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Skull
10-09-2012, 07:55 PM
I got home from work today and was catching up with what I missed on RPS when my eyes fell upon this picture:


http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/images/2012/09/blackmesa7.jpg

I don't often get feelings of nostalgia but man, that is the best image I have ever seen in any gaming related form. Back when I played the original Half Life in the late 90's, I was so used to FPS dragging me through tunnels and corridors that when I reached that part in HL, it was a revelation for me. Blue sky, the river at the bottom of the valley realistic desert setting; it was the perfect contrast to the gloomy inside bits. I just wanted to explore it Elder Scroll style, not go back to the labs.

Unfortunately, after a fight with a helicopter on the same cliff face, I was forced back inside, which was understandable considering technology at the time and the linear story Valve wanted to tell. But that part has remained my favorite bit out of all the Half Life games and certainly my fondest memories of the 90s era shooter.

Up until now I hadn't really bothered reading much into the Black Mesa project, it looked interesting and I appreciated these guys were making it with the plan to give it out for free, but I'm no graphics whore, a game has to offer me something new before I will put it on my play pile. I've never been swayed by seeing a games screenshots either, but this looks great and I wish to project my enthusiasm for this project. I hope so bad that these guys end up working for Valve or whatever they choose to do in the gaming industry as this is fantastic.

(I bet I have said all this and then it turns out the gameplay/combat is absolute crap but all well, I'd still play it up to that point).

Flint
10-09-2012, 08:20 PM
Just replayed that part last night in the original. Still as great as ever, even after the billionth time. One of my favourite parts of the whole game. Really excited to see how it's like in Black Mesa.

(and I especially love trying to trick that sneaky headcrab at the end of the whole thing to jump off the cliff)

coldvvvave
10-09-2012, 08:50 PM
Yeah, I remember that part, though it didn't leave a lasting impression( like fighting The Tentacle and then descending into the pit). On the other hand I don't understand why everyone hated Waste Processing. Sure it wasn't the best level, far less good than Blast Pit or On a Rail, but damn, I enjoyed it, even the jump puzzles.

DaftPunk
10-09-2012, 08:58 PM
It would be funny if tomorrow they say that there was a mistake,mod will release in october haha :D

Skull
10-09-2012, 08:59 PM
On the other hand I don't understand why everyone hated Waste Processing. Sure it wasn't the best level, far less good than Blast Pit or On a Rail, but damn, I enjoyed it, even the jump puzzles.

Yeah, I loved it how their was no enemies for that entire level, it felt like such a comeback after that near death experience!


(and I especially love trying to trick that sneaky headcrab at the end of the whole thing to jump off the cliff)
HAHA ahh yeah, you and me both, I would reload if I couldn't manage it. I hope they haven't taken that part out in the mod

Koobazaur
10-09-2012, 10:36 PM
Aye, the gameplay feels a bit 'dated' nowadays especially since I am a a fan of more realistic/cover/leaning/ironsighty FPS combat, but it can't be denied it was revolutionary in its time. I think the mod might have had more success if it was released in they hay day of HL2 mod scene, but who knows - I think the long delay, much like DNF or even HL2, may very well end up serving as a marvelou hype machine for the devs!

gundato
10-09-2012, 10:40 PM
I'll be honest, I always preferred Blue Shift in terms of narrative and OpFor in terms of gameplay. Yes, I am a bad person.

And honestly, I'll believe this when I see it. But I do expect Steam to collapse for the umpteenth time on Friday either way, so that should be good for a laugh or two. And I'll try this eventually.

Oak
10-09-2012, 11:07 PM
That part stuck with me, too. I loved how in a single moment it managed to convey that you're in an incredibly precarious position, in the absolute middle of nowhere, isolated from any living thing that doesn't want to kill you, and that the situation has gotten so serious that fighter jets are being called in.

soldant
11-09-2012, 12:02 AM
On the other hand I don't understand why everyone hated Waste Processing. Sure it wasn't the best level, far less good than Blast Pit or On a Rail, but damn, I enjoyed it, even the jump puzzles.
I hated On a Rail, got so sick of riding a train, getting of the train to do something silly like flip a switch, getting back on it, blah blah blah. Waste Processing was fun and helped with the pacing.


I'll be honest, I always preferred Blue Shift in terms of narrative and OpFor in terms of gameplay. Yes, I am a bad person.
That's a fair point actually. Half Life's narrative isn't exceptionally strong in retrospect. For its time it might have been because it had a lot of scripted sequences, but really the story boils down to "Aliens attack, try to stop them, play some jumping puzzles in Xen, fight a giant foetus, deus ex machina ending." Blue Shift's gameplay wasn't that good but it did put more emphasis on the characters.

OpFor was fun though, my favourite of the lot. I always wanted to play as a HECU Marine!

Koobazaur
11-09-2012, 01:44 AM
Well, HL narrative was touted not so much for the story but story telling. Little bits and pieces here and there, NPCs that give clues, soldiers that chatter to each other etc. The big thing was putting the player IN the world and letting him figure it out, rather than spoon-feeding a story via the manual, text dumps, or not even having a story at all.

Just compare HL and Doom, fundamentally the same concept (aliens attack, you must stop them), but narratively very different. Of course, today it seems lacking, but at the time it was quite... fresh.

soldant
11-09-2012, 02:40 AM
Oh I agree in that respect, I mean I hated how Morrowind basically gave you a wall of text if you so much as asked the time. But it only really works in HL because the story is so simple and the player's character can't know much of what's going on. It falls down in the HL2 arc though because everyone talks to Gordon as if he knows everything that's happened... only to then go off and half-explain something or reference something else in passing as if Gordon doesn't know everything.

It's becoming a plot device - pretend the player already knows something to avoid giving an answer. And it's causing the story to turn into a rambling mess of questions like LOST.

BobbyFizz
11-09-2012, 02:50 AM
... like L*ST.

Fixed that, could you watch your language please.

gundato
11-09-2012, 03:12 AM
Half-Life is an example of the kind of game that was (arguably) revolutionary for its time, but that has aged really poorly in general. In large part, BECAUSE it set the pattern for all the games that followed. I didn't play HL until it was a year or two old, so that is probably why it was "good, but nothing amazing" to me.

I personally think Deus Ex is another great example. It definitely contributed a LOT to the genre (pretty much every "guns with words" game owes it to DX, and so do a lot of modern RPGs). But going back, it is clunky and nowhere near as "open" as we remember it to be (you can enter through the front door OR take the vent next to the front door! :p). Admittedly, that one ages better since it was always story first, gameplay second.

Mohorovicic
11-09-2012, 06:42 AM
And here's gundato with news of the day.

Anything else we do or don't remember you want to inform us about?

soldant
11-09-2012, 07:04 AM
And here's gundato with news of the day.

Anything else we do or don't remember you want to inform us about?
Discussion: Not on RPS!

No but seriously you want to attack him for posting an opinion? Isn't this the point of a forum?

Mohorovicic
11-09-2012, 07:25 AM
What does posting opinions have to do with discussion?

Anyway... no, I want to attack him for using "we" where he should have used "I".

Nalano
11-09-2012, 07:27 AM
Half-Life is an example of the kind of game that was (arguably) revolutionary for its time, but that has aged really poorly in general. In large part, BECAUSE it set the pattern for all the games that followed. I didn't play HL until it was a year or two old, so that is probably why it was "good, but nothing amazing" to me.

There's a trope for that (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeinfeldIsUnfunny).


No but seriously you want to attack him for posting an opinion? Isn't this the point of a forum?

It's the sheer verbosity of 'em. I mean, it's not Wulf-level walls of text, but it's pretty damn consistent.

gundato
11-09-2012, 01:45 PM
It's the sheer verbosity of 'em. I mean, it's not Wulf-level walls of text, but it's pretty damn consistent.

Apologies Nally, I forgot to take your reading comprehension issues into account. I'll try and restrict them to one or two words in the future :p.
In all seriousness. I am a verbose person because I like to try and express myself clearly. But if you think two paragraphs is a wall of text... well, I now understand that the public schooling system has failed you.

Also: Dude, Seinfeld is still awesome and hilarious. But yeah, I've seen that page before.

To everyone else in the thread: I apologize if, by expressing my opinion and trying to contribute to the discussion I derailed the thread by giving my fan club an excuse to swoop in and make attacks.

Kadayi
11-09-2012, 01:59 PM
And here's gundato with news of the day.

Anything else we do or don't remember you want to inform us about?

How about you familiarize yourself with these: -

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?104-The-Rules

BillButNotBen
11-09-2012, 02:26 PM
I ahve no free time, and a large pile of unplayed games, and i never replay games... but i'm really tempted to try and replay this just to see how the gameplay holds up today.

As someone who hates realistic cover based slow walking linear iron-sight using FPS games it sounds rather appealing. It'd be nice to have an FPS that has puzzles and jumping puzzles again too. (and it might be long enough ago that i don't remember the puzzles either).

DaftPunk
11-09-2012, 02:28 PM
So,when is this going to be downloadable today ??

Flint
11-09-2012, 02:33 PM
So,when is this going to be downloadable today ??
Today isn't the 14th.

DaftPunk
11-09-2012, 02:35 PM
Today isn't the 14th.



Ouch,i made plans for Black Mesa tonight,it was going to be a romantic date..damn you black mesa..damn you.

gundato
11-09-2012, 02:38 PM
Don't worry. You'll know Black Mesa comes out when the Steam content servers explode because everyone is downloading HL2 and HL:Source and whatever other dependencies there are :p

Flint
11-09-2012, 02:45 PM
Don't worry. You'll know Black Mesa comes out when the Steam content servers explode because everyone is downloading HL2 and HL:Source and whatever other dependencies there are :p
According to the launch details (http://forums.blackmesasource.com/showthread.php?t=12295) the only thing you really need is the Source SDK Base 2007. Although I have downloaded HL2 as well just in case.

Based on the counter on the Black Mesa front page, the UK launch time will be 15:47 (ie 8:47 in New Mexico - the time when HL1 begins in the location the game is set in).

Smashbox
11-09-2012, 02:58 PM
... because everyone is downloading HL2

People uninstall HL2?

DaftPunk
11-09-2012, 03:27 PM
People uninstall HL2?


Yeah,its waste of space :D

fiddlesticks
11-09-2012, 05:29 PM
I weep for a world where gundato's posts are considered overly verbose.

I am, however, very much looking forward to a world where Black Mesa is playable. I've been following the mod's development since 2008 and its imminent release is the best gaming related news I've heard all year. There go my plans for the weekend.

Also, I feel I should make a joke about Episode 3 now, but I can't think of a clever one.

Nalano
11-09-2012, 05:34 PM
In all seriousness. I am a verbose person because I like to try and express myself clearly.

I consider you verbose because you do the exact opposite. I like concise statements. I believe you are singularly incapable of making them.

This isn't an indictment of your opinions, or of you as a person. It's just hard to bring myself to read your posts - they just drag​...

gundato
11-09-2012, 05:37 PM
I am interested in what liberties they took with level re-designs. I vaguely recall reading that they did a lot to tweak the layout of some levels (to the point that it is almost a re-imagining at points). If they change too much, they'll get blasted for being "unfaithful". If they change too little, people will rightfully say "It took you that long to re-create the layout?"


I consider you verbose because you do the exact opposite. I like concise statements. I believe you are singularly incapable of making them.

This isn't an indictment of your opinions, or of you as a person. It's just hard to bring myself to read your posts - they just drag​...
Fair enough.

You know what else "drags'? People who come into a thread just to pick a fight with other people. Thus, if you refuse to read my posts I suggest not commenting or even posting in regard to me. I suspect that will make EVERYONE happier. And it will avoid forcing you to read more than a two word sentence.

Nalano
11-09-2012, 05:48 PM
Fair enough.

You know what else "drags'? People who come into a thread just to pick a fight with other people. Thus, if you refuse to read my posts I suggest not commenting or even posting in regard to me. I suspect that will make EVERYONE happier. And it will avoid forcing you to read more than a two word sentence.

Nah. I'm not the sorta dude to keep ignore lists. And you're free to dislike me. My original point in this thread was just pointing out that there's a trope for why HL wouldn't have aged well.

Personally, I think it'd be a hard decision to faithfully recreate things like level design (cough cough jump puzzles) or have artistic liberty in reproduction. It'd probably be best to just have it as historical record and do something new with all your time and effort.

c-Row
11-09-2012, 05:50 PM
Personally, I think it'd be a hard decision to faithfully recreate things like level design (cough cough jump puzzles) or have artistic liberty in reproduction. It'd probably be best to just have it as historical record and do something new with all your time and effort.

You can't beat free advertising, though. A well-done original mod probably would have never gotten the media coverage BM:S gets, so it's the perfect poster child for the people involved.

gundato
11-09-2012, 05:53 PM
Nah. I'm not the sorta dude to keep ignore lists. And you're free to dislike me. My original point in this thread was just pointing out that there's a trope for why HL wouldn't have aged well.
And that was a contribution to the thread. Good on you. The other crap about me being "too verbose" for you is not.

I dislike you because you treat people like garbage, but I don't mind discussing stuff with you. When you actually are discussing stuff and not just picking fights. So as long as you avoid doing the latter, I see no real issues. And, like I said, everyone will be much happier.


Personally, I think it'd be a hard decision to faithfully recreate things like level design (cough cough jump puzzles) or have artistic liberty in reproduction. It'd probably be best to just have it as historical record and do something new with all your time and effort.
That has been my thought throughout the entire cycle. They put a LOT of time and effort into a project that, for the most part, doesn't even let them express their own creativity. Which is why I am so amazed that they might actually release.

Its the same logic by which most modders who say "I am gonna make Star Wars or LOTR" fail horribly. "Quality" mods take a LOT of time and effort. And when you are spending all you time recreating someone else's work, it is hard to stay motivated.


You can't beat free advertising, though. A well-done original mod probably would have never gotten the media coverage BM:S gets, so it's the perfect poster child for the people involved.
BM:S so far has mostly gotten publicity for the same reason Duke Nukem Forver did. Time (a few days :p) will tell if they get as bashed due to expectations.

Nalano
11-09-2012, 06:03 PM
I dislike you because you treat people like garbage

I call 'em like I see 'em. I would want nothing less in return.


That has been my thought throughout the entire cycle. They put a LOT of time and effort into a project that, for the most part, doesn't even let them express their own creativity.

There is something to be said, however, for expressing one's creativity within the constraints of an established project. I think their efforts will shine through no matter what. It's the product, not the creator, that I'm talking about.

gundato
11-09-2012, 06:15 PM
There is something to be said, however, for expressing one's creativity within the constraints of an established project. I think their efforts will shine through no matter what. It's the product, not the creator, that I'm talking about.
That's what you do at work. :p

Don't get me wrong, you can definitely see "talent" and the like. But it is also motivation. A "port" just shows if someone can be a peon, as it were. It doesn't show creative design abilities, it shows that you can do stuff with concept art.

Even if they radically redesigned a lot of levels, this personally just says to me "These guys should be hired by EA or Ubi as a team to make Rainbow Six 46" not "Give these guys funding and let them make their masterpiece". Maybe that is what they are going for, but I doubt most people aspire to be "Peon #12" as it were.

Nalano
11-09-2012, 06:18 PM
Even if they radically redesigned a lot of levels, this personally just says to me "These guys should be hired by EA or Ubi as a team to make Rainbow Six 46" not "Give these guys funding and let them make their masterpiece". Maybe that is what they are going for, but I doubt most people aspire to be "Peon #12" as it were.

The mod teams Valve hired were the ones that made something entirely new with the tools they had. These guys will likely be best used as graphics designers and level designers for somebody else's vision.

But having said that, it's a premature supposition, as this is only one (fan) project, and god knows what else they're doing.

Koobazaur
11-09-2012, 08:03 PM
I vaguely recall reading that they did a lot to tweak the layout of some levels (to the point that it is almost a re-imagining at points).

Which, frankly, I would really prefer because:


They put a LOT of time and effort into a project that, for the most part, doesn't even let them express their own creativity. ... And when you are spending all you time recreating someone else's work, it is hard to stay motivated.

Not only is it hard to stay motivated, it's honestly a bit of a wasted effort. When RPS was recently talking about (yet another) recreation of System Shock 2 level on (yet another) new engine, I got reminded how much I dislike remakes (http://koobazaur.com/lets-stop-the-fan-game-remakes-already/). In a nutshell, crossposting from my site:



...the original games are still there and, with advent of emulators, DosBox and Good Old Games, increaingly more accessible even on your brand new Windows 7, SLIed out rig. Why spend thousands of manhours assembling a successful indie team together and keeping it on track for months (a difficult and commendable feat of its own) just to recreate something that is already there? Why not put all these awesome resources to make something new?

Now, if you love your classics and want to see more of them, then do that make more of them, not mere replicas. Use them as inspiration. A new game based on tested mechanics of the old classics does not risk Cease & Desist Letters, pleases the fans of the oldies as well as new gamers, and still pays homage to the original developers. Its a win all around; you have your cake and you eat it too!


In a nutshell - I am excited and will play BM: Source, but I would have loved it much more if it was a new episode maybe from someone else's eyes (ala OpFor or BlueShift).

gundato
11-09-2012, 08:12 PM
Nice bit of advertising there...

And I think there is definitely room for remakes. I know people were bitching that there is no need for BG:EE because it can be "made with mods" and people hated JA:BIA (even before hearing about the real-time with pausing approach) because they had the old version.

To that, I say: So what?

I can spend an hour or so tweaking a special build of DOSBox to make Daggerfall look beautiful, but the underlying game is still clunky as hell. I would LOVE if Bethesda (or an approved dev team) took Daggerfall, fixed all the bugs, updated the graphics and assets, and did a re-release.

Or let's pick something harder to deal with. Warhammer 40k: Chaos Gate kind of came out at just the wrong time. It was on the cusp of the switch from 95 to 98 (let alone XP) and it is a bitch and a half to get working properly (although, Win7 does a pretty decent job). And I doubt that is ever gonna get better support than "Install XP in a virtual machine". So I would LOVE if that got a re-release in an "Enhanced Edition" form.

But I do agree that fan-remakes are questionable at best.

Brit89
12-09-2012, 05:13 PM
Was it just me or was the previous date of release to be the 12th? Eitherway, I can wait two more days. This mod is going to be immense!!! Hope it lives up.

c-Row
13-09-2012, 07:24 AM
Was it just me or was the previous date of release to be the 12th? Eitherway, I can wait two more days. This mod is going to be immense!!! Hope it lives up.

IIRC the announcement on the RPS front page said it was only 12 days until release - maybe that's were the confusion came from.

Lukasz
13-09-2012, 07:51 AM
The mod teams Valve hired were the ones that made something entirely new with the tools they had. These guys will likely be best used as graphics designers and level designers for somebody else's vision.

But having said that, it's a premature supposition, as this is only one (fan) project, and god knows what else they're doing.
these guys are not writers.

but they didn't JUST do artwork for source game. something so big as full conversion of HL:S does require a lot of programming
it is basically brand new game. the only thing they ripped of (so to speak) is the story and designs.

ado
13-09-2012, 08:19 AM
these guys are not writers.


Everybody is a writer, just need to put in enough time and effort to do it well (I abide to the 10.000 hour rule as a good rule of thumb). And considering how long it took them to get Black Mesa done and the scope of the project, I'd say they had both.

It very hard not to agree with Nalano. Why just not make your own game, instead of recreating the work or someone else? To me it all just seems like a huge waste of time and effort, when they could have made a game that they could proudly stamp their name on, call it their own, and possibly make a few bucks when all is said and done. With Black Mesa they can't do any of that.

Black Mesa reminds me of that "Raiders of the Lost Ark" remake that those school-kids where making after seeing the original film. It took them about the same time to finish their fan-wanking project before it became a footnote in film history books.

soldant
13-09-2012, 08:40 AM
Do they really need a reason? The entire "Oh what a waste of time they should have made their own game" argument is sort of irrelevant from their perspective since they wanted to remake Half Life. They have Valve's approval to do so, they're not charging you for it, and they have their own jobs outside of the mod. What's the issue here?

Not everything has to be made for money. They're making the project that they want to make, with their own time and money. If people will throw money at random indie outfits to make a shitty art game where you play a slug navigating a salt maze as a metaphor for working in a cube farm, then these guys can remake Half Life on their own time and money.

c-Row
13-09-2012, 08:42 AM
Why just not make your own game, instead of recreating the work or someone else?

Apart from the point I already mentioned, you cut out many necessary development steps (= extra time) since a lot of decisions have already been made in the original game.

TechnicalBen
13-09-2012, 08:45 AM
these guys are not [artists].


Come again? From what I've seen they did very well!

Lukasz
13-09-2012, 09:44 AM
Come again? From what I've seen they did very well!

?
what? you edit my post and then ask "come again"? the hell?

"Everybody is a writer, just need to put in enough time and effort to do it well (I abide to the 10.000 hour rule as a good rule of thumb). And considering how long it took them to get Black Mesa done and the scope of the project, I'd say they had both"
then everyone is everything... everyone is a pilot because everyone can sit down and pilot the plane. not very well, tough.

Let me rephrase that. They might be professional writers but this game does not feature that as story, characters, world is already established.
They do have programming skills, level design skills, various 'game making' skills. Based on what they had done. Therefore, nalano is not correct by saying that these guys are just "graphics designers and level designers" there is so much more to a project like that.
with modders for oblivion/skyrim who do reskins and create new dungeons, houses. he has point with them. Not with something like black mesa.

RakeShark
13-09-2012, 09:56 AM
It very hard not to agree with Nalano. Why just not make your own game, instead of recreating the work or someone else? To me it all just seems like a huge waste of time and effort, when they could have made a game that they could proudly stamp their name on, call it their own, and possibly make a few bucks when all is said and done. With Black Mesa they can't do any of that.

Black Mesa reminds me of that "Raiders of the Lost Ark" remake that those school-kids where making after seeing the original film. It took them about the same time to finish their fan-wanking project before it became a footnote in film history books.

As Tesla once said, "Love will find a way".

ado
13-09-2012, 10:00 AM
Hey I'm sure they're supper satisfied with their work and that for them it was a super gratifying experience, but I'm just saying that I could never justify an endeavor of this magnitude to myself. Especially not as a creative exercise. I'm sure the mod will be very successful, probably the most successful one since CS. But the majority of credit should still go to Valve because they did all the heavy lifting with coming up with the blueprint that these guys followed.

And the "a lot of work being already done for them" excuse is precisely that, an excuse. Less people have done amazing, original games from ground up in less time. All you do with that excuse is mark the Black Mesa devs as people that are unable to be creative game designers in their own right.

Lukasz
13-09-2012, 10:16 AM
Hey I'm sure they're supper satisfied with their work and that for them it was a super gratifying experience, but I'm just saying that I could never justify an endeavor of this magnitude to myself. Especially not as a creative exercise.
And? there are plenty of things on this planet which you would never justify and there are plenty of things which you would but others would not.
thats not an argument.


not sure whats up with the negativity toward the mod. It was something they wanted to do. You can't judge them for that. You can't say: they should create something original.
Cause that's their decision to make not yours.

frightlever
13-09-2012, 12:35 PM
Being able to play it will put a lot of this into context.

It might suck.

ado
13-09-2012, 12:59 PM
not sure whats up with the negativity toward the mod. It was something they wanted to do. You can't judge them for that. You can't say: they should create something original.
Cause that's their decision to make not yours.

Believe it or not I can say whatever the fuck I want :P

And I do say that the time would have been better spent on something original IMO. Why does it cause you so much pain to hear someone criticizing their decision?

I'm personally fine with their decision, hell I'll probably even end up playing the mod and then probably return here again to tell everyone what a pointless endeavor it was all along. How I was right. Get me some internet bragging rights.

Lukasz
13-09-2012, 01:31 PM
Believe it or not I can say whatever the fuck I want :P
well duh. that was not the context of what i said. yes. you are entitled to whatever you want to. i can disagree with it tough.


And I do say that the time would have been better spent on something original IMO. Why does it cause you so much pain to hear someone criticizing their decision?
relax :) doesn't cause me any pain. hardly care. just saying that it is their time, money they spend. only they can decide whether it is better to spend them on BMS or on something original. anyone else not connected to them can of course say their opinion but that opinion has no relevance or point.

only our opinion on how good the mode is and how willing we are to play the game is of any consequence. nothing more.

Outright Villainy
13-09-2012, 02:44 PM
I think I'm pretty much in the perfect position to enjoy this mod. I missed out on half life first time round, having an N64 and all, and when I played Half life 2 back in... 2009, I found it to be the finest shooter I ever did play. It really has aged magnificently. Half life 1 on the other hand, I just couldn't get into. It was just too old. The graphics were on thing, I can get past that, but it just felt creaky to me. So I never finished it. Barely even got going really. (I gave up shortly after the marines showed up.) So as long as it feels more like 2 than 1 I'm sure I'll enjoy the hell out of it. Minerva and Mission improbable sealed it for me that I can't get enough HL2 shooty times.

Tikey
13-09-2012, 03:10 PM
Everybody is a writer,

Nononono. Everybody can write, it doesn't mean that everybody can be a writer (or well, everybody can, most people will be terrible at it though).
Good writing takes a lot of learning and an understanding of structures, pacing, characterization and a lot of things. In gaming it's specially tricky because of player agency. Of course there are people that have an affinity to it and can do a good job
The everybody can be a writer mindset is a terrible thing.

deano2099
13-09-2012, 05:09 PM
Nononono. Everybody can write, it doesn't mean that everybody can be a writer (or well, everybody can, most people will be terrible at it though).
Good writing takes a lot of learning and an understanding of structures, pacing, characterization and a lot of things. In gaming it's specially tricky because of player agency. Of course there are people that have an affinity to it and can do a good job
The everybody can be a writer mindset is a terrible thing.

Everyone has a book in them, 99.9% of people should keep it there.

Vizjerie
14-09-2012, 02:27 AM
Nononono. Everybody can write, it doesn't mean that everybody can be a writer (or well, everybody can, most people will be terrible at it though).
Good writing takes a lot of learning and an understanding of structures, pacing, characterization and a lot of things. In gaming it's specially tricky because of player agency. Of course there are people that have an affinity to it and can do a good job
The everybody can be a writer mindset is a terrible thing.

that. true.

hamster
14-09-2012, 03:14 AM
I remember playing HL1 a short while back (by that i mean a few years ago). It wasn't too compelling. Now I have another chance to give it a shot with new graphics - thanks Black Mesa!

Donjo
14-09-2012, 01:09 PM
I will be return to Black Mesa in 2 hours and 37 minutes. Oh yes, I will return.

ado
14-09-2012, 02:00 PM
Nononono. Everybody can write, it doesn't mean that everybody can be a writer (or well, everybody can, most people will be terrible at it though).
Good writing takes a lot of learning and an understanding of structures, pacing, characterization and a lot of things. In gaming it's specially tricky because of player agency. Of course there are people that have an affinity to it and can do a good job
The everybody can be a writer mindset is a terrible thing.

Thanks for ignoring not only the rest of my post, but the rest of that sentence.

And yes everyone is a writer. Look at that Twilight woman, she gets paid millions to write and she clearly has no idea what shes doing.

Henke
14-09-2012, 03:34 PM
Wooop wooop t minus thirteen minutes muthafuckaaaaa

^^^just imagine all that being in all caps. the stupid forum software thinks it knows how my posts should be capitzalized better than I do! HARUMPH!

Flint
14-09-2012, 03:48 PM
Aaaand the site's crashed as expected.

starmatt
14-09-2012, 03:48 PM
Haha launch fail

kataras
14-09-2012, 03:49 PM
Lol and it went down as soon as the timer reached O. Anyone know if it's going to be on steam as well? Is their website the only d/l source?

Flint
14-09-2012, 03:50 PM
Lol and it went down as soon as the timer reached O. Anyone know if it's going to be on steam as well? Is their website the only d/l source?
The website is the only source at launch.

ZIGS
14-09-2012, 03:56 PM
Well, this is gonna take a while...

starmatt
14-09-2012, 03:58 PM
"It's probably not a problem, probably"

baby snot
14-09-2012, 04:03 PM
http://release.blackmesasource.com/pages/download_manager.html#

Hell knows if this works...

Flint
14-09-2012, 04:06 PM
Yeah I can see the download page now. But all the mirrors are hammered to death now, haha.

KauhuK
14-09-2012, 04:07 PM
fffffffffffffuuu... Waterfox blocked the download for torrent (prevent popup) And now it doesn't work anymore.

And now that I got that sorted out I can't even download the torrent it seems.

starmatt
14-09-2012, 04:08 PM
Can someone post the mirrors link for those who can't access the website please?

BobbyFizz
14-09-2012, 04:09 PM
Anyone got a link to the torrent of this, assuming there is one?

Edit: ok I can get on the download page, and it is perhaps the most pointless and frustrating way to a link a torrent literally ever.

It's almost as if they didn't take into account they were going to have any form of heavy load whatsoever

Flint
14-09-2012, 04:15 PM
The GameFront download link doesn't seem to be even linking to the file but the main page of the site.

emlow
14-09-2012, 04:15 PM
There goes my Friday night.

furius
14-09-2012, 04:16 PM
They won't be finished making the game for another couple of months, and this is just a diversion.

tomeoftom
14-09-2012, 04:19 PM
Wait, is there a torrent? Can anyone post the link please? Very stupid way to launch something this popular and free. Why not just post a bunch of torrent links on Twitter? Hugely naive. Oh well.

starmatt
14-09-2012, 04:20 PM
Ok here's a bunch of links from the steam group chat that work:

http://www.shacknews.com/file/32999/black-mesa-source-10-windows-free-game

http://ryanmaffit.com/bm/BlackMesa_Original.torrent

Flint
14-09-2012, 04:24 PM
Ok here's a bunch of links from the steam group chat that works:

http://www.shacknews.com/file/32999/black-mesa-source-10-windows-free-game

http://ryanmaffit.com/bm/BlackMesa_Original.torrent
You sir are a hero.

emlow
14-09-2012, 04:24 PM
Thank you!

BobbyFizz
14-09-2012, 04:25 PM
Wait, is there a torrent? Can anyone post the link please? Very stupid way to launch something this popular and free. Why not just post a bunch of torrent links on Twitter? Hugely naive. Oh well.

The official torrent is on their download page. Sounds simple enough. But then you realise there is a 25 second countdown for you to click the link. And then of course its linked to another page that is dead. I am baffled.

ZIGS
14-09-2012, 04:26 PM
Downloading from Shacknews at roughly 1MB/s :D

baby snot
14-09-2012, 04:30 PM
Downloading from Shacknews at roughly 1MB/s :D

Bastard. Getting much lower...

I'm hitting the sack. This plus FTL on a Saturday morning for me. I am 10 all over again.

Grawl
14-09-2012, 04:34 PM
I've mirrored the torrent, feel free to use it.

Here is the torrent:

http://somesingawful.com/grawl/BlackMesa.torrent

You can also add these trackers to make it go faster:

udp://tracker.publicbt.com:80
udp://tracker.openbittorrent.com:80
udp://tracker.publicbt.com:80
udp://tracker.istole.it:6969
udp://tracker.ccc.de:80

Just paste these into the tracker list of whatever torrent client you use.

BobbyFizz
14-09-2012, 04:37 PM
I've mirrored the torrent, feel free to use it.

Here is the torrent:

http://somesingawful.com/grawl/BlackMesa.torrent

You can also add these trackers to make it go faster:

udp://tracker.publicbt.com:80
udp://tracker.openbittorrent.com:80
udp://tracker.publicbt.com:80
udp://tracker.istole.it:6969
udp://tracker.ccc.de:80

Just paste these into the tracker list of whatever torrent client you use.

Perfect cheers. Why didn't they do that in the first place?

tomeoftom
14-09-2012, 04:39 PM
Thanks so much!

auxout
14-09-2012, 04:55 PM
Torrent keeps cutting out. 200 Seeds to 7000+ peers means this isn't happening anytime soon.
What's the SDK i'm getting off steam to run this?? I have Source SDK, SDK Base 2006 & 2007.

tomeoftom
14-09-2012, 04:56 PM
SDK Base 2007; you're all good.

auxout
14-09-2012, 05:00 PM
SDK Base 2007; you're all good.
Many thanks. I'll grab that while I wait.

http://www.shacknews.com/file/32999/black-mesa-source-10-windows-free-game

Direct download and i'm getting 233 KB/s. Better than the 20 i'm getting for the torrent.

Flint
14-09-2012, 05:01 PM
My torrent's going fairly well, all things considered. Zigzagging from 100kb/s to 500kb/s, mostly around the 200kb/s region.

Grawl
14-09-2012, 05:05 PM
Here are some more trackers: http://pastebin.com/11bAn494

edit: nevermind, the new ones don't work (at least for me).

Shooop
14-09-2012, 05:21 PM
I'm baffled as to how there's no official RPS story on this news yet. I learned about it from PC Gamer of all places.

TwoToes
14-09-2012, 05:23 PM
Unfortunately until gameupdates comes online this is the state of the torrent:

https://sites.google.com/site/stuffjunkbox123456789/blackmesa_torrent_availability.png

edit - woowhooo. stupid ipfilters.

https://sites.google.com/site/stuffjunkbox123456789/blackmesa_torrent_availability_2.png


edit 2 - D'OH!

https://sites.google.com/site/stuffjunkbox123456789/blackmesa_torrent_availability_3.png

Donjo
14-09-2012, 06:56 PM
Awww jeez... thought I'd get to play a few hours this evening... oh well, time to git ma drink on. This will be my hangover cure. Excellent.

ReV VAdAUL
14-09-2012, 07:13 PM
There are a lot of perks to living in the country. The truly paltry download speed I'm getting on this is not among them. Ah well, I've waited years for this already what is a couple more days?

gibb3h
14-09-2012, 07:15 PM
i'm getting it from http://ftp.acc.umu.se/mirror/misc/BlackMesa/

about 1mb/s (my max is 1.5 any way....)

AlexClockwork
14-09-2012, 08:07 PM
Yay, just one hour to go...

Tres
14-09-2012, 08:16 PM
Uh, so apparently BM has some pretty terrible performance issues, or at least TB says so on his stream. Was expecting ultra 60+ on my laptop before, now not sure if I should even bother to download it. Duh.

Carra
14-09-2012, 08:41 PM
i'm getting it from http://ftp.acc.umu.se/mirror/misc/BlackMesa/

about 1mb/s (my max is 1.5 any way....)

3.0 MB/s - 16 mins remaining, *cancels the torrent*.

icemann
14-09-2012, 09:25 PM
My first impressions after an hour and a half's play of it:

In the complex (prior to the explosion etc). Odd. You can drop some objects into others. As in, you can drop books into other books + other things. Minor nit picking. Far more load times in the tram ride than I remember. Same with other areas. Looks great though.

Voice acting is top notch for a mod.

The enemies attack speeds have changed somewhat which is going to take some getting used to. And the sonic wave enemies sound prior to doing the attack is more quicker and much quieter, giving you less time to rush in and hack them to death before they can attack compared to Half-Life 1 standard.

TixyLixx
14-09-2012, 09:47 PM
Download the torrent and add the trackers.......

Simple.

Carra
14-09-2012, 09:49 PM
This is pathetic, I'm half an hour in and I'm already stuck for fifteen minutes. Stuck in a room with two red lasers and can't continue (I probably missed the crowbar). Sigh, I'll go and find some HL1 walkthrough.

But yes, excellent voice acting :)

icemann
14-09-2012, 10:03 PM
If the forums here allowed for spoiler / hidden text I would say where you get the crowbar. All I will say is that in the remake you don't get the crowbar where you used to in HL1. I'll save the surprise for you to discover. It's a bit after the bit your up to. Which is all I'll say.

Be sure to try and get the achievements for doing random stuff. I won't say what, but that 1 is prior to getting the hazard suit, and a 2nd not long after the cascade.

hariseldon
14-09-2012, 10:17 PM
Love it, some nice added touches when dicking around hitting people with random objects.

RakeShark
14-09-2012, 10:32 PM
Squee. Just re-met the first vortigant. To quote Freeman's Mind "That's it! All aliens are bastards!"

tomeoftom
14-09-2012, 10:52 PM
Got up to the first bit with the controllable train. It's all totally gravy.

agentorange
14-09-2012, 11:19 PM
Everybody is a writer, just need to put in enough time and effort to do it well (I abide to the 10.000 hour rule as a good rule of thumb).


This is the most wrong statement in the history of wrong, and why so many games have terrible writing.

Flint
14-09-2012, 11:56 PM
This is absolutely amazing. I adore what they've done with the environments, the added dialogue bits, everything. It's bizarre to believe it's just a group of modders who's done this (although the basis being one of the greatest games ever has probably helped). Totally professional quality, in love.

SephKing
15-09-2012, 12:07 AM
^^ Agreed. Would have happily paid for this. Almost feels wrong that's it's free ;-)

postinternetsyndrome
15-09-2012, 12:14 AM
Played up until We've got hostiles now. It's half-life, but beautiful. Got a bit confused when I met the first vort. HL2 has conditioned me to think of them as allies... Really feels wrong to kill them, but I guess that's a good thing really.

Carra
15-09-2012, 12:27 AM
The atmosphere in the game is amazing. You never know what's gonna hit you when you turn a corner.

Sketch
15-09-2012, 01:05 AM
So glad to see so much positive reaction. Playing through HL1 now, as I wanted it fresh so I could fully appreciate what they've done and it's still bloody amazing. So, have they captured the Half Life feeling?

LTK
15-09-2012, 01:18 AM
Hot damn, did they turn the difficulty up for this game. Vorts don't even wait half a second before they fry you. Marines are crazy accurate at long range, and insanely deadly up close. Bullsquids will spray acid everywhere instead of one easily-dodged squirt. Houndeyes will fuck you up if they band together.

It's a shame they can't use many of the original sound assets though. Some of the original sound effects kicked ass. They also seem to have neglected to give the Hydra its full range of AI behavior. I think it just bangs stuff now, and nothing else. It's not nearly as tense or scary. The original impact sound of the Hydra's claw had a bone-shaking reverb to it, which lacks here as well.

They have done a remarkably good job of it, despite the inevitable complaints that will arise when the mod isn't exactly like the original, only better. Places like the office complex have a number of familiar bits, as well as spots that feel completely new, but never out of place.

MD!
15-09-2012, 01:48 AM
Uh, so apparently BM has some pretty terrible performance issues, or at least TB says so on his stream. Was expecting ultra 60+ on my laptop before, now not sure if I should even bother to download it. Duh.

I would give it a go. My computer is old and rubbish, and it runs okay for me. (Playable at 1680x1050 with 90 fov and default video settings, which I think in most cases means 'high'.)

edit: It seems really well done, too. I haven't played a whole lot, and I'm not sure yet whether I want to replay all of Half-Life, but I am definitely impressed. As others have said, it feels like a good looking, faithful but non-identical remake.


edit 2, if anyone wants more detail about the performance:

Win XP, 2GB RAM, Pentium E6500, HD4650.

As I said, I'm running at 1680x1050, and it's playable while looking really nice. Not sure of the exact framerate, but basically it is not great, but good enough for this sort of game. (i.e. not a fast-paced multiplayer game, and not a game with shitty mouse input that lags by umpteen frames.) I assume I could get it nice and smooth if I turned some things down.

fiddlesticks
15-09-2012, 02:40 AM
Uh, so apparently BM has some pretty terrible performance issues, or at least TB says so on his stream. Was expecting ultra 60+ on my laptop before, now not sure if I should even bother to download it. Duh.
The game runs fine for me on the highest settings and I don't have a very powerful computer. Loading times are a bit long, but considering how good this mod looks it's not really a surprise.

I played up to the beginning of the "We've got Hostiles" chapter and so far I'm loving it. It's close enough to the original to activate all the nostalgia buttons but distinct enough to feel completely fresh. I only have a few minor nitpicks:

- Bullsquids seem to go down pretty quick, even on hard difficulty. I suppose it's to compensate for their shots, which are now a lot more likely to hit you, but it still feels odd for them to die so easily.

- Why did they take out the Glock's alternate fire mode? It's not all that vital, but I still liked using it occasionally.

- The magnum's iron sights. I really don't think they work well with HL's gameplay. Though to be fair, you don't really have to use them, the gun is perfectly accurate on its own.

All in all, I'm definitely looking forward to playing a bit more tomorrow.

mashakos
15-09-2012, 02:49 AM
I have a confession to make: I never finished the original Half Life. I was a junior in college when it came out. Got it, started playing it, had my mind blown (remember this was when Quake 2 was considered a masterpiece) then decided I wouldn't sit down and play it until I had enough time to fully appreciate it. Jump cut to 14 years later, and here I am with Black Mesa.

will finally be able to make time for this. Could not have come at a better time.

Serenegoose
15-09-2012, 03:03 AM
Got tingles going up the topside elevator first time. The superb music really didn't hurt.

RakeShark
15-09-2012, 04:17 AM
I only have a few minor nitpicks:

- Bullsquids seem to go down pretty quick, even on hard difficulty. I suppose it's to compensate for their shots, which are now a lot more likely to hit you, but it still feels odd for them to die so easily.

- Why did they take out the Glock's alternate fire mode? It's not all that vital, but I still liked using it occasionally.

- The magnum's iron sights. I really don't think they work well with HL's gameplay. Though to be fair, you don't really have to use them, the gun is perfectly accurate on its own.

All in all, I'm definitely looking forward to playing a bit more tomorrow.

1. To be fair, bullsquids weren't all that tough, though they were meaty ambushers at melee.
2. The MP5 they have in is a three-round burst primary fire, so in a way the glock alternate fire is preserved, just on a different weapon with a larger clip.
3. Remember the Magnum had a zoom. I think the iron sights was a compromise, plus the design was to make the crossbow the sniper specialist.

Also, I feel really guilty for leaving 3 guards and 2 scientists behind at the elevator pit'o'doom. But as their colleague up the shaft proved, they couldn't go any further. :(

soldant
15-09-2012, 05:25 AM
Wow. This is really good. Stays true enough to the original while taking advantage of modern physics and graphics. Outstanding effort!

auxout
15-09-2012, 10:43 AM
Page load fail

auxout
15-09-2012, 10:44 AM
I have a confession to make: I never finished the original Half Life.

That makes two of us. Although I didn't finish it because I was 9 and got stuck; I forget where. A great opportunity to finish a classic.

As a side note anyone noticed that the walk key doesn't work. Have to tapa-tapa-tapa behind everyone at the beginning.

Spengbab
15-09-2012, 10:58 AM
So is this on Steam yet or wot (Ive no idea how this Gamehubworkshoplight thing works)?

kyrieee
15-09-2012, 11:27 AM
- The magnum's iron sights. I really don't think they work well with HL's gameplay. Though to be fair, you don't really have to use them, the gun is perfectly accurate on its own.

It's not that accurate really, which has been bothering me. The glock is more accurate actually.

Also regarding bullsquids, I think they're more scary even if they go down easier. On Hard this game is a good challenge.

Dubbill
15-09-2012, 12:18 PM
I enjoyed the new chat between scientists discussing the merits of originality versus refinement.

LTK
15-09-2012, 01:14 PM
I enjoyed the new chat between scientists discussing the merits of originality versus refinement.
Now that you mention it, yeah, that was great. All the science-speak distracted me from the meta-commentary.

Also, did you catch the guy who laments the tedium of being an NPC?

Skull
15-09-2012, 03:14 PM
The game is great, its everything I expected it to be and more. I would happily have paid 15 or so for this game, its everything I love about FPS. Admittedly, I'm not very far (just done the headcrab elevator) but its been very solid and the difference in level design from the original makes it feel fresh whilst still maintaining that sense of nostalgia.

Highlights for me so far have been turning on a microwave whilst a headcrab was inside and going into a security office and seeing a mug with a picture of the Chucklebrothers on it! And the music is fantastic as well, I know they're not using Valve sounds and such but its hard to believe they didn't get the Half Life composer on board to do the music. All in all a very fun game that I would highly recommend and pretty much underlines the point why computers are better than consoles in every single way.

On a side note, I wan't to d/l this on a friends computer, he doesn't have any Valve games, but will downloading TF2 for free allow him to d/l the Source SDK base which is required?

baby snot
15-09-2012, 03:31 PM
On a side note, I wan't to d/l this on a friends computer, he doesn't have any Valve games, but will downloading TF2 for free allow him to d/l the Source SDK base which is required?

Install BM. Restart Steam. Launch BM. It should then install SDK base. He wont need TF2 (or any other Valve game for that matter).

Skull
15-09-2012, 03:55 PM
Install BM. Restart Steam. Launch BM. It should then install SDK base. He wont need TF2 (or any other Valve game for that matter).

Thanks man! I don't know if this game can really be classed as a mod then :P Surely just a free game, still good anyways.

One thing I am missing is the Gravity Gun - the best weapon I have ever held. I remember Half Life 1 had some weird alien weapons towards the second half of the game so it would be interesting to see how they handle then. I remember that gun that shot bees or something, I used to properly abuse the AI by standing round a corner and letting the bees hone in on the enemy. The AI was so stupid it didn't even bother coming to check why loads of bees were flying round a corner and killing it :P. Can't imagine I'm going to get away with that trick this time though.

LTK
15-09-2012, 04:28 PM
Oh man, I can't believe how much they're off target with the Ichthyosaur. Killing it in BMS was piss easy. The beast swims way too slowly and the water it's in is crystal clear. If I remember it right, in HL1 the water was really murky, and the beast swam so fast that its movement animation couldn't keep up, so it was a jittery blur. It was primally terrifying.

Apparently the Gargantua has lost its stomp attack as well. It's weird that some enemies became much tougher while boss monsters got nerfed really bad.

fiddlesticks
15-09-2012, 04:53 PM
3. Remember the Magnum had a zoom. I think the iron sights was a compromise, plus the design was to make the crossbow the sniper specialist.
The Magnum didn't have a zoom function in single player and I don't think it would have added anything, just as I feel the iron sight doesn't anything in this mod. I agree with your other points though.


It's not that accurate really, which has been bothering me. The glock is more accurate actually.
To be fair, the Glock was incredibly accurate in the original as well. The Magnum does feel a bit less accurate than it used to, but I suppose that's because you get it much earlier. By contrast, the shotgun is now aqcuired a bit later and in turn its damage was increased considerably.

I'm up to "Apprehension" now and I love what they did with Blast Pit. Traversing the rocket silo gives you a sense of height that you usually don't get in video games. The fan room and the radiation waterfall at the end in particular are breathtaking.

In general, the level design has been very good, though I'm a bit saddened that they cut out a lot of the exploration in "On a Rail". I like most of the gameplay changes as well. Monsters die a lot easier, but they attack quicker as well, so overall every enemy encounter feels like a real fight for survival.

The only part I didn't really like so far is the audio. I miss the announcement system from Half-Life and the robotic voices of the HECU soldiers. And the new metallic clang the tentacles make just doesn't seem as terrifying.

Speaking of the tentacles, are you just meant to rush that part? I tried to crouch through like I did in the original, but they always managed to spot me. So eventually I just started throwing grenades like a madman and running to the exits.

Sketch
15-09-2012, 05:54 PM
Oh man, I can't believe how much they're off target with the Ichthyosaur. Killing it in BMS was piss easy. The beast swims way too slowly and the water it's in is crystal clear. If I remember it right, in HL1 the water was really murky, and the beast swam so fast that its movement animation couldn't keep up, so it was a jittery blur. It was primally terrifying.

Apparently the Gargantua has lost its stomp attack as well. It's weird that some enemies became much tougher while boss monsters got nerfed really bad.

The Ichthyosaur is really not that bad either, in the original game I killed it with a crowbar. It's bite is powerful, but that's about it.

YourMessageHere
15-09-2012, 06:49 PM
What an awesome mod. So well put together.

Love the magnum iron sight, wish all the guns had it, particularly the Glock. The Magnum is quite definitely more accurate than the Glock, shot for shot. Take your time and it's right where it should be. Also love the way your hands/weapon get splattered with alien gore/bullsquid spit. New crossbow scope reflection is also utterly superb, although I prefer the style of the old one.

Generally, the thing's a bit too dark for my liking. There were dark bits but by and large HL was fairly well lit. This looks more like HL2 - which is fairly understandable, really. I can live with that though.

I couldn't live with the ridiculous HL2 ammo limits, however, so I went back and changed them back to HL levels. They're in cfg/skill.cfg if anyone's interested. Other stuff I don't like: the Marine voices, the weird grenade trajectory.

Re: Icthyosaur - that, or at least the first one, is probably the single scariest thing ever in a game, for me. This time round I had to psyche myself up to deal with the first one. I don't know what settings LTK is playing on, but in the pool with two of them, I killed one, took a breath and the other was RIGHT BESIDE ME out of nowhere, it came on that fast. The water's pretty murky for me, and they don't break the surface at all - you have to go in to fight them, without knowing where they are. I'm glad they're a bit easier to kill now.

The Gargantua is, I think, tougher now. The flame effect is better too, and I like the fact it has pincers now. Scary thing.

Mohorovicic
15-09-2012, 07:36 PM
I still don't understand why this is a thing.

Want to replay Half Life? Well then just replay the Half Life.

Seriously, the only thing this mod seems to have going for it is that it's been in development four times longer than Half Life itself, and how the hell is that even a good thing?

Tres
15-09-2012, 07:44 PM
It's shiny.

TechnicalBen
15-09-2012, 07:53 PM
I still don't understand why this is a thing.

Want to replay Half Life? Well then just replay the Half Life.

Seriously, the only thing this mod seems to have going for it is that it's been in development four times longer than Half Life itself, and how the hell is that even a good thing?

Some people like other flavors of ice cream. This is a different flavor. Get over it. :D

Lukasz
15-09-2012, 08:09 PM
anyone playing the mod on shitty computer. Pentium 4, 8xxx Nvidia... 2gb of ram? if yes. whats the performance?

tomeoftom
15-09-2012, 09:18 PM
Just came to the conclusion of Black Mesa (as you jump into the Xen portal). Absolutely brilliant every which-way. The music is fantastic, the environments are so lovingly designed, the audio is engrossing, the combat is really quite crunchy and urgent (only one moment where I got frustrated, too), the visual direction and style on the whole is incredibly nice, the attention to detail is ridiculous, aaaaAAAArgh it's just too good. Above all else, you get a sense that either the team was very well curated, or the project lead has a lot of taste and good sense. It's practically flawless. So happy right now.

RakeShark
15-09-2012, 10:56 PM
Oh god, the alien hornet gun. *shudder*

rsherhod
16-09-2012, 12:06 AM
I still don't understand why this is a thing.

Want to replay Half Life? Well then just replay the Half Life.

Seriously, the only thing this mod seems to have going for it is that it's been in development four times longer than Half Life itself, and how the hell is that even a good thing?

Wow Mohorovicic, you're so non-conformist.

LTK
16-09-2012, 12:38 AM
Oh god, the alien hornet gun. *shudder*
Christ, that was horrible. I'd hesitate at using that for the first time, too.

The ammunition depot segment is another one of the things that made HL1 great. There's just so much task variety they have going on, but they never deviate from standard FPS controls or gameplay. Its tension curve is pretty much pitch perfect. Even though BMS takes some liberties with the game, they really do it justice.

Speaking of a tension curve, I was surprised to see that they pretty much removed the entire collapsing bunker segment at Forget About Freeman, and let you take as much time as you liked. That bit could be somewhat frustrating in the original, but it did do an excellent job of breaking up the regular gameplay once again.

Also, I love the Gluon Gun.

coldvvvave
16-09-2012, 12:48 AM
I still don't understand why this is a thing.

Want to replay Half Life? Well then just replay the Half Life.
In 640x480.

MD!
16-09-2012, 01:02 AM
I still don't understand why this is a thing.

Want to replay Half Life? Well then just replay the Half Life.

Because people want to play Half-Life + nicer graphics + a bit of novelty value. Do you really not understand, or are you just saying you personally don't have that desire?


anyone playing the mod on shitty computer. Pentium 4, 8xxx Nvidia... 2gb of ram? if yes. whats the performance?

I'm playing it on a Pentium E6500, with 2GB of RAM and an HD4650. I'm not really up with hardware specs but I think that means my CPU is better and our video cards are similar? It runs okay* for me at 1680 x 1050, with fov 90 and video settings on their defaults, which I think mostly means 'high'.

*depending on standards, but I think mine are relatively high and I would call it 'playable with some annoying drops, but good enough that I haven't bothered to turn anything down yet'

LTK
16-09-2012, 01:18 AM
Mine has a Pentium dual-core and a NVidia 9600. At default settings, the game runs very smoothly, but once multiple enemies start to show up, in large, open environments, the framerate can tank pretty hard. It was nigh impossible to target the Gargantua with the airstrike computer on five frames per second, and I have no chance of winning the final reactor room fight once the Houndeyes show up. I think I'm just gonna leave it there, and play the rest on my desktop.

I think, basically, if you have run Half-Life 2, then you can run this.

soldant
16-09-2012, 01:21 AM
Generally, the thing's a bit too dark for my liking. There were dark bits but by and large HL was fairly well lit. This looks more like HL2 - which is fairly understandable, really. I can live with that though.
It does seem to subscribe to the Doom 3 school of thought when it comes to lighting. Part of that is probably because HL's lighting was a lot more limited so it needed more in the way of ambient lighting. But still some places are practically pitch black and too easy to get disoriented in. Also I think they went a little too far with some of the industrial areas, they look like they've been abandoned for a hundred years or something.

Can't agree on the grenades though - they work pretty much the same as the HL2 grenades except they're lighter and have no timer indication. The old HL grenade mechanics are absurdly bad.


I still don't understand why this is a thing. Want to replay Half Life? Well then just replay the Half Life.
Oh, you...​ *giggles*

MD!
16-09-2012, 01:53 AM
Ah, when talking about hardware and performance, I should have added that I haven't gone far into the game. So as LTK pointed out, things will probably get shakier later on.

deano2099
16-09-2012, 01:56 AM
I kinda get where Mohorovicic is coming from.
I mean there's nothing wrong with the mod, it's HL but prettier. And HL still runs fine (Steam version supports higher resolutions and there's HL Source).
It's still a cool project, but I don't get the ridiculous amount of excitement about it.

kyrieee
16-09-2012, 02:03 AM
Can't agree on the grenades though - they work pretty much the same as the HL2 grenades except they're lighter and have no timer indication. The old HL grenade mechanics are absurdly bad.

The grenades are fucked. I guess I'm the opposite of you because in general I much prefer the HL1 grenade mechanics, I feel like I can throw them way more accurately (particularly in CS) but I'm okay with the HL2 ones. The thing I don't like about them is that they don't come out from the center of your screen, so if you're peeking around a corner or just trying to make a precision throw while you're near something then the grenade is going to hit the environment most of the time, even though it looked like you had a clean throw.

Anyway, the grenades in this game. There's no power in the throw, at all. There's the part in Surface Tension where you have to throw grenades into the sniper nests and I stood in one spot and reloaded the game a bunch of times just trying every possible kind of throw and it just didn't work. I wasn't more than 10m away from the nest but I had to backtrack past a bunch of obstacles so I could get right under it because I couldn't throw the grenade that far. It was really dumb. The grenades also don't have a very large explosion radius, I think they're kind of shit in general. I'll take the HL1 grenades over them any day.

sabrage
16-09-2012, 02:11 AM
HL1 has quite possibly the worst grenades I've ever used in a video game. How could they have made them worse?

auxout
16-09-2012, 02:53 AM
Grenades fall out your hand and fragment towards your testes

soldant
16-09-2012, 05:11 AM
The grenades are fucked. I guess I'm the opposite of you because in general I much prefer the HL1 grenade mechanics, I feel like I can throw them way more accurately (particularly in CS) but I'm okay with the HL2 ones.
The HL grenades were broken though... namely because the physics weren't there. It just sort of jittered away in a ridiculous arc, and then either dropped dead still or jammed itself into a corner of the room. The HL grenade mechanics were rifle for exploiting - all you had to do was learn the silly path and that was it. The HL2 grenades at least react somewhat realistically, or at least how you'd expect a flying object to move.

That said I think the issue is that the geometry in some cases doesn't suit the grenades. Blast Pit really pissed me off with that - I died several times trying to come out of the lower level because when I'd toss a grenade to distract the Tentacles, it'd usually hit the metal platform just above the door and fly down into the pit. I think it throws it up too high initially, as if it's an underarm throw, while HL2 grenades feel more like overarm throws and don't arc so high by default.


HL1 has quite possibly the worst grenades I've ever used in a video game. How could they have made them worse?
They didn't.

Koobazaur
16-09-2012, 05:36 AM
Best line from NPC following me so far: "oh I see what you're doing. You're giving me the silent treatment."

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/Koobazaur/emot/yayayay.gif

tomeoftom
16-09-2012, 05:59 AM
While we're being spoilsports, did anyone else find the marines-rappell-through-bio-labs-lobby-roof bit absolute bitch hard? That was really annoying - your damage indicators are really confusing and innaccurate, so it took me ages to realise theres's two guys on the lip of the roof's window.

soldant
16-09-2012, 06:21 AM
That was really annoying - your damage indicators are really confusing and innaccurate, so it took me ages to realise theres's two guys on the lip of the roof's window.
I didn't have so much trouble with that one except for the fact that they deal out a fair bit of damage (and the SMG's absurdly inaccurate for the player, it wasn't that bad in the original surely?), but I did have an issue during Surface Tension when you have to drop down a fan shaft. A marine was shooting me from somewhere but whenever I looked around I couldn't find them. The damage indicators are worthless.

Mohorovicic
16-09-2012, 06:53 AM
Because people want to play Half-Life + nicer graphics + a bit of novelty value. Do you really not understand, or are you just saying you personally don't have that desire?

I do understand.

But there's a difference between wanting to replay an old game with shinier graphics and the absolute mad circlejerk the Black Mesa launch was.

Flint
16-09-2012, 07:33 AM
It's also far from just being a straight-up 1-to-1 remake of the old game with shinier graphics, they've played around with level design and mechanics a fair bit (to a great effect).

Personally, HL1 is one of the greatest games of all time and I've played it so many times during these past 14 years that I know the whole thing inside and out. Black Mesa was, and is, an incredibly exciting gaming event for me because it's the closest I can get to experience something I adore so much all fresh and 'new' again. And it's a sheer joy to play because of how immensely well-done it is.

re: grenades - they're my least favourite thing in BM as well. I appreciate the added physics but they feel like they have no weight and aiming them (or rather, not overshooting them far into the distance) is really awkward compared to the original ones.

sk2k
16-09-2012, 07:55 AM
So, no one talks about the jumping? Is it just me or do i have to use CTRL+jump more than in HL1? The jump height feels somewhat low in Black Mesa.

soldant
16-09-2012, 09:17 AM
So, no one talks about the jumping? Is it just me or do i have to use CTRL+jump more than in HL1? The jump height feels somewhat low in Black Mesa.
The jumping puzzles are terrible, but they were terrible in HL as well. I constantly miss jumps and use crouch jump by default now, otherwise it's too easy to miss platforms by the tiniest amount. Also you could exploit the old HL physics by pressing backwards to stop in mid air. In BM if you overcompensate or slide too far, you fall.

The First Door
16-09-2012, 10:32 AM
So, no one talks about the jumping? Is it just me or do i have to use CTRL+jump more than in HL1? The jump height feels somewhat low in Black Mesa.

Yeah, I think you have to use the crouch jump lots more in this that the original too, which is a bit odd. Still though, I always liked the environmental jumping puzzles from the original. It actually felt like you are working you way through machinery and going places you aren't supposed to go rather than following a really, really specific route. Which you still are of course, it's just hidden well.

I've not gotten that far into the game yet, but I'm already amazed by how good it has been and how much I've been enjoying it. I spent ages just wondering around in Incoming and talking to everyone to get all their lines (and maybe throwing bins at them). It also reminded my how many scenes from the original are burned into my memory because I keep getting to bits in this and being all excited that it's THAT bit!

Playing this game has also reminded me how much modern FPS games hold your hand and assume you are incapable of paying any attention. I've actually had to stop and think about how to progress and examine the environment for signs and clues. Plus when did most games decide to stop allowing you to shoot friendlies or fall off of things? If I want to be an idiot and jump into a pit, let me!

kyrieee
16-09-2012, 10:47 AM
I didn't have so much trouble with that one except for the fact that they deal out a fair bit of damage (and the SMG's absurdly inaccurate for the player, it wasn't that bad in the original surely?), but I did have an issue during Surface Tension when you have to drop down a fan shaft. A marine was shooting me from somewhere but whenever I looked around I couldn't find them. The damage indicators are worthless.

Yeah the grunt AI is an issue. They react too fast, aim too well and can spot you if one pixel of your foot is in their line of sight. It gets to be quite annoying. The Apache bossfight was also suuuper annoying.

Also, not that it matters but when do you drop down a fan shaft in that level? :P I don't remember that.

soldant
16-09-2012, 11:19 AM
Also, not that it matters but when do you drop down a fan shaft in that level? :P I don't remember that.
Oh sorry, not Surface Tension. It's still We've Got Hostiles at that point, got confused for a bit.

Serenegoose
16-09-2012, 02:18 PM
I didn't have so much trouble with that one except for the fact that they deal out a fair bit of damage (and the SMG's absurdly inaccurate for the player, it wasn't that bad in the original surely?), but I did have an issue during Surface Tension when you have to drop down a fan shaft. A marine was shooting me from somewhere but whenever I looked around I couldn't find them. The damage indicators are worthless.

That happened to me too. I think it might be a bug. in the original game two marines drop down to fight you - in this, one doesn't - I think the other gets caught on some wonky debris textures up top, but can continue to shoot down. The SMG definitely was really inaccurate in the original - but black mesa features more long distances than the original did, so it stands out a lot more.

coldvvvave
16-09-2012, 02:39 PM
I like the SMG, especially how it fires in short bursts as if it doesn't have a semi-auto mod... or maybe Gordon just doesn't know about it because he is a clueless civilian.

fiddlesticks
16-09-2012, 02:45 PM
The grenades in Half-Life don't make a lot of sense, but I still liked them a lot because it was very easy to be consistent with them. Once you figured out how they worked you could do all sorts of neat stuff. By contrast, HL2's grenade bounce all over the place which makes them mostly useless. I don't think I ever used them aside from killing snipers and turrets.


So, no one talks about the jumping? Is it just me or do i have to use CTRL+jump more than in HL1? The jump height feels somewhat low in Black Mesa.
The jumping is by far the worst part of the mod. Almost every obstacle requires the crouch jump, which makes me wonder why they didn't scrap it entirely and just increase the height of your default jump. It doesn't help that running is now an additional button, which means some parts require you to press W + Shift + Space + Ctrl. That's not very comfortable. It's funny in a way, jumping puzzles are the one aspect of the original most people agree could be improved and yet they somehow managed to make it even worse.

And speaking of the marines, what bothers me about them is that they are absolutely relentless. In the original they couldn't move and shoot at the same time, so an easy strategy was throwing a grenade at them and then shooting them down while they were relocating. Here you are under continous fire as long as you're in their line of sight. I'm not even sure if they ever reload. This means that on hard difficulty the only real way of fighting them is standing around a corner and taking potshots at them. Not exactly a fun strategy.

Also the Apache fight on the dam was terrible. Here's an enemy that is incredibly accurate at any distance, can kill you in a matter of seconds, always knows instinctively where you are and never stops firing. It's a shame because as a setpiece the dam was amazing, but that fight kind of ruined it for me.

DaftPunk
16-09-2012, 03:18 PM
Do i need to have HL2 installed to play this ?

Flint
16-09-2012, 03:30 PM
Do i need to have HL2 installed to play this ?
No, just Source SDK Base 2007.

DaftPunk
16-09-2012, 03:42 PM
Thanks you mister,Mod is installing,hihihi i'm excited :3

peschiNL
16-09-2012, 03:45 PM
In 640x480.

you can play HL source in any resolution.

LTK
16-09-2012, 04:15 PM
The jumping is by far the worst part of the mod. Almost every obstacle requires the crouch jump, which makes me wonder why they didn't scrap it entirely and just increase the height of your default jump. It doesn't help that running is now an additional button, which means some parts require you to press W + Shift + Space + Ctrl. That's not very comfortable. It's funny in a way, jumping puzzles are the one aspect of the original most people agree could be improved and yet they somehow managed to make it even worse.

And speaking of the marines, what bothers me about them is that they are absolutely relentless. In the original they couldn't move and shoot at the same time, so an easy strategy was throwing a grenade at them and then shooting them down while they were relocating. Here you are under continous fire as long as you're in their line of sight. I'm not even sure if they ever reload. This means that on hard difficulty the only real way of fighting them is standing around a corner and taking potshots at them. Not exactly a fun strategy.

Also the Apache fight on the dam was terrible. Here's an enemy that is incredibly accurate at any distance, can kill you in a matter of seconds, always knows instinctively where you are and never stops firing. It's a shame because as a setpiece the dam was amazing, but that fight kind of ruined it for me.
Fight? What fight? On the dam, all I was able to do was jump in the water, tranq the ichy, swim up to the control tower, open the drain, and swim through. Engaging the chopper would have been suicide.

I agree completely about the crouch-jump. You couldn't even jump on a chair without crouching in BM. I like the concept of a crouch-jump, because it simulates pulling up your legs, which solves the problem of "Why the heck can't I jump over this chest-high wall?" that many FPS games have. Basically, crouch-jumping can get you onto any surface that's less than chest-high, but the fact that you can't otherwise jump higher than a foot makes it a necessity rather than a utility.

Flint
16-09-2012, 04:23 PM
Engaging the chopper would have been suicide.

The tau cannon took it down (well, sent it flying off) pretty easily and quickly.

kyrieee
16-09-2012, 05:05 PM
The jumping is by far the worst part of the mod. Almost every obstacle requires the crouch jump, which makes me wonder why they didn't scrap it entirely and just increase the height of your default jump. It doesn't help that running is now an additional button, which means some parts require you to press W + Shift + Space + Ctrl. That's not very comfortable. It's funny in a way, jumping puzzles are the one aspect of the original most people agree could be improved and yet they somehow managed to make it even worse.

And speaking of the marines, what bothers me about them is that they are absolutely relentless. In the original they couldn't move and shoot at the same time, so an easy strategy was throwing a grenade at them and then shooting them down while they were relocating. Here you are under continous fire as long as you're in their line of sight. I'm not even sure if they ever reload. This means that on hard difficulty the only real way of fighting them is standing around a corner and taking potshots at them. Not exactly a fun strategy.

Also the Apache fight on the dam was terrible. Here's an enemy that is incredibly accurate at any distance, can kill you in a matter of seconds, always knows instinctively where you are and never stops firing. It's a shame because as a setpiece the dam was amazing, but that fight kind of ruined it for me.

For the jumping, turn on 'always run' in the options. I guess I've played too much CS because I crouch jump instinctively. I don't see it as an issue really, it's not like it's hard, but on the other hand it doesn't add much either.

Agreed on the other two points though, the soldiers especially. When I go back and play HL1 I still find them fun to fight. They definitely weren't the walking turrets they are in this game. It's easily the biggest issue it has right now. Oh, and if you thought the Apache was annoying the first time then just wait...

Skull
16-09-2012, 06:15 PM
I am just doing Blast Pit now but my progress is being hampered. I've gone through that bit where your in the falling elevator and then you turn the generator on under the silo with the tentacle monster in it. I then go back to the silo and the signs on the wall inform me it hasn't got any power and when I run through the silo back to the control tower I can't launch the rockets.

What have I missed guys!? I can't go back down the elevator shaft as the ladder is in a unreachable place and their isn't many other places to go. I know I'm going to be kicking myself when I do it.

kyrieee
16-09-2012, 06:35 PM
Did you go to both the areas? In the main room with the tentacle beasts there are two exits leading to two different places. One on the very bottom floor and then one on the floor above it.

LTK
16-09-2012, 06:57 PM
To power up the generator, you need to flip switches located in rooms on both sides of the silo. In one room there is a scientist, in the other a bullsquid.

Skull
16-09-2012, 07:39 PM
Thanks for your help guys. I had missed the room with the oxygen/fuel. However, it still says the power isn't turned on. There is no way for me to get to the bottom of the elevator shaft now the lift is broken. I think a restart is in order...

Oak
16-09-2012, 07:49 PM
The only part I didn't really like so far is the audio. I miss the announcement system from Half-Life and the robotic voices of the HECU soldiers. And the new metallic clang the tentacles make just doesn't seem as terrifying.

The sound design is very good overall, but I still agree with these. Something Half-Life did really well - despite a couple of ill-considered moments of clear dialogue - was make your human enemies seem just as alien as the aliens. Black Mesa's soldiers lack that weird, inhuman quality. I don't fault the mod team for trying something different, but the result is a less interesting and less frightening enemy. I hope this isn't the case with the assassins; Opposing Force, in fact, made a similar mistake with them.

So, that, the crazy soldier accuracy, a few dialogue misfires, Eli's voice actor, crummy grenade physics. All problematic, but ultimately peccadillos. I am floored by how good this is, how much better it is than (probably) anyone really expected. You can tell why it took so very long. The game has been reimagined so thoughtfully and with such attention to detail; it hasn't once felt like they just slapped some fresh paint on a 14-year-old game. Interesting, too, how it's been informed by the original's own successors. Not just in things like physics puzzles and direct references to Kleiner and Eli, but aesthetically. There's a lot of Aperture Laboratories in the design here; spaces are darker, danker, bewilderingly huge and cold, moreso than in the original. They've captured that repurposed Cheyenne Mountain look spectacularly well.

And it's really scary. Is anyone else finding it really scary? I've just reached Power Up, which contains (for me) the tensest section in the game - descending into the basement to turn the generator on - and I'm pretty excited/nervous/terrified about going through it again.

Flint
16-09-2012, 07:56 PM
And it's really scary. Is anyone else finding it really scary? I've just reached Power Up, which contains (for me) the tensest section in the game - descending into the basement to turn the generator on - and I'm pretty excited/nervous/terrified about going through it again.
The new version of Questionable Ethics is rather tense with its creepy scientific experiment devices and dark rooms. Even the fact that you technically know everything that's coming doesn't take away the tension because they've changed the layout/design of some of the rooms to the point that it took a while for me to register which area it was.

Speaking of Questionable Ethics, the final battle of the level is easily one of my favourite parts of the mod. The mixture of panic and adrenaline, the combat and the music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MPBux1hG5k) are one excellent combination. It's generally a marvelous level - it's possibly my favourite level in the original and they made it even better.


Interesting, too, how it's been informed by the original's own successors. Not just in things like physics puzzles and direct references to Kleiner and Eli, but aesthetically. There's a lot of Aperture Laboratories in the design here; spaces are darker, danker, bewilderingly huge and cold, moreso than in the original.
The NPC interaction is really inspired by the sequels too. Pretty much every character seems to have a purpose and reason beyond "follow Gordon and die" now, with lot of originally superfluous characters now having a more involved and realistic role. And it's so very good for the atmosphere of the game.

kyrieee
16-09-2012, 08:44 PM
Thanks for your help guys. I had missed the room with the oxygen/fuel. However, it still says the power isn't turned on. There is no way for me to get to the bottom of the elevator shaft now the lift is broken. I think a restart is in order...

Pretty sure you can still use the ladder.
The toxic goo won't kill you right away either so you should be able to jump into that and survive the fall.

Skull
16-09-2012, 09:44 PM
Pretty sure you can still use the ladder.
The toxic goo won't kill you right away either so you should be able to jump into that and survive the fall.

Naw, the ladders on the other end of the shaft, it looks possible to jump too but there's some metal supports in your way. Plus jumping in the radiation won't kill you, but the ledge is to high to jump on when your swimming about in the goo. I replayed the level and found out there was two switches to press inside the generator room. You know you have done it right as the generator will start spinning around and on your way back two houndeyes and a vortigant attack. Stupid of me not to realise but I was surprised you couldn't return once you've climbed the ladder out.

CMaster
16-09-2012, 10:20 PM
Naw, the ladders on the other end of the shaft, it looks possible to jump too but there's some metal supports in your way. Plus jumping in the radiation won't kill you, but the ledge is to high to jump on when your swimming about in the goo. I replayed the level and found out there was two switches to press inside the generator room. You know you have done it right as the generator will start spinning around and on your way back two houndeyes and a vortigant attack. Stupid of me not to realise but I was surprised you couldn't return once you've climbed the ladder out.

You can just jump all the way down, land near the ladder and climb out quickly. Toxic goo is low damage + will cushion your fall (in fact, you are better off doing this the first time around, that way you can take the lift to the top when you are done.

unruly
16-09-2012, 10:43 PM
I fired up the mod last night and gave it a shot myself. I think the voice acting, in general, is pretty good for a mod and the whole thing looks great. I ran into some stuttering in certain areas during the tram ride, but other than that it's been pretty well gravy in terms of performance with everything on high. And with the way the game looks I can definitely see the truth in what I remember reading a few years back. The BM team was saying that one of the big hurdles they were running into was the SDK's object limits for maps, and every section of the tram ride was hitting that limit before it was even done.

Oh, and I've already walked outside the map once thanks to being able to pick up everything. During Unforseen Consequences(I think) there's a part where you see a scientist get pulled into a vent, so I grabbed barrels and stacked them until I could jump into the vent myself. The vent was short, contained a dead scientist, and an extremely bright light at the end. I was able to walk into the bright light, stand up, and that was about it. I didn't fall through the world, but I would have thought they would set the noplayerclip flag a little bit earlier in the vent than it actually was.

Carra
16-09-2012, 11:16 PM
Finished Office Complex and having a good time so far.

It's a fair bit harder than the average current generation game. The game isn't entirely linear, I had to do some backtracking to find an exit. And some of the puzzles took me fifteen minutes to solve.

Modern shooters must have become too easy, my brain shrank :)

DaftPunk
17-09-2012, 12:00 AM
I let my friend to play the mod from the beginning and it was funny watching him play,it was first HL game for him so he was picking chairs and all kind of object all the times,and hurling them at everybody haha :D

Harlander
17-09-2012, 12:12 AM
I've got near the end of Lambda Complex and my experience has been a nougat of delight sprinkled with the iron-hard razor-sharp almond chunks of frustration. That bit where you're outside on the cliff and can see the river and complex? Beautiful

God damn that fight at the end of Questionable Ethics was hard. Fighting the apache on the dam was super hard too because for some reason the Tau cannon had vanished.

It starts to get a bit glitchy in the Lambda reactor facility - when I got killed, I'd fall through the floor and drift into the void outside the map

MD!
17-09-2012, 12:13 AM
I do understand.

But there's a difference between wanting to replay an old game with shinier graphics and the absolute mad circlejerk the Black Mesa launch was.

Sure. I didn't share that level of excitement either.

I guess it's understandable though: HL was both mainstream-popular and loved like a cult favourite. Think about the number of people who will excitedly purchase an unchanged re-release of a favourite game they already own, when it shows up on Steam/GoG/whatever...

Not to mention HL was rather ugly (IMO, but in a lot of others' too), and Black Mesa is a genuinely impressive piece of work.

I guess when I think about my equivalent -- getting excited over various Deus Ex graphics mods -- there's probably a yearning to recapture the magic of playing a much-loved game for the first time. Re-experiencing it in a novel way might be the closest we can come to doing that. (I mean, in reality the closest we can come is by finding something new to love. But who can help looking backwards...)

soldant
17-09-2012, 01:22 AM
Finished Office Complex and having a good time so far.

It's a fair bit harder than the average current generation game. The game isn't entirely linear, I had to do some backtracking to find an exit. And some of the puzzles took me fifteen minutes to solve.

Modern shooters must have become too easy, my brain shrank :)
Actually I think it's just poor design choice in some cases. I've played HL back to front more times than I could count, and even then there were times when I got lost and wandered around looking for something to trigger. An early example is when you have to release these two valves (heh) to turn off a freezing cold pipe or something. I walked past them 20 times before I realised that I could actually use them. Some important props/buttons etc blend into the world far too well, which is smart from a 'realism' perspective but incredibly frustrating from a gameplay perspective.

SanguineAngel
17-09-2012, 09:42 AM
maybe it's just me but I think that's fine, having the important items blend in so well. If they are highlighted then it's not a puzzle - it's the game telling you what to do.

The smart design is in making the puzzle itself give the information you need. Such as locating those valves being a logical step. "Wow I see I need to turn off the gas. Let me follow these pipes back". Then when you work it out you can actually feel like you achieved something. Rather then being led by the nose.

coldvvvave
17-09-2012, 09:43 AM
Its funny how even with all the changes I managed to get stuck exactly at the same place in both original and BM. That bit in Office Complex when there is a guard and you find revolver there( wasn't there a shotgun in the original game?), you have to go way back after finding this place and every time I played HL I tried to explore that small place more because I thought there was an exit somewhere.

What I really didn't like so far is the end of fight against Tentacle. In the original game you had to descend into the pit and it felt like you are descending into the remains of the tentacle itself, there were biomass everywhere almost liek a flesh tunnel in System Shock 2, I know that don't really make sence( because tunnel just ends and there is a normal area there) but damn it felt weird, sad it was removed.

soldant
17-09-2012, 10:06 AM
maybe it's just me but I think that's fine, having the important items blend in so well. If they are highlighted then it's not a puzzle - it's the game telling you what to do.
But they blend in too well with the environment in some cases. Remember it's a game, not real life - you have to make some concessions otherwise the player ends up with no idea what they can or can't touch. Part of that comes with the change in texture definition - in the original things that were useless tended to have lower-res textures and no lighting. Now they've made everything light up.

It's not so much the game telling you what to do but acknowledging that the player doesn't necessarily know the environment or what they can or can't interact with. Following pipes back is a good example of how to do it right. Arbitrary red wheel, the last 20 or so you couldn't use, doesn't cut it. Valve carefully use this in their games so that they don't stick out (like a glowing PRESS THIS HERE feature in CoD or Biosock for example) but they aren't ambiguous.



Also the jumping puzzles suck, just wanted to reiterate that.

LTK
17-09-2012, 12:45 PM
What's important to remember is that if a valve is red, it can be turned. All the other valves can't.

Lambchops
17-09-2012, 01:40 PM
I'm going to hold off this until when I play the entire Half Life trilogy.

Hey guys, why are you laughing?

soldant
17-09-2012, 01:53 PM
What's important to remember is that if a valve is red, it can be turned. All the other valves can't.
Eventually I learned that, but the overuse of valves initially didn't make that obvious to me. On the plus side though they took another leaf out of Doom 3's book and increased general level clutter so that things look a lot better. HL2 by comparison is mostly flat blocks with occasional clutter, BM's level design actually looks like a real place.

popej
17-09-2012, 03:09 PM
First of all my machine is no beast but it's definitely no slouch either.
I7 920 at 3.5ghz
Radeon 7850
6GB fast ram that I can't remember the make & model of
Reasonable 1TB HDD
(Fully capable of trouncing the Source engine with everything on in other words)

I'm getting severe performance issues after the tentacle fight. It is intermittent and sometimes it's smooth as a babies bum. Toning down the graphical settings doesn't seem to have any real effect either! I think I've tried everything, especially turning off the usual suspects (shader, shadows, AA and AF) but none has any noticeable effect.

Is this simply what I have to live with given the fact that it's an unoptimised mod, or is there some performance bottleneck somewhere?

Looking at the official forums I'm definitely not the only one having these problems.

Thanks folks.

EDIT: Ok, reading back through some older posts, it seems some are playing at an acceptable level with 5 year old machines. Clearly there's a bottle neck somewhere. Paint in the arse!

coldvvvave
17-09-2012, 03:47 PM
I had nasty stuttering while fighting HECU soldiers and turrets, lowering settings for Shaders fixed that.

Lukasz
17-09-2012, 04:10 PM
that bit in Office Complex when there is a guard and you find revolver there( wasn't there a shotgun in the original game?),
didn't play BM
In HL1 you find revolver for the first time after destroying Tentacle in rocket test chamber. In Office complex behind gates on a green chest... there was a shotgun.

kyrieee
17-09-2012, 04:35 PM
didn't play BM
In HL1 you find revolver for the first time after destroying Tentacle in rocket test chamber. In Office complex behind gates on a green chest... there was a shotgun.

Yeah they changed the order of that.
Now you get the shotgun right at the end of "We've got Hostiles" after you come out of the vent and into the control room.

They still left some revolver ammo at the bottom of that tentacle monster pit though.

CuriousOrange
17-09-2012, 05:37 PM
Eventually I learned that, but the overuse of valves initially didn't make that obvious to me. On the plus side though they took another leaf out of Doom 3's book and increased general level clutter so that things look a lot better. HL2 by comparison is mostly flat blocks with occasional clutter, BM's level design actually looks like a real place.

That's weird because I find real life is actually quite clean and blocky. Buildings, walls and rooms are generally squares or rectangles. Games have to appear 'more real than real' by over cluttering and having angular walls and stuff.

As for items blending in, I'm not sure what you're on about regarding the original Half Life. They were all quite clearly marked, using primary colours and clever lighting to lead you on. But I suppose obvious to one person is obtuse to another. As it is, I'm turning some pipes to make whatever happen, but if it was more obvious it just becomes 'holding E to get to the next bit'.

Part of the design of Half Life is being lost in a facility (obv), you are meant to have to look around and investigate at times. It's very different from the modern shooters desire to constantly push forward and constantly be exciting until your brain explodes.

Also, jumping puzzles were fantastic up until Xen. At which point they did become almost unbearable. But up until that point I love it. When I think of Half Life, I think of crowbarring headcrabs in vents, and leaping between precariously positioned piping.

Nalano
17-09-2012, 08:31 PM
That's weird because I find real life is actually quite clean and blocky. Buildings, walls and rooms are generally squares or rectangles. Games have to appear 'more real than real' by over cluttering and having angular walls and stuff.

That's weird because to me, nothing is every as clean and blocky as all that. In fact, I've never seen a game come close to the general clutter any lived-in environment - public or private - tends to accumulate.

DaftPunk
17-09-2012, 08:55 PM
Never had any stuttering issues,i play on low lool

The First Door
17-09-2012, 10:08 PM
An early example is when you have to release these two valves (heh) to turn off a freezing cold pipe or something. I walked past them 20 times before I realised that I could actually use them.

I quite liked that bit, but I get where you are coming from as I walked past them a few times as well. After I found it though, I found I was blaming myself and not the game. They were, in hindsight, highlighted with signs. I think part of the problem is many modern shooters are so obsessed with highlighting things and making them shiny I tend to ignore everything else.

I had a silly moment in Blast Pit the first time I came across the airlocks which work automatically. I genuinely jumped in surprise before noticing the huge signs which told me the doors were automatic.

LTK
17-09-2012, 10:19 PM
If it makes you feel any better, there are many people in the real world who lack the seemingly basic ability to read signs just as much.

The First Door
17-09-2012, 10:25 PM
Indeed, I've found I'm much better reading real signs! Although to be fair, in real life I'm not distracted worrying about head crabs trying to eat my face quite as much.

Anyway, perhaps if we could give all signs that special 'I'm important' shimmer from games it would help?

DaftPunk
17-09-2012, 10:47 PM
Overall guys,do you think it was worth waiting for this mod,i think the answer is big yes :D

CommunistHamster
17-09-2012, 11:15 PM
I just don't know what to do now I've finished it.

Tres
17-09-2012, 11:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUfiMG3Hi-M&feature=plcp

Sidestory: I managed to get blocked by the channel owner. That guy already has some serious issues as he can't take anything less than fanatical nodding and apparently starts banning viewers when they disagree.

LTK
17-09-2012, 11:27 PM
Overall guys,do you think it was worth waiting for this mod,i think the answer is big yes :D
What kind of a question is that? No sane person would say "Welp, this game is a year late, this is inexcusable and I'm never going to play it." Even if it came out in 2013 I'd still go play it. Hell, if the remainder of the game comes out in 2015, you can bet your ass I'm going to play it from start to finish again then.

Was it Miyamoto who said this? "A delayed game is eventually good, a bad game is bad forever." So by virtue of being delayed, something becomes worth waiting for.

What you need to ask is A. is this better than the original, and B. is this worth paying for?

Also, does anyone else remember the bit in the original where you crawl into a pipe, and a marine chucks a grenade in there and closes the hatch? I never saw that in BM.

kyrieee
18-09-2012, 12:16 AM
What you need to ask is A. is this better than the original, and B. is this worth paying for?

A) No, mainly because of the AI. Some people say the visuals are a bit dated but I think it looks spectacular, and the environments are more believable than those seen in a lot of modern games.

B) Yes, I think so.


Also, does anyone else remember the bit in the original where you crawl into a pipe, and a marine chucks a grenade in there and closes the hatch? I never saw that in BM.

That's at the end of Surface Tension in HL1, but the last 10 minutes or so were cut. Supposedly the guy(s?) working on that level quit the project and they decided to leave that out. That's what I heard anyway.


Best level in the game has to be Questionable Ethics. Just the right mix of slight alterations while being faithful to the original game, and the fight at the end is great. It looks damn pretty too.

TheDave
18-09-2012, 02:11 AM
I think the mod is fairly close to being as good as the original, as for AI: I haven't seen the grunts use grenades to flush me out yet.

I'd welcome a few changes- as I wouldn't want to play just half-life with better graphics and physics. Its nice to experience hl in a different way.

Things I particularly like: the individual personalities of the NPCs and their dialogue, the difficulty of the mod because at least for me it encourages a more cautious approach, but then again I think you should be able to head shot the grunts.

Love the attention to detail, notices, posters what have you- I'd like to play through it again because I kind of got into the zone in some parts and didn't pay so much attention to the environment.
Also: being able to use undeployed turrets would be cool.

Things I didn't like, the jump height saw me reload quite a few times, the crowbar swing feels a bit slow but then again I guess it has weight, rapidly swinging your crowbar in the original hl was a bit overkill.

soldant
18-09-2012, 03:06 AM
That's weird because I find real life is actually quite clean and blocky.
Um... no, sorry. That's not what I was saying. I'm talking from a level designer perspective. Example: my desk right now has a bunch of stuff on it and my house has a bunch of stuff in it. A typical room in HL2 consists of the walls with a desk and a chair, and little else. It relies mostly on the textures to make it look good. The vast majority of the Citadel for example is entirely flat with the occasional (apparently pointless) console tossed in for decoration. A control room has one really big console. It rarely looks like anybody actually does anything there. In HL2 only set piece areas have any appreciable major clutter (like Kleiner's Lab) while the rest are sparse and rely on the textures.

A Doom 3 map on the other hand had a lot of clutter items and models as opposed to relying on the texture work to carry the map design. Office spaces have plenty of desks with chairs and computers, binders and papers and what-not, consoles with cabling and piping etc. It goes a long way to making the room look like it actually has a real purpose, as opposed to what it really is - another place to pick up a medkit or fight an Imp. D3 also had a lot more detail on the walls (some walls were models as opposed to BSP blocks) but in cases where a room really is just 4 flat walls with 2 more for the floor and ceiling (which is what a room really is) id Software's mappers understood how to use clutter to make the room look like it had a purpose.

Pull apart a HL2 map and a D3 map and you'll notice there's a lot more detail packed into a D3 map than a HL2 map. BM follows the former in that areas feel like they have a purpose thanks to the items ("clutter") placed in them. It's the use of clutter that makes the room look like an actual room. It's the difference between "here's a few blocks presented by our BSP compiler" and "Here's a storeroom/office space."


As for items blending in, I'm not sure what you're on about regarding the original Half Life. They were all quite clearly marked, using primary colours and clever lighting to lead you on.
I wasn't complaining about the original HL, I was pointing out something in BM. In HL everything stood out, I noted that.


Also, jumping puzzles were fantastic up until Xen.
Again the jumping puzzles in BM (forget HL, I'm commenting on BM though IMO they were weak in HL as well) are made worse by the physics and a strange insistence to make surfaces slippery.


I think the mod is fairly close to being as good as the original, as for AI: I haven't seen the grunts use grenades to flush me out yet.
I've had them throw grenades but they're incredibly inept at it. I hope it's a bug, because none of them have even come close to being a concern. Their super-accurate SMGs and sixth sense threat recognition are far worse, it's driving me batshit crazy.

Nalano
18-09-2012, 05:51 AM
Sidestory: I managed to get blocked by the channel owner. That guy already has some serious issues as he can't take anything less than fanatical nodding and apparently starts banning viewers when they disagree.

I can't watch more than thirty seconds of that vid. Is the guy on speed? Is that how people play FPSs? Like coked-up bunnies? With the sound off it looks like somebody's having an epileptic fit while mashing their keyboard.

c-Row
18-09-2012, 07:54 AM
I quite liked that bit, but I get where you are coming from as I walked past them a few times as well. After I found it though, I found I was blaming myself and not the game. They were, in hindsight, highlighted with signs. I think part of the problem is many modern shooters are so obsessed with highlighting things and making them shiny I tend to ignore everything else.

One problem I encountered was that pretty early in BM (after backtracking to the lobby, but before the bit where you flood the lower canals to circumvent the bars) I came across two valves that could be turned, so I did as my gamer reflex told me, but the game somehow failed to communicate to me what they were actually good for.



And it's really scary. Is anyone else finding it really scary? I've just reached Power Up, which contains (for me) the tensest section in the game - descending into the basement to turn the generator on - and I'm pretty excited/nervous/terrified about going through it again.

Again, early in the game - in the original, you only heard the zombies when they were actually around. In BM's "Unforseen Consequences" it felt like they were hiding behind the walls as you could hear them all the time. Small change, huge effect.

Henke
18-09-2012, 08:06 AM
I can't watch more than thirty seconds of that vid. Is the guy on speed? Is that how people play FPSs? Like coked-up bunnies? With the sound off it looks like somebody's having an epileptic fit while mashing their keyboard.
It says "Abridged Version" right there in the title. The video has clearly been edited down to just focus on the actiony bits and places where stuff happens.

JackShandy
18-09-2012, 10:50 AM
Unfortunately, it turns out I just don't like half life. Black Mesa is just a constantly frustrating experience for me. Before I figured out that crouch jump makes you jump higher I spent hours stacking barrels to get up the jumping puzzles. Now that I've mastered it, the jumping is just a constant irritation. It's often impossible to defeat obstacles without taking damage (Machine-gun enemies, mandatory falls, underwater sections that force you to drown for several seconds). The opening sequence has about 4 loading screens. I know it's vaguely interactive, but really it feels like a cut scene that pauses every few minutes. There's this constant sense of the game dragging me down.

It's often impossible to tell where you're going and why. Not just that you can't tell what you should do to progress, but also that you can't tell why gordon's decided to go this way. A random guard told me to fire off a satellite, so I did that - but what's my motivation for dragging myself through these toxic pits? Where am I going now?

Lambchops
18-09-2012, 11:25 AM
Played through most of the office complex last night, rather enjoyed it. Did find myself wondering why there were so many flares lying around but give me a zombie to set aflame and I soon stop worrying!

The First Door
18-09-2012, 11:34 AM
It's often impossible to defeat obstacles without taking damage (Machine-gun enemies, mandatory falls, underwater sections that force you to drown for several seconds).

So far at least (I've just finished Blast Pit) there has always been ways to avoid the damage if you look around before carrying on. The machine guns in Office Complex for example either have alternate routes you can take to disable them, or you can use boxes to edge your way towards them and rely on the fact they take a few seconds to spin up when disabled.

soldant
18-09-2012, 12:03 PM
It's often impossible to defeat obstacles without taking damage (Machine-gun enemies, mandatory falls, underwater sections that force you to drown for several seconds).
There are some ways around it, but really that's a relic of the previous game. General damage seems ramped up in BM; at times it actually feels a little harder than the original because you can't exploit flaws in the physics engine. The ladders are terrible and were responsible for most of my long drops... but that's a Source limitation, it's always had terrible ladders. I've never been forced to drown for several seconds though, if you look around you can find a place to stick your head up for a few seconds.


The opening sequence has about 4 loading screens.
That's a Source engine limitation and something Valve implemented to give a sense of continuity to gameplay, as opposed to "Your map ends now, next section!" in other games. But that said the Source engine actually doesn't support massive, detailed environments - there's always a compromise somewhere. Given the level of detail in a typical BM map, they've broken it up a bit more for performance reasons.

Nalano
18-09-2012, 01:09 PM
It says "Abridged Version" right there in the title. The video has clearly been edited down to just focus on the actiony bits and places where stuff happens.

It's not even that it's an abridged version. Imagine someone bobbing their head, juking back and forth for no reason, shooting walls and schizophrenically whacking things with a crowbar like on the video. You'd think that man was insane. Even when the guy's effectively doing nothing at all, he looks like he's trying to burn off an eightball's worth of energy.

fiddlesticks
18-09-2012, 02:07 PM
Agreed on the other two points though, the soldiers especially. When I go back and play HL1 I still find them fun to fight. They definitely weren't the walking turrets they are in this game. It's easily the biggest issue it has right now. Oh, and if you thought the Apache was annoying the first time then just wait...
No kidding. That second fight was annoying, but it was downright easy compared to the Osprey section with the infinitely respawning soldiers. And in turn they cut out some of the most memorable aspects of the level. Overall, "Surface Tension" is definitely my least liked part of the game so far. Which is a shame, because it was my favourite level in the original.

Ah well, "Forget about Freeman" and "Lambda Complex" have very little marine presence, so I'm expecting the gameplay to get a bit better again.



It's not even that it's an abridged version. Imagine someone bobbing their head, juking back and forth for no reason, shooting walls and schizophrenically whacking things with a crowbar like on the video. You'd think that man was insane. Even when the guy's effectively doing nothing at all, he looks like he's trying to burn off an eightball's worth of energy.
To be fair, that's pretty much how I play games.

kyrieee
18-09-2012, 02:36 PM
On a livestream one of the developers said that the reason they cut the last 10 minutes of Surface Tension was because the developer who was working on that part quit and for some reason completing the level wasn't an option (drama? who knows), so they'd have to start it from scratch and decided they'd rather get the game out.

Regarding the HECU soldiers, it's not just their accuracy that's a problem it's that they don't do anything but fire at you. In HL1 the grunts would move around much more and not just pin you down in a corner. In BMS if you stick your head out you're taking fire from three guys. It's like reverse whac-a-mole. They're just boring enemies at that point. The HL1 guys were fun to fight because of the things they did that weren't shooting at you. That's what gave them character.

TheDave
18-09-2012, 03:33 PM
No kidding. That second fight was annoying, but it was downright easy compared to the Osprey section with the infinitely respawning soldiers.

The section with the first apache I found worse than the part with the osprey tbh, how many rockets did it take to bring it down? I can't remember, 10 or so rockets? less than the tank that comes later- I thought they could have redesigned that part, perhaps have you running along the cliff path with the helicopter in pursuit before you get the rocket launcher and then have the apache take less hits to take down.

Pace
18-09-2012, 04:30 PM
Surface Tension in general is extremely frustratingly hard. (the osprey section was the worst for me.) It seems odd because it's so different than the rest of the game, which really isn't too hard. Or, at least up to that point, I haven't finished the last 2 levels yet. (I hope it doesn't stay so hard?)
And I'll agree that the helicopter taking 4x as many rockets as a tank just isn't right.

DaftPunk
18-09-2012, 10:12 PM
Playing this i realized how i really want next HL game :(

ado
18-09-2012, 10:39 PM
It's not even that it's an abridged version. Imagine someone bobbing their head, juking back and forth for no reason, shooting walls and schizophrenically whacking things with a crowbar like on the video. You'd think that man was insane. Even when the guy's effectively doing nothing at all, he looks like he's trying to burn off an eightball's worth of energy.

I used to play FPS games like that, just brain off and run; bouncing off the walls like that guy in the video when I'm stuck. And to be fair it is the superior method of play in certain online FPS games, just running on instinct. It's very much acting before thinking.

Eventually I grew out of it, and for the life of me I can't remember what game actually made me stop, think, then act for the 1st time. I think it was Thief, but I can't be sure. And I've played FPS games like that ever since, it's much more enjoyable and way less stressful IMO.

CoRuJa
18-09-2012, 11:19 PM
What are you guys complaining about BM's HECU Marine? I can agree that they don't seem to flush you out often with grenades like they did in HL1 and do nothing but shoot you, but asking the devs to reduce their combat effectiveness is just stupid.

You're not playing HL2, neither fighting dumbed-down Combine troops. You're playing an almost perfect HL1 remake (BM has it's issues, we all know) and fighting a well-trained military force, they're just a little more easier to kill but more aggressive than in HL1.

There's the difficulty menu for a reason, so you can tone it down by yourself, or play & think better the next time you confront them.

Carra
19-09-2012, 12:29 AM
I've just reached a room full of dynamite. Damn, that part is frustrating. I'm giving up for today or I'll be stressed out completely.

It's been a while since I've hit my save button *every fifteen seconds* in a game. Still, I'm having a blast.

soldant
19-09-2012, 01:40 AM
What are you guys complaining about BM's HECU Marine?
Because as someone else said they're just walking turrets. The Combine soldiers weren't particularly difficult, I'll grant you that, but they at least displayed better behaviour than these guys. They rarely use grenades, they frequently just stand there using their SMGs to effectively snipe at you, and then occasionally run off somewhere pointless for no apparent reason. It's like the BM team just ramped up their damage and accuracy to compensate for the fact that they do nothing special.

The HECU in HL1 actually display a similar sort of behaviour in part, but they moved around a bit more and were more balanced. BM seems to just flood some areas with them for the hell of it.

GunnerMcCaffrey
19-09-2012, 02:04 AM
You're playing an almost perfect HL1 remake (BM has it's issues, we all know) and fighting a well-trained military force, they're just a little more easier to kill but more aggressive than in HL1.

Even as someone who finds the complaints on the BM forums a bit silly, I have to agree that the marines are considerably tougher than in the original. Instant pinpoint accuracy at hundreds of metres when I'm behind a girder? Come on. They're, like, bulletmancers. It definitely kills immersion.

I still mostly like it, though. Forces me to be strategic. I realized rather quickly that shooting centre mass is nigh pointless - and that's as it should be, since of course they'd be heavily armoured - so I started going for the legs. The first time I was even rewarded with an "Argh, my legs," which felt like an approving nod from the developers sent to the future.

Frags and magnum headshots work too. Definitely adds to the tension, saving precious magnum rounds for future marine battles.

But the balancing is definitely off. (Don't even get me going about the Vorts.)

SirKicksalot
19-09-2012, 02:12 AM
The platforming is absolutely disgusting. Gordon suspiciously slides on every surface. I don't like the movement at all. Crouch jumping was always shit, I'm glad modern games don't feature it.
45 minutes was enough. Good thing my hype died in 2007.

TheDave
19-09-2012, 03:42 AM
You wouldn't have to ask the devs to reduce their combat effectiveness had they been difficult on another level besides their damage and health, they're compensating- but a few tweaks would be nice so that 'medium' difficulty is more like what it describes.

I agree though, the mod is pretty damn good, the voice acting, individual characterization of npcs, architecture etc- I just completed it and I feel like i've nitpicked to a degree, but these are still issues with the game. It doesn't diminish what IS good about BM.

The grunts were difficult but I adapted, It was the Apache fight that I found annoying, because I couldn't really do much in that situation.

kyrieee
19-09-2012, 12:50 PM
What are you guys complaining about BM's HECU Marine? I can agree that they don't seem to flush you out often with grenades like they did in HL1 and do nothing but shoot you, but asking the devs to reduce their combat effectiveness is just stupid.

You're not playing HL2, neither fighting dumbed-down Combine troops. You're playing an almost perfect HL1 remake (BM has it's issues, we all know) and fighting a well-trained military force, they're just a little more easier to kill but more aggressive than in HL1.

There's the difficulty menu for a reason, so you can tone it down by yourself, or play & think better the next time you confront them.

I decided to record a comparison to show the difference in how they behave. The HL1 soldiers are just way more fun to fight because of how they move around. It makes the fights more dynamic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBvgRJlNOf0

Brit89
19-09-2012, 02:40 PM
I wonder how long till they release the Xen levels. I haven't even gotten to the Lamba Core yet.

CuriousOrange
19-09-2012, 03:06 PM
Um... no, sorry. That's not what I was saying. I'm talking from a level designer perspective. Example: my desk right now has a bunch of stuff on it and my house has a bunch of stuff in it. A typical room in HL2 consists of the walls with a desk and a chair, and little else. It relies mostly on the textures to make it look good. The vast majority of the Citadel for example is entirely flat with the occasional (apparently pointless) console tossed in for decoration. A control room has one really big console. It rarely looks like anybody actually does anything there. In HL2 only set piece areas have any appreciable major clutter (like Kleiner's Lab) while the rest are sparse and rely on the textures.


Fair enough bout the other stuff.

But as for the clutter, that's not really true. In fact I would say one of HL2s big innovations at the time was massive amounts of physics clutter. Bottles you can break, takeaway boxes. It may be a little sparse compared with modern games, but at the time it was pretty mindblowing.

The Citadel is fantastic looking too, of course it's all clean, and unnatural looking. It's the headquarters of inter-dimensional monsters. Or something.

And I still disagree about the platforming. I think it pulls it off very well. There are definitely quite a few problems in the game to do with a few ledges being too narrow and a bit frustrating to climb into. But the basic design is fantastic, and those are clearly mistakes rather than design choices imo.

Alex Bakke
19-09-2012, 03:30 PM
I decided to record a comparison to show the difference in how they behave. The HL1 soldiers are just way more fun to fight because of how they move around. It makes the fights more dynamic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBvgRJlNOf0

I've so far only seen one instance of a flanking marine in Black Mesa. Granted I could have been an idiot and just walked right past him.

Funny story though. I had read so much about the marines in BM not flanking, I just charged on ahead. Jumped out of my skin when one actually appeared behind me :D

Koobazaur
19-09-2012, 08:16 PM
It's not even that it's an abridged version. Imagine someone bobbing their head, juking back and forth for no reason, shooting walls and schizophrenically whacking things with a crowbar like on the video. You'd think that man was insane. Even when the guy's effectively doing nothing at all, he looks like he's trying to burn off an eightball's worth of energy.

You do realize this is a guy who does ENTERTAINMENT let's play, and hence exaggerates his actions and comments on them for the sake of amusing the audience, right?

Nalano
19-09-2012, 08:22 PM
You do realize this is a guy who does ENTERTAINMENT let's play, and hence exaggerates his actions and comments on them for the sake of amusing the audience, right?

Gallagher ain't that spastic.

Nor Robin Williams and he's actually done​ coke.

byteCrunch
19-09-2012, 08:43 PM
Just beat Black Mesa on hard, a good bit tougher then I remember but that could just be me being a bit out of practice when it comes to FPS, otherwise had a throughly good time, even now the general design of the game still holds up pretty well, even if there are a couple of frustating moments of confusion.

That and the final fight which completely tanked my framerate to <15 FPS, in a Source-engine game? Madness.

ado
19-09-2012, 11:02 PM
You do realize this is a guy who does ENTERTAINMENT let's play, and hence exaggerates his actions and comments on them for the sake of amusing the audience, right?

No, people actually play like that. Acting before thinking like I said in my last post.

Koobazaur
19-09-2012, 11:04 PM
Gallagher ain't that spastic.

Nor Robin Williams and he's actually done​ coke.

Dane Cook is.

What's your point? Different people have different ideas of what is entertaining / amusing. You are clearly not in this guy's target audience, no problem with that.

DaftPunk
19-09-2012, 11:31 PM
Someone should make comparison between HL 1 and BM graphics,that would be nice to see. Once i did something similar with Far Cry and Crysis :p

soldant
20-09-2012, 01:00 AM
But as for the clutter, that's not really true. In fact I would say one of HL2s big innovations at the time was massive amounts of physics clutter. Bottles you can break, takeaway boxes. It may be a little sparse compared with modern games, but at the time it was pretty mindblowing.
It's artfully done only in set pieces. I used to do mapping for both Doom 3 and HL2, and I learned mostly by pulling apart the original maps. Doom 3's maps have a lot more detail and clutter than HL2 maps. The physprops, breaking bottles, etc, they're only ever placed in specific environments to show off that environment. Start to place too many, particularly if they interact, and you get performance issues. You can see that in GMod from time to time, particularly if someone tries to cram a lot of detail in the map.

I'm not saying that Valve's implementation of clutter was bad or somehow wrong, but in terms of detail a typical D3 map has a lot more than a HL2 map. HL2 maps tend to be sparsely populated and rely mostly on the BSP structure with big, square blocks and eye-catching textures, along with focusing your attention on the characters. It's not the wrong approach and it's not bad by any means, but it's just how Valve make their maps. Pull apart some maps and you'll notice the difference. Or just play through a D3/HL2 map.


And I still disagree about the platforming.
You slip and slide everywhere. You might just be in the minority here, because few others like it.

GunnerMcCaffrey
20-09-2012, 02:47 AM
Chiming in for the minority here: after the artless soul-fucking that is HL1 platforming, BM's jumping sections are a gentle embrace through silk pajamas.

Nalano
20-09-2012, 05:30 AM
Dane Cook

And here is where you lost this argument. :D

MD!
20-09-2012, 08:04 AM
I liked the platforming bits in Half-Life.

Just wanted to chime in, because "first-person platforming sucks" seems to have become almost a truism. (Tell ithat to the defrag community.)

JackShandy
20-09-2012, 09:02 AM
I liked the platforming bits in Half-Life.

It's nice to know your opinion, internet person, but why? What do you like about them?

Outright Villainy
20-09-2012, 11:26 AM
Been playing a fair bit so far (up to around the bit where you've lost your guns and are on a big conveyor belt maze) and so far I'm really enjoying it. I missed out on HL1 the first time, but this is definitely a good way to experience it. The original just felt too old when I tried playing it last year. Anyway, I'm doing Hard mode, and it's nice to have a shooter that actually feels challenging, without getting too ridiculous. The marines will heavily punish any mistakes. I really like that, if you don't try to actively position yourself well to gain advantage you'll get mangled, and it still feels fair about it. Too often I see shooters thinking high difficulty just means spamming grenades, whereas in this they flank and retreat, I've even seen a guy or two camping until I walked past with my back turned so they could get the drop on me. The fights are dynamic, which is what I enjoy the most, and each one feels legitimately threatening, without being overwhelmingly frustrating.

Things I don't like: Crouch jumping for every jump. The default jump is completely useless, you wouldn't scale 2 foot with it. There's a few bugs so far too. Nothing too major, but I'm seeing a bit of texture transparency, or scripted events break so I'd have to reload, that kind of thing. The performance chugs in some parts too; it's source so it's not too bad on a powerful rig, but on a laptop or lower end machines it'd be very annoying considering how well other source games run. (barring tf2) The smg is also pretty crap, seems to me if you run out of magnum ammo against the marines then you're boned if you've no way to close the distance. It also seems impossible to dodge the vortigaunts' blasts too, even at full perpendicular sprint, so cheesing cover or shotgun rushing them seems to be the only valid tactic. Same goes for the acid spitters to a lesser extent.

Henke
20-09-2012, 12:05 PM
I missed out on HL1 the first time, but this is definitely a good way to experience it.

I was starting to think I was the only one! :D

Finished BM the other day, hoping the team will release the final part soon. I wanna know how the story ends!

kyrieee
20-09-2012, 12:08 PM
The SMG is actually really good, it's way better than it was in HL1.
It's fine at medium range too, go for headshots and fire in short bursts.

MD!
20-09-2012, 12:52 PM
It's nice to know your opinion, internet person, but why? What do you like about them?

They were fun. 8-)

Seriously, I don't think there's much point trying to argue a point here. I won't convince anyone else to enjoy them, and nobody will convince me that I didn't, and I don't think there's a particularly interesting discussion to be had around trying to unpack why I enjoyed them.

If you want me to have a go, though, I guess it was the combination of a little bit of challenge and a sort of explorey feeling? Like you were finding your own illicit route through the level or something, even when it was transparently linear. As far as I can remember the physics and controls were nice and tight, and any little movement challenge can be fun when those conditions are met.

edit: I guess I should ask the same question: what was wrong with them? I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here, I'm really not sure why they seem to be almost universally disliked.

The First Door
20-09-2012, 02:41 PM
You might just be in the minority here, because few others like it.

I'm tired of this being repeatedly said. Just because some people don't like it doesn't mean that people who like it are a minority. Even if they are, it also doesn't mean that their shouldn't be games catering to them. In this case it seems particularly silly to complain about a remake of HL having jumping puzzles in it as the original was full of them!


If you want me to have a go, though, I guess it was the combination of a little bit of challenge and a sort of explorey feeling? Like you were finding your own illicit route through the level or something, even when it was transparently linear.

I completely agree with you on this point. As I said on an earlier page it actually felt like you are working you way through machinery and going places you aren't supposed to go. For me, it is just more interesting than following a NPC character or an obviously highlighted route.

Alex Bakke
20-09-2012, 02:45 PM
I think that a successful jumping puzzle is one that focuses on the 'puzzle' aspect, and not jumping. I'd love puzzles where you'd be like "Ok, hmm, I need to get over there but there are several routes I can take. Which would be safest? Are there any obstacles I'm missing?" etc.

Not like in Black Mesa where it's "Oh dear, you failed to grasp the terrible jumping mechanics for the 20th time, please try again"

soldant
20-09-2012, 02:46 PM
I'm tired of this being repeatedly said. Just because some people don't like it doesn't mean that people who like it are a minority. Even if they are, it also doesn't mean that their shouldn't be games catering to them. In this case it seems particularly silly to complain about a remake of HL having jumping puzzles in it as the original was full of them!
The jumping puzzles in HL were a bit of a weak point... particularly Xen. But the physics engine did at least let you exploit it so that they weren't quite so bad. In BM they've made it worse by having so many slippery surfaces. The fact that the original had jumping puzzles doesn't mean that they had to be copied exactly for the reimaging. If anything they probably made some of them worse by demanding crouch jumping on more of them.

Regarding the 'minority' part, general reactions to HL's jumping puzzles, and Xen as a result, are negative. Because they're annoying. You might notice that I never said that there shouldn't be games catering to jumping puzzles. But it was a weakness in the original and BM has made it worse in some places.

LTK
20-09-2012, 02:55 PM
One other thing I noticed is that there were very few instances where I actually had the opportunity to use some of the alternate weapons, like the wall mines and snarks. Because BM's combat is much more fast-paced and frantic, you can't really plan out your fights; you just need to shoot at whatever's in front of you. I was always too busy getting shot at to plant wall mines in clever spots, and the one time I tried to snark a vort (like some bizarre slang) all the little bastards simply turned on me instead.

Although I have to admit that dropping a satchel charge in the middle of a pack of sleeping houndeyes is pretty cool. You don't wake sleeping houndeyes, you blow 'em up. Props to them for coming up with that.

Serenegoose
20-09-2012, 03:01 PM
One other thing I noticed is that there were very few instances where I actually had the opportunity to use some of the alternate weapons, like the wall mines and snarks. Because BM's combat is much more fast-paced and frantic, you can't really plan out your fights; you just need to shoot at whatever's in front of you. I was always too busy getting shot at to plant wall mines in clever spots, and the one time I tried to snark a vort (like some bizarre slang) all the little bastards simply turned on me instead.

Although I have to admit that dropping a satchel charge in the middle of a pack of sleeping houndeyes is pretty cool. You don't wake sleeping houndeyes, you blow 'em up. Props to them for coming up with that.

Contrariwise, I've used the satchel charges and wall mines far more than I ever did in HL1, since I could never see any opportunity for using them where grenades/bullets wouldn't work better. Because the marines in BM are so brutal (and thick) however, I frequently find myself trapping chokepoints and luring them back for a kill.