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mashakos
26-09-2012, 06:32 PM
Have you stopped playing RPGs? Why?


For me, it's basically because of Irrelevant Side quests (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IrrelevantSidequest) and Fetch Quests (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FetchQuest). I hate it when developers think I'm an idiot who can't tell when they've run out of ideas and try to distract me with 100s of hours' worth of filler. Took two games on the SNES to do it for me (Final Fantasy 3 and Star Ocean).

Lambchops
26-09-2012, 06:44 PM
I played very few RPG's anyway. Most of the ones I like are actions, adventure games (or indeed action adventure games), with a dressing of RPG elements that I find rather satisfying.

I might change that by buying the enhanced edition of Baldur's Gate but I'm not sure if I can afford the time commitment (then again I did complete Dragon Age: Origins so that is perhaps a poor excuse).

algolicious
26-09-2012, 06:55 PM
RPGs are amazing if the mechanics don't get in the way of the storytelling. What bugs me though is when so-called "RPG mechanics" are used to increase a game's length artificially, or used as an incentive for microtransactions.

(also, why did you have to link to tvtropes whyyyyy)

mickygor
26-09-2012, 06:56 PM
The prevalence of western openness in worldbuilding and narrative completely turns me off the genre.

frenz0rz
26-09-2012, 06:58 PM
Lack of time mostly. As you say, quite a few RPGs seem to have a certain degree of 'filler' these days, and when time is at a premium I'd rather be enjoying a good story or some exciting action than have to grind my way through mediocre combat and tedious 'collect X' quests for the next plot advance. I've been meaning to replay Chrono Trigger though, but thats not really a topic for discussion in these hallowed PC Gaming halls.

Open world RPGs are an exception - time permitting, I'll happily spend hours wandering around Skyrim making my own story as I go, until the point where I become too powerful and the thrill of adventuring is lost.

Wizardry
26-09-2012, 07:01 PM
RPGs are amazing if the mechanics don't get in the way of the storytelling.
I wish there were emoticons on this forum.

Flabberghast
26-09-2012, 07:01 PM
Usually I stray from RPG's that feel like single-player MMO's. Fed-ex quests, escort quests, kill 10 boars... I mean c'mon, imagination is the limit but yet games are still stuffed with the same old.

Oddly enough these mechanics don't disturb me in, for example, Guild Wars 2. Must be because that's where they belong.

Xercies
26-09-2012, 07:16 PM
I think i like exploration more then the machanics of RPGs now a days, just exploring a cave in skyrim and getting its backstory is a good pleasure...the combat mechanics not so much, so yeah new explorer genre of RPG please since atmosphere and stuff is very good, morrowind and Fallout 3 is the pinnacle of that i feel.

algolicious
26-09-2012, 07:25 PM
I wish there were emoticons on this forum.
I guess that's what you call YMMV. Not everyone enjoys the arbitrariness of pen-and-paper-styled systems. For example, I would've liked Planescape: Torment way more if it was an interactive novel. Opinions.

Wizardry
26-09-2012, 07:25 PM
I think i like exploration more then the machanics of RPGs now a days, just exploring a cave in skyrim and getting its backstory is a good pleasure...the combat mechanics not so much, so yeah new explorer genre of RPG please since atmosphere and stuff is very good, morrowind and Fallout 3 is the pinnacle of that i feel.
Exploration should ideally have game mechanics associated with it. Weather effects, fatigue, injuries, camping, day/night, different terrain, navigation and even skill use like climbing, swimming, tracking etc. can all be involved in exploration.


I guess that's what you call YMMV. Not everyone enjoys the arbitrariness of pen-and-paper-styled systems. For example, I would've liked Planescape: Torment way more if it was an interactive novel. Opinions.
So would I, in fact.

Internet
26-09-2012, 07:43 PM
Because no game I might ever enjoy can be considered an RPG. TRUE CRPGs(tm) were made for a period of 4 years before the formula to make them was stolen by the K'eebler Drow clan.

archonsod
26-09-2012, 07:48 PM
Yup, that's why they don't make them anymore. Nothing to do with the fact they sucked and nobody liked them.

vinraith
26-09-2012, 07:51 PM
What a weird thread. RPG's are still one of only two genres (the other being strategy) that I have a strong interest in.

Heliocentric
26-09-2012, 08:04 PM
What a weird thread. RPG's are still one of only two genres (the other being strategy) that I have a strong interest in.
Justify your Orcs Must Die 2 playing? or is it strategic just because it has terrain, you tyrant.

vinraith
26-09-2012, 08:09 PM
Justify your Orcs Must Die 2 playing? or is it strategic just because it has terrain, you tyrant.

You wouldn't call that a strategy game? It's a spinoff of tower defense, which is a spinoff of RTS. Granted it's obviously blended with an action game, but what would you call it?

Kadayi
26-09-2012, 08:25 PM
A strong narrative and characterization is key. Albeit I sunk a good 100 hours into Skyrim I didn't feel compelled to finish it truth be told, because it felt so flat, yet with DA:O I sunk probably twice that easily.

mashakos
26-09-2012, 08:29 PM
What a weird thread. RPG's are still one of only two genres (the other being strategy) that I have a strong interest in.

nothing against you if you like taking time off saving the universe to go fetching golden goose eggs for the cheery old lady living by the lake, but it's not for everyone.

Nalano
26-09-2012, 08:34 PM
I haven't played an RPG since... what time is it? 3:30pm? So, fourteen hours.

So I suppose the reason I stopped playing RPGs is that I work for a living.

internetonsetadd
26-09-2012, 08:36 PM
You wouldn't call that a strategy game? It's a spinoff of tower defense, which is a spinoff of RTS. Granted it's obviously blended with an action game, but what would you call it?

I'd call it what you just called it.

I haven't stopped playing RPGs. I have started skipping a lot of high fantasy RPGs with the same old derivative elves/dwarves/dragons nonsense. Sadly, but by no means unexpectedly, I've seen some Project Eternity backers clamoring for their old familiar favorites once again ("dwarves and dragons should be mortal enemies!"), the sort of Tolkien-royalty-check drivel that props up uninspired writing (and dull quests) time and time again.

mashakos
26-09-2012, 08:37 PM
I think i like exploration more then the machanics of RPGs now a days, just exploring a cave in skyrim and getting its backstory is a good pleasure...the combat mechanics not so much, so yeah new explorer genre of RPG please since atmosphere and stuff is very good, morrowind and Fallout 3 is the pinnacle of that i feel.

That's it. Having never played or had interest in table top games, I was under the impression that a Role Playing Game was about experiencing a meaningful story arc in a living world. It was never about chasing stats and random quest nonsense. I played through a few SNES JRPGs in my teens hoping to find what I was looking for but alas. The closest thing to what I've been hoping for was in the first Mass Effect, although I haven't sunk my teeth in to The Witcher, Morrowind and Oblivion because of my sadly adult busy life. Is it worth it? Would love to get a few links to some nice expositions of these games.

Vandelay
26-09-2012, 08:41 PM
RPGs are amazing if the mechanics don't get in the way of the storytelling.

I would mostly agree with that. I recently attempted to play Baulder's Gate for the first time, which had been sitting on my GoG shelf for a very long time untouched, but I only played for about three hours, as I became frustrated by the dull combat that consisted of waiting for someone to finally actually make a hit. The victor of the fight seemed to be chosen completely at random too. I'm not in to pen and paper RPGs, but I can at least see how that kind of system might be enjoyable whilst playing with friends, but in a game you are playing by yourself against computer opponents it just becomes frustrating. It reminded my why I was never interested in RPGs when I was younger and this is what the genre meant.

Having said that, I do like the freedom of choice that often comes with RPG games. Having control over the direction a story takes, even if it is only minor changes, is the best part of gaming. Moulding your character and seeing them grow is also incredibly rewarding. It is because of this, that I do like the fact that RPG elements have crept into other genres, particularly FPS games (although I do wish they would stop adding character progression to multiplayer games!)

Internet
26-09-2012, 08:51 PM
I'd call it what you just called it.

I haven't stopped playing RPGs. I have started skipping a lot of high fantasy RPGs with the same old derivative elves/dwarves/dragons nonsense. Sadly, but by no means unexpectedly, I've seen some Project Eternity backers clamoring for their old familiar favorites once again ("dwarves and dragons should be mortal enemies!"), the sort of Tolkien-royalty-check drivel that props up uninspired writing (and dull quests) time and time again.

At least Project Eternity isn't quite as high fantasy as usual. I think a game inspired by the Age of Exploration is pretty interesting. I like the idea of guns being used as an antimagic weapon, and a lot of wizards being forced into plate because of it. Also the interaction between Renaissance cultures and hunter-gatherers is bound to be pretty interesting.

Internet
26-09-2012, 08:55 PM
I would mostly agree with that. I recently attempted to play Baulder's Gate for the first time, which had been sitting on my GoG shelf for a very long time untouched, but I only played for about three hours, as I became frustrated by the dull combat that consisted of waiting for someone to finally actually make a hit.


I find this to be a problem in Baldur's Gate as well. I started with BGII, and found its combat much more interesting / quicker than the initial Baldur's Gate. It's slightly better if you start with a mage, because spells like magic missile are an insta-hit. They're weak as a kitten and need to sleep every five steps though.

Internet
26-09-2012, 08:57 PM
I play RPGs the most. I just finished the Geneforge series, which is far more exploration based than quest based, and New Vegas, where quick travel makes fetch quests pretty irrelevant.

internetonsetadd
26-09-2012, 09:07 PM
At least Project Eternity isn't quite as high fantasy as usual. I think a game inspired by the Age of Exploration is pretty interesting. I like the idea of guns being used as an antimagic weapon, and a lot of wizards being forced into plate because of it. Also the interaction between Renaissance cultures and hunter-gatherers is bound to be pretty interesting.

No, not really. We still have yet to find out what all the races will be, but I suspect that competence will produce a few that are at least halfway decent. I can whine all day but it won't change the fact that a lot of people like familiarity in their fantasy. It makes good business sense to offer Happy Meals to the people who want them. And overall my outlook for PE is bright. I think it represents just about the best someone with my tastes (er, distastes) could hope for in a fantasy RPG that appeals to a wide enough audience to be financially viable.

vinraith
26-09-2012, 09:17 PM
nothing against you if you like taking time off saving the universe to go fetching golden goose eggs for the cheery old lady living by the lake, but it's not for everyone.

Right, because that kind of thing defines the entire genre. I reject your premise.

mashakos
26-09-2012, 09:22 PM
Right, because that kind of thing defines the entire genre. I reject your premise.
I'm speaking purely from personal experience. Just got burnt out by so much drivel which incidentally is very popular with RPG gamers.

Drake Sigar
26-09-2012, 09:25 PM
RPGs are amazing if the mechanics don't get in the way of the storytelling.
Well it was kinda cool when KotoR 2 took experience points and the influence system, then made them both part of the story.

TillEulenspiegel
26-09-2012, 09:35 PM
I think a lot of the resistance to nontraditional forms of fantasy is that when people stray too far from a proven formula, they tend to fuck it up. Stuff works well for reasons, it's not arbitrary. Consistency is important, as is relatability - that's why you see so much of fantasy Europe (eg, Warhammer) and fantasy Japan (eg, L5R). Western audiences understand what's going on.

This is why originality is overrated. Any kid can sit down and think up loads of nonsense. It takes time and effort to build a world that makes sense, that's internally consistent (do you have castles and gunpowder in the same world? uh oh), that's familiar enough so you can have some idea of what the hell's going on and how to approach it.

There are hundreds of great games you could make that are based closely on say, Fritz Leiber or Ursula K. Le Guin. Popular fantasy stuff that's been around for a good long while. The problem with most fantasy videogames isn't a lack of originality, it's a lack of world development. You don't really know what's going on, or it doesn't make sense, or it just doesn't fit together well enough that it feels like a believable place.

internetonsetadd
26-09-2012, 09:51 PM
I'm speaking purely from personal experience. Just got burnt out by so much drivel which incidentally is very popular with RPG gamers.

That's not quite how you phrased it. I agree though. For me, it's frustrating to (really) like a genre that seems to routinely fall back on drivel. Since even the most competent developers do it to some degree, I have to assume that they're giving people what they want, and, in the case of games like DA:O, not simply failing to come up with something original because of a lack of ability. I'm often left with the feeling that I'm stuck playing in the settings other people want, which makes me kind of bitter toward high fantasy and its diehard adherents.

Wizardry
26-09-2012, 09:59 PM
I would mostly agree with that. I recently attempted to play Baulder's Gate for the first time, which had been sitting on my GoG shelf for a very long time untouched, but I only played for about three hours, as I became frustrated by the dull combat that consisted of waiting for someone to finally actually make a hit.
So what RPGs have good combat then?

mashakos
26-09-2012, 10:11 PM
That's not quite how you phrased it. I agree though. For me, it's frustrating to (really) like a genre that seems to routinely fall back on drivel. Since even the most competent developers do it to some degree, I have to assume that they're giving people what they want, and, in the case of games like DA:O, not simply failing to come up with something original because of a lack of ability. I'm often left with the feeling that I'm stuck playing in the settings other people want, which makes me kind of bitter toward high fantasy and its diehard adherents.

I shudder every time a game blogger praises a game's "depth" - when he/she's referring to levelling/stats. burrr!

Wizardry
26-09-2012, 10:16 PM
I shudder every time a game blogger praises a game's "depth" - when he/she's referring to levelling/stats. burrr!
Why? Surely in a game the depth comes from the game. Why does that make you shudder? Should game depth come from the the text the game periodically displays?

Kaira-
26-09-2012, 10:31 PM
Why should we be content with only one type of depth? Why not have both?

mashakos
26-09-2012, 10:31 PM
Why? Surely in a game the depth comes from the game. Why does that make you shudder? Should game depth come from the the text the game periodically displays?

for me, games shouldn't be Tamagotchi Paladin or Tamagotchi Mage simulators. I frankly have no interest in seeing a character's xp grow. The whole idea is ludicrous: you can't meaningfully represent a life long pursuit in just 10-20 hours of monotonous activities, wit hthe end result being a larger number. I prefer it when a game starts at a point where a character has been established and we are left to ponder moral, tactical or pragmatic decisions. That's the kind of depth I can appreciate. Mass Effect managed to pull this off nicely (but again I haven't played much of the Elder Scrolls series or the Witcher so I might be more surprised by those games).

vinraith
26-09-2012, 10:34 PM
I don't like the kinds of games you like, so the kinds of games you like shouldn't exist.

mashakos
26-09-2012, 10:36 PM
I don't like the kinds of games you like, so the kinds of games you like shouldn't exist.

where is that coming from? I don't like poker, but that doesn't mean I assault poker players in the street! Relax.

deano2099
26-09-2012, 10:41 PM
For example, I would've liked Planescape: Torment way more if it was an interactive novel. Opinions.

It depends. What I liked about PS:T was the positive feedback cycle from the dialogue, so choosing 'good' responses meant you discovered stuff, and got XP, which you could stick into the dialogue-related stats, opening up new routes in future conversations or with companion sub-quests. The actual conversation system was quite well gamified.

That could be done in a VN, but never really has been to my knowledge.

archonsod
26-09-2012, 10:43 PM
I'm speaking purely from personal experience. Just got burnt out by so much drivel which incidentally is very popular with RPG gamers.

If all you've played are SNES RPGs though you've been stuck with a distinct type. IIRC Shadowrun was the only non-JRPG released on the system, and JRPG's tend to be purely about stats and equipment. You might want to try something like Planescape : Torment or Vampire : Bloodlines, they're completely different.


It takes time and effort to build a world that makes sense, that's internally consistent (do you have castles and gunpowder in the same world? uh oh), that's familiar enough so you can have some idea of what the hell's going on and how to approach it.

The entire point of fantasy is to be fantastical. If all you're designing is Earth with a population of pointy eared types, you're doing it wrong. Besides, some of the biggest fantasy licenses (D&D, Warhammer) are not internally consistent, yet it doesn't seem to stop people enjoying them.

jackieo
26-09-2012, 10:44 PM
I think a lot of the resistance to nontraditional forms of fantasy is that when people stray too far from a proven formula, they tend to fuck it up. Stuff works well for reasons, it's not arbitrary. Consistency is important, as is relatability - that's why you see so much of fantasy Europe (eg, Warhammer) and fantasy Japan (eg, L5R). Western audiences understand what's going on.

This is why originality is overrated. Any kid can sit down and think up loads of nonsense. It takes time and effort to build a world that makes sense, that's internally consistent (do you have castles and gunpowder in the same world? uh oh), that's familiar enough so you can have some idea of what the hell's going on and how to approach it.

There are hundreds of great games you could make that are based closely on say, Fritz Leiber or Ursula K. Le Guin. Popular fantasy stuff that's been around for a good long while. The problem with most fantasy videogames isn't a lack of originality, it's a lack of world development. You don't really know what's going on, or it doesn't make sense, or it just doesn't fit together well enough that it feels like a believable place.

I get this argument and agree to a certain extent that developers tend to fail at pulling off alternate fantasy stuff. However, I do think they should keep trying even if it means tons of screw-ups in the meantime--they've figured out how to do it in literature, we should at least make the effort in games. The reason I've stopped investing as much in RPGs is explicitly because I'm tired of those "tried and true" stories. I'm tired of orcs and elves, I'm tired of space marines, and more than that, I'm tired of playing the same role regardless of context: someone who everyone takes seriously, shares information with indiscriminately, gives quests unquestioningly, and who is so physically bad-ass that they can kill their way through any goal. That's a power fantasy, and I understand the appeal, but we've all already role-played that shit so so many times and almost always in the exact same setting. It's depressing and I want to see something new.

Nalano
26-09-2012, 10:54 PM
I don't like the kinds of games you like, so the kinds of games you like shouldn't exist.

I smell a "what's an RPG" thread

mashakos
26-09-2012, 10:56 PM
If all you've played are SNES RPGs though you've been stuck with a distinct type. IIRC Shadowrun was the only non-JRPG released on the system, and JRPG's tend to be purely about stats and equipment. You might want to try something like Planescape : Torment or Vampire : Bloodlines, they're completely different.
Would you mind outlining a few key differences? RPGs need a certain level of commitment as you know, so I just want to get a general feel for the games you mentioned before I go for one of them (I already have VB: The Masquerade on my steam folder).

internetonsetadd
26-09-2012, 10:58 PM
Why? Surely in a game the depth comes from the game. Why does that make you shudder? Should game depth come from the the text the game periodically displays?

Wizardry, you sound like one of those Amazon trolls who gets flustered when people review DVDs by assessing the film itself (the horror!) instead of the features/quality of encoding. Kind of a shit analogy, but if I were to play New Vegas again it wouldn't be because of how fondly I remember leveling up. It would be to experience the world again, and the depth of my involvement in it, which leveling/stats contribute to but do not fully explain (subjectivity, fancy that). If Fallout 3 is essentially Oblivion with guns, there's a motivation distinct from the basic framework for why I want to play the former again but not the latter.

Wizardry
26-09-2012, 11:03 PM
Wizardry, you sound like one of those Amazon trolls who gets flustered when people review DVDs by assessing the film itself (the horror!) instead of the features/quality of encoding.
It's funny you should say that because I consider it the other way round.


IIRC Shadowrun was the only non-JRPG released on the system
There were a few, but most of the ports sucked (or were only released in Japan):

Wizardry V
Wizardry VI
Might and Magic II
Might and Magic III
Ultima VI
Worlds of Ultima: The Savage Empire
Ultima VII

The NES had somewhat more western RPGs though.

deano2099
27-09-2012, 12:23 AM
Would you mind outlining a few key differences? RPGs need a certain level of commitment as you know, so I just want to get a general feel for the games you mentioned before I go for one of them (I already have VB: The Masquerade on my steam folder).

They're more story-centric. By which I mean the story and your impact on it is truly part of the game. So in Bloodlines, for instance, while stats still exist, stats also influence your choices in dialog or how you can approach certain quests, which effect the result and ultimately the ending of the game.

Traditionally JRPGs have a story that just happens to you, regardless.

archonsod
27-09-2012, 12:51 AM
Would you mind outlining a few key differences? RPGs need a certain level of commitment as you know, so I just want to get a general feel for the games you mentioned before I go for one of them (I already have VB: The Masquerade on my steam folder).

There's less focus on the stats and levelling and more on player choice and narrative. Of course, most quests can still be boiled down to fetch or kill stuff, but there's somewhat more motivation behind them than just because. Bloodlines is interesting because the character stats influence how you approach the game (for the first two thirds at least, you can go through most of the game as a sneaky fast talking seducer, or guns blazing psycho). Planescape removes combat entirely since the main character is immortal; it's all about your conversation responses and similar (some of which can be lethal).

Blackcompany
27-09-2012, 01:51 AM
I shudder every time a game blogger praises a game's "depth" - when he/she's referring to levelling/stats. burrr!

Based on your interests and what you want in an RPG, the Witcher series would be perfect for you. I won't lie to you, however - run screaming from any Bethesda RPG ever made and especially from Skyrim.

People here will tell that I say that because I love to hate on Bethesda. Which I do. But I love to hate on them simply because their entire game is based on useless, meaningless fetching. Their writing is shallow and predictable; their quests follow the same formula literally every time. And the problem worsens the closer to Skyrim you get. Once Skyriam's radiant story takes over, you will LITERALLY be fetching things constantly. The game lacks a single side quest that is NOT a fed style errand running job.

The Witcher series takes an established character, gives him amnesia and turns you loose in gritty, dark world full of drunks, whores and racism. Your decisions will matter and they will affect the story, unlike anything found in a Bethesda game. The Witcher games are linear and progression follows a tight, defined track. Combat is fun (especially in Witcher 2) and interactive, full of physics and weight and impact, something else missing from Bethesda games without mods.

New Vegas falls somewhere in the middle. Decisions matter; working on speech and getting to know people is actually more important than using guns. I believe a non-lethal playthrough, at least in terms of killing humans, is possible. And really if you stick to roads, then guns, while sometimes needed, aren't the end all, be all. Conversations carry weight and much of the dialogue has real feeling to it. I highly recommend New Vegas, and level Speech until you can get the character played by Kris Kristofferson - Chief Hanlon - to tell you his story.

Another game you might like is Dungeon Siege III. With Lucas, you get real time action combat, and there are some choices and meaningful dialogue. The camera angle is wonky and its imperfect, but DS III - in terms of weighty decisions and influence on the world - is more RPG than Skyrim, to be honest.

Hope this helps. I think you will love the Witcher 2. I really do.

Ritashi
27-09-2012, 02:12 AM
Bloodlines is amazing, and you should go play it now. Combat in it is admittedly pretty bad, but it's also very fast and easy for the most part so imo it doesn't get in the way of the story. The story itself is amazing, and the myriad of ways you can approach the game are truly brilliant. The easter eggs hidden all around the world are hilarious, and the actual story and characters are really well done. It's one of very, very few games that has ever made me truly question the moral implications of my actions, and it has done so specifically because it doesn't use a strict morality system - Humanity doesn't measure right vs wrong, but rather just how in control of yourself you are; you have to decide right and wrong for yourself. There are times in the game when your character will face very hard decisions and you simply won't know what you should do. Once, while playing, I made a certain decision just because I was feeling annoyed by another character. It wasn't until they walked out, condemned to certain death by my lies, that I realized just what I'd done; and I realized that what I'd done was *exactly* what a young vampire might have. A vampire that felt like they were above the law, because they are, and forgot to think about the morality that they once thought was so important until they felt their humanity literally slipping away, being consumed by the Beast that was their curse.

I have never felt so immersed in any game as I have felt in Bloodlines. You can just slip into that world, and you won't need to concern yourself with anything else. The world just feels so alive; even ignoring the radios, TVs, and newspapers, the characters and situations are brilliantly designed, and the dialog is so cleverly written that the characters truly feel alive. You can just play your role within the world, and the world will always respond appropriately. There are some bugs here and there, to be sure, and some of the story missions are filled with a bit too much combat as the game progresses, but overall the game is amazing.

As a final aside, the XP system is very well done (following from the World of Darkness Pen and Paper system on which the game is based). You don't get XP directly for combat, but rather you get XP for completing missions, and for using clever techniques to solve challenges you face - finding an air duct, or hacking a computer, or picking a lock, is likely to give you more XP than simply charging in guns blazing. And you really only need a small amount of XP to effectively complete the game; most of your XP will go into specialized skills like Hacking or Persuasion that are more about helping you to complete the game in the style you prefer, rather than helping you brute force anything. So you never have to grind for XP, or do anything monotonous just to get to the next plot point. If you do find yourself stuck on something that involves combat, I recommend cheating, at least a little.

Voon
27-09-2012, 02:27 AM
Took two games on the SNES to do it for me (Final Fantasy 3 and Star Ocean).

Ooookay. Maybe you should play the others. The ones that aren't basic JRPGs

internetonsetadd
27-09-2012, 02:56 AM
It's funny you should say that because I consider it the other way round.

That's what I gather from the PE thread. Just to clarify, I used the term troll because I don't know how else to describe those people, not because I'm trying to assign it to you.

Favorite RPGs? Maybe if I had a few examples of what you mean exactly... it's possible that we enjoy the same games but have a different perspective on what constitutes their essence.

SouperSteve0
27-09-2012, 03:00 AM
Because I don't find it exciting to watch two parties take turns walking across the screen to smack another in the face.
Also, the stories never engage me. Also also, stats.

Finicky
27-09-2012, 03:03 AM
The story has taken a backseat... nothing but generic fan finction quality elves and orcs or medieval or space marines shit with poorly written characters and often really awful voice acting and animations.

Loot is almost always meaningless, just a carrot to chase , higher damage/damage reduction vs higher health bars.
I prefer traditional games where your 'upgrades' are aligned with the learning curve and level design and change the way you play.
Loot stopped being interesting years ago for me, as did leveling up and stats.

Gameplay also often takes a backsteat, awful shooting mechanics like mass effect, terrible simplistic shallow combat like in elderscrolls games or even worse : global cooldown action bar rotations, or the awful clickspam of arpgs.
If the gameplay doesn't compare well to gameplay oriented regular games then it's not worth playing.

In short: it feels like the bar for every aspect of videogames is set a lot lower in rpgs than in normal games, but 10/10 cos loot and exp.

Tikey
27-09-2012, 03:24 AM
Reasons you don't play RPGs anymore

Because Wizardy says they're nor real rpgs and I'm wrong to like them

jquinn914
27-09-2012, 03:53 AM
LOL, always found it pretty strange how Wizardry could go on about something as pointless as "what's an authentic RPG". It's a fuckin title for categorization for God's sake. Do I agree that a true purebred RPG is what you describe? Yes. Is it utterly ridiculous to argue that games that have a good portion of RPG checklist filled out but carry aspects of other genres can't be called RPGs? Yes.
VtM: B is an excellent game but it's a mutt for sure. It still has all of the best stuff I like about RPGs: Probably the best most detailed character cast of any game, a unique and pretty good storyline, a unique and pretty good character development system/abilities. Yea the combat can be mostly nonsense to the point where you almost wish it just used a fundamental turn-based system, but it's passable and kind of fun at times and how many RPGs have top-notch combat? Especially ones that maintain a good story, gameworld, and or characters?

Giaddon
27-09-2012, 04:27 AM
Wait, you didn't like Final Fantasy 3? What the shit?

Voon
27-09-2012, 05:05 AM
Wait, you didn't like Final Fantasy 3? What the shit?
Unless he's talking about the NES or DS remake of 3 rather than SNES FF3, I'm not that surprised

Ritashi
27-09-2012, 05:07 AM
I always found it pretty strange how Wizardry can single-handedly derail a thread, despite doing nothing at all to cause that to happen. I mean, seriously, it's impressive. Talk about your reputation preceding you.

Voon
27-09-2012, 05:12 AM
he's like that

welcome to RPS

Nalano
27-09-2012, 05:27 AM
I always found it pretty strange how Wizardry can single-handedly derail a thread, despite doing nothing at all to cause that to happen. I mean, seriously, it's impressive. Talk about your reputation preceding you.

It's sorta like how you'd like to have a nice time out at your local watering hole, but there's always that rowdy, belligerent drunk who will wail at you, your friends and anybody nearby for the rest of the night if any of you ever mentions his ex-girlfriend Stella. Or anything that sounds like Stella. Or if any of you happens to be blonde.

Consequently, your favorite drink starts with S and ends with Artois.

Giaddon
27-09-2012, 05:28 AM
That was directed at OP, not Wizardry, by the by. The by.

Sparkasaurusmex
27-09-2012, 07:08 AM
Have you stopped playing RPGs? Why?
I still play RPGs! Most recently: Football Manager 2012 and Space Rangers 2 :)

Mohorovicic
27-09-2012, 07:12 AM
I really don't like TPP cameras and/or "talking heads", or how most modern RPGs handle dialogue scenes. Two cameras, opposite shots, agressive/nice/neutral response. Deus Ex's dialogues were more dynamic and interesting than this.

RedRobin
27-09-2012, 07:36 AM
Duplicate post sorry.

RedRobin
27-09-2012, 07:36 AM
I really don't like TPP cameras and/or "talking heads", or how most modern RPGs handle dialogue scenes. Two cameras, opposite shots, agressive/nice/neutral response. Deus Ex's dialogues were more dynamic and interesting than this.


Did you like Guild Wars 2 approach?

RedRobin
27-09-2012, 07:37 AM
I smell a "what's an RPG" thread

Lol very true :P was thinking the same thing.

Mohorovicic
27-09-2012, 07:43 AM
Did you like Guild Wars 2 approach?

Wasn't that the jRPG style both characters in one frame on opposite sides thing?

And did it even have dialogue choices?

archonsod
27-09-2012, 07:46 AM
Yea the combat can be mostly nonsense to the point where you almost wish it just used a fundamental turn-based system, but it's passable and kind of fun at times and how many RPGs have top-notch combat? Especially ones that maintain a good story, gameworld, and or characters?

WoD's combat system is probably one of the worst combat systems ever devised. To be fair, Bloodlines is an actual improvement on that. It still sucks of course, but given the source material it's amazing Troika managed to make it work in the first place. White Wolf never did.

RedRobin
27-09-2012, 07:50 AM
WoD's combat system is probably one of the worst combat systems ever devised. To be fair, Bloodlines is an actual improvement on that. It still sucks of course, but given the source material it's amazing Troika managed to make it work in the first place. White Wolf never did.

Thats what I loved about Troika how they were able to make it work.... White WW couldnt ;(

RedRobin
27-09-2012, 07:51 AM
Wasn't that the jRPG style both characters in one frame on opposite sides thing?

And did it even have dialogue choices?

Yeah it was but some of them had Dialogue choices.. Some didnt. In my opinion I dont like listening to the story of a game like gw2. I just wanna get in the pvp action and dish out some damage.

Xercies
27-09-2012, 11:57 AM
I haven't sunk my teeth in to The Witcher, Morrowind and Oblivion because of my sadly adult busy life. Is it worth it? Would love to get a few links to some nice expositions of these games.

If you want to play a bethesda game definitly get fallout 3, i think Morrowind is probably better but maybe a bit old. fallout 3 just has the exploration and a what is over there feel to it, it has atmosphere because its post apocolyptic with an interesting style. maybe the quests might be fetch quests but theres a reason it facilitates exploration but the best bit about the game is forging your own path and finding all manor of things and quests that last awhile and then finish when your done with that area. also it has 10x the atmosphere of Oblivion so ignore people who just say "Oblivion with guns". just in a metro station with its dark hallways and the only light to humanity is a radio station blaring out cole portors anything goes its just lovely.

kingmob
27-09-2012, 02:44 PM
I've been playing torchlight 2 the past few days and have had a hard time admitting to myself I am not enjoying it :( Admittedly, it is not a 'pure' RPG, but still. I think the gameplay and stories have become a bit too stale for me, I've seen it by now. Also, for some reason I see them as a waste of time lately.

I have it with Skyrim, which I occasionally 'visit' but always just for on day. I started mass effect 3 but couldn't be bothered to continue it. etc. etc.
It was a surprise to me, but it looks like I don't like RPGs anymore :-0 There is this Obsidian kickstarter and I am completely unexcited.

I played crusader kings 2 again last night however, I accidently stopped at 5am.... (an epic 20 year war to overthrow my rule over my 4 kingdoms that are almost but not quite the British empire, while the king of Norway came to reclaim some of the land I stole. Can't believe I won!)

jnx
27-09-2012, 07:04 PM
http://kusogedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/i-want-to-be-a-dragon.jpg

Mohorovicic
28-09-2012, 06:22 AM
"I want to be a dragon", classic Bioware quality writing right there. I made a similar picture (http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/8193/circaa.jpg) once, though I focused more on progress. Or rather lack of it. Or rather the opposite of it.

Doesn'tmeananything
28-09-2012, 07:59 AM
To be fair, Fallout is a pretty high standard. And Oblivion doesn't have turn-based combat. So...

Jesus_Phish
28-09-2012, 10:29 AM
I cant decide what to play...

Fallout 1 and 2 or Baulders Gate 1 and 2....

Also, in relation to the title of the thread, I love RPGs, they're easily my favourite genre.

Mohorovicic
28-09-2012, 02:30 PM
To be fair, Fallout is a pretty high standard. And Oblivion doesn't have turn-based combat. So...

To be fair, that screenshot from Torment is the very endgame where you talk to a dude for an hour tying all the plotlines together.

We're not trying hard for fairness, here

Wizardry
28-09-2012, 03:13 PM
Fixed.

http://i.imgur.com/EmhE4.jpg

NathanH
28-09-2012, 03:16 PM
So although we can't agree on what an RPG is, we can agree that whatever they are, they've been dumbed down!

Doesn'tmeananything
28-09-2012, 03:24 PM
@Mohorovicic I was being whimsical.

What I'm actually bothered about is your calling an action game with stats a 'cRPG'. I thought the term existed primarily to distinguish traditional role-playing games from modern-day 'RPGs'.

TillEulenspiegel
28-09-2012, 03:31 PM
What I'm actually bothered about is your calling an action game with stats a 'cRPG'. I thought the term existed primarily to distinguish traditional role-playing games from modern-day 'RPGs'.
Yes, but "traditional role-playing games" are the type you play with pen and paper. Those are RPGs. And if you haven't played an original one that was created in the past ten years (ie, starting with Sorcerer), you're missing out.

The C stands for computer.

Doesn'tmeananything
28-09-2012, 03:34 PM
Yeah, it's my coping mechanism.

bonkers
28-09-2012, 04:13 PM
Sadly, I have currently stopped playing RPGs because I want to dive into them and explore almost every corner. Which currently isn't possible tdue to time restrains. So I have put them aside until I have more time to invest.

Spider Jerusalem
28-09-2012, 04:16 PM
i'm just gonna leave this (http://www.ign.com/top/rpgs) here.

mashakos
28-09-2012, 04:34 PM
i'm just gonna leave this (http://www.ign.com/top/rpgs) here.

didn't go through the whole thing, but it seems the title should be changed to "top 95 JRPGs of all time (and 5 other RPGs to not make us look like fanbois)"

Wizardry
28-09-2012, 04:50 PM
didn't go through the whole thing, but it seems the title should be changed to "top 95 JRPGs of all time (and 5 other RPGs to not make us look like fanbois)"
There are 39 "western" games on that list...

mashakos
28-09-2012, 05:07 PM
There are 39 "western" games on that list...

really? i stopped at fallout new vegas.

Internet
28-09-2012, 05:26 PM
i'm just gonna leave this (http://www.ign.com/top/rpgs) here.

That is, that is just horrible. It probably is a good representation of what the average person who plays games thinks these days.

Mohorovicic
28-09-2012, 05:58 PM
There are 39 "western" games on that list...

It's amazing you actually bothered to count.

mashakos
28-09-2012, 06:02 PM
It's amazing you actually bothered to count.

You know how RPG gamers like to grind :P

NathanH
29-09-2012, 02:39 PM
That is, that is just horrible. It probably is a good representation of what the average person who plays games thinks these days.

To be honest the list isn't that bad, at least from the games that I know. There are some questionable choices, and you could make arguments for other choices, but at least from modern games I don't see many obvious choices missing. Only Bloodlines, really, and maybe ToEE. And obviously Knights of the Chalice, but they probably haven't heard of that.

Mohorovicic
29-09-2012, 02:45 PM
You can tell the list is worthless just by looking at the banner.

NathanH
29-09-2012, 02:54 PM
The worst thing about the list is the reference to the "tenants" of RPGs.

TillEulenspiegel
29-09-2012, 03:19 PM
The worst thing about the list is the reference to the "tenants" of RPGs.
When did this misspelling become so common? That and "dominate" when they mean dominant. It's obviously caused when someone half-literate mishears a word.

I swear I never saw those errors 5+ years ago, and I was reading plenty of inane drivel on Slashdot and other sites back then.

Sparkasaurusmex
29-09-2012, 04:03 PM
I don't see many obvious choices missing. Only Bloodlines, really

That's a pretty glaring omission when you're listing 100 RPGs

Edit: I used to be a tenant of RPGs, but I got this nice place downtown now. It's faster living- no time to pause or take turns. Always must progress. It's a rat race here. No one really says much to each other...they all seem on autopilot. ...But at least it's all laid out to prevent getting lost. Oh and there are lots of shiny baubles to find everywhere, often just laying in the street. Sometimes I regret moving out, until I accomplish something that would have seemed pointless in my old place, but here it is recognized as quite an achievement, and I imagine it's okay living here. It probably doesn't matter since the opportunity to move back may never come for me.

BillButNotBen
30-09-2012, 11:16 AM
RPGs tend to demand a huge time investment, and I think that, like a lot of older gamers, it's just really hard to have that time to commit these days. Starting an RPG is like deciding to run a marathon - a big commitment that's hard to get started with and i'm very likely to fail at. So I often don't start.
Starting other types of games tends to appear less daunting and to require less of an investment.

there's also the way that RPG mechanics have been seeping into every genre these days, so you can get your RPG fix in other ways. And the way RPGs tend to have way too much filler that seems to be there just to consume time.

I've also found that RPGs tend to take a while to get into. I've started many RPGs only to be very underwhelmed and give up after a few hours... but some that I've restarted have really grabbed me (8-10 hours in, which is more than a whole game in another genre).

I wish there were more short-form RPGs. It doesn't seem like an unreasonable demand.

(note: I've been "playing" baldur's gate since January... but i've been stalled on it for a few months. I'm not sure I'll ever go back to it. I noticed that my characters have all killed over 1000 kobolds each... which is a ridiculous amount of genocidal filler. I'm feeling like I made a mistake in my time investment. I could have played 6+ other games in that time, or watched about 30 movies. )

Sparkasaurusmex
30-09-2012, 01:42 PM
I don't think I ever killed that many kobolds...
Are you just running in circles?

Also, try BG2 if BG isn't appealing to you. It is a much better game.