PDA

View Full Version : The bar gets buried a bit deeper : Season pass 2.0



Finicky
24-09-2012, 05:45 PM
Sauce: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-09-24-borderlands-2-season-pass-upcoming-character-vehicle-dlc


Borderlands 2 developer Gearbox has hinted at several upcoming DLC packs which won't be covered by the game's Season Pass.

Gearbox boss Randy Pitchford explained that additional DLC will include additional characters, like the already-revealed Mechromancer (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-09-11-gearbox-shows-off-borderlands-2-mechromancer-final-design-reveals-her-name).

"We will have other, non-season pass related DLC. The additional character (Mechromancer) is one kind of example," Pitchford said in a reader Q&A on Kotaku (http://kotaku.com/5944891/randy-pitchford-ceo-of-the-company-that-made-borderlands-2-is-answering-your-questions-right-here), and added that more characters were "likely".

"Since we finished the game, we've started with some new ideas that we expect will show up in DLC. Some new vehicle types are on-deck - [it's] awesome stuff."
Borderlands 2's Season Pass, which costs about 20 depending on your plaform of choice, merely covers the game's four major expansions.



Why use the term season pass if it doesn't cover part of the dlc?

This is why I don't partake in 'DLC', the bar gets lowered more and more.
Blands 2 is a big game and the blands 1 dlc were more like expansion packs, everything that was dlc in blands 1 (arenas, size of the game) is in vanilla blands 2, so it could have been reasonable to charge for them.
But no.., this wouldn't be 2012 if they wouldn't nickle and dime people for all they have.

80-100 dollar games is no longer enough apparently (vanilla + season pass for every game since cod elite)...
Next up will be vanilla + season pass + dlc + cash shop and we'll be paying extra for bagspace and exp boosts to ease the pointless grind in our full price retail games, mark my words.

Give a finger, take an arm.

edit: for those going 'but gearbox mentioned the season pass included the 4 main DLCs'.
Yes, they very much did, but it's safe to assume that those who bought the season pack were assuming that the new class that was already hinted at before release would be included in the DLC...

SirKicksalot
24-09-2012, 05:49 PM
THQ did this with Saints Row 3.

Jesus_Phish
24-09-2012, 05:49 PM
Didn't Saints Row The Third also do this? I could very well be wrong, but didn't their Season Pass only include the "story" dlc and not the random cosmetic and weapon dlc?

To give credit to Blands 2 and Gearbox, 2k etc, at no point did they say the Season pass will give you all the content they make. It says "Grab the Borderlands 2 Season Pass and get access to four downloadable content packs for Borderlands 2 at one discounted price".

EDIT: Ninja'd on my first point!

Heliocentric
24-09-2012, 05:50 PM
Blands 2, heheh.

sabrage
24-09-2012, 05:54 PM
What's that? Wait for the GOTY re-release? Well, if you say so, Randy.

Finicky
24-09-2012, 06:00 PM
What's that? Wait for the GOTY re-release? Well, if you say so, Randy.

This is pretty much the only way to go to buy games these days in general.
You wait a year and get the full game with the bugs fixed and nothing cut out for a reasonable price.

I've been buying lots of goty editions or complete packs off steam during steam sales for 15 euros or less.
I still feel dirty for buying bf3 vanilla at release and getting a quarter of a game for my money(didn't buy any of the dlc and never will).

vinraith
24-09-2012, 06:01 PM
What's that? Wait for the GOTY re-release? Well, if you say so, Randy.

My read exactly.

Jesus_Phish
24-09-2012, 06:08 PM
How long will this last though.

It's something I've wondered. If enough people adopt the attitude of "wait for GOTY", then will enough people buy the initial release and the dlc for them to justify packaging the GOTY. I'm sure they will continue to do it, but it'd be interesting to see if it ever got to a point that people stopped buying new games on release and just waited out the year. Would that be the tipping point back away from silly amounts of DLC and back to full release on disc. Or worse, would we end up getting "first edition only dlc" where the GOTY wouldn't carry it.

Drake Sigar
24-09-2012, 06:12 PM
I liked the part where they said 'several'. Sounds like the season pass doesn't cover shit.

Rauten
24-09-2012, 06:59 PM
To me it sounds like the Season Pass will cover the stuff that'll be like the BL1 expansions/DLC, but then they'll go the THQ route and pile a crapton of extras on top and outside of it, only these guys will take it one step further by putting actually interesting stuff, like the Mechromancer, outside of the Season Pass DLC.

TL;DR: We like to bumrape our customers and get paid to do so, oh yes.

gundato
24-09-2012, 07:11 PM
Oy, if people would read past their first opportunity for indignation, they would understand it.

Season Pass covers expansion packs, essentially. Other tiny DLC like characters and vehicles are separate. I think the main RPS news article on this had people comparing this to REAL Season Passes that don';t cover things like away games and special magic post-season games. But that is sports and I don't understand sports that aren't coming out of my PS3.

internetonsetadd
24-09-2012, 07:15 PM
I've mentioned this here before, but I think it's worth repeating. The Max Payne 3 season pass was revised in such a way (planned DLC were consolidated) that the (still) stated 35% savings became a ~17% savings. It's hard to get excited about--or even palate--season passes if they're subject to change and not particularly comprehensive. "Buy all the DLC now and ["]SAVE["]! And then buy more!" No thanks.

QuantaCat
24-09-2012, 07:28 PM
This deal is getting worse all the time.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpE_xMRiCLE

shaydeeadi
24-09-2012, 07:34 PM
With Max Payne 3 I reckon they did that because the multiplayer community died on it's arse and that was what the DLC focused on, they pumped it out to try and keep it going, I'm not excusing it just speculating on why it happened.

I don't think the same will happen to Blands2, for me the season pass seems fine and if they are all really comparable to Knoxx in terms of size and content I don't think I'll feel cheated when I eventually pony up for the pack.

deano2099
24-09-2012, 07:47 PM
Well I for one would rather $20 for just the significant extra content, than pay $30 and get an extra class (let's face it, you're probably not going to play through the game with every class, so unless you really want that class, it'd be a waste) and a bunch of aesthetic stuff.

It seems quite sensible to me: season pass includes stuff that everyone will want to play through, extra stuff is extra so not factored into the cost of a season pass.

SirKicksalot
24-09-2012, 07:49 PM
When it appeared on Steam, the Season Pass was 10 Euros. I should have bought it then.

OrangyTang
24-09-2012, 07:51 PM
To be honest they would probably have been better off if they didn't call it a Season Pass. I don't know about anyone else but my understanding of any season pass is "access everything over a fixed amount of time", so releasing additional DLC while the season pass is still 'active' seems a bit rich.

Calling it the "Borderlands Expansion Mega Bundle" or something would probably have gone down better.

Also:

"We will have other, non-season pass related DLC. The additional character (Mechromancer) is one kind of example," Pitchford said in a reader Q&A on Kotaku (http://kotaku.com/5944891/randy-pitchford-ceo-of-the-company-that-made-borderlands-2-is-answering-your-questions-right-here), and added that more characters were "likely".
Gearbox really need to learn some basic psychology. People have just paid for the game and possibly four bits of DLC to be released in the future - cock teasing them with yet more stuff to come that they need to pay for will make them feel bad. It doesn't matter if the game they've only just started is huge, or if the season pass ends up being fantastic value for money, hyping the next-next big thing you've got in the pipeline does no-one any good at this stage. Stick with talking up the season pass dlc since that's what people are anticipating.

Shooop
24-09-2012, 09:39 PM
Not touching any of the DLC promises or whatnot until I actually see them and can tell if they're actually worth having or not.

And is this a "pay now to get them later" deal or "pay now to pay for them again later" sham?

Finicky
24-09-2012, 09:53 PM
Btw this suggests another problem with the whole preorder/season pass shenanigans.
They should be worried about how they can sell the game to us (in general, not just gearbox), and maybe 1 or 2 or 6 months later they should be worried how they are going to sell the dlc to us.

Now the game is out for a few days and they are already skipping both those steps and are preoccupied with how to get the most amount of money on top of the game and the season pass, because they've already jadedly sold their 4 bits of dlc through the season pass to half a million suckers.
I'm going to reiterate the ' a fool and his money' quote from a few posts above.

60 dollar game + 30 dollar dlc if you buy it blindly (40 or more if you don't, I assume), the fact that they feel the need to still add extra 'options' on top of that price is pretty insulting. It's never enough , is it?

*cough, the organge box, cough*

Gearbox actually makes what I would call expansion packs, aka proper dlc.
But the stuff that is called dlc in 95 percent of other games (map packs , skins, sidequests), you know what that used to be called? A PATCH.

Jesus_Phish
24-09-2012, 10:00 PM
As long as they can make money off people they will try.

They're a business, why is that so difficult for people to grasp? I fully agree that if content is cut from a game to be sold later, yes that's shit. But let's not pretend that Borderlands 2 doesn't offer a full game experience for a full price release game. Do you need the DLC from the season pass. No. Do you need the DLC that won't be in the season pass? No. Will you moan about it and then buy it anyway? Quite possibly some of you will.

internetonsetadd
24-09-2012, 10:04 PM
With Max Payne 3 I reckon they did that because the multiplayer community died on it's arse and that was what the DLC focused on, they pumped it out to try and keep it going, I'm not excusing it just speculating on why it happened.

It seems pretty clear that's exactly what happened. Now, ostensibly, if you paid for the season pass you're still getting approximately what you paid for, you just happened to get less of a discount than they claimed it was (and still claim, for whatever reason--which caused me to second guess myself until I had checked, re-checked, and checked again).

Considering how BL2 is selling and likely to sell--and that its DLC's viability isn't dependent upon a separate multiplayer mode's doing well--I'm not particularly worried that its season pass will be downsized. I still don't like the upsell factor. If I knew they were all going to be Knoxx-sized, I'd consider it, but then that's the problem (I have) with DLC in general--they usually aren't.

Jesus_Phish
24-09-2012, 10:08 PM
I was happy with all the Borderlands 1 DLC bar Moxxies. Moxxies was ok as a time sink and that was it. The rest were all enjoyable and of a decent size. Though the first time through Knoxx went on a bit too long I felt. Not so bad second time around

ReV VAdAUL
24-09-2012, 10:22 PM
As long as they can make money off people they will try.

They're a business, why is that so difficult for people to grasp? I fully agree that if content is cut from a game to be sold later, yes that's shit. But let's not pretend that Borderlands 2 doesn't offer a full game experience for a full price release game. Do you need the DLC from the season pass. No. Do you need the DLC that won't be in the season pass? No. Will you moan about it and then buy it anyway? Quite possibly some of you will.

As someone said before, the issue is that of psychology, rubbing people's noses in the fact what they bought isn't the complete deal mere days after release is aggravating and unpleasant. Even more so is learning the DLC Season Pass doesn't actually cover all DLC, yeah sure they mentioned it only covered those four expansions but the didn't mention specifically what it wouldn't cover until a lot of people had likely bought it to go along with their pre-order.

The toy you unwrap at christmas that needs batteries you don't have always sucks. Heck, the theatrical cut of the Fellowship of the Ring was great and I really enjoyed it at the cinema but the really prominent advert for the extended edition on the DVD totally soured that version for me with all its' boasts of how incomplete and inferior the product I just bought was.

Finicky
24-09-2012, 10:32 PM
As long as they can make money off people they will try.

They're a business, why is that so difficult for people to grasp? I fully agree that if content is cut from a game to be sold later, yes that's shit. But let's not pretend that Borderlands 2 doesn't offer a full game experience for a full price release game. Do you need the DLC from the season pass. No. Do you need the DLC that won't be in the season pass? No. Will you moan about it and then buy it anyway? Quite possibly some of you will.

Businesses have a reputation, and rely on customer goodwill.
They sell novelty/entertainment/flavor products, not blood plasma or antibiotics, they exist due to their audiences goodwill and nothing else.
They have no inherent right to mine or anyone elses money or support, they have no reason to exist.

These days brand name doesn't seem to mean dogshit, IP names are milked for all they are worth, then the company is declared bankrupt without severance pay for the employees through loopholes, then a new company is started up that does the same.

Gearbox earns goodwill be selling a complete game but then tarnishes their rep by nickle and diming the people who support them. (noone can deny that that's what this is)
The two are not mutually exclusive, you know? The world is not entirely black and white... shades of grey....

And no, I personally won't be buying the season pass or the 'super extra bonus optional you really don't need this you know you got a full game' dlc, I might buy one of the 4 dlc expansions seperately.
Valve, gearbox and whomever made the broken steel DLC for fallout are the only people who can ever potentially sell me dlc, though I just bought the goty editions for fallout and blands 1 on a sale, but hey blands 1 created some goodwill for a possible future sale.
But I'm not paying anyone anything until I know what I'm buying.

The thing is, me buying any of their dlc is just enabling this behavior, and every other wanabe game dev is going to see the message too.
Look at the effect of cod elite and say it isn't true, go on, DO IT :p

I don't expect you or anyone else who defends this to understand though, the whole 'as long as I get mine' selfish attitude that has become so prevalent in western culture nurtures your behavior and is the reason for DLC, season passes , project 10 dollar etc 's very existance.

Noone gives a shit about intent or pride or motive anymore, nor of the consequences to their collective actions,they shrug off any responsibility and don't have any ability to sympathise with other people.

People who say it doesn't matter what they personally do: well fine then don't vote, don't pay taxes, don't stand up for elderly people on the bus because someone else will and your actions have no noticable effect on society.
As long as you get yours, right? =)

Then there are those who shrug it off as 'first world problems' or deal with it, I would have liked to have seen them say that to those union representatives who fought for the 38-40 hour work week 50 odd years ago.
LOL lazy fuckers don't want to work on saturdays , be happy you HAVE a job!
You'd get lynched.

Jesus_Phish
24-09-2012, 10:46 PM
At what point did Gearbox lie to you and tell you the season pass would contain all the DLC? And where is it written that "Season Pass" means all DLC? How are they nickle and diming you? Is Randy Pitchford going to hold a gun to your head and make you buy whatever chars/skins/weapons they put in the game outside of the 4 bigger DLCs?

They made it clear from the start that the "season pass" was for four major DLC updates, which would be of equal size to the first games.

Finicky
24-09-2012, 10:49 PM
People explained several times why they feel affronted, you just don't want to hear it and rehash your same few lines like a broken record.

shaydeeadi
24-09-2012, 10:57 PM
It isn't that much of an affront though since they have been upfront about what is in the season pass, which is 4 expansions to the game.

If they follow through with four 10-hour expansions it's reasonable value in this cold, unforgiving world.

ReV VAdAUL
24-09-2012, 10:58 PM
They made it clear from the start that the "season pass" was for four major DLC updates, which would be of equal size to the first games.

I'm honestly curious where, before today, they made it clear that the four majors pieces of DLC weren't the only pieces of DLC? I mean sure, in light of today's announcement there will be other DLC the clear statements about the season pass covering four big pieces of DLC can be seen in a different light but when before today was there even a hint there would be other DLC that wasn't covered by the pass?

deano2099
24-09-2012, 11:30 PM
As someone said before, the issue is that of psychology, rubbing people's noses in the fact what they bought isn't the complete deal mere days after release is aggravating and unpleasant.

The thing is, you have to remember some people react in different ways. You're broadly right. If I see DLC, I'll stop and consider if I should buy the game, or buy the game and DLC right away, or wait for a GOTY version. I sum up my options, then choose whichever is more appealing. Then I get on with enjoying the game. Not saying I don't think about it, but I'm perfectly capable of enjoying the single game with no added DLC without it making me feel aggravated or unpleasant. Honestly, I think most people are. There are some people that get really angry about it and that's okay. But they assume everyone else feels the same way. We don't. The presence of DLC doesn't make us feel anything.



I don't expect you or anyone else who defends this to understand though, the whole 'as long as I get mine' selfish attitude that has become so prevalent in western culture nurtures your behavior and is the reason for DLC, season passes , project 10 dollar etc 's very existance.

Some of us know that games are getting more expensive to make. We like the DLC system as it means those people that are well off can basically subsidise the cost of the game for people with less money. I find $30 of DLC far better than a $10 price bump across the spectrum. It keeps games affordable. And for that reason, I'd argue that it's actually the people going "we should all have the same game and pay the same amount" that are taking the 'as long as I get mine' attitude. If you buy just the base game you get 90% of the game for 50% of the price of game+ all DLC. That's a great deal for you. You're getting a bargain. One made possible by people who do buy all that DLC.

I'd take a few people getting upset because the presence of DLC they don't own makes them feel funny over pricing an entire set of people out of gaming any day.

Finicky
25-09-2012, 01:52 AM
I thought we had the consolites to subsidise our games already? Since they pay 10-20 euros more per copy on average:p

The lovely 'NO U' defense... always effective.
When games sell as much as they do nowadays (200k used to be huge, "aaa' companies arent even satisfied with 1 million sales anymore...) and when so much money is squandered on marketing to get these kinds of sales numbers then it's hard to feel like games should be more expensive.
A bigger market generally means lower prices, not the other way around.

You're also forgetting that DD content (and dd games) cut out:
-printing discs and boxes
-shipping
-local distributor
Those were savings that were promised to be carried over to the buyers at the advent of DD, never happened.

Please do continue the publisher pity parade that you usually post in every thread though.

And you didn't read the thread either... I'm not annoyed by good dlc value aka proper expansion packs like gta:london, red alert 2 : yuris revenge (see? they've been around for AGES) or broken steel or noxx.
It's the nickle and diming of selling multiple tiers of dlc to those who already paid 60 + 30 dollars for the game that is offensive.

There are still developers able to put out games that ooze polish and effort while asking 40 or less euros for them.
Hell s8 prejudice has more content and way more polish then bf3 vanilla did and they released it at 15 euros.
I bought it, doubt you did, too busy derailing threads.

Jesus_Phish
25-09-2012, 09:28 AM
I'm honestly curious where, before today, they made it clear that the four majors pieces of DLC weren't the only pieces of DLC? I mean sure, in light of today's announcement there will be other DLC the clear statements about the season pass covering four big pieces of DLC can be seen in a different light but when before today was there even a hint there would be other DLC that wasn't covered by the pass?

Where did they say that that they would only make four major pieces of DLC? Where did they say they would not make any more DLC out side of what will be in the season pass? They didn't. So people must have made the assumption that they wouldn't. Now they've announced they will be and people who made that assumption are getting up in arms over it.

@Finicky:
The saving's to be carried over: It won't work like that with any game that has to be boxed up and shipped. Blands 2 is a multi-platform game. As I stated in another thread, it's actually often cheaper (at least in Ireland and probably the UK) to buy a boxed copy of a pc game off a shelf and then use the code inside to activate on Steam. So look at the guy selling you the game, not the guys who funded it or made it. So the copy of Blands 2 I get from Gamestop, which has to be put on a disc, printed, shipped is cheaper than the copy that can be bought from Steam, which has to be none of those things.

Second point. If the DLC for Blands 2 that's in the season pass is as good as the stuff that came for Blands 1, then I think it's worth the asking price. Additionally, nobody, absolutely nobody, made you pay $60 and $30 for a game and what will essentially be an expansion pack. When you buy a ticket to see a movie, do you also buy a ticket to see the sequal that hasn't been made yet too? No, you don't. You get $60 worth of the content, then if you would like, you can buy an expansion at $30. I'd also like to point out that a lot of Season Passes for games are still kicking about, long after all their DLC came out, see the Saints Row 3 Season Pass.

Finally, if it for some reason helps you not try negate my point as me being some protectorite of publishers, I bought S8: Prejudice.

hamster
25-09-2012, 09:56 AM
The name might be a bit misleading, don't you think? "Season Pass".

Drake Sigar
25-09-2012, 10:03 AM
They sold something using familiar sports terminology that heavily implies all-access, and then made some modifications to what we understand as the basic definition. It would be like selling a special 'Hattrick Pass' with two bits of DLC.

Jesus_Phish
25-09-2012, 10:18 AM
So you've read "season pass" assumed it meant what it means in a totally different form of entertainment, bought it without reading what it was selling which clearly saying "4 pieces of DLC" and then complain because you didn't read the fine print?

It's like when you buy a season pass to a theme park, there's probably going to be one or two main attractions that aren't included. Nor will food or drink within the park be included. But all that will be in the fine print of it. I wouldn't run up to Disney Land and buy a season pass for X dollars without reading what I'm getting first. The same way I wouldn't buy a car from the buy and sell without reading the blurb first and then complain when I find out after I gave my money away that it said "please note, this car does not have an engine"

NathanH
25-09-2012, 10:19 AM
If you buy a season ticket for a football club in England you don't typically get the cup matches included, just the league games. So I think there is precedent for a Season Pass not including all content. On the other hand, cup matches are an unknown quantity at the start of the season, whereas these additions were presumably already planned.

Pre-purchasing DLC is a bit weird, I must say. At least until there is a more reliable standard of quality, or it becomes easier to tell ahead of time whether some game's DLC will be any good. Otherwise there is a huge amount of randomness involved, far more than pre-purchasing a video game.

Drake Sigar
25-09-2012, 10:22 AM
So you've read "season pass" assumed it meant what it means in a totally different form of entertainment, bought it without reading what it was selling which clearly saying "4 pieces of DLC" and then complain because you didn't read the fine print? I didn't buy it. And if I did, I would have read the print because I'm not an idiot. That doesn't mean I'm totally fine with others taking advantage of idiots though. They knew exactly what they were doing when calling it a season pass, their intention was to mislead.

Jesus_Phish
25-09-2012, 10:28 AM
I didn't buy it. And if I did, I would have read the print because I'm not an idiot. That doesn't mean I'm totally fine with others taking advantage of idiots though. They knew exactly what they were doing when calling it a season pass, their intention was to mislead.

Sorry, I didn't mean "you" specifically, but rather the global "you" meaning anyone who did this.

Drake Sigar
25-09-2012, 10:37 AM
Understood. I saw some folks on the TellTale forums complain the season pass they bought didn't give them access to the full game immediately - a game which hadn't even been made yet. They didn't read the print which said they get all the episodes as they come. It's surprising (and yet not) how many customers don't bother reading the details, and I'm certainly not absolving them of responsibility.

deano2099
25-09-2012, 10:39 AM
It clearly says 'four pieces of DLC' - If I were the developer I'd offer anyone complaining the chance to exchange it for a pack containing the first four pieces of DLC they release instead. If people would rather have a pack that contains an extra character, the first two larger expansions and some cosmetic DLC for more money than buying them separately, just because they're affronted by the definition of 'season pass' then I'd let them.

Also the extra character was free to pre-orders wasn't it? So including that in the season pass means you're charging your most loyal customers for it twice. And yes, even if the pack included the 4 current bits of DLC, and the character DLC regardless of if you had it or not, for the same price it is now, people who pre-ordered would still start moaning that they were being ripped off.

Sic
26-09-2012, 04:43 AM
I agree with everyone saying this is mostly an issue of psychology.

Calling it a "season pass" is completely ridiculous.

It should have been clearly stated in the name (of the product) that you're buying 4 smaller expansions, and not "DLC".

"DLC" is a derogatory term that nobody except arsehole suits like, so why anyone even bothers to use it is beyond me. Combining that with the "season pass" title is an even more perplexing move.

Some people just want to see the world burn, I guess. That, or they're just plain stupid.

icupnimpn2
26-09-2012, 06:12 AM
How long will this last though.

It's something I've wondered. If enough people adopt the attitude of "wait for GOTY", then will enough people buy the initial release and the dlc for them to justify packaging the GOTY. I'm sure they will continue to do it, but it'd be interesting to see if it ever got to a point that people stopped buying new games on release and just waited out the year. Would that be the tipping point back away from silly amounts of DLC and back to full release on disc. Or worse, would we end up getting "first edition only dlc" where the GOTY wouldn't carry it.

No, if people don't buy it on release and don't buy the DLC... the industry will take it as "proof" that F2P is the way to go