemancraig.paraboxgames.com/main.php) games (http://www.remar.se/daniel/iji.php) (a few links in there).

sabrage
02-09-2012, 01:38 AM
I'm all for this but not at all happy with it being the only way to get on Steam. I don't want the masses choosing what games go on there. It's kinda horrid.
Is this entirely supplanting the old method of game approval? I can't see Call of Duty 15 having to go through Greenlight.

gundato
02-09-2012, 01:41 AM
Greenlight serves the exact same purpose as the GoG Wishlist.

It makes the users think Valve/GoG gives a rat's ass about them while simultaneously gauging interest in possible titles.

If Valve doesn't want a game on there, it doesn't matter how many votes it gets. If Valve thinks it is the next Minecraft, they'll get in touch with the devs in a heartbeat.

johnki
02-09-2012, 01:45 AM
It makes the users think Valve/GoG gives a rat's ass about them while simultaneously gauging interest in possible titles.

GOG is a much different story. To my understanding, GOG works their asses off to try and get wishlisted games with a high number of votes on GOG. Just because licensing and/or technical issues they don't talk about get in their way doesn't mean they aren't trying.

Greenlight, however, scares me. Until we see what the pending process is like, for all we know, these games could get their massive amount of votes, have the devs' hearts skip a beat, only to be shot down for what seems like no reason mid-pending process.

RobF
02-09-2012, 03:31 AM
Is this entirely supplanting the old method of game approval? I can't see Call of Duty 15 having to go through Greenlight.

Unless you're going through a big publisher then yes, it does entirely. It's the one part of Greenlight that sits truly uncomfortably with me.

trjp
02-09-2012, 04:08 AM
Unless you're going through a big publisher then yes, it does entirely. It's the one part of Greenlight that sits truly uncomfortably with me.

I suspect they'll return to the old approval system at some point (soonish) for certain types of games (for developers they've already working with at least).

Greenlight is fine for some games but proper studios who have marketing plans and advertising and budgets will NOT want to go through a public cattle-market voting system every time - spending a fortune to get voted and ANOTHER one to sell the damned thing.

Valve should realise that there is a distinct danger in listening to your customers too much - the assumption is that they know what they want but this is nonsense. Ford once spent a fortune asking their customers what they wanted from a new Ford Escort, they listened and made the Mk4, the worst car they've ever made...

Sometimes you have to show people things they don't know they want - if you don't do that, you'll pretty quickly find yourself out of business.

soldant
02-09-2012, 04:34 AM
To be fair (http://aldorlea.org), not all RPG Maker games are stupid (http://amaranthia.com) (there are two links in that sentence).

There are even some good Ren'py games (http://hanakogames.com/).

Hell, there are (http://www.spelunkyworld.com/original.html) even good (http://studioeres.com/immortal/) Game Maker (http://cavemancraig.paraboxgames.com/main.php) games (http://www.remar.se/daniel/iji.php) (a few links in there).
To be fair, none of those are likely to appear on Steam. And the ones which are any good don't make copious use of the stock assets to the point where you can't differentiate between games. Unemployment Quest is an example of one of the worst offenders here, particularly when the stock assets are completely incompatible with the game's subject matter. Plus that dude got a successful Kickstarter.

Koobazaur
02-09-2012, 05:53 AM
No, it's supposed to be about getting games you'd like to see on Steam actually on Steam. It should be used by indies to submit their game. But as you've noted people are submitting anything and everything in the hope that it'll pass, whether it's a well polished indie title that deserves to be on Steam, a commercial game like Battlefield 3, or their stupid RPG Maker title they made in about 20 minutes hoping to get money.


See that's where the confusion lies - someone on another forum basically said the opposite, and Greenlight doesn't really clarify. It's a bit schizophrenic - it encourages early concepts/prototypes, but the end goal of getting a game on steam requires a polished and nearly finished product. Hmmm

RobF
02-09-2012, 06:31 AM
The current form of Greenlight is for games that can already demonstrate they have something playable (not necessarily available to the public, obviously) and would be ready to throw onto Steam in fairly rapid order. From what I've heard and know, this won't always be the case and likely won't entirely be the case for long either. It will evolve into something more but how that happens will no doubt be shaped by how parts of what they've got now perform and the feedback they receive (both in metrics and in writing).

So yeah, right now, it's playable stuff but that will change in fairly rapid order.

And it's good that people from all walks are submitting. It means that the process is frictionless enough to not be scary. And that's ok. It's then in the hands of the developer to motivate people to vote things up but the intention is to invite hobbyists and professionals into the fray to rally and work with the community.

Valve have faith that the community will be able to work out what is guff and what isn't and vote up accordingly. And they're right. They will. Because unlike XBLIG, there's no financial cost involved in the discovery process. It's flawed but there's a lot of smart thinking behind it.

@trjp

It was understood that developers with an existing relationship wouldn't have to go through Greenlight. I'm not sure why this changed some time before release. Likely for reasons of fairness but I think it's going to throw up an interesting set of problems (is that polite?) when the time comes for certain developers to take part.

Like you say, there'll be those who won't want to be fucked with this sort of thing which may cause us to lose out on games if Steam won't bend and there'll also be a number who just snap their fingers after launch and up the votes go because they've had a successful 360 game prior or something. At which point, it'd query why have them pushed through Greenlight if they're a dead cert.

However! There's a part of me that likes that there isn't any further tiers involved aside from Big Pub/Little Pub. Dividing the content up further so you end up with indies/super indies isn't healthy in the long run.

Fun times, anyway.

sk2k
02-09-2012, 08:17 AM
Greenlight is broken for me. :( The "Customized list of games to rate" is empty. The "Games you've rated" list shows me that i have not rated any games. Only the "All Games" list works.

soldant
02-09-2012, 09:01 AM
Valve have faith that the community will be able to work out what is guff and what isn't and vote up accordingly. And they're right. They will. Because unlike XBLIG, there's no financial cost involved in the discovery process. It's flawed but there's a lot of smart thinking behind it.
That's the problem. The community is terrible. This will not lead to some sort of democratic indie renaissance. The Steam Community is such a melting pot of different types of gamers that consensus will be superficial. Who dares hype is he who wins. Which is why I still hope that Valve remain as the gatekeepers.

MoLAoS
02-09-2012, 10:49 AM
You will never see a wargame on steam from greenlight because steam users will claim its a rip off of Hearts of Iron, because they don't know anything about game genres or game history. Similarly for several other genres that are relatively niche.

The idea that the public will ferret out quality is patently ridiculous. Or to phrase it in a way that some people prefer, the things that the general public, in this case mainstream gamers, like, are not the things that indies or posters on the wargamer or RPS really want to see made available.

Gamers, in the sense that gaming is often their primary, or at least close, identity, as opposed to the more generic, people who happen to play computer games, are not interested in the same things as mainstream people.

Hipster and retro gamers will not be happy with greenlight. I replaced indie with those words for specificity.
Grognards will not be happy with greenlight.
Citybuilder fans will not be happy with greenlight.
Hardcore TBS strategy gamers will not be happy with greenlight.

No niche/genre gamers will be happy with greenlight. Its not some niche/genre revolution. It will only help steam sort through extra thousands of crappy mainstream rpg clones and fps clones and maybe some casual gamer type games.

RobF
02-09-2012, 10:52 AM
Yes, they absolutely want people to learn to hype their game though. That's part of the principle behind Greenlight, teaching people and encouraging people to build and include communities around their game. It's very, very much intended to be a hype mechanism as much as it is a filtering method for the greenlight process.

I don't think this is a sensible ask for a lot of developers but it is what it is.

burningpet
02-09-2012, 01:33 PM
Hipster and retro gamers will not be happy with greenlight. I replaced indie with those words for specificity.
Grognards will not be happy with greenlight.
Citybuilder fans will not be happy with greenlight.

No niche/genre gamers will be happy with greenlight. Its not some niche/genre revolution. It will only help steam sort through extra thousands of crappy mainstream rpg clones and fps clones and maybe some casual gamer type games.

project zomboid, a 2d pixel isometric open world game, is 1 or 2, depends what stats you are looking at. mc pixel, a retro point and click is somewhere in the top 10, octodad is among the top ones as well. the only genre i don't see in the top 10 are wargames, but that doesn't mean a fresh and interesting one will not succeed there.

soldant
02-09-2012, 02:06 PM
project zomboid, a 2d pixel isometric open world game, is 1 or 2, depends what stats you are looking at.
But it's already quite a popular game anyway, especially given that it has zombies, which are like the thing at the moment.

deano2099
02-09-2012, 02:50 PM
To be fair, none of those are likely to appear on Steam. And the ones which are any good don't make copious use of the stock assets to the point where you can't differentiate between games. Unemployment Quest is an example of one of the worst offenders here, particularly when the stock assets are completely incompatible with the game's subject matter. Plus that dude got a successful Kickstarter.

Magical Diary: Horse Hall is already on there. And To The Moon is already announced as forthcoming.

I doubt Analogue would have got through the Greenlight process as it's so niche. But then, I doubt Portal would have got through the Greenlight process either.

soldant
02-09-2012, 02:54 PM
Magical Diary: Horse Hall is already on there. And To The Moon is already announced as forthcoming.

I doubt Analogue would have got through the Greenlight process as it's so niche. But then, I doubt Portal would have got through the Greenlight process either.
Okay fair point, but those titles have a significant amount of effort invested in them. The majority of the titles on the linked sites do not. Hell a large bulk of them are just using standard assets without any regard for whether it fits the game or not. Even Super Columbine Massacre RPG had more effort than that.

trjp
02-09-2012, 03:24 PM
Excellent point about Portal - there's not a chance in hell it would have Greenlighted... ;)

Also, someone just uploaded a game which is announced, in it's title no less, as "PRE-DEVELOPMENT COMPLETED".

Pre Development is "the idea I had in the bath this morning", basically. No-one does anything meaningful without a developer :)

trjp
02-09-2012, 03:25 PM
But it's already quite a popular game anyway, especially given that it has zombies, which are like the thing at the moment.

I think people are just watching that one for it's next massive, self-induced, car-crash...

One of the developers WILL be eaten by a flesh-eating virus contracted from a dirty telephone - it's about the only thing they've not endured as yet??

burningpet
02-09-2012, 03:53 PM
But it's already quite a popular game anyway, especially given that it has zombies, which are like the thing at the moment.

Popular yes, now, but its still a niche. and it sure was a niche when the world first heard of it.

And come on, we both know zombies in the game doesn't magically make the game popular or good. no need to expand on that i believe.

If zomboid is not good enough for an example how its actually the niche games that rock the top of greenlight (except a few that managed to slip in), then i would be happy to provide other games, but i find it pointless. there are very few "mainstream" genres now days, and you mostly don't see games from those genres flooding the top spots in greenlight.

those who think that only the developers that are "spamming" or hard marketing their games, or the ones aiming for the largest common factor or the more vocal target market to attract the masses are those who succeed in greenlight, only lie to themselves.

Portal would have rocked the top charts in greenlight, just as it did at the sell charts. maybe they would have been forced to release a demo though, but non the less, it would have been right there at the top spots.

trjp
02-09-2012, 04:06 PM
Portal would have rocked the top charts in greenlight, just as it did at the sell charts. maybe they would have been forced to release a demo though, but non the less, it would have been right there at the top spots.

Completely disagree - when Portal arrived there had been no FPS puzzlers (that I can remember anyway) - people would have seen the graphics and said they were "plain" and "boring" and it would have struggled without not just a demo (a big ask for smaller developers) but also a lot of press attention.

GreenLight's pandering to the masses means that the real work isn't being done on or by GreenLight of course - developers have to whore themselves silly to get the sort of numbers it seems to need to get onto Steam (as I said earlier, it looks like you'll need WELL over a million unique visitors to get close to your 'pass' rating) - a MILLION people is a LOT of people.

In fact, I'd say expecting that level of attention is fucking bizarre - there are major publisher titles on Steam which probably haven't had that sort of traffic on the shop pages...

trjp
02-09-2012, 04:12 PM
Putting it another way - I'd say pretty much everything which has made more than 2-3% of the expected ratings should probably be on Steam - they've had over 50,000 people cast their eye over them, that's a shitload of traffic (some indies probably don't get 50,000 unique page hits in the life of a game!!)

Certainly, Valve should be looking at those games anyway - in fact I'd say they've been asleep if they've not already done so.

p.s. remember that the novelty of GL is probably already worn-off on people - it's entirely possible that newer games will NEVER see that sort of traffic...

johnki
02-09-2012, 04:23 PM
p.s. remember that the novelty of GL is probably already worn-off on people - it's entirely possible that newer games will NEVER see that sort of traffic...
Which sucks because even PZ has only gotten 14% of the required votes. I can only imagine the amount that are going to sit there and rot for eternity, pretty much.

pakoito
02-09-2012, 04:31 PM
The amount of votes needed is subject to changes. They released Greenlight to gather information for some time to choose the height of the bar. A 100k votes is just a landslide voting indicator, if they had set the bar too low a lot of games would have gotten in.

Just wait until novelty wears off, the voting pace settles and Valve gets the info to tweak the voting algorithm. Top rated games right now will get in for sure because some game has to be the first, soon ;)

trjp
02-09-2012, 04:50 PM
I've jollied up Greenlight 'Lite' to include slightly better filtering (may need another hour for the junk to disappear) and put in a couple of analytical columns...

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1164739/greenlight.htm

R/Vx1K - Rating per 1000 visitors
F/V - Favourites per visitor

It's interesting that some games get a LOT more faves per visitors than others - and the rating gives a really vague idea of the battle between good (up) and "I'm a total douchebag" (down) votes...

burningpet
02-09-2012, 04:54 PM
Well, our game has seen much larger traffic than that. if i had to take a calculated guess, i'd say over a million people have already seen our game or played the demo. (assuming a high conversion rate. if i would to assume we have the industry standard conversion rate, then you can double that figure at the least).

I think people here and on other places are trying to go out of their ways to try and find reasons why the games on the top are on the top, missing the plain simple reason: they are at the top because they are either good or show good potential.

We will have to agree to disagree regarding portal.

"developers have to whore themselves silly to get the sort of numbers it seems to need to get onto Steam"

I fully disagree, i can only speak for our game here though, but we didn't do anything special. we posted about it in our game threads in 3 forums including our own (Bay12 and Qt3), tweeted about it to our collective followers list of very impressive 300 people, posted on our sub reddit of 420 readers and put a link to greenlight in our website. we didn't even posted about it in Desura/Indiedb or the major reddit pages.

if developers never bother to at least take those few simple steps, they are either naive, don't really care about being on steam or complete fools.

now, of course our website probably has more traffic than a completely new or obscure game, but the fact that oh so many people seem to think Towns is a minecraft rip off comes to show that the visitors are from steam itself.

I think if you would want to check for the reasons why a game has so many hits there, then maybe its in the "friends favourites" lists, the number of collections and the games box image (some of those are darn horrible, i am not saying horrible as in ugly graphics, i am saying horrible in graphics design terms, they just don't stand out despite their higher quality)

Stardog
02-09-2012, 05:37 PM
And come on, we both know zombies in the game doesn't magically make the game popular or good. no need to expand on that i believe.
It doesn't make it good, but it will help it get votes and page views.

There are a lot of "pitch black but with a flashlight" games with tons of hits.

I guess it shows why tons of horror games/movies get made.


Well, our game has seen much larger traffic than that. if i had to take a calculated guess, i'd say over a million people have already seen our game or played the demo. (assuming a high conversion rate. if i would to assume we have the industry standard conversion rate, then you can double that figure at the least).

I think people here and on other places are trying to go out of their ways to try and find reasons why the games on the top are on the top, missing the plain simple reason: they are at the top because they are either good or show good potential.

We will have to agree to disagree regarding portal.

"developers have to whore themselves silly to get the sort of numbers it seems to need to get onto Steam"

I fully disagree, i can only speak for our game here though, but we didn't do anything special. we posted about it in our game threads in 3 forums including our own (Bay12 and Qt3), tweeted about it to our collective followers list of very impressive 300 people, posted on our sub reddit of 420 readers and put a link to greenlight in our website. we didn't even posted about it in Desura/Indiedb or the major reddit pages.

if developers never bother to at least take those few simple steps, they are either naive, don't really care about being on steam or complete fools.

now, of course our website probably has more traffic than a completely new or obscure game, but the fact that oh so many people seem to think Towns is a minecraft rip off comes to show that the visitors are from steam itself.

I think if you would want to check for the reasons why a game has so many hits there, then maybe its in the "friends favourites" lists, the number of collections and the games box image (some of those are darn horrible, i am not saying horrible as in ugly graphics, i am saying horrible in graphics design terms, they just don't stand out despite their higher quality
I think you're underestimating your fanbase a little bit. Your game's been in a bundle too, hasn't it? I have known about it for a long time. I also saw it on the front page of my Greenlight very early on.


I've jollied up Greenlight 'Lite' to include slightly better filtering (may need another hour for the junk to disappear) and put in a couple of analytical columns...

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1164739/greenlight.htm

R/Vx1K - Rating per 1000 visitors
F/V - Favourites per visitor

It's interesting that some games get a LOT more faves per visitors than others - and the rating gives a really vague idea of the battle between good (up) and "I'm a total douchebag" (down) votes...
Finally, a usable Greenlight website. Valve's site is an embarrassment to the company.

trjp
02-09-2012, 05:50 PM
I think people here and on other places are trying to go out of their ways to try and find reasons why the games on the top are on the top, missing the plain simple reason: they are at the top because they are either good or show good potential.
I don't think people are doing that - and I don't agree that they're the games with the most potential.

They're the games which have had the most attention in 'indie' circles - they have a following of people (many of whom already own and play the game at least in beta form - and will be expecting a free Steam Key!!)

The point about Portal is that if it had been put into Greenlight 'back in the day' it wouldn't have attracted any more attention than anything else without the pressure of press that it had back then. By the time it arrived it was already well known, of course, but if someone had made Portal now (it and it's like not having existed before) and just put it on Greenlight, it wouldn't get anything like the votes needed.

Summary: Do not assume people know what they want - ever. Greenlight does exactly that.

p.s. I also cannot work out how you get over a million hits on something you don't market - in fact I don't believe that for one minute. You've clearly marketted your game in the past and are reaping the benefits now - which is great of course - but Greenlight seems to be saying "bring your ideas here and show them" when it's really "bring your already widely marketted and popular game here and we'll cream off the best bits".

burningpet
02-09-2012, 06:31 PM
p.s. I also cannot work out how you get over a million hits on something you don't market - in fact I don't believe that for one minute. You've clearly marketted your game in the past and are reaping the benefits now - which is great of course - but Greenlight seems to be saying "bring your ideas here and show them" when it's really "bring your already widely marketted and popular game here and we'll cream off the best bits".

Again, the shit load of comments thinking towns is a minecraft rip off is a clear statement that a lot of the traffic is from within steam.

I never said they have MOST potential, i said they have good potential.

johnki
02-09-2012, 06:39 PM
Okay, so I'm officially less concerned that the users are mistaking the purpose of Greenlight and more concerned that the developers are.

First off, there are a LOT of mod developers on there. Can't you easily submit mods for Valve games to Valve for approval? I thought you could considering there are quite a few on Steam.

Second, there are a LOT of freeware developers posting games. I didn't know Valve even really accepted freeware games that didn't have some source of revenue (like the free to play MMOs and such).

Third, there are a LOT of newbie developers posting games. A lot of them that could get warmly received eventually if they posted their games in other circles and got the feedback they need. Instead, they're posting on Greenlight and getting torn apart. I'm most concerned for these guys. Everyone starts somewhere, and that somewhere isn't always pretty. I mean, no, their game probably doesn't belong on Steam, but it also probably doesn't deserve the terrible response it's getting. They're new, solo developers. If companies like Activision or, hell, even 1C, released these games, sure. Rip them a new one. But not these guys.

This is going to get really confusing really fast unless Valve lays down some more decisive ground rules.

pakoito
02-09-2012, 06:54 PM
Second, there are a LOT of freeware developers posting games. I didn't know Valve even really accepted freeware games that didn't have some source of revenue (like the free to play MMOs and such).They do since a couple of months. Makes sense for three reasons: PR, PR, PR.

Users may install steam to play the game instead of getting it from an unreliable source, steam users can try the game that otherwise is available through a web page and not bothering to install/link, and developers learn how to use Steam API to use in their next (retail) game. Everyone wins.

johnki
02-09-2012, 07:00 PM
They do since a couple of months. Makes sense for three reasons: PR, PR, PR.

Users may install steam to play the game instead of getting it from an unreliable source, steam users can try the game that otherwise is available through a web page and not bothering to install/link, and developers learn how to use Steam API to use in their next (retail) game. Everyone wins.
Ah, so that's why Super Crate Box showed up.

No matter, the other points still apply. Valve needs some serious ground rules.

EDIT: I think the biggest problem is there are a lot of Steam users saying "this isn't for Steam". How do they know? How do they know it's not generic FPS with new age graphics #4532162785713 that's going to suck and be "not for Steam"? Valve has approved some pretty weird stuff, and some total crap before. If it were up to the users, Analogue, which is apparently brilliant (I haven't really played it yet, just got it in the IR bundle) probably wouldn't "be for Steam".

Gah, it's so annoying.

Rauten
02-09-2012, 07:50 PM
After toying with GreenLight for a while, I don't really know what to think anymore.

On one side, I've seen a few games that really look interesting and up my alley that I had absolutely no idea that they existed, and really hope they make it to Steam.

On the other hand, I've seen people uploading well known games, games they didn't develop, ask for BF3 on Steam, and just a while ago someone saying s/he is a 15 year old UK girl with no money for games asking people to gift her some; I shit you not.

I hope it'll kinda "die down" after a while and it'll normalize, but right now it's like a shitstorm with some raw gems buried in the poop every now and then.

MoLAoS
02-09-2012, 08:17 PM
project zomboid, a 2d pixel isometric open world game, is 1 or 2, depends what stats you are looking at. mc pixel, a retro point and click is somewhere in the top 10, octodad is among the top ones as well. the only genre i don't see in the top 10 are wargames, but that doesn't mean a fresh and interesting one will not succeed there.

obviously we are not talking about games that are ALREADY POPULAR...

MoLAoS
02-09-2012, 08:24 PM
Again, the shit load of comments thinking towns is a minecraft rip off is a clear statement that a lot of the traffic is from within steam.

I never said they have MOST potential, i said they have good potential.

What is your game exactly thats getting so many hits?

trjp
02-09-2012, 09:06 PM
There's a massive problem of people thinking "this isn't for Steam" because they have no idea what that actually means - and what they THINK it means is different to what everyone else things it means.

This is why downvoting is stupid - it's dead simple, if you like a game and would like to be available on Steam (irrespective of whether it costs too much, too little or nothing) then you upvote it.

We don't need downvotes - we don't need favourites - they serve NO purpose here. I don't give a rats ass if someone else doesn't want a game on Steam - that opinion is worth nothing to anyone (including them tbh)

deano2099
02-09-2012, 09:27 PM
Okay fair point, but those titles have a significant amount of effort invested in them. The majority of the titles on the linked sites do not. Hell a large bulk of them are just using standard assets without any regard for whether it fits the game or not. Even Super Columbine Massacre RPG had more effort than that.

Analogue only has two anime-style characters in terms of graphics. The quality comes from the writing, which is the case for a lot of Ren'Py and, to a lesser extent, RPG Maker games. That's not to say that you're wrong when you say a lot of it is shit, just that it'd be really hard to tell the difference from looking at a Greenlight page.

trjp
02-09-2012, 09:29 PM
Analogue only has two anime-style characters in terms of graphics. The quality comes from the writing, which is the case for a lot of Ren'Py and, to a lesser extent, RPG Maker games. That's not to say that you're wrong when you say a lot of it is shit, just that it'd be really hard to tell the difference from looking at a Greenlight page.

Ironically - getting back to Portal - the genius in Portal was in the setting/writing/voice work etc. - in screenies and even when described, it comes cover as pretty bland and boring.

Use portals to solve puzzles - avoid being killed - you have no way of defending yourself - there is no cake...

Rauten
02-09-2012, 09:49 PM
This is why downvoting is stupid - it's dead simple, if you like a game and would like to be available on Steam (irrespective of whether it costs too much, too little or nothing) then you upvote it.

We don't need downvotes - we don't need favourites - they serve NO purpose here. I don't give a rats ass if someone else doesn't want a game on Steam - that opinion is worth nothing to anyone (including them tbh)

Downvoting serves the purpose of removing the game from the Customized List; Since they don't seem to be taken into consideration, it's a quick and easy way of saying "don't show me this game again". At least, it's what I use it for.

Favorites helps keep track of games you're interested in. I don't think it's valuable feedback for the devs, but from a user point of view, it can be helpful. Though it'd probably be better if there was a way to filter games that you've upvoted, but I think everyone agrees the current interface of GreenLight is pretty horrible.

Vague-rant
02-09-2012, 09:54 PM
What is your game exactly thats getting so many hits?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say its Towns, as implied in the bit you quoted. Suspect it might at least partially be related to the exposure it got from the Indie Royale Alpha bundle- I wouldn't have heard of it if not for that, and whilst not a hardcore indie gamer, I do keep an eye out for such things.

Anyways, too early for me to make any judgement on Greenlight's success. Probably need to see at least one game from there "make it" so to speak and as has been stated, how many people keep using it. I do think it's brilliant the way Steam is branching out though. I recently started using Steam Workshop for Portal 2 maps and I have to say my faith in Valve is very strong when it comes to pulling off community relations or that sort of thing.

trjp
02-09-2012, 09:56 PM
Downvoting serves the purpose of removing the game from the Customized List; Since they don't seem to be taken into consideration, it's a quick and easy way of saying "don't show me this game again". At least, it's what I use it for.

Favorites helps keep track of games you're interested in. I don't think it's valuable feedback for the devs, but from a user point of view, it can be helpful. Though it'd probably be better if there was a way to filter games that you've upvoted, but I think everyone agrees the current interface of GreenLight is pretty horrible.

Using downvotes just to track what you've seen and not seen is massively, massively harmful to developers - every downvote seems to cancel-out an upvote!!

That means if a game is "just not your cuppa" you're balancing out someone who's dying to play it - way to go there hero...

Favourites aren't needed because upvotes can and should do the same thing- keep a list of the games you like so you can watch and see when/if they are accepted.

I've said it many times - the whole issue of Web 2.0 'social inclusion' has opened-up many cans of worms when it comes to giving a shit about what people think when it's somewhere between worthless and actually harmful.

We need a massive timeout on favouriting, commenting, voting until we can actually get people to UNDERSTAND stuff and not just act like monkeys punching the "I LIKE" or "DO NOT LIKE" buttons until they bleed...

Koobazaur
02-09-2012, 10:21 PM
They do since a couple of months. Makes sense for three reasons: PR, PR, PR.

Ugh, but that's the problem if Greenlight does go that route - it's just another popularity contest that boils down game success to "who can market the best / has the most e-cred" rather than "who has the best game." Maybe that is exactly why the filtering is completly random - no playing of favorites?

Introducing a "top rated" section to greenlight would completly undermine the whole point.

At this point it really feels like Greenlight can go in two directions - plethora of shitty/animu/never-to-be-finished/copy-pasta hobby games, or yet another Kickstarter/IndieGoGo clone platform for advertising.


I've said it many times - the whole issue of Web 2.0 'social inclusion' has opened-up many cans of worms when it comes to giving a shit about what people think when it's somewhere between worthless and actually harmful.

We need a massive timeout on favouriting, commenting, voting until we can actually get people to UNDERSTAND stuff and not just act like monkeys punching the "I LIKE" or "DO NOT LIKE" buttons until they bleed...

Completely agree. As noble and beautiful the ideas of democracy and web2.0 empowerment is... most people really don't know what they want, including even me. So many games I expected to hate but learned to love, and vice versa.

LTK
02-09-2012, 10:51 PM
Ugh, but that's the problem if Greenlight does go that route - it's just another popularity contest that boils down game success to "who can market the best / has the most e-cred" rather than "who has the best game." Maybe that is exactly why the filtering is completly random - no playing of favorites?

Introducing a "top rated" section to greenlight would completly undermine the whole point.
I can't believe more people haven't said this already. Developers are supposed to ask their established fanbase to go on Greenlight and vote for their game, so that Valve can get an idea for which projects are or aren't worthwhile to release on Steam. If that's the purpose, then the only reason a Steam user would browse the games available is to find one they are already familiar with, and upvote it. You're not supposed to go there and vote on projects you've never heard of, because then your guess is as good as Valve's, and that's not what they want to know.

To that end, I think it's actually detrimental to the system to even allow users to browse the available games, not to mention ask them to rate ALL of them. If Valve really wanted the average Steam user to upvote or downvote every single project on Greenlight, then they're essentially asking you to do their work for them, when they should be asking you to judge the available projects better than they can.

Rauten
02-09-2012, 11:08 PM
Using downvotes just to track what you've seen and not seen is massively, massively harmful to developers - every downvote seems to cancel-out an upvote!!

That means if a game is "just not your cuppa" you're balancing out someone who's dying to play it - way to go there hero...

Favourites aren't needed because upvotes can and should do the same thing- keep a list of the games you like so you can watch and see when/if they are accepted.

Wait, what? I checked the FAQ and it doesn't say a word about downvotes; are you sure each downvote cancels an upvote (which is completely and utterly retarded)?

Also, yes, upvotes should do that, but they don't; hence why favourites, at least until they fix upvotes, is handy.

burningpet
02-09-2012, 11:15 PM
Favourites perpetuate hype, since people look at their friends favourites, so they are very handy regardless of the effect they have on the calculated %.

Btw - does it says anywhere steam wont also review games for acceptance in the old fashioned way?

trjp
03-09-2012, 12:11 AM
Btw - does it says anywhere steam wont also review games for acceptance in the old fashioned way?

Few pages back someone posted a link to where it says the old submission system has been suspended in favour of Greenlight - they're not accepting any games via any other means right now.

That can't last - they cannot seriously expect every developer will want to play this popularity contest - nor should they be letting other people choose how they actually make money (unless they're completely mad).

trjp
03-09-2012, 12:15 AM
Wait, what? I checked the FAQ and it doesn't say a word about downvotes; are you sure each downvote cancels an upvote (which is completely and utterly retarded)?

Also, yes, upvotes should do that, but they don't; hence why favourites, at least until they fix upvotes, is handy.

It's worth remembering that they just kicked the Steam Workshop code a bit to make Greenlight - a system designed for showcasing mostly free 'mods' has been bent into a system for showcasing entire (mostly commercial - money costing) games!

Before stats were removed from developer pages, a few developers had done the finger-maths and they were sure that downvotes had an effect on rating - perhaps not 1:1 with upvotes but they definately have an effect.

I'm not sure how you could think a 'DOWN'vote would be read as nothing more than "not my cup of tea" - but you highlight the danger of having any sort of 'vote' where it's purpose is obscured.

If it was a BIG RED BUTTON which said "PRESSING THIS WILL CAUSE PEOPLE TO HATE YOU" you might, at least, have paused for a second? :)

deano2099
03-09-2012, 12:37 AM
That can't last - they cannot seriously expect every developer will want to play this popularity contest - nor should they be letting other people choose how they actually make money (unless they're completely mad).

I imagine Greenlight will be used in two ways. Any game that gets over the arbitrary limit gets on to Steam directly, with no other faffing around. But those projects will be a minority. But I imagine any game that stalls out with a significant number of votes will get looked at by Valve's internal team too (if nothing else, I can't imagine they just fired the whole internal game assessment team).

Problem is, that still doesn't leave niche genre games in a very good spot

soldant
03-09-2012, 12:39 AM
I think people are just watching that one for it's next massive, self-induced, car-crash...

One of the developers WILL be eaten by a flesh-eating virus contracted from a dirty telephone - it's about the only thing they've not endured as yet??
Haha, yeah. And they'll get a wave of sympathy again no doubt.


Popular yes, now, but its still a niche. and it sure was a niche when the world first heard of it.
What, a zombie survival game? Right now we're set to drown in them. When it was first announced it was sort of interesting because you could kill your own wife, but since then everybody else has cottoned onto the zombie theme and Project Zomboid isn't particularly unique any more. If anything it's going to get left behind since the rise of DayZ has started.


Portal would have rocked the top charts in greenlight, just as it did at the sell charts. maybe they would have been forced to release a demo though, but non the less, it would have been right there at the top spots.
You're thinking of Portal as it is right now - a Valve game with all the Valve trappings. Portal didn't start like that - its origins lie in Narbacular Drop, which I doubt most people had even heard of until Portal appeared. And that probably wouldn't have gotten through either, because everyone would have gone "What the hell is this? I don't get it!"


EDIT: All the niche genre stuff - Again, Steam isn't supposed to accept every single game ever. If you want to play a popularity contest, the niche games will lose. There's no other way around it. I don't see why niche games not getting onto Steam is such a big issue. That was never going to be the point of Greenlight, and they were highly unlikely to make it on their own. Why show preferential treatment, just because it's a niche game?

deano2099
03-09-2012, 01:43 AM
EDIT: All the niche genre stuff - Again, Steam isn't supposed to accept every single game ever. If you want to play a popularity contest, the niche games will lose. There's no other way around it. I don't see why niche games not getting onto Steam is such a big issue. That was never going to be the point of Greenlight, and they were highly unlikely to make it on their own. Why show preferential treatment, just because it's a niche game?

Because the very best games in those genres deserve a wider audience. Analogue has outsold every other VN in the UK by an order of magnitude because it was highlighted on Steam. It got on there through being one of the best in it's genre and recognised as such by Valve's team. It would never have got on through Greenlight.

No, Steam shouldn't have every game ever, but I'd rather it have the best games ever than the most popular games ever. Like with Portal, pretty much any game that does something truly different, that does something original, won't make it. Because people have nothing to relate it to. No frame of reference, no reason to up-vote it. Even if there's a demo, most people aren't going to play it.

soldant
03-09-2012, 04:57 AM
...very best games... deserve... one of the best in it's genre... the best games ever than the most popular games ever.
There-in lies the issue... these are all very subjective. Even popularity since it depends entirely on the population in question. Analogue for example might seem quite popular but I've also seen plenty of people who don't like it. When you expand that to people who don't like visual novels (and generally it's not a popular genre at all) and the entire "best games ever" thing falls apart. While something may be well received in a niche, as part of a whole it might not be very interesting. Steam caters to the population at large. These niche titles aren't likely to make it and that's not a problem.

Steam is a store. It's not a showcase. It's not a free advertising/hype platform. It exists to sell games with DRM. There is no requirement for Steam to elevate niche titles to stardom, because even if it did chances are they'll stay niche titles because they cater to that niche.

Even then Portal is popular not just for its mechanics, but for its character. Arguably Portal 2 was carried primary by the game's characters and humour, because the portal mechanic was stale and the gels weren't anywhere near as entertaining.

internetonsetadd
03-09-2012, 07:52 AM
Some of the arguments against the downvote system seem to be bordering on "How could anybody not like this? If they don't like it they shouldn't be allowed to say so." Both up and down voting is open to widespread abuse and knee-jerk "NO GARFIELD IN DIS GAME -1/OMFG SAW 2 SCREENSHOTS LUKS AWSUM +1!" voting. Although the concerns of troll-voting are valid, that also applies to being able to like something.

Not every indie game is gold, and not everybody likes every game. I don't see a problem with letting people express that they don't like a game. If a game is popular, the upvotes will defeat the downvotes, and it'll be worth having on Steam. Not every indie game is going to be worth having on Steam. I don't think a system of "You either like it or you're not entitled to an opinion" is any more balanced than having the current system.

That's not the argument I made. I'm asking why it's relevant that x number of people dislike a game if a sufficient number (per Steam) expressed an interest in purchasing it. If one were to poll the gaming community at large on how they felt about the average indie, I imagine that the majority of responses would be down votes. For niche/indie titles, it's not relevant that most gamers wouldn't buy it. It's relevant that enough gamers would. Clearly that's an oversimplification that ignores some factors--those browsing Greenlight probably have an existing interest in indies, for example. You do raise a good point about manipulation; if the down-vote feature is intended to help mitigate abuse, certainly there's value in that.

Moving on, I'm not sure what you're getting at in your recent posts. Steam has been making money off niche indies for a while now. I don't think the purpose of Greenlight is to erect more barriers to these sorts of games, but to make it easier for worthwhile (sellable) titles to gain entry. You mentioned that you voted for Kinetic Void. That's a niche game in what has been relegated to a niche genre; the project barely succeeded on Kickstarter. I imagine it's the sort of non-hit indie that will sell only modestly until a sale--not unlike Evochron Mercenary, which climbed into the top 10 during the summer sale. This seems to be the general rule for most indies on Steam.

I genuinely don't understand your point re: Analogue. It's totally irrelevant that it's niche. Steam isn't elevating indies for charity--it's doing so because there's money in it. Few indies are going to have mass appeal or see AAA-level sales numbers. That's an unreasonable expectation of an otherwise valuable product. I think Greenlight can be looked at as an effort by Steam to capture more of the niche market more efficiently, perhaps in anticipation of Origin trying to aggressively edge its way in. "Not a problem" that a game like Analogue wouldn't make it to Steam is somewhere in the range of 30,000 lost sales.

soldant
03-09-2012, 08:26 AM
It's relevant that enough gamers would.
But what is enough? Any sort of numbers manipulation just lowers the bar, or raises it unfairly depending on the game. My point with that section of the post is that people complaining that there should only be an upvote seem to be implying that the only opinion that matters is one that's positive towards the game. Everybody else can either not have a say, or ineffectually complain in the comments. For all we know Valve could be using information about users (such as their game library composition etc) in concert with the votes to determine what section of the market likes Game X. Failing that, I don't see why people shouldn't be able to vote against a game. There definitely should be a "I don't care, don't show me again" option, but I'm fine with there being a "I don't want this on Steam" option. Both votes are open to abuse.


Moving on, I'm not sure what you're getting at in your recent posts.
People seem to be suggesting that it's a terrible crime that niche titles aren't going to rocket to the top because the community, as a whole, aren't likely to vote for them. My point is "So what?" The idea behind Greenlight is that popular projects get a shot at a place on Steam (or a place outright, I guess it's not 100% clear yet how it works). We're dealing with a massive community which will tend to reach a general consensus on certain titles. That's not going to be niche games. Well, it's unlikely to be a niche title that gets picked, but that's what happens when it's a popularity contest. It's either something that most people like the sound of, or the game that gets hyped the most. And indie hype sure does happen, it's not restricted to the big studios.

I did vote up Kinetic Void, and I guess it is sort of niche because space has been forced into a corner in recent years (last game I really enjoyed was Freelancer, the X series are crippled by their dated UI). But that's not contradicting what I'm saying - that Greenlight isn't supposed to exist just to elevate niche titles to stardom. Kinetic Void has been generating a fair bit of interest, and may do so post-release. Only just reaching their Kickstarter goal might not be the best determinant because Kickstarter effectively asks you to back a project on a promise of what the game might be, not what it actually is. But in any event I backed it because it's something that appeals to me, just as I'd back a wargame. But I'm not going to get upset if they don't make it, because I understand that they're niche titles and not likely to have a mass appeal. And in a popularity contest, that's okay.

If they subsequently fail to turn a profit, then too bad. Gaming isn't a charity, it's an industry, developers are businesses. It's fine to make something that appeals to you or your niche only, but if you fail to turn a profit from an unpopular product, then I won't blame the system.


"Not a problem" that a game like Analogue wouldn't make it to Steam is somewhere in the range of 30,000 lost sales.
So what? I really don't care that the dev of Analogue doesn't get 30,000 sales. I'm a consumer, nothing that dev has done particularly interests me, I'm not required to care any more than I'm required to care that Call of Honour 6: Black SWAT didn't sell 60 billion copies. I don't know why you'd even bother to mention this.

deano2099
03-09-2012, 09:18 AM
People seem to be suggesting that it's a terrible crime that niche titles aren't going to rocket to the top because the community, as a whole, aren't likely to vote for them. My point is "So what?"
It's not a crime. It's just worse than it used to be. As I said, if this was in addition to the normal process, it'd be inarguably great. But it's not. It's replacing it. Your whole argument against Analogue goes out the window because Steam clearly did want it on their service. We know this because they put it up there. Under Greenlight, they would never have had the chance to do so.


But I'm not going to get upset if they don't make it, because I understand that they're niche titles and not likely to have a mass appeal. And in a popularity contest, that's okay.
Yes, that is okay. But Steam didn't used to be a popularity contest. It now is. I think that's a step in the wrong direction. You don't have to look far to see what the result of picking the games you sell by a popularity contest is, just walk in to a high street game store.

If you think Steam is better off being a popularity contest than a curated storefront that's fine. But you're not offering any arguments as to why. You're just saying it's fine for Steam to do that because they're a private business. Which is obvious to everyone. We're just saying we think it's a bad call.

soldant
03-09-2012, 10:02 AM
It's not a crime. It's just worse than it used to be. As I said, if this was in addition to the normal process, it'd be inarguably great. But it's not. It's replacing it. Your whole argument against Analogue goes out the window because Steam clearly did want it on their service. We know this because they put it up there. Under Greenlight, they would never have had the chance to do so.
None of that contradicts my argument. I'm not saying that Greenlight replacing Valve as gatekeeper of the walled garden is a good thing. In fact I suggested that Valve should (and probably will) still play gatekeeper at the end of the day. My argument with Analogue isn't 'thrown out the window' because Valve wanted it - all I suggested was that to go on about 'the best game ever' is ridiculous because that's a meaningless term, particularly when applied to Steam as a whole. Whether Valve wanted it or not doesn't change that since I'm talking about Greenlight. Beyond that I said that I don't care if Analogue or any other niche title succeeds or fails because they're not on Steam. If they're not, they're apparently not good enough.

Greenlight is a popularity contest involving the Steam community, with all the horrors that involves. The previous system was Valve accepting what Valve wanted to sell. Neither are particularly good systems on their own, but I'd much sooner take the latter than trust the community, because collectively we're terrible.

You've effectively twisted my argument around to make it sound like I'm in favour of Greenlight. I'm not. I think it's a misguided idea. I might even go so far as to suggest that, at least in its current version, it shouldn't have been done at all. But I will say that if a niche title doesn't make it, I won't lose sleep over it, and they were never likely to be in the running anyway. It's one big hype contest - whoever gets the hype to fever-pitch will win. I don't think that's a good system, I never said it was a good system, and any suggestion to the contrary is incorrect.

Just to hammer home the point I refer you back to my post on Page 7 from yesterday:

Who dares hype is he who wins. Which is why I still hope that Valve remain as the gatekeepers.

It does have the potential to expose new games to Steam... if it worked properly. As it stands it doesn't. The concept isn't bad. Its execution however is. Don't try to change my argument for me.

trjp
03-09-2012, 11:30 AM
To summarize the whole argument about GreenLight as briefly as I can

I do not think Steam will be the best place to get/store my digital game collection if the games available on it are purely those chosen by "the massed hordes of the Internet".

Sheer weight of opinion is not enough - a mainstream-sounding game may get a million views but a I want good games - not games by developers good at plugging themselves.

Steam has a reputation for being 'hard to get into' - you cannot just change that to "easy to get into if you pander to the masses".

The first 'free' indie on Steam came just before Greenlight - Super Crate Box - I actually don't think it would have fared too well in Greenlight - certainly not in the higher end of the current games list...

trjp
03-09-2012, 11:59 AM
and moving on to my other job - that of turning Greenlight upside down for interesting (to me, at least) stats...

Do you think Layernet are taking the piss with 29 titles on Greenlight? Alawar are closely following with 27 - the next highest has 'just' 8.

I can't help thinking that amongst all the other things they need to fix, limiting people to a few games at a time might be an idea!?

It shows a lack of PR awareness from the developers too (tho they are publishers I guess?) - it's much harder to get 27 votes - 27 views - 27 "do I want this" decisions from people than it is to get 1-3ish?

SOmething about 'eggs' and 'baskets'...

stainedfan
03-09-2012, 12:13 PM
I want to let you know about a game on greenlight (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92920386) which is very little known. It has also got a demo if you like give it a little push.

Thanks

sk2k
03-09-2012, 12:58 PM
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198070577099/myworkshopfiles/?section=greenlight

Why is this allowed on Greenlight? It's spam for me. They are not really indie devs. Alawar is some type of publisher/distributor.

EDIT: Whoops! I did not saw trjp's post. :)

trjp
03-09-2012, 01:51 PM
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198070577099/myworkshopfiles/?section=greenlight

Why is this allowed on Greenlight? It's spam for me. They are not really indie devs. Alawar is some type of publisher/distributor.

EDIT: Whoops! I did not saw trjp's post. :)

Heh - I don't think Greenlight is 'indie only' by any means - right now it's the only way to submit games for consideration for Steam.

I think it might help if they thought about what they're doing - they've clearly not gotten anything on before so they DUMP IT ALL ON NOW - but then all publicity is good publicity!?

Hell I could submit the HTML5 game I wrote and posted about here (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?5973-I-made-a-browser-based-word-game-help-me-make-it-better-or-break-it-for-me-plz!) - I'd never get accepted but I would get a tonne of publicity I couldn't easily get elsewhere!!

alms
03-09-2012, 03:49 PM
I apologize if this has been posted already but I only have the time to skim through the massive pools of negativity about Greenlight :rolleyes:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?p=32641767#post32641767

"Downvotes do not nullify upvotes"

BTW, so far I only upvoted off the top of my mind:

The Sea Will Claim Everything (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=93006822)
Wyv and Keep (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92918281)

I've also asked one of the Skygoblin guys to create an entry for The Journey Down.

johnki
03-09-2012, 04:26 PM
So I've just realized another flaw in Greenlight's system. When it comes down to it, how do you know for sure that the person uploading these games to Greenlight is the real rights holder? What the unwashed masses seem to have not realized is that they might be able to get away with it if they change their name to match the company's name (nothing's stopping you from changing your display name 432646723423 times) and either rid themselves of an avatar (a lot of the companies seem to not have avatars) or put up something related to the company. It's really that easy to fake it. And that concerns me.

alms
03-09-2012, 04:36 PM
(nothing's stopping you from changing your display name 432646723423 times)

Correct me if I'm wrong: every time you change your community name, the old one is recorded and can still be viewed from your profile. I don't know if this specific feature is available on greenlight as well. So it would be easier to just create a new account.

What's there to be gained from submitting a game that is not yours, anyway?

ColOfNature
03-09-2012, 04:53 PM
Your Steam ID, community ID, screen name and username are distinct things on Steam, and the only one you can change is your screen name - the rest are unique to your account. And Steam tracks what names you've used in the past. The FAQ (http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/about/?appid=765&section=faq) directs you to the Legal (http://www.valvesoftware.com/legal.html) page for cases where someone has uploaded your property. There have already been reports that people will be banned for uploading hoax games so I'd imagine the same rule would apply to attempting to pass someone else's work off as your own.

johnki
03-09-2012, 05:02 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong: every time you change your community name, the old one is recorded and can still be viewed from your profile. I don't know if this specific feature is available on greenlight as well. So it would be easier to just create a new account.Not that I'm aware. I have people on my friends list that have changed their names a bunch of times, but I couldn't check the old ones, to my knowledge.



What's there to be gained from submitting a game that is not yours, anyway?
Nothing, I'd imagine. But plenty of Steam users have and still are doing it.


Your Steam ID, community ID, screen name and username are distinct things on Steam, and the only one you can change is your screen name - the rest are unique to your account. And Steam tracks what names you've used in the past. The FAQ (http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/about/?appid=765&section=faq) directs you to the Legal (http://www.valvesoftware.com/legal.html) page for cases where someone has uploaded your property. There have already been reports that people will be banned for uploading hoax games so I'd imagine the same rule would apply to attempting to pass someone else's work off as your own.
That assumes that someone notices. And if you change your screen name, there's a chance no one will know the difference.

trjp
03-09-2012, 05:16 PM
"Downvotes do not nullify upvotes"

That doesn't actually say "Downvotes do not affect rating" tho - the simple fact that they don't make it clear what the hell an up or down vote actually means, means that they can - of course - do anything they damned-well-like with them.

Right now, "acceptance" appears to be set about 8 miles too high - there are only 5 games which have made it past 10% (a 6th is closing in) and Postal 2 has 5%, sitting at 14th-most-popular (which would make me kill myself if I were in positions 15 onwards, frankly).

internetonsetadd
03-09-2012, 07:07 PM
snip

Here's the thing. I don't have any interest in most of the existing indies on Steam. I don't have any interest in most of the current games on Greenlight. There are maybe several handfuls that I actually do want, or would personally like to see on Steam. I suspect that's the same for most Steam users. If Valve is asking its community (is it?) to give an up/down vote to all the potential Steamable games on Greenlight, up-votes could well be comparably rare.

Steam has some 54 million active users. If just 1% of them used Greenlight and started down-voting everything they didn't want, the 30,000 or so people who had an interest in a game like Analogue might not be able to push it through. Again though, without knowing how votes are weighed or how the voting segment of the community is going to use Greenlight, there's no way to know how these kinds of scenarios are going to play out. However, if weighed equally, I think it's going to be incredibly difficult for up-votes to compete with a much larger pool of potential down-votes.



So what? I really don't care that the dev of Analogue doesn't get 30,000 sales. I'm a consumer, nothing that dev has done particularly interests me, I'm not required to care any more than I'm required to care that Call of Honour 6: Black SWAT didn't sell 60 billion copies. I don't know why you'd even bother to mention this.

Having little interest in playing it, I don't care about Analogue or its dev either. We've been using it as an example precisely because it's a modestly successful game that Valve decided to make available on Steam. It's nicely representative of the old model: a generally well received title, not of interest to most, of interest to enough. Steam's committee decided it was good enough.

When I say 30,000 lost sales is a problem, I'm not talking about the dev. I'm talking about lost revenue for Steam. The overall financial success--for Valve--of indies being on Steam is made up in part by having a diverse collection of modestly successful titles. With a few notable exceptions, most indies are niche. That is the market, or at least a significant portion of it. If Greenlight can't replicate the nimble decision-making of a committee that carefully navigated that market--if it can't bring a game like Analogue to the 30,000 people who want it--then it's not going to succeed in supplanting the committee with a better alternative.

trjp
03-09-2012, 07:22 PM
Would it come as a surprise to know that I've had a few contacts today (through the contact details on my Dropbox-based Greelight Lite thingy) which were 'inquiring' as to whether it would be possible to - erm - how can I put this - vote-up or vote-down a large amount of games - sort of automatically...

It's a dog-eat-dog world out there (for the record, yes it is and no I'm not going to do it).

If I don't, someone will tho (trawl those coder-to-hire sites, there will be people asking for just this) - and then reference the same scandal on XBLA and XBLIG which Microsoft sterlingly ignored completely...

internetonsetadd
03-09-2012, 07:33 PM
No it would not. I abandon my case against down-votes.

burningpet
03-09-2012, 11:32 PM
Would it come as a surprise to know that I've had a few contacts today (through the contact details on my Dropbox-based Greelight Lite thingy) which were 'inquiring' as to whether it would be possible to - erm - how can I put this - vote-up or vote-down a large amount of games - sort of automatically...

It's a dog-eat-dog world out there (for the record, yes it is and no I'm not going to do it).

If I don't, someone will tho (trawl those coder-to-hire sites, there will be people asking for just this) - and then reference the same scandal on XBLA and XBLIG which Microsoft sterlingly ignored completely...

Serious?? this is a criminal felony.

soldant
04-09-2012, 01:32 AM
Here's the thing. I don't have any interest in most of the existing indies on Steam.
Neither do I. Then again I don't like most indie games.


the 30,000 or so people who had an interest in a game like Analogue might not be able to push it through.
Again, so what? Since when is Steam supposed to cater to everybody? At the moment, there's something like 3,324,837 players logged into Steam (Source (http://store.steampowered.com/stats/)). 30,000 isn't a significant portion of that. If this is a popularity contest, I'd say the fact that 30,000 out of 3 million wanting a game isn't worth much. You're yet to demonstrate why there should be special catering to niche titles when Greenlight is a popularity contest, nor why people shouldn't be allowed to vote down a title if, in their opinion, it shouldn't be on Steam. You seem to be assuming that every vote down is vindictive.


Having little interest in playing it, I don't care about Analogue or its dev either. We've been using it as an example precisely because it's a modestly successful game that Valve decided to make available on Steam. It's nicely representative of the old model: a generally well received title, not of interest to most, of interest to enough. Steam's committee decided it was good enough.
You seem to be under the assumption that I support Greenlight. I don't. I'd much rather Valve play gatekeeper and just use Greenlight as a sort of "The community thinks this is kind of cool" system, with ultimate power still in Valve's hands. It's even more ridiculous that it's currently the only method of submission. I like the idea of being able to submit games to Valve as a form of "We're interested in this, take a look" but not in its current form - an absurd popularity contest masquerading as community choice and power. Also the community sucks.


I'm talking about lost revenue for Steam. The overall financial success--for Valve--of indies being on Steam is made up in part by having a diverse collection of modestly successful titles.
Again, 30,000 lost units of Analogue aren't going to sink Valve. No doubt indie revenue is great for Valve and helps keep them in control of a significant amount of gaming, I think you might be overstating the importance of some niche titles, and underestimating the importance of the big name titles.


But to clarify my position, since some of you apparently can't get the message - I don't support Greenlight in its current form and I still strongly believe that, even with Greenlight, Valve should be the final gatekeeper. I don't have an issue with something like Analogue being on Steam. Personally I hate it but I couldn't care less if Valve decide to put it up. But as Greenlight is basically a popularity contest involving the community as a whole, it's expected that niche titles will lose out. But again, so what? Popular titles that sell like hotcakes would be a lot more reliable than a bunch of niche titles which people might ignore until a sale rolls around.

trjp
04-09-2012, 01:36 AM
Serious?? this is a criminal felony.

I doubt it's criminal - it's dishonest and immoral and against Steam's TOS for sure, but I doubt it would be considered a crime.

On the 'coder for hire' sites you often see jobs to "create 1000s of XBOX Live Accounts" - which I'm sure also includes using them to vote-up games (or vote-down competitors). There are a couple of cases of people spotting this sort of behaviour on XBLIG but Microsoft have either denied it or ignored it completely.

Given the numbers involved here tho (WAY bigger than XBLIG voting) it would be a massive task (and thus easily spotted) to try to influence the big hitters. You could easily boost a lesser-hitting game to the point it gets more attention tho - and I'm sure it will happen.

What I've written wouldn't help people do that at all tho - but when people see this sort of thing, they tend to think "Ooh - now if I could just..."

RobF
04-09-2012, 04:13 AM
They'd just look a right twat when Steam refuses to accept the game due to botting/voterigging.

Some people are such utterly (predictable) fuckwits, it's terrifying. This isn't App Store stars here, this is actual real people looking at actual stats and making decisions around those stats. And they're not dealing with a monolithic company with 300 layers of bureaucracy before anything gets acted on like with MS, they're dealing with a company designed to respond instantly to anything that isn't making Half Life 3. And the gatekeepers of the store they'd have to maintain exceedingly good relationships with in the near future if, in an alternate universe, they actually got accepted. Which they wouldn't.

Astoundingly stupid.

internetonsetadd
04-09-2012, 05:47 AM
snip

You're free to infer whatever you want from my posts, but I'd like to clarify that I made no assumptions about how you feel about Greenlight. You stated earlier in the thread that you're not in favor of it; I read that. If you want to talk about assumptions, you've implied multiple times that my arguments stem from my being some sort of bleeding heart for devs when absolutely nothing I've said here has been even remotely suggestive of that.

You continue to state that it's not relevant if niche games like Analogue fail to make it through Greenlight. It's almost as if you're redefining Steam's business model according to how you see it, perhaps due to your disinterest in indies, but then I don't know you that well. Steam lists 362 indies in its store; indie is one of its eleven game categories. The majority of those titles are not massive successes. I'm not talking about "special catering" to niche titles--I don't even know what that means within the context of this conversation. I'm attempting to loosely estimate Greenlight's capacity to successfully pass a certain segment of indies through its system--measured against Steam's ample history of accepting and distributing such titles.

I think we can agree that the purpose of Greenlight is not to admit fewer games, but to enable Steam to offer more games that more people want. Actually, you have to agree. That is the purpose: "[W]ith the introduction of the Steam Workshop we realized an opportunity to enlist the community's help as we review certain titles and, hopefully, increase the volume and quality of creative submissions."¯ I don't think I can state any clearer that if Greenlight can't at minimum replicate what the greenlight group did to get those 362 indies on Steam, it will be doing something wrong. And. That. Is. A. Problem.


Again, so what? Since when is Steam supposed to cater to everybody? At the moment, there's something like 3,324,837 players logged into Steam (Source (http://store.steampowered.com/stats/)). 30,000 isn't a significant portion of that. If this is a popularity contest, I'd say the fact that 30,000 out of 3 million wanting a game isn't worth much.

You're welcome to keep insisting that Greenlight's functioning as a popularity contest (while this remains to be seen, I don't disagree with you there) is all fine and well because you don't think it's particularly relevant if Steam doesn't offer niche indies to the people who want to buy them. However, you should admit that that's according to your opinion, and not at all in line with Steam's history and stated intent.

The title we've been throwing around as an example, Analogue, is really the crux of the argument. You ask: "Since when is Steam supposed to cater to everybody?" They already bloody do. I think it's safe to assume that Steam is looking out for its own interests. If hundreds of indies at or around Analogue's level of success are already on Steam, clearly it's in Steam's interest to be distributing those titles. Steam is in the business of catering to people's interests, and that is precisely what Greenlight is all about. Ensuring that Greenlight can get the kinds of small indies onto Steam that Steam already distributes isn't some sort of feel-good special treatment to placate gamers or make devs happy; it's entirely within the realm of Steam's existing business.

Koobazaur
04-09-2012, 05:51 AM
I don't think "rigging" voting will be an issue - you are required to have a Steam account, and it's easy enough for Valve to only allow those users who purchased at least one game to vote. Easy way to filter out bots.



That assumes that someone notices. And if you change your screen name, there's a chance no one will know the difference.

If no one notices, then it doesn't matter. If people notice, then Valve will step in with the ban hammer. The problem will solve itself.

Plus, as mentioned, they are only allowing users who purchased at least one game to put stuff up, so the incentive to pretend to be someone else / upload someone else's work will quickly go down once bans start getting handed out.


I can't believe more people haven't said this already. Developers are supposed to ask their established fanbase to go on Greenlight and vote for their game, so that Valve can get an idea for which projects are or aren't worthwhile to release on Steam. If that's the purpose, then the only reason a Steam user would browse the games available is to find one they are already familiar with, and upvote it. You're not supposed to go there and vote on projects you've never heard of, because then your guess is as good as Valve's, and that's not what they want to know.


Then what is the point of Greenlight? We already have the dev's own website, kickstarters, indiegogos, facebook pages, twitters etc. to attract attention. This is just another web outlet the marketing dep will have to add to their "auto-post" programs...

soldant
04-09-2012, 07:01 AM
You continue to state that it's not relevant if niche games like Analogue fail to make it through Greenlight.
That's because it isn't. The platform will keep on keepin' on. You went on to talk about lost revenue for Steam. Yes, it is lost revenue. But it's a drop compared to what some of the larger titles bring in, hence mentioning 'lost revenue' is largely pointless here.


I don't think I can state any clearer that if Greenlight can't at minimum replicate what the greenlight group did to get those 362 indies on Steam, it will be doing something wrong. And. That. Is. A. Problem.
I'm not disagreeing with this point in that the current execution of Greenlight is flawed. As I said, Greenlight isn't a smart idea as it stands. But the problem is that how Greenlight works is totally different from how it's intended to work. As it stands with the voting system (and that includes upvotes) it is just one big popularity contest involving the Steam community as a whole, and it's a very mainstream community for the most part.

But if you're going to run some sort of community consensus event, with the community being pretty much every Steam user, niche titles will lose. And that's just because in the grand scheme of things they're not popular. And I don't have a problem with that - if it's running off a community vote or community interest you either segregate the community so that people that like that niche vote for it and it gets a better chance, or you loop it all in together and everybody fights it out on the same grounds. Steam can live or die without the indie niche titles, from Valve's perspective it's not a huge issue. Again that doesn't mean I agree with it being a popularity contest in the first place, but if that's how Valve will run it, I'm not going to weep over an indie losing out.


However, you should admit that that's according to your opinion, and not at all in line with Steam's history and stated intent.
But it isn't. If the niche titles disappeared tomorrow, Steam wouldn't collapse. Valve know that. You and I both know that. Everybody knows that. Look at the current top sellers up to #20 - apart from Torchlight 2, Orcs Must Die 2, GMod and Home, they're all big name games . In the top 10 there's only Torchlight 2. The indies see significant movement during sales when they're heavily discounted, or when they're tied to a Valve release. But for the most part the big releases dominate.

I never said that it isn't Valve's business model or intent to offer indie games. What I did say was that if it didn't, it'd hardly hurt Steam. I have no doubt it generates a tidy sum of money for Valve, but as you said, plenty of the niche (let's assume 'niche' means the more unpopular subset of games) titles don't sell overly well and wouldn't make a massive difference if they were gone. Particularly today, when Valve has pretty much cornered digital distribution.


The title we've been throwing around as an example, Analogue, is really the crux of the argument. You ask: "Since when is Steam supposed to cater to everybody?" They already bloody do.
Okay, I didn't word that very well. What I probably should have said was something like 'caters to every single demand' or something like that. There's no obligation or intention to cater for every game just because it's a niche title.


I think it's safe to assume that Steam is looking out for its own interests. If hundreds of indies at or around Analogue's level of success are already on Steam, clearly it's in Steam's interest to be distributing those titles.
I can totally agree that Valve look out for their own interests - they're a business, though people seem quick to forget that. Look at how Gabe carried out about the Windows Store and threats to move to Linux (where they'd be pretty much the only big fish in the very small pond). They're out to sell products. And I'd agree that it's a good idea to distribute a wide variety of games. But what I don't agree with is to suggest that it's some great loss for Valve not to peddle something like Analogue. If they lost something like Skyrim, that would hurt. But to not have something like Analogue because the people didn't vote for it? Valve won't lose sleep over it, especially if they picked up the next Minecraft instead.

Again that popularity contest thing sucks, and as I said I don't like the idea of the community making choices. Greenlight should have been people looking at developer-only submissions. Let them vote, but Valve should have the final say, period, and votes should only matter in terms of general interest, not the be-all and end-all.

Wheelz
04-09-2012, 07:39 AM
they're dealing with a company designed to respond instantly to anything that isn't making Half Life 3.

:(

/10chars

deano2099
04-09-2012, 10:56 AM
But it isn't. If the niche titles disappeared tomorrow, Steam wouldn't collapse. Valve know that. You and I both know that. Everybody knows that. Look at the current top sellers up to #20 - apart from Torchlight 2, Orcs Must Die 2, GMod and Home, they're all big name games . In the top 10 there's only Torchlight 2.

I'm not so sure. The top 10/20 means nothing if we don't know what proportion of revenue those games represent. We don't know how long the tail is here. Anecdotally, there's evidence of indies selling 10-20 copies per day even well after launch. How that compares to the larger titles I have no idea. But I'd guess that the long tail is in play here.

soldant
04-09-2012, 12:27 PM
I'm not so sure. The top 10/20 means nothing if we don't know what proportion of revenue those games represent. We don't know how long the tail is here. Anecdotally, there's evidence of indies selling 10-20 copies per day even well after launch. How that compares to the larger titles I have no idea. But I'd guess that the long tail is in play here.
I think it's a fairly safe assumption that Skyrim or Borderlands 2 is bringing in more cash than Analogue.

trjp
04-09-2012, 12:51 PM
I think it's a fairly safe assumption that Skyrim or Borderlands 2 is bringing in more cash than Analogue.

There's a long-standing belief (which I may be whoosh-parrotting) that the Steam charts are based on takings and not sales

I've always found that a BIT hard to believe - it may be based on some calculation whereby more expensive games take a BIT more than cheaper games - but if it were raw cash, I don't see how some cheaper titles would ever feature.

trjp
04-09-2012, 12:55 PM
OK - so I'm trying something a bit different now - improving Greenlight for the game-player rather than the statistician/developer.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1164739/greenlighter.htm

It's basically the data from the other tool but reformatted into pretty pictures and a massive IFRAME for Steam itself - so you can login (it's 100% safe - I can't tamper with Steam in an IFRAME) and browse the list of games (sorted by just a few criteria now but with many more to come - filters as per the other table too) and read-up on/vote on the games without all the tedious forward and backward malarky (or using new tabs if you had any sense).

Feedback apprec. - it's ugly-as-sin but it does seem to work (for me at least).

Images are loaded on-demand and may be a bit slow on some browsers - and it doesn't work on iOS atm for reasons which are driving me spare (probably a missing escape character but there's 600K to code to read through!!)

burningpet
04-09-2012, 01:05 PM
I think it's a fairly safe assumption that Skyrim or Borderlands 2 is bringing in more cash than Analogue.

Every business needs both the bricks AND the mortar.

Trjp - this is getting there :)

Now you just need to make a trendings chart for the top #10 and continue to improve on the graphical design.

trjp
04-09-2012, 01:15 PM
Now you just need to make a trendings chart for the top #10 and continue to improve on the graphical design.

As of the early hours of today I'm now logging the data so I can do 'most hits in the last X hours' type queries - to look for the new games which are moving quickest etc.

I need to sort out 'actual work' first tho - so expect something much later (when I can't sleep again I guess!) :)

p.s. prettier will be tricky because my design-fu is weak...

burningpet
04-09-2012, 01:24 PM
If ill make you a mock up in photoshop, will it help?

trjp
04-09-2012, 02:10 PM
If ill make you a mock up in photoshop, will it help?

I'll take any help I can get! Bear in mind that I'm art-illiterate tho, right now I use no images, just CSS - but if you have some ideas on making any of the stuff I've done 'prettier' and more usable, I'm all for it - thanks!

deano2099
04-09-2012, 02:45 PM
I think it's a fairly safe assumption that Skyrim or Borderlands 2 is bringing in more cash than Analogue.

Right, but if you look at the Steam releases in an average week there's at least 10 smaller or indie titles for every huge game.

There's also the fact that, outside of sales, Steam is generally the cheapest place to get an indie title. It's rarely the cheapest place to get Skyrim or Borderlands 2.

burningpet
04-09-2012, 08:13 PM
Well, here's the first go.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/21309241/highlights.jpg

Scumbag
04-09-2012, 10:11 PM
Somethings here look conceptually far better then they will turn out no doubt. (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92922021&searchtext=)
If a studio with a budget made that it would be genius... before they get sued out of business.

trjp
04-09-2012, 10:41 PM
Well, here's the first go.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/21309241/highlights.jpg

I like that - of course making my stuff LOOK like that is another trick entirely! Any chance of getting that background as a repeating tile/strip/gif and we'll start with that?

Been a busy day but I've done a few things - I have 'historic' data on Greenlight games now so expect to see 'trends' appearing (hopefully before I go to bed!!) - and I'm also planning to include the more popular collections as a 'sort' option in the browser page - both of which I need to give proper names to. How does "GreenLite" for the data and "GreenSight" for the browser sound? :)

I've also registered a domain (shrewdlogarithm.com) as I managed to wipe-out my Dropbox download allowance yesterday - but it will be 24-48 hours before everyone can use that so for the time being we're still kicking Dropbox to death...

Data thingy - soon to get MOAR STATS
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1164739/greenlight.htm

My 'make the site easier to use' page - now works in IE but IOS and iFrames don't get on so no iPad fun and games :(
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1164739/greenlighter.htm

Now I need to find beer - or perhaps just painkillers as my head is exploding!!

johnki
04-09-2012, 11:01 PM
Well, here's the first go.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/21309241/highlights.jpg
Wow, that looks really nice.

burningpet
04-09-2012, 11:37 PM
Can you read .PSD? i have everything on layers so you should also be able to take the buttons, as well as the diagonal strips.

somini
05-09-2012, 12:13 AM
Somethings here look conceptually far better then they will turn out no doubt. (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=92922021&searchtext=)
If a studio with a budget made that it would be genius... before they get sued out of business.
What was that? It got removed.
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wisdom_of_the_ancients.png

johnki
05-09-2012, 12:48 AM
Did anyone else notice the silent changes to thumbs up/down? Now they're "Yes" and "No thanks / Not interested".

trjp
05-09-2012, 12:56 AM
Heh - the 'changes' they made to Greenlight tonight aren't subtle

1 - it's $100 to list a game now!!! (not retroactive) - donated to Childs Play
2 - they've made the games invisible unless you're logged-in - which stops me spidering the content.

In fact, even logged-in users don't get any game stats now - if you vote for a game, you can see it's progress and that's it!!

Hey ho - fun while it lasted, but such a massive change to a system which is less than a week old suggests they didn't really think it through at all really.

I've no interest in voting in a system which is massively opaque and where the people running it are changing the rules as they go - and that's just as a player.

As a developer, I'd steer well clear - asking me for $100 just because they can't be bothered to design a smarter system? Bollocks

soldant
05-09-2012, 01:00 AM
1 - it's $100 to list a game now!!! (not retroactive) - donated to Childs Play
Well, that's one way to kick the kids off it - make them pay!

The changes to the thumbs up/down system might help remove some ambiguity about what the options actually are, and the wording suggests that the "No thanks" option has less importance than the Yes option. I guess Valve might still be playing gatekeeper, which is a good thing.

Still a flawed idea though.

johnki
05-09-2012, 01:18 AM
Well, that's one way to kick the kids off it - make them pay!

The changes to the thumbs up/down system might help remove some ambiguity about what the options actually are, and the wording suggests that the "No thanks" option has less importance than the Yes option. I guess Valve might still be playing gatekeeper, which is a good thing.

Still a flawed idea though.
Well, we still don't know what effect downvotes have on a Pending game. Personally, I hope none. It would suck for a company to pay $100, get the 100k, 200k, whatever upvotes, and then be denied for having too many downvotes.

trjp
05-09-2012, 01:26 AM
Well, we still don't know what effect downvotes have on a Pending game. Personally, I hope none. It would suck for a company to pay $100, get the 100k, 200k, whatever upvotes, and then be denied for having too many downvotes.

The implication is that a downvote simply removes a game from your queue - the fact they're changing this less than a week after release does make you wonder how much thought they gave this tho.

deano2099
05-09-2012, 01:31 AM
I can't help but think charging developers $100 to submit to Steam would have removed the necessity for Greenlight in the first place...

soldant
05-09-2012, 01:58 AM
Well, we still don't know what effect downvotes have on a Pending game. Personally, I hope none. It would suck for a company to pay $100, get the 100k, 200k, whatever upvotes, and then be denied for having too many downvotes.
But what if the majority of people don't want it on Steam? What if that company artificially inflated their count to 100k?

Being able to downvote isn't a bad thing. Plus if it's a company I don't think $100 will bother them too much. An indie? Maybe. But it might encourage people to reconsider submitting if their game isn't particularly good/polished.

johnki
05-09-2012, 02:07 AM
But what if the majority of people don't want it on Steam? What if that company artificially inflated their count to 100k?
Who cares? That's still 100,000 people that are saying they'd want to buy it. And that's just 100,000 out of the probable 200,000 that actually visit and use Greenlight.

soldant
05-09-2012, 02:11 AM
Who cares? That's still 100,000 people that are saying they'd want to buy it. And that's just 100,000 out of the probable 200,000 that actually visit and use Greenlight.
Who cares if they artificially inflated their count? Pretty much everybody I'd imagine, particularly the devs who aren't using such tactics.

I can't see why a game getting a hypothetical 100,000 legitimate votes should be allowed if there's a hypothetical 300,000 legitimate downvotes on the other side. It's an unlikely scenario which highlights how stupid the current system really is, but by the same token if most people don't think it should be on Steam, why allow it? Just to cater to a particular group? If they're going to ignore a majority negative reaction, we might as well not vote at all.

trjp
05-09-2012, 02:18 AM
I can't help but think charging developers $100 to submit to Steam would have removed the necessity for Greenlight in the first place...

Frame that and send it to Gabe...

TillEulenspiegel
05-09-2012, 02:24 AM
I can't help but think charging developers $100 to submit to Steam would have removed the necessity for Greenlight in the first place...
You mean pay $100 to submit a game and get it on Steam for sure? I'm down with that. It's commensurate with the $99/year fee Apple charges for developers on their app stores. It would make me very happy for Steam to transition to the App Store model, where almost everything is allowed, but only the best get featured.

But $100 for Valve to deign to consider and reject your game (as with, eg, New Star Soccer)? lolno

deano2099
05-09-2012, 02:42 AM
But what if the majority of people don't want it on Steam? What if that company artificially inflated their count to 100k?

I'm still struggling to see why you would not want a game on Steam. It's not like it's in your way is it? No-one is forcing you to play it.

baby snot
05-09-2012, 02:46 AM
I can't help but think charging developers $100 to submit to Steam would have removed the necessity for Greenlight in the first place...

I can't see this being anything more then a stop gap measure for the time being.

Greenlight is clearly more then just a new submission process for game developers. Valve seem pretty happy to experiment with what are now fairly conventional social networking/marketing/crowdsourcing mechanics to improve their platform.

gundato
05-09-2012, 02:48 AM
The problem of false reviews/support has actually hit the book industry lately. With the rise in self-publishing, some writers are paying for services where, for a nominal fee, their book is sent to a bunch of "readers" who will write "reviews" on all the major sites. While there is no guarantee (my ass), said "readers" are usually VERY flattering. http://www.harryjconnolly.com/blog/?p=6822 is an interesting commentary on it that provides links and allows me to advertise an author I really like.


I'm still struggling to see why you would not want a game on Steam. It's not like it's in your way is it? No-one is forcing you to play it.

Take a look at the Android App Store. There is a LOT of garbage in there.

gundato
05-09-2012, 02:53 AM
And while I think 100 bucks is a bit much, it really isn't that bad if you think about it. Especially because, if Steam "supports" it, pretty much every other DD service will leap at it.

MS charges out the ass to use XBOX Live and go through "verification"
I don't know what Sony charges, but I imagine they charge for "verification" too

This is basically Steam charging for "verification" as it were. The only difference is that it is pending "proof" that the game will sell.

And if 100 bucks is going to make or break your development costs, it is probably best you didn't get on Steam in the first place. Hear me out. Odds are the beta testing is a very limited pool who are all fans. Look at Elemental for why that doesn't work ("Oh, that is probably a feature. I know Stardock wouldn't bugger this up. I'll ignore it") :p. So odds are a bunch of bugs and issues will be found via the Steam community. And if your development costs couldn't take a 100 dollar hit, odds are you don't have the resources to FIX those bugs. So if they are found early and people stop buying, the early adopters are boned.

trjp
05-09-2012, 03:39 AM
Just to be clear - we're not down on $100 because it's $100, we're down on it because it's a shitty stopgap solution to a situation they SHOULD have seen coming before launch and using 'charidee' to deflect criticism is a low blow.

It's also 'per game' I think - and not a once-off fee - which will deter people from listing because they have a series of games or whatever!?

The way it was before tho, you had to be stupid NOT to put your game on there - it was free publicity (at least a few hundred hits an hour!!) - it's possibly even worth $100 to do it even now (just make it look like your game isn't totally shit and you'll get somewhere!!)

Charging customers money to solve YOUR problem and YOUR inability just to moderate content is still fucking cheeky tho. As LewieP said in Twitter, people would do it for you - peer review (review by other developers) works well for XBLIG and so on - many good solutions exist which don't mistake wealth for talent.

I'd made that mistake with Valve upto today - ah well, hey ho.

trjp
05-09-2012, 03:48 AM
Dejobaan are offering to lend $100 to people who want to submit games to Steam (see Twitter)

I've suggested they simply setup an account and post anything they like on behalf of the developers - that way Steam get less money - but then, of course, they're doing Valve's job for them!!

If I step-back from this for a second I'm just amazed we've gotten where we are in less than a week. Steam has gone from 'walled garden' to "armoured fortress with a pay-to-peek window" and I don't think that's improved it in ANY way for ANYone.

I really had hoped Steam would become more interesting with this and the non-game content and stuff - but there's a really grimy and soiled aspect to this which is worse than some of the games on Greenlight :)

baby snot
05-09-2012, 04:48 AM
Trjp you're overreacting. No one really has much of an idea of what's going on behind the scenes. Greenlight could have been flooded with submissions from crapware publishers trying to get the dozens of shitty titles they own listed. The fact that changes are being implemented within a short time frame is a positive sign. And stopgaps usually are ugly. That's why it's so obviously a stopgap and not the end times like the way you're carrying on suggests. Remember, it's only been a week if that.

Stardog
05-09-2012, 05:34 AM
I can't help but think charging developers $100 to submit to Steam would have removed the necessity for Greenlight in the first place...
I thought that too. And if they don't want to go the full app store model because of the influx of trash, they could create a seperate section in the Library called "Steam Underground". 10k+ sales would get your moved into Steam proper.

Before 10k sales, your game wouldn't be listed in the main store, but you'd get to use the Steam platform.

soldant
05-09-2012, 05:58 AM
Take a look at the Android App Store. There is a LOT of garbage in there.
Exactly. Hell even the iOS App Store, with its stricter requirements, has a lot of trash. People are complaining about having to wade through shit on Greenlight as it is. That said, there are plenty of crap games on Steam, so maybe it's a moot point in the long run.

TechnicalBen
05-09-2012, 09:39 AM
Wow. They took on my advice. Changed the thumbs up/down to "buy or not". :D
Wonder if I'd stand a chance getting a job there... ;)

r3dknight
05-09-2012, 09:43 AM
These 'submission' fees keeps the entry real. No more trolling trash. It helps the legit entry get more views and filter away the trash. Something I wanted so badly.

I don't see why this is a bad idea. Oh you want free ? Enjoy the joke entries.
And if you think $100 is too much to get some exposure on Steam and hopefully be featured / at least gets people talking about it - then you're in the wrong line of business. You should try door to door, it's cheaper amirite?

Jesus_Phish
05-09-2012, 10:04 AM
$100 to keep trash out sounds reasonable.

Having the "no" vote remove it from your sight sounds reasonable. Having it affect the prospect of a project sounds retarded and I think Steam will cop on to that if they haven't already. No reason that because 10K people want a game and 30K don't doesn't mean it shouldn't be sold.

trjp
05-09-2012, 10:23 AM
Trjp you're overreacting. No one really has much of an idea of what's going on behind the scenes.

Including Valve, I think ;)

My 'irk' is that releasing a system where ANYONE could upload a "game" - with no verification or moderation of what they uploaded - was naive in the extreme. To turn around within days and say "Oh - that didn't work so now we're going to ask for money" is a lazy and shoddy workaround (and using charity to deflect criticism is low).

They talk endlessly about their 'community' but they're not really doing anything with it. The 'community' has it within their power to create a peer review team - their community actually weeded-out the stupid titles pretty bloody quickly anyway AND the rate of those appearing was in decline (70 a day at first - down to just a handful yesterday).

The voting system remains opaque (it was positively obscure before - why don't they ENGAGE their users instead of treating them like lab rats. They'd not release a game which was half-baked and then fix it as they went along, would they??

Then there's the fact that to hit '100%', a game (currently) requires around 2 million unique visitors which is an astonishing requirement (one about 80% of their current catalog probably couldn't pull-off). Yes, they can vary it BUT that's not 'empowering their community' and unlike their willingness to trade common-sense for cash, they're not rushing into doing that are they?

I don't think I'm overreacting - I just get annoyed when I see something I could do way better being done so poorly by people who have the resources to do far, far better.

trjp
05-09-2012, 10:25 AM
$100 to keep trash out sounds reasonable.

Not $200 or $500? Hell, to get a 'pass' from Greenlight a game will needs around 2 million unique visitors, - even if they only sell 10% of that at $10 that's 2 million bucks (before commissions and taxes) so why not $100,000??? :)

It's not the sum of money - it's the fact they've decided to use money as a measure of 'quality' which never EVER ends well.

Jesus_Phish
05-09-2012, 10:33 AM
Not $200 or $500? Hell, to get a 'pass' from Greenlight a game will needs around 2 million unique visitors, - even if they only sell 10% of that at $10 that's 2 million bucks (before commissions and taxes) so why not $100,000??? :)

It's not the sum of money - it's the fact they've decided to use money as a measure of 'quality' which never EVER ends well.

They're not using money as a measure of quality. They're using it as a deterrent from me or you or anyone going to Greenlight and making a "HALO VS HALF LIFE 3 SUPER STREET FIGHTER TEKKEN MARIO 64 TEAM RACING" troll project, because trolls are less likely to be willing to spend $100 on that as an actual dev who want's the chance to get his game on Steam.

trjp
05-09-2012, 11:22 AM
They're not using money as a measure of quality. They're using it as a deterrent from me or you or anyone going to Greenlight and making a "HALO VS HALF LIFE 3 SUPER STREET FIGHTER TEKKEN MARIO 64 TEAM RACING" troll project, because trolls are less likely to be willing to spend $100 on that as an actual dev who want's the chance to get his game on Steam.

The 'community' fixed all of those by reporting them tho - around 2-300 of them since it launched.

The fact they decided after a few days that it wasn't good enough than the 'community' would weed out the crap speaks volumes to me...

johnki
05-09-2012, 11:40 AM
Meh, they have made moving around Greenlight an absolute hell. The "generate new list" button doesn't work unless there are already open slots from where you have rated games that are in your current list. The only way you can get a new list is to change the filters, and even then, it seems like you get relatively the same list, only with the genres you don't want to rate filtered out. And then, on top of that, you get one page, and one page only. So you get to view what it decides to give you and ONLY what it decides to give you. There's not even a way to go through the entire list before rating what it gave you.

Jesus_Phish
05-09-2012, 11:50 AM
The 'community' fixed all of those by reporting them tho - around 2-300 of them since it launched.

The fact they decided after a few days that it wasn't good enough than the 'community' would weed out the crap speaks volumes to me...

And this stops crap from getting there in the first place. I fail to see how this is a major issue for anyone. Valve make no money on it, users don't have to waste their time reporting fake/troll projects and devs don't have to worry about fake/troll projects taking up any visual space for any amount of time?

It also means more people might use it. I don't use the android app store because of the volume of crap in it. I wouldn't use greenlight if it had the same volume of crap in it. I only want to view potential projects that will actually possible come to light and not have to see fake projects in place of real ones. I'm sure devs also feel the same. They'd want you to see their project in your list/on the page and not "half life 3 for realsies!"

And the money goes to a charity, which is an added bonus.

deano2099
05-09-2012, 12:20 PM
Take a look at the Android App Store. There is a LOT of garbage in there.

But I can sort by rating. No big deal.

Do people really browse Steam like a store-front deciding what to buy? I've only done that during sales...

The fee is just bad in principle. It's equivalent to a pay-to-play gig, where the promoter doesn't even turn up and just asks the audience how you did.

Jesus_Phish
05-09-2012, 12:29 PM
But I can sort by rating. No big deal.

Do people really browse Steam like a store-front deciding what to buy? I've only done that during sales...

The fee is just bad in principle. It's equivalent to a pay-to-play gig, where the promoter doesn't even turn up and just asks the audience how you did.

But that doesn't work when the rating system is being used to determine not what you're going to buy, but what' you'd like to buy if available. If everyone was to sort greenlight by rating, only the top games would ever be seen. New games wouldn't get a look in because everyone will just say "oh I'll just sort the trash out by viewing top rated". So yes, for a dev it is a big deal. Especially when ratings can be faked or influenced in other ways.

Look at what happened in the King of the Web contest. TB ruined everyone because he was able to command so many voters. Now imagine if he decided he wanted a game on steam. Guess what's going to the top? Now imagine others like him also decide they want games. Suddenly the top rated is host to popularity contests of personalities/devs and if we removed the $100 entry fee, the perhaps lesser known projects that could be really good are left swimming amongst the trash.

*EDIT*

If I could pay to play a gig that would put me on a stage comparable to Steam in the music world and it was a reasonable amount I would do it.

TillEulenspiegel
05-09-2012, 12:44 PM
Oh, I was so enthusiastic about Greenlight. This $100 fee changes my mind completely; they have no idea what the fuck they're doing. Read this section that's still up in their FAQ, and tell me that's ever going to happen now:

Can I post my game concept or early builds?

Absolutely! We encourage you to post information about your game as early in the development process as you are comfortable with. Greenlight will let you define whether you are posting your game as a concept/early build or as a playable game that is nearing completion.
A nominal $10-20 fee to weed out spam, fine. But $100, fucking seriously? And the people who are already in don't have to pay?

There had better be some major changes over the next couple months. Like if community approval becomes a small part of the process, only 1000 votes required rather than 100k. I'm making a niche game that could never get near 100k sales, and at this point it's really not clear what Valve wants on their store besides more of the same.

soldant
05-09-2012, 12:57 PM
The 'community' fixed all of those by reporting them tho - around 2-300 of them since it launched.

The fact they decided after a few days that it wasn't good enough than the 'community' would weed out the crap speaks volumes to me...
But downvotes and things are bad apparently, because they're open to abuse. But it's cases like this where there's a really shit idea that should be allowed to downvote etc. Kind of like a shit Kickstarter attracts bad press/criticism.

Really the entire thing is flawed. Any sort of voting shouldn't be allowed.

deano2099
05-09-2012, 01:15 PM
But that doesn't work when the rating system is being used to determine not what you're going to buy, but what' you'd like to buy if available.
Wasn't talking about Greenlight. Just saying it wouldn't be the end of the world if everything was on Steam. Actually it'd make little to no difference to me.


If I could pay to play a gig that would put me on a stage comparable to Steam in the music world and it was a reasonable amount I would do it.

ENEMY OF MUSIC/COMEDY

But no, you wouldn't be. You'd be paying $100 to pay a play-to-pay gig which will lead to getting play on a stage comparable to Steam if you bring 100,000 mates. So this is worse than p2p in the music/comedy world and that's already fucking disgraceful (see: http://www.pearshapedcomedy.com/CRAPP.htm).

Here's an original fix:

You can only submit a game if you have a demo
You can download and play the demo through Steam
You can only vote on the game if you've played the demo for at least 10 minutes / to the end.


Done, sorted. Steam's current content team can check the demos for malicious code / trolling before they go live, if you need to charge $5-10 for than then fine.

NathanH
05-09-2012, 01:18 PM
ENEMY OF MUSIC/COMEDY

You forgot the bold! Enemy of hyperbole!

trjp
05-09-2012, 01:24 PM
I was just hacking through the Greenlight code to find it's voting function (don't ask - nothing naughty - Greasemonkeying about) and I came across the code for Steam Administrators to 'automatically promote this game to accepted status'.

What made me laugh is the comment which precedes it - which says


// I know what you're thinking. No, it won't work.

Made my day

p.s. further down there's code for pushing a game to 'Pending' status and it's commented as


// Still won't work.

trjp
05-09-2012, 01:30 PM
But downvotes and things are bad apparently, because they're open to abuse. But it's cases like this where there's a really shit idea that should be allowed to downvote etc. Kind of like a shit Kickstarter attracts bad press/criticism.

Really the entire thing is flawed. Any sort of voting shouldn't be allowed.

I agree the latter point - voting systems are crap unless they are VERY clearly defined as it

"Do you want a kick in the plums - YES or NO"

Not

"How much do you want a kick in the Plums - Choose Platypus / Ocelot / Banana / Bapple"

which is how much of the web does it.

For 'downvote' we should be saying "Report this as being a naughty thing" button and a sheer weight of people hammering that should give you a big clue that someone uploaded "Jew Simulator" - again (of course they'd not mind the $100 *off-colour joke ends*)

Unaco
05-09-2012, 02:26 PM
I approve of the fee. It's going to cut out the nonsense submissions, the 'troll' submissions, the scams, the rip offs, the 'not my game but it should be on Steam' submissions, the ones that consist of concept art and a plea for a coder. The ones that had no hope, and served no useful purpose (for Valve, or customers, really). A lot of people said how much stuff there was on there, right at the start... most of it kipple. The vast, vast majority of that will be gone now... making it much easier to get at and look at the serious stuff.

$100 might be a little steep... $50 would have worked, no doubt. What's the entry fee for the IGF these days? Something similar to that would likely work.

In the end, I don't want to see more Indies on Steam... I want to see good Indies on Steam. And the Storefront is exactly that... it's a Shop, not a Gallery.

trjp
05-09-2012, 02:39 PM
I'll never understand how people can look at a sum of money and attempt to decide is it's "too much" or "too little" when it's different for everyone. Our problem is that money is a lazy (and ineffective - iTunes charges $99 a year and it's full of shit) solution to ensuring quality - not the sum itself.

In other news, Greenlight LITE is BACK baby - bit less interesting than before but we can still watch as Project Zomboid gets to 99% and then loses 98% of those ratings down the back of the sofa... ;)

http://www.shrewdlogarithm.com/greenlight.htm

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