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Diesel-
12-10-2012, 09:22 PM
Rumor: Valves New IP Leaked, Titled Stars of Barathrum, Concept Art Inside
Read more at


http://gamingbolt.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/gxLJM-e1350055046489.jpg (http://gamingbolt.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/gxLJM-e1350055046489.jpg)



Valve is supposedly working on a bunch of new projects, and one of them is an open world space game called Stars of Barathrum. Apparently, the title is extremely ambitious in its scope, and we may have our first look at it via these amazing concept arts.
Now, of course, this should be taken with a pinch of salt, but according to facepuncha well known gaming forumsome of these images belong to Valves new IP. Apparently, you have the ability tocommand large cruisers and capital ships, and again, as mentioned above, this looks something that is very ambitious, especially considering the type of games Valve has released so far.
According to the poster who leaked these images, Valve is investing a lot of resources into this game, and who knows it may end up as a free-to-play MMO, too, considering Valve has shown a lot of interest in that type of business model and encourages it as well.


An inside source has confirmed that SOB (Valves new IP) is an unannounced game entitled Stars of Barathrum (working title). Plays like privateer/freelancer but also with the ability to command larger cruisers and capital ships. Its a very vast and open-world game where you choose your own adventure, a lot of internal resources are being put into SOB, reads the Facepunch post.
What is interesting is the fact that these concept arts are developed byPeter Königa concept artist. He was an ex-Valve employee who worked with them from 2008-2012.

http://gamingbolt.com/stars-of-barathrum-open-world-space-game-from-valve-concept-art-leak

Heliocentric
12-10-2012, 09:25 PM
Nope.

Stars of nonsense word does not fit valves nonclementure.

Half-life
Portal
Left 4 Dead

(Counterstrike and Team Fortress were not named by valve)

Edit: If valve had a "place holder" name it would be simple, and likely it would stick.

Smashbox
12-10-2012, 09:32 PM
If true, this is quite exciting.

Even if it's an MMO. I've never known Valve to exploit their customers.

Diesel-
12-10-2012, 09:33 PM
If true, this is quite exciting.

Even if it's an MMO. I've never known Valve to exploit their customers.

Its better be open world FPS set in space

Battle Programmer Spike
12-10-2012, 09:44 PM
Heh, Barathrum is the name of the Spirit Breaker in DotA. I doubt it will be the final name, if this is even somewhat real.

Bhazor
12-10-2012, 10:01 PM
"forum" "unnamed source" "alleged" "leaked"

Seems legit.

Smashbox
12-10-2012, 10:10 PM
Not that I am a sucker for unsourced reporting, but:


What is interesting is the fact that these concept arts are developed by Peter König–a concept artist. He was an ex-Valve employee who worked with them from 2008-2012. You can check his resume over here.

Read more at http://gamingbolt.com/stars-of-barathrum-open-world-space-game-from-valve-concept-art-leak#KGwIq8CRCrkUGtrm.99

gundato
12-10-2012, 10:12 PM
Sounds interesting. Open world games are popular, so Valve would definitely be cashing in on that (as is their way). The space aspect makes me suspicious though, since that doesn't seem to be "what people want" right now.

Of course, I hope I am wrong. Because Valve will make/publish an amazing game, then the rest of the industry trends will be along the same line, and I'll finally have something other than Freespace to play :p

DaftPunk
12-10-2012, 11:42 PM
Fuck this shit,end Half Life series,then continue with other shit.

MoLAoS
13-10-2012, 12:11 AM
The description of the game sounds vastly similar to Star Citizen.

Privateer/Freelancer but with carriers that can carry other players ships? Open world persistent space sim? Certainly coincidental timing if not a rip off.

Oak
13-10-2012, 01:00 AM
Stars of Batharoom.

Kadayi
13-10-2012, 01:02 AM
I do recall that CA stuff being photographed some time back and it certainly looked like Valve were at least toying with the idea of something space/character based given all the ship/alien designs although it was clearly embryonic. Given the fact that they decided to do DOTA2 I don't think anyone can say with any certainty that Valve wouldn't do something like this. Although I'd expect them to come up with a far more catchy name than 'Stars of Barathrum'

soldant
13-10-2012, 02:30 AM
Unless Valve have bought out some group who was working on something similar, I don't think they could do a project like this. Valve themselves are good at making stories, but most of the new gameplay mechanics they've come up with have been the ideas of other teams which they've bought out. Portal, L4D, Counter-Strike, DotA, TF2... none of that was from Valve's core that gave us Half Life. Well okay maybe TF2 was but that's because they bought out the QTF guys.

I can't see Valve being able to make such a radical jump into space games. I don't even know if they'd attempt it. The entire thing seems like a big attempt at trolling by some unknown group.

NoodleFighter
13-10-2012, 05:43 AM
*Sees Valve, Sees new game, sees rumor next to it, leaves thread*

Mohorovicic
13-10-2012, 06:21 AM
Barathrum (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IQtddwLwsk)?

Kadayi
13-10-2012, 08:56 AM
Unless Valve have bought out some group who was working on something similar, I don't think they could do a project like this. Valve themselves are good at making stories, but most of the new gameplay mechanics they've come up with have been the ideas of other teams which they've bought out. Portal, L4D, Counter-Strike, DotA, TF2... none of that was from Valve's core that gave us Half Life. Well okay maybe TF2 was but that's because they bought out the QTF guys.

Well it's not like Valve don't have the money. For all anyone knows Gabe might be a huge Elite fan and really wants to make a spiritual successor.

Scumbag
13-10-2012, 09:04 AM
Barathrum (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IQtddwLwsk)?

My first thought when I saw the title. I thank Valve rumor-mongers for making me dust of my copy of Eerie.

TechnicalBen
13-10-2012, 09:10 AM
Stars of Batharoom.

In space, even the biggest ship (like the Enterprise) only has 1 bathroom!

Vandelay
13-10-2012, 10:55 AM
I expect the image is legit, but that doesn't mean this is the next project from Valve. We know the way they work and there is likely to be countless concept art images being made by people that never go any further floating around their office.

Could be interesting if true though. Personally, not so much if it is an MMO, but probably worth keeping an eye on.

soldant
13-10-2012, 11:58 AM
Well it's not like Valve don't have the money. For all anyone knows Gabe might be a huge Elite fan and really wants to make a spiritual successor.
Possibly, but I don't think Valve have the capability to make a game of this genre of any sort of quality, unless they've bought somebody out, or someone had a hidden talent for space games. It just seems way out of character for them.

deano2099
13-10-2012, 12:20 PM
Fuck this shit,end Half Life series,then continue with other shit.

Ahh, but how do you know this isn't Half Life 3?

TillEulenspiegel
13-10-2012, 09:59 PM
open world
ValveNope. This won't happen.

DaftPunk
13-10-2012, 10:40 PM
ahh, but how do you know this isn't half life 3?


omg you are right! Bring it on fatman!

ado
14-10-2012, 12:29 AM
This art seems very much legit. A lot of the art from that video was actually confirmed as legit when it leaked the 1st time a few years ago. A fan that was visiting Valve took a snapshot of a big ass pinboard with all the concept art and leaked it online, and Gabe's comment said something to the extent of "you weren't supposed to see that" when asked to confirm it's legitimacy. At the time many speculated it would be Valve's MMO. Nothing was heard about it since.

There is some new art in there however, mostly the scenic ones (like the one featured in this thread) .

As for the name it does strike me as a working title or maybe even fan wanking. However this project is very much real somewhere in the pits of Valve, as are MANY other projects (including HL3/ep.3).

soldant
14-10-2012, 01:47 AM
I can't see Valve doing an MMO though. If they did, it'd have to be subscription free with something like the MannCo store, which wouldn't make for a fun game (or a profitable one if they only sold sidegrades). I don't doubt that they're working on new IP somewhere in their stunning offices, but an MMO? That seems like too much of a leap.

Mohorovicic
14-10-2012, 06:48 AM
My first thought when I saw the title.

My first throught was actually a planet from Total Annihilation, but I guess they were inspired by the band too maybe.

BillButNotBen
14-10-2012, 08:54 AM
Possibly, but I don't think Valve have the capability to make a game of this genre of any sort of quality, unless they've bought somebody out, or someone had a hidden talent for space games. It just seems way out of character for them.

Having decent writers, programmers and game designers means you can work on any type of project. Games studios don't have to always develop the same genre of games (as much as gamers seem to demand it).

soldant
14-10-2012, 09:57 AM
Having decent writers, programmers and game designers means you can work on any type of project. Games studios don't have to always develop the same genre of games (as much as gamers seem to demand it).
I never said that they couldn't work on it, just that it might not be any good. Valve's core revolves around FPS games, and much of their new IP has come from buying out other developers with new ideas rather than something they came up with entirely on their own from their core team. It seems like too great of a genre leap unless they've acquired some team that really knows what they're doing.

Having decent writers, programmers etc might mean that you have a broad scope to play with, but it doesn't mean that you're going to turn out gold if that team is used to making tight story-driven or competitive FPS games.

palindrome
14-10-2012, 10:30 AM
Nope. This won't happen.

Why? Valve have the resources to make anything that they want. Valve's open development style also means that they could make just about any game, in theory at least.

Mohorovicic
14-10-2012, 11:05 AM
Why? Valve have the resources to make anything that they want.

And that's why they don't really do anything.

CommunistHamster
14-10-2012, 11:09 AM
Concept art, even if it's as impressive as this, it's still just drawings. Artists have to keep up their game, and maybe this guy just loves drawing spaceships and scifi characters for practice. Drawings can be abandoned.

If it were 3d models or engine tests, then I'd be convinced. But this is nothing I couldn't find on http://conceptships.blogspot.co.uk/

Tei
14-10-2012, 11:19 AM
Nope.

Stars of nonsense word does not fit valves nonclementure.

Half-life
Portal
Left 4 Dead

(Counterstrike and Team Fortress were not named by valve)

Edit: If valve had a "place holder" name it would be simple, and likely it would stick.

Counterargument:

We have been seen "SOB_" has part of internal files and names in the Steam engine for years. So this is a indication that this is the internal name. ... that for some reason I can't find again in google :P

ado
14-10-2012, 04:57 PM
I can't see Valve doing an MMO though. If they did, it'd have to be subscription free with something like the MannCo store, which wouldn't make for a fun game (or a profitable one if they only sold sidegrades). I don't doubt that they're working on new IP somewhere in their stunning offices, but an MMO? That seems like too much of a leap.

I really hope it's not an MMO but I don't see why it's such a leap for Valve to be making one? They clearly have the talent and have shown audacity with Steam and their f2p models and money is obviously not an issue.

I think that Valve is a studio that can attempt to do ANYTHING (even a super experimental MMO) and not be afraid of a possible failure.

Vandelay
14-10-2012, 05:01 PM
I really hope it's not an MMO but I don't see why it's such a leap for Valve to be making one? They clearly have the talent and have shown audacity with Steam and their f2p models and money is obviously not an issue.


Agreed. You probably wouldn't have expected Valve to make a move into competitive online gaming a couple of years ago, but both CS:GO and DOTA2 prove otherwise.

In fact, the move from a MOBA and pushing F2P models to an MMO seems like a fairly logic step.

LTK
14-10-2012, 05:05 PM
Yeah, there's no reason Valve wouldn't be able to make a free-to-play space MMO if they had an idea of how to make it work. And if they did, it'd be inconceivable not to have it take place in the half-life universe. Just imagine how far the Combine interdimensional empire stretches!


Counterargument:

We have been seen "SOB_" has part of internal files and names in the Steam engine for years. So this is a indication that this is the internal name. ... that for some reason I can't find again in google :P
That strikes me as more of a pro-argument. If the rumour is partly based on the existence of these files, and it doesn't fit in Valve's naming convention, isn't it more likely that the files are unrelated?

ado
14-10-2012, 05:06 PM
Agreed. You probably wouldn't have expected Valve to make a move into competitive online gaming a couple of years ago, but both CS:GO and DOTA2 prove otherwise.

In fact, the move from a MOBA and pushing F2P models to an MMO seems like a fairly logic step.

You wouldn't expect them to be making their own digital platform, film editing tools and invest in their own AR hardware development, and yet here we are. I think trying out to play around in any other genre is a much smaller leap for Valve than any of those, and saying that "this is not gonna work because they're FPS guys" is just blindly ignoring the sheer talent and track record of this group of people.

Danny252
14-10-2012, 09:09 PM
My first throught was actually a planet from Total Annihilation, but I guess they were inspired by the band too maybe.

Huh, page 2 before someone mentioned that. RPS, you disappoint me :(

Koobazaur
15-10-2012, 02:10 AM
Adding to the counter-points for "this isn't Valve's style" - exactly! If you spent 10 or so years doing solely corridor/mp FPSes, wouldn't you be kind of sick of them and yearn to do something different?

soldant
15-10-2012, 03:23 AM
I really hope it's not an MMO but I don't see why it's such a leap for Valve to be making one? They clearly have the talent and have shown audacity with Steam and their f2p models and money is obviously not an issue.
I never said that it isn't going to happen, just that it doesn't seem like them, and I don't have much hope for it being exceptionally good. An MMO is awfully different from anything else they've done.


Agreed. You probably wouldn't have expected Valve to make a move into competitive online gaming a couple of years ago, but both CS:GO and DOTA2 prove otherwise.
But in saying that, Valve bought out teams that had these ideas, it wasn't something they'd come up with "in-house". See the Team Fortress series, Left4Dead, Counter-Strike, DOTA2, Portal... pretty much everything that isn't Half Life in fact. And as I said, if Valve have bought out some group who properly understood the mechanics, then sure it's possible. I said as much.


Really, guys? You're acting like I've committed some great sin by criticising the industry darling. I love Valve, but most of their "new" stuff has come from other groups that they've absorbed, sort of like a benign EA. I said that I doubt that Valve, on their own, could make something great like what people are suggesting, unless they've found some group that does this sort of thing. I didn't suggest that attempting to make such a project is above them, nor am I saying that they're untalented or severely limited. Just that it's a major leap into the MMO sector which doesn't really seem like a Valve move (unless it relied heavily on an in-game store and was F2P, which probably wouldn't be fun), and their core seems to revolve around FPS games which doesn't suggest they'd have an easy time with it on their own... unless they've found some group that does know all about it.

DaftPunk
15-10-2012, 08:48 AM
Maybe its Half Life in space,i don't believe Valve will do an MMO.

Diesel-
15-10-2012, 09:29 AM
Maybe its Half Life in space,i don't believe Valve will do an MMO.


everything valve make is masterpiece. whatever it is. even JRPG

and if its open world space PC exclusive FPS than ZOMG my mind will be blown and i will be extremely PUMEPD!

DaftPunk
15-10-2012, 09:39 AM
I disagree but whatever floats your boat mister.

LTK
15-10-2012, 09:41 AM
Really, guys? You're acting like I've committed some great sin by criticising the industry darling. I love Valve, but most of their "new" stuff has come from other groups that they've absorbed, sort of like a benign EA. I said that I doubt that Valve, on their own, could make something great like what people are suggesting, unless they've found some group that does this sort of thing. I didn't suggest that attempting to make such a project is above them, nor am I saying that they're untalented or severely limited. Just that it's a major leap into the MMO sector which doesn't really seem like a Valve move (unless it relied heavily on an in-game store and was F2P, which probably wouldn't be fun), and their core seems to revolve around FPS games which doesn't suggest they'd have an easy time with it on their own... unless they've found some group that does know all about it.
That's a good point... Unless everyone was specifically told to keep it under wraps, we would have heard about Valve hiring an experienced team of MMO developers recently. It's not like them to dive headfirst into a completely unknown genre; they always hire people with experience in that field before jumping on any bandwagon.

Did anyone see requests for MMO developers on Valve's job listings recently?

Mohorovicic
15-10-2012, 09:45 AM
everything valve make is masterpiece. whatever it is. even JRPG

and if its open world space PC exclusive FPS than ZOMG my mind will be blown and i will be extremely PUMEPD!

Talk about character-defining posts.

QuantaCat
15-10-2012, 09:59 AM
In space, even the biggest ship (like the Enterprise) only has 1 bathroom!

Sonic showers, they take care of everything.

BillButNotBen
15-10-2012, 10:31 AM
Really, guys? You're acting like I've committed some great sin by criticising the industry darling. I love Valve, but most of their "new" stuff has come from other groups that they've absorbed, sort of like a benign EA. I said that I doubt that Valve, on their own, could make something great like what people are suggesting, unless they've found some group that does this sort of thing. I didn't suggest that attempting to make such a project is above them, nor am I saying that they're untalented or severely limited. Just that it's a major leap into the MMO sector which doesn't really seem like a Valve move (unless it relied heavily on an in-game store and was F2P, which probably wouldn't be fun), and their core seems to revolve around FPS games which doesn't suggest they'd have an easy time with it on their own... unless they've found some group that does know all about it.

I was just saying that a lot of studios, game employees and game designers are quite able to make games from different genres. (not even counting that most studios tend to change their employees over time). Bungie made a good RTS for a Mac FPS team. And a good 3rd person anime action game. And a good console FPS for a studio that hadn't made an FPS since Marathon. Blizzard made a good MMO for a studio that makes RTS. Volition have made a wide range of games. Rare have done the same. Bethesda made an awesome FPS. I don't think Lucasarts had made an FPS before Dark Forces. There are lots of studios that have had great success when entering a new genre, so I don't see why valve wouldn't have the same chance.

Space Indaver
15-10-2012, 11:41 AM
To the chaps who seem to think they have Valve's style figured out: You realise the only game they've made, from scratch, is Half Life, right? Everything else started as a mod and was later absorbed into Valve, or is a sequel.

biz
15-10-2012, 12:15 PM
valve now has employees who have probably made every genre of game
they also have very very very deep pockets

they aren't the same company who made half life & half life 2

but i don't know how good they actually are... it seems CS > CS:S > CS:GO in terms of popularity
CS:GO is so recent... and it flopped? i dont even know

soldant
15-10-2012, 01:01 PM
they aren't the same company who made half life & half life 2
That's because they've purchased lots of little teams with neat ideas. Most of the new Valve games were built on ideas external to the company. Counter-Strike was a mod, TF2 comes from TFC which came from QTF, Portal comes from Narbacular Drop, Left4Dead was purchased from Turtle Rock, DOTA2 comes from... well, DOTA. Before that, they had Half Life... and Half Life 2.

That said I guess it's possible that they're finally working on something totally original using only current in-house staff, but it doesn't seem to be Valve's MO based on their previous activities. They tend to find some other team that has an idea that they like, then they buy the idea (by hiring the team) and run with it, putting in a good(?) story and polishing it up to Valve standard. They seem to like to find people who have a good creative vision and an idea that they're trying to make a reality, and then take it and run with it. Perhaps Greenlight is really just another recruiting ground?


but i don't know how good they actually are... it seems CS > CS:S > CS:GO in terms of popularity
CS:GO is so recent... and it flopped? i dont even know
I don't think that CS is a good indicator of Valve's success. The CS community is a bit strange in that it seems pretty opposed to change - CS: Source didn't really catch on, GO didn't show signs of picking up the slack either. People just seem to like 1.6 more, for whatever reason. I don't think that the relative 'failure' of CS:S or CS:GO is anything to be concerned about.

ado
15-10-2012, 02:20 PM
Well when you think about it Valve already has two MMO-type games. TF2 and DOTA2, only that the carrot chasing is not a mob grind but actually a great online FPS and an ARTS. All the systems of an MMO are in place in one form or another in those two games, only that the gameplay is not utter shit.

As for "Valve can't do this or that because they need to hire new people/have never made it" - that's one of the daftest comments I've ever read. And as someone pointed out earlier many other (and way less talented) teams have performed genre hopping with considerable success.

Also why is this "valve hires people because project x" such a bad rap? They don't hire these people to steal their project or something, Valve is quite capable of making Portal without the "nab drop" guys. But they hire them because they're clearly individuals that are capable of creative IDEAS and executing on them! Everyone else in the industry is an idiot for not doing the same if you ask me.

soldant
15-10-2012, 02:51 PM
Well when you think about it Valve already has two MMO-type games. TF2 and DOTA2, only that the carrot chasing is not a mob grind but actually a great online FPS and an ARTS.
Neither are MMOs. That's a long bow to draw.


As for "Valve can't do this or that because they need to hire new people/have never made it" - that's one of the daftest comments I've ever read
Except you never read it, because I never said that.


Also why is this "valve hires people because project x" such a bad rap?
I never said it was.


Valve is quite capable of making Portal without the "nab drop" guys. But they hire them because they're clearly individuals that are capable of creative IDEAS and executing on them!
So your second sentence is basically a repetition of what I just said. Thanks for agreeing with me. As for your first sentence - what? Valve saw Narbacular Drop, went "Oh that's a cool mechanic, let's hire them to make something similar" and then came up with a nice storyline that fits into the Half Life story. Saying that Valve were quite capable of making Portal without the "nab drop" guys is a useless statement, because they did hire them because of the gameplay mechanic that they came up with.

EDIT: To add to the list, the new mechanic in Portal 2 (the gels) came about from Valve hiring the Tag: the Power of Paint guys to incorporate their mechanic into Portal 2. Hence why I said that they have a history of finding teams with good ideas, hiring them, and then using those ideas in their own games. In terms of in-house originality, so far all we can really see is the Half Life series, and that period when Valve shut down development and just tried to work on prototype game ideas. And then they went with Portal 2...

Feldspar
15-10-2012, 03:32 PM
they aren't the same company who made half life & half life 2

But they are the same company that haven't released HL2 episode 3.

I sincerely hope the Valve have leaked these images just to get people talking, or as a smoke screen, but I suspect that they may just be conceptless art; someone has asked the artist to draw something with spaceships so they can use it as a backdrop.

Sparkasaurusmex
15-10-2012, 03:49 PM
Yep, it's just a backdrop to the new crowd-funding part of Steam, where gamers get to vote, "would you donate to have this game made?" and if it gets enough "yes" votes it eventually opens to donations.

Cooper
15-10-2012, 03:51 PM
3 pages in and only just now does someone (Feldspar) point out the obvious.

Concept art is just that. Concepts. Ideas. It's not like a design document was leaked...

A concept artist draws for their job. They are part of the idea developing process. Ideally it's not a "we want a space MMO, draw some space pictures". Rather it's a "we're throwing ideas around, pitch in with some ideas of your own."

A vast amount of concept art never, ever, gets tied into any tangible product or even develops into a fully fledged proposal.

Valve work by allowing employees to float ideas and develop whatever they like and try to get traction withint he company with it. This is by far most likely the fantasy of a couple of staff members that may (and will probably not ever) evolve into anything else?

dan.
15-10-2012, 04:13 PM
That said I guess it's possible that they're finally working on something totally original using only current in-house staff, but it doesn't seem to be Valve's MO based on their previous activities.

You mean like a Myst inspired action-adventure game (http://half-life.wikia.com/wiki/Prospero)? Or an RPG featuring fairies (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/103065-Valve-Canceled-Fairy-RPG-to-Make-Left-4-Dead)? Or even a submarine game (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/107965-Valve-Has-Unreleased-Submarine-Game-Floating-Around)?

alms
15-10-2012, 04:18 PM
FTR "barathrum" is just a latin word (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/barathrum). I guess any dark sounding latin word has at least one sub-sub-sub-genre-of-metal band named after it.

tomeoftom
15-10-2012, 05:44 PM
Pffft. Nope.

Mohorovicic
15-10-2012, 07:16 PM
FTR "barathrum" is just a latin word (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/barathrum).

I suspected that, but (very) quick search yielded no results. Good to know.

soldant
16-10-2012, 12:49 AM
You mean like a Myst inspired action-adventure game (http://half-life.wikia.com/wiki/Prospero)? Or an RPG featuring fairies (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/103065-Valve-Canceled-Fairy-RPG-to-Make-Left-4-Dead)? Or even a submarine game (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/107965-Valve-Has-Unreleased-Submarine-Game-Floating-Around)?
Except Prospero never got made, and despite what Newell says it probably won't be made either (hell they couldn't make Ep3 after Ep2). The "RPG fairy game" was just a concept and was crap by their own admission. The submarine game was the first thing they worked on and I highly doubt it'll ever see the light of day.

Valve ships FPS games (save for DOTA2) and lately seems to get their new ideas that actually turn into shipped games from other teams. I don't doubt there's all sorts of interesting ideas going on behind the scenes (like when they shut down production purely to play around with different ideas) but the ideas that turn into shipping products lately seem to come from outside the company. Valve have a talent for picking talent... but the question is, if there's all that talent at Valve, why have all their recent games effectively come from ideas developed externally?