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View Full Version : Guild Wars 2 and It's Schizophrenic Exploit Policy



R-F
02-09-2012, 07:24 PM
I recently got banned from Guild Wars 2 from buying items for a vendor in game that ArenaNet retroactively decided were too cheap and decided to then raise the prices and ban everyone who bought too many items off them. This was despite people using similar exploits earlier in the week not having any measures taken against their accounts. Also was the fact that I flagged that there might be something wrong with the vendor in a ticket to ArenaNet.

Now they've told me that I can get my account only suspended for 72 hours, but the ticket I sent in several days ago has had no one touch it or approve it, so I'm stuck just waiting to be unsuspended, unable to play a game I paid 60 for.

Again, yesterday / today, it was done again, but no one who did it has had any measures taken against their accounts. No suspensions, no permabans, no nothing, just people running around doubling their gold every few minutes and destroying the economy.

I got banned for exploiting because it "might damage the economy", despite the fact that, at the time, there was no trading post, mail wasn't working and there is no way to trade with other players. Now that the trading post and mailing is back up, there are people running around selling items that they have used exploits to gain on there, but they are having no action taken against them.

ArenaNet's exploit policy is all over the show, and it's ruining the game. They need to either ban everyone who does anything that could be considered an exploit (Hello shutting down the Mists->LA->City route, which is an exploit that stops city / world travel costing very much) or unban and recompense the people that were banned or suspended for buying things off a vendor on a mistake ArenaNet made.

This is absolutely disgusting. Would it be possible to get some RPS coverage on the way ArenaNet is treating it's paying customers?

jnx
02-09-2012, 07:31 PM
You did exploit the vendor though... Submitting a ticket about the thing just confirms that you knew there was something wrong with it.

Nalano
02-09-2012, 07:36 PM
They didn't "retroactively decide" that the prices were 1% of the intended prices. They misplaced a decimal point during an update and people took advantage.

The trading post has been up for some, and people could exploit the mystic forge with the (incredibly cheap) materials with the intent of flooding the market when it would be up for all.

Being that the game is just getting started, large influxes of this kind of shit would have outsized effects in the gameplay right when people are getting the feel of the game, so it's shoot first, ask questions later.

My suggestion is: Suck it up. The people who have a right to complain are the ones who were hacked and have to wait for ArenaNet to put out this fire before they can go on to reinstate their accounts.

R-F
02-09-2012, 07:38 PM
They didn't "retroactively decide" that the prices were 1% of the intended prices. They misplaced a decimal point during an update and people took advantage.

The trading post has been up for some, and people could exploit the mystic forge with the (incredibly cheap) materials with the intent of flooding the market when it would be up for all.

Being that the game is just getting started, large influxes of this kind of shit would have outsized effects in the gameplay right when people are getting the feel of the game, so it's shoot first, ask questions later.

My suggestion is: Suck it up. The people who have a right to complain are the ones who were hacked and have to wait for ArenaNet to put out this fire before they can go on to reinstate their accounts.

And then they retroactively decided it was an exploit. Nalano, I implore you to first learn what the words retroactive and exploit mean before carrying on in this thread.

First off, no, the trading post was up for no one at that point. Secondly, it has been going on for the past two days with FAR worse reprecussions since it was possible to make more money selling the items than buying them.

My suggestion is: Please stop being a dick.


You did exploit the vendor though... Submitting a ticket about the thing just confirms that you knew there was something wrong with it.

What a ridiculous concept. Like I said, there're "exploits" that're endemic, should I stop using them, too?

Brit89
02-09-2012, 07:38 PM
I bought 4 of those Karma weapons, not knowing there was a mistake on the price or people were exploiting this..... I'm still in the game. Like jnx said, you wrote a ticket, after buying the items, knowing there was something wrong.

I sick of people posting threads about this, there's a few upset users over at PCG about this as well... they all feel like they've been cheated or abused. Honestly, it's just lies. People exploited KNOWINGLY, and those people got banned... with AN giving you guys another chance.

R-F
02-09-2012, 07:42 PM
I bought 4 of those Karma weapons, not knowing there was a mistake on the price or people were exploiting this..... I'm still in the game. Like jnx said, you wrote a ticket, after buying the items, knowing there was something wrong.

Which is even worse.

Exploits aren't about magnitude, they're about whether people exploited. You exploited, why shouldn't you be banned for it? I exploited and reported it to bring ArenaNet's attention to a potential issue, why should I be banned for it?

EDIT: This is all beyond the point. My point is that in the past day or so there has been rampant exploiting going on and nothing is being done about it, despite the instant permabans on anyone who "exploited" the karma weapon vendors. I guess ArenaNet only wants to make an example instead of actually upholding their policy.

gundato
02-09-2012, 07:47 PM
No, if anything, ArenaNet made their policy clear. Exploits that harm the community/game/other players are bad. Exploits that benefit the player without harming the rest are tolerable. That is why people who just grabbed stuff for themselves and maybe a friend are okay.
And while there may be arguments on where the threshold lies, I don't think anyone can, with a straight face, say "I think people should not be punished for trying to flood the market and abuse the system"

So if you see a shortcut you can hop over to get past a mountain, no harm will come to your account. If you use that exploit to start flooding the market with super loot (basically what happened with TOR) or to bring mobs over to wipe out newbie village, that is something else.

I would actually be interested in just how many of these you purchased and what your rationale was.

R-F
02-09-2012, 07:50 PM
So if you see a shortcut you can hop over to get past a mountain, no harm will come to your account. If you use that exploit to start flooding the market with super loot (basically what happened with TOR) or to bring mobs over to wipe out newbie village, that is something else.

Which is what has happened over the past few days. It was actually far worse than anything I did.

Basically, these people bought items from their Order's vendors for very cheap, put them in the mystic forge and made very expensive items then sold them on the trading post, easily making back their money. They did this repeatedly and double or even quadrupled the amount of money they put in.


I would actually be interested in just how many of these you purchased and what your rationale was.

I don't know. ArenaNet hasn't contacted me, has refused to reply to anything I've said on Reddit and has generally been like a stinted lover.

gundato
02-09-2012, 07:52 PM
You need ArenaNet to tell you how many items you purchased at the exploit price you reported? You have no recollection of how many times you clicked 'buy"? And you don't even remember WHY you clicked buy X times?

Is there something more to this story? Were other people on your account? Did you bad-touch a smurf?

R-F
02-09-2012, 07:57 PM
You need ArenaNet to tell you how many items you purchased at the exploit price you reported? You have no recollection of how many times you clicked 'buy"? And you don't even remember WHY you clicked buy X times?

Is there something more to this story? Were other people on your account? Did you bad-touch a smurf?

How aggressive can you be? :D Sorry you're a fanboy, please get over it and stop trying to derail the thread.

Nalano
02-09-2012, 08:13 PM
How aggressive can you be? :D Sorry you're a fanboy, please get over it and stop trying to derail the thread.

Dude. If you can't remember how many time you mashed the "buy" button, it's likely because you were mashing it many, many times.

If you don't tell us the whole story, we have to assume the problem is you.

Brit89
02-09-2012, 08:14 PM
@R-F: I didn't buy loads to break into mats, or to resell or anything like that. I bought them with the intention of using them for myself. Had I known prior to purchasing it that the prices were a mistake and people have been exploiting it, I would not have bought them. But I didn't know.

They're banning people for major exploitation. Me buying 4 weapons to use for my character and again, not to break down for mats or resell, to AN is tolerable.

If you need to know why I bought 4: Scepter + Pistol for weapons loadout 1, Staff for 2, and Trident for underwater. I'm currently, 10 levels afterwards, still using those said weapons for myself.

FriendlyFire
02-09-2012, 08:17 PM
Dude. If you can't remember how many time you mashed the "buy" button, it's likely because you were mashing it many, many times.

If you don't tell us the whole story, we have to assume the problem is you.

Do you really need to know more when the first reaction is "lol fanboy"?

Barnox
02-09-2012, 08:17 PM
So, back on the rails of "I did an exploit and I got banned, moan about ArenaNet with me"...]

How do you know people are exploiting still now? Or that nothing is being done?
And just because the trading post wasn't up then doesn't mean you couldn't just wait for it to come up, then flood the economy with all your exploit-gained goods.

Nalano
02-09-2012, 08:22 PM
Do you really need to know more when the first reaction is "lol fanboy"?

R-F's whole schtick has been "I hate games" for months now. It's sort of a permutation of the theme.

R-F
02-09-2012, 08:25 PM
So, back on the rails of "I did an exploit and I got banned, moan about ArenaNet with me"...]

How do you know people are exploiting still now? Or that nothing is being done?
And just because the trading post wasn't up then doesn't mean you couldn't just wait for it to come up, then flood the economy with all your exploit-gained goods.

Because it has been being posted on Reddit for about two days and they've shut the vendors for the items down (which they could've done with the karma weapons vendor, but didn't?).


Dude. If you can't remember how many time you mashed the "buy" button, it's likely because you were mashing it many, many times.

If you don't tell us the whole story, we have to assume the problem is you.

Actually, I think it was around the 180 mark, which is nowhere near as bad as it sounds. But that's just an educated guess, it might've been less or more.


R-F's whole schtick has been "I hate games" for months now. It's sort of a permutation of the theme.

I love games, I hate game companies. I wish people would distinguish between the two.

Tres
02-09-2012, 08:33 PM
That's interesting. When there was a market crash in GW1 and ectoplasm and everything prices went to something like 2% of their market value and some lucky people got incredibly rich within minutes, they didn't do anything at all IIRC.

Mohorovicic
02-09-2012, 08:38 PM
Do you really need to know more when the first reaction is "lol fanboy"?

To be fair, it was gundato

FriendlyFire
02-09-2012, 08:54 PM
@Mohorovicic: Whatever you think of somebody, devolving to ad hominems or variants thereof add absolutely nothing to the conversation and, frankly, make you look like you have no case.

@Tres: Was the market crash due to an exploit or bug, or merely an event that happens in just about any capitalistic economy? I don't think I was around when it happened, so this is an honest question.

RakeShark
02-09-2012, 08:59 PM
And this is why I have a TF2 Halo hat.

unruly
02-09-2012, 09:25 PM
Actually, I think it was around the 180 mark, which is nowhere near as bad as it sounds. But that's just an educated guess, it might've been less or more.

You bought, by your own admission, nearly 200 of the item in question for the sole purpose of exploiting it to make a profit. And you don't believe that you deserve some form of punishment? For the karma vendor issue they were banning people with 1/3 of your purchases. Which you knew about yourself, and acknowledged in the other GW2 thread! After that happened you should have been thinking "Hey, I can buy this item for less than its sell-back price? Better not touch that, or at least not in any quantity." But no, you thought "Hey, that's a sweet deal! I'll take 500!" It makes it even worse that you, again by your own admission, recognized the fact that something was wrong and yet you still did it anyways and to the extent that you did.

I have absolutely no sympathy at all for you. In fact, allow me to direct you to my suggested punishment scale for situations like this, which I posted in the other GW2 thread (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?5658-In-this-thread-I-squee-about-Guild-Wars-2&p=184077&viewfull=1#post184077) when people were complaining about the bans meted out for the karma weapon exploit. I have a feeling that you'll appreciate the fact that you're able to get just a 72-hour ban as opposed to what I suggest, which would see you getting at least a full week ban, losing all your crafting materials, and having your in-game funds reduced by the correct vendor sale price of the quantity of items you bought. So you'd be out for a week, have to farm all your crafting materials again, and you'd most likely be bankrupt.

So, again, you get no sympathy from me. You were aware of what you were doing, yet you still did it anyways.

Heliocentric
02-09-2012, 09:31 PM
I won't be touching thus until it seems the policy has burned the devs fingers and they learned from it.

You don't ban customers when your intern fucks up.

R-F
02-09-2012, 09:34 PM
You bought, by your own admission, nearly 200 of the item in question for the sole purpose of exploiting it to make a profit. And you don't believe that you deserve some form of punishment? For the karma vendor issue they were banning people with 1/3 of your purchases. Which you knew about yourself, and acknowledged in the other GW2 thread! After that happened you should have been thinking "Hey, I can buy this item for less than its sell-back price? Better not touch that, or at least not in any quantity." But no, you thought "Hey, that's a sweet deal! I'll take 500!" It makes it even worse that you, again by your own admission, recognized the fact that something was wrong and yet you still did it anyways and to the extent that you did.

I have absolutely no sympathy at all for you. In fact, allow me to direct you to my suggested punishment scale for situations like this, which I posted in the other GW2 thread (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?5658-In-this-thread-I-squee-about-Guild-Wars-2&p=184077&viewfull=1#post184077) when people were complaining about the bans meted out for the karma weapon exploit. I have a feeling that you'll appreciate the fact that you're able to get just a 72-hour ban as opposed to what I suggest, which would see you getting at least a full week ban, losing all your crafting materials, and having your in-game funds reduced by the correct vendor sale price of the quantity of items you bought. So you'd be out for a week, have to farm all your crafting materials again, and you'd most likely be bankrupt.

So, again, you get no sympathy from me. You were aware of what you were doing, yet you still did it anyways.

I was aware of what I was doing when I was playing about in a game I purchased?

Think of what you are suggesting. You are acting like I committed a real life crime. You really need to get some sense of scale before being this ridiculous.

unruly
02-09-2012, 10:00 PM
You need to stop trying to play the victim when you know what ANet's policy is on stuff like this. They banned people for exploiting a nearly identical exploit, which you knew about them doing, and then you went and did the same thing elsewhere. And you expected that in your case it would be overlooked and that everything would be just fine for you. So yes, you knew that you were exploiting a bug in the game for profit.

And I've got a sense of scale. If you'd notice, I'm not calling for you to be executed, imprisoned, or even a cash fine. I'm saying that you deserved the temporary ban that you got for willingly breaking the terms of service that you agreed to when you first logged on to the game(Not even my punishment suggestions mention a permaban outside of botting). It's pretty well spelled out in there that if you exploit the game, they reserve the right to take action against you. And on top of that they've been warning people with their "State of the Game" updates on the main site, which are also listed in the news panel of the GW2 launcher, not to exploit any bugs that they find.

Oh, and before you go into crap about ToS's and EULA's not being legally binding, the only one that the argument applies to is the EULA's because it's considered a licensing contract. The Terms of Service are basically membership rules to the GW2 club, which is just like membership rules for any other club. If the gym rules say you can be kicked out for picking your nose while using the treadmill, then don't pick your nose on the treadmill. And if you do pick your nose on the treadmill, don't whine to me when you get kicked out of the gym because it said in the gym rulebook that picking your nose on the treadmill was explicitly forbidden.

gundato
02-09-2012, 10:08 PM
Pretty much, yeah.

RF purchased a crapton of the items with the sole extent of abusing the economy
RF realized it was an exploit
RF did it anyway




Think of what you are suggesting. You are acting like I committed a real life crime. You really need to get some sense of scale before being this ridiculous.
And all ArenaNet did was temporarily ban you from a game. You are acting like they are ruining your life and are evil. You really need to get some sense of scale before being this ridiculous.

Nalano
02-09-2012, 10:35 PM
Actually, I think it was around the 180 mark

BAHAHA HAHA HAHAHAHAHahahahaaa.

You got what you deserved.

R-F
02-09-2012, 10:38 PM
BAHAHA HAHA HAHAHAHAHahahahaaa.

You got what you deserved.

Actually, it's not as much as it seems. About 20 of those were for my personal usage.

4 of them go into each Mystic Forge, and I was trying to see what the best quality item I could get out of it was.

Therefore:-
160/4=40
40/4=10
10/4=2 + 2 spare.

It wasn't even the best level 80 gear I saw.


Pretty much, yeah.

RF purchased a crapton of the items with the sole extent of abusing the economy
RF realized it was an exploit
RF did it anyway



And all ArenaNet did was temporarily ban you from a game. You are acting like they are ruining your life and are evil. You really need to get some sense of scale before being this ridiculous.


This is you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIVHNylH1Mk

duff
02-09-2012, 11:01 PM
RF purchased a crapton of the items with the sole extent of abusing the economy
RF realized it was an exploit
RF did it anyway





This. You submitted a ticket and clearly realised that it was an exploit, then you went and bought 180 of them. Did you not expect there to be consequences?

ambing1
02-09-2012, 11:14 PM
You did exploit the vendor though... Submitting a ticket about the thing just confirms that you knew there was something wrong with it.


i agree. i think that's the basis why arenanet banned you. banning normally happens when users continue to use the exploit after knowing that it's disadvantageous to others.

R-F
02-09-2012, 11:24 PM
i agree. i think that's the basis why arenanet banned you. banning normally happens when users continue to use the exploit after knowing that it's disadvantageous to others.

Ah, right.

Never report possible exploits ever again.

Got it.

EDIT: No, seriously, those of you using this argument are fucking ridiculous. You're saying that I should never report an exploit because it might get me banned because I flagged that it might be an exploit. Let's say it's not an exploit, other users use it and it leaves me in the dust. That's ridiculous. Think through what you're saying before you spout bullshit, please.

Sketch
02-09-2012, 11:33 PM
No, he's quite clearly saying that if you report an exploit, you are obviously acknowledging the fact that it is an exploit. And you used it.

pakoito
02-09-2012, 11:37 PM
R-F is back to his nagging business. Now with more typos.

MOKKA
02-09-2012, 11:37 PM
(...), and it's ruining the game (...)

Oh how I missed these statements! Although I had my money on people whining about a balance update to bring up this phrase.

Some things just never change.

To be a bit more precise on the topic:

Sure you bought the game and if it was a single player game, you certainly could do whatever you want in the game. But since you were playing a persistent multiplayer game, you have to consider what harm your actions could do towards other players.
I don't know much about this exploit (I'm don't pay attention to such things as ingame money), but apparently what you did, could've effected the ingame economy and therefore the amount of fun other people (who also paid money) could have in this game.
You see, those people who didn't used this exploit, or weren't even aware of it are also part of the equation here. Sure it sucks for you, but what's the alternative? Letting everyone do what they want? This almost certainly would harm the game way more then when you ban those players who use this exploit.
It's always interesting to see how little people care about what harm their actions could have towards other peoples experiences as long as they get some kind of benefit from it.

P.S.: It does not suprise me how ArenNet reacted here. I can recall at least two occasions in GW1 where they reacted in a similar matter, also with a lot of people complaining who really deserved to get banned.

mizzu
02-09-2012, 11:56 PM
You're saying that I should never report an exploit because it might get me banned because I flagged that it might be an exploit. Let's say it's not an exploit, other users use it and it leaves me in the dust. That's ridiculous. Think through what you're saying before you spout bullshit, please.

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have been banned if you had not used the exploit, and that's the point. From what people are saying here, you did so quite heavily too, even in comparison to other guys. I think that's what got you banned, and not the fact that you reported.

Also, real life analogy: If you go to a drug dealer and buy yourself a shitton of drugs then go to the police with a joint in your mouth saying "this guy is breaking the law by selling drugs to people. To me for example!", the you should expect to get in some trouble too.

deano2099
03-09-2012, 12:33 AM
...

Yes, in this case, R_F is guilty and arguably got what he deserved. He admitted to us he knew it was an exploit, he practically admitted to ArenaNet he knew it was an exploit by reporting it too. And these threads always degenerate in to people judging the OP, declaring they have 'no sympathy' for him and he got what he deserved.

Thing is, I'm fairly sure not everyone being banned admitted to ArenaNet they knew what they were doing was an exploit. And sure, most people banned probably knew exactly what they were doing. But ArenaNet can't know that for sure. They're basing the bans on their best guess, not on proof.

And that's the larger problem here, they're doling out punishments (and that's what this is, as opposed to say just removing the things and anything the players did with them, which is just a bug fix) on their assumption of guilt. Maybe that's fine in this instance, because you happen to agree with the assumption they are making. But I promise you, you will not always agree with that assumption in the future. There will be times when you think differently, when you disagree that a ban was reasonable. It might even happen when you get banned, because you did something that you should have known was an exploit and just didn't realise. And no-one will have any sympathy for you because you've already accepted that ArenaNet can ban anyone they suspect of exploiting with no grounds of appeal.

I don't think anyone should be banned for doing something that's within the bounds of the game as defined by its systems. Sure, if it's a bug they shouldn't be allowed to gain an advantage from it, and their stuff should be rolled back if necessary, but they shouldn't be punished.

victory
03-09-2012, 12:37 AM
So it's a typical MMO? Grind a lot and you are the best player, grind more than that and you get banned.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/130976/soapbox_world_of_warcraft_teaches_.php?page=1

dan.
03-09-2012, 01:19 AM
Meh, I had a whole post brewing but I'm kinda drunk. I've only just got the game so I missed the whole "exploit" thing, but for me what it boils down to is: do I think 3000 people should be permanently banned because a programmer used a . instead of a ,? Fuck no. Does walking up to a vendor and buying items from that vendor equal an exploit (no matter the price)? Again, fuck no. Anet should have manned up, said "We made a mistake" and deleted the offending items from peoples accounts. No harm, no foul.

Also @ Tres: I don't remember that. I DO remember Anet banning people over glitching items into Pre-Searing and duping Armbraces.

EDIT: Quoting this because it makes more sense than my mumblings.


I don't think anyone should be banned for doing something that's within the bounds of the game as defined by its systems. Sure, if it's a bug they shouldn't be allowed to gain an advantage from it, and their stuff should be rolled back if necessary, but they shouldn't be punished.

FriendlyFire
03-09-2012, 01:49 AM
People who are obviously taking advantage of a broken feature should be expected to repeat this behavior at every possible opportunity. Best take care of it now than delay it until an even worse exploit pops up in the wild.

Also, 180 for personal usage? You have to be kidding, right? Personal usage would imply at most 10, give or take a few, assuming you bought a bunch of character slots and wanted one for each character, or that you wanted to pass them on to friends. 180 is just... This isn't a consumable! You shouldn't even be able to get 180 of any level adequate item within any reasonable amount of time, let alone so easily and cheaply!

That you're even arguing the point is frankly astounding. You exploited, you got punished, news at 11.

deano2099
03-09-2012, 03:11 AM
People who are obviously taking advantage of a broken feature should be expected to repeat this behavior at every possible opportunity.

'Obvious' is subjective. In this case it's dependent on the genre familiarity and general intelligence of the person using the exploit against that of the person making the judgement to ban them. Just because that happens to coincide with your view today, doesn't mean it will tomorrow.

gundato
03-09-2012, 03:18 AM
'Obvious' is subjective. In this case it's dependent on the genre familiarity and general intelligence of the person using the exploit against that of the person making the judgement to ban them. Just because that happens to coincide with your view today, doesn't mean it will tomorrow.

In this case, I think it is fair to say that someone who amassed enough karma to buy enough items to get nailed for the exploit had a pretty firm grasp of the game and genre. That's why the people who only bought a few (so far looks like under 4) are okay.

Also, I wasn't online for the event in question, but I suspect most map-chats were full of people saying "Wow, that is a huge discount. That has to be a bug!"

I understand what you are saying, but RF is definitely a case of "Deserves the ban" and ArenaNet's handling of this has been fairly decent (I would prefer them to announce the "Make your case' on their actual website, but whatever). Maybe there might be problems in the future, but it is generally a good idea to give benefit of the doubt. The "slippery slope" argument is weak, at best.

unruly
03-09-2012, 03:55 AM
In this case, I think it is fair to say that someone who amassed enough karma to buy enough items to get nailed for the exploit had a pretty firm grasp of the game and genre. That's why the people who only bought a few (so far looks like under 4) are okay.

Also, I wasn't online for the event in question, but I suspect most map-chats were full of people saying "Wow, that is a huge discount. That has to be a bug!"

I understand what you are saying, but RF is definitely a case of "Deserves the ban" and ArenaNet's handling of this has been fairly decent (I would prefer them to announce the "Make your case' on their actual website, but whatever). Maybe there might be problems in the future, but it is generally a good idea to give benefit of the doubt. The "slippery slope" argument is weak, at best.

To be fair, the karma weapon bug was extremely cheap and would have been easy for people who were relatively new to the game to exploit to mass numbers. I mean, the weapons cost 21 karma, which is about what I get for failing an event at level 40, so it would be easy to have the karma to buy 50 of them if all you did was heart quests without participating in any events. But at the same time, there's no actual gear pieces that are that cheap at any point(as far as I've seen at least, the only stuff that cheap is stuff like cooking mats). Because of that fact alone it should have been readily apparent to anyone that even bothered to ever open a single karma vendor's shop screen that there was something wrong with the pricing.

The other one that I'm aware of, which I'm not sure if they've started banning/suspending for or not, is the Vigil armor set. Apparently it was selling for something like 10 silver a piece, when from what I gather it's supposed to be closer to a gold a piece, and then could be salvaged or forged into stuff that sold for much more than that. It's a higher barrier of entry to exploiting it, but it's still within reach of quite a large portion of the playerbase.

Finicky
03-09-2012, 03:58 AM
I didn't even know there was an exploit, but I'm glad they are banning people over it.

It's a shame that it's only a three day ban, economy based exploits (that are dead obvious and in numbers that weren't just for self use) should just be a permanent account ban.

Hilarious that OP bought 180 of them and is mad that he got banned.

Asshat, don't try to break the economy for the rest of us, if it were up to me you'd be permabanned.

FriendlyFire
03-09-2012, 03:58 AM
Honestly, this can all be summed up fairly succinctly: just like in real life, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't.

gundato
03-09-2012, 04:02 AM
To be fair, the karma weapon bug was extremely cheap and would have been easy for people who were relatively new to the game to exploit to mass numbers. I mean, the weapons cost 21 karma, which is about what I get for failing an event at level 40, so it would be easy to have the karma to buy 50 of them if all you did was heart quests without participating in any events. But at the same time, there's no actual gear pieces that are that cheap at any point(as far as I've seen at least, the only stuff that cheap is stuff like cooking mats). Because of that fact alone it should have been readily apparent to anyone that even bothered to ever open a single karma vendor's shop screen that there was something wrong with the pricing.

The other one that I'm aware of, which I'm not sure if they've started banning/suspending for or not, is the Vigil armor set. Apparently it was selling for something like 10 silver a piece, when from what I gather it's supposed to be closer to a gold a piece, and then could be salvaged or forged into stuff that sold for much more than that. It's a higher barrier of entry to exploiting it, but it's still within reach of quite a large portion of the playerbase.
Holy CHrist, it was 21? I thought it was 210 or even 2100. 21!?!?!

In that case, even the newbiet newb on the newb tree should have seen something wrong, and I would bet real money that map-chat was FULL of people saying "What the christ!?! Everyone, come exploit this!"

Raaritsgozilla
03-09-2012, 04:23 AM
R_F You are an idiot and got what you deserved. Stop whining.

husasa
03-09-2012, 04:25 AM
Suck it up. The people who have a right to complain are the ones who were hacked and have to wait for ArenaNet to put out this fire before they can go on to reinstate their accounts.

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R-F
03-09-2012, 06:57 AM
No, he's quite clearly saying that if you report an exploit, you are obviously acknowledging the fact that it is an exploit. And you used it.

No, he's quite clearly encouraging everyone to never report exploits and to, in fact, never play the game in case there are exploits.

hamster
03-09-2012, 06:57 AM
I agree that an "exploit" made possible by an error committed by the game devs themselves should not warrant a ban. Reversing the wealth effect is the most they should do. That would be reasonable. But a perma ban is never reasonable - that's too much power that is only exercisable - unilaterally, by the way - by one party. And that party is NOT the consumer.

On the other hand, since R-F doesn't disagree with temp banning exploiters, by his own standards, he deserved what he got.

p.s. just knew it was fishy when he said he "forgot" how many he bought lol. In fact i bet it's actually way more than 180. That's probably only half.

caljohnston
03-09-2012, 07:24 AM
Exploits indicate poor programming. The developers should fix the error and apologize to their players, not ban them.

Nalano
03-09-2012, 07:47 AM
Exploits indicate poor programming. The developers should fix the error and apologize to their players, not ban them.

"I'm sorry you were able to rob my store because an employee didn't lock up properly. No, no; I'm not going to prosecute you: In fact, keep the items. If anything, it's my fault."

Hell, looking at the Reddit replies to ArenaNet's statement (http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/z97hu/response_on_permanent_ban_ticket_felt_like/) on the event, it looks like tempbans weren't enough for some folks.

Labbes
03-09-2012, 07:48 AM
I think ArenaNet's handling of bugs/exploits in GW1 was great. If I remember correctly, there was a time when the prices for the rarest crafting materials dropped drastically (I don't know the exact reason). This pretty much affected everyone, and I believe they just did a server rollback.
Then there was a bug in PvP which made you invincible. This only happened if you did a specific string of actions. It did not affect everyone. People got banned over that, and permanently banned.
I'm not sure why you would complain over getting a 3-day ban. It sounds like the 3-day ban is in fact longer, which sucks, but I'd say be grateful you were not permanently banned.
Also they don't encourage players not to report exploits. There will always be those that do not try to gain something from abusing a bug who will report it. If you think it's report-worthy, don't exploit it. There is, and always will be, the chance of getting banned for exploiting a bug in any MMO.

caljohnston
03-09-2012, 08:18 AM
"I'm sorry you were able to rob my store because an employee didn't lock up properly. No, no; I'm not going to prosecute you: In fact, keep the items. If anything, it's my fault."

Nobody robbed anybody. If a store mislabels their prices it's their fault not yours. You're not obliged to tell them or to return the items if they ask. Real life stores apologize and take the loss, knowing that your future business and their reputation is more important.

It's okay if you have some sort of fetish wherein you prefer MMO companies threat you like a child, scum, addict and criminal at the same time, but don't force that on the rest of us.

deano2099
03-09-2012, 09:27 AM
"I'm sorry you were able to rob my store because an employee didn't lock up properly. No, no; I'm not going to prosecute you: In fact, keep the items. If anything, it's my fault."

That's a good analogy actually. Because "dont' steal stuff" is written down quite clearly in the law of most lands. If "don't buy really cheap stuff from vendors" is in the Guild Wars 2 rules then that's fair enough. But I'll wager it just says "don't use any exploits", which is the equivalent of replacing all the laws of a country with "don't do anything bad, mmm 'kay?"

Labbes
03-09-2012, 09:38 AM
That's a good analogy actually. Because "dont' steal stuff" is written down quite clearly in the law of most lands. If "don't buy really cheap stuff from vendors" is in the Guild Wars 2 rules then that's fair enough. But I'll wager it just says "don't use any exploits", which is the equivalent of replacing all the laws of a country with "don't do anything bad, mmm 'kay?"

I'd say going into an unlocked house is a better analogy. You don't even need to steal anything, it's an offense anyway. If I leave my door open, and you decide to take a peek, you better have a damn good reason for doing so. "Personal gain" certainly isn't one.
A three day ban is hardly the same thing as the real-life punishment for stealing tons of things.

kyrieee
03-09-2012, 11:48 AM
It's ArenaNet's screw up, they should just revert the profits of the people who took advantage of it and leave it at that. Personally I wouldn't want to play an MMO where I felt like I was at risk of being banned all the time. That's what I like about EVE, most of the time CCP take ownership of their own mistakes instead of blaming the players. A friend of mine recently found a way to make 2 bil ISK / hr, someone told CCP, they fixed it, no one gets banned and everyone moves on.

sendmark
03-09-2012, 12:09 PM
CCP can't afford to ban too many people, small player base and reliant on subs.

Always good to see exploiters punished.

NathanH
03-09-2012, 12:31 PM
I think anyone defending the banning of MMO players for playing the game as created is a disgrace to video gaming, but then I think MMOs like this are a disgrace to video gaming, so I guess my opinion is irrelevant.

jnx
03-09-2012, 12:36 PM
No, he's quite clearly encouraging everyone to never report exploits and to, in fact, never play the game in case there are exploits.

Did you ever consider just reporting the issue and not exploiting it? That's an option too, you know.

frightlever
03-09-2012, 12:43 PM
ArenaNet's exploit policy is all over the show, and it's ruining the game.

It's not ruining my game. I'm having a ball. Also, not exploiting.

deano2099
03-09-2012, 12:57 PM
CCP can't afford to ban too many people, small player base and reliant on subs.

Always good to see exploiters punished.

That's interesting actually. They've said before that once they decided against a subscription model, they were freed up from having to design gameplay that retained subscribers. I don't think that can entirely be divorced from the way they deal with customers: there's no downside for ANet to banning someone. They've already got their money. For someone like Blizzard or CCP, it's a different thing as if you stop a customer playing, you lose 10 a month or whatever. If WoW permabans 3000 players, they're throwing away 30,000 a month. If those people would have subscribed for a year, that's half a million down the drain.

For ArenaNet, the loss is zero. Lost revenue acted as a commercial check and balance on Blizzard and the like, ArenaNet have no such issue, and that's why this is sort of worrying. (Yes, they reverted them to temp-bans, but certainly haven't ruled out perma-bans in the future).

Utnac
03-09-2012, 01:05 PM
I havn't followed too closely, but from what I can see this is about getting banned for the Hoelbrak Cultural weapons exploit, where items were quite clearly selling far too cheaply. It seems you had to buy a heck of a lot to get banned, I myself bought 20, yes twenty, simply to see if I could. I didn't get a ban or even a warning, so if you got banned you must have bought an aweful lot.

Has there been any other bannings? I've bought a lot of low level items (in the thousands) and deconstructed them into crafting mats, seems they have now closed this loophole, but I profitted from it massively and again I've had no ban or warning (but then why should I frankly when it's been around since BWE1)

If they start banning people for the H >> Mists >> LA 'exploit' I may just leave the game though, fix it obviously if they think it needs fixing but if you're going to ban large numbers of people every time they make a mistake they're just going to start looking like a bunch of idiots.

TillEulenspiegel
03-09-2012, 01:20 PM
If they start banning people for the H >> Mists >> LA 'exploit' I may just leave the game though,
Not gonna happen. The serious exploits that have merited bans were ones that would ruin the in-game economy. If you're gaining massive amounts of gold or items or XP very quickly, you're probably being naughty. Otherwise, meh.

The Mists thing is a shortcut, not really an exploit of any kind.

Utnac
03-09-2012, 01:25 PM
Not gonna happen. The serious exploits that have merited bans were ones that would ruin the in-game economy. If you're gaining massive amounts of gold or items or XP very quickly, you're probably being naughty. Otherwise, meh.

The Mists thing is a shortcut, not really an exploit of any kind.

I agree, but I have seen several comments around about it being an exploit, and all I'm saying is that anything were to come of it other than the shortcut being hot fixed, that'd probably be enough to make me go elsewhere.

deano2099
03-09-2012, 01:39 PM
The Mists thing is a shortcut, not really an exploit of any kind.

This is the problem: if they did start banning people for this, everyone in this thread who thought the OP got what he deserved would be furious because they were banned for something that they thought clearly wasn't an exploit.

The same thing happens throughout history. If you want to get anywhere, you have to stand-up for the rights of your peers even when they're arguably abusing those rights. Even if you don't particularly like doing it. Because although you can say that ANet will never ban people for shortcuts, they still have the rights and the power to. And you've already decided it's okay for them to ban people on just suspicion of exploiting. Yet it takes being on the other side of it to actually make people care.

There's basically two options:

a) you believe, like me and the minority in this thread, that ANet should never ban people from the game for doing something within the game itself. That's not to protect people who exploit, it's to protect people who don't know better. It's to say "you have the freedom to do what you want within this set of rules (defined by the game client)".

b) you believe that ANet should ban people from the game for exploiting if they deem it to be an exploit and they deem it to be serious enough. Note that this makes ANet judge, jury and executioner.

What there isn't is option c), which the vast majority of people seem to want to pick:

c) you believe that ANet should ban people from the game for exploiting if you deem it to be an exploit and you deem it to be serious enough.

c) is impossible, because everyone will have a different definition of what an exploit is and what's serious. We're already seeing it in this thread. Some people think the original act warrants a permanent ban, some thing a temp ban is fair, some think a shortcut isn't an exploit, some thing it is. Everyone seems to be under the impression that their judgement is so incisive and accurate that ANet will always agree with them and so b) is fine. Yet it's literally impossible for you to all be right.

sendmark
03-09-2012, 02:01 PM
I think there's a missing d) in there, which is the exercise of common sense. I think anyone playing the game knows that going via mists has the tradeoff of taking a lot longer than simply teleporting, it is not an 'exploit' which carries with it clear gain nor does it overly affect other players in the game. That is wildly different from someone buying over 180 of a clearly bugged priced item to gain the upper hand in the game economy.

To try and make it as cut and dried as being For or Against Anet is silly.

Nalano
03-09-2012, 02:25 PM
Deano et al, could you explain the "but if ArenaNet did X, they're real ponces" argument when ArenaNet did not do X nor did they give any indication that they would do X?

I mean, I gather that you actually think that nobody should ever be banned for anything - which is an extreme position that even I, who have been banned from every forum I've ever posted in at least once, would not take - but I feel there is one primal truism in MMOs, in games, and in software overall:

1) Bugs are inevitable.

The goal isn't that the programmers make a bugless piece of software. That's impossible. The goal is that they discover and fix any major bugs quickly. They did. They also discovered a fair number of players who were perfectly willing to exploit any bug and destroy the brand new game economy before the game could even get off the ground.

Culling 3000 (which was lowered to 500) players in order to maintain the game for the other two million is not a bad tradeoff. Do they lose potential future sales of 500 players for the inevitable add-ons? Sure. But they keep the continued sales of everybody else. Maintaining the integrity of the accounts of people who would gladly break the game for personal gain every chance they get is of somewhat less importance than maintaining the integrity of the game.

And personally, I'm still pissed that ArenaNet is reinstating the accounts of these fuckers before they reinstate the accounts of those who got hacked.

deano2099
03-09-2012, 02:38 PM
Deano et al, could you explain the "but if ArenaNet did X, they're real ponces" argument when ArenaNet did not do X nor did they give any indication that they would do X?
Because they're reserving the rights to do X. And in this case you might think X is justified. But in other cases you won't. I'd rather X just be a thing that could never happen.


I mean, I gather that you actually think that nobody should ever be banned for anything
Not true. Anything using an external tool to cheat the game from the outside is ban-worthy. As is abusing another player. A temporary ban is also fine IF it's there purely to allow Arena Net to sort out the problems the player has caused and resolve them. I don't think it's okay as a punishment.


Culling 3000 (which was lowered to 500) players in order to maintain the game for the other two million is not a bad tradeoff.
Reverting anything they gained would likely be sufficient to make them not bother in future. Especially if they rolled back their character progress entirely to before they used the exploit (which again, I think is perfectly valid as a punishment - an in-game punishment for an in-game offence).


And personally, I'm still pissed that ArenaNet is reinstating the accounts of these fuckers before they reinstate the accounts of those who got hacked.
Why? ArenaNet wasn't hacked. The people that got hacked got hacked through using already compromised logins. Isn't it their fault if a hacker got hold of their account? Why shouldn't they be held responsible for the actions of the hacker? Hell, it's likely at least one of the banned accounts that used the exploit were being controlled by a hacker at the time. And isn't "it wasn't me, I must have been hacked" a catch-all excuse for any bad behaviour/exploiting?

Isn't it entirely fair that people who were banned because they screwed up and ArenaNet screwed up are sorted out before the people who were banned because they screwed up and ArenaNet had no part in it at all?

victory
03-09-2012, 03:53 PM
The goal isn't that the programmers make a bugless piece of software. That's impossible. The goal is that they discover and fix any major bugs quickly. They did. They also discovered a fair number of players who were perfectly willing to exploit any bug and destroy the brand new game economy before the game could even get off the ground.

Culling 3000 (which was lowered to 500) players in order to maintain the game for the other two million is not a bad tradeoff. Do they lose potential future sales of 500 players for the inevitable add-ons? Sure. But they keep the continued sales of everybody else. Maintaining the integrity of the accounts of people who would gladly break the game for personal gain every chance they get is of somewhat less importance than maintaining the integrity of the game.To me, a game with a fuzzy "don't ever play too effectively in any regard" rule has no integrity. By enforcing such rule with bans, AN is losing my potential business too.

Yes, there are always bugs and unintended behavior. So we deal with it. Maybe the new discovery warrants a patch, and then the game is patched; or maybe, once players learn how to deal with it, it turns out to be interesting instead of game-breaking. Only rarely is there a reason to apply any sort of external rule, but even then, those rules should be explicit so there's no doubt when the rule is being broken and when it's not. All kinds of ridiculous unintended stuff has been found in fighters, FPSs, RTSs, etc. and a lot of the time people just adapt and it's fine.

If the cheap stuff players got in this case irrevocably destroys the economy, then a server rollback would sound like a reasonable response from Arenanet. Bans, hell no.

FriendlyFire
03-09-2012, 03:55 PM
ArenaNet didn't screw up when they banned them, they just had a bug in the wild which was exploited. ANet decided to be lenient and give those idiots a chance to get their account back, but that has no reason to take priority over the people who got hacked. Putting them on the backburner would be fine by me.

Also, to those who keep on bringing up the store price analogy, your analogy is flawed. What would be better would be to say that you see an item for sale at a store at a price which is off beyond any reasonable doubt (say, a steak for 10 pennies). You then decide to stock up on two hundred of them and arrive at the counter. Do you really think the store would let you get away with it?

On the flip side, if you only bought a couple, you'd probably be left alone as per the usual pricing policy of most stores.

@deano2099: You should then terminate your contract with your ISP since they have the ability to terminate your contract at any moment they see fit, as per the terms of service. Surely that's the same as saying ArenaNet could potentially sometime in the next century decide to, for instance, ban people for using the Mists shortcut. Give me a break. You're trying to blow things out of proportions from what is essentially X people did something incredibly stupid and got their asses handed to them. Slippery slope is a fallacy for a reason.

deano2099
03-09-2012, 04:21 PM
ArenaNet didn't screw up when they banned them, they just had a bug in the wild which was exploited. ANet decided to be lenient and give those idiots a chance to get their account back, but that has no reason to take priority over the people who got hacked. Putting them on the backburner would be fine by me.
Controversially, I don't think 'being an idiot' is sufficient reason for a ban. Also, people who got hacked are also idiots. Why value one over the other?


@deano2099: You should then terminate your contract with your ISP since they have the ability to terminate your contract at any moment they see fit, as per the terms of service. Surely that's the same as saying ArenaNet could potentially sometime in the next century decide to, for instance, ban people for using the Mists shortcut.

If my ISP do that they have to refund me any money on my subscription. With GW2, you pay up-front. Were the GW box to come with a 12-month sub, with the next expansion released in 12-months time with another 12-month sub etc. Then this would be fine. As long as ANet refunded people for the time left on their sub. It doesn't work that way though (it's actually a very dangerous way to do things, had GW2 somehow crashed and burned and sold bugger all, lots of people would be left with useless 50 boxes after a while... but in this case that was never going to happen).

There's no slippery slope here: clearly not everyone thinks a ban was warranted in this case, we've seen multiple different reactions to this very case: it's hardly an exploit, what if people were hacked, people should be permabanned, there should be a 72 hour ban, there should be no ban, there should be a 3-week ban... and so forth.

Can you really never envisage a situation where you end up on the other side to ArenaNet, possibly to your own detriment?

Jesus_Phish
03-09-2012, 04:50 PM
Just popped into my head. How many of the accounts that where banned could be hacked accounts? If those accounts are hacked accounts and are on a perma-ban and have to email AN to get rolled back to a 3 day ban, will the hacker bother to do so? Interesting anyway.

Personally I think they should have done a warning with a server roll back or character roll back (probably better) for the first offence followed by a banning for the second offence for 3 days. A straight out ban for 3 days or perma-ban with no warning, this type of scenario just makes AN look bad to a lot of people. AN are at fault for releasing buggy code and the exploiters are at fault for abusing it. Both parties should accept that.

jquinn914
03-09-2012, 04:51 PM
R-F, I hope to never appear as self-serving delusional as you do right now. You knew what you were doing was, at least, deemed wrong, you knew people were being banned for it, you did it anyway arguably even in excess; you twist others' obvious intentional meaning in their posts to sound flawed when the actual point of them is very much valid and sound and even when someone pointed out that you were doing this you just gave the rather pointless "No, you're wrong" spiel without any sort of supporting arguments.

This game wasn't designed solely for you. You're arbitrary delusions of how its rules should be shaped around your beliefs are just silly. There's probably as many if not much, much more players that would agree they don't want players doing what you did. Just because you think players should be able to, while already knowing ArenaNet doesn't think so, doesn't mean the rules should bend to suit what you want. Sorry.

R-F
03-09-2012, 05:44 PM
R-F, I hope to never appear as self-serving delusional as you do right now. You knew what you were doing was, at least, deemed wrong, you knew people were being banned for it, you did it anyway arguably even in excess; you twist others' obvious intentional meaning in their posts to sound flawed when the actual point of them is very much valid and sound and even when someone pointed out that you were doing this you just gave the rather pointless "No, you're wrong" spiel without any sort of supporting arguments.

This game wasn't designed solely for you. You're arbitrary delusions of how its rules should be shaped around your beliefs are just silly. There's probably as many if not much, much more players that would agree they don't want players doing what you did. Just because you think players should be able to, while already knowing ArenaNet doesn't think so, doesn't mean the rules should bend to suit what you want. Sorry.

Children say the funniest things.

EDIT: To all the people attacking me: How many of you actually read the OP? I admitted I exploited, I'm saying the issue is that other people are exploiting, absolutely DEVASTATING the economy and getting nothing for it.

Christ, what the fuck is wrong with this forum?

deano2099
03-09-2012, 05:57 PM
EDIT: To all the people attacking me: How many of you actually read the OP? I admitted I exploited, I'm saying the issue is that other people are exploiting, absolutely DEVASTATING the economy and getting nothing for it.

Christ, what the fuck is wrong with this forum?

People won't discuss the wider point if they can just shout at someone and say 'bad'. Same reason we can't have a sensible discussion about piracy: the minute anyone admits to pirating anything people start yelling about reporting them to FACT.

The irony is that it's almost certain that at some point in the future one of the people here saying 'you deserved to be banned for life as do all your kids and acquaintances', will come back on here and start a thread about how they've been banned and it's not fair because: they got hacked/younger brother was on their account/were drunk/were stupid/didn't know better and expect sympathy and advice on getting their account back.

If Blizzard were doing this, there'd be utter outrage as people simply wouldn't trust Blizzard to make the sort of judgement they're happy to trust ArenaNet to make. (Though to my knowledge Blizzard has never perma-banned for exploiting). It's extremely naive to think that ArenaNet will always get every call right, and that you'll never be on the receiving end of a mistake. Especially when, unlike a subscription MMO, there's no downside for ArenaNet perma-banning people. They already have their money.

Tei
03-09-2012, 06:00 PM
We all know that the only MMO game with real economy is Eve. All others have a pretend of economy, but is really controlled by the devs. If people is making gold for nothing, and the game is pve, I really don't care. I may feel like banning a person 2 or 3 days could make some sense. Its not exactly what Arenanet is doing, ... for some reason Arenanet act here like the game is pvp and infrining economy is a big deal. Ok. GW2 is a good MMO and is well done, but is not a fucking e-sport.

mizzu
03-09-2012, 09:19 PM
I admitted I exploited, I'm saying the issue is that other people are exploiting, absolutely DEVASTATING the economy and getting nothing for it.
Who doesn't hate fucking hypocrites? I do and I'm pretty sure everyone else does too. By reporting you're basically saying "Guys, there's something wrong here and it could seriously damage the economy, so please fix it" and at the same time you're throwing gas into the fire by using the exploit yourself.

It's like the whole drink and drive thing. If you report, don't exploit. If you exploit, don't report. You're just drawing attention towards you.

Maybe they just wanted to make an example and you were the randomly chosen one.

FriendlyFire
03-09-2012, 09:28 PM
People won't discuss the wider point if they can just shout at someone and say 'bad'. Same reason we can't have a sensible discussion about piracy: the minute anyone admits to pirating anything people start yelling about reporting them to FACT.

Wait, you're saying that to us while siding with the guy who calls people "fanboys" or "children" when he has no further argument to make?

I wonder who's the least sensible here.

Faldrath
03-09-2012, 09:47 PM
Speaking of hacking and whatnot, I got a couple of emails a few days ago asking me to "confirm new email for your Guild Wars account". Gmail did not mark them as spam, they do seem to be legit, all the links link to GW2's pages, although I did not click the actual confirmation link because, well, I do not have a GW2 account (although I did sign up for the beta, but I didn't get in). So there's something weird here.

victory
03-09-2012, 09:53 PM
Who doesn't hate fucking hypocrites? I do and I'm pretty sure everyone else does too. By reporting you're basically saying "Guys, there's something wrong here and it could seriously damage the economy, so please fix it" and at the same time you're throwing gas into the fire by using the exploit yourself.
Nothing hypocritical about it. In every competitive game, that's exactly how it works and is supposed to work. Everybody takes advantage of whatever game mechanics they can, unless there is an explicit out-of-game rule in place which bans that thing. If you think something in the game is broken, you can voice your concern and suggest it should be patched or banned to improve the game, but in the meantime you use it. Fuzzy "don't do anything that is too good" rules are bullshit; I'm glad they have pretty much been limited to MMOs and not infected any real games.

alset85
03-09-2012, 09:56 PM
Speaking of hacking and whatnot, I got a couple of emails a few days ago asking me to "confirm new email for your Guild Wars account". Gmail did not mark them as spam, they do seem to be legit, all the links link to GW2's pages, although I did not click the actual confirmation link because, well, I do not have a GW2 account (although I did sign up for the beta, but I didn't get in). So there's something weird here.

I got that email as well. Only problem is I do have a GW2 account and I can't login anymore. I sent a support ticket and all I got back was a canned response to frequent problems.

unruly
03-09-2012, 10:07 PM
EDIT: To all the people attacking me: How many of you actually read the OP? I admitted I exploited, I'm saying the issue is that other people are exploiting, absolutely DEVASTATING the economy and getting nothing for it.

If there are people exploiting other bugs as badly as you say they are, I certainly hope they do get banned in the same way that you were. If they were previously banned for the karma weapon exploit, then I hope that this time around they get a harsher punishment.

I have no control over what ANet is doing, so I can't force them to do anything, but I can support them when they do it. And if they don't do it, then I'll be just as angry as you are about them not doing anything about it. Mainly because if people are exploiting then they should be punished, but also because if ANet are punishing one economy-ruining exploit with bans then the other economy-ruining ones should be punished the same way. I'm not arguing for selective punishment, and I'll agree that arbitrary enforcement of rules is a bad thing. But at the same time, you were complaining about being banned in general, which is why people jumped on you. You exploited, and did so to a large degree, so you got banned. The fact that you knew it was an exploit just made you an even easier target and completely undercut your attempts to paint yourself as a victim, which was much just as much the topic of your OP as ANet being slow about taking action against others.


The irony is that it's almost certain that at some point in the future one of the people here saying 'you deserved to be banned for life as do all your kids and acquaintances', will come back on here and start a thread about how they've been banned and it's not fair because: they got hacked/younger brother was on their account/were drunk/were stupid/didn't know better and expect sympathy and advice on getting their account back.

You seem to forget that most people tend to have a little something called "common sense." It's that thing in your head that tells you "This deal looks too good to be true, I wouldn't trust it." and "Don't act like a total asshat if you don't want to be treated like one." It also tells you "Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should," among other things. And that's the big issue at hand about the bans. Other people saw the bugged pricing and, while they may have bought some of the items in question, didn't buy tons of them. Their common sense kicked in and for that they weren't punished. Just like how, in real life, being drunk, acting stupid, or ignorance of the rules isn't enough of an excuse to save you from punishment, it's not an excuse for punishment in pretty much any game or forum.

Also, as far as I'm aware Blizzard doesn't refund any unused subscription time if they ban you from WoW. In fact, I'm not aware of any MMO that refunds unused time in the case of a ban. They basically tell you "Suck it up. You should have known better than to do X."

mizzu
03-09-2012, 10:30 PM
Nothing hypocritical about it. In every competitive game, that's exactly how it works and is supposed to work. Everybody takes advantage of whatever game mechanics they can, unless there is an explicit out-of-game rule in place which bans that thing. If you think something in the game is broken, you can voice your concern and suggest it should be patched or banned to improve the game, but in the meantime you use it. Fuzzy "don't do anything that is too good" rules are bullshit; I'm glad they have pretty much been limited to MMOs and not infected any real games.

But this is a MMO (and not a very competitive one from my impression), and AN want to keep their game played in the way they find right and don't want the whole economy system (about which I don't know anything, btw) screwed over by some exploiters and they will ban them for the sake of the game world's consistency (which is quite clearly mentioned in the terms people agreed to IIRC) so your argument doesn't really apply, because GW2 is simply not that kind of game you talk about?

Also, if there was a competitive scene, and that scene would allow it for guilds/clans/whatever to basically just "win the game" by finding and abusing the best exploits (i.e. being at the right place at the right time and also a dick), and the system would encourage that by simply not doing anything about it, now that would be a quite lame competitive scene, wouldn't it?

deano2099
03-09-2012, 11:30 PM
You seem to forget that most people tend to have a little something called "common sense." It's that thing in your head that tells you "This deal looks too good to be true, I wouldn't trust it." and "Don't act like a total asshat if you don't want to be treated like one." It also tells you "Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should," among other things. And that's the big issue at hand about the bans. Other people saw the bugged pricing and, while they may have bought some of the items in question, didn't buy tons of them. Their common sense kicked in and for that they weren't punished.
Again, like I don't think 'being stupid' is a good enough reason to ban someone, I also don't think 'having no common sense' is either. Is there a sticker on the box that says 'Requires a minimum IQ of 100 and common sense'?

You're tying yourself up in knots here too -clearly it wasn't totally obvious to everyone that doing what they did would get them banned as thousands of people got banned. So it's common sense is it? Or maybe common sense is, like everything else, relative. What if you've never played an MMO before, but just got out of playing Elite, where buying stuff cheap and selling it for more expensive prices is the central mechanic of the game.


Just like how, in real life, being drunk, acting stupid, or ignorance of the rules isn't enough of an excuse to save you from punishment, it's not an excuse for punishment in pretty much any game or forum.

The rules in real life are written down quite clearly. When there's confusion over if you broke them, you get assessed by a jury of your peers.

But that's besides the point, as the game interface controls exactly what you can do in the game. If you want to stop someone doing something in an MMO, you can just stop them being able to do it. The full range of human interaction isn't available. Jesus, the very notion anyone should be 'punishing' people for stuff they do in a game is fucking mental.

FriendlyFire
03-09-2012, 11:58 PM
The number is in the thousands out of millions of players. That means 0.1% of the playerbase lacks common sense, which honestly I don't find surprising. Yes, you should apply common sense to it, and if you don't well tough luck.

Also, this isn't about buying stuff cheap and selling it for more expensive prices. It's abusing a vendor system to resell things on the trading post. Two entirely different and separate mechanics using two entirely different currencies and one without supply and demand factored into it. It's also part of a tiered system where the previous tier is several orders of magnitude more expensive to purchase than that tier. I'm sorry but even a time travelling merchant from the 16th century would think something's off (though they'd probably suspect a trap to rob them).

The notion of punishing people for stuff they do in a game isn't "fucking mental". This is a feature that was NOT working as intended. Do you seriously believe there exists a program without bugs? That's what this is. If it were banning for a feature that's not bugged or broken, then you'd be right to cry foul, but in this case it was an obvious bug to everyone including those who exploited it.

victory
04-09-2012, 01:29 AM
But this is a MMO (and not a very competitive one from my impression), and AN want to keep their game played in the way they find right and don't want the whole economy system (about which I don't know anything, btw) screwed over by some exploiters and they will ban them for the sake of the game world's consistency (which is quite clearly mentioned in the terms people agreed to IIRC) so your argument doesn't really apply, because GW2 is simply not that kind of game you talk about?My point is, in competitive games which are winnable and where winning can even occasionally kind-of matter - unlike in MMOs - the clear consensus is that whatever is not explicitly disallowed must be allowed. That is the only way you can run a game while keeping it fair. Fuzzy "don't do anything that works really well" rules are fucking garbage, everywhere, all the time. They destroy one of the greatest aspects of videogames. And only in MMOs does the playerbase somehow consider them acceptable.

If AN finds this particular feature which they coded in sucks, that's easily fixed by a patch which removes/fixes the feature. If instant fix is impossible, they could put up a stopgap explicit rule "you may not buy X sword from Y vendor (or else, ban)". And if there's too much damage incurred before they manage to do anything, they can roll back the server. They do NOT need to punish players in any way.
Also, if there was a competitive scene, and that scene would allow it for guilds/clans/whatever to basically just "win the game" by finding and abusing the best exploits (i.e. being at the right place at the right time and also a dick), and the system would encourage that by simply not doing anything about it, now that would be a quite lame competitive scene, wouldn't it?If you go to a $5000 fighting game tournament, and have figured out a previously unknown really useful glitch which lets you faceroll your way to top spot, do you get banned? No. Do you get a 72 hour suspension and have to write a grovel letter to the organizers to be allowed back in next time? No. What you get is $5000, a place on a pedestal, and being crowded by people curious to learn how to do what you just did.

Maybe next time everyone will have learned your technique and are using it enthusiastically, or have first learned it and then figured out such a powerful counter that the technique is now semi-useless. Or maybe it will have been patched out. Or maybe it will have been judged by expert consensus to be game-breaking, and banned by an explicit tournament rule. All of these are fine; what's not fine is punishing the player who tries their best in the first place.

FriendlyFire
04-09-2012, 01:45 AM
If AN finds this particular feature which they coded in sucks, that's easily fixed by a patch which removes/fixes the feature. If instant fix is impossible, they could put up a stopgap explicit rule "you may not buy X sword from Y vendor (or else, ban)". And if there's too much damage incurred before they manage to do anything, they can roll back the server. They do NOT need to punish players in any way.

Wait, so you're saying ANet should punish everyone by rolling back the servers because some jackasses thought it good to exploit the system?

unruly
04-09-2012, 02:05 AM
Again, like I don't think 'being stupid' is a good enough reason to ban someone, I also don't think 'having no common sense' is either. Is there a sticker on the box that says 'Requires a minimum IQ of 100 and common sense'?

You're tying yourself up in knots here too -clearly it wasn't totally obvious to everyone that doing what they did would get them banned as thousands of people got banned. So it's common sense is it? Or maybe common sense is, like everything else, relative. What if you've never played an MMO before, but just got out of playing Elite, where buying stuff cheap and selling it for more expensive prices is the central mechanic of the game.

I highly doubt that in Elite you can buy an item from one vendor and then sell it back to that same vendor for more than what you paid for it. Which is what one of the exploits I'm aware of was. The other was a means to convert small amounts of one in-game currency, that you earn in large chunks, into large amounts of another, that you earn in much smaller chunks. And you're talking about approximately 3000 people from a playerbase of at least 2 million. That's far less than 1% of the player base who got banned for exploiting these particular bugs. So yea, I'd say that common sense wins the day in this argument because it's fairly clear that it did when you look at the numbers.


But that's besides the point, as the game interface controls exactly what you can do in the game. If you want to stop someone doing something in an MMO, you can just stop them being able to do it. The full range of human interaction isn't available. Jesus, the very notion anyone should be 'punishing' people for stuff they do in a game is fucking mental.

So punishing someone in a game, for something they did in that game, is mental? How so? They did something they weren't supposed to do, and so they got smacked for it. And not everyone who used the bugged vendors got banned, only the people who went crazy-nuts with it and bought well beyond "personal use" quantities of the items in question got punished. And a temporary game ban is an in-game punishment as it affects the game and only the game. To say that it affects anything other than the game is you taking the game way too seriously.

By your logic, using a bot is perfectly legitimate in any game because the game doesn't stop the bot from running and all the bot is doing is the same stuff that I could do. It's just doing it without me having to do anything myself or even be there at all. Using an aimhack or wallhack is just fine because hey, the game isn't stopping me from doing it, and it's just helping me aim and see people, which is something that the game lets me do anyways. Better yet, why don't I just put myself into a spot in the map that nothing can hurt me in, but I can kill everyone from. The game isn't stopping me from doing it, so it must be perfectly, 100% ok to do.

But I'd bet you wouldn't want to be playing a game where people who do that stuff aren't punished. In fact, I'd bet that you don't give a crap at all when services like Punkbuster or VAC ban people for their hacks, despite the fact that the game doesn't actually prevent those hacks from running. And I bet you don't care when Blizzard bans all those people who are spamming trade chat with gold-selling websites, or when they ban all those people running bots. Again, despite the fact that Blizzard's games don't stop people from spamming gold-selling websites or running bots.

victory
04-09-2012, 02:37 AM
Wait, so you're saying ANet should punish everyone by rolling back the servers because some jackasses thought it good to exploit the system?A rollback to restore server to some desired state isn't punishment. Player bans are punishment.

unruly
04-09-2012, 02:47 AM
A rollback to restore server to some desired state isn't punishment. Player bans are punishment.

Yes, because forcing everyone(that's 2 million+ people)to go back and redo everything they did in the last 24-48 hours isn't a punishment. But kicking a select few people out for 72 hours is much too harsh. And with the way that the in-game trading post is connected to every server, rather than just the server you're accessing it from, they would have to roll back everything for everyone to fix any damage.

So explain to me again, if you would, exactly how screwing 2 million people out of 24-48 hours of gametime is somehow better than kicking 3000 people out for 72 hours? Because, by my reckoning, one of these things is most certainly not like the other. One of these things is batshit crazy.

victory
04-09-2012, 02:51 AM
By your logic, using a bot is perfectly legitimate in any game because the game doesn't stop the bot from running and all the bot is doing is the same stuff that I could do. It's just doing it without me having to do anything myself or even be there at all. Using an aimhack or wallhack is just fine because hey, the game isn't stopping me from doing it, and it's just helping me aim and see people, which is something that the game lets me do anyways.
Please, that's just idiotic. Running an external cheat program is in no way comparable to taking normal in-game actions. The former is invariably banned by an explicit, clear-cut rule. The latter is usually not, and when it's not, it should not be punishable either.

unruly
04-09-2012, 03:05 AM
Please, that's just idiotic. Running an external cheat program is in no way comparable to taking normal in-game actions. The former is invariably banned by an explicit, clear-cut rule. The latter is usually not, and when it's not, it should not be punishable either.

It's perfectly in line with what he said though. He stated that if they didn't want you to do something in a game, they game would explicitly stop you from doing that. But you're ignoring the fact that he said that, just as much as he's ignoring the fact that the game wasn't supposed to be allowing people to do what they were doing. It was a bug. A glitch. It wasn't supposed to be the way that it was. And the people who used it, but didn't abuse it, didn't get punished at all. The people who abused the bug did get punished. Just like how, if you play any FPS game and you exploit glitches in maps that let you become an invincible killing machine you're going to get banned from just about every server you do it on. Skywalkers in CS get banned all the time. But hey, it's possible to do in the game so all those server admins that ban people for it are just horrible, terrible people because if the game wants to let me become invincible by exploiting a bug in the map, then damnit I should be allowed to do it!

deano2099
04-09-2012, 03:10 AM
So punishing someone in a game, for something they did in that game, is mental? How so? They did something they weren't supposed to do, and so they got smacked for it.
Yes, 'punishing' is wrong. Reverting what they did is fine, and if that puts them in worse spot than they would have been had they not exploited (by just rolling back their character 24 hours) then that's acceptable collateral damage. And remember these were initially made as perma-bans, which is in no way acceptable when people have paid money for the game.


By your logic, using a bot is perfectly legitimate in any game because the game doesn't stop the bot from running and all the bot is doing is the same stuff that I could do. It's just doing it without me having to do anything myself or even be there at all. Using an aimhack or wallhack is just fine because hey, the game isn't stopping me from doing it, and it's just helping me aim and see people, which is something that the game lets me do anyways.
No, because those are external to the game. It's impossible to stop stuff like that on a PC because of the nature of the platform. I'm not going to spend long on this point, because you seem smart enough to know that and so I think you're being deliberately obtuse, but if you need me to explain further I'll get my flashcards.


Better yet, why don't I just put myself into a spot in the map that nothing can hurt me in, but I can kill everyone from. The game isn't stopping me from doing it, so it must be perfectly, 100% ok to do.
Yup. If they didn't intend that to be there, they can always remove it.


In fact, I'd bet that you don't give a crap at all when services like Punkbuster or VAC ban people for their hacks, despite the fact that the game doesn't actually prevent those hacks from running.
Punkbuster or VAC work on stopping external programmes. They don't ban for in-game choiches.


And I bet you don't care when Blizzard bans all those people who are spamming trade chat with gold-selling websites, or when they ban all those people running bots. Again, despite the fact that Blizzard's games don't stop people from spamming gold-selling websites or running bots.
Again, external programmes AND those two things are specifically noted as against the rules in Blizzard's terms.

Point me to the place in the GW2 terms of use that says "you will not buy items from a vendor that are more than 90% cheaper than from other vendors" and I'll concede the entire arguement. But just saying "thou will not exploit" isn't good enough. It shouldn't be down to players to guess whether they've found something cool that gives them an intentional advantage, or if they've found an exploit they'll get banned for.

[It's also a damn depressing point of view, as it means there simply can't be anything in GW2 that's different, that delights or surprises or blows you away with unexpected awesomeness as anything that does might look like an exploit]

deano2099
04-09-2012, 03:12 AM
It's perfectly in line with what he said though. He stated that if they didn't want you to do something in a game, they game would explicitly stop you from doing that.

If you can't understand the difference between the code that the developer is responsible for and external code that the user introduces to the game environment then there's no point having this discussion as you're never going understand the issue here.

Hypernetic
04-09-2012, 03:34 AM
@Deano: You are missing the point, sir. You can't simply roll back their character when an exploit like this happens. The items (or mats they were disenchanted into or the money they were vendored/auctioned for) are out in the wild. The entire economy is impactd by things like this. A roll back doesn't prevent these things from happening in the future. Exploitable bugs/glitches/dev mistakes are inevitable in massive game worlds like WoW or GW2. If someone thinks "oh the worst that will happen is a roll back" they won't hesitate to do it, if they think "Well I might get banned and miss 3 days of raiding/pvp" they WILL think twice.

unruly
04-09-2012, 03:34 AM
Point me to the place in the GW2 terms of use that says "you will not buy items from a vendor that are more than 90% cheaper than from other vendors" and I'll concede the entire arguement. But just saying "thou will not exploit" isn't good enough. It shouldn't be down to players to guess whether they've found something cool that gives them an intentional advantage, or if they've found an exploit they'll get banned for.

How's this one - NCsoft may suspend and/or delete Your Account for cause (e.g., You breach, violate, or otherwise fail to comply with each and every provision of, this agreement and therefore it would be unreasonable to require NCsoft to remain bound by this agreement) as well as any other Account, NCsoft Message Board ID, Character ID, Team, and/or characteristics related to a Character ID. Any suspension and/or termination under this Section 3(c), as well as the timing thereof, shall be conclusively determined in the sole and absolute discretion of NCsoft.

And this - (b) If You violate the Rules of Conduct, then NCsoft may, in its sole and absolute discretion, terminate Your Account under Section 3(b)

And then this to wrap it all up - You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars 2 and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of Guild Wars 2.


Basically, it boils down to this - ANet and NCSoft run the servers. They get final say on who is allowed to play the game. Period. Any violation of rules they put into place can result in the termination of your account, regardless of how vague or absurd you think the rules may be.

Besides, there are real-life laws that are just as vague as the "You will not exploit bugs" rule. Not everything is spelled out in black-and-white terms, which is why lawyers exist and why there are entire political movements dedicated to simplifying things like tax codes and laws, among other things. Just look up stuff like "Obstruction of Justice" or "Obstructing an Officer" to see how vague real laws can be. Simply refusing to identify yourself, even if you're not involved in an incident at all, can result in you being arrested. Or look into how taking a piss in an alleyway can get your branded a "sex offender" for the rest of your life. Both of which have much more harmful effects than a ban from a game. You can even be imprisoned for forgetting a password or safe combination. Or you can even be imprisoned because the judge thinks that you have something that you don't have. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._Beatty_Chadwick)

Brit89
04-09-2012, 04:26 AM
To be fair, the karma weapon bug was extremely cheap and would have been easy for people who were relatively new to the game to exploit to mass numbers. I mean, the weapons cost 21 karma, which is about what I get for failing an event at level 40, so it would be easy to have the karma to buy 50 of them if all you did was heart quests without participating in any events. But at the same time, there's no actual gear pieces that are that cheap at any point(as far as I've seen at least, the only stuff that cheap is stuff like cooking mats). Because of that fact alone it should have been readily apparent to anyone that even bothered to ever open a single karma vendor's shop screen that there was something wrong with the pricing.

Wait, they were 21 Karma? I bought my 4 for about 980-1000+ karma points each. Now they're what they should have been, 9800KP. I was wondering how people were able to buy hundreds of these :s Was it a specific vendor then? I bought mine from the Sylvari home area.

deano2099
04-09-2012, 04:32 AM
Basically, it boils down to this - ANet and NCSoft run the servers. They get final say on who is allowed to play the game. Period. Any violation of rules they put into place can result in the termination of your account, regardless of how vague or absurd you think the rules may be.

You didn't need the second half of that sentence. ANet can ban you for whatever they like. Maybe they think your smell or something, they can ban you. so ANet's 'power' to ban you and rules as to why you might get banned are not linked. We're not discussing if they can or not, we're discussing if they should. Because there is no argument for the former, of course they can.

But how they use those powers in practice is hugely relevent and debatable. Steam can turn off all your games if they want. They have the power and the right to do that. But they don't, because if they started doing that, no-one would buy games from them.

@Hypernetic that is indeed a fair and interesting point and one I've missed because so far everyone has failed to make it. I'd still say an in-game 'punishment' should suffice though in those cases - ie. rolling back even more levels than they actually gained. And to be honest I'm not that fussed by the 72 hour ban (the box buys you an 'infinite' sub so there's no monetary value attached like there would be in a sub-game ban) it's the fact that they initially made these permanent bans, and have basically said they only reduced them as a one-off and will still be perma-banning people in the future.

Mac
04-09-2012, 09:32 AM
So an estimated 180 buys and an admission that you exploited - yet you think that the fact that you submitted a ticket should admonish you from being an exploiter ... I think not!

Seriously, if you had seen the price and submitted a ticket then cool beans, you would have been helping ... seeing a cheap price and filling your boots before reporting it to stop others filling their boots like you is quite clearly taking advantage, and as such a temp ban should be seen as a mild slap on the hands.

Suck it up and stop the whining ...

victory
04-09-2012, 10:21 AM
Basically, it boils down to this - ANet and NCSoft run the servers. They get final say on who is allowed to play the game. Period. Any violation of rules they put into place can result in the termination of your account, regardless of how vague or absurd you think the rules may be.

Besides, there are real-life laws that are just as vague as the "You will not exploit bugs" rule. ... "Obstruction of Justice" ... "Obstructing an Officer"The above is just illogical. Because real world unavoidably needs vague laws, and also has terrible laws like ones which punish you for forgetting a password, we should tolerate vague and bad rules in our videogames which have no need for such rules? A big reason videogames are awesome is that they allow you to experiment freely and do your absolute best against the world and other players. We don't need to curry favor with judges, or fake fall all day like soccer players.

Here's some examples of rules devoid of bullshit:
http://evo.shoryuken.com/evo-player-guide/evo-additional-rules/

"Unanticipated by developer" or "unintended by developer" is never an acceptable combination of words in a rule. How would you be supposed to know if a particular really good and weird thing is known by the developer and deliberately left in? If it needs to be banned, ban it explicitly, and not retroactively. And like I said before: in a lot of very good games, many, many things good players do are not foreseen by devs. A terrible policy like "don't do anything we didn't think of, or we ban" would have left all those games and their players stunted.

Nalano
04-09-2012, 01:01 PM
Why? ArenaNet wasn't hacked.

Their e-mail confirmation worked in a way that didn't confirm an e-mail. And yet the people who got hurt by this have to wait.


To me, a game with a fuzzy "don't ever play too effectively in any regard" rule has no integrity. By enforcing such rule with bans, AN is losing my potential business too.

What part of "this breaks the game" don't you understand?


If the cheap stuff players got in this case irrevocably destroys the economy, then a server rollback would sound like a reasonable response from Arenanet. Bans, hell no.

A rollback would punish everybody else. Why not just cut off the source?

NathanH
04-09-2012, 01:44 PM
A rollback would punish everybody else. Why not just cut off the source?

If the economy has been broken, banning the players does not fix this. If the economy has not been broken, then there's nothing to worry about.

More generally, I don't understand why you create a player-run economy and then panic when it proceeds differently from how you planned. If you want your economy to work in a specific way, make it work that way and don't let players be able to influence it. If you want players to be able to influence it, accept that you don't control it any more.

Hypernetic
04-09-2012, 02:42 PM
Are you seriously trying to defend exploiters? Anyone who purchased hundreds of an item from a vendor (or has done any exploit in an MMO really) knows what they are doing. If they didn't realize they were exploiting they are retarded and still deserve to be banned anyway. We still send retards to prison when they murder people even if they say "hurr durr I dint know dat crushing throat would kill".

Nalano
04-09-2012, 03:00 PM
If the economy has been broken, banning the players does not fix this. If the economy has not been broken, then there's nothing to worry about.

More generally, I don't understand why you create a player-run economy and then panic when it proceeds differently from how you planned. If you want your economy to work in a specific way, make it work that way and don't let players be able to influence it. If you want players to be able to influence it, accept that you don't control it any more.

Yeah, let's get rid of bank holidays!

Also, how hard of a concept is it that they are banning players who are working to break the economy? We ban inside traders and other stock manipulators.

victory
04-09-2012, 03:03 PM
A rollback would punish everybody else. Why not just cut off the source?The source is ArenaNet's fuckup. They can't very well cut themselves off so the next best thing is to repair and/or reset the world to a state where it isn't broken. Maybe rollback isn't the only option to do that, and they could instead do a worldwide reset of items X, Y and Z to a maximum of three per character. Or if total wealth is the problem, maybe they could auto-subtract a certain amount of money or its equivalent in items from players in proportion to how many of the cheap items they got. The point is that no one should be "punished" out of game, for punishment's sake, as long as they did not break an explicit rule. The game should not have a culture of enforcement where that is possible.

Maybe this particular case seems clear cut to you, but it's a precedent. If later someone finds a really good, probably unintended, way to use their in-game skills, will they be banned? If someone finds a good, probably unintended, place to stand during a fight, will they be banned? If someone finds a vendor selling an item that is cheap (but not as cheap as in the current case), and buys some, will they be banned?

Games with good, non-fuzzy rules reward and celebrate innovation and skill while taking appropriate response towards powerful discoveries - not players who find them. MMOs like WoW and GW prefer to just crucify the players and stop there. That's another downside of these policies I didn't really go into; the policy leads to far more problems actually staying in the game. Not just the initial problem, but all sorts of related and derivative problems, and totally unrelated problems that won't be found because innovation is discouraged. I played WoW on and off for years, and there was always bugs and weirdness which just never, ever got fixed.

Why fix your game, or even make sensible explicit rules, when you can instead pile on more fuzzy rules? Or better yet, just have one catch-all rule and smack down anyone who does anything differently?

deano2099
04-09-2012, 03:26 PM
The trading post wasn't up when this happened right? So this is more a thought experiment, but for those who think the players should be banned - if they exploited by buying the items at 1% of the normal price, and then sold them on the trading post for 10x what they paid, making a nice profit, would you also support banning the players who bought the items on the trading post for 10% of the normal price? And what if they sold them on there for the exact same price they bought them for?

Those players would be taking advantage, getting a huge benefit, possibly damaging the economy... but they'd be taking advantage of another player's stupidity rather than ArenaNet's directly.

NathanH
04-09-2012, 03:51 PM
Anyway, sanctions at the character level would be better approach, I think. "You have put the stablity of the world at risk by your reckless actions! We hereby exile you to the Black Pit!" That's the sort of thing I would do if I was a Gamesmaster and my players were trying to take advantage of me... you can take advantage of me, but then I can make life very difficult for your character.

That would be pretty fitting in this case, since the most sensible in-game explanation of the bug is that the merchant in question is clearly handling stolen goods, and by buying and moving them around your character is clearly part of the criminal enterprise.

Hypernetic
04-09-2012, 04:32 PM
Jesus Christ guys... This kind of stuff isn't new to the MMO world. People weren't even perma-banned, it was for 3 days. This happens in every MMO and it will always happen.

"It's arenanet's fuck up, so nobody should be punished".

Counter points:

It's not OK to enter someone's home simply because the door was unlocked.

If I "fuck up" and leave my keys in the ignition, you will still go to jail for grand theft auto if you hop in and drive away.

It's still rape even if she was dressed like a slut.

Ignorance of the law is not a legal defense either.

Need I go on?

hamster
04-09-2012, 04:39 PM
Just look through the archives for the guys who did the exploit and zap their in-game wealth to zero. Also, debuff the item by an amount inversely proportional to how much buyers paid for it. Banning is too much as it extends OUTSIDE the game, whereas the exploit was made WITHIN the rules of the game. If you hack and break the fourth wall, then the punishment being temp/perma ban is reasonable.

Jesus_Phish
04-09-2012, 04:41 PM
Out of interest, how many people here defending the exploiters are

A) One of the exploiters?
B) Even playing the game?
C) If not A or B, have even played a game with an economy?

If the economy of a game is ruined within a few days that has a serious knock on effect, particularly on the people who can't/don't play several hours a day and those who are late to the party.

hamster
04-09-2012, 04:42 PM
Jesus Christ guys... This kind of stuff isn't new to the MMO world. People weren't even perma-banned, it was for 3 days. This happens in every MMO and it will always happen.

"It's arenanet's fuck up, so nobody should be punished".

Counter points:

It's not OK to enter someone's home simply because the door was unlocked.

If I "fuck up" and leave my keys in the ignition, you will still go to jail for grand theft auto if you hop in and drive away.

It's still rape even if she was dressed like a slut.

Ignorance of the law is not a legal defense either.

Need I go on?

Jesus christ are you serious?

gundato
04-09-2012, 05:11 PM
Jesus christ are you serious?

Jesus Christ are you there? It's me, Margaret.

Barnox
04-09-2012, 05:17 PM
It's already been brought up that ArenaNet have said in the EULA "If we want to ban you and delete your account, we will".
Where is the issue?

You agreed to the EULA.
Don't be an asshat, conform to the community rules and don't buy 180 bloody exploit items.
If you cross them, they'll punish you.

NathanH
04-09-2012, 05:21 PM
Nobody is questioning their right to ban players, we are questioning whether or not they should.

victory
04-09-2012, 05:38 PM
Jesus Christ guys... This kind of stuff isn't new to the MMO world. People weren't even perma-banned, it was for 3 days. This happens in every MMO and it will always happen.So (most?) MMOs have been shit in this regard. It does not logically follow that we should be content with it. Nothing about the general concept of a grind MMO makes terrible fuzzy rules inevitable.

Hypernetic
04-09-2012, 06:11 PM
Nobody is questioning their right to ban players, we are questioning whether or not they should.

Of course they should.

Nalano
04-09-2012, 06:18 PM
Of course they should.

Deathbunny agrees with Hypernetic.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e342/jonmphy/gw118.jpg


The trading post wasn't up when this happened right?

Wrong. It was up for 15%, then 25% of players while the bug was up. In fact, when the trading post came up for 100% of the players, suddenly a bunch of exotic weapons flooded the market!

Barnox
04-09-2012, 06:22 PM
You're playing their game. They run it, they've laid out the rules, you've agreed to them. Including said "We can ban you" rule.
The "But I paid money!" defence doesn't work when you've acknowledged what they can do, and agreed to it.

I've no issue with what they've done so far. Server rollbacks for a minor number of player's actions (>1%) are a terrible idea, with the wasted hours amounting to much more than what a 3-day ban for the exploiters would. Also, punishing everyone for the actions of a select few is a terrible idea.
I look forwards to seeing more bans and more whinging in the future.

Subatomic
04-09-2012, 06:34 PM
There is (at least around here) a legal concept of 'reasonably expectable common sense' that applies in cases like buying extremely cheap electronics, designer clothes etc. and basically means that you can't say 'I didn't know those were stolen/counterfeit!' if basic common sense would tell you there's something fishy going on. I think something similar applies here. Using basic common sense, you can usually tell if something is an exploit or at least questionable, and again using common sense should probably stop doing it. It's not that hard to guess what is intended and what isn't, and in cases where it isn't immediately obvious, the game companies usually refrain from banning people and just fix the problem and sometimes remove items/experience/etc. gained that way.

NathanH
04-09-2012, 06:54 PM
I haven't said this for a while, but this seems like a good opportunity. Enemies of gaming.

Also, am I the only one who's unduly pissed off by the apostrophe in the title?

deano2099
04-09-2012, 07:46 PM
Wrong. It was up for 15%, then 25% of players while the bug was up. In fact, when the trading post came up for 100% of the players, suddenly a bunch of exotic weapons flooded the market!

That's interesting. So there was a flood of cheap weapons on the market after this exploit, being sold by people who had used the exploit.

So I'm guessing we're all in favour of rolling out the same bans to anyone who bought those cheap weapons off the market place? Because they should have known that they were a lot cheaper than they should have been, and they'd likely come from an illicit source. And those players are getting an advantage in getting those things cheap.

Hypernetic
04-09-2012, 08:10 PM
That's interesting. So there was a flood of cheap weapons on the market after this exploit, being sold by people who had used the exploit.

So I'm guessing we're all in favour of rolling out the same bans to anyone who bought those cheap weapons off the market place? Because they should have known that they were a lot cheaper than they should have been, and they'd likely come from an illicit source. And those players are getting an advantage in getting those things cheap.

Nope.

10char

FriendlyFire
04-09-2012, 08:15 PM
I see more and more people grasping at straws trying to construct strawmen. It's fairly amusing.

Also, enemies of gaming? Yeah, I think that suits exploiters fairly well.

NathanH
04-09-2012, 08:16 PM
Enjoy your time in the herd of little MMO sheep!

gundato
04-09-2012, 08:21 PM
That's interesting. So there was a flood of cheap weapons on the market after this exploit, being sold by people who had used the exploit.

So I'm guessing we're all in favour of rolling out the same bans to anyone who bought those cheap weapons off the market place? Because they should have known that they were a lot cheaper than they should have been, and they'd likely come from an illicit source. And those players are getting an advantage in getting those things cheap.

No. Because the point of the first wave of bans was to minimize how much of this would happen.

Now, as for when someone who does that SHOULD be banned: If they buy a LOT of stuff at the super low-rate to the point that it looks like they are conspiring with a gold farmer or something to "launder" items as it were. To my understanding, the Black Lion Trading Post works by selling the cheapest items first. So if two users organized, you could probably sell most of the items to a single user, thus potentially avoiding ANet checking chatlogs and saying "Yeah... no"

Its the same way stolen property works in real life. The cops can, but are highly unlikely to, crack down on someone for buying a cheap PSP from someone with a car in Chinatown (I know I did :p). Hell, they might not even care about the guy selling it if he is small time. But once the volume increases, it becomes a problem.

You know, sort of like how people who only bought a few of the discount items weren't affected, but people who bought them in bulk were banned? So... you know... the actual precedent. Not the "it could happen!" slippery slope one.


I haven't said this for a while, but this seems like a good opportunity. Enemies of gaming.

Also, am I the only one who's unduly pissed off by the apostrophe in the title?

Does anyone else find it hilarious how the people who are most vocally in favor of "Freedom and rights" tend to most closely emulate the various fascist and tyrannical regimes in history?
"If you disagree with me, you are an enemy of gaming! Off to Siberia with you!"

NathanH
04-09-2012, 08:25 PM
Post removed.

Hypernetic
04-09-2012, 08:27 PM
Calm down Nathan.

NathanH
04-09-2012, 08:29 PM
OK, fair point, just got a bit riled up by that one.

I should point out that when I say enemies of gaming I'm not entirely 100% serious. Not entirely non-serious, but just flippant.

Wolfenswan
04-09-2012, 09:46 PM
http://www.toptiertactics.com/15083/an-open-letter-to-arenanet-regarding-my-guild-wars-2-ban/

Lightbulb
04-09-2012, 10:23 PM
That's interesting. When there was a market crash in GW1 and ectoplasm and everything prices went to something like 2% of their market value and some lucky people got incredibly rich within minutes, they didn't do anything at all IIRC.

One time i saw that happen they rerolled the server - to like a day before. You can imagine how pleased everyone was!

140 times? "Not as bad as it sounds"?

At least its not a perma-ban. They clearly were not for personal use.

I'd say its rather like drugs. Using is a lesser offence than supplying.

It absolutely is about magnitude.

FriendlyFire
04-09-2012, 10:49 PM
http://www.toptiertactics.com/15083/an-open-letter-to-arenanet-regarding-my-guild-wars-2-ban/

Excellent. Can ANet piss off more assholes like this? Seeing their arses handed to them is refreshing.

Barnox
04-09-2012, 10:55 PM
Excellent. Can ANet piss off more assholes like this? Seeing their arses handed to them is refreshing.
Look at the comments. It is a joke, taking the mick out of the people who were really banned for such account names.

Nalano
05-09-2012, 01:06 AM
Look at the comments. It is a joke, taking the mick out of the people who were really banned for such account names.

Third comment: "Hi. I’m the first commenter who read the article." Thank you.

Deeper down, somebody linked Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that someone won't mistake for the real thing."

Hypernetic
05-09-2012, 01:37 AM
Third comment: "Hi. I’m the first commenter who read the article." Thank you.

Deeper down, somebody linked Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that someone won't mistake for the real thing."


I thought this part was the winking smiley.

"Even though you were willing to take my money, enough money to buy at least fifteen Red Bull energy drinks, you seem to think you can take away my ability to play for no reason at all.,"

Sketch
05-09-2012, 01:52 AM
Xx Adolf xX got me.

hamster
05-09-2012, 03:07 AM
No. Because the point of the first wave of bans was to minimize how much of this would happen.

Now, as for when someone who does that SHOULD be banned: If they buy a LOT of stuff at the super low-rate to the point that it looks like they are conspiring with a gold farmer or something to "launder" items as it were. To my understanding, the Black Lion Trading Post works by selling the cheapest items first. So if two users organized, you could probably sell most of the items to a single user, thus potentially avoiding ANet checking chatlogs and saying "Yeah... no"

Its the same way stolen property works in real life. The cops can, but are highly unlikely to, crack down on someone for buying a cheap PSP from someone with a car in Chinatown (I know I did :p). Hell, they might not even care about the guy selling it if he is small time. But once the volume increases, it becomes a problem.

You know, sort of like how people who only bought a few of the discount items weren't affected, but people who bought them in bulk were banned? So... you know... the actual precedent. Not the "it could happen!" slippery slope one.



They could have minimized the whole thing by simply zapping the offending items that were acquired through the mistaken prices. I mean presumably they're going to do that anyway after the temp ban expires, yes? What exactly is the point of the ban in the first place beyond punishment?

And for guys spamming about contractual rights: The concept of mistake is actually recognized by contract law. Under common sense circumstances, a contract will be considered void/voidable. Yes, void. As if nothing ever happened. But the subscription agreement between you and arenanet goes beyond/includes more than the contract that was formed during the particular exploitative transaction. It governs the service provided i.e. access to the server, access to the game, storage and access of characters...the whole thing. You are being cut_out_of_the_whole thing. This makes zero sense unless there is a clause explicitly spelling out the right to suspend service on arenanet's part.

To spell it out even more, it's like buying a new, incorrectly priced AAA game. Most DD's actually do honor the contract btw. But in obvious circumstances they have the right not to. But in the event that they do, they don't ban your whole account.

And all of this has jack all to do with criminal law and ignorance of the law not being an excuse.

gundato
05-09-2012, 03:17 AM
They could have minimized the whole thing by simply zapping the offending items that were acquired through the mistaken prices. I mean presumably they're going to do that anyway after the temp ban expires, yes? What exactly is the point of the ban in the first place beyond punishment?

Uhm... punishment? :p
They sure as hell aren't going to reward people for exploiting the exploits.

Seriously, the point is that these users have shown that they will probably abuse any and all exploits horridly at the first chance, even if it is just to "keep people from leaving them in the dust" or whatever RF claimed. So send a message and remove a lot of them in one fell swoop. Those who care about the game beyond exploiting can appeal their bans (I imagine a lot of gold-farming accounts won't be appealing, for example).

By doing the ban it minimizes the amount of crap that can be fed into the auction house. It is also probably easier (and faster) than going through and only removing the "bad" items. If ANet wanted to wipe all traces of it they would just have written a script to remove any Karma weapons purchased during the duration of the "sale" as it were. But ANet doesn't want to penalize normal users for taking advantage. They only care about the people who abused it, likely to abuse other stuff later.

I personally think a good solution would have been to leave the accounts in place but completely wipe the characters. Because that would be HILARIOUS and it wouldn't run into people screaming "Oh my god! My rights were violated! I want a lawyer!". That way, people can keep playing, but they have to start all over again. Suffice to say: Not even VALVE are that dicky :p



To spell it out even more, it's like buying a new, incorrectly priced AAA game. Most DD's actually do honor the contract btw. But in obvious circumstances they have the right not to. But in the event that they do, they don't ban your whole account.
Correct, but if you abuse that (buying a bunch at a low price to sell later... not sure what that reminds me of) or do anything else to piss them off they will stop you from buying stuff in the future. I think there are a few guys on the GoG forums who can't use certain DD services because they abused crap and constantly demanded refunds and the like (so the services just said "Screw it, I don't want to deal with you" and let them keep their games but disabled their purchasing abilities.
Sort of like what ArenaNet did.

FriendlyFire
05-09-2012, 04:25 AM
Xx Adolf xX got me.

Seems like he got me too. To be fair, I didn't read down to the Red Bull part, and I have seen such reactions already (I recall of a guy who abused the system and when he got temp banned called out his raving fanboys to attack ANet, which led to his permaban).

I'm glad this was just a joke though, my faith in humanity is ever so slighty restored.

hamster
05-09-2012, 05:42 AM
Uhm... punishment? :p
They sure as hell aren't going to reward people for exploiting the exploits.

Seriously, the point is that these users have shown that they will probably abuse any and all exploits horridly at the first chance, even if it is just to "keep people from leaving them in the dust" or whatever RF claimed. So send a message and remove a lot of them in one fell swoop. Those who care about the game beyond exploiting can appeal their bans (I imagine a lot of gold-farming accounts won't be appealing, for example).

By doing the ban it minimizes the amount of crap that can be fed into the auction house. It is also probably easier (and faster) than going through and only removing the "bad" items. If ANet wanted to wipe all traces of it they would just have written a script to remove any Karma weapons purchased during the duration of the "sale" as it were. But ANet doesn't want to penalize normal users for taking advantage. They only care about the people who abused it, likely to abuse other stuff later.

It should be really easy then, to detect how much somebody paid for the items. If the price paid is x % the original price, then you zap those items as well, or you debit the shortfall to the farthest extent possible. This way even third party buyers (who paid a nominal amount and so should be put on constructive notice) get caught and the damage to the economy is reversed.


I personally think a good solution would have been to leave the accounts in place but completely wipe the characters. Because that would be HILARIOUS and it wouldn't run into people screaming "Oh my god! My rights were violated! I want a lawyer!". That way, people can keep playing, but they have to start all over again. Suffice to say: Not even VALVE are that dicky :p

Don't know much about the game but if it was like GW 1, i don't think character progress means much.


Correct, but if you abuse that (buying a bunch at a low price to sell later... not sure what that reminds me of) or do anything else to piss them off they will stop you from buying stuff in the future. I think there are a few guys on the GoG forums who can't use certain DD services because they abused crap and constantly demanded refunds and the like (so the services just said "Screw it, I don't want to deal with you" and let them keep their games but disabled their purchasing abilities.
Sort of like what ArenaNet did.[/COLOR]

Different, because the transaction was honored. If you really, really want to "ban" MMO exploiters, the proper thing to do is to discontinue service once the subscription expires, as each subsequent subscription could be considered a new contract (too bad GW2 doesn't have a sub. agreement). But you can't just refuse service in the middle of providing said service. So, for example, a restaurant can't unilaterally decide to kick you out in the middle of dinner for reasons outside of the terms of service that is implied in contracts between restaurants and its clients.

I guess, putting all the above aside, fundamentally what we disagree on is whether bans are justifiable or not. But I trust that - seeing as R-F doesn't inherently disagree with bans - we don't disagree that R-F got what he deserved? ;)

Nalano
05-09-2012, 06:30 AM
Different, because the transaction was honored. If you really, really want to "ban" MMO exploiters, the proper thing to do is to discontinue service once the subscription expires, as each subsequent subscription could be considered a new contract (too bad GW2 doesn't have a sub. agreement). But you can't just refuse service in the middle of providing said service. So, for example, a restaurant can't unilaterally decide to kick you out in the middle of dinner for reasons outside of the terms of service that is implied in contracts between restaurants and its clients.

Sure they can. Restaurants can and do remove people for being asses all the time. They like all businesses have a right to refuse service for anything isn't protected - ie, race, creed, orientation, etc - so if the manager decides you're too much of a hassle or you're being overly disruptive, you're out​.

hamster
05-09-2012, 08:07 AM
Sure they can. Restaurants can and do remove people for being asses all the time. They like all businesses have a right to refuse service for anything isn't protected - ie, race, creed, orientation, etc - so if the manager decides you're too much of a hassle or you're being overly disruptive, you're out​.

You're out because you've violated one of the implied terms of service i.e. being disruptive. It has nothing to do with them not liking you or flipping a coin or, more realistically, kicking you out in the middle of your meal because they have a VIP who needs the space.

AgamemnonV1
05-09-2012, 08:48 AM
ITT: GW2 players who violated the ToS and tried to take advantage of an exploit that they knew was an exploit try to justify why cheating and being greedy should be okay.

Grizzly
05-09-2012, 09:18 AM
Sure they can. Restaurants can and do remove people for being asses all the time. They like all businesses have a right to refuse service for anything isn't protected - ie, race, creed, orientation, etc - so if the manager decides you're too much of a hassle or you're being overly disruptive, you're out​.

This. A hundred times this. When you buy Guild Wars 2, you don't own Guild Wars 2, you basically buy a ticket for unlimited lifetime acces to a theme park called Guild Wars 2.

Jesus_Phish
05-09-2012, 09:36 AM
You're out because you've violated one of the implied terms of service i.e. being disruptive. It has nothing to do with them not liking you or flipping a coin or, more realistically, kicking you out in the middle of your meal because they have a VIP who needs the space.


Like the exploiters where being disruptive and violated the implied ToS?

What does this idea that someone was banned for flipping a coin have to do with what happened? Nobody, as far as I know, has been banned because they were flipping a coin or AN needed to free up server space.

Lightbulb
05-09-2012, 11:46 AM
...kicking you out in the middle of your meal because they have a VIP who needs the space.

Incidently if someone does this you don't have to pay for the meal...

Useful to know. :)

Nalano
05-09-2012, 01:03 PM
Like the exploiters where being disruptive and violated the implied ToS?

What does this idea that someone was banned for flipping a coin have to do with what happened? Nobody, as far as I know, has been banned because they were flipping a coin or AN needed to free up server space.

My favorite places are those where the bans for violating the (actual) ToS are labeled as "ARENANET ARE BEING RANDOM AND CAPRICIOUS" yet the very same people bitching about that are perfectly fine with wanting to boot players (http://jadequarry.com/forum/post/last/m/6492678/viewthread/4177800-jq-ideas-for-wvw-admins-please-read) who are doing the dastardly, evil deeds of killing yaks in WvW. "OH MY GOD WE LOST A MATCH KILL THE INFIDELS"

victory
05-09-2012, 01:03 PM
ITT: GW2 players who violated the ToS and tried to take advantage of an exploit that they knew was an exploit try to justify why cheating and being greedy should be okay.
ITT: people try to claim "play the game too effectively = ban" is a reasonable external rule for a game, and that MMOs and their developers are special snowflakes who are uniquely incapable of fixing their games so they need such fuzzy rules while no one else does.

Nalano
05-09-2012, 01:06 PM
ITT: people try to claim "play the game too effectively = ban" is a reasonable external rule for a game, and that MMOs and their developers are special snowflakes who are uniquely incapable of fixing their games so they need such fuzzy rules while no one else does.

"Play the game too effectively."

You have a promising career ahead of you in Fox News.

"People should stop complaining about his record in Bain Capital, exporting jobs and gutting American companies for his personal profit. He's just really good at capitalism."

deano2099
05-09-2012, 01:08 PM
My favorite places are those where the bans for violating the (actual) ToS are labeled as "ARENANET ARE BEING RANDOM AND CAPRICIOUS" yet the very same people bitching about that are perfectly fine with wanting to boot players (http://jadequarry.com/forum/post/last/m/6492678/viewthread/4177800-jq-ideas-for-wvw-admins-please-read) who are doing the dastardly, evil deeds of killing yaks in WvW. "OH MY GOD WE LOST A MATCH KILL THE INFIDELS"

I can't see anything in that thread about wanting to boot them from the game? Just booting people from the organised forums for PvP that don't want to do PvP it seems?

Nalano
05-09-2012, 01:22 PM
I can't see anything in that thread about wanting to boot them from the game? Just booting people from the organised forums for PvP that don't want to do PvP it seems?

It's a server forum and most of their complaints are "I can't WvW because of all the yak farmers (and thus we lost.) KILL THE YAK FARMERS."

deano2099
05-09-2012, 01:24 PM
It's a server forum and most of their complaints are "I can't WvW because of all the yak farmers (and thus we lost.) KILL THE YAK FARMERS."

They mean in game right? Kill the characters in game? Must be...

They don't just mean in game do they?

Although this thread has put me off buying the game, the chance to be a yak farmer is swinging me back the other way again...

hamster
05-09-2012, 03:22 PM
Like the exploiters where being disruptive and violated the implied ToS?

What does this idea that someone was banned for flipping a coin have to do with what happened? Nobody, as far as I know, has been banned because they were flipping a coin or AN needed to free up server space.

I question whether there is something in the ToS that gives them the right to dole out bans for exploits. In any case even if it is there, I wonder how many people actually know about it.

Jesus_Phish
05-09-2012, 03:30 PM
I question whether there is something in the ToS that gives them the right to dole out bans for exploits. In any case even if it is there, I wonder how many people actually know about it.

Considering how many people read the ToS or EULAs that pop up before you start playing an MMO I doubt many knew about it until it was too late.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/ see rule 17
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-conduct-breaches-outcomes/

It's also in the EULA that you won't use/show other players any bugs/exploits and that you are to read it first. It also says if you reject them you can get a refund, so people can't say "I bought it and couldn't get my money back because I opened the package".

hamster
05-09-2012, 04:01 PM
Hard to say whether this constitutes a "bug". And then there's the usual nonsense about stuff being at their sole discretion. Um i guess they can get away with it, maybe, since the ban is only temporary.

Nalano
05-09-2012, 04:28 PM
They don't just mean in game do they?

Although this thread has put me off buying the game, the chance to be a yak farmer is swinging me back the other way again...

If you're just being a contrarian for the sake of being one, keep it up.

If you're not, then be advised that you've stopped making sense a while ago.


Hard to say whether this constitutes a "bug". And then there's the usual nonsense about stuff being at their sole discretion. Um i guess they can get away with it, maybe, since the ban is only temporary.

In that the definition of a bug is an unintended error by a programmer or designer, how was this not a bug?

victory
05-09-2012, 05:00 PM
"Play the game too effectively."

You have a promising career ahead of you in Fox News.

"People should stop complaining about his record in Bain Capital, exporting jobs and gutting American companies for his personal profit. He's just really good at capitalism."
The only difference between someone who finds a cheap item at a vendor and buys 10 items, and someone who buys 200 items, is that the latter used the situation more efficiently to his advantage.

AN could distill their ToS down to "we may ban you at any time for any reason, but we are more likely to do if you cause work for us or other customers dislike you". That seems to encapsulate their actual policy, which is that they are running a playpen instead of a game. I'd like that ToS better since it's honest about being arbitrary.

deano2099
05-09-2012, 05:18 PM
If you're just being a contrarian for the sake of being one, keep it up.

If you're not, then be advised that you've stopped making sense a while ago.


I was aiming for funny. I figured killing the people not PvPing in a PvP zone was fair game and not something worth shouting about.

AgamemnonV1
05-09-2012, 06:55 PM
In that the definition of a bug is an unintended error by a programmer or designer, how was this not a bug?
Obviously because enough angry children who exploited it are yelling that isn't.

Hypernetic
05-09-2012, 07:03 PM
The only difference between someone who finds a cheap item at a vendor and buys 10 items, and someone who buys 200 items, is that the latter used the situation more efficiently to his advantage.

AN could distill their ToS down to "we may ban you at any time for any reason, but we are more likely to do if you cause work for us or other customers dislike you". That seems to encapsulate their actual policy, which is that they are running a playpen instead of a game. I'd like that ToS better since it's honest about being arbitrary.

Holy fuck man. If you do something in life (be it an exploit in an MMO or something in real life) be prepared to deal with the consequences. If you can't handle the consequence of a temporary ban, don't do things that seem like exploiting. If you can't tell if something is an exploit or not, play it safe.

If you can handle the risk of being banned, then by all means, continue what you were doing. Just don't come crying to me (or anyone else) when you do get banned.

Real world criminals operate under these basic principles every day, it's time you did the same.

If I get arrested for selling drugs I don't turn around and blame the justice system for allowing drugs to be smuggled into the country, I accept my punishment and move on.

So basically, deal with it.

deano2099
05-09-2012, 07:12 PM
If I get arrested for selling drugs I don't turn around and blame the justice system for allowing drugs to be smuggled into the country, I accept my punishment and move on.

But if the cops sold you the drugs in the first place that's entrapment...

jquinn914
05-09-2012, 07:20 PM
But if the cops sold you the drugs in the first place that's entrapment...

Yep, but what you're doing is inconsistently converting an analogy. I get what you're thinking, "Vendors sell items, Devs made vendors", "Vendors are cops, cops sell drugs". The thing is that would imply the devs intentionally sold you those under-priced items to catch you cheating which I'd hope they did not. Cops failing to control drug imports is directly comparable to the devs failing to code an exploit free game and if you'd like to argue you that thinking this is purely my opinion against yours understand there's a nice line of logic that can prove this point to be at least valid if not sound as well.

Nalano
05-09-2012, 08:21 PM
The only difference between someone who finds a cheap item at a vendor and buys 10 items, and someone who buys 200 items, is that the latter used the situation more efficiently to his advantage.

You are aware of the concept of "severity of offense," right?

deano2099
05-09-2012, 09:11 PM
You are aware of the concept of "severity of offense," right?

But the problem is the effect on the economy right? That's what I'm told. In this case, would 1000 people exploiting it once not have the same effect as one person exploiting it 1000 times? The economy would be screwed if everyone did it once... (doesn't make the point wrong, but I find it interesting).


@jquinn good point, well made

Hypernetic
05-09-2012, 09:16 PM
But if the cops sold you the drugs in the first place that's entrapment...

No it's not. In this specific case you were willing to break the law without the assistance of the officer. So if a cop posing as a drug dealer offers you some drugs, you have the choice to say no. If you say yes that is not entrapment, but rather a sting operation.

Police women pose as prostitutes all the time in stings to catch men who are looking to pay for sex. They do this with drugs as well, although it's usually the other way around where a cop is buying drugs from a dealer since it is in their best interest to catch the dealers and not the users.

Entrapment would be something like an undercover FBI agent becoming friends with you and then saying "hey we should rob a bank". You say "no" and then for the next few days/weeks he persuades you to rob the bank with him. The FBI agent then provides the weapons, man power, and getaway vehicle for the heist and afterwards arrests you for robbing the bank. That is entrapment.

Basically you have to be unable and unwilling to commit the crime without the direct influence, persuasion, and assistance of the officer for it to be entrapment.

Grizzly
05-09-2012, 10:09 PM
But the problem is the effect on the economy right? That's what I'm told. In this case, would 1000 people exploiting it once not have the same effect as one person exploiting it 1000 times? The economy would be screwed if everyone did it once... (doesn't make the point wrong, but I find it interesting).


@jquinn good point, well made

The difference is that these 1000 people are not acting as one group. If a shaky building breaks down because quite a few people leaned against it, they should not be punished as much as the guy who breaks it down with a wrecker.


No it's not. In this specific case you were willing to break the law without the assistance of the officer. So if a cop posing as a drug dealer offers you some drugs, you have the choice to say no. If you say yes that is not entrapment, but rather a sting operation.

According to Dutch Law, the police is not allowed to break the law in order to aquire evidence against those who do break the law. Your argument is a bit too... national for it to stand on it's own.

Hypernetic
05-09-2012, 11:50 PM
The difference is that these 1000 people are not acting as one group. If a shaky building breaks down because quite a few people leaned against it, they should not be punished as much as the guy who breaks it down with a wrecker.



According to Dutch Law, the police is not allowed to break the law in order to aquire evidence against those who do break the law. Your argument is a bit too... national for it to stand on it's own.

That has nothing to do with entrapment.

Nalano
06-09-2012, 05:28 AM
But the problem is the effect on the economy right? That's what I'm told. In this case, would 1000 people exploiting it once not have the same effect as one person exploiting it 1000 times? The economy would be screwed if everyone did it once... (doesn't make the point wrong, but I find it interesting).


How about this: Instead of responding to each and every one of your silly "what if..." posts, why don't you actually come out and state an opinion and be done with it, so I can sit here and snipe at you?

Tritagonist
06-09-2012, 11:25 AM
Entrapment would be something like an undercover FBI agent becoming friends with you and then saying "hey we should rob a bank". You say "no" and then for the next few days/weeks he persuades you to rob the bank with him. The FBI agent then provides the weapons, man power, and getaway vehicle for the heist and afterwards arrests you for robbing the bank. That is entrapment.
And for a both troublesome and hilarious-due-to-incompetence take on such a scheme, This American Life's episode 'The Convert' (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/471/the-convert) about convicted forger and FBI-informant Craig "Farouk al-Aziz" Monteilh is recommended listening. This news story (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/04/AR2010120403720.html) by the Washington Post details the aftermath.

hamster
06-09-2012, 12:12 PM
Holy fuck man. If you do something in life (be it an exploit in an MMO or something in real life) be prepared to deal with the consequences. If you can't handle the consequence of a temporary ban, don't do things that seem like exploiting. If you can't tell if something is an exploit or not, play it safe.

If you can handle the risk of being banned, then by all means, continue what you were doing. Just don't come crying to me (or anyone else) when you do get banned.

Real world criminals operate under these basic principles every day, it's time you did the same.

If I get arrested for selling drugs I don't turn around and blame the justice system for allowing drugs to be smuggled into the country, I accept my punishment and move on.

So basically, deal with it.

All of this has jack all to do with criminal law. The context is different. This is a video game which people voluntarily paid for. People who bought the game are customers. Is this really the correct attitude for ANet to take? That's what it boils down to. Of course they are allegedly entitled to. It just seems to me that the best practice to take for situations like this, where the exploit is made possible by a programming mistake, rather than hacks, is to reverse the effects of the exploit.

deano2099
06-09-2012, 12:51 PM
How about this: Instead of responding to each and every one of your silly "what if..." posts, why don't you actually come out and state an opinion and be done with it, so I can sit here and snipe at you?

I did that earlier in the thread. Not sure why anyone would care about my opinion though, I'm just a guy.

Nalano
06-09-2012, 01:13 PM
All of this has jack all to do with criminal law. The context is different. This is a video game which people voluntarily paid for. People who bought the game are customers. Is this really the correct attitude for ANet to take? That's what it boils down to. Of course they are allegedly entitled to. It just seems to me that the best practice to take for situations like this, where the exploit is made possible by a programming mistake, rather than hacks, is to reverse the effects of the exploit.

In what world is gaming a god-given right?

I mean, if you wanna boil it all down, then you'll have to accept the ToS and the EULA and common sense about the game design and the other gristle that still makes the whole "it's possible, therefore it's condoned" argument unfeasible.

hamster
06-09-2012, 02:25 PM
In what world is gaming a god-given right?

I mean, if you wanna boil it all down, then you'll have to accept the ToS and the EULA and common sense about the game design and the other gristle that still makes the whole "it's possible, therefore it's condoned" argument unfeasible.

My point is that it's a luxury that you paid for. Anet's clients expecting decent treatment from them is a reasonable expectation, is it not? In what industry are sellers that antagonistic to their clients? Just doesn't sense. The whole banning for exploit thing - for a stupid exploit that doesn't involve reverse engineering the game - is utterly inexplicable to me.

pmh
06-09-2012, 03:21 PM
Anet's clients expecting decent treatment from them is a reasonable expectation, is it not? In what industry are sellers that antagonistic to their clients? Just doesn't sense. The whole banning for exploit thing - for a stupid exploit that doesn't involve reverse engineering the game - is utterly inexplicable to me.

Those that did not exploit the bug are also Anet's clients. Those who exploited the bug did not do so in a vacuum and so Anet must consider the interests of their other clients as well.

Nalano
06-09-2012, 03:28 PM
My point is that it's a luxury that you paid for. Anet's clients expecting decent treatment from them is a reasonable expectation, is it not? In what industry are sellers that antagonistic to their clients? Just doesn't sense. The whole banning for exploit thing - for a stupid exploit that doesn't involve reverse engineering the game - is utterly inexplicable to me.

This is not a single-player game.

I don't care that you're a paying customer receiving bottle service in the nightclub. If you're causing a scene, you're out​.

Jesus_Phish
06-09-2012, 03:34 PM
This is not a single-player game.

I don't care that you're a paying customer receiving bottle service in the nightclub. If you're causing a scene, you're out​.


Basically what he said. You can pay into a nightclub that's giving out free drinks all night, but start acting the mick and you're going to get thrown out. Good luck getting the manager/owners to refund you money either. And they don't even ask you to click a button to agree to their EULA or TOS!!

hamster
06-09-2012, 04:03 PM
This is not a single-player game.

I don't care that you're a paying customer receiving bottle service in the nightclub. If you're causing a scene, you're out​.

There is a huge difference between buying 140x of an incorrectly valued item and physically causing a scene in real life. Indirect and direct. Physical and not physical. Severity of offense.

Nalano
06-09-2012, 04:14 PM
There is a huge difference between buying 140x of an incorrectly valued item and physically causing a scene in real life. Indirect and direct. Physical and not physical. Severity of offense.

You really, really like mixing analogies, don't you?

Here, a pertinent post (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?6042-Guild-Wars-2-and-It-s-Schizophrenic-Exploit-Policy&p=186058&viewfull=1#post186058) for you.

Hypernetic
06-09-2012, 04:16 PM
There is a huge difference between buying 140x of an incorrectly valued item and physically causing a scene in real life. Indirect and direct. Physical and not physical. Severity of offense.

Right at the exploiters were only banned for 3 days, it's not like they were publicly executed.

david_lph_
06-09-2012, 04:22 PM
Games like these are presented to us as a online service. The game developer in this case is our service provider. The EULA and TOS are the terms you have both agreed on and should be respected by both parties. This is the players own responsibilty.

Most people know this, since it all very obvious :).

But then when shit hits the fan, suddenly: Its just a game! and the developer is an evil moneygrabbing tyrant! Its not real items!

I do think however that the TOS and EULA, in most cases, could be presented to the player in a more user-friendly and transparent way. (maybe in a nice ingame cinematic? )

Nalano
06-09-2012, 04:25 PM
Right at the exploiters were only banned for 3 days, it's not like they were publicly executed.

No, that's reserved for yak farmers.

Shooop
06-09-2012, 06:07 PM
You did it close to 200 times.

You knew it was a problem even and you kept doing it. By reporting it and continuing to do it you've made yourself out to be an incredible hypocrite.

Hensler
06-09-2012, 06:50 PM
Guild Wars 2 sure is a fun game!

ambing1
30-09-2012, 04:42 AM
Guild Wars 2 sure is a fun game!

can't agree more on that. i've been to WoW but i think GW2 is a terrific game in itself.

TotalKitty
30-09-2012, 06:32 PM
They didn't "retroactively decide" that the prices were 1% of the intended prices. They misplaced a decimal point during an update and people took advantage.

The trading post has been up for some, and people could exploit the mystic forge with the (incredibly cheap) materials with the intent of flooding the market when it would be up for all.

Being that the game is just getting started, large influxes of this kind of shit would have outsized effects in the gameplay right when people are getting the feel of the game, so it's shoot first, ask questions later.

My suggestion is: Suck it up. The people who have a right to complain are the ones who were hacked and have to wait for ArenaNet to put out this fire before they can go on to reinstate their accounts.

If the devs make a mistake they shouldn't take it out on people, not even when the said people take advantage of it. It's only natural that humanbeings take an advantage where they can.
Punishing players based on their own mistakes is poor management.

if anyone should suck anything up, it should be ANet and realize "Ok, we made a mistake - our bad".

hamster
30-09-2012, 07:13 PM
You really, really like mixing analogies, don't you?

It's more or less the same thing. The post you linked to is irrelevant.

Nalano
01-10-2012, 01:17 PM
Punishing players based on their own mistakes is poor management.

"Oops, I hit the 'buy' button six hundred times."


It's more or less the same thing. The post you linked to is irrelevant.

Not gonna explain to you what an analogy is, though you desperately need to learn.

hamster
01-10-2012, 03:21 PM
Not gonna explain to you what an analogy is, though you desperately need to learn.

It's your own analogy, actually.

Bankrotas
01-10-2012, 03:40 PM
If the devs make a mistake they shouldn't take it out on people, not even when the said people take advantage of it. It's only natural that humanbeings take an advantage where they can.
Punishing players based on their own mistakes is poor management.

if anyone should suck anything up, it should be ANet and realize "Ok, we made a mistake - our bad".
Except it was not a mistake. It was an act of exploitation, with full knowledge that this can harm other players while giving you more power.
I would argue about being human is natural to take advantages of everything they can, but I'm too lazy to go all philosophical on this, since your statement is easily derailed to excuses for murder and other crimes.

TotalKitty
01-10-2012, 06:04 PM
Except it was not a mistake. It was an act of exploitation, with full knowledge that this can harm other players while giving you more power.
I would argue about being human is natural to take advantages of everything they can, but I'm too lazy to go all philosophical on this, since your statement is easily derailed to excuses for murder and other crimes.

Nah, concerning the whole murder aspect, I'll let Nalano deal with that discussion (as it has zero to do with this).
Also, you clearly misread my post. Nowhere did i mention, or intended to mention players making any mistake. What I said was the devs made mistakes, and that shouldn't punish players whether they used an exploit or not.
As I fisnished my post, I shall now repeat myself: "if anyone should suck anything up, it should be ANet and realize "Ok, we made a mistake - our bad"."

gundato
01-10-2012, 06:06 PM
Nah, concerning the whole murder aspect, I'll let Nalano deal with that discussion (as it has zero to do with this).
Also, you clearly misread my post. Nowhere did i mention, or intended to mention players making any mistake. What I said was the devs made mistakes, and that shouldn't punish players whether they used an exploit or not.
As I fisnished my post, I shall now repeat myself: "if anyone should suck anything up, it should be ANet and realize "Ok, we made a mistake - our bad"."
The theory behind it, at least from what I gathered of the official statements on it, is that the devs acknowledged they messed up. But they are still banning people because it shows just what kind of people they are. If someone is going to knowingly exploit a flaw/mistake (because ALL exploits are mistakes of the developers), ArenaNet doesn't want them playing. Because they'll just do the same crap again and again and again.

Nalano
01-10-2012, 06:33 PM
Nah, concerning the whole murder aspect, I'll let Nalano deal with that discussion (as it has zero to do with this).
Also, you clearly misread my post. Nowhere did i mention, or intended to mention players making any mistake. What I said was the devs made mistakes, and that shouldn't punish players whether they used an exploit or not.
As I fisnished my post, I shall now repeat myself: "if anyone should suck anything up, it should be ANet and realize "Ok, we made a mistake - our bad"."

As mentioned earlier in this discussion, it's still illegal to rob somebody, even if they left their door unlocked. You can call the poor guy a dolt for leaving his door unlocked - and you'd be right - but that does not preclude him from prosecuting the thieves to the fullest extent of the law.

hamster
01-10-2012, 07:08 PM
As mentioned earlier in this discussion, it's still illegal to rob somebody, even if they left their door unlocked. You can call the poor guy a dolt for leaving his door unlocked - and you'd be right - but that does not preclude him from prosecuting the thieves to the fullest extent of the law.

Oh jesus, should I repeat what you said to me about analogies? It would actually be applicable this time 'round though.

TotalKitty
01-10-2012, 07:11 PM
As mentioned earlier in this discussion, it's still illegal to rob somebody, even if they left their door unlocked. You can call the poor guy a dolt for leaving his door unlocked - and you'd be right - but that does not preclude him from prosecuting the thieves to the fullest extent of the law.

Comparing an actual criminal law to an exploit in a game - It has become a discussion about principal then. Take the fun out of a game huh! Your examples are getting more and more crazy throughout this thread.

deano2099
01-10-2012, 07:13 PM
The analogies are all pointless as a game isn't the real world. The rules and laws of the real world can't be physically enforced at the basic interaction level (at least not yet). In a game they can. In fact, most rules in a game aren't written down, as they're simply encoded into the game's systems instead. For example, like the real world, there's a rule that you can't mug someone in Guild Wars 2. That rule is expressed and enforced by not providing the player with the mechanism to perform a mugging.

Of course, games can have bugs, and that's where it gets awkward. A bug may allow someone to act outside the game's rules in a way the developer didn't intend. It's hard for the player to know exactly when there's a bug, unless the player has a full comprehension of the game's systems. Of course, if said player buys 200 of item X, he probably does. Though this creates the dilemma of never being able to surprise or delight the player, as having a comprehension of the systems and what's possible and what's a bug is necessary.

So MMOs end up in this weird place where you have to have a layer of real-world rules on top of the rules defined by the game itself to cover for bugs.

Nalano
01-10-2012, 08:08 PM
The analogies are all pointless as a game isn't the real world. The rules and laws of the real world can't be physically enforced at the basic interaction level (at least not yet). In a game they can. In fact, most rules in a game aren't written down, as they're simply encoded into the game's systems instead. For example, like the real world, there's a rule that you can't mug someone in Guild Wars 2. That rule is expressed and enforced by not providing the player with the mechanism to perform a mugging.

Of course, games can have bugs, and that's where it gets awkward. A bug may allow someone to act outside the game's rules in a way the developer didn't intend. It's hard for the player to know exactly when there's a bug, unless the player has a full comprehension of the game's systems. Of course, if said player buys 200 of item X, he probably does. Though this creates the dilemma of never being able to surprise or delight the player, as having a comprehension of the systems and what's possible and what's a bug is necessary.

So MMOs end up in this weird place where you have to have a layer of real-world rules on top of the rules defined by the game itself to cover for bugs.

I understand that common sense isn't, but the supposition that we don't have general guidelines to work off of is either daft or sinister.


Oh jesus, should I repeat what you said to me about analogies? It would actually be applicable this time 'round though.

That you still don't understand them? It still stands. I mean, damn, man. Damn.

hamster
02-10-2012, 02:19 PM
That you still don't understand them? It still stands. I mean, damn, man. Damn.

Kindly stop humiliating yourself. I feel sick from the empathy.

deano2099
02-10-2012, 02:48 PM
I understand that common sense isn't, but the supposition that we don't have general guidelines to work off of is either daft or sinister.

Well it depends. Consider someone that's never played an MMO before. Then consider someone that's never played a videogame before, coming to GW2 for the first time. I don't think any of the people involved were 'innocent' and I think they knew exactly what they were doing. But I can certainly see someone coming along with no notion of how these games work, and thinking that searching for vendors that sell stuff significantly cheaper than others is part of the game mechanics. It certainly is in other games (X, Elite for example). It's not beyond the realms of possibility.

Which is why it bothers me, as it says ANet can't put that mechanic in the game, and they expect players to know that and view it as an exploit. Which means you can't put anything in the game that gives the player a significant boost, and is unexpected. Because if a player encounters such a thing, you expect them to report it as an exploit, not go "wow, awesome".

gundato
02-10-2012, 03:24 PM
Well it depends. Consider someone that's never played an MMO before. Then consider someone that's never played a videogame before, coming to GW2 for the first time. I don't think any of the people involved were 'innocent' and I think they knew exactly what they were doing. But I can certainly see someone coming along with no notion of how these games work, and thinking that searching for vendors that sell stuff significantly cheaper than others is part of the game mechanics. It certainly is in other games (X, Elite for example). It's not beyond the realms of possibility.

Which is why it bothers me, as it says ANet can't put that mechanic in the game, and they expect players to know that and view it as an exploit. Which means you can't put anything in the game that gives the player a significant boost, and is unexpected. Because if a player encounters such a thing, you expect them to report it as an exploit, not go "wow, awesome".

I think it was mentioned before that the cost was on the other of less than 100 for some REALLY good high tier gear.

If you take ANYONE and have them go to a store and they see a TV for 10 bucks, that is going to raise some eyebrows. If they decide to exploit that for themselves, so be it (that is why ANet didn't ban people who bought a small number). If they start clearing every store shelf to sell later (basically they are the people who populate Cheapass Gamers :p), that is something else.

Also, while I was not online at the time, it is a safe bet that map-chat was full of people saying "Oh my god, ANet screwed up and we can buy this cheap. Yay". So that should have raised a few red flags too.

Phantoon
02-10-2012, 08:01 PM
Weren't that many people out there at the time, Gundato. Those that saw the weapon before it was fixed were not only hauling ass, but looking at the wrong vendor. If I recall correctly, the exploit was only up for almost two days.

Nalano
02-10-2012, 08:47 PM
Well it depends. Consider someone that's never played an MMO before. Then consider someone that's never played a videogame before, coming to GW2 for the first time. I don't think any of the people involved were 'innocent' and I think they knew exactly what they were doing. But I can certainly see someone coming along with no notion of how these games work, and thinking that searching for vendors that sell stuff significantly cheaper than others is part of the game mechanics. It certainly is in other games (X, Elite for example). It's not beyond the realms of possibility.

Which is why it bothers me, as it says ANet can't put that mechanic in the game, and they expect players to know that and view it as an exploit. Which means you can't put anything in the game that gives the player a significant boost, and is unexpected. Because if a player encounters such a thing, you expect them to report it as an exploit, not go "wow, awesome".

They'd not only have to be completely new to vidja games, but they'd also have to be completely new to buying things in general not to immediately recognize, "hey, this is really, really cheap. Suspiciously so, even."

In fact, that level of general unsavviness would be rather comedic in the other areas where it might manifest itself. I'm thinking the sorts of folks who get their identities stolen once every six months.

deano2099
02-10-2012, 09:42 PM
They'd not only have to be completely new to vidja games, but they'd also have to be completely new to buying things in general not to immediately recognize, "hey, this is really, really cheap. Suspiciously so, even."


But it's a game. It's not real. And that's my point. Same for Gundato's TV analogy. And all of them. We're meant to think something suspiciously cheap in a game is 'wrong' based on our experiences in real life. In a game about mystical creatures and magic and fighting things?

Sure, people with a background in MMOs might know that, if there is a trading component, it's only ever player-to-player and bargain-hunting from NPCs tends not to be a mechanic. But that's actually a fairly arcane piece of information to know.

Hypernetic
02-10-2012, 09:48 PM
But it's a game. It's not real. And that's my point. Same for Gundato's TV analogy. And all of them. We're meant to think something suspiciously cheap in a game is 'wrong' based on our experiences in real life. In a game about mystical creatures and magic and fighting things?

Sure, people with a background in MMOs might know that, if there is a trading component, it's only ever player-to-player and bargain-hunting from NPCs tends not to be a mechanic. But that's actually a fairly arcane piece of information to know.

And that's why they didn't get a permanent ban and instead got a 3 day ban. It's like slapping the hand of a child reaching into a cookie jar.

deano2099
02-10-2012, 10:05 PM
And that's why they didn't get a permanent ban and instead got a 3 day ban. It's like slapping the hand of a child reaching into a cookie jar.

Yeah, since they changed it I've had no problems with that. It's not the ban or the punishment that bothers me now. It's that the game can't do anything awesome that benefits the player as it's been established that, in those situations, the player is expected to report it as an exploit and not use it.

Nalano
02-10-2012, 10:56 PM
But it's a game. It's not real. And that's my point.

It's a game based (loosely) on the same recognizable world we live in. Nothing is so truly alien that a neophyte can't figure out intention.

Conversely, it's a game. It's not real. And neither is a banthammer a prison term.


It's that the game can't do anything awesome that benefits the player as it's been established that, in those situations, the player is expected to report it as an exploit and not use it.

I'm pretty sure "essentially free e-shit" isn't worthy of the term "awesome." And as somebody who's played a lot of competitive MMOPvP, defining the line between "creative use of game mechanics" and "cheating" is an art form and part of the fun.

For instance: Placing a siege engine in a ridiculous spot that's hard to counter? Creative use of game mechanics.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e342/jonmphy/gw324.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e342/jonmphy/gw333.jpg

Using a low-level consumable to repair otherwise un-repairable siege engines? Cheating.

Anybody who gets bant doing the latter? Has intimate knowledge of the gameplay and design intent, has experimented a lot with everything given them, knows exactly what they're doing, and has accepted the risk.