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View Full Version : Dishonored - of thieves and kings. Spoilers! (Buy it, play it, then come here)



Revisor
12-10-2012, 01:28 PM
So, I finished Dishonored and am absolutely excited.

Let's talk about it.
Topics for the start:

1. Outsider obviously has many agents in the world. Corvo, Daud, Granny Rags. What's his agenda? One book connects him to the whales (among others). Does he represent mythos and magic, as opposed to technical progress?
Whales and sea (nature?) vs their exploitation via whale oil?

When I killed Granny Rags, there were no repercussions from him.
He knows about the ancient city that used to be in Dunwall's place thousand years ago.

Why would he help Corvo? What's his gain, his angle?

2. Who is Granny Rags? Emperor himself asked her to be his wife and she refused. She can be heard talking to her imaginative "lover with dark eyes" (Outsider, no doubt) who obviously exploits her, promises her his love, sometimes chides her or is angry because she failed his task.

3. Who is Corvo? The first Lord Protector from outside of Gristol, from Serkonos, the same as Daud, who mentions losing his hope unlike the young one (remember correctly?).
3a. Is Corvo the late Empress' lover? Is he Emily's biological father?

4. The heart might be the Empress, right? There was a hint of it somewhere, IIRC.

5. When I came to Anton Sokolov's lab and heard him and his audiograph, I thought he was creating a more resilient strain of the plague. Did I misunderstand it? Was he testing ineffective elixir mixtures?

Revisor
13-10-2012, 02:29 PM
So who has finished it yet and wants to talk about the details?

Polycrates
14-10-2012, 12:15 PM
Okay I'll bite. I can't help but feel they kept a bunch of this stuff deliberately vague so I'm not sure there's real answers...

The vibe I got from the Outsider was "bored ancient god".
He talks about helping Corvo just because he finds him interesting, and his later chats when you find runes suggested to me that he just wanted to see what you'd do. There's also one bit where someone is trying to get powers from the Outsider but he finds them boring so he doesn't. So yeah I think his agenda is "give powers to interesting people who are likely to stir the pot and see what happens for his own amusement".

There's a definite suggestion that Corvo is Emily's father...there's hints about Corvo being the Empress' lover, there's no sign of any Emperor around, and the admiral's journal at the end says "is he really her father?". Seems like it would be a pretty obvious rumour to get spread though, especially when he's such a father figure anyway, but I would still go with "probably".

The heart sounds like the Empress, and talks at one point about a personal relationship with one of the characters (Sokolov I think?)....and it certainly seems like the sort of thing someone like the Outsider might want to do. I kind of assumed it was, but then it doesn't really betray any personal connection when talking about Emily so I dunno.

Granny Rags I thought was just another of the Outsider's pawns, driven mad by his gifts. Slackjaw mentions the stories of "Granny" when he was a kid, so she's clearly been around a very long time as well. I stumbled on her shrine (and the outsider chat) before I killed her though, so I don't know what he would say if she was already dead.

Barnox
14-10-2012, 12:55 PM
In addition to all the 'Corvo is the father" stuff:

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/596984281147553424/967D6EDEA34EDE533F040D17D4ACEAD0E9199375/

Revisor
14-10-2012, 03:20 PM
Yeah, Emily definitely sees Corvo as a father figure. Everything points to it. But that just might be a misdirection. Maybe he is her uncle and his brother, Emily's father and the Empress' lover is already dead (just thinking out loud about the possibilities). :)

Polycrates, you're right, Slackjaw mentions Granny having been around (and strange and possibly old?) when he was a kid. And he might be what? In his thirties, fourties? Then again kids see all adults as old.

I took the rune after I killed her and the Outsider didn't comment it at all, which might be something the devs forgot to do or more likely he simply doesn't care about her, as can be heard from her longing and hurt monologues.

Tei
14-10-2012, 04:38 PM
1. Outsider obviously has many agents in the world. Corvo, Daud, Granny Rags. What's his agenda? One book connects him to the whales (among others). Does he represent mythos and magic, as opposed to technical progress?
Whales and sea (nature?) vs their exploitation via whale oil?

He is a godlike creature that can't die, but want to be entertained.

3. Who is Corvo? The first Lord Protector from outside of Gristol, from Serkonos, the same as Daud, who mentions losing his hope unlike the young one (remember correctly?).
3a. Is Corvo the late Empress' lover? Is he Emily's biological father?

It can be either way, what is sure is that is the father figure.


4. The heart might be the Empress, right? There was a hint of it somewhere, IIRC.

Is the same voice actor (its listed like that in the credits). So I think is the same character.

Stevo
14-10-2012, 08:28 PM
Did anyone at the end think that you just removed 2 dictators for another? Emily's final speech is horrifying.

mbthegreat
14-10-2012, 08:32 PM
Did anyone at the end think that you just removed 2 dictators for another? Emily's final speech is horrifying.

Did you get the high chaos ending?

Stevo
14-10-2012, 08:36 PM
Yeah though I only ever did two high chaos missions (both at the end cause fuck restraint when you'v been double crossed. One I killed 41 people. The other was only 3 but it must of carried over). What happens in the last sequence if it's low chaos?

mbthegreat
14-10-2012, 08:46 PM
Yeah though I only ever did two high chaos missions (both at the end cause fuck restraint when you'v been double crossed. One I killed 41 people. The other was only 3 but it must of carried over). What happens in the last sequence if it's low chaos?

Low chaos SPOILER Peiro and Sokolov work together to make a cure for the plague and everything is made all better again.

Revisor
14-10-2012, 11:12 PM
Low chaos ending is beautiful, basically an all around happy ending. Emily will be called "Emily the Wise", Piero and Sokolov create a cure together, Samuel opens his own pub where Corvo will drink in the evenings. :)

Alex Bakke
15-10-2012, 12:03 PM
One thing I was really stunned by, is how original the IP is. I mean, it's sort of steampunk, but... There's something about it that fascinated me, the books strewn around, the pistols people used. A mixture of Edwardian, Georgian and Tudor themes and architecture, as well as hints of the renaissance.

Then there's the whales.. I was really surprised they weren't featured more. I assumed they would be the main plot point of the game, the scandal you fought to uncover, to save the whales. Seems like a weak Greenpeace campaign when I put it like that, but there were so many hints throughout (Books, the heart).

Oh yeah, one more thing - The cast! All star cast here. Brad Dourif, Chloe Moretz, Lena Headey, Susan Sarandon, John Slattery.

Carrie Fisher was supposed to be the voice of the loudspeakers as well, but I didn't notice her.

mbthegreat
15-10-2012, 09:15 PM
The whales are interesting, more so is water / the sea throughout the whole game.

The sea and water in general are important. The sea gives Dunwall its power, through its links to the other islands and in the game's not so distant past through access to whales, and with them "trans", the driver of the industrial revolution. As the plague sets in the sea suddenly becomes a problem, rather than a source of power. The sea wall fails, and the industrial district floods. There is dramatic irony to the whaling industry drowning. The plague places the whole city at the mercy of water, Samuel says that there is no way in or out of the Hound Pits apart from by river, and it seems that the river is the only way around the whole city. There is also a link between water and magic, one of the bone charms allows you to recharge mana through drinking water.

The water is the binary opposite of the city, just as magic is the opposite of the city's technology. The overseers try to suppress magic and the outsider, but it seems that they don't have a great deal of success. There is clearly an affinity between magic and whales, the runes etc are all made of whale bone. The whale is an intermediate between magic and technology, which it gives it symbolic power. Similarly the whale crosses between water and city.

I think there is an argument that the plague is punishment for the city's avarice and exploitation of whales. The plague is introduced the Lord Regent yes, but there is also some suggestion in the game that the outsider pushes it to crisis point. At one point you find journal that states rats get much worse around one group of people after they are joined by a person carrying a rune. Rats are clearly of the outsider, Corvo can summon rats, Granny Rags uses swarms of rats etc. The outsider is like the sea, and therefore dangerous and chaotic, the plague is the undoing of the established power structure, but is not necessarily a force for good.

I have a question, why are there so many dog cages everywhere?

Barnox
15-10-2012, 09:31 PM
Likely for Wolfhounds, but maybe they were reduced late production. Or just there for clutter.
Could even be for storing/moving/trapping rats.

About where the plague came from: It is explained ingame, if you explore enough.

mbthegreat
15-10-2012, 09:42 PM
Likely for Wolfhounds, but maybe they were reduced late production. Or just there for clutter.
Could even be for storing/moving/trapping rats.

About where the plague came from: It is explained ingame, if you explore enough.

Further than introduced by the Spymaster / Lord Regent? Do tell.

Wolfenswan
15-10-2012, 10:02 PM
My guess on the plague is that while introduced by the Lord Regent the Outsider/his agents had their hands in it, especially Granny Rags and her "birdies".

I believe one preorder box contains a journal from "Granny Rags"/Very Moray with more detail on her background.

Revisor
15-10-2012, 10:33 PM
mbthegreat, very interesting thoughts regarding the link between magic, water, whales and the Outsider.
There is also a lot of water in The Void.

As for the plague, Sokolov brought it from his voyages but the Spymaster unleashed it on the populace, starting in the poor districts (where the disease is the most evolved, according to Giovani's diary, IIRC), no?
I haven't noticed any hint that the Outsider might have helped spreading the plague.

Bork Titflopsen
16-10-2012, 02:11 AM
I haven't noticed any hint that the Outsider might have helped spreading the plague.

No, but the connection between the outsider and rats is certainly there.

On the subject of the outsider, if you take a step back and try to look at the events in Dishonored from his perspective you'll see that he experiences time much like a mathematical equation. You can change the variables and thus change the outcome, but the equation will always remain the same. Furthermore, I think he does know the equation, but doesn't have all the answers, because you can't really predict the unpredictability of the human psyche. By granting people his mark and creating chaos in the world he changes the variables of the equation and get's a new result.

This leads me to believe that more than anything the outsider is an analogue to both the developers and the players. The developers were pretty honest with their intentions for the game from the very beginning. "We want to give players these tools, just to see what they'll do with it." In this case we, the players, are the variables in the equation. Similarly, the player takes on the role of the outsider himself. After playing through the game once and knowing how the story goes, you are invited to go back and redo missions. To try things you didn't try the first time or to do things just to see what happens.

Also, did anyone else feel they screwed up the pacing of the storyline big time? Maybe it's the fact that they let you sleep once just to set up the outsider and his mark, but I'm pretty sure the game just blatantly skips ahead six days for no apparent reason. The story apparently takes place over the course of a couple of months, but I felt it all happened within a week.

Wolfenswan
16-10-2012, 02:45 AM
Also, did anyone else feel they screwed up the pacing of the storyline big time? Maybe it's the fact that they let you sleep once just to set up the outsider and his mark, but I'm pretty sure the game just blatantly skips ahead six days for no apparent reason. The story apparently takes place over the course of a couple of months, but I felt it all happened within a week.

Seriously? I thought the same, especially as the dialogue with Hemlock/that noble guy hinted towards it, always excusing for asking one more thing of me, "giving you little time to rest" etc.

Bork Titflopsen
16-10-2012, 03:19 AM
Yeah man, I believe it was the transition between some of the earlier levels where they skipped those days.

Oshada
16-10-2012, 05:35 AM
It's rather heartening to hear a game has a happy ending! I think I might get it during Christmas sales, considering I have yet to finish bloody LA Noire.

Alex Bakke
16-10-2012, 07:44 AM
Yeah, time was fucked up. The space between you failing to save the empress and escaping the prison was *six months* but they didn't convey that well at all. I only realised that a few levels in.

AlexClockwork
16-10-2012, 04:33 PM
Yeah, time was fucked up. The space between you failing to save the empress and escaping the prison was *six months* but they didn't convey that well at all. I only realised that a few levels in.

Actually, I think that's pretty clear, and I don't think that's what the previous posts were complaining about. It's more about the time between the missions.

For example, when money stops flowing from the Boyle family it HAS to take some time before it really affects the Lord Regent, but it's not very well reflected in the game.

Barnox
16-10-2012, 05:22 PM
As much as it pains me to say, maybe some filler would have been useful. Corvo doing investigative missions, sabotage, something.
The "Capture Sokolov" mission threw me a little because 90% of the game is "Get to your target, stab him in the neck".

Sic
17-10-2012, 04:56 AM
As much as it pains me to say, maybe some filler would have been useful. Corvo doing investigative missions, sabotage, something.
The "Capture Sokolov" mission threw me a little because 90% of the game is "Get to your target, stab him in the neck".

Not unless you want it to be.

AlexClockwork
17-10-2012, 07:37 AM
Not unless you want it to be.

That's it. I spent my whole first playthrough not killing anyone and completing side missions. Second playthrough, I'm doing some roleplaying ("what would this Corvo act like if...").

JackShandy
17-10-2012, 10:06 AM
As much as it pains me to say, maybe some filler would have been useful. Corvo doing investigative missions, sabotage, something.

Plenty of investigation and sabotage missions around if you want to try them. The game just never forces you.

Barnox
17-10-2012, 05:24 PM
I did do a lot of searching around, side missions and the like. The individual mission's main goals are still "Eliminate the High Overseer" and such, though.
It just seems like these events happen in a vacuum. If it really does take place over weeks and months, what happens in between? We know of no events that happen. In the background we can hear about how the Overseers are picking a new one, then later that it is Martin. No timeframe is given, though, so it may as well be happening one day to the next.

We also know of nothing Corvo does outside missions. Is Corvo just put into a cryo chamber outside of missions? Even something like Emily remarking that he baked an excellent cake last week would be something.

Mohorovicic
17-10-2012, 05:33 PM
What? Other than the half-year time gap after Empress' assassination, everything takes place in real time. Plus when you sleep, you sleep. So the whole game takes place over several days, a week at most.

Sic
17-10-2012, 05:41 PM
What? Other than the half-year time gap after Empress' assassination, everything takes place in real time. Plus when you sleep, you sleep. So the whole game takes place over several days, a week at most.

Which, as other people have pointed out, is a bit silly.

After all, the game tells you that there are pretty far reaching repercussions for your actions. It does have a slight issue with the feeling of time passing.

Mohorovicic
17-10-2012, 06:00 PM
How is that silly?

Lord Regent doesn't need to literally run out of money; he only needs to be in a position to run out of money. Taking out W. Boyle takes care of that.

The repercussions for your actions aren't to be taken literally, otherwise it makes no sense no matter how much time has passed. The city lost third of its population to the plague, what difference few dozen dead guards would make?

Barnox
17-10-2012, 06:47 PM
Martin goes from being left for dead to being High Overseer in three/four days?

Also, Watchtowers are set up within a 24 hour period? Pierro goes from no hint of electronic work, to a few pylon bits, to a fully functioning superpylon within a week?

The feel of the game is that it is all happening in real time, but the pacing of the events makes it seem a bit rushed. Bloody fantastic game, but Corvo manages to overthrow an entire regime in a week by removing 6 people.

Sic
17-10-2012, 07:41 PM
The repercussions for your actions aren't to be taken literally, otherwise it makes no sense no matter how much time has passed.

Um, how are they to be taken, then? It could make perfect sense, if the game had shown time passing by, and not having everything happen within a few days, as it is now.

If a political figure dies, a change will not happen over night.


The city lost third of its population to the plague, what difference few dozen dead guards would make?

Did anyone mention anything about dead guards making a difference?

Mohorovicic
17-10-2012, 08:36 PM
That's what the game tells you as far as your actions go doesn't it? "Smaller bodycount leads to less rats and plague victims and a less dark outcome", or something like that.


Martin goes from being left for dead to being High Overseer in three/four days?

Again, that's more of a plothole in general than time issue. He wouldn't go from being left for dead to High Overseer within months, either. Years... maybe, if ever.


Also, Watchtowers are set up within a 24 hour period?

Sure, why not?


Pierro goes from no hint of electronic work, to a few pylon bits, to a fully functioning superpylon within a week?

Superpylon? The thing is man-sized.


Bloody fantastic game, but Corvo manages to overthrow an entire regime in a week by removing 6 people.

I'm fairly certain there were moments in our own history where regimes were overthrown in less time by killing even less people.

Revisor
17-10-2012, 10:46 PM
It's pretty clear that Martin becomes the High Overseer thanks to The blackmail diary from the previous High Overseer.

Jac
18-10-2012, 12:28 AM
Absolutely loved this game - very rarely do i play games more than once past completion but can see many playthroughs of this.

Does anyone know how much the gameworld / ending change depending on player actions above the more weepers/rats thing?

Stuff like:
- Does saving Slackjaw vs helping granny vs killing Slackjaw + granny have any effect or is it just one of those "what will you do" type things that the outsider says in one of his monologues.
- Does the outsider change his tone with you depending on your chaos rating as the game progresses?
- Does high / low chaos just equate to good vs bad or does some of the plot change slightly beyond emilys reactions etc., which was actually pretty superb/worrying to hear the effect my botched assasinations had on her world view.
- Did anyone else kill samuel after he dropped you off for the last mission? Didn't seem to have any impact on anything for me.

Kannaaashi
18-10-2012, 07:39 AM
have to agree with the storyline. Played it in xbox and was really disappointed with the ending. I still find Corvo to be very corrupted XD

Revisor
18-10-2012, 08:05 AM
Agree with what? I for one think the story is simple and effective. The writing and dialogues are very good.

JackShandy
18-10-2012, 10:27 AM
I did do a lot of searching around, side missions and the like. The individual mission's main goals are still "Eliminate the High Overseer" and such, though.

You can complete those missions through investigation and sabotague, though. I completed all the missions by capturing the target, so the solokov mission was more of the same for me.

AlexClockwork
18-10-2012, 04:39 PM
have to agree with the storyline. Played it in xbox and was really disappointed with the ending. I still find Corvo to be very corrupted XD

I'm guessing you got the High Chaos ending, then. The Low Chaos one is beautiful.

ado
19-10-2012, 01:58 AM
I've just beaten the game a few hours ago, it's such a refreshing and brilliant game. Certainly one of the best I've played all year.

I didn't try to get any special goals like no kills, I just played and acted on what I felt and explored the levels how I wanted to. And I love the design of these missions; the levels are not huge but they're so damn dense, both horizontally and vertically, and provide so many opportunities for amazing gameplay moments. Took me about 22 hours to get through it on normal (according to Steam) and I'm already looking forward to playing it again.

heretic
19-10-2012, 10:28 AM
I didn't try to get any special goals like no kills, I just played and acted on what I felt and explored the levels how I wanted to.

That's pretty much how I'm playing it too, if I get discovered I will try to defend myself so heads will roll (but mostly I'll probably die :P)

Depending on how you like to play the game I recommend going to very hard difficulty. I started it on hard but had to switch to very hard as anything but that didn't really force you to use stealth at all - yet even in very hard if you get discovered you can still keep things under control if you're fast enough / blink the hell away from trouble :)

kataras
19-10-2012, 10:47 AM
What I found weird was that it seems to me that chaos level depends mostly on how you take out the 'targets' of each level. I was playing mostly stealth and I went with the non-violent ways of dispatching the targets up to and including Lady Boyle's last party. For the Regent I decided he had to be killed in a noisy manner to set an example so I butchered my way to him (mostly killing from the shadows). When I saw him I tranqed him and killed all his men. At the end of the mission I got low chaos. Next mission I killed every assassin but spared Daud. Low chaos again. In the one after that, I killed all the guards and both scientists (by mistake, handled wrongly a whale oil canister). High chaos in 3 missions in total. So I arrive at the last mission with High Chaos.

Seems a bit weird that you can murder most people in a level but if you spare the 'target' you get away with it.

AlexClockwork
19-10-2012, 01:11 PM
It doesn't work that way. If you kill (more or less) more than 20% of the characters in a mission, it's suposed to be High Chaos. It never tells you mission by mission, but the total, anyway, so I guess it can be kind of confusing. If you were killing few enemies in the first levels, it's normal that it doesn't instantly get you to High Chaos if you kill a lot of people in a level.

Revisor
19-10-2012, 01:15 PM
Then again it would make sense that the targets are more important in the city structure than a random guard.

Then again the mission with Daud is very long and in the second half there are a lot of civilians and weepers, so killing every assassin might still not have tripped the threshold.

ado
19-10-2012, 01:40 PM
Then again it would make sense that the targets are more important in the city structure than a random guard.

Then again the mission with Daud is very long and in the second half there are a lot of civilians and weepers, so killing every assassin might still not have tripped the threshold.

I almost had done that mission with zero kills and zero alarms. Then one of those damn plants startled me, which made me fire of a shot from my pistol like a bitch, which prompted a butload of weepers to come after me, which forced me to kill them all...

But not that it mattered for my overall chaos level. Hell I messed up pretty bad in the 2nd mission after I infiltrated the building where the target was. Had 52 kills by the end of that one. The game was like, yep, high chaos all the way for you buddy, gonna have to blow some angels or something to get out of this one...

Firkragg
19-10-2012, 10:47 PM
I was mildly disappointed you didn't get to hear more about the Outsider, if you can call that a complaint. I found him very interesting and thought he'd play a part in the final mission. Then again, it does seem to fit with my view of him, a god-like being who embodies pure Chaos in some form, who loves to see the worms squirm under his magnifying glass. Did he have some overarching goal? Who knows. I'd certainly be up for more if Arkane Studios could manage a sequal of equal quality.

Vicious
20-10-2012, 06:16 PM
I enjoyed the game thoroughly, but found a serious dissonance between the reviews I read and the game I played.

1) The stealth system is shit. It's easy, but it's incredibly poor.
2) The levels are pretty forgettable and quite linear.
3) I found it very silly and offputting that most missions had a large boat in broad daylight approaching a high security area and letting you off right beneath their noses.

Essentially, if it wasn't for all the (positive) comparisons to Thief I'd have a lot less issues :D

AlexClockwork
23-10-2012, 11:44 PM
So... I've been noticing some changes in my second playthrough. The latest one is, for example, not finding Slackjaw's man in the sewers and not being able to acces the area in which Slackjaw and Granny Rags are. Any idea of why this happened?

Also, in the Boyle's mission I had to kill Esma instead of Waberly, as the first time, but that seems logical to be random.