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r3dknight
06-09-2012, 01:41 PM
Like 6 games and I only won once online.
I must've switched over 6 teams over the course of the game.
Despite understanding the basic rules of the game I seem to be stuck in a rut.

I need a TV1000 that doesn't seem so fragile that losing like 2-3 to injuries in the first half seems very unlikely.
Cause I really cannot be arsed to carry on playing when that happens in the first match. That's just my lazy nature. It ain't fun, and I'm probably wasting both my and the opponent's time prolonging it.

Also, tried dwarf. Gods they're so slow. I felt like I'm boring myself and my opponent when I play these guys. And when they're 2-0 behind, it's as good as 'Let's just bash and forget about scoring.'

The nuances of the game seems to be lost on me. Like, starting formations, kick direction. I hope I get it in the long run, but right now I'm just mucking about.
I understand how to get 2 die blocks but seem unable to plan 2-3 steps ahead. Stuff just happens as it goes along. The latest game won was against a Dark Elf team with no rerolls as Elf - I'm happy but I felt that my opponents is probably playing a badly designed team.

Still, should I carry on with my Elves?

2 TD scored. 10 conceded.
Awful, Just awful.

President Weasel
06-09-2012, 02:20 PM
Well, yes, because you're suddenly playing human beings and not the AI. Human beings are a lot sneakier than the AI, and capable of coming up with a lot more surprises. Plus, it's not a very good AI in the first place, even for a simple AI. It doesn't take advantage of the differences amongst the teams, and it doesn't watch the clock. So you're going to get beaten a lot starting out.

It's worth reading bbtactics.com to get a feel for things. Also there are simple things to keep in mind, like always try to leave a man or two back for cover rather than getting sucked towards the ball, and always do the moves first that don't require a dice roll, and count how far it is to the line so you can make sure your player can get there next turn. Nothing worse than realising you stopped one square too soon.

ChainsawHands
06-09-2012, 02:29 PM
First of all: don't give up! The first few matches can be tough. You might consider playing a bit of the single player: the AI is pretty terrible compared to a human player, but it gives you a starting point, and I think (haven't really played it myself) that the campaign mode is an OK introduction to various types of play.

Elfs are a good team, but they can be pretty fragile. For starting out I'd probably recommend orcs - they're strong, very tough and can even throw the ball a little bit if it comes to that.

As usual bbtactics.com (http://bbtactics.com/) has some good advice on starting rosters - I'd recommend the first one from here (http://bbtactics.com/tv1000-orc-starting-roster/) but the others are fine too.

For starting position, I'd say go for something like this (http://www.play-creator.com/viewplay.asp?viewplay=10684) - left for receiving, right for kicking. Depending on your roster the players might be a bit different, and there's an argument for putting your linemen on the front when kicking so your black orcs don't get hit, but the basic position's fairly sound. A few things to think about are: will your opponent have to make a dodge / blitz one of your players out the way to get into your half, have you left anyone in position to be pushed into the crowd with frenzy, do you have enough movement to get to the ball when it lands...

For kicking, I'd pick up the kick skill on your first lineman to get a level, and until then just aim for the middle of the pitch to minimise the chances it'll go out of bounds and let your opponent give it to one of his players.

If you're not familiar with the concepts it'd probably be a good idea to read up on cages (http://bbtactics.com/cage-basics/) and the 2-1 grind (http://bbtactics.com/2-1-grind/) as these are two tactics orcs will use a lot.

There's also an RPS challenge league (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?147-RPS-Blood-Bowl-Challenge-League) where I understand there are some friendly types who'd probably be willing to give you some pointers while you play.

NieA7
06-09-2012, 07:58 PM
As Pres and totally chainsawhands and not the other one said (especially the bits about bbtactics.com (http://www.bbtactics.com), really fantastic site). Elves are surprisingly difficult to coach, for my money the best starting teams (in order) are:

Orc, who come with most the basic stuff and are cheap, strong and survivable
Dwarf, as above only very slow, who will teach you everything you need to know about moving and blocking but can be quite dull to play
Undead, who are like the Orcs but with more flare and less starting skills
Human (for a real baptism of fire), who can do a bit of everything but not really very well

ChainsawHands
06-09-2012, 09:54 PM
As Pres and Groovy said*sigh*

I'm the other chainsaw...

NieA7
06-09-2012, 10:03 PM
*sigh*

I'm the other chainsaw...

Don't know what you mean *innocent*

r3dknight
07-09-2012, 03:33 AM
i think i'll grind some more with humans.
Kinda ok with 4 blitzers team at the moment.
My Blitzer leveled up, I gave him Dodge so I could peel off easier from marking.
Hopefully I made the right decision. Will play again tonight.

Heliocentric
07-09-2012, 09:02 AM
Do what I did, while you learn to play foul like a fiend and count all retired/killed players as moral victories.

Alistair Hutton
07-09-2012, 09:03 AM
i think i'll grind some more with humans.
Kinda ok with 4 blitzers team at the moment.
My Blitzer leveled up, I gave him Dodge so I could peel off easier from marking.
Hopefully I made the right decision. Will play again tonight.

Just to note, Humans are a difficult team to play well. It takes a player of some sophistication, skill and, dare I say it, ruggedly handsome good looks to get the most out of them. Especially starting out.

They don't have the bashing capability of the heavier teams and they most certainly don't have the agility of the lighter teams. Of the top tier teams (there is an explicit 3 tier ranking system) they are the statistically weakest in terms of win percentage. So just understand that it is a slight handicap to take them.

Dodge was a good pick on your Blitzer, but on regular skill rolls you want to be looking for Guard. Guard is the great equaliser in the bashing game as bashier sides (ie teams with regular ST4 players) will be looking for killer skills to go with their natural strength and tend to neglect the support play.

Catchers are very bad players - grossly overpriced by any metric you want to use, but they have got Move 8 which makes them helluva fast and that can often take opponents by surprise, charging into their backfield to harass the ball carrier.

you've got to float like a butterfly against bashier sides, standing off - on defense don't engage until they make a mistake - whilst attacking don't cage as you'll get bogged down, use a mobile screen move your slower opponent around the and then punch a hole to flood through once you've drawn him thin or he's over committed to one side. Against agility sides you've got to sting like a bee - cage up on offence and get in their faces on defence, but leave a mobile player or 2 unengaged so you can deal with any attempts to run players into your backfield.

r3dknight
07-09-2012, 09:32 AM
You're right I should give up now. :S we'll see how this goes on the next few matches. I have a good feeling about these dudes cause it's the first team I individually named each players.

Heliocentric
07-09-2012, 09:47 AM
it's the first team I individually named each players.

That's a double edged blade. But auto name is the killer of legacy, assigning names or a theme is an important part of the process of setting playing blood bowl .

Squiz
07-09-2012, 12:29 PM
Individually - or even better punny - named players perform better on the pitch. It's a fact.

Everblue
07-09-2012, 12:39 PM
I don't know - The Dessert Spoons have been doing pretty badly in the Open.

The Cooking Funt did level up yesterday, but no such luck for Bat Fastard or Uck Fugly.

President Weasel
07-09-2012, 03:26 PM
I named my four Chaos Warriors in the Divisions of Death Tank, Hammer, War Face*, and Professor Brian Cox
Professor Brian Cox proceeded to get +str and +mov in his first two skillups, and far outstrip the other chaos warriors. Comedy names work.



*(before the game - I believe they may in fact have named the game after my player)

r3dknight
08-09-2012, 05:43 PM
damn rats. I got one blitzer crowd surfed and got perma 1 AV loss in a hard fought 1-1 draw.
That and a missing lineman for the next match. I decided to buy a catcher to have some speed in that game.
I really hope the rematch is kinder. I'm surprised I didn't kill a single rat in that game, at turn 14 I bashed like half of his team to the injury box and they still survived without perma-damage.

Otherwise Sol Badguy the Ogre gets Guard while a lineman gains Kick. We're ready to rock.

Heliocentric
08-09-2012, 06:32 PM
I heard a rumour that if a skaven player gets enough -AV the value rolls over and he goes back to being useful.

Word on the street.

r3dknight
10-09-2012, 02:26 AM
lost the rematch 2-1
i think i was too tired off work and let him in with a TD on turn 3.
sunday shifts does that to you.
and the ogre failed his stupid rolls during the first half, can't remember what he did at all.

it ended 2-0 half time and i was considering bashing and just forgetting about winning.
except turn 12 we wiped a quarter of their team and my blitzer scored a touchdown for his 16th SPP.

2-1, really wanted to equalize, then the weather changed to rain and pickups are hard with our thrower injured and out of the game (he was out on turn 5) when the lineman failed to pick up the ball after a successful blitz on turn 14, victory is nigh impossible.

we started bashing every single one of them. they ended the game with like 7 rats to our 10.
I really felt disappointed with the early TD conceded, but I guess the second half cheered me up a bit since i scored a niggling injury on one of them with 2 KO and 3 Badly Hurt.

I really wanted to kill that Gutter Runner with 2 heads.
As in slice it and cook it and feed it to cats.

Otherwise, it was ... ok I guess. We've 6 Blockers now with the 2 promoted linesmen.
And the two injured players are back in training. TV feels bloated at 1370, but we'll see what happens.

Heliocentric
10-09-2012, 04:03 AM
Friends do not let friends coach bloodbowl tired.

It's the greatest fail magnet of all. My advice for pitch control? Once you outnumber your opponent make a point of fouling, especially any opponent that would only allow you your blitz block, if you get 3 assists on AV7 your odds of eviction are similar to their chances of being fouled off the pitch.

You might ask what is the point? But 11 vs 8 is not as much of an advantage as 6 vs 3. Yes the difference is 3 but the impact on the pitch is epic. Fouling can help turn a favourable drive into a landslide.

r3dknight
10-09-2012, 06:37 AM
I'm starting to have second thoughts on this AG3 team though.
Dark Elf seem to be awesome on paper, minus the high price at the start however.
Will ponder upon this some more.

Heliocentric
10-09-2012, 10:00 AM
Ag3 really lies in an ugly place, ag2(skeletons, dwarfs), you don't really try the following dodge, nor ag1(tomb guardian#, saurus'). But Ag3 teases a 66.6% dodge rate, 88.8% with a rerolls, only marginally more than 50% and 75% a zombie can manage.

But there is one ace in the hole all Ag3 players have, they are only one +AG from greatness. AG4 is only needed in slim supply for a huge effect. A single AG4 catcher, thrower or runner will end up being the core of every game plan(unless it's a rotter or snotling then you just expect death). DElves are a great team though. Just ignore assassins, they are pointless until you are trying to ag5 leap stab into guard cages.

President Weasel
10-09-2012, 10:44 AM
It's not the team, it's you. If you're playing in a public league you're playing against people who have been playing this game for a couple of years, and you've only got a handful of matches in. It takes a while to get the hang of - it took me a surprising number of games just to grasp the intricacies of how assists work.

Screwie
10-09-2012, 11:04 AM
That might be a good topic to discuss actually - which is the best team to use in order to learn about...
...assists?
...dodging?
...passing?
...block statistics?
...Stunty?

sketchseven
10-09-2012, 11:51 AM
There's always going to be a big jump between playing against the AI and playing against human opponents; so yes, you are giving up too easily. I think taking casualties is one of those really hard to accept things in Blood Bowl because you get so attached to your skilled-up players over the course of a league.

There are loads of things that I'm still working out about this game and I consider myself to be the quite the noob - and I've played a couple of seasons in DoD now. Still a noob. So just keep going, keep playing, and play matches through to the death.

Heliocentric
10-09-2012, 11:55 AM
That might be a good topic to discuss actually - which is the best team to learn about...
...assists?
...dodging?
...passing?
...block statistics?
...Stunty?The best team to learn about fouling is anything with corpses,
Necro, Khemri, Undead additionally Nurgle Why because people don't bitch quite so loudly about you profitlessly when its not actually profitless. Thing is, people want non of their players to ever die, and have 5 st and 5 agility each. Yep.

ChainsawHands
10-09-2012, 12:46 PM
Do what I did, while you learn to play foul like a fiend and count all retired/killed players as moral victories.It's probably worth pointing out that this is quite poor advice: fouling just isn't an effective tactic.

I'm not saying never do it - if a MV10 gutter runner falls over trying for a 1 turn touchdown then by all means jump on him with your whole team. But in general it comes with a high risk of getting your own player sent off, and if you commit enough players to get assists on it to move the odds in your favour then you've left yourself out of position, and that just leads to giving away TDs.

Heliocentric
10-09-2012, 01:12 PM
It's probably worth pointing out that this is quite poor advice: fouling just isn't an effective tactic.

I'm not saying never do it - if a MV10 gutter runner falls over trying for a 1 turn touchdown then by all means jump on him with your whole team. But in general it comes with a high risk of getting your own player sent off, and if you commit enough players to get assists on it to move the odds in your favour then you've left yourself out of position, and that just leads to giving away TDs.Its true, efficient play means barely ever fouling, but I wasn't suggesting efficient play, I was suggesting a psycological crutch.

President Weasel
10-09-2012, 03:23 PM
That might be a good topic to discuss actually - which is the best team to use in order to learn about...
...assists? Orcs. Lots of ST3 and lots of guard access/
...dodging? Not orcs. An ag4 team or amazons, amazons might be best, because while Ag4 will teach you about not trying to dodge into a tackle zone, amazons will teach you that plus watching out for opponents with tackle.
...passing? Screw it: Orcs. Learn that passing is for rare occasions and that you should mostly cage! Apart from that, Skaven or some kind of elves.
...block statistics? You mean the relative chances of success with one dice with block versus 2 dice with no block, that sort of thing? Orcs! They block a lot and some of them start without block. A couple of turnovers from the troll lonering a reroll of both down/skull will teach you about block statistics
...Stunty? Lizards will teach you everything you need to know about stunty: that it can be insanely useful as your little men scamper through tackle zones as though they weren't there (because effectively they're not) and that it can be heartbreaking, as your little men mess up a three-square pass, and then someone blitzes your star skink and he snaps in two places.

Lizards will not teach you about passing.

Alistair Hutton
10-09-2012, 04:02 PM
I'm starting to have second thoughts on this AG3 team though.
Dark Elf seem to be awesome on paper, minus the high price at the start however.
Will ponder upon this some more.

If you've tried human and want to go AG4 then High Elf is the clear choice. Their rosters are right next to each other in the rule book and the High Elf roster makes the human roster look like the piece of shit it is.

Alistair Hutton
10-09-2012, 04:07 PM
To learn about the importance of positional play and assists you need to play as Dwarves. Dwarfs (see what I did there?) do not have the crutch of ST4 players that Orcs get to rely on. Nor do they have the raw natural speed of Orcs (See what I did there too?). Playing against Dwarves also works as long as they are competently coached. Every single action and moment that a Dwarf does is crucial to the success of the team but no team benefits so much form the whole side working in concert, no side is more punished by a lack of coherence that evil little Dwarfses.

ChainsawHands
10-09-2012, 04:14 PM
...the High Elf roster makes the human roster look like the piece of shit it is.It's funny because it's true.

Zoraster
10-09-2012, 04:50 PM
We have found by far the best way to teach BB positional play is by teaching Go, especially with younger coaches. Even without a teacher I imagine you would get most of the benefit. Besides Go is a great game anyway so no downside to experimenting :)

Everblue
10-09-2012, 05:05 PM
Can you foul in Go?

Heliocentric
10-09-2012, 05:09 PM
It's funny because it's true.
Speed.

There are only 3 types of MV8 players in the game with ST3, High elf catchers, Pro elf catchers and necromantic werewolves. (is that right?) consider that +MV is trice as common as +ST. But I the ST2 MV8 skins can literally make up the entire team.

On the flip side consider dwarves, chaos warriors, skeletons and other mv4 players from cheap and pitiful skeletons to menacing.

Getting your mv 4 players to influence the behaviour of your opponents MV8 and higher players is a constant conflict.
Do you from a dense field of tackle zones? Play a deep defence or try and tie the fast gits up while your slowbies catch up.

Alistair Hutton
10-09-2012, 05:10 PM
Can you foul in Go?

I like to think when I surround an opponents stone my stones are kicking him to death.

Everblue
11-09-2012, 10:02 AM
There are some useful pointers here

http://bbtactics.com/forums/blood-bowl-101-sceadeaus-risk-management-strategy-scrims-t636/

r3dknight
11-09-2012, 05:39 PM
Nice game tonight against Nords. My god, the amount of blockers on that team...

He scored first 1-0
I was unwilling to risk 1 die blocks to stop that one. But was happy when I killed his berserker with a block. The enemy coach do the apoth roll and brought him back to life. But still, nice SPP.

But that wasn't the end. When my best blitzer stomped the SAME berserker and we KILLED HIM. AGAIN, he doesnt have an apoth to save him. The chat was full of rage and I was laughing hysterically. Moral victory man. SO SWEET. That's when I decided I would bash these guys out of the game. It's the only way to win.

Angry, he decided to use werewolf to foul my downed thrower. Which got it sent off. Lmao.
I was playing bashing game up till turn 8 when I did something really stupid.

I surrounded his lineman with EIGHT players and my catcher was one square away from TD.
Ogre block the lineman hoping for injury blow - but got bonehead on a 3-die block. I got greedy since I haven't used my roll at that point.. and rerolled anyway. Only to be rewarded by a lousy skull - both downs - and a push.

No worries. I push the dude...and sent a blitzer on a 2 die blitz block. That'll do a nice injury roll! Ha! Then to score a - except a 2 skull popped out. /facepalm.

Half ended 1-0 to the Nords and I was like...what the fuck was I thinking. Am I playing to win or to bash? I knuckled down and decide to stick to bashing, and clinch the equalizer. Seize the moral victory. The lesser player he has, the better my chances of scoring. And those wolves will be easier to block since his Ag2 is shit for dodging.

Second half starts, more hilarity ensues as I injured like 2 more players. And he badly hurt my only thrower and knocked out 2 more. But I was feeling confident, with reserves I have player advantage. I just have to keep grinding him - and... yeah! TD at Turn 12!

1-1!

When I saw my knocked down players coming back from the pen, I grinned. This is it. Time to finish this. A little bash here and a little bash there, he can't mount an effective cage on his drive. I grind his players down to 6 on the field. I have 8 when the ball dropped. I think he admitted that he's going to delete his team after this match.

'But what if you win' I asked in chat.

No response. I punched another and got him down to 5 men. Moral victory.
Linesman on the ball. Blitzer pushes an annoying blocker off him. Rush down to the TD line on Turn 16.

2-1!

When his turn to drive starts, he just ends it right there straight away.

:( I hope I don't play against Nords again so soon. Those bastards are nasty.

El Cubo
12-09-2012, 07:07 AM
Sounds like it was a cathartic match.

20phoenix
12-09-2012, 02:55 PM
Assists: Dwarves for the reasons Alistair mentioned. The strength of a dwarf team is linked to how close they are to each other on the field. Spread them out and they're easy to pick apart. Allow them to group up and they'll rollover you

Dodging: I'd actually say humans would be the best there or any AG3 side that don't have dodge rerolls out of the box. You learn better when to dodge when you dont have a safety net of AG4 or a dodge reroll than if the reverse were true.

Passing: High Elves. When you play a team that is almost utterly reliant on passing the ball (no easy strength access so will get overpowered easily caging) you learn a lot of the key elements to a passing game - freeing up catchers, relays, screening etc

Block statistics: Skaven. Nothing helped me understand the vagaries of blocking matchup probabilities better than blitzing ball carriers with gutter runners. Gutter runner squads will almost always have the key ingredients to blocking - block, wrestle, tackle, strip ball, dauntless, horns etc all of which change the probabilities of a successful block/loose ball.

Stunty: Lizards are the most forgiving of stunty teams due to the protection they are afforded by the saurii and Krox. For an out and out stunty experience try Halflings. Actually a very effective race to play and probably the only out and out stunty team that is capable of being competitive in MM

Everblue
12-09-2012, 03:07 PM
For an out and out stunty experience try Halflings. Actually a very effective race to play and probably the only out and out stunty team that is capable of being competitive in MM

Not sure about in MM as I like to have a TV difference of -700 to be competitive, but you wait until we meet in the Open...

20phoenix
12-09-2012, 04:38 PM
Not sure about in MM as I like to have a TV difference of -700 to be competitive, but you wait until we meet in the Open...

They are viable - essentially you run with a packed bench and foul the bejesus out of anything in sight. A +AG fling helps in this respect as you've got a reasonable shot at a TTM regardless of how the opponents drive goes. This means I tend to ignore stopping him from scoring on his drive and concentrate on removing players.

r3dknight
13-09-2012, 02:24 AM
They are viable - essentially you run with a packed bench and foul the bejesus out of anything in sight. A +AG fling helps in this respect as you've got a reasonable shot at a TTM regardless of how the opponents drive goes. This means I tend to ignore stopping him from scoring on his drive and concentrate on removing players.

Sounds like a crazy gambit. But isn't goblin the master of fouling with their secret weapons and such?

The Brain
13-09-2012, 09:19 AM
The key to fouling is having lots of disposable players who are cheaper than the player you are giving the boot to. They don't come much cheaper or more disposable than flings. Maybe Snots.

Screwie
13-09-2012, 10:03 AM
Yep, although flings are arguably even more disposable than snots as there will be more of them on the roster. That's the problem with goblins, the secret weapons are going to be sent off anyway so if you invest in those, you can't afford to foul often.

Where goblins do (sort of) excel in the fouling stakes, are the free pseudo-fouls you can get when a fanatic or a bomb throw hits a prone player.

20phoenix
13-09-2012, 01:26 PM
Yep, although flings are arguably even more disposable than snots as there will be more of them on the roster. That's the problem with goblins, the secret weapons are going to be sent off anyway so if you invest in those, you can't afford to foul often.

Where goblins do (sort of) excel in the fouling stakes, are the free pseudo-fouls you can get when a fanatic or a bomb throw hits a prone player.

Screwie's hit the nail on the head there. The problem with gobbos in a MM environment is after one drive each you've lost your secret weapons which means you have an effective roster of 13 - 11 40k players. With flings you can start every game with 14 30k players which makes fouling a breeze.

sketchseven
13-09-2012, 04:03 PM
I like the strategic foul to encourage particular behaviour - such as forcing an opponent to score early to save an isolated positional player that I am merrily gang-fouling each turn, rather than running the clock down to prevent the equaliser/game-winning possibilty.

r3dknight
14-09-2012, 03:09 AM
The dice can also turn against you as well. I really hate fighting the amazons now. AV7 yes, but these girls have Block/Dodge and it's really hard to knock over. Losing 2 of my blitzers to injuries didn't help either. Lost 1-0 due to lack of firepower. I think I should fill my roster up to 16 asap to get the max foul assists running per drive.

Everblue
14-09-2012, 10:35 AM
There are some good tips here.

http://fumbbl.com/help:The+Taoch!+of+Blood+Bowl%3A+A+Condensed+Guide +for+Newbies

Especially the last line.

El Cubo
14-09-2012, 11:22 AM
There are some good tips here.

http://fumbbl.com/help:The+Taoch!+of+Blood+Bowl%3A+A+Condensed+Guide +for+Newbies

Especially the last line.

Amen to that?

Everblue
14-09-2012, 11:27 AM
Oh bugger off you pedant!

I meant "...you know, if the worst thing that happens to you is you roll a bunch of 1s and your computer pixels die, then you should consider it a damn good day."