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Blackcompany
23-09-2012, 07:09 PM
I know we have a thread for the UI, and another for the Gore. I was hoping for some discussion of the game itself, however. So lets get started:

Borderlands 2 is an excellent game. Its a huge improvement over the first one in many - but not all - categories. There are some minor issues, and I wish to get the bad out of the way first:

-The UI. Its floaty and off to the side, now. Almost like you are looking at it from an angle, which bothers me for some reason. Also, its messy. Comparing items you might buy with equipped items is cumbersome. In general moving through the UI could be improved. I would even prefer the UI from BL1 to this, to be honest.

-Too many suicide enemies. This is a shooter. You have one basic melee strike. Yet 50% of the enemies you will fight will insist on rushing you as fast as possible. Some will explode suicide-bomber style and others will just pound you. Regardless of their purpose there are simply too many melee/suicide rushers in this game, period, and it gets annoying at times.

-The Return of the Bullet Sponges. Because the difference between a grunt and a boss should involve two things: 1. Better costuming and 2. a FAR larger health bar.

-Weak boss weapons. So far, a few hours in, boss drops - as in the first game - continue to disappoint.

-Quick respawns. Please, please let Gearbox patch the respawn time so once I clear an instanced world space/map it does not respawn until I leave and come back. The loot does not respawn, but once again, enemies do.


That said, Borderlands 2 also features many improvements:

-A living world. Different creatures and factions hate one another. Raks dive bomb Skags, who attack bandits. Bullymogs attack everyone. The world feels much more alive as a result.

-Better NPC's. Many of them move around now, and have some basic, Oblivion style AI. Not quite as in depth as that, but its an improvement. A big one.

-Better graphics/display options. We're treated like we play on PC, this time. Uncapped Frame Rates!

-More exciting guns. Their visuals are more varied and their effects louder and more colorful. Also, better weapons seem to appear toward the beginning of the game, at least in co-op mode, making for more satisfying loot drops.

-Better enemy AI and pathing. They dodge, leap and jump around. The cooperate better, too.

-Physics based impacts. Shotguns and sniper rifles especially will knock enemies backward or off balance, as in Rage. Occasionally a well placed hit will cause an enemy to fall down or drag a wounded leg. Nice touches.


Questionable Changes:

I am eager for thoughts on the following, as some might consider them boons while others despise the changes:


-Many of the better guns now use 2 and 3 rounds per shot. Can be frustrating early, but actually makes ammo matter.

-Shields. The better ones seem to drain health now in exchange for higher shields, making shields a give and take as opposed to the (sometimes overly large and unbalanced) boon of the first game. I found it a little...disappointing, myself, especially with the numerous "suicide bandits" but am learning to work around it.


All around a better game and one I recommend, if you can play it coop. I love BL2 enough to say I do not regret buying it at full price, but I can honestly say at the same time, this formula won't work for me a third time, despite the first two installments.

auxout
23-09-2012, 07:16 PM
I take it the game is still quite rubbish if played single player then?

Blackcompany
23-09-2012, 07:19 PM
I take it the game is still quite rubbish if played single player then?

I would not say its rubbish. That said, my girl and I recently purchased Torchlight 2 and I stumbled onto Stranger's Wrath HD. Were I to play a game solo today, BL2 would certainly be third on my list of games to play.

Mohorovicic
23-09-2012, 07:33 PM
I take it the game is still quite rubbish if played single player then?

It's quite rubbish period. Almost everything Borderlands 2 does Borderlands did either better or with more style. Core gameplay is mostly identical so if you're allergic to FPP aRPGs stay away.

archonsod
23-09-2012, 07:53 PM
-Too many suicide enemies. This is a shooter. You have one basic melee strike. Yet 50% of the enemies you will fight will insist on rushing you as fast as possible.

Spike or nova shields quickly sort that problem out. Although so far I've not seen that many melee opponents. Apart from the animals each bandit spawn tends to have two or three psychos at most, and it's rare to see more than one or two suicide bombers for the most part. There's the Goliaths of course, but you can avoid that by not shooting their helmet off (or conversely, shoot it off when they're in the middle of their pals and watch the fun).


-The Return of the Bullet Sponges. Because the difference between a grunt and a boss should involve two things: 1. Better costuming and 2. a FAR larger health bar.

The badass and above this time round seem far more likely to be packing special weapons (element damage, rockets etc). Though the variety of enemies is hugely increased, which is nice.


-Physics based impacts. Shotguns and sniper rifles especially will knock enemies backward or off balance, as in Rage. Occasionally a well placed hit will cause an enemy to fall down or drag a wounded leg. Nice touches.

The effect of bullets on environments is much appreciated too, particularly with the physx turned up. It actually looks like a warzone after the battle is finished.


-Many of the better guns now use 2 and 3 rounds per shot. Can be frustrating early, but actually makes ammo matter.

I think the best change there is the way the different arms companies are now actually distinct from each other so you actually see a difference, whether it's Dahl's 'burst fire when zoomed' or Tediore's disposable exploding guns.
The ammo thing isn't a huge problem since there's plenty of ways to regain ammo (and plenty of ammo scattered in most locations). It's annoying at the start purely because it takes so long before you can upgrade your ammo capacities. On the plus side, it does encourage you to pack more than one weapon type (I also note most of the skill trees also support this, it looks like most characters now have at least two weapon types they can focus on, with most buffs applying to both types).


-Shields. The better ones seem to drain health now in exchange for higher shields, making shields a give and take as opposed to the (sometimes overly large and unbalanced) boon of the first game. I found it a little...disappointing, myself, especially with the numerous "suicide bandits" but am learning to work around it.

Define better. Generally I've not seen much point in the turtle shields; spike and nova shields are more useful, although I'm currently having fun with an absorb shield. I actually prefer the change, it means there's far more encouragement to actually think about which shield to use rather than just going for the highest number.


I take it the game is still quite rubbish if played single player then?
I'm enjoying it mainly in single player. Mind you, I loved the first one in single player too.

gundato
23-09-2012, 08:09 PM
Yeah, I've been enjoying it thus far. I think I am at level 25 or so at this point.

A tip: If you play as Axton, the left branch (Commando, I think) is obscene. A few good passive boosts (faster reloads and health regen) and a few REALLY good boosts for your turret (missile launchers, longer duration, more dakka, etc). Combine that with a class mod to lower the cooldown and I basically could probably make it through many areas without firing a single round from any of my "real" guns if I wanted to.

shaydeeadi
24-09-2012, 12:19 AM
I'm liking the extra chatter from enemies, a Psycho running up behind you screaming 'look at me when I'm charging at you' had me in stitches and the buzzard pilots screaming Ride of the Valkyries was a nice touch. It's another thing that helps make the world feel more alive. I've been impressed by the soundtrack too which I wasn't expecting to be honest. The gun designs are much more varied now which is nice, but I'm struggling to find any spectacular loot at the moment, maybe I just have high standards, this is SP and co-op by the way. Only just got a slag shotgun at level 20, but I like it.

I will agree what Jim said in the review that the game takes a while to get going, but once the shit goes down with sanctuary it's been getting much more fun. The thresher fight and the beacon defence was intense solo, hopefully one of my buddies hasn't finished that yet so I can jump in and enjoy the struggle once more. Oh yeah, I screwed up the murder mystery and still got the rewards and all sorts haha!

It also runs fantastically on my cheap laptop, with everything turned up except physx and getting a solid 50fps which is plenty for me to enjoy myself. I wasn't expecting much more than a tweaked Borderlands with new loot and areas so I'm very satisfied with it currently.

Finicky
24-09-2012, 01:20 AM
Moho clearly never made it past the first few hours of the game, or got his ass kicked a few too many times (the game is much less forgiving than blands 1 ).
I'm allergic to Arpgs and I enjoy blands 2 because the loot actually changes the gameplay all the time.


I take it the game is still quite rubbish if played single player then?

The game is fine singleplayer for several reasons.

*Gunplay is much improved :
-recoil systems
-much more interesting gun mechanics like pistols that shoot slow rounds that follow a ballistic trajectory, or bouncing rounds, slower flying projectile explosive rounds etc.
The first game was mostly primitive hitscan shooting, this is a big step up from the poor shooting in blands1

*The story is entertaining enough, much much much improved over the rubbish story of the first game. I don't play zero so I don't have to deal with the constant meme spam that zero players complain about:p
By videogame standards the voice acting is EXCEPTIONAL (which means, it's decent enough by movie standards with some highlights), almost every single "AAA" game has god awful voice acting.

*the sound track is excellent, glad to see that they didn't go for shitty flavor of the month songs but actually have songs that fit the maps and game.
It's almost up to par with half life and portal.

*Loot actually affects gameplay a lot more now, diff guns cater to diff playstyles, it's not just slower or faster reloads, bigger zoom, higher dmg and moar dots. (this is my reason for liking the game)

At least for siren certain gun types and parts synergise well with certain skillbuilds in a meaningful way : e.g aoe phase shift and ele dmg spec + explosive assault rifle/shotgun or rocket launchers + singularity grenades gives you a very different playstyle to speccing for phaseshift duration + reload speed on kill + fire rate boost during phaseshift + using pistols and snipers + reaper.
The former is an build where you herd enemies together to blow them up from up close, the latter is you doing all the damage yourself with good aim and using phase shift to cc one dangerous enemy at a time with the buffs allowing you to take out everyone else one by one in seconds so you can deal with the badass/dangerous enemy 1v1.

Meaningful loot like this sets a new standard for loot games tbh, and is so much better than just asinine damage/block/hp/dot scaling with ever bigger enemy health bars like in every other loot game.
By comparison:
I took one look at the uniques and high lvl loot of torchlight II and lost interest because it's the usual non gameplay affecting generic stat upgrade tripe.


*AI is a big step up, especially in New game + (true vault hunter mode) it has a lot of tricks : the enemies dodge and weave constantly and fast in ng+ , roll away from grenades immediately, jump to lower and higher platforms, get knocked down or flinch from headshots, seek cover inside enemy shield bubbles, the robots repair and shield eachother in new game +, robots change behavior depending on what bits you blow off of them, enemies throw their own grenades, place turrets, vault over cover, use cover in a non-obnoxious way, they turn on eachother or other enemy types etc etc etc.
Basically they are a lot more entertaining to fight than in most recent shooters, and the ai in blands 1 was pretty basic.

*Side quests elaborate on the main story or story characters a lot, and usually it's interesting (angel, tiny tina, meat stick etc stories are quite sad)

Blands 1 was a big lootwhore carrot with decent style and some humor, and people forgave its mediocre or sub par everything else because it was the first 'diablo fps'.
This game actually has fairly decent gameplay to back it up.


There are some inconveniences and rough egdes like:
-the pacing is crap until you get to sanctuary 2 hours into the game, it's a tutorial for new players I suppose but it should be skippable.
-the lousy inventory/shop ui
- enemies becoming bulletsponges unless you have good weapons in ng+ can put the gunplay in the backseat again. This combined with loot having many more possible permutations and requiring specific loot for a specific build means you can sometimes be 6 levels behind on gear (=bulletsponge enemies in ng+)


Overall the game is vastly improved from the first and seems like a decent port (super stable, no mouse smoothing or acceleration, no input lag, wide FOV, good performance).
Not much more you can ask from a sequel I think than the game being a proper marked improvement.

Some tips after finishing the game to make it more enjoyable :
-Upgrade pistol and smg ammo cap at the black market or you'll struggle for ammo, you also can't carry 2-3 of the same weapon like you could in blands 1 for ammo reasons... unless you like having to constantly scavenge every shitty little box for spare ammo.
You are no longer supposed to just 'choose' a weapon through class mod and then stick with it... I personally always have a sniper or rocket launcher in one slot, a good midrange corrosive weapon in another and a good burn weapon in a third.
Electric weapons are optional not that many enemies are shielded and grenades can usually take care of the shield.
Slag is only useful on bosses and super badasses, imo slag grenades are better than slag weapons since switching out weaps is annoying and enemies never come alone.
Slag only lasts a few seconds and is more of a coop play debuff.

-always have a decent corrosive weapon in your bags that won't run out of ammo fast, you will need them for long periods of time throughout the story.

-respec your talents to suit your guns... depending on what guns you find some builds can be a LOT more efficient than others, respeccing is cheap you should do it every time you change your load out a lot.

-exit to menu > resume game will have you end up back at a teleport terminal, this 'll save you a lot of running about during the game and takes mere seconds on my pc. (which has a busted slow dying hard drive).

-feel free to skip timed quests, you get 2 more changes to do them later (new game + and new game 2.5) and they are a massive waste of time.

-blues, purples and oranges no longer drop like candy like in the first game, not even at the end. orange is basically the new pearl , purple the new orange.
Green weapons and shields can often be surprisingly good.

-try out every quest reward weapon and specific boss drop weapons properly,quite a few of them are very very good because of their unique properties (e.g a "fibber" pistol that does enormous critical hit dmg and is still best in slot 10 levels later, or snipers with extra crit dmg etc)

-don't fret over the golden chest... the loot is good for whatever level you open it at, but it's just purples and no unique weapons. Imo just use it at a point where your current weapons feel inadequate after a bad luck streak in drops.
You are guaranteed to be able to farm something equal or better from the final story boss (or the lvl 50 boss) in no time.

-turn the music volume slider way up, the music is good :p

gundato
24-09-2012, 02:09 AM
One thing worth saying: Borderlands 2 uses one of my favorite methods of storytelling. The story is actually REALLY dark and tragic, but it is told in a way that is hilarious and avoids a "grimdark" approach.

And the periodic ECHO calls from Handsome Jack definitely help. Very early in the game you'll probably find out that a beloved character from the first was brutally executed. And while sitting there, somewhat in shock, Handsome Jack will then deliver a hilariously awkward and offensive series of calls, resulting in an inability to do anything BUT smirk/laugh. And the game pretty much straddles that line non-stop. You are never certain if you should be laughing hysterically or (just) wanting to kill the crap out of him.


Of course, I can think of one character I DO want to kill the crap out of :p

Finicky
24-09-2012, 02:15 AM
One thing worth saying: Borderlands 2 uses one of my favorite methods of storytelling. The story is actually REALLY dark and tragic, but it is told in a way that is hilarious and avoids a "grimdark" approach.

And the periodic ECHO calls from Handsome Jack definitely help. Very early in the game you'll probably find out that a beloved character from the first was brutally executed. And while sitting there, somewhat in shock, Handsome Jack will then deliver a hilariously awkward and offensive series of calls, resulting in an inability to do anything BUT smirk/laugh. And the game pretty much straddles that line non-stop. You are never certain if you should be laughing hysterically or (just) wanting to kill the crap out of him.


Of course, I can think of one character I DO want to kill the crap out of :p

Even though none of this are direct spoilers I'm still gona white out the text since imo it's part of the charm of the game to not know this.
Yeah it's pretty well done, and even jack's character exposition makes you sympathise with him at points.
It's nice when even the (hilariously over the top) bad guys aren't completely black and white evil..
Jack is a caricature but still has depth..
The only weak chars imo are mordecai and roland.
Jack's voice actor really sells the story at the end.

gundato
24-09-2012, 02:19 AM
Another character worth commenting on:

Tina was a particularly well done example. She starts off as "Yay, zany batpoop insane kid with explosives and mental illness", which makes her fit in perfectly with 1. Then her tea party which goes from "Ha ha, torture" to "Holy crap... that poor girl...". THEN you find out later on exactly how her family was murdered and why she is so obsessed with explosives... Which makes sense since Wildlife Preserve really isn't played for laughs beyond VERY mild use of Tannis and one or two of Jack's pre-recorded announcements.

Finicky
24-09-2012, 02:25 AM
Another character worth commenting on:

Tina was a particularly well done example. She starts off as "Yay, zany batpoop insane kid with explosives and mental illness", which makes her fit in perfectly with 1. Then her tea party which goes from "Ha ha, torture" to "Holy crap... that poor girl...". THEN you find out later on exactly how her family was murdered and why she is so obsessed with explosives... Which makes sense since Wildlife Preserve really isn't played for laughs beyond VERY mild use of Tannis and one or two of Jack's pre-recorded announcements.

They went even further and elaborated on meatstick who murdered her parents and his back story. Which was also sad and cruel since you saw him getting fried by Tina.
Despite that and the angel back story I still felt sorry for jack when I killed angel.

/massive spoiler

Imo you can almost count on one of the DLC featuring tiny tina a lot more, she is not a gag character like 'catch a riiiiiide' hillbilly whose name I can't even remember or his morbidly obese sister.

Mohorovicic
24-09-2012, 06:34 AM
Moho clearly never made it past the first few hours of the game, or got his ass kicked a few too many times (the game is much less forgiving than blands 1 ).

I went up to Sanctuary and did some quests there. The game is indeed more challenging - for the first two hours, where your level 1-5 toon fights enemies in generally 2-7 range; especially since melee has been dumbed down substantially and dodging psychos/bullymongs is simply not an option. But once you grind through the initial areas the game becomes exactly like Bordlerlands(that is, if you do every side quest, you will always be 1-3 levels ahead of enemies making combat a relaxing pasttime).


*Gunplay is much improved :
-recoil systems
-much more interesting gun mechanics like pistols that shoot slow rounds that follow a ballistic trajectory, or bouncing rounds, slower flying projectile explosive rounds etc.
The first game was mostly primitive hitscan shooting, this is a big step up from the poor shooting in blands1

Everything you said was in Borderlands, it's just that "quirky" weapon mechanics were mostly limited to unique/special weapons that didn't spawn normally. And for good reason, because it's annoying to find a clearly superior weapon only to notice it shoots in some zany fassion that makes it mostly unusable.


One thing worth saying: Borderlands 2 uses one of my favorite methods of storytelling. The story is actually REALLY dark and tragic, but it is told in a way that is hilarious and avoids a "grimdark" approach.

No, you're thinking of that other game. What was the name... oh right - Borderlands. That game could've been easily made into Gears of War grimdark with very little effort(mostly turning the graphics real and brown and changing some minor mechanics like gun vending machines).

Borderlands 2 features guns that are reloaded by throwing them at the enemy in an explosive fashion, first NPC you meet is a faux british "hunter scholar gentleman" complete with a (almost)monocle, and Baron Flynt's base has a giant junk sculpture of a dragon breathing fire for absolutely no reason.

Nah, it would take much more than a few touches to turn this into something that can be taken even remotely seriously.


And the periodic ECHO calls from Handsome Jack definitely help. Very early in the game you'll probably find out that a beloved character from the first was brutally executed. And while sitting there, somewhat in shock, Handsome Jack will then deliver a hilariously awkward and offensive series of calls, resulting in an inability to do anything BUT smirk/laugh. And the game pretty much straddles that line non-stop. You are never certain if you should be laughing hysterically or (just) wanting to kill the crap out of him.

"Butt-stalion" - a pony made of diamonds. Yes, how can you not laugh at that?

I think anyone who genuinely finds this game funny is prime 4chan material. It's almost a textbook definition of "trying too hard"

archonsod
24-09-2012, 07:48 AM
*Side quests elaborate on the main story or story characters a lot, and usually it's interesting (angel, tiny tina, meat stick etc stories are quite sad)

Claptrap's party was the saddest :P

I quite like the more amusing ones too. So far I've killed the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, had something riff off Life of Brian and currently am engaged in something not entirely removed from Moby Dick.


-Upgrade pistol and smg ammo cap at the black market or you'll struggle for ammo, you also can't carry 2-3 of the same weapon like you could in blands 1 for ammo reasons... unless you like having to constantly scavenge every shitty little box for spare ammo.

That depends on the character - the Commando can substantially increase his assault rifle ammo, and the Gunzerker can regenerate ammo. The gunzerker also gets a bonus to dual wielding the same type of weapon during his active ability (although you get a different bonus for two different types of weapon too).
Generally speaking though the more weapons you diversify into, the less likely you are to hit the bullet sponge problem you mentioned. If you don't get any decent drops in your main weapon category it's good to be able to switch to whatever you do have a good drop for.


You are no longer supposed to just 'choose' a weapon through class mod and then stick with it...

I've yet to see a class mod that affects a single weapon type - closest so far has been the loyalty mods which affect all weapons by a specific manufacturer.



especially since melee has been dumbed down substantially

Are you sure you were playing the same game? Melee is identical to BL1 (you have a single melee attack). Of course, one character can now specialise in it, there's more weapons with +melee damage and you now have nova and spike shields to make it interesting. So they dumbed it down by adding more options and making it a viable build for one of the characters?


But once you grind through the initial areas the game becomes exactly like Bordlerlands(that is, if you do every side quest, you will always be 1-3 levels ahead of enemies making combat a relaxing pasttime)

Not unless you're playing on easy, no.

popej
24-09-2012, 08:58 AM
....Not unless you're playing on easy, no.

You can change the difficulty?

The games great so far and I play exclusively single player (for those of you having doubts about the purchase). One annoyance I'm having is with the sound though. Specifically, someone fires a gun 400m away but it sounds like they're standing next to you.

I still think there are far better ways to do the levelling system though, I'm at sanctuary now and I'm already starting to over-level a bit :( . Skipping side quests is irritating for a completionist like me. Why they couldn't just SEVERELY nerf the experience gain from killing enemies more than 1 level below you I'll never know, at the moment is just isn't punishing enough.

Flint
24-09-2012, 09:33 AM
I'm very much enjoying the game as well and I more or less play on singleplayer exclusively right now. It feels improved on Borderlands on nearly every aspect - I still think the guns be a little bit more random and bizarre, but now at least every one I've used so far has operated at least somewhat differently so it's felt like I've had different weapons rather than just boring reskins. Overall though, it's exactly what I expected and wanted - Borderlands but with the wonks and issues that bugged me removed.

I'm doing every sidequest I see and I don't really feel overleveled, still get a decent amount of challenge fairly often. Though that may just be because I'm playing a sniper Zer0, which means I'm not as strong in the very middle of a heated battlefield as other classes.

JayTee
24-09-2012, 11:27 AM
I'm loving it, it's more-or-less a straight improvement over BL1 in almost every aspect.

Grenades are a lot more varied and interesting with the addition of 'mine' grenades, seeker grenades and slag grenades. I've been enjoying the MIRV grenades, like I did in BL1, but recently found a hilariously powerful fire 'mine' grenade which combines nicely with the Acid Cloud spec on Maya and my random spraying of elemental effects from various weapons.

Shields are also a lot more varied, the 'amp' shields are pretty neat for sniping and the odd rocket launcher, while the 'melee' shields are quite fun for dealing with the occasional Psycho swarm.

Guns are more enjoyable because each manufacturer has some more 'theme', the gun models and textures are also a large improvement and there's a seeming LOT more variety in how they look/reload/sound. Enemies also seem to have a broader selection of weapons, rather than just the odd elemental Crimson Lance dude having elemental effects a good number of the Badass and some of the random 'others' have effects which makes for some more interesting manshooting.

The story is vastly improved. Not that that is particularly impressive as BL1 had a terrible story, while I'm quite enjoying the stuff right now. Jack is amusing, he's ridiculously childish at points but actually I'm finding he makes me laugh on occasion. Tanis is awesome, definitely some of the most amusing ECHO messages from her.

So far I've just played Maya, up to level 24 and 'reasonably' into the Storyline. I've been doing a lot of the sidequests but the game is anything but a walk in the park despite this. I've died a LOT more in BL2 than I ever did in BL1, though frankly Lilith was hilariously overpowered in BL1 with the right build and a decent elemental weapon. Maya seems to be a lot more balanced in that respect.

I've a few gripes (UI is a bit wonky, STOP GIVING ME GOD-DAMNED PISTOLS) but a solid improvement over BL1 I feel that merits it at least three and a half Midgets.

Mohorovicic
24-09-2012, 12:34 PM
Are you sure you were playing the same game? Melee is identical to BL1 (you have a single melee attack). Of course, one character can now specialise in it, there's more weapons with +melee damage and you now have nova and spike shields to make it interesting. So they dumbed it down by adding more options and making it a viable build for one of the characters?

As if nova and spike are anything but a gimmick. When your shield is gone it's generally time to hide your ass, not go in swinging your sword.

The melee is dumbed down because of the enemy attacks, not yours. Most melee attacks in Borderlands could be dodged, either by backstepping or sidestepping. I killed Badass Psychos with nothing but melee attacks on more than one occassion, and I never even shot a bullet at a Skag.

That was offset by the fact that enemy melee attacks were very strong; a single swing of a Psycho took away all your shields, no matter the actual value, with second you were almost dead, and with third you were in Last Stand. So you could melee them, but if you made a mistake you paid dearly for it.

In BL2 it doesn't matter; none of the enemy melee attacks can be dodged, the hitboxes are simply too large(this is especially funny on the PC with 90 or more FOV since the game's melee attack disance was obviously optimised for something like 60); you're expected to simply press and hold the fire button, and only tactic is "kill them before they kill you".

Then you run out of ammo because you're not carrying an using four different guns like the game wants you to.

popej
24-09-2012, 01:06 PM
Are there revolvers like the ones Mordecai specialised in? Or just pistols with high single shot damage/small magazines?

Ta.

gundato
24-09-2012, 01:21 PM
We get it mohor, you are awesome and hate the game.


Are there revolvers like the ones Mordecai specialised in? Or just pistols with high single shot damage/small magazines?

Ta.
There are pistols with revolver animations, but they all feel more like "high caliber semi-automatics" to me.

And I have yet to find a masher, which is probably for the best. Mordecai basically stopped picking up new guns after I find my first masher in 1 :p

Jesus_Phish
24-09-2012, 02:34 PM
Enjoying playing it. We're having bad frame rate issues at the local club we play in. ATI cards, drivers are most likely very out of date and looking around online we've seen a lot of people have issues on ATI. One such one is that without Depth of Field on, when you start bleeding out the screen goes solid black until someone starts to revive you.

I love the differences in gun makers being so much more now. The Teidore weapons are just hilarious to use. I'm not sure if I like the 2/3 rounds per shot though. I think it's artificially inflating the damage on guns and you spend so much time reloading. Some guns also have retarded reload times. One guy using a double clip smg, 8 second reload time.

Finicky
24-09-2012, 04:22 PM
I went up to Sanctuary and did some quests there. The game is indeed more challenging - for the first two hours, where your level 1-5 toon fights enemies in generally 2-7 range; especially since melee has been dumbed down substantially and dodging psychos/bullymongs is simply not an option. But once you grind through the initial areas the game becomes exactly like Bordlerlands(that is, if you do every side quest, you will always be 1-3 levels ahead of enemies making combat a relaxing pasttime).



Everything you said was in Borderlands, it's just that "quirky" weapon mechanics were mostly limited to unique/special weapons that didn't spawn normally. And for good reason, because it's annoying to find a clearly superior weapon only to notice it shoots in some zany fassion that makes it mostly unusable.



No, you're thinking of that other game. What was the name... oh right - Borderlands. That game could've been easily made into Gears of War grimdark with very little effort(mostly turning the graphics real and brown and changing some minor mechanics like gun vending machines).


And there we go, you made it to sanctuary and did a few quests... I made it to sanctuary on playthrough two in an hour and a half. A full playthrough including all sidequests and arenas takes well over 40 hours.

All you've seen is the shitty tutorial (I've said before that the start of the game is weak) , some gag/flavor tutorial characters and maaaybe lilith and roland.
The serious part of the story kicks in once you hit the preserve, which is like 10-15 hours in... and you obviously haven't seen it.

So you've not made it far enough into the game for the charcter builds to come into play, for the AI to kick up the difficulty (15-20 hours into the game), for the variety of weapons to appear, for the story to come into play..

You now actively rely on those 'quirky' weapons with akward stats to complement your build... I have 8 skill levels in wreck (+80 percent firing speed and damage during phaselock being active) so I have a slow firing huge magazine explosive damage accurate assault rifle that on its own isnt very effective but switch to when I phase lock which then turns it into basically a rocket launcher/minigun for 6 seconds....
There is a pistol that hits for 400 damage with a large mag and the projectiles fall pretty hard, but if you can arch them towards enemy heads/weakspots then it crits for 10k each (fast fire rate) shot, 5 points into the tier 1 prohectile speed talent and some good aim makes this gimmick gun one of the best in the game.
Every quirky gun (smgs are boring imo, they were too in the first game but that's all you had to roll with as lilith) has its role and has a different playstyle.
I put almost 100 hours into blands 1 coop with a friend, solo farmed crawmeraxx (lilith , not glitch farm) so I know the game plenty well, and there is WAY WAY WAY more variation in the guns now and the shooting is much improved.
In the first game as lilith you looked for the classmod with highest smg dmg increase or ele dmg increase, used 3 smgs + a situational weapon, and just upgraded every time you found an smg with a bigger magazine or higher dmg or elemental damage...the loot mechanics were as bad as in diablo.


BTW if you don't dodge psychos and skags at endgame or during all of new game + then you will die over and over and over and over. The game gets more difficult , I did all but 4 sidequests by the end of the game and the final quarter of the game was significantly more challenging than the first 3 hours that you claim is the hard bit.
You can still dodge and you have to still dodge, but you wouldn't know that because you barely made it past the claptrap tutorial storyline.

So yeah, they made the tutorial bit drag out too long( it's a console game afterall), but it's a big improvement from blands 1 after that, and for every low brow tryhard joke there are 5 genuinly witty or genuinly well written story bits, and the voice acting from the main characters is good enough to ensure the delivery of the main story is good.


If you are going to comment on a game (positive or negative) at least play it first... otherwise it's a waste of time.

Sketch
24-09-2012, 04:28 PM
So yeah, they made the tutorial bit drag out too long( it's a console game afterall)


Ermm...eh?

Finicky
24-09-2012, 04:40 PM
You can change the difficulty?

The games great so far and I play exclusively single player (for those of you having doubts about the purchase). One annoyance I'm having is with the sound though. Specifically, someone fires a gun 400m away but it sounds like they're standing next to you.

I still think there are far better ways to do the levelling system though, I'm at sanctuary now and I'm already starting to over-level a bit :( . Skipping side quests is irritating for a completionist like me. Why they couldn't just SEVERELY nerf the experience gain from killing enemies more than 1 level below you I'll never know, at the moment is just isn't punishing enough.
You won't find overleveled weapons as you level up until you progress to the next main story bit that requires them anyhow...
You'll be higher level with 2-3 extra talent points but your damage (which scales a bit with level) won't make it trivial. At least not in the second half of the game.
The exp curve spreads out (takes a LONG time to level 26-33 for example) spreads out so much that by the final third of the game that sidequest exp from the rest of the game up till then won't even make a dent anymore to your total exp.

imo skip the timed quests , and you can safely skip the ones from the guy with the monocle you won't miss any story.


Enjoying playing it. We're having bad frame rate issues at the local club we play in. ATI cards, drivers are most likely very out of date and looking around online we've seen a lot of people have issues on ATI. One such one is that without Depth of Field on, when you start bleeding out the screen goes solid black until someone starts to revive you.

I love the differences in gun makers being so much more now. The Teidore weapons are just hilarious to use. I'm not sure if I like the 2/3 rounds per shot though. I think it's artificially inflating the damage on guns and you spend so much time reloading. Some guns also have retarded reload times. One guy using a double clip smg, 8 second reload time.

Siren and gunzerker can drastically reduce reload times or the need to reload (fully specced for it , or if you want to overkill you can use a classmod that reduces reload for the weapon type) siren reduces reloads to negligable times. Not sure about the other two.
I also think they made some combinations of stats specificially for certain classes (since it's a coop game afterall) .
I ran with the wave shotgun from the quest for a while (1 shot per magazine) and it played pretty much like a pump action shotgun in other games, firing speed wise.

Shooop
24-09-2012, 05:23 PM
I'm having a blast, only about 5 hours in. The bandits are now actually somewhat of a threat thanks to some better AI - they're still horrible shots, but they'll vault over cover and throw grenades often. Their new dialogue is hysterical - I heard a pyscho yell, "Gimmie back my health points!" and cracked up. Enemies even limp and struggle to move when they take heavy damage which is very handy against melee types.

The weakest link I've encountered so far is the playable characters' quips. Zero's especially. He comes off as a goddamn creeper instead of menacing. Salvador seems to just yell "Bitch!" as often as thugs in Arkham City. Odd considering how good NPC dialogue is.



No fun allowed.

Shouldn't you be playing Day Z instead since you hate playing games just to have a good time? Why would you buy a game that's been advertised as being batshit insane if batshit insanity doesn't appeal at all to you?

coldvvvave
24-09-2012, 05:25 PM
Enjoying playing it. We're having bad frame rate issues at the local club we play in. ATI cards, drivers are most likely very out of date and looking around online we've seen a lot of people have issues on ATI. One such one is that without Depth of Field on, when you start bleeding out the screen goes solid black until someone starts to revive you.
I had framerate problems too until I disabled Dynamic Shadows in the ini-file.

Finicky
24-09-2012, 05:39 PM
No framerate issues here on a hd6870, but man do I feel your pain, amd has not been kind to me for the past 2 years :( Not surprised that blands2 is no exception when it comes to poor amd performance.

SirKicksalot
24-09-2012, 05:42 PM
Borderlands 2 is the ultimate proof that PhysX can add a lot to games. This new version of PhysX runs a lot better with way more stuff on screen!

Jesus_Phish
24-09-2012, 05:53 PM
Haven't tried messing around with the .ini file yet, but might give it a go.

Mohorovicic
24-09-2012, 06:25 PM
And there we go, you made it to sanctuary and did a few quests... I made it to sanctuary on playthrough two in an hour and a half.

I am genuinely amused now at your attitude. How does your play speed on second playthrough is supposed to relate in any way to my play speed first time around? I don't know my exact time, but I believe it was around six-eight hours before I gave it up. If the game still didn't manage to get out of tutorial by then(as you claim) then sorry but fuck this. What is this, FFXIII?


If you are going to comment on a game (positive or negative) at least play it first... otherwise it's a waste of time.

Aaand here we go, the irrefutable "If you didn't finish it you can't comment on it, if you finished it then you had to like it or you wouldn't stick around". I applaud your mad internet skillz, sir.


Shouldn't you be playing Day Z instead since you hate playing games just to have a good time? Why would you buy a game that's been advertised as being batshit insane if batshit insanity doesn't appeal at all to you?

You still need some practice though. Why did I play Borderlands 2... hmmm because it's a sequel to Borderlands and I liked that game? Well, better luck next time. Don't forget to get horribly offended by what I said for no reason, please like, subscribe and report this post

Finicky
24-09-2012, 09:31 PM
Dude, comprehensive reading...

You played through less than 15 percent of the game (THAT IS THE POINT) , the overly long tutorial mission bit....
We mentioned before you started your uninformed rant that the beginning is weak, and that the story gets interesting as the game goes on, and you keep ignoring that and keep rambling on about what little you saw of the game.
When you are told that the things you complain about change or are objectively wrong, you still ramble on.

Point is noone is going to take your ramblings seriously unless you actually played the game, especially since most of your complaints wouldn't be here if you'd played the game.

It's like giving an opinion on ff7 when you never it past the first reactor mission, or of half life if you quit right after you got the crowbar and made it past the shitty acid jumping bit...
You are the only one I've seen on here or the gearbox forums who doesn't commend the game on being a large improvement over the first game. In fact you claim the game you haven't played is worse than the game before it.

What part of 'the beginning is poorly paced , a pretty lame tutorial and the story doesn't get going till after you get to sanctuary' do you not understand?
You really think that in a 40 hour game the first 2 hours being bad ( need I remind you how unbelievably shitbad the first 2 zones in blands 1 were?) warrants calling the entire game shit?

There's enough factually correct shit to complain about in this game, no need to make stuff up.. nevertheless the game is much better than blands 1.
Perhaps some day in a borderlands 3 they manage to make a decent ui and better pacing and less backtracking, if the other parts would be as improved as bl2 is from bl1 it could become a classic.

The only thing upsetting about your posts if the lack of reading comprehension. Noone likes to repeat themselves.

Shooop
24-09-2012, 09:33 PM
Why did I play Borderlands 2... hmmm because it's a sequel to Borderlands and I liked that game? Well, better luck next time. Don't forget to get horribly offended by what I said for no reason, please like, subscribe and report this post
You either have such terrible memory you probably forget where your keys are after you put them in your pocket or you're plain out lying. Because Borderlands 2 is pretty much the same as the first game only with more of everything and improvements to the UI and world variety.

Now, don't you have kids playing outside to yell at?

archonsod
24-09-2012, 09:45 PM
I still think there are far better ways to do the levelling system though, I'm at sanctuary now and I'm already starting to over-level a bit :( . Skipping side quests is irritating for a completionist like me. Why they couldn't just SEVERELY nerf the experience gain from killing enemies more than 1 level below you I'll never know, at the moment is just isn't punishing enough.
To be honest the enemy levels aren't a huge factor this time out. What I'm finding is it tends to be the enemy type that causes problem rather than their level. Bandits and Hyperion robots I'm breezing through, Buzzards and Threshers on the other hand are a bit of a pain. Part of it is loadout (the only decent corrosive weapon I have is the teapot from Tina, and that's starting to get into peashooter territory) and part of it seems to be class oriented.


As if nova and spike are anything but a gimmick. When your shield is gone it's generally time to hide your ass, not go in swinging your sword.

Spikes only work when the shield is up, and Nova bursts repeat for a period of time, so are often the best time to plunge into the midst of the enemy.



In BL2 it doesn't matter; none of the enemy melee attacks can be dodged, the hitboxes are simply too large

I've yet to have any issues dodging melee attacks o.O



Then you run out of ammo because you're not carrying an using four different guns like the game wants you to.
I've also yet to hit any problems with ammo, and that's using assault rifles. The average lonely shack tends to have enough ammo containing crates/toilets/fridges to keep the A-Team well stocked for a year.



Siren and gunzerker can drastically reduce reload times or the need to reload

One of the guerilla's early skills reduces reload times. You can also utilise the BA perks to reduce it further too. Reloading taking too long is what Tediore were made for though ...

Finicky
24-09-2012, 10:12 PM
35 percent or so into new game + (skipping many sidequests for ng2.5 to get the lvl 50 rewards) and I'm 2 levels overleveled (enemies give a looooot of exp in new game +, i.e 12k exp for a sidequest but 2(-5k) for a (super) badass of which there are many) and I'm dying a LOT while figuring out how to deal with the harder enemies. (which means I'm killing the same enemies multiple times)

Super badasses are a really huge threat, those flying bandit vehicles become extremely dangerous + they don't just die fast to corrosive damage anymore, you need to go for the pilot's head or engines which is harder than on the first playthrough. (they fly faster, only stop to shoot rockets that will gib your shield and most of your health).
In groups you will hate these things because they will kick your ass.

There are a lot of new enemy variations that spawn with rocket launchers or are immune to the element their normal mode equivalent is weak to.
Enemies dodge and weave like crazy too which makes it harder to get second winds (the one you are focussing will often strafe and roll and run for cover for extended periods of time), the dodging makes it much harder to get headshots if your weapon has any sway to it. Most normal enemies now take 20k-40k damage to die (1-2 sniper headshots with a good sniper still, but their non crit modifier is very low so they take much longer to just spray down) , super badasses take like 200k or more.
(so slag/slag grenades + headshots ,and using your special to burst them down is a must.

Again, I wouldn't worry too much about overleveling from the second half of the first playthrough on. Sidequests seem to become more of a difficulty modifier in that if you do em all you'll play on normal and if you skip them you'll be facing a big challenge.

This is all solo mode btw, I'm only doing coop once a friend who just bought the new wow expansion realises it's more of the same (so in a week or so).

Also random tip: I highly recommend doing the arena quests where you fight waves in coop... the last wave is looooooooooong each time and if you get knocked down into lava or happen to get downed behind cover then you get to start the entire wave over again.

Spider Jerusalem
24-09-2012, 11:25 PM
i dunno. played to the end. lvl 50, did all the things there are to do. it was fine i suppose, but not as huge of a step forward from borderlands 1 as i would've hoped. part of my disappointment comes from poor rng (only two or three oranges dropped in my entire 30+ hour playthrough), and part of it comes from playing the less-than-satisfying melee spec zero, but i was hoping for more gun variation as the levels increase (as is, every gun type pretty much appears around level 20, in my experience), and more access to/interesting unique loot.

Frenetic Pony
24-09-2012, 11:40 PM
Borderlands 2 has, for me, been a journey of a game. The first time I sat down to play it (co-op) I went for eight hours until it was about four in the morning. It was a game with a beautiful and unique art style, a clever sense of humor, very solid shooting of everything in sight, and a very good clip of introducing new types of enemies and weapons and even the occasional puzzle.

Since then the clip of newness has gone down steadily. The routine of finding new and better weapons has exhausted itself, and I now have two dozen different arrows to compare with two dozen other different arrows on eight different possible items I can equip which is not to mention leveling up and "badass" tokens. The once gleeful process of improving my stats has now turned into a morass of comparing any number of arrows to each other every five minutes only to be disappointed most of the time, or unexcited at scratching out the barest of improvements for the hundredth time in one of the arrows.

The combat and "story" have both taken a turn for the worse. The worthlessness of money has made its collection equally worthless, which has in turn made death itself (for which you are punished by the removal of money) utterly pointless. The constant intrusion of a story that doesn't know whether it wants to be a self serious pie or delicious hilarity cake has necessitated itself into my playtime thanks to enemies being constantly below my own and my co-op friends stats level, thus we try to slam through it to get to a real challenge and back to the sidequests and their all delicious hilarity cake all the time.

As for combat, the lack of any challenge has caused any marked difference between enemies to become pointless. Combined with the horrid design of boss levels and boss event types being nothing more than a slog through vast waves of identical enemies and/or fighting a boss with enough health to drain our entire ammo reserves combat has become a morass of flashing lights and mind numbing exposition by characters that lost their chance to interest me story wise long ago.

Perhaps, if I slog enough, there will be a light at the end of the tunnel. Perhaps, if I cut enough corners I'll be able to get back to challenging combat, which will allow me to go on the hilarious, reference filled quests I want to do, allow me to care about my multitude of stats again because I'll need them, allow me to care that the AI seems to be changing tactics because they'll be hard to kill. But right now, at what is about 18 hours in, I'm not really having fun. Instead, I'm fighting for the hope of having fun at some point down the line, and have the feeling that there could definitely be a better game out there that I'd be playing instead; if only this game season's release dates were not so spaced out from each other.

Frenetic Pony
24-09-2012, 11:52 PM
i dunno. played to the end. lvl 50, did all the things there are to do. it was fine i suppose, but not as huge of a step forward from borderlands 1 as i would've hoped. part of my disappointment comes from poor rng (only two or three oranges dropped in my entire 30+ hour playthrough), and part of it comes from playing the less-than-satisfying melee spec zero, but i was hoping for more gun variation as the levels increase (as is, every gun type pretty much appears around level 20, in my experience), and more access to/interesting unique loot.

Don't play Zero AT ALL! He is not a good class. Hindsight is 20/20, but melee is not interesting in a game focused almost entirely on guns. Specializing in sniper rifles is silly in a game with a lot of areas where they aren't practical and also a game where you get the most out of it by using a variety of types of guns. Even the middle area (which I respeced to a few hours in) isn't entirely satisfactory. Getting to use a temporary distraction every once in a while isn't really interesting.

I'm not sure any of the other classes are terribly interesting either, for that matter. Borderlands 2 could have taken the entire book of Team Fortress 2 to heart for designing classes and getting them to play differently and in and interesting manner. Unfortunately they didn't.

Flint
25-09-2012, 12:23 AM
I'd disagree on Zer0 not being good. I'm having great fun with him in sniper spec, and he's not bad at all in a more direct form of combat either - s'all about mobility and cunning, running around the battlefield cloaking when you can and striking enemies in their weak spots, utilising all those various kinds of bonus damage skills he has. A good chunk of his sniper tree skills aren't sniper rifle specific either so they'll buff all the other guns too. I admit there's some personal bias as I've always loved playing more sniper-y characters, but he's definitely as viable as any of the other classes.

Giaddon
25-09-2012, 03:57 AM
I finished this over the weekend with a gunzerker (awesome class!) and loved the hell out of it. Best first person shooter I've played this year, for sure. I've started a new game with the siren and am checking out the true vault hunter mode. I doubt I'll spend much time with any other game until XCOM and Dishonored land in a few weeks.

gundato
25-09-2012, 04:05 AM
From a quick glance, it looks like Zero and Maya are best specced out to increase their "normal" abilities. Axton you want to rely heavily on his action skill (although, the middle tree favors normal shootery pretty well). Haven't tried Salvador, but I imagine he is a hybrid in that his action skill is just even more normal shootery.

Wolfenswan
25-09-2012, 01:15 PM
I've been cooping with a melee/CQC gun focused Zer0 and we've been doing great.

My Siren I alternate between a support spec (when playing with 4), with team health regeneration and two health skills and a elemental damage focus (mostly caustic). Phaselock is brutal now, starting an explosion and pulling enemies towards it. I've begun carrying a rocket launcher just to deal with a whole lot of weak enemies at once by phaselocking their center and blasting away.

archonsod
25-09-2012, 07:47 PM
From a quick glance, it looks like Zero and Maya are best specced out to increase their "normal" abilities. Axton you want to rely heavily on his action skill (although, the middle tree favors normal shootery pretty well). Haven't tried Salvador, but I imagine he is a hybrid in that his action skill is just even more normal shootery.

Axton works well without the turret. You can go either rifle, rocket and grenade focus or tank (high boost to your shield cap and health, plus the ability to have both near constantly regenerate to boot). The turret is still useful without any skill points, simply because it tends to act as a huge distraction for enemies.

SirKicksalot
25-09-2012, 07:56 PM
Haven't tried Salvador, but I imagine he is a hybrid in that his action skill is just even more normal shootery.

He's focused on speed, health and extra damage/ammo conservation. I'm getting id vibes from playing as him.

Finicky
26-09-2012, 01:21 AM
Jeez the gear curve ramps up insanely much from lvl 44 and up...
Finding rocket launchers with 80-90k dmg, pistols with 5kx2 dmg and high fire rate, shields with 20+k shield value.

I can highly recommend Siren players to take the mind control talent in combination with wreck...
The uptime on the mind control is huge, the mind controlled enemy will tank all the other enemies for you, and you will do hilarious amounts of damage with 10/5 wreck through classmods.
The game is a lot less stressful solo when you have a 'pet' that will tank for you and give your shields time to recover.

Stalkers are absolutely infuriating in true vault hunter mode.
None of the elements have much effect on them, shock damage is almost as innefective against their shields, and they run off and regen their shields every chance they get.
They are like 3 tiers stronger than other enemies in the game.
Thank fuck you only really have to deal with them at the wildlife preserve and right before it...
What were gearbox thinking putting downright annoying enemies like that in the game.

TixyLixx
26-09-2012, 01:44 AM
Is the game still a boring loot grind where enemies take 1000 hits to kill?

Giaddon
26-09-2012, 02:08 AM
Not really! Boss and Badass enemies take a lot of hits, but it feels very fluid to me, as long as you're on the right end of the loot and level curve. But it does take a lot of cues from action RPGs and loot management is essential to success. Basically, if finding new items, comparing them with your current items, and deciding on certain loadout strategies doesn't excite you, skip Borderlands 2.

TixyLixx
26-09-2012, 02:24 AM
I just want story, not interested in loot, dunno why people would be it's not like it amounts to anything.

The JG Man
26-09-2012, 04:11 AM
Just pondering for AMD users in the thread; I tried fiddling around earlier at 1080p to get capped 60fps. With everything set to high (apart from PhysX for hopefully obvious reasons) or turned on, I was getting around 55fps dropping down to 30 in combat. Looking around, turning off Ambient Occlusion (this is where lighting is done 'realistically') serves as a massive source of fps issues. Turning it off gave me consistent 60fps, dipping into the mid 50s rarely. As a general effect, it's obviously great, but if you're having trouble, turn that off first. I think it offers the biggest gain for the smallest loss.

For reference, I'm using a 6850. Anything in the 6900 series plus should probably be fine. nVidia cards seem to be performing quite a bit better, relatively speaking. That being said, AMD hasn't released a driver update in just over a month, so hopefully we'll see some benefits when they can be bothered to sort themselves out.

As for the start, it's quite slow and a little bit overwhelming. Felt incredibly under-powered, but we'll see. Yet to try out the true co-op experience.

Finicky
26-09-2012, 04:21 AM
I just want story, not interested in loot, dunno why people would be it's not like it amounts to anything.

Fully agree.

It does amount to something in this game though (only game ever where it does), there is tons of variety in the weapons depending on what part combinations you find and it strongly affects how you play, in a meaningful way.
You aren't just stacking damage against bigger hp bars or just get faster reloads or more dots.

The story is great, the gameplay is very entertaining (at the last quarter of new game + atm and it still gets better and better).
I'm one of those people who is allergic to repetition and rarely finishes a game because of it, I haven't played through singleplayer (or coop) game twice in 10 years.
For reference: I made it 2 hours into torchlight 2 (also a game with loot) before the repetition bored me to tears and I uninstalled.

On a diff topic and unrelated to gameplay or story.
(WARNING: this will spoil the lvl 50 'raid' boss for you, you have been warned)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZBqAI54iFQ&feature=g-high-u
Absolutely hilarious:p

If you don't know what is going on in the video : He plays gunzerker and chooses talents + classmod + weapons + the amp shield proc to stack the maximum possible burst damage, which is enough to one shot the boss in this case.
Also before you jump on this, the rest of the game is nothing like this, the boss is normally nothing like this, the damage is normally nothing like this, and just because it exists with this combination of items and spec doesn't mean you can't play the game normally.
Also: the BEE shield is hilariously broken, but you do yourself a huge disservice by using it during normal gameplay as you miss out on all the normal combat mechanics.

gundato
27-09-2012, 02:13 AM
So... anyone know if the bug that resets badass points is fixed? Or what triggers it? Heard about that and am hesitant to go back in until it is fixed.

Finicky
27-09-2012, 03:12 AM
No patch so no fix, it seems pretty rare though.
Even if it were to bug (would be a bummer) for me, I doubt you'd even notice if the stats in the badass menu didn't revert.
The boosts are so minor even at 7k badass points.

From 45 to 50 all your stats, damage, hp and shields ,regen etc go up by 200 percent, doubt the 6 percent makes a dent. The only one that might make a bit of diff is the reload speed.

buemba
27-09-2012, 03:28 AM
About 20 hours in and I'm in a pretty lousy drop streak that significantly diminished my enjoyment of the game (Level 21 Axton, and my most powerful gun is level 15). I think it's time to use my golden key...

My favorite improvement over the first game is easily the new 1-point skills you get halfway through each tree that really enhance your character's special ability. As for my biggest complain (Other than the fact my character repeats "cool story bro" whenever I kill an enemy with a crit), I don't think I like the badass rank system all that much since it seems like it'll take far longer to get comparable bonuses to what the weapon proficiency system in BL1 eventually gave you.

And by the way: Randy Pitchford is giving out golden key codes right now on Twitter.

Giaddon
27-09-2012, 04:01 AM
The advantage over weapon proficiency is that you don't need to use a specific type of weapon to get the advantage, something I didn't like in the original. I play with the badass bonuses turned off, though, actually.

archonsod
27-09-2012, 07:37 AM
Yeah, but the BA points have a diminishing return effect. It takes a hell of a lot of +0.1% bonuses to see any actual difference from them ....

RedRobin
27-09-2012, 07:38 AM
I know we have a thread for the UI, and another for the Gore. I was hoping for some discussion of the game itself, however. So lets get started:

Borderlands 2 is an excellent game. Its a huge improvement over the first one in many - but not all - categories. There are some minor issues, and I wish to get the bad out of the way first:

-The UI. Its floaty and off to the side, now. Almost like you are looking at it from an angle, which bothers me for some reason. Also, its messy. Comparing items you might buy with equipped items is cumbersome. In general moving through the UI could be improved. I would even prefer the UI from BL1 to this, to be honest.

-Too many suicide enemies. This is a shooter. You have one basic melee strike. Yet 50% of the enemies you will fight will insist on rushing you as fast as possible. Some will explode suicide-bomber style and others will just pound you. Regardless of their purpose there are simply too many melee/suicide rushers in this game, period, and it gets annoying at times.

-The Return of the Bullet Sponges. Because the difference between a grunt and a boss should involve two things: 1. Better costuming and 2. a FAR larger health bar.

-Weak boss weapons. So far, a few hours in, boss drops - as in the first game - continue to disappoint.

-Quick respawns. Please, please let Gearbox patch the respawn time so once I clear an instanced world space/map it does not respawn until I leave and come back. The loot does not respawn, but once again, enemies do.


That said, Borderlands 2 also features many improvements:

-A living world. Different creatures and factions hate one another. Raks dive bomb Skags, who attack bandits. Bullymogs attack everyone. The world feels much more alive as a result.

-Better NPC's. Many of them move around now, and have some basic, Oblivion style AI. Not quite as in depth as that, but its an improvement. A big one.

-Better graphics/display options. We're treated like we play on PC, this time. Uncapped Frame Rates!

-More exciting guns. Their visuals are more varied and their effects louder and more colorful. Also, better weapons seem to appear toward the beginning of the game, at least in co-op mode, making for more satisfying loot drops.

-Better enemy AI and pathing. They dodge, leap and jump around. The cooperate better, too.

-Physics based impacts. Shotguns and sniper rifles especially will knock enemies backward or off balance, as in Rage. Occasionally a well placed hit will cause an enemy to fall down or drag a wounded leg. Nice touches.


Questionable Changes:

I am eager for thoughts on the following, as some might consider them boons while others despise the changes:


-Many of the better guns now use 2 and 3 rounds per shot. Can be frustrating early, but actually makes ammo matter.

-Shields. The better ones seem to drain health now in exchange for higher shields, making shields a give and take as opposed to the (sometimes overly large and unbalanced) boon of the first game. I found it a little...disappointing, myself, especially with the numerous "suicide bandits" but am learning to work around it.


All around a better game and one I recommend, if you can play it coop. I love BL2 enough to say I do not regret buying it at full price, but I can honestly say at the same time, this formula won't work for me a third time, despite the first two installments.

How do you feel about the game having so many exploits and bugs? I run into them all the time while playing :?

RedRobin
27-09-2012, 07:38 AM
So... anyone know if the bug that resets badass points is fixed? Or what triggers it? Heard about that and am hesitant to go back in until it is fixed.

That actually happened to me and it sorta sucks..... Not sure what caused it :?

Shooop
27-09-2012, 02:49 PM
That actually happened to me and it sorta sucks..... Not sure what caused it :?

It's a rare bug Gearbox said they weren't even aware of until people on the forums brought it up.

Finicky
28-09-2012, 12:00 AM
Edit... nvm there's a bug with maya's phaselock mind control that spoiler : causes the bot the floats around the boss (and keeps the shield up on him) to bug, if you kill it during mind control the shield doesn't get deactivated...

Has anyone finished the last boss on true vault hunter mode? I'm stuck... I can't seem to hurt him. Checked youtube and google but only found one video and there he also goes immune but they keep shooting him and it goes away for some reason.

spoiler: Handsome jack puts up a reflective shield that doesn't seem to wear off ever (been watching and trying all element types and grenades on him for 15 mins, nothing) . The shield just stays up and nothing harms him.
I searched for buttons or something to blow up but there is nothing.

He didn't have the shield ability in the first playthrough as far as I remember.

Dubbill
28-09-2012, 11:14 PM
Randy's tweeting (https://twitter.com/DuvalMagic) gold key codes for Shift if you're interested. They should be up in about 1 min as of the time of this post and will work for 30 mins.

Edit: or it may not work. Keep an eye on his Twitter :)

Finicky
29-09-2012, 11:50 PM
Don't bother with golden chest keys... they have the same type or random junk purple loot as any random bosskill. They just waste peoples time having them do tricks for twitter/facebook hits like dogs.

If you really want to open the stupid box then give yourself an extra key through cheat engine... unless you have some compulsive need to get the key through twitter or it 'wouldn't be the same', in that case tap the floor 3x with your left foot, scratch your nose 3x with your right hand and finally dial the number to a psychologist 3x to help you with your mental issues.

On topic: seems the game becomes less and less stable as your savefile/playtime increases.
Getting long freezes when passing savepoints now (no problems for the first 2 regular playthroughs)and the game will crash as it tries to save upon exiting.

I should've waited for the goty edition.

Dubbill
30-09-2012, 08:05 AM
If you really want to open the stupid box then give yourself an extra key through cheat engine... unless you have some compulsive need to get the key through twitter or it 'wouldn't be the same', in that case tap the floor 3x with your left foot, scratch your nose 3x with your right hand and finally dial the number to a psychologist 3x to help you with your mental issues.
Crikey. He's just tweeting them. You don't even need a twitter account; copy and paste is the only interaction required. I think the three foot-taps on the floor are your knee jerking.

Kadayi
30-09-2012, 11:58 AM
New shift code..active in ten minutes or so, you have 2 hours to redeem it to collect a key: -

CBC3B-KKSFS-XTTTB-B3J33-RCW6R

https://twitter.com/DuvalMagic

Expired now apparently.

Kadayi
30-09-2012, 02:28 PM
Also got linked to this made me laugh: -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cLMiaW2ul0&feature=youtu.be&hd=1&t=3s

Kadayi
30-09-2012, 07:45 PM
SHiFT code for a Borderlands 2 Golden Key coming at 2pm CDT.

https://twitter.com/DuvalMagic

http://wwp.central-standard-time.com/central-daylight-time/

so about 15 minutes from now. :)

PS3: KT5B3-Z93ZB-FH3KB-STCT3-JWKZXWin

PC: KJ5TB-FKZXH-FB3JJ-TBJB3-6H5BH

X360: KT5B3-Z93WF-BF6JF-KXBT3-JWKXS

Seems that their servers are getting hammered so it might require some patience

Finicky
01-10-2012, 02:15 AM
So yeah: there is a bug that causes performance to decay as savegames become older (corruption happens which causes freezing and stuttering every time the save is being edited , at savepoints, when you load the game).
Wether or not your save becomes corrupted seems down to bad/good luck.
For me it didn't happen until I started pt 2.5.

My game had become so choppy that I gave up playing.
Decided to download a savegame for a lvl 50 gunzerker today and it's super smooth, load times are much shorter and there are no crashes or stutters...

They really should test these games before releasing them.

My own save is unedited (no bagspace increase or anything else), the gunzerker is edited (unlimited skillpoints, 70 bag space) so that doesn't seem to affect anything either.

So if your performance degraded/game started freezing and crashing, try a different save before reinstalling/switching to an older driver etc and all that asinine crap that usually gets suggested when a game that worked fine for a while shits the bed.

The JG Man
04-10-2012, 02:29 PM
So I've been playing Borderlands 2 (co-op) for a bit and I have a lot of flaws with the game, but I've noticed the one that is most troubling me is the fact that, actually...how many of the guns are actually fun? Where are the pistols with shotgun styled-firing? In fact, why do pistols mostly suck? Very few of the guns feel satisfying.

gundato
04-10-2012, 02:33 PM
I think one problem was that BECAUSE of the mashers, there was little reason to use a lot of the other guns.

For me, I only ever really used pistols, revolvers, shotguns (maybe), and SMGs. Because assault rifles were just SMGs with lower rates of fire and longer reload times. Sniping was boring and launchers were too situational.

A few strong enemies: Repeaters or revolver with masher
A horde: SMG
Single strong enemy: Revolver (with or without masher) or shotgun


In Borderlands 2, I find myself using everything but launchers (way too little ammo). I use pistols occasionally (mostly as a dedicated type of elemental damage), and snipers are really useful against crystallisks

The JG Man
04-10-2012, 03:05 PM
Granted mashers were very potent, but they could've balanced them. They clearly tried to be creative elsewhere, but dismally failed; assault rifles that fire bullets in a curve upwards and then fall on the enemy? Awful, awful, awful. They needed to make the other weapons better, not the revolvers worse. All I can say is that with the tweaked animations and the the Jackobs fire-as-quick-as-you-can to prop up the pistols, they've been made almost redundant otherwise. I ultimately feel though that all the guns just feel like they've been held back some way. I actually find myself not terribly excited by getting a new gun, more a case of "oh, higher stats. Yay." Not that I've played Diablo 3, but wasn't this a complaint that many had with that?

All I can think is that a lot of the creative stuff is left till the later levels/playthroughs, which seems so terribly broken to me.

Oh, and I agree with you on the launchers. Shame they neutered the ammo for those and made it otherwise rather expensive to buy.

Flint
04-10-2012, 03:26 PM
Maybe I've just had good luck but I had a lot of brilliant pistols and revolvers during my playthrough. There's some really fun unique ones too: the Fibber which has fairly standard base damage (don't believe the description's lies) but the bullets bounce off walls and do about 11k+ critical damage, and the toxic gun with homing bullets you get from the treasure hunt quest and which is powerful enough to bring down Buzzards with ease, to name a few. Generally I feel rather the opposite; the first Borderlands had really boring weapons in my opinion whereas this you had that excitement over loot because of the multitude of ways the guns can now behave and the often far more unique unique weapons (they could still go far, far crazier and inventive with this than they have done but it's certainly an improvement anyway).

Finished the first playthrough a tad back. Loved the game. It's pretty much Borderlands but improved in every single way, from gameplay mechanics to the story (this actually has one!) and writing. Everything I wanted. One of the my favourite games of the year. Will probably take a little break, then either continue with the New Game+ mode or start a new character.

Shooop
04-10-2012, 06:18 PM
The badass system is a great idea too.

Completed all the challenges? Make another character and they're reset! But the rank is account-bound so you keep the rank and all the stat boosts for any character you have!

Have no life and want a 50% shield boost for all your characters? Yes you can you crazy, crazy shut-in you.

I think someone in Gearbox even said they want the player to become ridiculously overpowered if they keep playing. I like that person.

The JG Man
04-10-2012, 07:45 PM
I like some of the challenges, but some of them are just straight up stupid. "Hey, go hunt around the map for silly to get to or unnecessarily small symbols. And if you like that, here's that quest a few times with some unique items specific to this region!" What's that about? Exploration should be natural to a game. Encourage it, sure, but I want it to be more rewarding than "You found 1 out of 3 stupid signs!" For the most part though, it's a great idea and I like that you can freely choose what to upgrade.

In fact, that's a lot of my problem with BL2. Ideas are almost all great, but I find the execution lacking in some way. A lot of the areas feel soul-less, which I find deeply ironic considering how barren BL1 was (but they did it oh-so-well). The new enemies provide a nice variety, but some are more annoying to fight than simply creative. Sure, you're only ever going to be shooting your gun with a throw in of your skill, but that means the emphasis is on not screwing that part up. A good example would be the robots, who all contain lots of variety amongst them and are enjoyable to fight. Take some of the natural inhabitants and that maybe isn't quite the same. Vehicles still handle like pants too; WASD for movement. It's really, really not hard.

Then we have the characters and the dialogue which tries way, way too hard. It's like they honed in on the really zany stuff from 1, which only worked amongst what else was happening, and applied only that. The funniest moments, I feel, come from when they're not trying as hard as they possibly can. I also can't pin down the feel of the game. BL1 had the dust-bowl, desolate barrens, outlaw vibe going for it so damn well. Here, I feel like the levels are all dis-jointed and connect only because they do. What's going on here? I also don't know why everyone is praising the plot. So far, it's as ridiculous as the first. Not that I particularly cared for the plot of the first game (and didn't mind that fact) but this is clearly building up to something that'll likely have a silly pay-off, but because of the seriousness of it all, will probably be less enjoyable.

I will say though that the music is excellent. Some really good stuff in the mix. I feel like I agree with Jeff Gerstmann on the Giant Bomb podcast when he was discussing it. He sounded down on it throughout, but had to affirm at the end that he still enjoyed it. For whatever reason reason, the issues I have with the game seem really glaring, even though at the core of it, it's still legitimately fun.

BenWah
04-10-2012, 09:37 PM
I usually like to complain about games but i am having way too much fun with this one

archonsod
05-10-2012, 07:48 AM
They clearly tried to be creative elsewhere, but dismally failed; assault rifles that fire bullets in a curve upwards and then fall on the enemy?

That would be a mortar. Assault rifle now seems to cover everything from mini-rocket launchers to actual assault rifles.

Kadayi
05-10-2012, 01:50 PM
Vehicles still handle like pants too; WASD for movement. It's really, really not hard.

I must admit the whole mouse thing is kind of annoying, however I'm surprised you're not a fan given how much you always want to drive JG.

The JG Man
05-10-2012, 02:29 PM
That would be a mortar. Assault rifle now seems to cover everything from mini-rocket launchers to actual assault rifles.

I think the mortar is unwieldly. So slow was the AR I had that fired it that by the time you've lined up the shot, the enemy moved. It could do 10x the damage, but if it doesn't hit, it's utterly pointless. I am surprised at the mix ARs are given. It does feel like they shoe-horned all of the variety of weapons into ARs too...


I must admit the whole mouse thing is kind of annoying, however I'm surprised you're not a fan given how much you always want to drive JG.

It's mostly that despite this, the environments are quite fun to drive in. Chasing bandits around in The Dust (literally and figuratively) is a fun experience. Fortunately, despite pants control, there's enough space to thrash around the vehicles.

Dubbill
05-10-2012, 02:46 PM
I think the mortar is unwieldly. So slow was the AR I had that fired it that by the time you've lined up the shot, the enemy moved. It could do 10x the damage, but if it doesn't hit, it's utterly pointless. I am surprised at the mix ARs are given. It does feel like they shoe-horned all of the variety of weapons into ARs too...
I've found a few shotguns with explosive ammo that have the same problem with slow projectiles. Of course shotties should be used up-close but moving forward too fast leaves you exposed when more enemies spawn. I've found melee to be pretty useless for the same reason.

I like the vehicle handling. There's rarely any need for precision driving. Hooning around using turbo at every opportunity and crashing instead of parking is good fun.

Flint
05-10-2012, 03:05 PM
The explosive ammo that moves slow but does a lot of damage is Torque's little gimmick*, it's in all of their guns. If you can wield it and time your shots well enough it can be really good (for a fair while I used a Torque revolver with loads of damage) but personally, I prefer more precise control over my shots as a sniper/generally accurate git.

* this is another thing that I really like, that each gunmaker clearly has their own personality now in mechanics, looks and even naming

Kadayi
05-10-2012, 08:31 PM
More shift codes this weekend: -

Specifically, we'll be posting codes on 10/5 at 6PM and 11PM CT and on 10/6 at 5AM, 11AM and 3PM CT.

Which if my math is correct translates as: -

11 PM, 4 AM, 10 AM, 4PM and 8PM GMT. (though I could be wrong). So potentially 5 gold keys for any weekend insomniacs.

Codes will be up at gearboxes twitter: -

https://twitter.com/GearboxSoftware

bear in mind UK is on GMT+1 BST atm so we're -6 hours rather than -5 on the clock (presently 8.40 UK time and 2.40 CT time).

RedRobin
06-10-2012, 01:09 AM
I find myself playing this game as it is another diablo 3? Does any one else feel that way? I loved it at first and now that im done its like.. Eh.. what now?

Finicky
06-10-2012, 06:41 AM
I find myself playing this game as it is another diablo 3? Does any one else feel that way? I loved it at first and now that im done its like.. Eh.. what now?
That's because it basically diablo, but with a talented art team behind it , meaningful loot and good gameplay instead of clickclickclick tardfest gameplay.

The JG Man
07-10-2012, 02:54 PM
I also don't know why everyone is praising the plot. So far, it's as ridiculous as the first. Not that I particularly cared for the plot of the first game (and didn't mind that fact) but this is clearly building up to something that'll likely have a silly pay-off, but because of the seriousness of it all, will probably be less enjoyable.

Having just completed the 'Where Angels Fear To Tread' mission, I'm almost disappointed by predicting my lack of enjoyment from it. So here's the thing about Handsome Jack; he's an asshole. We get that. Everyone gets that. They should get that from the opening cut-scene, but there are so many things to let us know. Many of them are incredibly effective too. His pointless murder of Helena Pierce and other civilians off-screen, his merciless killing of Bloodwing and the captivity of his own damn daughter, a Siren no less, the murdering of Roland and the kidnapping of Lilith.

Now that first spoiler is actually effective as it takes something away from us, particularly those who played as them from the first game, and spurs us on to take out Jack. We'll have our revenge and we'll help the character particularly affected get it too. The second spoiler? What the hell is going on? Less is more, Gearbox. That entire sequence of events is so baffling, so utterly stupid that it manages to suppose that it might even create plot-holes for the first game...and that didn't even have much of a plot! Then there's all the plot-holes and use of logic that comes up in 2 from that scene too. It's such a mess.

My main issue is that too much happens in it than there needs to be to both: 1) Provoke a strong emotional reaction and 2) Further our desire to kill Jack. Then there's the fact that it's just adding on to the end of the conga-line of mocking the original vault haunters. Urgh. There's a nuanced intelligence that was present in BL1 that seems to be missing in 2. Case in point, at the end of 1 when you reach Commandant Steele at the Vault, her subtitles carry on past the point she actually dies. It's a very, very simple technique of subverting the limitations of a game. It exists in BL2 as well at times considering how many of the characters so blatantly break the fourth wall, but hey, it works. Jump forward to Where Angels Fear To Tread and it couldn't have been made any more obvious Roland was going to die in the build up to Angel, but the entire sequence where he's talking, right in front of us and then just gets shot because yes. There is absolutely no use of logic here for a game that realises it's a game and has demonstrated it beforehand.

In BL1, the plot seldom got in the way of the game. Here, I feel like the plot is actively draining any fun I'm getting out of it. I've listed all the drawbacks I feel there is already, can't be bothered to do it again. Is this year the year of the disappointing sequel? Of the four I've played (Mass Effect 3, Darksiders 2, Torchlight 2 and now this) only one of them has proven to not be disappointing (TL2). Of the other three, they all had narrative/plot issues, to varying degrees.

Shooop
08-10-2012, 04:59 AM
I find myself playing this game as it is another diablo 3? Does any one else feel that way? I loved it at first and now that im done its like.. Eh.. what now?
It is Diablo as a first person shooter. That's what the first was, and now the second. What makes it is its stupid-huge assortment of weapons and items and how much better it gets with 4 players.

shaydeeadi
10-10-2012, 11:57 PM
Having just defeated the final boss, I was rewarded a shotgun that was worth using!! This makes the game completely better than the original! I skipped loads of the sidequests and am now a little underleveled for TVH mode but it's ok since the challenge makes it more exiting!

The game has also spat out lots of Assault Rifles that shoot various rockets, they are excellent fallbacks for my Zer0 when I get surrounded and also brilliant for sound and visuals, if a little weak. I had a little eyeroller in Fyrestone when you fight Saturn, who seemed to have silly HP and almost was designed to be cheesed to death. Again, the final boss dropping worthwhile loot sealed this as an improvement over the original in almost every way. I'm umming and aahing over getting a Season Pass.

Zer0, my thoughts: He doesn't really play too well with others but seems to excel solo, maybe it is just me. Once I had his dash unlocked and plenty of points in to man stabbing I can completely murder enemies sometimes a level above me from deception. It's a shame that so much of the fun stuff for him is hidden behind maxing the trees out. I also struggled to see a reason to use other than the 'xxx survivor' class mods as the health regeneration is so handy when constantly in the midst of CQC.

I like him mostly because Bloodshed specced Zer0 is pretty much what I wanted to do with Lilith (where her phase walk was really an escape and an opportunity to layer shield removing damage concurrently) on the first game but it didn't work out too well, her backstab was too weak even when maxed but they seem to have just got it right (with the right skills) this time around with Zer0.

The JG Man
11-10-2012, 12:59 AM
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/541815026726981833/E415BD38011CFE28C0DEE162D7D0FA442E82F6C2/

Despite being in co-op, I was one-shotting basic mooks with my pistol, turned my SMG into a pure-death-spewing machine and made my sniper rifle into God's own arm. Don't even get me started on the shotgun damage upgrade.

neema_t
11-10-2012, 09:18 AM
I cannot stop playing Borderlands 2. 113 hours in three weeks, considering I have college every day (except weekends) from 8.20am to 6pm that's... Yeah. It's now my second most-played game on Steam and I imagine within a month from now it will have also overtaken Battlefield 3 (I'm on about 270 hours).

shaydeeadi
11-10-2012, 10:18 AM
2016
This shotgun releases a cloud of explosions
2017
That look like this, excellent crowd control.

Kadayi
11-10-2012, 01:51 PM
Finished the game early this morning with JG and Sceptrum (honorable mentions to Simmura, Jockie & Unfocussed). Overall enjoyed it, though I'd say that there's a fair amount of redundancy in the design (don't try and sell me items unless I'm even remotely likely to buy them Marcus), and a tad too much to - and - fro at times through areas that you have largely levelled beyond (they could of done with some scaling thrown in there both in terms of enemies as well as drops). On the positives, Jack = great Villian , Claptrap = less annoying and kind of fun (the sequence at the end was particularly lol worthy) and visually = a treat and one that ran a lot better than BL1. I wouldn't say it's a must play, but if you enjoyed the first game then you'd probably enjoy the second though the main story is largely forgettable.

Shooop
11-10-2012, 02:56 PM
Zer0, my thoughts: He doesn't really play too well with others but seems to excel solo, maybe it is just me. Once I had his dash unlocked and plenty of points in to man stabbing I can completely murder enemies sometimes a level above me from deception. It's a shame that so much of the fun stuff for him is hidden behind maxing the trees out. I also struggled to see a reason to use other than the 'xxx survivor' class mods as the health regeneration is so handy when constantly in the midst of CQC.

I like him mostly because Bloodshed specced Zer0 is pretty much what I wanted to do with Lilith (where her phase walk was really an escape and an opportunity to layer shield removing damage concurrently) on the first game but it didn't work out too well, her backstab was too weak even when maxed but they seem to have just got it right (with the right skills) this time around with Zer0.

He does good enough with others if you know what you're doing with him. He's either a melee fighter or sniper depending on which skill tree you decide to go all the way with.

If more melee-based, go after tougher enemies with deception and hit them in the back for bonus damage. This is always a good thing for any team for obvious reasons. Maxing out bloodlust means you can kill all the pawns in a room in seconds which leaves only the toughest guy for you and your team to focus on.

neema_t
13-10-2012, 05:34 PM
Maxing out bloodlust means you can kill all the pawns in a room in seconds which leaves only the toughest guy for you and your team to focus on.

... Which isn't always the best idea because it's nice to have Second Wind fodder for some bosses.

Long story short, I have a Lv50 Zer0 with:

- Bloodshed maxed out and two or three points in C0unter Strike
- A class mod with +40% melee damage, something else, 5 Backstab and 3 Resurgence points (+80% melee damage from behind and up to 35% health restored per melee kill in total)
- Relatively low level Law revolver (+100% melee damage) and Order shield (>10k maylay damage bonus, restores health with each melee attack when used with a Law)
- +7.8% melee and +7.4% critical hit damage with Badass tokens.

He's just crazily good, but would suck if it weren't for the Law and Order combo because there have been so many times where I would have died many times over if I hadn't been restoring health with each hit. I'm considering taking skill points out of Like Water, because I rarely remember to alternate between melee and shooting, and Resurgence (because the effect of the Law and Order combo means I never need it for restoring health) and finding somewhere else to put them to better use. Maybe I'll see if I can use them to get to Deathmark to make him play more nicely with Salvador and Axton.

I've found Zer0 works really well with Maya's action skill but is pretty unremarkable when paired with Axton or Salvador. Maya's skill tree kind of makes it important to have high single-hit damage to kill the target before the singularity effect wears off, so Zer0 works well in that respect. That's just how I feel about it anyway. He's definitely a great character for playing solo, but if you've invested all your points and time into melee only then you'll need help with a few bosses.

ambing1
14-10-2012, 12:43 AM
I still can't get over the DLC issues on XBox version about 2 weeks ago. is it fixed yet?
everytime i play game it also freezes. tried calling MS but did not get any effective fix.

ambing1
14-10-2012, 01:05 AM
-Too many suicide enemies. This is a shooter. You have one basic melee strike. Yet 50% of the enemies you will fight will insist on rushing you as fast as possible. Some will explode suicide-bomber style and others will just pound you. Regardless of their purpose there are simply too many melee/suicide rushers in this game, period, and it gets annoying at times.

yeah. there's certainly an imbalance in the number of suicide bombers in this game than it should normally have.

Mohorovicic
15-10-2012, 09:40 AM
Okay fuck this.

This is the third time I ragequit the game now. I gave it enough chances, more than I should and definitely more than it deserved. No, I didn't finish it, and now I know I never will, and I don't give a damn because it's a mediocre game at best. It's Borderlands: Worse Everything Edition. Literally everything, down to minute details like how your health bar looks(it was more readable and stylish in Borderlands). I could make a huge list of all the minor things that are worse but I won't. But I could. Yes that is a reference to what Jack says that one time.

Let's just focus on all the biggest offenders here to keep it "short".

The story is epic. Question: did a game like Borderlands, with cartoony graphics and firearm vending machines needed an epic story? Answer: no, in fact that's the last thing it needed. The story in the original was very simple - there is a Vault, which is very mysterious, so go find it. Yes, you do end up saving some poor sods on the way and decimated the local bandit population. Yes, you do come in conflict with a megacorp at the end. But it's all mostly on-the-way questing and a conflict of interest. BL2 forces the role of a world-saving hero on you pretty much from the start. You are a Vault Hunter, which apparently is a social status equivalent to a young adopted man from a backwater village that was just burned to the ground while you were out picking up mushrooms in a typical fantasy game. Suddenly everything rests on your shoulders and every other character in the game is an impotent tool that can do naught but look at you in awe. The first thing Roland says to you is that if you do x for him "you'll earn your place in the Crimson Raiders". Wait, I give a fuck about your resistance since when? I thought I was here for the Vault. That's kind of implied in the name of Vault Hunter. And aren't YOU a Vault Hunter? Why are you not looking for the Vault?

I also like how the game takes a huge steaming dump on the prequel. Apparently everything you did in the first game was just a part of Jack's Master Plan and Angel was using you all along. Well that'll be nice to know if I ever want to replay Borderlands! Oh yeah and also Roland dies in the sequel, so sucks for whoever liked to play as him I guess.

The tone of the game is all over the place. Newsflash: Borderlands wasn't funny. It had funny bits, yes, and it was generally light-hearted with a few exceptions, but it never really tried hard at comedy. BL DLCs were first offenders in that department - but still kept the "humor" down to manageable levels. But Borderlands 2 is just all balls out in your face with the funny, and it's not the funny kind of funny either. Juvenile, often forced humor and blatantly obvious popculture references reign supreme, and so do "awesome" things(note: "awesome" as perceived by a fourteen years old). At the other hand, we get to listen to Jack's amazing adventures of shooting people in the head or gouging someone's eyes in front of their children. Oh I get it he's the bad guy, right? You know, Steele and the Crimson Lance in BL were hardly saints either but this is just trying too hard. "Trying too hard", yes, that's a perfect way to describe most of what's going on in this game.

The game also fails to explain any of the backstory of Pandora. In BL you learned who colonized it, why, and what's with the bandits everywhere, and why some of them are fucking crazy mutants, and even why there are so many things that want to eat you around. BL2? Flash-freeze is mentioned once but never explained, and that's as far as it goes. Most of megacorps were changed, some were completely retconned from existence it seems(Atlas, S&S).

Speaking of megacorps, they were all made equal. Well, in theory. In BL there were corporations that were clearly better than others - Tediore was common trash with a crappy bonus(reload speed) while Hyperion guns were rare but with huge bonuses to accuracy in general(that is both accuracy stat and recoil reduction). In BL2 they are all on the same level, except real world doesn't work that way and some picks are still clearly better than others, so the entire changing and mixing of what worked well was completely in vain. Oh and the guns now look much more stylized, which mostly means they look borderline retarded.

Speaking of guns, BL2 loves to tell you how to play and force you to use either a certain weapon or a certain element. The first game had weapon proficiency, so you were rewarded by sticking to a single kind of weapon; the trade-off being of course that you didn't have anything else if you needed it(well, unless you decided to go with pistols, since that gave you access to mini SMGs, mini sniper rifles, and mini shotguns all in one proficiency). The sequel likes to make you kill stuff the way it wants to. Kill that guy with a pistol, the other guy with a shotgun, slag that guy, set these dudes on fire. Yep, less meaningful choices and being forced to play the game wants me to instead of how I want to, that's the recipe for success. Despite changes to elemental weapons they still suck because there's greater diversity of elemental enemies and they consume two ammo per shot. Ammo is a real issue too, you don't get more drops of the ammo you have least of like you did in Borderlands, and relying on one weapon is nigh impossible. Well unless it's Jakobs and you only go for crits or something. I mean really? Is Borderlands the kind of game where you should worry about ammo? Also, no passive reload, the game could use some.

The combat itself was turned into a boring sleuch at best, and severly dumbed down pissing contest at worst. A typical combat scenario in Borderlands looked like this: You see enemy camp with x dudes. You aggro them. Several more dudes come out of tents to reinforce their allies. You kill them all and move on. A typical combat scenario in BL2 looks like this: You see enemy camp with x dudes. You aggro them. Once you kill several, more come out of tents to reinforce. Then several more. And several more. Once everyone is finally dead, you move on, only to cross a magic line which causes enemies to spawn in a different part of camp slightly further ahead. The game slows down considerably when facing human enemies and basically turns into a cover-based shooter. The difference is cover-based shooters don't have enemies that can take several bullets to the head and still keep going, so you end up standing behind a chest high cover and pewpewing away for minutes at a time. Theoretically there are two mechanics to prevent this: AI thrown grenades and melee enemies. In practice, grenades do next to no damage and melee enemies... well that's where the "dumbed down" part comes in. In Borderlands, most melee attacks could be dodged. As a trade-off, they did a lot of damage. A single Psycho who somehow got to you could fuck your shit up in seconds; in fact I'm fairly sure it was hardcoded that a single swing of his axe takes away all your shields, no matter the actual value. In BL2, melee attacks cannot be dodged. As a trade-off, they do about as much damage as getting shot, turning Psychos from an actual menace into generic enemies with really short range. The fact that melee attacks cannot be dodged also makes combat with critters a joke - gone are the days of Dancing With Skags, DPS is all that matters, kill them before they get to you, zero strategy and very little skill involved. This also means you're forced to shoot critters instead of melee-ing them, which loops back to the ammo scarcity issues. Also: since the game has been made for consoles with the FoV of 70, on PC with FoV of 90+ the enemy swings in the air 2 meters ahead of you and you still get hit despite the attack clearly not connecting. Because lolFOV. Smooth.

Character skill trees have been made worse. Quick reminder of BL skill trees (http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/101/1015650/borderlands-20090819115208674.jpg) - three trees; three pairs per tree, then the ultimate. In BL2 not only it takes five maxed skills instead of three to reach the ultimate (http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/39/2265654-bl2_skilltree_pink_v2.jpg), the last two usually don't have alternatives. Result? You will have to either take something that is almost useless - either in general or for your playstyle - or you might end up oversaturated on a certain aspect of your character. If I wanted to make a support Siren in BL2 for example, I'd pick Harmony tree and on each tier: Sweet Release(killing Phaselocked enemies drops health orbs), Restoration(+Health, shooting heals allies) and Elated(health regen for entire team when an enemy is Phaselocked). But to get to the ultimate skill, now I'm funneled into taking Sustenance(health regen) and Life Tap(life steal after a kill) which I simply do not need at this point since I already have three skills that keep my(and my team's) health up in one way or another.

Difficulty is all over the place. Generally the game is as easy as standing behind a wooden box and lining up headshots but sometimes the game drops a boss or a badass that will simply kill you without you being able to do anything about it in seconds. I remember the Vorkid boss the Tiny Tina(HAHAHAHAHA 13-YEAR OLD GIRL WHO LIKE MAKES EXPLOSIVES AND KILLS STUFF JUXTAPOSITION HUMOR IS HILARIOUS) sends you to kill dropping me to 1 Health in one shot. Ranged shot. With AoE, so impossible to dodge. I had what, over 1k HP in both shields and health, and I was one level ahead of it. Really?

What else? Indoor levels are much bigger, which is a pain in the ass when you have to backtrack longer to sell all the shit you picked up. They also give the enemies much more time and space(I'm not entirely sure if it's based on proximity or a timer or both) to respawn. Fun times. The tutorial is garbage; there's literally a timer on the boxes so you don't close them too soon if you happen to have ADD, and if the tutorial tells you how to do a certain action you have to press the appropiate button(i.e. to close the map tutorial you have to press M), not to mention the tutorial technically lasts all the way up to Sanctuary, which can be up to 7 hours of gameplay. Claptrap is now genuinely annoying, and so is the white everywhere because snow. The UI is pure form over function and clearly designed with consoles in mind. The game is based on one of world's worst gaming engines, and it strikes back with a vengeance with invisible geometry; this is especially noticeable when driving, but you can sometimes get stuck on a flat surface even when on foot. There are places where you can get stuck and the only way out is to quit and respawn.

Final verdict: Will probably be named FPS GOTY 2012. Score: two ink pens out of five verses from John Wayne Gacy Jr. by Sufjan Stevens.

shaydeeadi
15-10-2012, 12:45 PM
Surely Roland would just respawn though? Maybe he got lost on the way back to Sanctuary? Think about that.....

Metalfish
15-10-2012, 06:30 PM
This may just be me, but I'm having a hard time grokking the idea that someone who appears to have really liked the first one can have such an explosively negative reaction to the sequel. They're very similar games.

gundato
15-10-2012, 06:33 PM
Surely Roland would just respawn though? Maybe he got lost on the way back to Sanctuary? Think about that.....
Actually, some deleted content (on Reddit, found it from the TV Tropes page) explains most of it

The New Vault Hunters can respawn because Angel snuck them into the system/Handsome Jack needed them to be alive long enough to deliver the trojan power core. Its the same reason Wilhelm, who wiped out all of New Haven singlehandedly, was a trivial boss battle.

After Angel's death, Handsome Jack keeps you in the system because he wants you to live long enough for HIM to kill you.

Roland died after Angel died, so that was enough time for Jack to flush the system and get rid of the Old Vault Hunters.

And the New Vault Hunters manage to avoid dying in between Angel's death and Jack's vendetta.

Obviously this poses a problem during the final battle, but one can argue that Handsome Jack wanted you to suffer multiple deaths (or is just an idiot).

The JG Man
15-10-2012, 06:52 PM
I agree with a lot of what you say there, Mohorovicic. I did find though that late game, when I had a lot of skill points and decent guns, my enjoyment went up a rather large amount. The game does a really bad job of making you feel powerful. I'm not saying you need to start obliterating everything at level 1, but just something was off there. I don't believe it's any worse than 1, but I wouldn't say it was a hell of a lot better either. Better and worse in different categories.

gundato, whilst that deleted content makes sense to a degree, it seems utterly ridiculous that between the time Angel and Roland dies, Jack goes into the system and deletes Roland. We're talking a minute, if that and Jack was quite clearly pre-occupied with Angel over Roland. It was also absolutely stupid that in that scene, I couldn't do anything to help. What makes this worse is that I did it in 3-player co-op.

What I can see happening, as I've seen briefly discussed in a few places, is that one of the DLC covers finding a way of getting Roland back into the system and bringing him back. His death is so utterly pointless in a scene already jam-packed with stuff. I really thought that sequence was poorly handled, unlike what happened with Bloodwing which I thought was done well.

gundato
15-10-2012, 07:01 PM
I agree with a lot of what you say there, Mohorovicic. I did find though that late game, when I had a lot of skill points and decent guns, my enjoyment went up a rather large amount. The game does a really bad job of making you feel powerful. I'm not saying you need to start obliterating everything at level 1, but just something was off there. I don't believe it's any worse than 1, but I wouldn't say it was a hell of a lot better either. Better and worse in different categories.

gundato, whilst that deleted content makes sense to a degree, it seems utterly ridiculous that between the time Angel and Roland dies, Jack goes into the system and deletes Roland. We're talking a minute, if that and Jack was quite clearly pre-occupied with Angel over Roland. It was also absolutely stupid that in that scene, I couldn't do anything to help. What makes this worse is that I did it in 3-player co-op.

What I can see happening, as I've seen briefly discussed in a few places, is that one of the DLC covers finding a way of getting Roland back into the system and bringing him back. His death is so utterly pointless in a scene already jam-packed with stuff. I really thought that sequence was poorly handled, unlike what happened with Bloodwing which I thought was done well.

Well, if we start getting into "magic hollywood computer" land:

Let's assume that it is easier to stop a deletion than to undo a deletion. Which at least makes sense.
Now let's assume that Angel's approach was "Repeatedly tell the system to ignore Jack's request to delete everyone". That sort of makes sense: The system is designed so she can't undo Jack's orders, but she can delay them (indefinitely). Maybe as simple as constantly moving the program from server to server across the galaxy.

Now she dies, and she is no longer doing that. The order goes through, the Old Vault Hunters are deleted.

The JG Man
15-10-2012, 08:01 PM
I'm not saying I don't see it as not being possible, but that they plotted themselves into a corner with it. Also, Angel's not in it?! They couldn't come up with one, even contrived, reason as to why??

gundato
15-10-2012, 08:08 PM
I'm not saying I don't see it as not being possible, but that they plotted themselves into a corner with it. Also, Angel's not in it?! They couldn't come up with one, even contrived, reason as to why??

Oh, anything with respawning is guaranteed to get stupid. No arguments there.

All I can think of for Angel is that Handsome Jack never saw the need (arrogance that nobody could ever get to her, which was pretty justified considering the security precautions), Angel deleted herself (she WAS committing suicide by gunzerker...), or all the Eridium affected her magic super-DNA so that she couldn't be reconstituted (which could also explain why the Original Vault Hunters are un-resurrectable too. They have been exposed to too much eridium).

The JG Man
15-10-2012, 08:31 PM
Why wasn't this in the game? Sure, show, don't tell, but still.

The way I feel with plots in games is that if you're going to go to the effort of doing one, you do it properly, otherwise don't bother. Whilst BL1 didn't have a plot, not really, it was enough of a reason to carry on playing. 2's got so silly at times that I just felt like calling it out every time it did something stupid, or didn't want to tell us something useful. It's weird too because they do some really great stuff in there, with the Willhelm twist being pretty well done up until you got back to Sanctuary.

gundato
15-10-2012, 08:46 PM
Why wasn't this in the game? Sure, show, don't tell, but still.

The way I feel with plots in games is that if you're going to go to the effort of doing one, you do it properly, otherwise don't bother. Whilst BL1 didn't have a plot, not really, it was enough of a reason to carry on playing. 2's got so silly at times that I just felt like calling it out every time it did something stupid, or didn't want to tell us something useful. It's weird too because they do some really great stuff in there, with the Willhelm twist being pretty well done up until you got back to Sanctuary.

There was apparently text in some magic file, but I think not including it was the right decision.

Why NVH can respawn: Too expository and might reveal the twist early
Why OVH can't respawn: Would sound WAY too expository and would get into pseudo-logic (as we just did :p) and wouldn't provide anything more beyond "power of plot"
Why Angel can't respawn: She doesn't want to

Instead, you operate on the conditions assumed by video gaming: You are special