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View Full Version : Deus Ex Human Revolution - The First Ever Consolize sequel that live up?



Diesel-
15-10-2012, 02:52 PM
Is Deus Ex HR the first Ever consolize sequel of previous game that is actually live up to its Predecessor and not dumbed down?
Looking back in history there most games (beside few) that gone multiplatform that is ruined such. ruined by console. even Deus Ex IW was so dumb down that i consider its one of the worst game of all time?
but New Deus Ex is only game that i consider gone multiplat and still live up to its Predecessor. discuss

Sakkura
15-10-2012, 02:57 PM
No, because Human Revolutions does not live up to its predecessor.

Diesel-
15-10-2012, 02:58 PM
No, because Human Revolutions does not live up to its predecessor.

But its not dumbed down like most games

Gray Guardian
15-10-2012, 03:01 PM
Ruined by console? Get a life. The quality of the game has little to do with the platform.

ZIGS
15-10-2012, 03:02 PM
Technically The Chronicles of Riddick was an xbox port and it was amazing on PC. And that was in 2004

Diesel-
15-10-2012, 03:04 PM
Technically The Chronicles of Riddick was an xbox port and it was amazing on PC. And that was in 2004

that was excellent game. one of my fav and probably better on PC. like every FPS.

victory
15-10-2012, 03:54 PM
Ruined by console? Get a life. The quality of the game has little to do with the platform.
Dude, please. It's not up for debate that PC games getting a console sequel get crapified a lot of the time. The platform's hardware power, available controllers, average displays, business model, and userbase all play a role. Given all of those differences, expecting the platforms to magically deliver equivalent games and experience is lunacy.

Gray Guardian
15-10-2012, 03:59 PM
Dude, please. It's not up for debate that PC games getting a console sequel get crapified a lot of the time. .

It is indeed up for debate. In fact, it is a commonly held delusion by pc loyalists, who have an easy explanation and blame the Others (console players) for the poor quality of the game, which oftern happens for a variety of different reasons. Actual exapmles of games being blatantly worse from going multiplatform are very few and far between (DX2IW being a famous one).

Sparkasaurusmex
15-10-2012, 04:12 PM
It is more to do with the mainstream market for games growing so much over the last 20 years. Consoles are the dominant hardware when it comes to gaming. er... poorly worded sentence... consoles dominate the market...

So when people are frustrated with "consolitis" it means the mainstreaming of games, or more specifically the focus-grouping of game development.

This is more obvious on console games, where the intended market is just about everyone. The games get ported to PC, where there is more of an enthusiast type of crowd and it leads to frustration in them. Many PC gamers could probably not care less, but others notice how many games, and mostly console ports, seem "dumbed down" or too easy as a result of trying to appeal to everyone, including (mostly including) non-enthusiast or casual gamers.

Consoles are an easy target, but the same issues occur with browser based games, f2p games, and others. You will notice a similar animosity towards these platforms from the more "hardcore" PC gamers.

I believe the onus is on console game developers to show that not all console games have to be neutered to appeal to all. Recent releases of console to PC ports have shown that games can be developed with some mass market appeal but without losing the hardcore gamers' interest.

Grizzly
15-10-2012, 04:41 PM
It is indeed up for debate. In fact, it is a commonly held delusion by pc loyalists, who have an easy explanation and blame the Others (console players) for the poor quality of the game, which oftern happens for a variety of different reasons. Actual exapmles of games being blatantly worse from going multiplatform are very few and far between (DX2IW being a famous one).

Disagree on DX2IW - a lot of it's design decisions are hardly related to it being a multiplatform game, and considering that a XBOX is quite a bit more powerfull then the minimum requirements of Deus Ex I, and due to the Playstation 2 (which is older hardware as opposed to the XBOX) port of Deus Ex being nowhere as small and cramped as IW... I think the Multiplatform is a bit of a sad excuse.

Heck, Mass Effect arguably got better for being MultiPlatform - The first game was an X-Box game later ported to PC, whilst ME2 was a true multiplatform.

Portal and Team Fortress 2 are also multiplatform games, as was Episode 2 (Orange box was Valve's new outing into the console area). Left 4 Dead was also a multiplatform game. Dishonoured is a multiplatform game. XCOM is a multiplatform game. Global Offensive, which IMO is the superiour Counter Strike (Wall banging makes sense now, recoil mechanics are not broken or completley mechanical, etc, yah!) is a multiplatform.

I can go on all day.

Henke
15-10-2012, 04:51 PM
Is Deus Ex HR the first Ever consolize sequel of previous game that is actually live up to its Predecessor and not dumbed down?

Considering the character you have as your avatar it's funny you should miss it: Team Fortress 2.

Honestly I never played the original but considering how popular the (multiplatform) sequel has been for the past half decade I'm going to go ahead and assume that it lives up to the original.

edit: DANG! Grizzly beat me to it!

Grizzly
15-10-2012, 04:56 PM
Considering the character you have as your avatar it's funny you should miss it: Team Fortress 2.

Honestly I never played the original but considering how popular the (multiplatform) sequel has been for the past few years I'm going to go ahead and assume that it lives up to the original.

edit: DANG! Grizzly beat me to it!

No matter, I missed his avatar :P. Still, it can not get said often enough:

TEAM FORTRESS 2 IS A CONSOLIZED SEQUEL.

There you go (It's often lauded as such by all the TFC purists).

qizarate
15-10-2012, 05:00 PM
The only issue which has any real significance to me is control scheme - And even that's becoming an increasingly moot point, since an xbox controller is increasingly becoming an essential piece of kit for most PC gamers. As PC gamers, we're always going to have more choice - console gamers are stuck with a gamepad, we have a choice between that and the ol' mouse n keyboard set-up. The only time when it becomes an issue is when a game has clearly been designed first and foremost to be played with a gamepad, which inevitably constrains the developers, with peripheral M+K controls thrown in on top.

The thing that often gets talked about is of course the hardware limitations imposed by consoles. Now, i'm just a poor student with a fairly mediocre laptop, so actually i'm not so terribly sad if consoles act as a limit on graphical fidelity. It means that i don't need to upgrade every time i want to play a new game. You're probably all going to jump on me for saying that, but i think my perspective is a fairly common one. I'm glad that games that push PC hardware to the limit exist, but i don't really want that to become the norm - Not until i have a job and earn a fair amount of money anyway.

LTK
15-10-2012, 05:19 PM
I see Diesel has not taken Betteridge's Law of Headlines to heart, even though I'm the third person to mention it so far.

Deux Ex: HR was an outstanding game, but I did get the impression that it was held back by being multiplatform.

tomeoftom
15-10-2012, 05:30 PM
Whyyyy is this thread even alive.

DaftPunk
15-10-2012, 05:37 PM
Oh Diesel,you are repeating yourself,this is not GameTrailers.com.

Kadayi
15-10-2012, 06:39 PM
Ruined by console? Get a life. The quality of the game has little to do with the platform.

Agreed +1. Yet another PC master race BS thread.

gundato
15-10-2012, 06:44 PM
Agreed +1. Yet another PC master race BS thread.
You know what's sad?

These days, I think the console fanboys are LESS rabid than the average PC gamer. Yeah they still have occasional holy wars, but it usually boils down to "our hardware is more powerful/we invented motion controls/cell bitches" or "our exclusives are better. Halo VS Killzone*!". I never really see people say "Oh my god, this game is worse because it was designed with XBOX or PC support in mind. PS3 exclusives only!!!"

I think it might have to do with the mentality required to get involved.

To get a "good" gaming PC, you have to invest a fair bit of cash and thought. Hence, elitism
Most people I know with PS3s (myself included) got theirs for a combination of gaming and as a cheap blu-ray player. Hell, my sister actually DID buy a PS3 because it was the cheapest blu-ray player at the time (and she knew I would help her set it up if it meant I could keep the Uncharted 2 that came with it).

And consoles in general support being "friendly" more. Yes, you get swarms of 13 year olds talking about how they stuck their penises in your mother. But the community-gaming (and on the couch gaming) pervades EVERYTHING. So it is less "This is the best game ever" and more "I love playing this game with my friends"

I kind of really want to make a thread to discuss this and the possible reasons behind different behaviors, but I don't think such a thread would work here. Would devolve into "PC gamers are the master race" almost instantly.

*: Killzone is totally better, by the way.

Finicky
15-10-2012, 06:47 PM
It is indeed up for debate. In fact, it is a commonly held delusion by pc loyalists, who have an easy explanation and blame the Others (console players) for the poor quality of the game, which oftern happens for a variety of different reasons. Actual exapmles of games being blatantly worse from going multiplatform are very few and far between (DX2IW being a famous one).
Look at natural selection 2, planetside 2 or tribes ascend.
Now look at all of the multiplatform shooters...

All of these games either wouldn't work with a controller (ns2 as marines with a controller would just be SAD, as would spinfusor in tribes), outscale what can be done on the hardware or are too complex for the target audience.

You'll never see a shooter on a console that has you do more than one thing at a time, hence why dota likes/proper rts/team focused complex fps simply don't and never will exist on the console boxes.

If you can't deal with the fact that those things are the popcorn movie everyman platform then that's on you, not on me or the guy you yelled at for telling you something you don't want to hear.

On topic: kudos to the Deus ex:HR devs for retaining the variation of the original, it is indeed one of the few remakes where the creators remember what made the original good in the first place.
Op was praising a game and the devs, yet you plebs get offended, typical.

Finicky
15-10-2012, 06:50 PM
forum bug....

gundato
15-10-2012, 06:55 PM
Look at natural selection 2, planetside 2 or tribes ascend.
Now look at all of the multiplatform shooters...

All of these games either wouldn't work with a controller (ns2 as marines with a controller would just be SAD, as would spinfusor in tribes), outscale what can be done on the hardware or are too complex for the target audience.

You'll never see a shooter on a console that has you do more than one thing at a time, hence why dota likes/proper rts/team focused complex fps simply don't and never will exist on the console boxes.

If you can't deal with the fact that those things are the popcorn movie everyman platform then that's on you, not on me or the guy you yelled at for telling you something you don't want to hear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribes_Aerial_Assault
*cough* Tribes on a PS2 *cough*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mech_Assault
Mech Assault which was probably more complex than Mechwarrior 4 (arguable with 3 or 2)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starhawk_(2012_video_game)
TPS/RTS hybrid along the lines of the Battlezones

"Team focused complex fps"
CounterStrike, TF2, and Halo all come to mind. Also, the Battlefield series. And OFP (but that one kind of flopped). And Call of Duty. Basically, anything people are playing competitively that isn't Quake (which I think DID get a console release...) is a cross-platform game anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_514
The jury is still out, but it sounds like the EVE people's answer to Planetside. A quick looky sounds like it also uses the "Minions and commander" approach

But if you can't deal with the fact that those things exist (and that I knew about all of them except for the name of Starhawk off the top of my head) then that's on you, not on me or the guy you yelled at for telling you something you don't want to hear.

Maybe you should actually know what you are talking about before you start typing.

Skull
15-10-2012, 06:58 PM
Why are people saying TF2 should be taken into account as a cross-platform game? It is obvious the OP was talking about games where the consoles were on the forefront of the developers mind, and then got a PC port because the developers know they can get a little extra money from us.

TF2 is the exact opposite, I don't know how many updates the console version has but I could imagine it pales compared to the PC version. It also plays like a PC game of old and I can't think of any inspiration Valve would have got from a console game for it. The console version was the side project and certainly not the main focus, and that is why TF2 is one of the most popular shooters on PC.

gundato
15-10-2012, 07:10 PM
Why are people saying TF2 should be taken into account as a cross-platform game? It is obvious the OP was talking about games where the consoles were on the forefront of the developers mind, and then got a PC port because the developers know they can get a little extra money from us.

TF2 is the exact opposite, I don't know how many updates the console version has but I could imagine it pales compared to the PC version. It also plays like a PC game of old and I can't think of any inspiration Valve would have got from a console game for it. The console version was the side project and certainly not the main focus, and that is why TF2 is one of the most popular shooters on PC.

So we only consider games that were bad to be "cross-platform"?

TF2 launched simultaneously on PC and XBOX and a month later on PS3. I don't see there being multiple dev teams, so they were definitely, at the very least, developed in parallel with most of the same staff.

You are right, Valve have neglected the consoles in terms of patches. But that is because it costs money to patch a console game but is "free" for a PC game.

But considering that the game is only different in terms of there being "more" these days, it is definitely an apt comparison. You can't just ignore data that doesn't support your conclusions: This isn't politics :P

Mohorovicic
15-10-2012, 07:13 PM
Why are people saying TF2 should be taken into account as a cross-platform game? It is obvious the OP was talking about games where the consoles were on the forefront of the developers mind, and then got a PC port because the developers know they can get a little extra money from us.

Furthermore, TF2 is a multiplayer-only game with tiny levels. Not exactly hard to put on consoles.

Grizzly
15-10-2012, 07:54 PM
Why are people saying TF2 should be taken into account as a cross-platform game? It is obvious the OP was talking about games where the consoles were on the forefront of the developers mind, and then got a PC port because the developers know they can get a little extra money from us

Well, since the OP was talking about "multiplatform sequels of an originally PC franchise", we decided to take that as a point.
And I am quite sure that consoles were at the forefront of Valve's mind when they developed the new Orange Box games (and Left 4 Dead), simply because they have never done something like that before. The PC version does not suck as a result, neither does it for all the other games we have mentoined so far.



To get a "good" gaming PC, you have to invest a fair bit of cash and thought. Hence, elitism

Slight disagree - most people have an office PC for everyday use. You can either cram a powerfull graphics card into there, or buy a console - either way, you are basically set for games. One does not cost more then the other perse.
Yes, it may take a little more thought (ask a pc store owner, plug in the graphics card as opposed to plug in the TV), but it's not all that special. The elitism might be there, but it is undeserved.


Furthermore, TF2 is a multiplayer-only game with tiny levels. Not exactly hard to put on consoles.

Skyrim is a singleplayer-only game with a wide open world, and it's console iterations are on equal quality to the pc version.

Kadayi
15-10-2012, 08:04 PM
You know what's sad?

These days, I think the console fanboys are LESS rabid than the average PC gamer. Yeah they still have occasional holy wars, but it usually boils down to "our hardware is more powerful/we invented motion controls/cell bitches" or "our exclusives are better. Halo VS Killzone*!". I never really see people say "Oh my god, this game is worse because it was designed with XBOX or PC support in mind. PS3 exclusives only!!!"

True that. You generally find the people spouting 'dumped down' are pretty much the special needs end of the PC community tbh, (real gamers don't don't give a toss about whether a game requires M&K, a controller or a Joystick, they just get on with playing games). There's a lot of begrudging going on (for perceived injustices), but a complete inability to understand that by on large PC alone is not a viable market for the vast majority of major titles in terms of revenue. Nor do they appreciate the fact that the hardware limitations of the consoles have been quite beneficial because it's allowed the technology to bed down for a substantial period and people aren't having to sell a kidney every six months to keep pace with things because graphically we've reached a bit of a plateau. As there's no necessity to render beyond 1080P for consoles now, the bigger push with the next generation is going to be in terms of leveraging multi-core processing and increased complexity within game environments and AI. Looking at what's going on in the E3 watchdogs trailer and you're seeing a glimpse of this sort of layering going on with the myriad different things occuring at the same time. As most people here already likely have Multi-core CPUs were in a good place tbh.

gundato
15-10-2012, 08:09 PM
Oh, one thing I did think of:

People still ARE insanely biased toward the wii and motion gaming. Lots of games have been blasted and ranted against for being built with motion controls in mind.

But the rest of my post still holds true* :p

*: Right down to Killzone 3 kicking massive amounts of space nazi ass

Grizzly
15-10-2012, 08:11 PM
Oh, one thing I did think of:

People still ARE insanely biased toward the wii and motion gaming. Lots of games have been blasted and ranted against for being built with motion controls in mind.

But the rest of my post still holds true* :p

*: Right down to Killzone 3 kicking massive amounts of space nazi ass

Aaargh, don't mention Killzone in my presence :(. It's a shame that I can't play that widely lauded game, which happens to be made by fellow Dutch people, because I don't have a PS3 :(. Damn exclusive policies.

Edit: But apperently it is quite awesome.

Smashbox
15-10-2012, 08:11 PM
Ehhh. Not that good, actually.

Grizzly
15-10-2012, 08:15 PM
Ehhh. Not that good, actually.

Just transmitting what I was told :P.

Oh, now that I am here anyway, Call of Duty was also greatly improved with it's Multiplatform release Call of Duty 2, where it dropped it's very narrow corridor shooting habits which intersected the rather wide levels and went to full on rather wide levels. and that is back in 2005.

gundato
15-10-2012, 08:17 PM
Ehhh. Not that good, actually.

I never actually played Killzone 1 (looking forward to the HD re-release).

2 was a bit rough at times, but overall was fun.

3 though manages to just be non-stop fun. Almost all the angst that 2 had is gone ("Argh Rico, you are stupid and a poopy head" becomes "Holy crap this is awesome"), it manages to capture Max Payne/"movie cover" pretty well in that you will regularly sprint ahead to get better cover, even when under fire. And the set pieces escalated to be VERY fun.

And I actually really liked using it with the Sharpshooter (basically a light gun that uses the PS Move). Was very fun.

Multiplayer is garbage, but I only really cared about the SP.

Grizzly
15-10-2012, 08:39 PM
Why are people saying TF2 should be taken into account as a cross-platform game? It is obvious the OP was talking about games where the consoles were on the forefront of the developers mind, and then got a PC port because the developers know they can get a little extra money from us.

TF2 is the exact opposite, I don't know how many updates the console version has but I could imagine it pales compared to the PC version. It also plays like a PC game of old and I can't think of any inspiration Valve would have got from a console game for it. The console version was the side project and certainly not the main focus, and that is why TF2 is one of the most popular shooters on PC.

Well, TF2 did remove quite a few things from TFC, such as feigning death (feign death means you actually would turn into a pseudo-corpse to get up later on, making it only viable during intense firefights), grenades, the medic gun now takes less skill, etc. etc. - all of these points, in other games, have caused fans to turn around and say "'oi! this game is being dumbed down for consoles!".

The only reason Valve develops all the patches for PC is because they couldn't get the patches out on console due to Sony and Microsoft being weird - this does not mean they have the PC in mind specifically.

dnf
15-10-2012, 10:51 PM
A PC game going multiplatform normally results in a worse game. A console game being ported to pc normally improves the game in one way or another. There is lots of PC master race shotters that where ported to consoles but the quality pales to the original(they can still be good games though, for the console limitations). I still want to see a example of the contrary. If you think about it, 90 porting policy where pretty much better to the PCs, because being treated as the primary platform and all that.

Its funny that RPS community is mostly console gamers lol :D

fiddlesticks
15-10-2012, 10:53 PM
TF2 is an interesting example because it highlights one of the big advantages the PC has: free updates. Nowadays it's strange to think that it originally came out with only six maps and one loadout for all classes. While I tend to rant at some of the changes the game has undergone over the past few years, there's no denying that the constant expansions did wonders for its longevity. The PC version is still going strong after five years while the console version is essentially dead.

That said, the Orange Box is overall a good example of succesfully bringing a sequel to multiple platforms and Valve's game design hasn't really since they started developing for consoles as well. The "dumbing down" of franchises seems to have less to do with games being cross-platform and more to do with developers trying to reach a broader audience. There are some genres that I feel don't really work with a controller, but you don't find these on consoles anyway, so it's a bit of a moot point.

And I wouldn't really say Human Revolution lived up to its predecessor, but that's another topic entirely.

dnf
16-10-2012, 12:27 AM
Compreensive list of PC franchises ruined\partially ruined by mass marketing design philosofy(witch consoles are part of):

Desu Ex(PS2 the conspiracy is the best console deus ex that you can play)
Unreal Tournament
Elder Scrolls
Dragon Age Origins(to a lesser extent)
Dragon Age 2(to a greater extent)
Outcast
Team Fortress
Fallout
Max Payne
FEAR
Call of Dudes
XCOM
Unreal
Syndicate
Rainbow Six
Thief
Halo
Bioshock
Battlefield
Diablo(haha lol)
Mafia
Counter Strike
Crysis
Far Cry
Baldurs Gate
Duke Nukem(10 years to make a console port u mad bro)

Compreensive list of PC games benefited from mass marketing and cross platform design philosofy:

Kadayi
16-10-2012, 12:48 AM
Compreensive list of PC franchises ruined\partially ruined by mass marketing design philosofy(witch consoles are part of)


Where to begin.....

DarkFenix
16-10-2012, 12:52 AM
Where to begin.....

Just don't, I'm not sure even you are qualified to deal with this level of absurdity.

Heliocentric
16-10-2012, 01:07 AM
Just don't, I'm not sure even you are qualified to deal with this level of absurdity.

Oh man... This is pure internet right here.

Kadayi
16-10-2012, 01:07 AM
Just don't, I'm not sure even you are qualified to deal with this level of absurdity.

I'm not sure it's worth anyone's time either, Vs playing XCOM or Dishonored instead.

Heliocentric
16-10-2012, 01:12 AM
Vs playing XCOM or Dishonored instead.

Call me a fool but I'm holding out on discounts while I play Solium Infernum, Bloodbowl, Planetside 2 Beta, Batman AC, Driver San Fran and kinda left footedly... Battlefield 3 ^_^

dnf
16-10-2012, 01:31 AM
Waiting for a discount to pay a reasonable price for games is a fool attitude now?

And the negative reaction to the list brings a smile to my face.

gundato
16-10-2012, 01:48 AM
Yeah, I already have a pretty hefty backlog so I am waiting on Dishonored. XCOM I was planning on waiting. Then certain people with a "glorified blog" posted WONDERFUL previews and I went to GMG.

So right now I am doing STALKER (replay), Torchlight 2, and XCOM. And I find myself wanting to start another Borderlands 2 character.


Waiting for a discount to pay a reasonable price for games is a fool attitude now?

And the negative reaction to the list brings a smile to my face.

I don't think it is toward the list...

But whatever gets your motor running.

Kadayi
16-10-2012, 02:05 AM
I don't think it is toward the list...

But whatever gets your motor running.

Comprehension isn't his strong point gundato :)

dnf
16-10-2012, 02:24 AM
lol wathever, butthurts must flow

gundato
16-10-2012, 02:47 AM
lol wathever, butthurts must flow

And now we have derogatory homophobic comments...

dnf
16-10-2012, 03:51 AM
And now we have derogatory homophobic comments...
The more you know...

Diesel-
16-10-2012, 07:25 AM
The thing is this game actually made history that other havenot. to be the First Ever sequel that jump into console without bieng ruined. this alone make it classic

Mohorovicic
16-10-2012, 07:56 AM
Pointless TPP mode with time-stopping takedowns, nonsensical XP system, item trading when weapons magically turn into ammo in your inventory, literally click a button ending, wallhacking minimap from the get-go, bad hacking and after all the talk about human revolution in the trailers the whole man vs. enhancements wasn't really shown.

It might have not been ruined because of consoles, but it was pretty ruined.

Kadayi
16-10-2012, 07:56 AM
The thing is this game actually made history that other havenot. to be the First Ever sequel that jump into console without bieng ruined. this alone make it classic

Out of curiosity are you and dnf related in some way?

Grizzly
16-10-2012, 08:15 AM
The thing is this game actually made history that other havenot. to be the First Ever sequel that jump into console without bieng ruined. this alone make it classic

Team Fortress 2 also made history, and it is a sequel that jumps into the console without being "ruined" (although a lot of TFC fans actually disagree (see DNFs post), and the same holds true for Deus Ex).

So, to answer your question: No, it is not the first ever consolized sequel that lived up to it's predeccesor - you are a big fan of one of the earlier examples yourself!


And the negative reaction to the list brings a smile to my face.

Mostly that it makes no sense. Baldur's Gate ruined by multiplatform? It never had a multiplatform installment. Halo a PC franchise? ruined by it's transfer to the multiplatform market? It was (and still is) an XBox exclusive. Etc.

Sketch
16-10-2012, 08:26 AM
Not to defend him, but I think he's referring to the Baldurs Gate Dark Alliance games, and how Halo was originally a Mac/PC game. Of course he's not really correct, the DA games are just spinoffs and ruined nothing, and Halo looked impressive but was not at all nearing completion. It was more of a concept, he's just bending facts to suit him.

QuantaCat
16-10-2012, 08:33 AM
though wasnt neverwinter nights and etc more consolebound than any other RPG that bioware churned out before?

But I think what were all forgetting here is that it isnt about if its on console or PC, its a publisher mindset to move as many units as possible, no matter what, that is ruining the actual game.

Its a fine line to thread between wanting to do well commercially and still keeping a bit of creativity, which is something not a lot of publishers can walk.

Grizzly
16-10-2012, 08:35 AM
Not to defend him, but I think he's referring to the Baldurs Gate Dark Alliance games, and how Halo was originally a Mac/PC game. Of course he's not really correct, the DA games are just spinoffs and ruined nothing, and Halo looked impressive but was not at all nearing completion. It was more of a concept, he's just bending facts to suit him.

The thing is, Baldur's Gate the Dark Alliance were not really sequel's, more like spinoffs, and they were never designed to be on PC, nor made by the original developer. The games only share the Forgotten Realms lore, and have nothing else in common. Therefore, one can not say that the main series was ruined by consoles, as those design decisions never made it back into the PC-based series.

He has picked Fallout as an example, and I think that is actually a reasonably fair target, as Fallout 3 actually is a continuation of Fallout 2 (although I am quite sure that Fallout 3 being radically different from Fallout 2 has much more to do with Bethesda then consoles).

But most of his examples are just plain stupid - he just dropped a whole lot of games in there, hoping that atleast some would be right, which kinda negates any point he would try to make.


though wasnt neverwinter nights and etc more consolebound than any other RPG that bioware churned out before?

NWN was never released on consoles. Most of it's design decisions come from the fact that it should be played as a multiplayer co op game.

Finicky
16-10-2012, 09:14 AM
Aaargh, don't mention Killzone in my presence :(. It's a shame that I can't play that widely lauded game, which happens to be made by fellow Dutch people, because I don't have a PS3 :(. Damn exclusive policies.

Edit: But apperently it is quite awesome.

You aren't missing out on anything...
I have kz2 on ps3 and I've never played anything with more input lag in my life... I believe it has 150ms engine related input latency. Controlling it feels like yelling commands at someone else who in turn tries to manipulate the guns with a puppeteer setup of rubber bands.
Devs tried to pin it on 'realism' or 'weighty feel' but even the community bashed them for it. (if a console community complains about input lag you know it has to be bad).

@ gundato: I'll give you starhawk as single sole exception to the rule (early life game, sony being ambitious as usual, it bombed pretty hard btw and sony's ambition got smacked down)

Mentioning a ps2 game does not make a case for your argument hah, and the rest are just as one track minded as call of duty.
CS:GO is already dead and buried on xbox and ps3 (failed just as hard as condition zero, who've thunk? :D) , and TF2 has a tiny tiny community (and no updates because there is no community left) compared to the PC version.
As always you bring out these hilariously sad retorts without thinking them through, all you do is reinforce my point that the console audience isn't suited for this type of game.
Which in turn means multiplatform games are always adjusted down in varying degrees to better fit the audience.

Not impressed with the 'no u' approach and arguing semantics, gg back to debate class with you little man.

Finicky
16-10-2012, 09:23 AM
And now we have derogatory homophobic comments...
What does this even mean? How is a troll like you allowed to keep posting?

Heliocentric
16-10-2012, 10:08 AM
What does this even mean? How is a troll like you allowed to keep posting?
What... He's the troll?
No man, let me quote events for you.


lol wathever, butthurts must flow

And now we have derogatory homophobic comments...

The more you know...
You really think gundato is the troll?

agentorange
16-10-2012, 10:11 AM
As inane and embarrassing as this thread is, I do have to say that Deus Ex: Human Revolution did a very good job of keeping some of the more complex mechanics of the original game, things like the inventory and multiple hot-keyed augmentations, while some of the "consolized" changes they made actually made the game feel a hell of a lot more natural: things like the one button kill-or-knockout mechanic (because slapping someone on the head with a baton in the original felt fucking stupid), and the switching the third-person in cover mechanic. It was certainly a good example of getting the best of both worlds.

tl;dr to sum it up: there are a lot of shit posters in this thread. Stop embarrassing yourselves and the rest of the PC gaming community.

DaftPunk
16-10-2012, 10:11 AM
I need to agree with KZ games,they're awful. If those games were released on pc they would get 6 at best.

agentorange
16-10-2012, 10:17 AM
I need to agree with KZ games,they're awful. If those games were released on pc they would get 6 at best.

As far as Kill Zone 2 goes, it's the exact same style of game as Half-Life 2, a linear "cinematic" shooter, except Kill Zone 2 has more weapons, that actually feel like guns, and better level design, better enemy AI, etc. It also had pretty great multi-player while it lasted. What exactly makes them awful?

Sketch
16-10-2012, 10:23 AM
Killzone 2 has awful, awful writing. Rico is just the worst character. I hear he's better in 3 though.

Heliocentric
16-10-2012, 10:47 AM
I need to agree with KZ games,they're awful. If those games were released on pc they would get 6 at best.

I've enjoyed plenty of 6's in my time.

Mohorovicic
16-10-2012, 10:48 AM
What does this even mean?

gundato somehow assumed that "butthurt" refers to the act of anal sex.

And apparently anal sex is the mark of a homosexual.

How heterophobic.

Kadayi
16-10-2012, 11:34 AM
How heterophobic.

Oh Mohorovicic you contrarian you.

dnf
16-10-2012, 12:20 PM
Out of curiosity are you and dnf related in some way?

Nope. I dont think Human Revolution is that good. Poorly optimized, no mod support(I have a better experience with the Deus Ex mods than this game), Piss filter, uninspired level design, poor memes (I never asked for this? what a shame), bland acting(it lacks the "so bad its good" fell of the original). Edit: Forgot some obvious ones like bad boss fights, bad graphix, modernitis(dlc preorder),and this may surprise someone but lack of multiplayer too.

As for the Baldurs Gate spin offs, you have to wonder why they developed these games in the first place as opposed to a proper sequel like Black Isle's The Black Hound. As for Fallout, The Brotherhood of Stell, Nough said.

Kadayi
16-10-2012, 12:56 PM
Nope. I dont think Human Revolution is that good. Poorly optimized, no mod support(I have a better experience with the Deus Ex mods than this game), Piss filter, uninspired level design, poor memes (I never asked for this? what a shame), bland acting(it lacks the "so bad its good" fell of the original).

As for the Baldurs Gate spin offs, you have to wonder why they developed these games in the first place as opposed to a proper sequel like Black Isle's The Black Hound. As for Fallout, The Brotherhood of Stell, Nough said.

You should start up a podcast

gundato
16-10-2012, 02:01 PM
You really think gundato is the troll?
Anything else would involve him having to actually read more than what he posts in a thread...

Trust me, don't actually try to apply logic to the people who insist on going from thread to thread to harass me any chance they get (even when there is a much better target, as in this one :p), it is a futile effort. Just ignore them when they do that, as I tend to do. It will derail topics less and encourage actual discussion.



@ gundato: I'll give you starhawk as single sole exception to the rule (early life game, sony being ambitious as usual, it bombed pretty hard btw and sony's ambition got smacked down)

Mentioning a ps2 game does not make a case for your argument hah, and the rest are just as one track minded as call of duty.
CS:GO is already dead and buried on xbox and ps3 (failed just as hard as condition zero, who've thunk? :D) , and TF2 has a tiny tiny community (and no updates because there is no community left) compared to the PC version.
As always you bring out these hilariously sad retorts without thinking them through, all you do is reinforce my point that the console audience isn't suited for this type of game.
Which in turn means multiplatform games are always adjusted down in varying degrees to better fit the audience.

Not impressed with the 'no u' approach and arguing semantics, gg back to debate class with you little man.
Actually, Starhawk came out this year. It DID seem to bomb horribly though since it is free for PS+. :p. I gave it a shot. It has potential, but I just don't like the gunplay (the guns don't "feel" like guns).
The early game you're thinking of Warhawk, which I have no idea on but apparently Starhawk is the spiritual successor. So it was probably similar?

And how does pointing out Tribes was on consoles not make the argument that Tribes is possible on consoles? Tribes has basically been dead for years with Ascend being an attempt to resurrect it (that is having mixed results). And if we extrapolate to current tech: Battlefield 3 supports 24 player multiplayer, which while not one of the huge servers of Tribes, is a hefty game (and I have played many Ascend matches with that many players and had a blast). And it looks like the devs acknowledged that, without vehicles or geomod (and geomod is likely the real bottleneck), 64 players is quite doable. And I think there is a console FPS that DOES do 64 player multiplayer (its a CoD clone, it sucks :p), so "proper" Tribes maps are definitely feasible with the current generation. And we already know the control scheme works since it worked on the PS2 and the 360 and PS3 controllers are basically the same thing. :p
So yeah, that definitively proves the "Consoles can't play games like Tribes or Planetside" to be wrong. Now, if you want to start arguing that PC is superior because of our exclusives, feel free. Just don't pretend that the consoles could never play them. They just didn't prove popular.

And the point isn't necessarily what remained popular. It is that everything is just as possible on each platform (except "classic" RTS on a console and party game on a PC, and I am sure someone will point out that many console games have supported mouse-input and that people used to play worms and scorch all crowded around a keyboard), Don't confuse what the people on the platform "want" with what is possible.
Fighting games and "Music" games are possible on the PC, but they tend to be afterthoughts at best for the publishers (and the majority of gamers :p). Tactical shooters (I believe there were a few pre-Vegas R6s on the consoles, and I the original Ghost Recon was cross-platform) are possible on consoles, but aren't popular there (or here, for that matter).

Its like saying "We haven't had a wizardry/m&m style game on the PC for a while, the modern PC is no longer able to play those games and the 486 is inherently superior!!!"

As for the "no u". Deepest apologies, but I just can't resist throwing a "witty closing shot" back at the person who makes it when said post is completely devoid of wit in the first place. It is just my style. Sort of like how you nitpick, completely miss the point, and then pretend you just definitively disproved the existence of water.


gundato somehow assumed that "butthurt" refers to the act of anal sex.

And apparently anal sex is the mark of a homosexual.

How heterophobic.
Then please, explain the etymology of that term. Please explain how it came into popularity and what its origins and meaning is. I am quite curious how such a term (especially used in the context of the online community which is notoriously fond of homophobic comments) is really not an unveiled way to refer to someone as a homosexual male (and to mock them for it). Please, enlighten me.

dnf
16-10-2012, 02:22 PM
English is not my first language btw, and for all the years in the internet this is the first time i see someone atributed the word butthurt as a pejorative homophobic comment(as opposed to the word faggot). Well, at least you could atribute the context in the meaning of what i said...

Aniway, back to the topic, consoles sucks, etc,etc...

Grizzly
16-10-2012, 02:24 PM
Nope. I dont think Human Revolution is that good. Poorly optimized, no mod support(I have a better experience with the Deus Ex mods than this game), Piss filter, uninspired level design, poor memes (I never asked for this? what a shame), bland acting(it lacks the "so bad its good" fell of the original). Edit: Forgot some obvious ones like bad boss fights, bad graphix, modernitis(dlc preorder),and this may surprise someone but lack of multiplayer too.

Poorly optimized, uninspired level design, poor memes, bad boss fights, bad graphics, and it's awfull multiplayer are all points that can be laid against the original Deus Ex :P.



As for the Baldurs Gate spin offs, you have to wonder why they developed these games in the first place as opposed to a proper sequel like Black Isle's The Black Hound. As for Fallout, The Brotherhood of Stell, Nough said.

Hmm - I am quite certain that the Baldur's gate games were discontinued due to Interplay and license issues - Interplay's console licence was extended, however, whilst the PC one was not (could they choose between either PC or Console DnD license? What a silly system) - You can partly blame Wizards of the Coast for that, but yeah, partly interplay as well. I have not taken "Project cancelled in favor of console version of different game" as a way of ruining pc franchises, but I suppose that in this case it is atleast a bit fair.


English is not my first language btw, and for all the years in the internet this is the first time i see someone atributed the word butthurt as a pejorative homophobic comment(as opposed to the word faggot). Well, at least you could atribute the context in the meaning of what i said...

Bloody hell, has that word been used that much that people forgot the original meaning? Ouch.

QuantaCat
16-10-2012, 03:28 PM
Bloody hell, has that word been used that much that people forgot the original meaning? Ouch.[/COLOR]

No, people just dont care/dont think. thats the difference.

dnf
16-10-2012, 03:51 PM
No, people just dont care/dont think. thats the difference.
Yeah, privileged stuff and all that, but enlight me on this: is the prhase "im gonna kick your ass" a homophibic stuff too,or wathever stuff that involves the human ass?

gundato
16-10-2012, 04:03 PM
Yeah, privileged stuff and all that, but enlight me on this: is the prhase "im gonna kick your ass" a homophibic stuff too,or wathever stuff that involves the human ass?

...
Yes, it is a sign of being privileged to be able to insult somebody without bordering on a hate crime...

And no, saying "I'm gonna kick your ass" is not inherently homophobic. But if you say it on the internet, you definitely sound like an idiot.

QuantaCat
16-10-2012, 05:35 PM
well dnf, maybe I should just rape you. NO WAIT OMG WAS THAT POSSIBLY MISOGYNIC. OR HOMOPHOBIC.

No, its just stupid.

Now back to the (non)matter at hand. Yes, publishers can be annoying, cant they? ah aha ahahah

mickygor
16-10-2012, 06:14 PM
real gamers don't don't give a toss about whether a game requires M&K, a controller or a Joystick, they just get on with playing games

Not to derail from this mud slinging contest, but I just need to point out this hypocrisy. Moans about elitism, makes elitist comment. This imaginary gamer only plays games with adequate mouse and keyboard support.

Smashbox
16-10-2012, 06:20 PM
Rad thread

Tikey
16-10-2012, 06:24 PM
I like videogames!

Discuss.

Grizzly
16-10-2012, 06:26 PM
Not to derail from this mud slinging contest, but I just need to point out this hypocrisy. Moans about elitism, makes elitist comment. This imaginary gamer only plays games with adequate mouse and keyboard support.

This gamer hardly has any money to spend on peripherals :(.

gundato
16-10-2012, 06:41 PM
Not to derail from this mud slinging contest, but I just need to point out this hypocrisy. Moans about elitism, makes elitist comment. This imaginary gamer only plays games with adequate mouse and keyboard support.
I also found that a bit questionable, but I think kad is referring to the debacle with Dark Souls where people were looking for any excuse to bash it and focused on "weak mouse and keyboard".

My personal view, and one I think most people will agree with (if you don't, you aren't most people. So shut it :p) is that it depends on the genre:
Any game SHOULD attempt to provide controls that suit the standard input of that platform. But if the game is clearly meant to be played with a special controller (any flight/mech sim and joysticks, for example) then they are allowed to skimp on the mouse and keyboard. Why should they change the quality of the game for the worse just because people (who may not even be in their target demographic) will have difficulty.

deano2099
16-10-2012, 10:11 PM
Look at natural selection 2, planetside 2 or tribes ascend.
Now look at all of the multiplatform shooters...

All of these games either wouldn't work with a controller (ns2 as marines with a controller would just be SAD, as would spinfusor in tribes), outscale what can be done on the hardware or are too complex for the target audience.

You'll never see a shooter on a console that has you do more than one thing at a time, hence why dota likes/proper rts/team focused complex fps simply don't and never will exist on the console boxes.


That's true, but I don't see one as being inherently better than the other. You'll never play a console FPS that requires the precise aiming you get from a mouse. But then, you'll never play a PC FPS with analogue movement. Different platforms do different things well, and it's fine that some people prefer some stuff to others. Me, I don't have the reaction times or precise motion control for stuff like Tribes and that, and no interest in developing that. So I guess I prefer stuff 'dumbed down'.

DX:HR was fun, as while it lost some depth, other things were deeper. The conversation system is far better, for example. And the story is a lot more coherent. I think that's the key. You shouldn't just take stuff out, because if you take need for precise control out of Tribes then...well what's the point? But building something different and interesting in it's own way is fun.

I'm quite excited about the new dumbed-down XCOM, because I found the original to be punishingly difficult, slow, and horrid to control.

Thing is, it's possible to dumb-down the more finicky, difficult, annoying aspects of a game while not dumbing down the product as a whole. Mass-market appeal does not automatically have to be a bad thing.


bland acting(it lacks the "so bad its good" fell of the original).

I love how the fact that the acting is better is a negative...

dnf
17-10-2012, 01:23 AM
I love how the fact that the acting is better is a negative...

At least i can laugh at the pathetic acting(actually, its a mixed bag there is both awesome and horrible stuff in Deus ex acting), JC one liners and mods such as the malkavian mod. Human Revolution acting is pretty souless in comparison.

Kadayi
17-10-2012, 01:05 PM
Not to derail from this mud slinging contest, but I just need to point out this hypocrisy. Moans about elitism, makes elitist comment. This imaginary gamer only plays games with adequate mouse and keyboard support.

Cutting through the Gordian knot of PC master race BS is hardly elitism, it's just being a rational human being. Still feel free to disagree.


This gamer hardly has any money to spend on peripherals :(.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Microsoft-Xbox-Common-Controller-Windows/dp/B004JU0JSK/ref=sr_1_4?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1350475286&sr=1-4

Less than the cost of a new AAA game, so really no excuse to pull this 'but I'm a poor gamer' speil you've been hawking whenever controller talk comes up tbh (it got real boring and predictable a long time ago).

mickygor
17-10-2012, 06:25 PM
Cutting through the Gordian knot of PC master race BS is hardly elitism, it's just being a rational human being. Still feel free to disagree.

It's not elitism, it's preference. Joypads and me haven't got along since I was like 11. If having big hands excludes me from the realm of Real Gamers then I guess I have the wrong definition of what being a gamer actually is.

Mohorovicic
17-10-2012, 06:27 PM
Well, nazis checked the size and shape of the nose.

We look at size and shape of the hands.

mickygor
17-10-2012, 06:34 PM
What colour's my triangle?

Kadayi
17-10-2012, 07:18 PM
Joypads and me haven't got along since I was like 11. If having big hands excludes me from the realm of Real Gamers then I guess I have the wrong definition of what being a gamer actually is.

Given the demographic the 360 controller was designed for I'm going to take your post with a hefty pinch of salt tbh.

mickygor
17-10-2012, 07:39 PM
Given the demographic the 360 controller was designed for I'm going to take your post with a hefty pinch of salt tbh.

I don't need you to believe me to know that I'm right.

Finicky
17-10-2012, 08:42 PM
That's true, but I don't see one as being inherently better than the other. You'll never play a console FPS that requires the precise aiming you get from a mouse. But then, you'll never play a PC FPS with analogue movement. Different platforms do different things well, and it's fine that some people prefer some stuff to others. Me, I don't have the reaction times or precise motion control for stuff like Tribes and that, and no interest in developing that. So I guess I prefer stuff 'dumbed down'.

DX:HR was fun, as while it lost some depth, other things were deeper. The conversation system is far better, for example. And the story is a lot more coherent. I think that's the key. You shouldn't just take stuff out, because if you take need for precise control out of Tribes then...well what's the point? But building something different and interesting in it's own way is fun.

I'm quite excited about the new dumbed-down XCOM, because I found the original to be punishingly difficult, slow, and horrid to control.

Thing is, it's possible to dumb-down the more finicky, difficult, annoying aspects of a game while not dumbing down the product as a whole. Mass-market appeal does not automatically have to be a bad thing.



I love how the fact that the acting is better is a negative...

I'm not someone who has the perseverance or insane multitasking ability to really play APM intensive rtses (other than which friends on LAN, where it's a blast and in a relaxing atmosphere), but I still appreciate what they have to offer for those who are good at it, and how much those people can get out of it.
It would be a real shame if they completely stopped existing (outside of sc2 they kind of have, but that's not the point here).

If you change an IP or any game with a fanbase to fit a new control scheme/audience that can't/won't accomodate the things that were super rewarding/entertaining/enthralling for the original fanbase than that is a huge shame.
There are thousands of games (literally) being released each year, there can and should always be room for such games.

Complex, difficult or highly rewarding learning curve based games and casual easygoing iterations of them aren't mutually exclusive...
That's kind of the whole point of the 'consolised' argument... Why turn something certain people love into something entirely different, just to feed off the brand name and get a new (and potentially bigger) audience.
They can't start a new IP or dig up a more casual one? It really HAS to replace and supplant the other genre and the other audience? They can't coexist?

That is afterall all us so called elitists keep making noise about : wanting the m/k, mod, community adminned and whatever else multiplatform games are unable to provide due to hardware/input/audience constraints to keep being made.

For some godforsaken reason you always get a bunch of halfwits jumping at your throat telling you that you need to shut up and be grateful for assassin's creed or cod and stop wanting anything else, you crazy elitist bastards!

So yeah, when a sequel gets its mechanics/gameplay/scale/features altered and diminished just to fit on a new platform then it's lamentable. Noone has a grudge against people who like slower or smaller or just different games.
Like buring all the books in the world just to recycle the paper and print comic books on it: WHY. (and then some halfwit says you are elitist and don't like comic books)

I was pretty big on consoles in the psx/ps2 era (loved my pc too, but they were good for different things)... and there are enough genres on those to lament the loss of.
Consoles turned into really shitty really weak completely closed PCs with gimped controls , all that was good about them was thrown under the bus and they inherited everything bad about PCs. Multiplatform games tend to reflect that.

Oh to have 60 fps F-zero exist alongside heavily modded arena shooters again, and everything in between as well.

PS: xcom : enemy unknown inherited a lot of the archaic design and needlessly laborious controls from the original.
Removing the AP and reducing the squad sizes doesn't really make a dent (and at a cost) compared to those for streamlining purposes.
Still a fun and rewarding game though, so you kind of take the jank and laboriousness and uneven learning curve and randomness with it.
If I were to design an xcom game I'd ditch all of the rpg and roguelike bullshit and just try to recreate all of the actual gameplay possibilities they so akwardly introduce over time by adding mission scenarios for each, and sandbox loadouts.
I know a lot of people are into that roguelike part of the game, but the squad tactics gameplay during missions is 80 percent of the game and 95 percent of the reward, so that's how I'd streamline it.

That gives me an idea: instead of making this streamlined xcom a spinoff with its own sub-IP I'd call it 'XCOM 2', kill off team working on the sequel for enemy unknown, change my username to gundato and tell the xcom Enemy unknown fans to stop being elitist angry internet men with misplaced entitlement and misplaced nostalgia for the roguelike and rpg parts of xcom. And how they shouldn't be playing games if they don't like my xcom2.

deano2099
17-10-2012, 09:00 PM
If you change an IP or any game with a fanbase to fit a new control scheme/audience that can't/won't accomodate the things that were super rewarding/entertaining/enthralling for the original fanbase than that is a huge shame.
There are thousands of games (literally) being released each year, there can and should always be room for such games.


As long as there is a market for those games, they'll keep getting made though. The IP seems to be a red herring. Just because an old PC-hardcore IP is remade as a more casual console game, it doesn't mean that we 'lost' the hardcore game. Developers were never sitting around trying to decide which way to go with the next game. It was likely 'more casual game' or 'let the franchise rot'. It might not instinctively feel that way, but that's the reality when you think about it.

Or put another way, those games do keep getting made, with new IPs and such, so we get more than direct remakes and re-treads. The biggest complaint in mainstrem gaming? Excessive sequels and no new IPs!

Kadayi
17-10-2012, 09:12 PM
I don't need you to believe me to know that I'm right.

Photos or BS tbh.

Smashbox
17-10-2012, 09:25 PM
Yes, he's almost certainly lying about having big hands.

Kadayi
17-10-2012, 09:27 PM
Yes, he's almost certainly lying about having big hands.

and the 360s a big controller designed with the NA consumer in mind.

gundato
17-10-2012, 09:41 PM
If memory serves, the original xbox controller was "huge", but the current one is "normal"

I have somewhat large hands and I occasionally feel like the 360 and PS3 controllers are a bit small.

mickygor
18-10-2012, 02:44 AM
Why is it hard to believe that a device designed for the average hand would not be comfortable for outliers? The grip required for a joypad, among other things, causes my hands to cramp within minutes.

Kadayi
18-10-2012, 08:38 AM
Why is it hard to believe that a device designed for the average hand would not be comfortable for outliers? The grip required for a joypad, among other things, causes my hands to cramp within minutes.

Firstly because it's too convenient and I'm a massive skeptic when it comes to people making bold claims of this sort ('well in fact I am a Japanese speaking west African lesbian amputee'). A quick Google search of '360 controller too small' turns up zero hits of people with the same issue. Secondly because you don't actually grip a 360 controller, you rest it on your palms and use thumb and forefinger to do everything If you're purporting that alone causes you hand cramps one has to wonder how you even grasp a knife and fork, let alone use a mouse or keyboard.

Dubbill
18-10-2012, 09:24 AM
I'm gonna need some sort of photo ID along with that photo or I'll be posting up 'shopped' image macros. Can't be too careful!

DarkFenix
18-10-2012, 01:27 PM
Firstly because it's too convenient and I'm a massive skeptic when it comes to people making bold claims of this sort ('well in fact I am a Japanese speaking west African lesbian amputee'). A quick Google search of '360 controller too small' turns up zero hits of people with the same issue. Secondly because you don't actually grip a 360 controller, you rest it on your palms and use thumb and forefinger to do everything If you're purporting that alone causes you hand cramps one has to wonder how you even grasp a knife and fork, let alone use a mouse or keyboard.

I was thinking something along those lines. My hands are rather large (I'm one of those mutant freaks who thought the original Xbox controller was just right), if I attempt to encompass the 360 controller in a death grip it seems too small. If on the other hand I stop being a monumental 'tard and hold it gently in such a fashion that my fingers do such strange things as rest on the buttons/sticks, it's fine. And I find the cramps claim rather difficult to believe, you have to contort your hand more to hold a pen (something that, given how little practice I get, does actually hurt my hand after a couple of hours) than a typical gamepad; so life must be pretty difficult for you, my sympathies.

groovychainsaw
18-10-2012, 02:08 PM
I also liked the original xbox controller, felt pretty comfortable to me. The 360 one is small for me, but only gives me an issue if I'm using the triggers for an extended period of time (racing games, usually), then the trigger fingers start to ache as I'm curling them a long way (the broader original pad had them in a more comfortable position). I wouldn't say it's generally uncomfortable, but a larger pad would almost certainly eliminate any issues I'd have with it. Other than the size and the dpad (not commonly used these days, so not really an issue), the design is still probably my favourite pad design in the long history of gamepads.

PC games occasionally suffer from not giving you easy access to 12 keys whilst moving your character (to clarify, you have extra keys on a PC(!), but using wasd and the mouse and pressing other keys simultaneously is not always intuitive/easy for non-pianists). Obviously, FPS games benefit from mouse targeting, and strategy games massively benefit from the mouse, but many other genres can/should use a pad (or more specialised controller, but a pad is usually a good compromise for most other genres).

gundato
18-10-2012, 02:24 PM
Yeah. I once read an argument that we should all be using ESDF since it provides access to far more keys, but WASD is standard and tweaking the controls for any game that would use said keys is too much of a hassle.

Mohorovicic
18-10-2012, 02:43 PM
but WASD is standard and tweaking the controls for any game that would use said keys is too much of a hassle.

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/apocalypse-brando2.jpg

Yes. Going... going into options menu. And then changing. Changing move forward, move back, strafe left, strafe right. And then the use, flashlight, grenades, special actions. The time... the time it would take to do that. The time. The horror.

QuantaCat
18-10-2012, 04:51 PM
http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/apocalypse-brando2.jpg

Yes. Going... going into options menu. And then changing. Changing move forward, move back, strafe left, strafe right. And then the use, flashlight, grenades, special actions. The time... the time it would take to do that. The time. The horror.

Well that was unnecessary. Atleast he was being honest.

I am not a fan of controllers on the PC. However, I like XCOM, with my mouse and keyboard. My console games I play with controllers, yes, the few that I have, and they work well like that.

Internet
18-10-2012, 04:53 PM
real gamers don't don't give a toss about whether a game requires M&K, a controller or a Joystick, they just get on with playing games.

I hate, hate, hate (the italics are for extra emphasis) this sentiment. For one thing, the phrase "real gamers" is silly, because it implies that there's homogeneous group out there that feels the same way about everything, and people who disagree are "fake". For another thing, dual-analog sticks are a bad design:

Your hands are right next to each to each other.

Your thumbs use the same physical movements for completely different types of actions.

The buttons you have are limited, and frequently you have to move off the movement/vision key to use one of the non-trigger keys. For some games this is fine, but it also leads to nonsense like contextual button use.

Thumbsticks are fundamentally inaccurate or slow for certain types of functions, like drawing on screen. or moving a cursor.

It's not that I think mouse and keyboard is the best solution, I don't. Joysticks/analogs are much better at controlling 3-dimensional (and a lot of 2 dimensional) movement than keyboards. I personally think the wiimote+nunchuck design has the potential to be best game controller yet (just needs a bit more accuracy and less random slides to the side of the screen). But it's callous to pretend the two are equivalent, and people should just suck it up and use of a non-standard, non-user friendly device with serious flaws and drawbacks.

Also, $40 is not a small amount of money if you primarily buy from dd sales.

Mohorovicic
18-10-2012, 04:54 PM
Well that was unnecessary. Atleast he was being honest.

If the first thing you do after launching a game isn't going to options and setting up graphics, audio and controls to your liking I might as well ask what are you doing on this site.

QuantaCat
18-10-2012, 05:25 PM
If the first thing you do after launching a game isn't going to options and setting up graphics, audio and controls to your liking I might as well ask what are you doing on this site.

Yup, elitist and stuck up.

Smashbox
18-10-2012, 05:27 PM
Nuke this thread from orbit, plz

DarkFenix
18-10-2012, 05:37 PM
Nuke this thread from orbit, plz

It's the only way to be sure?

Kadayi
18-10-2012, 06:27 PM
I hate, hate, hate (the italics are for extra emphasis) this sentiment. For one thing, the phrase "real gamers" is silly, because it implies that there's homogeneous group out there that feels the same way about everything, and people who disagree are "fake".

I'd say the vast majority of gamers don't give a shit about control schemes tbh, vs simply wanting to play games (they sure as shit don't boycott/eschew titles over them). I find it pretty amusing that somehow stating a truth (that most people likely don't care about the granularity) is considered elitist though. Also I'm not saying people are 'fake' I'm just saying that their issues are.... trivial. Be more offended though.


Also, $40 is not a small amount of money if you primarily buy from dd sales.

I'm sorry but whom exactly are you trying to convince here?

dnf
18-10-2012, 11:53 PM
This thread is boring. Time to make another list i guess...

Finicky
20-10-2012, 04:09 AM
RE: on Starhawk, gundato's proof that there is an audience and possibility for console games (and therefor by extension multiplatform games) to be a bit more in depth/multitasking/teambased games:
http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/10/17/3518868/starhawk-developer-lightbox-interactive-hit-with-layoffs-moving-away

Lol, WOOPS, seems like this stuff doesn't sell to the non-pc gamer afterall.

RobF
20-10-2012, 08:46 AM
Yes, obviously, it's the non-pc gamer thing and not anything else. Obviously it's that.

Christ.

Grizzly
20-10-2012, 09:44 AM
Less than the cost of a new AAA game, so really no excuse to pull this 'but I'm a poor gamer' speil you've been hawking whenever controller talk comes up tbh (it got real boring and predictable a long time ago).

I don't buy new AAA games - I am a university student. My money goes to my study. I don't see how "I prefer to spend my money on something else rather then buying another piece of PC hardware" gets such a heavy response from you. I simply stated why I prefer KBM (it's cheaper). I also do not remember bringing this point up earlier.


and the 360s a big controller designed with the NA consumer in mind.

Average NA customers are actually quite small (1,70ish). People in different countries, as well as people who just happen to be tall in general, are just going to have problems. As with every statistic, there will always be outliers, as well as populations that have different means altogether. Again, I do not see how this get such a hefty response from you.

Kadayi
20-10-2012, 10:37 AM
I am a university student. My money goes to my study.

Yes of course it does. I'm fairly sure a good percentage of RPS readers have been or are university students, so we all have a good idea as to how much money gets spent on where and on what (I guess you never bought BF3, DAII & Metro 2033 etc, etc did you?).


Average NA customers are actually quite small (1,70ish). People in different countries, as well as people who just happen to be tall in general, are just going to have problems. As with every statistic, there will always be outliers, as well as populations that have different means altogether. Again, I do not see how this get such a hefty response from you.

Guess you missed the whole bit about how you don't grip the 360 controller unlike say a joypad from the 90s (ergonomics.. who'd of thunk it)

Finicky
20-10-2012, 11:17 AM
Yes, obviously, it's the non-pc gamer thing and not anything else. Obviously it's that.

Christ.

He managed to name ONE game from this generation, and it bombed hard. Comprehensive reading fella.

RobF
20-10-2012, 11:25 AM
And your point is what? It still didn't bomb hard because it wasn't on a PC.

Grizzly
20-10-2012, 11:34 AM
Yes of course it does. I'm fairly sure a good percentage of RPS readers have been or are university students, so we all have a good idea as to how much money gets spent on where and on what (I guess you never bought BF3, DAII & Metro 2033 etc, etc did you?).

Well, I did buy BF3 and Metro at discounts (keyword). Simply put, I don't think it is worth the investment, whilst you give the vibe that one should buy the controller (you put it as if there is no excuse for not having it).




Guess you missed the whole bit about how you don't grip the 360 controller unlike say a joypad from the 90s (ergonomics.. who'd of thunk it)

I am actually adressing that I find it weird that you disbelief the fact that someone has big hands (up to the point that you want him to show a bloody picture). I disaprove of your strict world view and the shouting down of everyone who does not fit in it.

Kadayi
20-10-2012, 12:08 PM
you put it as if there is no excuse for not having it

No I just found your excuse BS. For a man whose apparently so cash strapped that a 360 controller is somehow an inconceivable expense you sure do have a lot of games: -

http://steamcommunity.com/id/LoneGrizzly/games?tab=all

Of course now you've flip flopped that it's because you don't feel like getting one. So clearly money isn't really the problem after all (you certainly didn't buy DX:HR at discount given the timeline of your achievements). So why imply it was in first place? Shameless.


I am actually adressing that I find it weird that you disbelief the fact that someone has big hands (up to the point that you want him to show a bloody picture). I disaprove of your strict world view and the shouting down of everyone who does not fit in it.

I'm not the only one in this thread who questioned it tbh. The guy said his hand cramped gripping the controller, but the reality is you don't grip the controller.

LTK
20-10-2012, 12:44 PM
That's not a lot of games, especially if Grizzly is like me and bought many of those while he still had money to spend, either his or his parents'. Everyone? Raise your hand if you have more than 80 games on Steam. *raises hand*

However you try to justify that 25 is not a lot of money, it's still four times the price of my average game purchase. Four times what I paid for Metro 2033, to take your example. So, no, it's not something I can afford.

peschiNL
20-10-2012, 01:48 PM
buying an controller for 1 (discounted) game is too much. If you buy lets say the deus ex bundle for 7 euro's, then a 25 euro controller makes it all of a sudden a expensive buy and way above the impulse buy threshold.

Grizzly
20-10-2012, 01:48 PM
Bedankt, landgenoten! You guys pretty much nailed it.

As for Human Revolution, it's called a GIFT. I ocasionally get those. The same with Shogun 2.

Sketch
20-10-2012, 01:57 PM
This is the most ridiculous discussion. I mean come on.

Grizzly
20-10-2012, 02:02 PM
This is the most ridiculous discussion. I mean come on.

I actually honestly agree. I don't really understand why I suddenly feel the desire to justify my spendings, but I do feel rather attacked here, and those self defence reflexes appear to have kicked in.

I think we should lock the thread.

gundato
20-10-2012, 03:09 PM
He managed to name ONE game from this generation, and it bombed hard. Comprehensive reading fella.


Actually, I listed pretty much every popular PC multiplayer FPS right now (since they are all cross platform :p)

Starhawk was listed in response to the argument that consoles can't have games with base building

In addition, I listed Dust 5144124141 (whatever it is called :p) which looks like it has the whole "RTS with humans as your units" that was popular a few years back.

My point is not about what is popular on what platform (since that opens a can of worms since a lot of genres "true PC gamers" love are actually MUCH more popular on the consoles). My point is that each platform is just as capable of playing the same games with very few exceptions (basically "classic" RTSes and "music" games, even though Starcraf64 was apparently pretty good and there are a few "music" games for the PC too).

But please, continue to just focus on one small detail, ignore the context, and pretend you are literate. Also, telling people "Comprehensive reading fella" is definitely deliciously ironic and ballsy. My hat off to you.

Kadayi
20-10-2012, 03:20 PM
As for Human Revolution, it's called a GIFT. I ocasionally get those. The same with Shogun 2.

How ... convenient.

SirDavies
20-10-2012, 03:41 PM
who the fuck cares.

Gorzan
20-10-2012, 04:34 PM
How ... convenient.
Just because no one loves you enough to gift you an expensive game doesn't mean someone doesn't love grizzly enough, you know?

Kadayi
20-10-2012, 04:51 PM
Just because no one loves you enough to gift you an expensive game doesn't mean someone doesn't love grizzly enough, you know?

*chortles*

Grizzly
20-10-2012, 05:25 PM
Just because no one loves you enough to gift you an expensive game doesn't mean someone doesn't love grizzly enough, you know?

I geuss it is all the fur.

Diesel-
20-10-2012, 07:54 PM
so lets back on topic. i cant think of any other game that jump into console and not ruined.

beside hitman 2 and its because first one was crap...

Sketch
20-10-2012, 08:30 PM
Crimson Skieeeeees.

Alex Bakke
20-10-2012, 11:35 PM
I like videogames

LTK
21-10-2012, 12:28 AM
so lets back on topic.
Let's not.

What do you guys think of the skill system in the original Deus Ex? In HR, they simply merged it into the augmentations system, but the original completely segregated skills from augs. On the one hand, I kind of like that you suck at everything at the start and only get better by advancing, but on the other there's always an avenue for exploitation when some playstyles give more experience than others. Like hacking absolutely everything.

I remember discovering a bug in the original where I kept receiving end-of-mission experience from Savage because I had no room in my inventory for the aug canister he wanted to give me. Kept repeating the dialog, kept receiving experience. I wonder if they ever fixed that.

postinternetsyndrome
21-10-2012, 12:51 AM
The skills and "choose one of two"-system for augs in the original meant you worked more towards a build, and exploring to find those canisters was really important and really rewarding. I remember when I found Walton Simon's secret stash in the surface portion of Area 51, years after I played the game the first time. I was blown away. (Likewise, when you get to that room with 4 - FOUR! - aug canisters at Versalife, after previously getting them very seldom, it really reinforces the idea that nanoaugs are coming from Versalife and that they've got loads of the things. Gameplay mechanics reinforcing theme and story: Thumbs up! The abstract connection between XP and Praxis in DXHR makes this sort of thing less possible.) In DXHR you can just get - almost - everything, you just choose the order, which diminishes replayability a bit.

The hacking problem in DXHR could be easily fixed if you just got the exact same XP bonus from using found passwords. That would also maintain the sanity of many players...

Someone also pointed out once that they really shouldn't have stores that blindly buy everything you bring them. It makes you fight the inventory system by picking up guns and selling them separately since you get more money that way. In the original the opportunities for buying and selling stuff was severely limited, making you mostly just drop stuff you didn't need. Which is really for the better.

Overall, I think DXHR suffers a bit from over-streamlining. It definitely makes the game a smoother and more comfortable experience than DX, but robs it of some potential depth. In the end though, I liked it, and consider it a worthy sequel, but it is a lesser game in many ways.

dnf
21-10-2012, 04:17 AM
From my experience with the so called "immersive sims" -Deus Ex, Stalker trilogy, Thief 1\2, Vampire:bloodlines, The Nameless mod, 2027, E.Y.E and Human Revolution- i said that Human Revolution is the most lacking in respect to quality. At least if you dont consider Far Cry 2 a immersive sim, them FC2 is the worst.

postinternetsyndrome
21-10-2012, 10:07 AM
You've played 2027? I downloaded it at some point ages ago but never installed it. Is it any good?

DaftPunk
21-10-2012, 10:42 AM
This thread should be closed.

Kadayi
21-10-2012, 11:05 AM
From my experience with the so called "immersive sims" -Deus Ex, Stalker trilogy, Thief 1\2, Vampire:bloodlines, The Nameless mod, 2027, E.Y.E and Human Revolution- i said that Human Revolution is the most lacking in respect to quality. At least if you dont consider Far Cry 2 a immersive sim, them FC2 is the worst.

Well what do you define as quality exactly? (a nebulous word if ever there was one). The main problem most of these games suffer from is a paucity of AI inhabitants/social density/activity. Generally the narratives are geared towards the notion of a lack of people or the fixed limits of their environments accordingly. None of them hold up to any measure of reality when push comes to shove. It's not likely we are going to see any advances in that arena until the next generation of consoles come on line and development studios are going to be able to really leverage multiple cores and a lot more system RAM.

QuantaCat
21-10-2012, 11:16 AM
Also, who the hell called Hitman 1 "so horrible"?!

And yes, you cannot discuss "quality" unless you discuss "taste". I guess some mechanical features can be lessened, but I dont think they changed that much gameplay to fit a "console players state of mind" more than a PC gamer.

I think the creators of such games already subscribed to this "state of mind", because they enjoy it too. If there is even a difference.

(I guess you pick up a console game for different reasons than a PC game; though recently, thats all become quite fuzzy in boundaries)

gundato
21-10-2012, 03:30 PM
I'm sorry, but ANYONE who thinks EYE has higher "quality" than just about any mainstream shooter in the past decade is full of crap in my eyes.

EYE is a wonderful game and is very fun, but it is definitely a "B-Movie" as it were.

QuantaCat
21-10-2012, 03:36 PM
I'm sorry, but ANYONE who thinks EYE has higher "quality" than just about any mainstream shooter in the past decade is full of crap in my eyes.

EYE is a wonderful game and is very fun, but it is definitely a "B-Movie" as it were.

I think the word whoever said that is looking for is "style" as opposed to "production value"

LTK
21-10-2012, 03:55 PM
The skills and "choose one of two"-system for augs in the original meant you worked more towards a build, and exploring to find those canisters was really important and really rewarding. I remember when I found Walton Simon's secret stash in the surface portion of Area 51, years after I played the game the first time. I was blown away. (Likewise, when you get to that room with 4 - FOUR! - aug canisters at Versalife, after previously getting them very seldom, it really reinforces the idea that nanoaugs are coming from Versalife and that they've got loads of the things. Gameplay mechanics reinforcing theme and story: Thumbs up! The abstract connection between XP and Praxis in DXHR makes this sort of thing less possible.) In DXHR you can just get - almost - everything, you just choose the order, which diminishes replayability a bit.
That's true, but the nano-aug method wouldn't work in HR, because all of the augmentations are mechanical and require surgery. I imagine it was quite hard for the devs to reconcile this with the same progression as you get in Deus Ex. Even so, I'm not quite sure I would have merged it with the XP system. It would have been kind of cool if you could just walk into the LIMB clinic and buy a pair of new arms, since they're purely synthetical anyway. In fact, why shouldn't that have been mandatory? If you get into a lot of fights, you might get shot in the arm once or twice, and I don't know if they're made of self-healing material. In place of Deus Ex's head/torso/limb system, you might have to get repairs or replacements for your robo-parts once in a while.


I'm sorry, but ANYONE who thinks EYE has higher "quality" than just about any mainstream shooter in the past decade is full of crap in my eyes.

EYE is a wonderful game and is very fun, but it is definitely a "B-Movie" as it were.
EYE? Oh, I missed that one in the list. Yes, EYE's ambition was highly admirable, and it's very impressive that they managed to craft a functional game out of it, but it is not a quality game by any definition of the word.

dnf
21-10-2012, 06:23 PM
I think the word whoever said that is looking for is "style" as opposed to "production value"

Pretty much. Style and ambition is two things that DX:HR lacks. It pains me to see amateurs more ambitious than professionals with lots of money.

QuantaCat
21-10-2012, 06:51 PM
Pretty much. Style and ambition is two things that DX:HR lacks. It pains me to see amateurs more ambitious than professionals with lots of money.

definitely not got that feeling. I liked the style of DXHR, its maybe a bit.. borrowed from several sources, but I think it managed ok.

I also enjoyed most of the cutscenes/the trailer. So there definitely was a style, if it was innovative, thats another question.

Also, the production values were quite high, to say the least. And they even went out of their way to provide options for the people that didnt want their hands held by the augmentation system.

LTK
21-10-2012, 07:44 PM
Pretty much. Style and ambition is two things that DX:HR lacks. It pains me to see amateurs more ambitious than professionals with lots of money.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Trying to make a Deus Ex game is pretty ambitious in and of itself, and I daresay it's impossible to set out to make a game, and then have it fulfill all of your ambitions when it's done. I think you have unrealistic standards to what a professional studio is able to produce. EYE was ambitious as hell, but it would never have made it out Square Enix's door. Compared to making a sequel to Borderlands, HR set its sights very high.

I don't understand what you mean with style either. You can't very well say that the game did not have a clearly defined aesthetic, and you can't deny that it's a tight, polished experience. If you mean that it lacks depth, then I'd agree, but then just say it lacks depth.

postinternetsyndrome
21-10-2012, 08:37 PM
That's true, but the nano-aug method wouldn't work in HR, because all of the augmentations are mechanical and require surgery. I imagine it was quite hard for the devs to reconcile this with the same progression as you get in Deus Ex. Even so, I'm not quite sure I would have merged it with the XP system. It would have been kind of cool if you could just walk into the LIMB clinic and buy a pair of new arms, since they're purely synthetical anyway. In fact, why shouldn't that have been mandatory? If you get into a lot of fights, you might get shot in the arm once or twice, and I don't know if they're made of self-healing material. In place of Deus Ex's head/torso/limb system, you might have to get repairs or replacements for your robo-parts once in a while.

Quite true, it was just an example of how the mechanics reinforced the themes of the game in that particular case. Such a connection in DXHR would definitely have to take another form, like what you mention with the repairs or similar. Pairing the regenerating health with a non-regenerating "durability" type stat for various augs could be interesting, but also risks becoming just a money sink with no meaningful choices attached.

Outright Villainy
23-10-2012, 04:01 PM
Man people sure are getting contrary all up in this thread. Hey you know what was fun? Throwing vending machines at people.
That's something we can all agree on, right?

DaftPunk
23-10-2012, 05:39 PM
People on this boards take games waaaay to serious :D

postinternetsyndrome
23-10-2012, 05:54 PM
People on this boards take games waaaay to serious :DYeah, it's like this is a discussion forum for games or something.

DaftPunk
23-10-2012, 06:06 PM
yeah, it's like this is a discussion forum for games or something.


mindblown! :d

Diesel-
23-10-2012, 06:33 PM
People on this boards take games waaaay to serious :D

i like serious game and Deus Ex is serious game

LTK
23-10-2012, 06:39 PM
From any other user, literally anyone but Diesel, that would have come across as taking the piss.

Sorry dude, but your atrocious grammar makes it very hard to take you seriously.

gundato
23-10-2012, 06:42 PM
Serious Sam is the most serious game ever made.