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View Full Version : Everyone says LoL is better than HoN but...



MoLAoS
03-09-2012, 12:47 PM
HoN is clearly superior to LoL because Ophelia.

grab whispering and res stone on ophelia while farming jungle. dominate 4 vulture lords and 3 minotaurs and 1 wolf commander inside 20 minutes. Continue to farm jungle while casting 400 heal global ulti for team mates.

2 enemy champions chase almost dead team mate into jungle. cast ulti to heal for 400. start 4 vulture lord tornadoes dealing 45 aoe magic damage a second. put 3 minotaurs right in tornadoes. 2 enemys charge in, cast mintoaur 2 second aoe stun. wait 2 seconds, stun again. hit res stone to heal ally, self, and all minions 400 or to full. cast 300 damage magic nuke. cast 3rd and final minotaur stun.

2 enemies just about to get a kill take 1700 magic damage each while be stun locked for 6 seconds. previously mentioned 8 dominated minions deal 800 physical damage to each enemy because minotaurs have not only a stun but each has a 15% attack speed aura and wolf commander gives 30% base damage aura plus he himself has a 20% 2x crit passive.

whole fucking time i am pushing the bottom lane with another wolf commander buffing my double creep wave and raping towers. Also cast my Q 28% extra damage taken spell and W 300 magic damage nuke to assist my lane partner in getting yet another hero kill, then teleport him back to base with another W so he doesn't have to spend time running or blowing a homecoming stone cooldown.

get chased by another enemy hero. run into jungle and use yet another minotaur to stun them while i escape. creep army picked up yet another creep wave and kept pushing with wolf commander damage buff while both remaining enemy champions were chasing me. killed a base turret and 2 barracks to give us super creeps.

so basically stomped 2 turrets and both ranged and melee barracks and picked up a hat trick as a support who jungles early to give solo top level advantage. only lost the creep wave wolf commander and bottom lane minotaur guarding my retreat. those were both dominated by my E Command spell which can control 3 creeps and only has a 30 second cooldown to store up to 3 charges so it costs me literally nothing to replace creeps. top lane creeps were from whispering helm/res stone combo and that has a 2 creeps per 4 minutes cooldown, goodthing while pwning 2 enemies at once while pushing an entirely different lane i didnt lose any minions due to 6 second stun lock while saving my ally from dying.

and the best part? 8 minions with whisper res stone ophelia in 20-25 minutes is a typical game. I didn't even get lucky with getting fed on kills or finding the optimal level creep camp.

did i mention one of my team mates was engineer? so when i did my mino stun on those 2 enemies and they chase mino down to kill him they ran into my allies 9 stacking spider mines thus dealing 2700 magic damage instantly and get us a double tap which added to my hate trick means a genocide. hence why they couldn't do fuck all about my wolf commader boosted creep army pushing their base turrets.

Plus when my minions aren't pwning hard they serve as built in wards for jungle control.

Oh my bad, in league of legends you get an uncontrollable 21 second life malzahar pet that deals like 300 damage over its whole life time. don't feel bad league, that's kinda like having ophelia.

hat tricks with under rated support are the best. enemies all rage quit after i took their bottom lane super creep barracks out.

and another reason hon is superior? if you leave right after dying it yells this once for each quitting champion:

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quit!

Utnac
03-09-2012, 01:18 PM
Dota 2 > HoN > LoL

That is all.

Skull
03-09-2012, 01:44 PM
I enjoy LoL because it's a good introduction to the genre. It's a very easy game to pick up and play but the complexities are still there if you want them. What the OP said made no sense and was just a load of waffle.

MoLAoS
03-09-2012, 01:54 PM
I described epic minion domination abuse. Which isn't possible in LoL.

Ravelle
03-09-2012, 02:57 PM
Who cares really? We all have our own opinions about our games, not one moba is better or worse than the other.

Nalano
03-09-2012, 03:10 PM
Who cares really? We all have our own opinions about our games, not one moba is better or worse than the other.

Hush. Let them epeen; it can only mean entertainment for the rest of us.

Anthile
03-09-2012, 03:28 PM
Mhmm, yes, I understand some of these words.

Casimir Effect
03-09-2012, 03:58 PM
No idea what that just said. I don't know what it is but there's something incredibly off-putting about a genre/game when it develops it's own vernacular.

Batolemaeus
03-09-2012, 04:27 PM
I never quite knew how to put my contempt for that particular genre into words, so instead of explaining I might just link to the first post in the future.

Feldspar
03-09-2012, 04:30 PM
Personally I prefer it when you get the gespluntniks to hrunt the wintazzle, but there you go, each to his own.

Come to think of it, I have no idea what HoN is suppose to stand for, Hall of Nincompoops?

Utnac
03-09-2012, 06:46 PM
I never quite knew how to put my contempt for that particular genre into words, so instead of explaining I might just link to the first post in the future.

It sums up the entire genre quite superbly. I really enjoy 'MOBAs' a lot, played HoN and Dota2 at relatively high levels with a couple of friends and had a lot of fun but eventually the shocking community just wore me down. It brings out the worst in you playing these sort of very competitive games, I must confess I've made the occasional comment that I just wouldn't make in any other game or in real life.

khaz
03-09-2012, 06:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zubIGS9p3jw&feature=player_embedded

Chessie's Ophelia in the final of the most recent HoN tourney. He playes for Complexity and they're up against Trademark (TdM) in the grand finals.

Ophelia = Chen (Virtually identical)

Minotaurs = Centaur Khan(s)

The turtle is called Bubbles (Port of Puck), the big glowing lava rock is Magmus (Sand King). The other heroes are HoN only.

He proceeds to wipe the enemy team. Insane micro and awareness. :)

Heliocentric
03-09-2012, 06:55 PM
Sulfuric acid poured into your eyes>Dota 2 > HoN > LoL

That is all.

Fixed that for you.

Ravelle
03-09-2012, 09:13 PM
Fixed that for you.

Hey now, don't get too extreme there. ;p

Gorzan
03-09-2012, 10:15 PM
No idea what that just said. I don't know what it is but there's something incredibly off-putting about a genre/game when it develops it's own vernacular.
Pretty much this.

khaz
03-09-2012, 11:02 PM
No idea what that just said. I don't know what it is but there's something incredibly off-putting about a genre/game when it develops it's own vernacular.

Odd statement. Every culture and sub-culture within will always develop (Usually) its own vernacular. FPS, MMOs, MOBAs, RTS games etc. all have their own terminologies. I don't see why it should be any different in this case?

Gorzan
03-09-2012, 11:18 PM
MMOs I can accept, but I can't a realistic way someone could make a discussion about an FPS or RTS this obtuse.

victory
03-09-2012, 11:28 PM
No idea what that just said. I don't know what it is but there's something incredibly off-putting about a genre/game when it develops it's own vernacular.Err, that would be every game that has a bit of depth to it. To get good you have to think at a higher level of abstraction, and for that you need names for those abstractions.

Casimir Effect
03-09-2012, 11:45 PM
Odd statement. Every culture and sub-culture within will always develop (Usually) its own vernacular. FPS, MMOs, MOBAs, RTS games etc. all have their own terminologies. I don't see why it should be any different in this case?
Perhaps I should have said "a certain, obnoxious level of vernacular".
MMOs are in the same class as MOBAs, and perhaps Starcraft is as well, but everything else just has the minimum which can be said to characterise most hobbies, sports or even jobs.

But these former genres, they are in a class of their own. Pointless abbreviations, esoteric wordings and lots of the most awful types of internet/gaming terms - such as "pwn", "gank" and "rape" - form the lexicon. It's just all so unnecessary, and reeks of people trying to build in a form of exclusivity that will eventually prove a detriment in the long run. Or trying (and failing) to make it sound a lot cooler than the reality - a brightly-coloured clusterfuck of undulating midgets running around occasionally firing out a new colour before dying. Not sure which is worse really.

But then I come into this biased, not being a fan of MOBA types and irritated at how they, along with tower defense alikes, are becoming the dominant type of "strategy" game being made today.

As an aside, for those wanting e-sports to become a bigger thing and appeal to more than just the hardcore gamer crowd, all this is incredibly counter-productive. Know why football is such a juggernaught when it comes to popularity? You can understand 99% of what's going on after only a few minutes (the offside rule is the 1%). Yet we have here something where a commentator could say "creep army picked up yet another creep wave and kept pushing with wolf commander damage buff while both remaining enemy champions were chasing me" - now there's an audience which is going to saturate in size pretty quickly.

MoLAoS
03-09-2012, 11:52 PM
Conclusion, you guys are stupid.

MMO:
Rez, Mez, aggro, names of like 1000 monsters whereas HoN only has like 15 different neutral creeps, thousands of items compared to HoNs sub 200 items all with their own abbreviations, cc, tank, dps, pretty much MMOs have 90% of the same vernacular as HoN. They have buffs roots snares and so forth just like HoN. They also have auras.

If you can't make an RTS post that is this obtuse then you must not be very good at RTS games.


Don't even get me started about FPS games. Are you kidding? Wall hack, map hack, head shot, teabag, weapon names, sometimes class names, streak names, bonus abilities from streaks, plenty of other stuff but I'm tired of stating the obvious.

You just think you don't have vernacular for your games because you are non-observant(I don't mean unobservant here) and can't reflect on your own thinking. Which is weird, because that's like a 5 year old social skill.

MoLAoS
04-09-2012, 12:01 AM
Perhaps I should have said "a certain, obnoxious level of vernacular".
MMOs are in the same class as MOBAs, and perhaps Starcraft is as well, but everything else just has the minimum which can be said to characterise most hobbies, sports or even jobs.

But these former genres, they are in a class of their own. Pointless abbreviations, esoteric wordings and lots of the most awful types of internet/gaming terms - such as "pwn", "gank" and "rape" - form the lexicon. It's just all so unnecessary, and reeks of people trying to build in a form of exclusivity that will eventually prove a detriment in the long run. Or trying (and failing) to make it sound a lot cooler than the reality - a brightly-coloured clusterfuck of undulating midgets running around occasionally firing out a new colour before dying. Not sure which is worse really.

But then I come into this biased, not being a fan of MOBA types and irritated at how they, along with tower defense alikes, are becoming the dominant type of "strategy" game being made today.

As an aside, for those wanting e-sports to become a bigger thing and appeal to more than just the hardcore gamer crowd, all this is incredibly counter-productive. Know why football is such a juggernaught when it comes to popularity? You can understand 99% of what's going on after only a few minutes (the offside rule is the 1%). Yet we have here something where a commentator could say "creep army picked up yet another creep wave and kept pushing with wolf commander damage buff while both remaining enemy champions were chasing me" - now there's an audience which is going to saturate in size pretty quickly.


I posted it on a gaming forum not celebrity stalker website...

I actually design and program real time and turn based strategy games with about -10000000% esport potential with stuff like city management and hierarchical military organization. Basically the opposite end of the strategy genre from HoN. I don't even like e-sports because its a boring micro fest. I play strictly casually in MOBAs and RTS games. My actions per minute in HoN is like 60 in my best games, average is like 40.

Also, the reasons why football is popular haven't got much to do with simplicity of rule sets. Its a factor, but insignificant in comparison to historical and social factors.

Gorzan
04-09-2012, 12:06 AM
I can make an RTS post as obtuse as this, but I can communicate as much on a much more open way without any effort.
And, we're not saying that other games don't have their own vernacular, just that those aren't quite as ludicrously big and obscure as this. As casimir already stated.

archonsod
04-09-2012, 12:18 AM
Fixed that for you.

Well, it certainly has a higher entertainment value.

MoLAoS
04-09-2012, 12:25 AM
I can make an RTS post as obtuse as this, but I can communicate as much on a much more open way without any effort.
And, we're not saying that other games don't have their own vernacular, just that those aren't quite as ludicrously big and obscure as this. As casimir already stated.

They are as large. They may not be as obscure because they have been around so long that most gamers know them and various shows based on pop culture have brought them into common discourse. But when they first came out they were just as obscure. Aside from maybe the description of neutral creep buffs nothing I posted was obscure MOBA wise.

Gorzan
04-09-2012, 12:54 AM
MOBA wise those might not be too obscure, but for people who don't play MOBAs they are. On the other hand, Headshot, Multikill, Wallhack, rocketjump, etc. are pretty obvious and self explanatory.

Hypernetic
04-09-2012, 01:05 AM
LoL is best, fuck what ya heard.

Heliocentric
04-09-2012, 01:09 AM
MMOs I can accept, but I can't a realistic way someone could make a discussion about an FPS or RTS this obtuse.

I could easily, rts and fps both.

In fact I fail to see how someone could properly discus Swords of the stars or natural selection gamplay without totally alienating non players.

Examples are plentiful.

Gorzan
04-09-2012, 01:21 AM
I think I made myself misunderstood, I didn't mean you could or couldn't make it that hard, I meant I didn't see a realistic scenario on wich this level of obtuseness would be needed, as in most times you can be more clear as easilly.
And of course some games will require a level of obtuseness, but those aren't many.

Casimir Effect
04-09-2012, 01:54 AM
You'd have to go out of your way to make most FPS or RTS sound that obtuse though. For example, I started watching competitive Company of Heroes a while back and understood most of what was going on after a single game - and I've never played the MP (or much SP) of that. Likewise I've watched Quake 3 matches before and known what the commentator was talking about. From personal playing experience, all the while I played TF2 or Unreal Tournament (going some years back with that one) I rarely ran into fan-terms. But watching some of that DOTA2 tournament (or reading the OP here) was like watching Shakespeare in a foreign language - I understand what's going on in a general sense but will be fucked if I know the specifics. And I doubt it needed to have been that way.

I suppose it's a consequence of starting out as a mod with a small community - everyone who would play the game was doing so already and therefore the vocabulary was common in that dark corner of the web. But the game made it big and unfortunately the vocab stuck, which leads to confusion and I predict will contribute to a lack of genre innovation for the next few years - as, like with MMOs post-Everquest (or U:O), developers/publishers become afraid to create something new that would require too much learning.

But this was initially a thread about DOTA dickwaving, so I'll step back, go to bed, and let a LoL fan come shout about how HoN sucks. Then a DOTA2 fan can come an shout at everyone. Then a Blizzard fan for whatever their version will be, and a Smite fan, and an Awesomenauts fan, and an optimistic Sins of a Dark Age fan, and maybe even a Demigod fan, before finally a DOTA1 fan will arrive, whom I can only hope will speak entirely in neither capitalized nor punctuated, obtuse statements.

victory
04-09-2012, 02:25 AM
You'd have to go out of your way to make most FPS or RTS sound that obtuse though. For example, I started watching competitive Company of Heroes a while back and understood most of what was going on after a single game - and I've never played the MP (or much SP) of that. Likewise I've watched Quake 3 matches before and known what the commentator was talking about. From personal playing experience, all the while I played TF2 or Unreal Tournament (going some years back with that one) I rarely ran into fan-terms. But watching some of that DOTA2 tournament (or reading the OP here) was like watching Shakespeare in a foreign language - I understand what's going on in a general sense but will be fucked if I know the specifics. And I doubt it needed to have been that way.
I'm gonna disagree with that - from what I understand of MOBA logic, those games actually are full of obtuse mechanics and tactics (which legitimately need names of their own) and full of names of heroes, skills and items which also legitimately need to be used. The language isn't more complicated than it has to be.

I have never touched a MOBA in my life, but I pretty much understood everything what OP was saying, though obviously I don't know the specific hero/skills/etc. or be able to put the outcomes in context.

Fighting games can have a decent amount of lingo that is simply impenetrable if you haven't played them. For instance, legit Virtua Fighter discussion can contain terms and abbreviations like fuzzy, option select, ETEG, sabaki, H* or special high, -8, +1..3, SS or somersault, and so on. And that's without going into names of specific characters or their moves. The moves (probably about 100 moves per character; 20 different characters) each have a specific name, but in practice people will use compact input markup like 2P+K,K to denote specific moves. Full or descriptive names are occasionally used of "common" moves or move classes, key/signature moves of a character, or stances.

mickygor
04-09-2012, 03:55 AM
I think I made myself misunderstood, I didn't mean you could or couldn't make it that hard, I meant I didn't see a realistic scenario on wich this level of obtuseness would be needed, as in most times you can be more clear as easilly.
And of course some games will require a level of obtuseness, but those aren't many.

How about trollbaiting? That's basically what this is, after all.

MoLAoS
04-09-2012, 04:01 AM
MOBA wise those might not be too obscure, but for people who don't play MOBAs they are. On the other hand, Headshot, Multikill, Wallhack, rocketjump, etc. are pretty obvious and self explanatory.

bullshit. wallhack is not obvious. and way to pick some of the most obvious terms to make your straw man.

camping, tdm, fc, gibbing, nade, hitscan and so forth. i could go on.

Space Indaver
04-09-2012, 04:37 AM
As far as I can make out, you're saying HoN is good because you can shit all over your opponents using one particular character? Sounds like a great e-sport! Wow.

Berzee
04-09-2012, 04:49 AM
Scape Invader, I was just about to request the same clarification. I think that sounds accurate, but who can be sure?

Mohorovicic
04-09-2012, 05:56 AM
No idea what that just said. I don't know what it is but there's something incredibly off-putting about a genre/game when it develops it's own vernacular.

You must find a whole lot of genres/games off-putting then.

Wengart
04-09-2012, 06:29 AM
I'm going to try my hand at describing a scene from Battlefield 3.

My team attacked a capture point and we had a lot of guys with guns. We were doing well until the opposing team brought a tank to reinforce the position. It killed a lot of us until our helicopter blew it up. After the opposing team lost their tank they couldn't stop us and we captured the point.

Now from Starcraft 2.

Player 1 spent all their money on weak soldiers and tried to kill player 2. While player 2 was building his economy. Player 2 predicted this and built a bunker which is really good at killing soldiers. Therefore all of player 1s' soldiers died when they attacked and he couldn't afford to buy anymore. Player 2 used his money to buy some soldiers and killed player 1 with them.

MoLAoS
04-09-2012, 07:20 AM
As far as I can make out, you're saying HoN is good because you can shit all over your opponents using one particular character? Sounds like a great e-sport! Wow.

No, its because if you are smart you can use the least used hero in the entire game to basically smash your enemy when they were not expecting it.

Ophelia is used in less than .5% of games. Because people usually use OP champs like Nomad. But as I said I don't even like e-sports...

MoLAoS
04-09-2012, 07:22 AM
I'm going to try my hand at describing a scene from Battlefield 3.

My team attacked a capture point and we had a lot of guys with guns. We were doing well until the opposing team brought a tank to reinforce the position. It killed a lot of us until our helicopter blew it up. After the opposing team lost their tank they couldn't stop us and we captured the point.

Now from Starcraft 2.

Player 1 spent all their money on weak soldiers and tried to kill player 2. While player 2 was building his economy. Player 2 predicted this and built a bunker which is really good at killing soldiers. Therefore all of player 1s' soldiers died when they attacked and he couldn't afford to buy anymore. Player 2 used his money to buy some soldiers and killed player 1 with them.

I picked a champ no one expects anything from. I saved up my assets until late in the game. I led my enemy into a trap. I won because of it.

Simple enough for you? I also have this book for you to read, its called See Spot Run.

sockeatsock
04-09-2012, 07:56 AM
I picked a champ no one expects anything from. I saved up my assets until late in the game. I led my enemy into a trap. I won because of it.

Simple enough for you? I also have this book for you to read, its called See Spot Run.

You are being seriously patronising. I had no idea from your initial story - this `See Spot Run' version cleared things up for me.

victory
04-09-2012, 11:42 AM
Now from Starcraft 2.

Player 1 spent all their money on weak soldiers and tried to kill player 2. While player 2 was building his economy. Player 2 predicted this and built a bunker which is really good at killing soldiers. Therefore all of player 1s' soldiers died when they attacked and he couldn't afford to buy anymore. Player 2 used his money to buy some soldiers and killed player 1 with them.To me this seems like an artificial example. Whom would you actually write this to? To demonstrate what?

For people who actually play the game, the above omits all the interesting info. I have no idea why that match was really lost or won. I would get much more out of the following description (which fits the same match):

Player 1 opened with a 5 rax rush against Player 2's 1rax CC fact. P1 quickly assumed map control, but P2 snuck an SCV into P1's natural and seeing no CC, started an extra bunker which finished just in time. P1 also poked out with an SCV to the nearest Xel'Naga, and seeing the marine count rallied there, immediately pulled half his SCVs. With good micro from both sides, P2 held barely, cut gas, and collected his win with a marine-hellion push after combat shield was done.

Could I write that out without the lingo? Yes, but it would take pages. The lingo is needed for people who actually play.

Nalano
04-09-2012, 12:55 PM
Oh, the epeen is out today!

/popcorn

AgamemnonV1
05-09-2012, 08:55 AM
I first thought this was a joke post but then I realized OP was serious. I've just been teleported back to 1998. I think I need to log into GameFAQs and argue with people on the Final Fantasy VII board about chocobo breeding.

Space Indaver
05-09-2012, 09:23 AM
I picked a champ no one expects anything from. I saved up my assets until late in the game. I led my enemy into a trap. I won because of it.

Simple enough for you? I also have this book for you to read, its called See Spot Run.
Sweetheart, the problem is your brain-fart writing style, alongside specialist terminology. Don't get cocky at people because they didn't understand your giddy rambling.

Grizzly
05-09-2012, 12:57 PM
To me this seems like an artificial example. Whom would you actually write this to? To demonstrate what?

For people who actually play the game, the above omits all the interesting info. I have no idea why that match was really lost or won. I would get much more out of the following description (which fits the same match):play.

Which is why SC2 has a replay feature.

As for your description, replace SCV with "Worker", Terms like Rax with "Barracks", Xel'Naga with "Observation Tower or Observation Post" (which is how they actually called in game anyway), Hellion with APC, you are able to create a much more understandable whilst short version of the story, without losing any of the details.


Player 1 opened with a 5 rax rush against Player 2's 1rax CC fact. P1 quickly assumed map control, but P2 snuck an SCV into P1's natural and seeing no CC, started an extra bunker which finished just in time. P1 also poked out with an SCV to the nearest Xel'Naga, and seeing the marine count rallied there, immediately pulled half his SCVs. With good micro from both sides, P2 held barely, cut gas, and collected his win with a marine-hellion push after combat shield was done.

Player 1 tried rushing player 2 by building 5 barracks, whilst player 2 expanded normally with a barracks, tank factory, and an additional resource gathering point. Player 1 quickly assumed map control, but player 2 managed to sneak a worker into player 1's base and saw that he had built no extra resource gathering points. Knowing that Player 1 would try to blitzkrieg player 2, player 2 built a bunker. Player 1 captured an observation post and saw that player 2 saw trough his plan. Player 1 tried to attack and destroy player 2 before he could finish his defenses, but he failed. Player 2 then finished his defenses and destroyed player 1 with a mix of soldiers and apcs.

See? Anyone with a basic understanding of history, geography, or strategy gaming would easily be able to see what everyone did, without sacrificing detail.

Nalano
05-09-2012, 01:27 PM
Player 1 tried rushing player 2 by building 5 barracks, whilst player 2 expanded normally with a barracks, tank factory, and an additional resource gathering point. Player 1 quickly assumed map control, but player 2 managed to sneak a worker into player 1's base and saw that he had built no extra resource gathering points. Knowing that Player 1 would try to blitzkrieg player 2, player 2 built a bunker. Player 1 captured an observation post and saw that player 2 saw trough his plan. Player 1 tried to attack and destroy player 2 before he could finish his defenses, but he failed. Player 2 then finished his defenses and destroyed player 1 with a mix of soldiers and apcs.

See? Anyone with a basic understanding of history, geography, or strategy gaming would easily be able to see what everyone did, without sacrificing detail.

But if you say it like that, you strip away all the needlessly arcane lingo that sets these 1337 playaz from the rest of humanity!

Once you make it accessible, they're no longer special! Anybody can do what they do! You can't take that away from them: These games are all they have!

prabu007
05-09-2012, 01:27 PM
LOL Lot of Laugh

Berzee
05-09-2012, 02:13 PM
Can we see our way to having a game whose specialist terminology is entirely in the style of Mr. Weller the Elder, from The Pickwick Papers?


If ever you gets to up'ards o' fifty, and feels disposed to go a-marryin' anybody—no matter who—jist you shut yourself up in your own room, if you've got one, and pison yourself off hand. Hangin's wulgar, so don't you have nothin' to say to that. Pison yourself, Samivel, my boy, pison yourself, and you'll be glad on it arterwards.

victory
05-09-2012, 03:28 PM
As for your description, replace SCV with "Worker", Terms like Rax with "Barracks", Xel'Naga with "Observation Tower or Observation Post" (which is how they actually called in game anyway), Hellion with APC, you are able to create a much more understandable whilst short version of the story, without losing any of the details.Fair enough for the other substitutions (though I note that every one of those slightly lengthens the description, and compactness is one of the valid reasons of using special lingo) but calling a hellion an APC is just confusing for everyone, player or non-player, since hellions do not look like APCs and do not carry troops. "Flamethrower buggy" would be descriptive to non-players and recognizable to players.

Player 1 tried rushing player 2 by building 5 barracks, whilst player 2 expanded normally with a barracks, tank factory, and an additional resource gathering point. Player 1 quickly assumed map control, but player 2 managed to sneak a worker into player 1's base and saw that he had built no extra resource gathering points. Knowing that Player 1 would try to blitzkrieg player 2, player 2 built a bunker. Player 1 captured an observation post and saw that player 2 saw trough his plan. Player 1 tried to attack and destroy player 2 before he could finish his defenses, but he failed. Player 2 then finished his defenses and destroyed player 1 with a mix of soldiers and apcs.

See? Anyone with a basic understanding of history, geography, or strategy gaming would easily be able to see what everyone did, without sacrificing detail.Sorry, I made a typo with the numbers. It is of course player 2 who pokes at the nearest observation tower (does not "capture it") and sees player 1's marines sitting there, then reacts by pulling half his workers to defend. The other way around is nonsensical in general, and would also contradict the previous statement that P1 assumes map control.

Your re-write isn't equivalent; it massively distorts the events and omits key detail. In my description, P2 manages to see P1's natural expansion area, not P1's base. At that point P2 does not know that P1 is rushing, only that a command center isn't planted at the expansion. Command centers are not just any "resource gathering point" - they fly. P1 could be doing pretty much any build, including one where he builds two extra command centers inside his main base. P2's decision to add an extra bunker immediately at that point is non-obvious. Only the follow-up poke towards the observation tower which reveals an unusually high amount of marines gives P2 a decent idea of what he's faced with. P1, being completely all-in, has to carry out his attack regardless of what he thinks P2 knows. Finally, the information that both players micro the final engagement well and P2 ends up barely holding is important, mainly because it validates P2's strategic decisions.

Is it possible to spell this stuff out in such a way that a person not familiar with the game can follow it? Sure. But if I'm addressing people who play the game, I would be stupid if I didn't use established vocabulary which can convey the same thing, more clearly, in tenth of the space.

Ravelle
05-09-2012, 07:18 PM
But if you say it like that, you strip away all the needlessly arcane lingo that sets these 1337 playaz from the rest of humanity!

Once you make it accessible, they're no longer special! Anybody can do what they do! You can't take that away from them: These games are all they have!

I have no idea what this man is saying.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW0faxxL4U4

Grizzly
05-09-2012, 08:21 PM
Fair enough for the other substitutions (though I note that every one of those slightly lengthens the description, and compactness is one of the valid reasons of using special lingo) but calling a hellion an APC is just confusing for everyone, player or non-player, since hellions do not look like APCs and do not carry troops. "Flamethrower buggy" would be descriptive to non-players and recognizable to players.
Sorry, I made a typo with the numbers. It is of course player 2 who pokes at the nearest observation tower (does not "capture it") and sees player 1's marines sitting there, then reacts by pulling half his workers to defend. The other way around is nonsensical in general, and would also contradict the previous statement that P1 assumes map control.

Your re-write isn't equivalent; it massively distorts the events and omits key detail. In my description, P2 manages to see P1's natural expansion area, not P1's base. At that point P2 does not know that P1 is rushing, only that a command center isn't planted at the expansion. Command centers are not just any "resource gathering point" - they fly. P1 could be doing pretty much any build, including one where he builds two extra command centers inside his main base. P2's decision to add an extra bunker immediately at that point is non-obvious. Only the follow-up poke towards the observation tower which reveals an unusually high amount of marines gives P2 a decent idea of what he's faced with. P1, being completely all-in, has to carry out his attack regardless of what he thinks P2 knows. Finally, the information that both players micro the final engagement well and P2 ends up barely holding is important, mainly because it validates P2's strategic decisions.

Is it possible to spell this stuff out in such a way that a person not familiar with the game can follow it? Sure. But if I'm addressing people who play the game, I would be stupid if I didn't use established vocabulary which can convey the same thing, more clearly, in tenth of the space.

To be fair to myself: Your typo made it rather hard for me to do some educated geusses to what you were saying, especially since I never play SC2 :P. (I am quite sure I would have gotten it right without the typo).

In fact...

Player 1 build 5 barracks to overwhelm player 2 with superiour numbers. Player 2 expanded normally with a barracks, tank factory, and another headquarters, focusing on resource gathering. Player 1 quickly assumed control over the map. Player 2 managed to sneak a worker to Player 1's area, and saw that he was not expanding his base to his closest resource-rich area. Suspecting a rush, he build a bunker. He then managed to sneak a worker towards an observation post, and saw that a lot of player 1 soldiers were gathering. He retreated half of his workers from their duties to focus on defending the base. After a tense battle, which had been micro-managed quite well by both sides, Player 2 managed to win, and finish his defenses. This gives him enough time to create an army of soldiers and assault buggys, whilst Player 1 was hamstrung by his poor resource-gathering capabilities. Player 2 destroys player 1 and wins.

But the major point is in your last sentence: The thing is that you are NOT adressing people who play the game. You are adressing the RPS readers.

victory
05-09-2012, 10:18 PM
But the major point is in your last sentence: The thing is that you are NOT adressing people who play the game. You are adressing the RPS readers.I am addressing RPS readers, but what I showed them was an example of pure inter-player SC2 lingo. By processing that to a semi-accurate, semi-complete Simple English version which tries to convey the same information, you have helped to demonstrate the value of the lingo, which was really the point of my posting it. Many of the terms used like "all-in" wrap large concepts rather than being simple word substitutions or abbreviations, which means they don't just make the text more compact, but help in higher level thinking. Then there's the compactness benefit. (Which, after seeing your effort, I realize I exaggerated. While the lingo is compact, it's not more compact by a factor of ten. 2-5x might be more accurate.)

TL;DR: Nalano is wrong; use of game- and genre-appropriate vocabulary when getting deeper into those games is a matter of common sense rather than e-peen enhancement.

Nalano
05-09-2012, 10:50 PM
I have no idea what this man is saying.

It's like sportscasting, except without the audience, accessibility or athletic ability!


TL;DR: Nalano is wrong; use of game- and genre-appropriate vocabulary when getting deeper into those games is a matter of common sense rather than e-peen enhancement.

If you can't describe something succinctly without resorting to arcane technical lingo, you suck at communication. This is fine; many otherwise intelligent people suck at communication. Do not, however, equate your ability to rapidly fire off technical terms as evidence of the complexity of the topic.

TLDR: Nalano is right, and the peevish insistence on using arcane, technical language as a means of purposefully alienating the readership is proof positive of e-peening.

MoLAoS
05-09-2012, 11:08 PM
Sweetheart, the problem is your brain-fart writing style, alongside specialist terminology. Don't get cocky at people because they didn't understand your giddy rambling.

My technical writing is perfectly fine. But this is a game forum, not a french lit symposium. I can understand posts written in the same style by other people about games I haven't played. Its not my fault you and about 90% of the people who replied are only capable of reading a few word structures and can't accurately interpret context clues.

Ravelle
05-09-2012, 11:29 PM
It's like sportscasting, except without the audience, accessibility or athletic ability!



If you can't describe something succinctly without resorting to arcane technical lingo, you suck at communication. This is fine; many otherwise intelligent people suck at communication. Do not, however, equate your ability to rapidly fire off technical terms as evidence of the complexity of the topic.

TLDR: Nalano is right, and the peevish insistence on using arcane, technical language as a means of purposefully alienating the readership is proof positive of e-peening.

I guess it depends on the people you're talking or writing too, really.
Molaos made the mistake by thinking 98% of RPS plays Moba games and understands the language, it's like trying to explain to my mother why I need certain computer upgrades. In the way it's been thought to me, like I talk when working as a System Manager. Of course she goes Whaaaa? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhwcAC_Apq0), I have to change it to the terms she understands. " My Computer will run games faster now than before, that's why I have to replace it." Instead of telling her about all the technicalities.

He should not have made a separate thread for it but instead posted it in the MOBA thread, where folks speak his HP Lovecraftian language of video games.

Berzee
05-09-2012, 11:31 PM
i open thread, read OP. skim the frags, parse the runs. raw #'s give no intel without max hp stats, still do my best, assume 3k. got a 50% gist, skip to bot, next post. 20 seconds tops, hecks yeah.

Berzee
05-09-2012, 11:42 PM
Nonetheless -- everyone uses lingo. Every time you (for example) call a monster a "mob" you're using a genre-specific term (it's spread somewhat from MMO's but I never heard it through years of reading about and playing games, until I played DAoC). This post was just particularly impenetrable and game-specific. =P

If the point of the OP is indeed that HoN is better because it's possible to do clever things that allow you to be competitive with unpopular characters, that's a pretty good point. I mean, I don't know if it's true for these games, having played LoL a couple of times and HoN not at all, so not knowing which one is better with respect to creative play styles -- but I do like games where you pull off funny crazy stunts with apparently-wimply weapons and characters.

Hillbert
06-09-2012, 02:26 AM
My technical writing is perfectly fine. But this is a game forum, not a french lit symposium. I can understand posts written in the same style by other people about games I haven't played. Its not my fault you and about 90% of the people who replied are only capable of reading a few word structures and can't accurately interpret context clues.

The problem is some of the words you were using are utterly without context. For example


dominate 4 vulture lords and 3 minotaurs and 1 wolf commander inside 20 minutes.

Is that difficult? Is it impressive? I have no context for it at all.

If I was to start talking about a particularly efficient SpaceChem solution to people who weren't familiar with it, then I would need to make sure everything had some sort of context. I wouldn't immediately leap in with an "asynchronous flip-flop hydrogen fusion cycle" and expect anyone to know what I was talking about.

Hypernetic
06-09-2012, 02:27 AM
Nonetheless -- everyone uses lingo. Every time you (for example) call a monster a "mob" you're using a genre-specific term (it's spread somewhat from MMO's but I never heard it through years of reading about and playing games, until I played DAoC). This post was just particularly impenetrable and game-specific. =P

If the point of the OP is indeed that HoN is better because it's possible to do clever things that allow you to be competitive with unpopular characters, that's a pretty good point. I mean, I don't know if it's true for these games, having played LoL a couple of times and HoN not at all, so not knowing which one is better with respect to creative play styles -- but I do like games where you pull off funny crazy stunts with apparently-wimply weapons and characters.


You can do the same shit in any MOBA.

Batolemaeus
06-09-2012, 06:34 AM
If the point of the OP is indeed that HoN is better because it's possible to do clever things that allow you to be competitive with unpopular characters, that's a pretty good point. I mean, I don't know if it's true for these games, having played LoL a couple of times and HoN not at all, so not knowing which one is better with respect to creative play styles -- but I do like games where you pull off funny crazy stunts with apparently-wimply weapons and characters.

And is probably 100% untrue, judging from other genres where fanboys ralley around their franchises. He couldn't express this without resorting to lingo, so he doesn't seem to be able to explain the concept even to an audience that is familiar with games in general, just not the specific game in question.

Also. Lingo is fine if everyone in the conversation is on the same page, but I certainly don't talk to my father about layer 2 or 3 problems when fixing his computer and I will stay the hell away from arcane lingo of our proprietary software when talking to anyone else. Context is important, and is another thing the OP completely fails at.

pmh
06-09-2012, 03:14 PM
And is probably 100% untrue, judging from other genres where fanboys ralley around their franchises. He couldn't express this without resorting to lingo, so he doesn't seem to be able to explain the concept even to an audience that is familiar with games in general, just not the specific game in question.

The OP's arguments could be more simply stated, but he seemed more interested in giving a play-by-play rather than just arguments that HoN is better than LoL. Anyone familiar with MOBAs (or are we using LPG now?) should be able to understand the post just fine bar a few things (like what "vulture lords" are, but that becomes clear in a later paragraph: it's a type of minion).

I think his argument boils down to the fact that HoN gives the player more control and freedom with a higher skill ceiling since even a rarely used hero can be completely competitive in a match, but I don't want to put words in the OP's mouth.


Also. Lingo is fine if everyone in the conversation is on the same page, but I certainly don't talk to my father about layer 2 or 3 problems when fixing his computer and I will stay the hell away from arcane lingo of our proprietary software when talking to anyone else. Context is important, and is another thing the OP completely fails at.

You probably would and should if you were comparing two different hardware/software solutions to roughly the same problem.

mickygor
06-09-2012, 06:56 PM
I guess it depends on the people you're talking or writing too, really.
Molaos made the mistake by thinking 98% of RPS plays Moba games and understands the language, it's like trying to explain to my mother why I need certain computer upgrades. In the way it's been thought to me, like I talk when working as a System Manager. Of course she goes Whaaaa? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhwcAC_Apq0), I have to change it to the terms she understands. " My Computer will run games faster now than before, that's why I have to replace it." Instead of telling her about all the technicalities.

The problem there of course being that you've lost the majority of information you would have conveyed if you used the technical terms.

Nalano
06-09-2012, 06:59 PM
The problem there of course being that you've lost the majority of information you would have conveyed if you used the technical terms.

Well, if you condescend by saying "my computar runs faster now, hurr," yes. Because you didn't explain anything.

Batolemaeus
06-09-2012, 07:35 PM
You probably would and should if you were comparing two different hardware/software solutions to roughly the same problem.

I can do, and have done, exactly that to laymen who were not familiar with the topic.

I can explain precisely why Dominion was a terrible expansion for Eve and harmed the game without mentioning a single in depth game concept or even the name of a single ship class. I can do this even with people who do not play games.

My job entails doing precisely this, too. Customers don't know what kind of hardware they need for a high throughput publishing solution, but still need to know their options..