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View Full Version : DICE To Modders: Try To Make Our Game Look Good And Be Banned!



Shooop
04-10-2012, 01:54 PM
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/10/03/dice-hints-bans-color-correcting-battlefield-3-mo/

The tweet they posted really says it all. Not, "You can exploit the game by using this mod" but "to colorful."

Now taking bets on when they'll make a color-correction DLC pack.

gundato
04-10-2012, 02:00 PM
Makes sense to me. Rather than go out of their way to add special exceptions, just ban all third-party programs that are modifying the game files. It really shouldn't take a genius to understand why that would be bad...

But that doesn't fit the "Screw DICE and EA" narrative, so I assume it is wrong.

Shooop
04-10-2012, 02:10 PM
When your response is "It makes the game look different and I don't like that" instead of "You're cheating in our game" that doesn't seem arrogant at all?

Why are you on a PC gaming website?

Alex Bakke
04-10-2012, 02:17 PM
Why are you on a PC gaming website?

Shush - One does not have to subscribe to a particular set of views and not deviate from them because one likes a certain format. Gundato has a point; it's easier to prohibit all modifications, than it is to allow one and then have a slippery slope of modifications be created.

How it was handled though, was terrible.

gundato
04-10-2012, 02:19 PM
When your response is "It makes the game look different and I don't like that" instead of "You're cheating in our game" that doesn't seem arrogant at all?

Why are you on a PC gaming website?

Uhm... because I play PC games?

And the actual quote



@Minusthebeats (https://twitter.com/Minusthebeats)@Demize99 (https://twitter.com/Demize99)@zh1nt0 (https://twitter.com/zh1nt0) to colorful. Also I wouldn't use those hacks if you don't want a perm ban on your account. FYI warning.

As in, he does not like the art style and suggests not using hacks to avoid perma-bans.

I don't see how that was so horrible. It was a twitter post. Those are limited to a certain number of characters (if memory serves), so he can't go into a long speech on something that should be VERY obvious.

Jesus_Phish
04-10-2012, 02:24 PM
Grr, argh, EA baaad. Boo, hiss...

It's done like this right?

Unaco
04-10-2012, 02:28 PM
I can understand them taking a harsh line on it... Can't say I agree with them, completely, but I can understand it. The 'hack' can be used for much, much more than just changing the colour balance, and obviously they don't want people doing that... they want to keep the competitive standards and the game unmodified. It isn't so much "Try To Make Our Game Look Good And Be Banned!" and more "(Please) Don't modify the game files! Don't do this sort of thing! You say it's to do X, but it could just as easily do Y, we can't tell, and as Y would be a really shitty thing, we want to prevent even the possibility of that, rather than allow X and at the same time allow Y". That's quite a mouthful though... doubt you could fit that into a tweet.

Simple solution is to take that X, whatever the mod/hack claims to do, and incorporate that into the game/options for everyone... then no hack required, and no possibility of Y.

For me, the real problem is that there only are the Official, DICE/EA servers available... and no way to have your servers outside of that, where you can do what you want. But I think that's probably a whole new topic.

Alex Bakke
04-10-2012, 02:38 PM
It can give players an advantage, by the way. A friend of mine loaded it up on a non-punkbuster server, and the glare if you look at the sun has been reduced by like, 90% - A great advantage if you're trying to take down a jet/flying a jet.

duff
04-10-2012, 02:43 PM
It can give players an advantage, by the way. A friend of mine loaded it up on a non-punkbuster server, and the glare if you look at the sun has been reduced by like, 90% - A great advantage if you're trying to take down a jet/flying a jet.

Or even approaching certain points, like Hilltop or Forest on Caspian, without the glare is a pretty large advantage.

gundato
04-10-2012, 02:55 PM
And, from a quick look at the screenshots of the tool and a read-up on its limitations, it sounds like this only affects the map. So with a bit of tweaking, you can make most player skins stick out like a sore thumb.

Sparkasaurusmex
04-10-2012, 03:00 PM
When your response is "It makes the game look different and I don't like that" instead of "You're cheating in our game" that doesn't seem arrogant at all?

Why are you on a PC gaming website?

Even CS (a mod itself) would use something like punkbuster (on servers that chose) to stop graphical mods.

It's hard for a server to tell what a mod is actually doing, but these color mods can clear the obstructions from view, ruin camouflage by making all opponents fluorescent orange, and perhaps lead the way to aimbots and other cheats.

To me the issue here has nothing to do with DICE/EA banning modders. The big problem with BF3, to me, is the lack of server software for the end user. That is the solution to this problem. Let people run their servers however they want.

TechnicalBen
04-10-2012, 03:09 PM
Just make it a SP mod... oh wait.

Bobtree
04-10-2012, 04:52 PM
BF3 is just an abusive game by design. DICE have forsaken us.

Shooop
04-10-2012, 06:05 PM
It'd be one thing if he had said outright, "Hey this is basically a cheat folks." But when your first reaction is, "We don't like how it looks" and then "Oh, and by the way we'll ban you if you use it. Because of cheats and all." that's not a good thing.

Heliocentric
04-10-2012, 06:09 PM
BF3 is just an abusive game by design. DICE have forsaken us.

I know you are saying that hyperbolicaly, but I find it hard to disagree.

Unaco
04-10-2012, 06:17 PM
It'd be one thing if he had said outright, "Hey this is basically a cheat folks." But when your first reaction is, "We don't like how it looks" and then "Oh, and by the way we'll ban you if you use it. Because of cheats and all." that's not a good thing.

Why not? He was responding to someone asking how he thought it looked. He was honest and replied to that, and then pointed out that it's on troublesome ground as far as being a hack, keeping their game unmodified etc. Why does giving his opinion on the style/aesthetics first, then negate his comments on the 'legality' (for want of a better word) of the mod?

SirKicksalot
04-10-2012, 06:23 PM
What the FUCK were DICE thinking when they designed Wake Island for BF3?


Or even approaching certain points, like Hilltop or Forest on Caspian, without the glare is a pretty large advantage.

True, being able to actually see anything is unfair.

Sparkasaurusmex
04-10-2012, 07:33 PM
Yeah, Wake Island.
Here's what they thought: Wake Island was the original BF map. It was a prerelease demo before BF1942, and won over many gamers before that game even came out.

Here's what they did: Removed driving controls from the carrier, making it immobile. They made it invincible, AND they made it out of bounds to any opponent not in a flying vehicle.

I'm not sure they understand why the original Wake Island is such a great map.

Bobtree
04-10-2012, 07:50 PM
I know you are saying that hyperbolicaly

Haha ... nope. No sarcasm or hyperbole intended. We have had this discussion before though.

Like, why do they have to dump all my kit setups and make me reconfigure them? Thanks DICE.

Finicky
04-10-2012, 11:08 PM
Yeah, Wake Island.
Here's what they thought: Wake Island was the original BF map. It was a prerelease demo before BF1942, and won over many gamers before that game even came out.

Here's what they did: Removed driving controls from the carrier, making it immobile. They made it invincible, AND they made it out of bounds to any opponent not in a flying vehicle.

I'm not sure they understand why the original Wake Island is such a great map.


They didn't understand anything about what made battlefield big.
3 things did:
-mod tools: WAY more people bought and most importantly kept playing bf1942 because of DC and later forgotten hope than for the vanilla game.
-Conquest as they called it was implemented really well, the maps were designed around it. It wasn't another quake, it wasn't another cs or , it wasn't another rtcw, it wasn't another medal of honor.
-it was a sandbox fps game, something that didn't really exist before.
From the vehicle physics and variety, to the wide variety of classes and the big maps, it all allowed for a large variety in unique playstyles that you couldn't really get in other games.

Bf3 doesn't have any of that...

There are no stuntclans in bf3 because they took a big shit on the physics to dumb them down, cap points are too close together to allow any form of conquest gameplay , there is no variety in vehicles or vehicle related gameplay, most of what little variety there is locked away behind a carrot exp grind wall... and there are no mods , hidden behind the excuse that the community is too dumb to use their tools.

in another year bf3 will be abandoned for bf4 and suckers will pay another 100+ euros for that toddler version of battlefield.

Wheelz
04-10-2012, 11:11 PM
BF3 is just an abusive game by design. DICE have forsaken us.

+1 to this. It sums up my experience with BF3 pretty well I think.

Misnomer
04-10-2012, 11:43 PM
They didn't understand anything about what made battlefield big.
3 things did:
-mod tools: WAY more people bought and most importantly kept playing bf1942 because of DC and later forgotten hope than for the vanilla game..


Like to see some numbers on that, I know BF2 never sold as much in 7 years as it did in its first year. Bf3 beat those 8 years in its first week. Not gonna be convincing DICE with those numbers I imagine.



-Conquest as they called it was implemented really well, the maps were designed around it. It wasn't another quake, it wasn't another cs or , it wasn't another rtcw, it wasn't another medal of honor...

This is subjective so I will leave you to your opinion. I like the newer design of CQ maps.




-it was a sandbox fps game, something that didn't really exist before.
From the vehicle physics and variety, to the wide variety of classes and the big maps, it all allowed for a large variety in unique playstyles that you couldn't really get in other games.

Bf3 doesn't have any of that...

You are right that 1942 was something that didn't exist before, but it competed with Operation Flashpoint, Joint Ops, Enemy Territory Quake Wars and other similar games over its long lifetime. But all of those failed. Front Line Fuel of War, Homefront, Crysis Wars.. All come and gone. ArmA as the simulator combined arms game and BF as the arcade combined arms game are the ones that have succeeded. Sure there aren't submarines in this version, but we could have a very very long list of the things that there are in this game that weren't in 1942.



There are no stuntclans in bf3 because they took a big shit on the physics to dumb them down, cap points are too close together to allow any form of conquest gameplay , there is no variety in vehicles or vehicle related gameplay, most of what little variety there is locked away behind a carrot exp grind wall... and there are no mods , hidden behind the excuse that the community is too dumb to use their tools.

in another year bf3 will be abandoned for bf4 and suckers will pay another 100+ euros for that toddler version of battlefield.


Things like this don't exist at all... certainly none of those stunts are happening in these bland vehicles either...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxxxq4WaSUo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5zkCgQRQec



Or... all of this griping is part of the nostalgia culture on PC. The color hack is a hack and the way it is done should be banned. It is not part of some vast DICE conspiracy.

Mihkel
04-10-2012, 11:55 PM
Haven't played bf3 for a while. Two questions: did they fix the sun also how is this a hack?

BobbyFizz
05-10-2012, 12:00 AM
Removing that default bleach bypass look of BF3 makes it look brilliant from what I can tell from the video in the link. Goes back to what BF2 looked like in terms of colour.

It's a damned shame they go to such lengths to keep the modders out of the game, I recall a forum thread by one of the devs explaining why they don't think modding would be doable on the frostbite engine, and it was the most embarrassingly contrived load of nonsense.

Sketch
05-10-2012, 12:12 AM
There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding whether or not this mod is safe. Many appear to be under the impression that people have been banned for this - this is NOT the case.

At the current time, there have been zero legitimate reports of bans or even kicks for this. Modding the game files with Frankelstner's tool (something different) can get players kicked for "MD5Tool Mismatch"; this is something manually set up by server administrators, and DOES NOT happen with our own tool.

DICE has not yet made any official announcement regarding Battlefield 3 mods. The comments that people have been discussing have indeed come from a DICE employee, but on his own personal Twitter account where he can post his own thoughts and opinions. To clarify, he said that players *could* get permanently banned for modifying the game files. He didn't say that anyone is already getting banned, and he didn't guarantee that people would get banned. Interestingly, he has deleted his comments from his Twitter page.

I have been contacted by a GGC head admin about my tool. GGC is an anti-cheat system used by many game servers. I don't want to go into all the details, but he has informed me that GGC will not punish for the colour tweaks made by BF3 Colour Tweaker.

Finally, some people have attacked me for not including a warning that this could get players banned. As discussed above, it currently doesn't get players banned, but even so there HAVE been warnings from the start. The program we developed has a giant warning message displayed on the first run that is impossible to miss.

Hmmm. I don't think anyone will be banned.

Moraven
05-10-2012, 12:27 AM
Should just let them play on unranked games.

Allow servers where you you can have all items and perks + mods. Stats are not saved nor tracked.

Doubt it would ever happen tho. Because they are doing everything for us anyway.

Moraven
05-10-2012, 12:28 AM
Hmmm. I don't think anyone will be banned.

Happened with SC2 also with mods (game screen background image, Stronger team colors). People cry that they got banned for using the innocent mods. But really, 99.8% of the time they were actually hacking also and will not own up to it.

Misnomer
05-10-2012, 12:28 AM
Haven't played bf3 for a while. Two questions: did they fix the sun also how is this a hack?

To quote another forum (http://www.fpsadmin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24877)


There are two tools to modify the color grading. The first edits a file named
cas.cat which has a lot of control from weapon damage, recoil, sun glare, amount
of suppression and much more.
http://i.imgur.com/g0cfK.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/g0cfK.jpg)

The second hex edits the
map files.
http://bf3.realmware.co.uk/colour-tweaker/screenshots (http://bf3.realmware.co.uk/colour-tweaker/screenshots)

It would not be surprising if these were checked by PB, but currently it is apparently just an MD5 check from what I read.

To me it is a hack because it changes the appearance of the game for some users and not others. If I pick a camo to blend in and suddenly I stand out like a sore thumb to just 1 player because he edited game files... that is a hack/cheat. Who knows what other parts of the "art" those players have changed in those files to make the game easier to play than everyone else.

That's the theory. Having played Sourcemods like Insurgency where people put other players in Pink Skins or Dayz when people were using brightness tweaks to screw with the nighttime...it is clear to me that even the least "cheater" type gamers will abuse these things is they can for an advantage.

Finicky
05-10-2012, 04:52 AM
Like to see some numbers on that, I know BF2 never sold as much in 7 years as it did in its first year. Bf3 beat those 8 years in its first week. Not gonna be convincing DICE with those numbers I imagine.



.
Bf1942 wasn't big when it was first released, the game kept selling for years (and the community grew over months and months and months ) because of mods and word of mouth and sheer bang for buck through those mods. I haven't met a bf1942 player who isn't aware of that.
The content and gameplay added in DC by 0.8 on its own is still bigger than all of bf3+dlc combined.

BF1942 has always been mentioned as one of the leading examples of mod communities and all the benifits of playing on pc and modding.




Things like this don't exist at all... certainly none of those stunts are happening in these bland vehicles either...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxxxq4WaSUo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5zkCgQRQec

.
Glitchy plane collisions and flying under bridges, boy you sure proved me wrong....
Bf3 planes don't behave like planes they behave like some mangled jetpack/mech/puppet hybrid.
The helis are dumbed down hilariously much from the DC mod (much good hiring the guys behind DC did...)

People formed stuntclans because it was hard to fly the helis and most regular players were barely able to take off or land with them without flipping them. It's like people making headshot videos in cs vs the aim down sight autoaim compilations of call of duty on xbox.
There isn't much point to the latter.

Sigh why am I even arguing about the physics being dumbed down, that is not up for debate it's a fact.

edit: this is a harmless mod, you don't think that an IP that has the efforts of its mod community to thank for much of its popularity now shunning even harmless mods like this is even a tiny bit ironic?
Even more ironic is all the bad company babies jumping on the bandwagon to hate on this, while their precious semi cod achievement/unlock clone wouldn't even exist anymore today if it weren't for the mods that made the first game popular.

Nalano
05-10-2012, 05:32 AM
Shush - One does not have to subscribe to a particular set of views and not deviate from them because one likes a certain format. Gundato has a point; it's easier to prohibit all modifications, than it is to allow one and then have a slippery slope of modifications be created.

And remind us: Who benefits when all mods are banned?

Sketch
05-10-2012, 06:04 AM
While it'd be preferable to allow user creations etc, if they're not having that then in this case I guess an all banned policy is best, in that people won't get confused, use the wrong tool and get banned, or have a big upset because their mod gets them banned while another doesn't.

Misnomer
05-10-2012, 08:14 AM
People formed stuntclans because it was hard to fly the helis and most regular players were barely able to take off or land with them without flipping them. It's like people making headshot videos in cs vs the aim down sight autoaim compilations of call of duty on xbox.
There isn't much point to the latter.

Sigh why am I even arguing about the physics being dumbed down, that is not up for debate it's a fact.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4B9l5CC1Po

If you think that is a good flight model, I guess you are right... there is no argument because we will never agree.

DC Helis were a fudge job that essentially put an aircraft propeller in the middle of the helicopter. This meant it was massively unstable because the thrust was focused in such a tiny area. That did make it maneuverable, but it was actually closer to a brick with a jetpack strapped to it that the choppers DICE has made. DICE's helicopters do things like...react to impacts instead of ignoring newtonian physics when things hit them. They also lose lift when the rotors go beyond a certain angle.

So as to dumbing down the physics, that is hardly a fact. The physics have gotten more complicated and realistic. Older games were less complex and less able to model reality, this made them more abuseable and difficult to learn with counter-intuitive physics.

I will grant there are issues, like the jets getting turned into gliders....but claiming older BF games had better physics is laughable for anyone who actually remembers the issues in them.

You aren't arguing for better physics, you are arguing for worse physics so that people can congregate around the stupid stuff that happens with poor physics modelling. That's your taste. I would suggest that if bonkers physics fun is your thing and the loopy things people do in those videos aren't good enough for you, then BF might not be the series for you anymore. Seems like all you enjoyed were accidents of bad or limited programming.

I would feel roughly the same pity for a person refusing to buy the latest Valve game because it made surf maps impossible. None.




Back on topic---

This still isn't about mods, it is about altering core game art files to give a person an advantage in a multiplayer game. The original version of this tool actually let you even change your weapon damage. It is a hack... In a singleplayer game, go for it. In a multiplayer game it is a competitive advantage and cheating.

Stop pretending like this is some noble creation of the community. It is a nightmare for the community who are trying to run cheat free servers.

Hypernetic
05-10-2012, 08:32 AM
It's pretty fucking simple, just make mod servers and no mod servers. Have something similar to valves SV_Pure where any modified files or scripts are rejected by the server.

Really simple.

b0rsuk
05-10-2012, 11:59 AM
DICE is just protecting its Intellectual Property. How would you feel if some hackers or other criminals destroyed your artistic vision ?

Hypernetic
05-10-2012, 12:00 PM
DICE is just protecting its Intellectual Property. How would you feel if some hackers or other criminals destroyed your artistic vision ?

That's not it at all...

NathanH
05-10-2012, 12:06 PM
Multiplayer gamers are probably enemies of gaming anyway, so they deserve to be banned, and possibly set on fire.

Hypernetic
05-10-2012, 12:30 PM
Multiplayer gamers are probably enemies of gaming anyway, so they deserve to be banned, and possibly set on fire.

Hmm, yes. Indeed.

bonkers
05-10-2012, 12:51 PM
DICE is just protecting its Intellectual Property. How would you feel if some hackers or other criminals destroyed your artistic vision ?
Deny, complain, release a DLC and then quit working in videogames?

Nalano
05-10-2012, 12:57 PM
DICE is just protecting its Intellectual Property. How would you feel if some hackers or other criminals destroyed your artistic vision ?

I imagine a world where Team Fortress was never made because it wasn't anything like Half Life.

Also lol modders are hackers now.

Hypernetic
05-10-2012, 01:13 PM
I imagine a world where Team Fortress was never made because it wasn't anything like Half Life.

Also lol modders are hackers now.

And criminals!

TechnicalBen
05-10-2012, 01:14 PM
DICE is just protecting its Intellectual Property. How would you feel if some hackers or other criminals destroyed your artistic vision ?
I'd thank them. Really, have you seen my artistic vision? It's almost as bad and bland as Dice's. ;)

Nalano
05-10-2012, 01:15 PM
And criminals!

Comprehensive list of games destroyed by their mod scenes:









It's like voter ID laws: Let's fuck up the whole process to protect against a threat that doesn't actually exist! There's no ulterior motive here at all!

Sparkasaurusmex
05-10-2012, 02:14 PM
DICE isn't protecting intellectual property, they are just trying to squeeze every penny out of players. Want to run a server? Sure, you can have "your very own" just rent one from these guys! That means no real "custom" servers, and no modding, because they don't want to support that stuff on their servers... and we can't run servers, so...

Too bad DICE never experienced one of their games doubling in popularity because of a total conversion...so much that their next game would be made to be more like the mod and less like the original. hmm

Tikey
05-10-2012, 02:23 PM
am I the only one that interpreted b0rsuk's post as sarcasm?

CuriousOrange
05-10-2012, 02:27 PM
The point is, if they allowed modding then this mod wouldn't HAVE to do anything dodgy. It's is DICE or EA being silly. And as for their art style, pff. It's not theirs anyway, it was completely stolen from Michael Bay and it looks silly and monotone. The mod makes the game look so gorgeous :(

Shooop
05-10-2012, 02:36 PM
am I the only one that interpreted b0rsuk's post as sarcasm?

Given the idiocy of some regular posters (COUGH Kadayi COUGH) and how some people will white-knight a video games publishing company to the death, it's sadly not likely he's sarcastic.

Nalano
05-10-2012, 02:47 PM
am I the only one that interpreted b0rsuk's post as sarcasm?

At this point, I wouldn't believe him even if he​ told me he was being sarcastic.

Finicky
06-10-2012, 02:10 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4B9l5CC1Po


If you think that is a good flight model, I guess you are right... there is no argument because we will never agree.

DC Helis were a fudge job that essentially put an aircraft propeller in the middle of the helicopter. This meant it was massively unstable because the thrust was focused in such a tiny area. That did make it maneuverable, but it was actually closer to a brick with a jetpack strapped to it that the choppers DICE has made. DICE's helicopters do things like...react to impacts instead of ignoring newtonian physics when things hit them. They also lose lift when the rotors go beyond a certain angle.

So as to dumbing down the physics, that is hardly a fact. The physics have gotten more complicated and realistic. Older games were less complex and less able to model reality, this made them more abuseable and difficult to learn with counter-intuitive physics.

I will grant there are issues, like the jets getting turned into gliders....but claiming older BF games had better physics is laughable for anyone who actually remembers the issues in them.

You aren't arguing for better physics, you are arguing for worse physics so that people can congregate around the stupid stuff that happens with poor physics modelling. That's your taste. I would suggest that if bonkers physics fun is your thing and the loopy things people do in those videos aren't good enough for you, then BF might not be the series for you anymore. Seems like all you enjoyed were accidents of bad or limited programming.

I would feel roughly the same pity for a person refusing to buy the latest Valve game because it made surf maps impossible. None.


DC helis had inertia, angular momentum and weight.
BF3 ones don't, (or if they do, they modeled the engines to have ridiculous amounts of power to negate all three in an instant).

In DC you could get some good momentum, yaw your heli 90 degrees, lower the throttle a bit angle down and have that momentum carry you through a straferun , while still being able to make adjustments based on throttle/orientation of thrust.
In bf3 you can not.

In DC your engine took time to spool up if you gunned it, so it would take time to regain thrust if you had lowered the power a lot, in bf3 your engine and rotors magically ignore the laws of physics and spool up to full powa near instantly.

DC helis lost stability beyond a certain roll angle because that is what real helicopters do... DC helis follow the rule of physics, bf3 helis handle like they are suspended on rubber band strings that are manipulated by a puppeteer.
In dc if you fucked up you had better be at a good altitude to be able to recover, else you got punished like all the scrubs who could never land or take off properly.

Momentum in DC meant you had to plan your manouvres , in bf3 you constantly pull off physics defying manouvres and turns, the physics and handling couldn't have LESS to do with the thrust delivered by the prop or the weight of the helicopter that is plowing through the skies.

Hell, bf3 won't even let you fly backwards at speed with your nose pitched up at all, simply because of the hackjob physics, your heli will just really slowly meander backwards at some default speed set by the game engine.

Again, let me remind you of the very first point, the total lack of momentum and angular momentum, they are real, objective and objectively dumb down the gameplay and handling big time.


DC handling was more punishing, much more rewarding, much more deliberate and much more elaborate.
DICE themselves have never been able to do heli physics, I bought bf:vietnam back in 2004 or whenever it was released because of the helis , but they were so hilariously badly simulated, stomping all over the gameplay. Nothing changed since then.
DC physics were intuitive, bf3s are not, you seem to confuse forgiving and arcadey for intuitive.

Thank god they hired (and disbanded) trauma though! oh man are we lucky to be able to enjoy DICE's artistic vision™
SHit and dust and jelly and blur and bloom all over my face! Fuck gameplay! Fuck colors! Fuck the community.

Also linking a video in which the comments praise the handling is really going to convince the outsider that you are right!

BobbyFizz
06-10-2012, 02:31 AM
I love these rants, carry on!