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renhoelder
27-10-2012, 12:25 PM
So, Win 8 is officially out now. How many of you have upgraded? The price seems pretty reasonable for a new OP system, whether you dig the new UI (which one can turn off) that seems to be very much tablet orientated is another question.

I'm on a desktop, with an LCD as monitor, so to me navigating the tiles on mouse and keyboard seems awkward, granted I have only tinkered with in on Virtualbox so the experience may be a little laggy, seemed so at-least. Maybe getting one of those logitech touchpads would improve the experience...who knows.

So, what are your thoughts on this?

Also, if anyone has a promocode to drop the price from 29.99€ to 14.99€ I'd be very appreciative.

squirrel
27-10-2012, 12:47 PM
To me it really depends on driver support and software compatibility, so I really cannot decide at the moment. Maybe I would follow the tradition wisdom: wait for SP1.

As I know, the drastic change of interface is Windows 8 no longer has the infamous "Start Up" button. For this, I guess I should have no problem since I am very comfortable with my antique Power PC iMac 5 run by Mac OS X 10.3

bad guy
27-10-2012, 12:50 PM
I like the new UI (not the metro part though).
Now after they got rid of stupid aero, it has a nice zen look to it.
For example the task manager:
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/183aq4zxrmsf0jpg/original.jpg
I haven't looked too much into win8 yet though, and I will be waiting till it matures a bit.

renhoelder
27-10-2012, 01:30 PM
Damn, I must admit that I wasn't that impressed with the Metro or whatever the UI is called, for a desktop at-least. I do think this would work well for a touchscreen device. But 14.99€ or even 29.99€ is still a pretty good deal for a new OP system.

My Win 7 experience has been pretty good, if i disregard my blue period where I had about a dozen or so BSODs in about two days, which, granted might have been caused by hardware, but still. I had far fewer crashes/BSODs on XP and Vista combined so I'm not too bothered about bugs.

squirrel
27-10-2012, 02:17 PM
I believe that All-in-One PC will see light of greater sales. All-in-One may not be ideal for those demanding for high specs since they are generally not good at hardware cooling. But one selling point is that more and more of them have touch screens, and they perfectly fit in this new UI.

And touchscreen for PC tower on the other hand is way too expensive for me.

renhoelder
27-10-2012, 03:06 PM
Anyway, I caved and got me Win 8 Pro for ~15€, so I'll see how that goes. And if I can't deal with the "innovation" there's always the option to downgrade.

soldant
27-10-2012, 03:27 PM
I've been running it since August when it was released to Technet subscribers. I don't like Metro on a desktop, but I barely ever see it. 90% of the time I'm on the Desktop, which functions just like it did in Windows 7. On the plus side, Windows 8 is faster. Compatibility is much the same as Windows 7... and now tjp will come in here complaining about how his P4 and AC97 audio chip isn't supported. Win8 did drop some legacy support, it's true, but in terms of getting your apps and games to run you're unlikely to run into any issues. So far the only big issue for me is that some apps can't launch a web browser when you click a link - for example trying to access the forum for a game from Steam results in absolutely nothing happening. I don't know why. Game performance should be close to Win7 - maybe slightly less in benchmarks but nothing you'd realistically notice. That's probably due to slightly immature GPU drivers.

Metro is basically a giant Start menu. You could unpin all the Metro apps and just populate it like a big Start menu if you want. Alternatively, just do what you probably do with the current Start menu: open it up, type in what you want, and smash Enter. Functionally it's the same thing. The most frustrating thing is the Charms gesture, but you can use WinKey+C to display them instead.

No doubt some people won't be able to tolerate Metro, but MS will keep Metro. It won't go away. Better get used to it, or move to OS X/Linux. Also to head off any arguments - WinRT might be Microsoft's walled garden, but the desktop is not. There are no arbitrary restrictions on x86 apps and there never will be. There is no threat to Gabe's Walled Garden-Empire of Gaming. Please don't listen to FUD.


To me it really depends on driver support and software compatibility, so I really cannot decide at the moment. Maybe I would follow the tradition wisdom: wait for SP1.
Yeah, that idea was valid for XP and Vista, but you were missing out if you waited for Win7 SP1. The bugs are largely with WinRT, not the desktop. Waiting for SP1 is unlikely to mean much, just as it didn't mean much for Win7. With the more rapid release cycle it's unlikely that service packs will be the same as they have been since XP, so the XP/Vista wisdom of "wait till SP1" is less applicable here.

mashakos
27-10-2012, 04:11 PM
Have absolutely no interest in a new Windows iteration that offers nothing new for the home theater crowd. Where the hell is the 10 foot interface, practical DPI scaling and remote control integration we were teased with? Tablet controls clusterfuck in a desktop OS? Nothankyou.jpg

renhoelder
27-10-2012, 08:48 PM
Actually, the Metro thing isn't all that bad. It's ok for quick overview of mail, news and feeds. You can add your gmail accounts to the mail program and calendar and the tiles give a pretty good glimpse of what is going on. Switching between the desktop and Metro is quick and smooth.

Can't say if I'm going to use it a month from now though, maybe the novelty will fade.

Mohorovicic
27-10-2012, 09:47 PM
So let me get this straight. I pay $60 and get something that is just like the OS I already have, except more cumbersome to navigate?

mashakos
27-10-2012, 10:22 PM
So let me get this straight. I pay $60 and get something that is just like the OS I already have, except more cumbersome to navigate?

yup. You might get a thank you note for your donation to Microsoft Corp. of $60.

renhoelder
27-10-2012, 10:34 PM
Why would you pay 60$? Don't talk out of your ass.You can get the upgrade if you rock Win 7 right now for 29€ or 39$, plus, you can easily get a promo coupon that'll knock the price down to 14.99$. You pay 60$ if you want the packaged DVD version, but you can just as easily burn the downloadable version yourself, the goddamn Upgrade Assistant will give you the option to make to burn a dvd or install with a USB drive.

mashakos
28-10-2012, 01:36 AM
Why would you pay 60$? Don't talk out of your ass.You can get the upgrade if you rock Win 7 right now for 29€ or 39$, plus, you can easily get a promo coupon that'll knock the price down to 14.99$. You pay 60$ if you want the packaged DVD version, but you can just as easily burn the downloadable version yourself, the goddamn Upgrade Assistant will give you the option to make to burn a dvd or install with a USB drive.

great! A $39 donation to Microsoft then.

EDIT: On a more serious note, why are you all excited about Windows 8? Aside from some clever standby modes there is nothing new in the OS and several things that could have been improved upon or introduced since Vista have not been touched:
DPI scaling which was basically left in a half finished state for the past 6 years has not changed.
No control panel features for SSD meaning you still need to install a third party application for things like manual trim and general SSD related optimisation.
No native support for current open source media formats like mkv, FLAC etc. which is puzzling since divx, xvid and mp4 have been supported since Vista.
Microsoft's Bluetooth stack has not been updated to add support for HID Proxy mode (if the bluetooth hardware supports it). Translation: you can't use a bluetooth keyboard in bios after restarting windows, or even logging into windows! This stuff was sorted on Linux and OSX in the early 2000's.
No native multi-seat (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9hc9p8boPc) capabilities. What a missed opportunity!
For some reason, Microsoft did not copy some of the innovative features found in Linux and OSX this time around such as transitioning from the registry system to the Home directory structure, Time Machine, integrated (and free) cloud support or new desktop composition capabilities like Compiz Fusion.
No new audio architecture updates that for example could add support for dolby digital live or dts connect. To get either of these on a PC you either have to be lucky enough to have a motherboard with the capability built into the driver (licensed) or purchase a $250+ soundcard.
Adding bilinear filtering to the Magnifier. I mean, seriously, pixellated Magnifier utility in 2012?
No built-in video desktop backgrounds. This is important if your PC is hooked up to an HDTV and is left on for long periods.
A huge one: no native support for Xbox live or XBLA! Why miss this opportunity?

There are literally 1000's of ways they could have made this an amazing OS release for desktop users and especially hardcore power users / gamers, yet they went with tablet UI and "social media" integration. Gah!

I'm also curious to see how you guys manage using W8 when every corner and edge of the screen seems to trigger something. Good luck and godspeed multi-monitor users!

soldant
28-10-2012, 01:43 AM
Have absolutely no interest in a new Windows iteration that offers nothing new for the home theater crowd.
Because Microsoft are in the business of building a multipurpose OS and not a media PC maybe?


DPI scaling which was basically left in a half finished state for the past 6 years has not changed.
This, on the other hand, is true. Scaling is now properly enforced on Metro but it's in an arbitrary "make things bigger" setting. The desktop scaling is still horribly broken. But I think part of that is that developers basically ignore Microsoft's standards whenever it suits them, so not all apps properly support scaling. Apple's scaling on their retina Macbook Pro line is a different kettle of fish, but Apple uses some fairly GPU-heavy trickery or demands developer support. Still MS needs to do something about this.


No control panel features for SSD meaning you still need to install a third party application for things like trim and general SSD related optimisation.
Win8 detects SSDs and handles this automatically. It can also natively TRIM SSD raid0 arrays too. The old Defrag tool is now "Optimise Drives" which handles this for you. Or you can use the command prompt like before.


No native support for current open source media formats like mkv, FLAC etc. which is puzzling since divx, xvid and mp4 have been supported since Vista.
Fair point, but MS have never been good at supporting codecs out of the box.


No native multi-seat (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9hc9p8boPc) capabilities. What a missed opportunity!
Really, so what? It's not their job to cater for everything.


For some reason, Microsoft did not copy some of the innovative features found in Linux and OSX this time around such as transitioning from the registry system to the Home directory structure, Time Machine, integrated (and free) cloud support or new desktop composition capabilities like Compiz Fusion.
File History is functionally identical to Time Machine... which is essentially the old shadow copy service dressed up in a new interface. It's been renamed as File Hx in Win8 and actually works properly for a change, replacing the old backup service. The issue with trying to move to a Home directory is that the Registry has been in place since Forever, and I can't imagine it'd be easy to transition all that legacy software across. And any time that MS break legacy support people go apeshit about it. Also plenty of devs just ignore Microsoft's standards or screw them up - like how the My Documents folder is practically useless these days because devs just shove everything into there without rhyme or reason.

As for cloud support - Metro supports SkyDrive out of the box, which is free. They probably didn't include it on the desktop for fear of anti-trust lawsuits from Dropbox or Google.


No built-in video desktop backgrounds. This is important if your PC is hooked up to an HDTV and is left on for long periods.
So basically because this isn't a HTPC OS you're dismissing it? I don't think you understand the point of Windows 8... or really Windows in general.


I'm also curious to see how you guys manage using W8 when every corner and edge of the screen seems to trigger something. Good luck and godspeed multi-monitor users!
I use multiple monitors with it and the hot corners aren't an issue. The extreme corners are 'sticky' to allow you to activate the gestures on the primary monitor. Also Win8 natively supports having the taskbar duplicated across two monitors.



Really, do you even know much about Win8 besides "It's got a new UI therefore I don't like it"? Metro isn't good on desktops, but the majority of your complaints are either outright incorrect or boil down to "It's not a media-PC OS" which shouldn't be a criticism.

mashakos
28-10-2012, 02:07 AM
Win8 detects SSDs and handles this automatically. It can also natively TRIM SSD raid0 arrays too. The old Defrag tool is now "Optimise Drives" which handles this for you. Or you can use the command prompt like before.
Edited to clarify: I meant manual trim. Indexing, defragmentation and "turbo cache" were designed for HDDs and negatively impact SSD performance. No added value in W8 for the end user to make their lives easier in this regard.


Really, so what? It's not their job to cater for everything.
So there's nothing new with the operating system. I mentioned this more as a potential feature and not a must have. Really, ANY new compelling feature would have been nice.


File History is functionally identical to Time Machine...
There's more to time machine in the latest iteration of OSX than delta file backups. Check out a keynote or two.


The issue with trying to move to a Home directory is that the Registry has been in place since Forever, and I can't imagine it'd be easy to transition all that legacy software across. And any time that MS break legacy support people go apeshit about it.
Devs can't break away from a Home folder structure if implemented properly, in the same way that devs can't create their own independent registry sytem in windows right now.
Microsoft did a clean break when they introduced the Windows Desktop Manager in Vista. Everyone went ape shit and it broke a lot of apps, some people are still on XP because of it - but WDM was sorely needed to turn Windows into a modern OS. Just having a double buffered desktop environment was a huge feature that designers and media editors have been clamouring for since 2001. Some changes, as difficult as they are, need to be made to move the platform forward. Instead of doing a major change that would in thre long run benefit all Windows users, Microsoft went with a tablet UI.


So basically because this isn't a HTPC OS you're dismissing it? I don't think you understand the point of Windows 8... or really Windows in general.
This feature existed in Vista, you can bring it back in Windows 7 wit ha utility. Having a moving background reduces burn-in on monitors and TVs, not sure why you term this an HTPC feature.


Really, do you even know much about Win8 besides "It's got a new UI therefore I don't like it"? Metro isn't good on desktops, but the majority of your complaints are either outright incorrect or boil down to "It's not a media-PC OS" which shouldn't be a criticism.
I was curious to know why you are excited about Windows 8. You haven't enlightened me so far.


I use multiple monitors with it and the hot corners aren't an issue. The extreme corners are 'sticky' to allow you to activate the gestures on the primary monitor. Also Win8 natively supports having the taskbar duplicated across two monitors.
So the annoying pop-ups don't happen when you transition from one screen to the next. At least that's a plus.

soldant
28-10-2012, 03:30 AM
Edited to clarify: I meant manual trim. Indexing, defragmentation and "turbo cache" were designed for HDDs and negatively impact SSD performance. No added value in W8 for the end user to make their lives easier in this regard.
Win8 sends TRIM messages to the SSD. It doesn't simply disable defrag for a detected SSD like Win7 did. It's up to the firmware from there to decide what to do with it.


So there's nothing new with the operating system.
There is. WinRT is brand new. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant. The majority of desktop changes are under the hood. You can find out about them just by reading any article that doesn't simply go "Win8 is different and therefore I don't like it."


There's more to time machine in the latest iteration of OSX than delta file backups. Check out a keynote or two.
No, pretty sure that in terms of general file backup functionality there's not a big difference. Time Machine may be a more complete backup system in terms of a full recovery, but Windows has been able to write WMI files for complete drive imaging since Vista. And nobody ever uses it, because generally if we format we don't want to restore from an image, we only want our files back. The fact that Apple called it Time Machine doesn't suddenly make it that much more interesting.


Microsoft did a clean break when they introduced the Windows Desktop Manager in Vista. Everyone went ape shit and it broke a lot of apps, some people are still on XP because of it...
DWM, WDDM, pretty much everything that was a major overhaul in Vista was needed and made the transition exceptionally painful... but that's still a lot different than changing the Registry.


This feature existed in Vista, you can bring it back in Windows 7 wit ha utility. Having a moving background reduces burn-in on monitors and TVs, not sure why you term this an HTPC feature.
Because I can only really see it being used on a HTPC, I don't know how many people hook their PC up to a TV without intending to use it for anything but a HTPC. As for preventing burn in - we do have screensavers, but I'd argue it'd probably be better to turn the display off if it's going to be on for such a long time.


I was curious to know why you are excited about Windows 8. You haven't enlightened me so far.
I'm not necessarily excited about Win8. I'm excited about the possibility of Windows becoming a force in the tablet and phone sectors, which is an exciting part of what Win8 is trying to accomplish. But in saying that, Win8 is not entirely devoid of new features or improvements as you continually suggest. Really, it seems like you've never even sat down with it or read an article about it. Except maybe the ones that go "OH NO NEW WINDOWS NO IT'S BAD DON'T USE IT."

mashakos
28-10-2012, 04:23 AM
Win8 sends TRIM messages to the SSD. It doesn't simply disable defrag for a detected SSD like Win7 did. It's up to the firmware from there to decide what to do with it.
If I want to perform a manual TRIM, I either use a third party app or fire up the command prompt. Defrag does not occur during a TRIM operation. So no extra SSD usability tools in windows 8. What are you talking about?


There is. WinRT is brand new. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant. The majority of desktop changes are under the hood. You can find out about them just by reading any article that doesn't simply go "Win8 is different and therefore I don't like it."
I said compelling feature, not javascrip[t in a box. Glad you are excited about resource hogging apps written using web scripting languages which you can purchase in the Windows 8 App Store.


No, pretty sure that in terms of general file backup functionality there's not a big difference.
Not a big difference?
Auto save and revert capability on any document that can be edited by native mac osx apps out of the box.
Infinite Undo all the way to the first version of a document. Not revert to backup, undo as in ctrl+z while editing the document steps you through ALL the changes you made to the document from the first time you created it.
Side by side compare while editing, and ability to copy/paste to and from different document states in comparison view.

I don't call this functionality "basically the same thing" as scheduled backups.

http://www7.pcmag.com/media/images/264184-apple-mac-os-x-lion-10-7-versions.jpg
http://cdn.mactrast.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Time-Machine-e1311192965241.png


I'm not necessarily excited about Win8. I'm excited about the possibility of Windows becoming a force in the tablet and phone sectors, which is an exciting part of what Win8 is trying to accomplish. But in saying that, Win8 is not entirely devoid of new features or improvements as you continually suggest. Really, it seems like you've never even sat down with it or read an article about it. Except maybe the ones that go "OH NO NEW WINDOWS NO IT'S BAD DON'T USE IT."

You're excited about Win8 in the phone and tablet sectors yet you purchased the desktop version? No logical reason for that, even if you were a windows tablet developer you just need VS 2010 and windows 7. I actually delved into the features of Windows 8 a lot more deeply than you might have. WinRT, the Metro UI, the marketplace - these are all reshufflings of old ideas. The only exception is the new standby sleep states that will allow for specific applications to remain live while consuming minimal power. Aside from that, a tablet UI or an "app development for dummies" wrapper are not innovations in the PC space.

Mohorovicic
28-10-2012, 06:44 AM
Why would you pay 60$?

Because I gotta pay the You're Not Living In A First World Country Tax.

soldant
28-10-2012, 06:54 AM
If I want to perform a manual TRIM, I either use a third party app or fire up the command prompt. Defrag does not occur during a TRIM operation. So no extra SSD usability tools in windows 8. What are you talking about?
Google it.


I said compelling feature, not javascrip[t in a box. Glad you are excited about resource hogging apps written using web scripting languages which you can purchase in the Windows 8 App Store.
You really don't understand much about Win8, do you?


Not a big difference?
Auto save and revert capability on any document that can be edited by native mac osx apps out of the box.
Except that this relies on developer support... so it's not much of a strength if apps don't support it. File History works on any file the user decides to backup. All of the "never have to remember to save again!" shouting by Apple is useless if an app doesn't support it. And nobody uses Pages, so...


You're excited about Win8 in the phone and tablet sectors yet you purchased the desktop version?
Why? It's faster than 7 on my box. It improves multi-monitor support. Task Manager has had a major overhaul. It supports USB3.0 natively. It boots quite a bit quicker (even on my SSD). If I had the Enterprise version, I could create my own Live USB version of the OS and my profile. As far as I'm concerned the extra performance was worth it.


Aside from that, a tablet UI or an "app development for dummies" wrapper are not innovations in the PC space.
Again, so what? Windows 7 wasn't innovative, it was an improvement on what Vista built. Windows 8 didn't have to be a big innovation that revolutionised the old Classic Desktop experience. Win8 is part of a larger whole where Microsoft are trying to unify platforms. You clearly don't think that's a good idea. That's fine. I don't really like Metro as a desktop UI either. But according to you, Windows 8's changes are limited to WinRT, Metro, and little else. The fact that an OS doesn't have a major change does not suddenly mean it introduces nothing new or is absolutely worthless.

If you decide that Win8 isn't for you, that's cool. Clearly lots of people won't like it, or don't think that trying to unify the various form factors is worth it. I won't argue that point too much. I certainly won't argue that Metro is a good thing for the desktop, because it's tolerable at best. But your representation of Win8 isn't accurate. A lot of your criticisms are superficial and ridiculous. I can summarise your criticisms of Win8's x86 desktop mode like this: "I love HTPCs and it doesn't do enough for them. Also, File History isn't Time Machine, and Win8 isn't a major revolution. Therefore it's crap." But neither was Win7, which you love.

renhoelder
28-10-2012, 07:37 AM
Because I gotta pay the You're Not Living In A First World Country Tax.

I'm curious what country do you live in?

If you have any windows, XP/Vista/7 on your machine, you go here :

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/buy?ocid=GA8_O_WOL_DIS_ShopHP_FPP_Light

Click on Download Pro for 39.99$ then proceed to run the Upgrade Assistant, it will tell you what programs you can migrate and if you're eligible for an update, which, if you run XP/Vist/7(even if september the 19th is a day when people talk like you) or even the Consumer Preview of Win 8, you are.

The promo code to knock the price to 14.99$/€/£ go here:

https://www.windowsupgradeoffer.com/

The information you provide doesn't even have to be true, just the date has to been within the last two months. It usually doesn't even ask you for a windows key, but if it does and you don't have to happen to have one. Here is a forum where you can get a promocode very easily:

http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/38524-Windows-8-14-99-Upgrade-Code-is-Now-available/page25

BillButNotBen
28-10-2012, 10:17 AM
I installed the free (for 90 days) RTm version as a dual boot. The install is very fast and painless. (took under 10 mins).

As someone on Vista (which is fine) I think at the current prices it's probably a no-brainer to upgrade. I'm just installing all my main software in the RTM first to check that nothing essential doesn't work. If you were on vista then it's probably not necessary, but given the price it's hardly an issue.

Metro is a pain with a mouse, but if you use the keyboard then it seems ok.

Does anyone know if/when the discount promo will end?

PS/ i asked on the other thread, but what do people think about running win 8 with no 3rd party AV or firewall? It has MS AV built in. I use Avast free AV on vista, but the results for MS AV are reasonably similar.
How about win 8 firewall. XP/Vista firewall was very basic and so I installed Comodo Free. But win 8 firewall seems a little more advanced.
I just have this horrible feeling about running Windows without installing AV and Firewall... it's never been a good idea before.

soldant
28-10-2012, 10:30 AM
Does anyone know if/when the discount promo will end?
Yes, it will. Can't remember when it it's only on for a few months.


I use Avast free AV on vista, but the results for MS AV are reasonably similar.
You should be fine. Spyware/adware is the greater threat rather than the traditional virus, but the newer Windows Defender is fairly good.


How about win 8 firewall. XP/Vista firewall was very basic and so I installed Comodo Free. But win 8 firewall seems a little more advanced.
If you have a router many attacks by default will fail because it won't be able to forward the traffic. Since Vista (or maybe WinXP SP3, can't remember) Windows Firewall has offered inbound and outbound protection so it's fine.


I just have this horrible feeling about running Windows without installing AV and Firewall... it's never been a good idea before.
I dropped an AV package years and years ago when I was still on XP, and I dropped a firewall package with Vista. Spyware and adware are the greatest threats, but you can avoid the vast majority of them anyway. Again if you're got a router the need for a firewall goes down a fair bit, they're more useful these days for stopping a known thing from phoning home (which Windows Firewall has been able to do for ages now). Furthermore if you enable UAC it'll provide an additional layer of protection, but it's still so god-damn annoying that I don't blame you if you don't.

bad guy
28-10-2012, 10:30 AM
I have a broken laptop lying around, with a Vista serial number sticker on it.
Could I use that to aquire Win8 cheap as an upgrade?

renhoelder
28-10-2012, 11:18 AM
I have a broken laptop lying around, with a Vista serial number sticker on it.
Could I use that to aquire Win8 cheap as an upgrade?

Seems like any machine with XP/Vista/7 is eligible and it seems not to bother how dubious the method that you use to get it was. Look at my previous post for the promo code to bring the price down to 14.99€. But you can't upgrade a 32bit XP/Vista/7 machine with the Upgrade Assistant, I think you can do a clean install for that.


The 14.99€/$/£ seems to be running till Feb 28th 2013

mashakos
28-10-2012, 03:53 PM
Google it.

Funny! I'm discussing invoking manual TRIM without resorting to the command prompt and you are talking about how TRIM works. Please reply with an on-topic answer: how has Win8 made it easier to invoke a manual TRIM or any other SSD related task for the normal user? BTW, Win7 does not automatically disable defrag for SSDs, where did you pull that from? Google a bit, get back with some more solid info on this and reply back.

mashakos
28-10-2012, 08:02 PM
You really don't understand much about Win8, do you?
this is hilarious! You really want me to talk to you like a child?
Ok then little buddy, do you know what WinRT was made for? To get developers to make metro aps for Windows 8! and how do we do that kids? By making it easy for lazy developres to write stupidly unoptimized applications and sell them on an app store!

Look at the amazing Google and what it brings up!
Create your first Windows Store app using JavaScript
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/br211385.aspx

Databinding in Windows 8 JavaScript Metro Style Apps
http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/415701/Databinding-in-Windows-8-JavaScript-Metro-Style-Ap


I think I'll stop here.

soldant
29-10-2012, 12:06 AM
Ok then little buddy, do you know what WinRT was made for? To get developers to make metro aps for Windows 8! and how do we do that kids? By making it easy for lazy developres to write stupidly unoptimized applications and sell them on an app store
So basically they should have made something ridiculously complex that requires assembly code or something? You are also aware that you can code your app in C++, C#, or... actually, forget it, it's clear that you're not actually reading anything at all.

Really, do you even have a point to your posts? You're seriously grasping at straws.

mashakos
29-10-2012, 12:35 AM
You are also aware that you can code your app in C++, C#, or...
you are also aware that this is possible with Win XP and above?
ugh... there's a reason for WinRT:

WinRT components are designed with an eye to interoperability between multiple languages and APIs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Runtime

Microsoft is betting on crappy developers using javascript in combination with microsoft's COM based extensions. These extensions are written by the core Windows team in C++ so they're fast and optimized (good) but in the real world there will ALWAYS be a case where a windoows control is not enough and custom code will have to be written to implement features.
So developers are faced with two options: release a limited application with features only supported in the core windows extensions, or implement the custom features using C++ (l33t coders), C#/VB.Net (managed code posers) or javascript (n00bz). Since C++ programmers are not exactly a dime a dozen, guess who the average metro style developer will be? Most likely also metrosexual.


do your homework!

soldant
29-10-2012, 01:01 AM
you are also aware that this is possible with Win XP and above?
Which has nothing to do with what we're discussing! We're talking about WinRT, which has nothing to do with WinXP or 7 or your toaster for that matter.


ugh... there's a reason for WinRT:
Well at least you finally got one thing partially right... but if you were reading I mentioned the entire idea behind WinRT quite a while back. Hint: cross-platform.


do your homework!
I don't need to. For a start I don't need to quote Wikipedia, nor do I need to make up nonsense like C++ IZ FOR LEET CODERZ.


Microsoft is betting on crappy developers using javascript in combination with blah blah also metrosexual.
What the hell are you talking about? Did you just go on a rant about programming languages and then toss in something about metrosexuals?

Okay, yeah, I give up, you win whatever the hell it is that you're trying to argue. Logic well and truly has gone out the window with your posts, it's not worth trying to argue about (or even navigate) whatever ridiculous idea you've come up with.

mashakos
29-10-2012, 01:23 AM
This is going nowhere. Enjoy your purchase of Windows 8.

BillButNotBen
29-10-2012, 09:17 AM
Ok. Now that's over. Back on topic. Anyone else want to throw their opinions in on the need/lack of need for an AV or Firewall on win 7/8?
(though soldant seems to know what he's talking about - thanks dude! It'd just be nice to get a few more opinions. )

Madzack
29-10-2012, 09:18 AM
How is gaming on the Windows 8, btw? Any problems so far?

soldant
29-10-2012, 10:02 AM
How is gaming on the Windows 8, btw? Any problems so far?
Comparable. Pretty much every game that ran on Win7 will run on Win8 without issues. The last benchmarks I saw show a slight decrease in performance from Win7, but it's so slight that it's not something you'll notice and only something that really appears in synthetic benchmarks. It's most likely due to relatively new GPU drivers and the gap will close fairly quickly (if it hasn't already).

Steam still hasn't been updated to allow for its weblinks to work (i.e. the Forum or Manual links from game pages don't do anything - it seems to be unable to pick a web browser to launch).

trjp
01-11-2012, 03:53 AM
I think it's worth remembering that a LOT of people upgraded to W7 straight from XP (anyone with sense, that is) and that meant they saw a fairly big change, quite a few benefits etc. etc.

The move from W7 to W8 is nothing like that sort of a leap - I think MS realise this and hence the discounts to tease you in (before they resort to the childish shit like locking games exclusively to Win8).

I have 2 PCs running the RP of Win8 and whilst I don't dislike using them, I can think of no reason to upgrade this one...

soldant
01-11-2012, 04:49 AM
(before they resort to the childish shit like locking games exclusively to Win8)
If you're referring to Halo 2, well, fair point, there was no good reason for that.

If you're referring to DX10, there was no way DX10 was going to be ported back to XP along with WDDM etc. I would have thought that the absolute failure of DX10 on XP attempts had proven that it was not an arbitrary switch they flipped to lock it into Vista.

In any case, I don't know how you propose that Microsoft lock games exclusively to Win8. They don't hold sway over the majority of publishers or developers, and Dx9 is still standard for games even though Dx10 and Dx11 have been around for quite a few years. This locking games in thing will only be relevant for WinRT apps which are locked to Win8 for blatantly obvious reasons. Any other lock is ridiculous, and Microsoft know that.

ianjones
02-11-2012, 10:33 AM
my hate is no start button, i hope windows will see enough negative feedback to announce things in service pack 1, i think im dubious about getting a new game spec beforehand

Herzog
02-11-2012, 11:31 AM
my hate is no start button, i hope windows will see enough negative feedback to announce things in service pack 1, i think im dubious about getting a new game spec beforehand

Download Classic Shell. Was one of the first things I did when I upgraded to Win8.

http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/

karry
02-11-2012, 03:40 PM
If you have a router many attacks by default will fail
Shouldnt all Internet Providers have routers with most "bad" ports already closed ? Unless you have a specific reason, use virtual IP and you dont need a custom firewall just for that.


I just have this horrible feeling about running Windows without installing AV and Firewall... it's never been a good idea before.
I was a worrier too, then i happened to reinstall OS one day, and just didnt bother with all the AV/Firewall crap. Got one virus in four years, that rebooted my system 30 seconds after startup, cured it in 30 minutes and thats about all that happened on that front. Maybe i'm just lucky (or dont go to any porn sites. seriously, when i had firewall porn sites will ram your doors like an insane bull on steroids).

hariseldon
02-11-2012, 06:56 PM
Was hugely dubious about win8 from trying it on a vm, however my laptop was running like a dog in win7 due to windows cruft so I thought I'd upgrade while I was at it. Hugely impressed so far, the interface is so clean, even metro has grown on me, but the biggie really is how clean the desktop interface is (even little things like file copying). Worth the money.

soldant
03-11-2012, 12:43 PM
Shouldnt all Internet Providers have routers with most "bad" ports already closed ? Unless you have a specific reason, use virtual IP and you dont need a custom firewall just for that.
Not necessarily. My ISP doesn't block any ports and most of them over here won't block ports either, except port 80 to stop people hosting web servers (even then it's remarkably uncommon). Closing "bad" ports can have unwanted side effects if legitimate services decide to use that port, and even some of the "bad" ports have legitimate uses.

Grizzly
03-11-2012, 01:30 PM
As for my own experience:

It is not, in any way, worse then windows 7.
The UI takes some time getting used to, but once you are used to it, you like how everything is hidden and that you can go fullscreen on everything. The new "metro" UI does not offer any advantages over the Windows Desktop right now, although this might change once more programs adapt to it. The system also feels quite a bit more responsive, and I have not detected performance differences in games.

I don't regret upgrading, but neither do I feel fabalous about it.
I did get it for 12,50 euros though.

Space Indaver
03-11-2012, 01:39 PM
Is there still a way to scam that system? $40 is a bit much for a swishy menu.

trjp
04-11-2012, 03:39 PM
Is there still a way to scam that system? $40 is a bit much for a swishy menu.

You could just pirate it like about 60% of people did with W7 - and XP and 2000 and 98 and 95 and...

hariseldon
04-11-2012, 08:47 PM
Go to http://www.windowsupgradeoffer.com/ and make up some crap about upgrading and you'll get it for £17. The only downer is having to have an asus or dell wallpaper on first boot but you can get rid of that. Is anyone really so tight they'd pirate a £17 OS? I'm a Linux enthusiast and even I see that as decent value.

trjp
04-11-2012, 09:35 PM
Go to http://www.windowsupgradeoffer.com/ and make up some crap about upgrading and you'll get it for £17. The only downer is having to have an asus or dell wallpaper on first boot but you can get rid of that. Is anyone really so tight they'd pirate a £17 OS? I'm a Linux enthusiast and even I see that as decent value.

In fairness, lying on that form is the same as just pirating it

See also people who buy 'Academic Upgrades' they're nowhere-near entitled to (for software they don't have a copy to upgrade from) - they're assuaging their own guilt but it's still piracy :)

Finicky
05-11-2012, 02:25 PM
NAY.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=33268524&postcount=16


People defending win 8 are like poor people voting republican : Easily manipulated and stupid enough to act against their own interests.

soldant
05-11-2012, 02:37 PM
People defending win 8 are like poor people voting republican : Easily manipulated and stupid.
It's a bunch of FUD. There are no plans to enforce limits on x86 apps. Hell even the stupid SmartScreen option doesn't actually stop you installing apps, it just requires admin permission. Really, people need to stop making this stuff up. It isn't in Microsoft's best interests to limit x86 apps under Windows - it'd kill off the vast majority of their software library overnight. You could do it on OS X with its much smaller apps library, but never on Windows.

Also it's not "theoretical" that desktop apps are exempt from restrictions - it's a fact. There is no mandatory certification system. There never will be. Whether you like Win8 or not is irrelevant here - this is incorrect information and an attempt at crystal ball gazing which isn't based in reality.

Kiril
05-11-2012, 04:44 PM
I have just updated to Win8. I did it, just to do it. I was curious about it, so I plumped for it, I bought stronghold 3 so I ain't good with money :/

I have to say I really like it, I like the metro UI for the start menu, its a nice overview, with quick buttons to stuff I use all the time set up, it does take a bit of getting used to, and it is designed mainly for tablets and touch screens but it doesn't hurt me with a mouse. I use 2 screens and the corner activation thingy things take a little getting used to but then are very easy to get too, also if you hit winkey + c you get it, or winkey + i for app settings.

I upgraded straight from my install of Win7 and everything still works fine, my wacom tablet, all my games including the likes of Startopia. My steelseries Shift keyboard needed the software to be reinstalled to get it working properly, but wasn't a big hassle.

There are some negatives in that some things are more hidden away under the new interface, and it takes a bit of getting used to get around to them, but for most users that won't matter, the link to the internet is there, games over there, video over here and they don't go further than that. Also I can't get dishonored as a shortcut on my start screen, but can get Guild Wars 2, its awkward like that.

I have to say I LOVE the new search when it comes to programs in the menu, but it doesn't want to search shortcuts on the desktop and a few other things.

I haven't found anything that is fundamentally bad about Win8

The best way I would describe Win 8 is a different flavour of Win 7 like different types of milk, its slightly better in some regards but really comes down to a taste thing.

Maknol
05-11-2012, 06:40 PM
I upgraded and I can say that the interface-formerly-known-as-Metro does feel horribly tacked in. It's like navigating a smartphone but without the appropriate tools for the job (unless you do have a touchscreen and don't mind moving your hands constantly from the keyboard/mouse to the screen).

The whole thing becomes much more bearable after installing the Classic Shell and manually uninstalling all Metro apps. But then again, by that point what you're left with is a barely improved (but way uglier) Windows 7...

You'll also need to avoid the newer versions of Office and Visual Studio, because apparently the whole department responsible for user interfaces at Microsoft went on a vacation and left a trainee in charge - a trainee whose motto in life is "flat, monochromatic interfaces with so much white it'll burn your retina are THE FUTURE!!!".

BillButNotBen
07-11-2012, 06:20 AM
I realise it's a long shot, but i don't suppose anyone has any spare win8 upgrade codes left? Seems the system needs a recent win7 code now, and I'm still on vista. Should have been quicker i guess. ;-)

Space Indaver
07-11-2012, 10:27 AM
NAY.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=33268524&postcount=16


People defending win 8 are like poor people voting republican : Easily manipulated and stupid enough to act against their own interests.
Or people just hadn't heard about that particular aspect of the OS - no need to be a cunt about it.

Stevo
07-11-2012, 03:04 PM
I use it for college a lot on a fairly shitty laptop and it's pretty damn good tbh. I like some of the additions to it, guess what having your OS bring you straight to a download screen for products that handle a file format which you currently can't use is actually useful. As far as developing goes it's pretty damn easy and solutions WinRT offer for specific programming and design problems is a lot nicer then IOS or Android.

trjp
07-11-2012, 03:31 PM
What that Croteam post outlines is really just the foundation of MS attempting to do what Apple are already doing and manipulate the platform entirely to their own advantage.

This sort of this has resulted in legal action and fines before (ironically aimed at MS) and I'm astonished Apple haven't been taken-to-task over their ridiculous 'closed garden' which is iOS. Their entirely 'we make it up as we feel like it' approach to what is and isn't permitted on iOS devices should never have been allowed - let alone left to the point where they control such a massive market without any regulation whatsoever.

MS clearly think "if they can do it - we can do it" and Win8 is a foot in that door - a big foot, wearing those boots goths wear with nails in them and a 5" platform - if you buy Win8, you're saying it's OK

Stevo
07-11-2012, 03:42 PM
What that Croteam post outlines is really just the foundation of MS attempting to do what Apple are already doing and manipulate the platform entirely to their own advantage.

This sort of this has resulted in legal action and fines before (ironically aimed at MS) and I'm astonished Apple haven't been taken-to-task over their ridiculous 'closed garden' which is iOS. Their entirely 'we make it up as we feel like it' approach to what is and isn't permitted on iOS devices should never have been allowed - let alone left to the point where they control such a massive market without any regulation whatsoever.

MS clearly think "if they can do it - we can do it" and Win8 is a foot in that door - a big foot, wearing those boots goths wear with nails in them and a 5" platform - if you buy Win8, you're saying it's OK


People bought Vista, yet by your logic that would of mean that Windows 7 would be complete drivel but it turned out to be their best OS to date.

trjp
07-11-2012, 06:19 PM
People bought Vista, yet by your logic that would of mean that Windows 7 would be complete drivel but it turned out to be their best OS to date.

Which logical fallacy is it which allows you use to use a completely unrelated event to prove this one isn't going to be a problem again? Vista was crap - W7 was Vista with the problems ironed out - that does not mean that W8 is sinister but W9 will be W8 with the sinister ironed-out :)

Win8 is ENTIRELY about Surface Tablets and the Windows Store - which means it offers NOTHING to conventional PC owners (until they lock stuff into it - and they couldn't even be bothered to get Halo so it won't even be anything decent).

Furthermore, Surface/Windows Store will be run as with all previous MS initiatives in that they'll hammer it for a while until a few people are dependant on it and then forget it and let it die on the vine as they come-up with something else. You are crazy to buy into anything MS do - they're even killing MS Messenger (which is a shame because it's great for being that first thing you remove from a slow running pC!!)

soldant
08-11-2012, 12:51 AM
What that Croteam post outlines is really just the foundation of MS attempting to do what Apple are already doing and manipulate the platform entirely to their own advantage.
Nonsense. Croteam are just spreading a bunch of lies. Every year or so someone comes out with some big fear that Microsoft are going to do X and it's going to screw you over, and it's been that way since Windows 95. It never happens. Trying to regulate the x86 software sector would be an exercise in futility, MS would just make the OS entirely useless overnight. Apple can do it because they already have an iron fist grasping the bulk of their major software developers, but that won't fly on Windows. Not by a long shot. MS chose the path of having an open platform back in the 90s while Apple chose control, it's too late to go back now.


Vista was crap - W7 was Vista with the problems ironed out
Except it largely wasn't, because a major reason why Vista was crap was because driver devs apparently sat on their hands doing nothing in between when Vista was finalised and the public release, despite having something like 2 release candidates. Vista was a major overhaul, Win7 wasn't. If Win7 had have been Vista back in 2006, or if they'd waited, Win7 would have been vista.


Win8 is ENTIRELY about Surface Tablets and the Windows Store - which means it offers NOTHING to conventional PC owners (until they lock stuff into it - and they couldn't even be bothered to get Halo so it won't even be anything decent).
While you might be twisting the truth or falling for FUD, at least this part of your posts is correct... well, in part. Win8 definitely is about the tablet interface as an attempt to unify the form factors. And you're right - apart from the numerous under the hood changes that offer improved performance etc, the tablet interface isn't a big drawcard for desktop systems for most people. That said, pretty much everyone I know either has icons strewn across the desktop, or just brings up the Start menu and types in what they want. Functionally, nothing's changed in that regard. The only really frustrating part is the Charms bar. But again the entire "locking things in" idea with x86 apps is nonsense, and since the Windows Store is supposed to be for WinRT apps (that also run on ARM platforms) there's still going to be a lot of software that they can't lock into WinRT (and by extension the Store) anyway.

Also it's kind of ironic that we're getting mad about locked stores etc when we actively demand one of the biggest in gaming gets every game ever and comes out with its own closed OS. Can you guess which one?


they're even killing MS Messenger (which is a shame because it's great for being that first thing you remove from a slow running pC!!)
I don't blame them, they've got Skype now. I'm sick of having two clients.

trjp
08-11-2012, 02:21 AM
Nonsense. Croteam are just spreading a bunch of lies. Every year or so someone comes out with some big fear that Microsoft are going to do X and it's going to screw you over, and it's been that way since Windows 95. It never happens.

Except that it IS happening - you cannot get an app into the 'Metro' interface unless it's sold through MS's Store and certified by them - certification being the usual bullshit of "what we like we like and what we don't like, tough shit" (oh and it will cost money I'm sure).

Outside of that, programs in W8 have no easy way to make themselves available to people - the only alternative is to leave a shortcut on the desktop which is messy and nasty.

What part of "MS have gone to considerable lengths to retake control of what people can and can't have on their desktop' is hard to understand about that?

soldant
08-11-2012, 02:41 AM
Except that it IS happening - you cannot get an app into the 'Metro' interface unless it's sold through MS's Store and certified by them - certification being the usual bullshit of "what we like we like and what we don't like, tough shit" (oh and it will cost money I'm sure).
Modern UI apps are supposed to be WinRT apps, not x86. There's nothing designed to impair the desktop at all. This walled garden approach is no different to iOS or the Google Play store... and side-loading of Modern UI apps is possible on x86 systems. Google Chrome for example can install a Modern UI version which doesn't appear on the Store (or didn't used to, "GetYourGoogleBack" isn't actually Chrome). I think Firefox can as well, haven't tested it. These are x86 only apps though.


Outside of that, programs in W8 have no easy way to make themselves available to people - the only alternative is to leave a shortcut on the desktop which is messy and nasty.
Except the Start Screen, and the Task Bar. And how is that different to Windows 7? The Start Menu was becoming a mess. Most people either pinned things, put them on their desktop, or searched for it from the Start Menu. Otherwise you'd wade through a bunch of pointless folders to find one thing.


What part of "MS have gone to considerable lengths to retake control of what people can and can't have on their desktop' is hard to understand about that?
Because it's not in their best interests. Trying to regulate the x86 app sector would kill Windows. It's a popular platform because it has the most software. Requiring certification for all apps would crush legacy app support overnight, and nobody would use Windows. Microsoft fully understand that. Market dominance is far more important than any comparatively small gains they'd get from forcing x86 apps to go through certification. Different story for Apple, where they'll never get desktop market dominance (at least at the rate they're going), thus with their comparatively smaller app sector they can afford to try to regulate their app sector. Even then Apple haven't managed it entirely, and it's uncertain whether it'll work out for them or not.

The entire "Microsoft want to own everything!" argument may have held some sway in the 90s, but the world has changed dramatically since then. Microsoft won't be able to lock down the x86 app sector. Croteam and friends are brewing a storm in a teacup, presuming that because WinRT apps go through the store that all apps will go through the store. But it's just a paranoid conspiracy. Nobody can demonstrate that Microsoft intend to do that, and it directly goes against their most important asset - owning the desktop market.

mashakos
08-11-2012, 09:59 AM
What to expect from OEMs in Windows 8 (http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-pick/what-to-expect-from-oems-in-windows-8-20121025/)

Buying a new Windows 8 laptop? Even more bloatware purifying games for you! They should add GFWL bloatware removal achievement unlocks for W8.

trjp
08-11-2012, 01:38 PM
Stepping away from a head-to-head argument - I still think Microsoft is attempting to "do an Apple" and build it's own, proprietary appstore and that it will do it's level best to make that AppStore as 'in your face' and unavoidable for X86 desktop owners, as it undoubtedly will for Surface owners (as they are, in effect, using the same interface despite having radically different platforms and input systems)

The only reason I don't think this will be a wholly bad thing is not any reassurance from MS but the historic evidence that MS never do anything properly - they go at it 'great guns', they talk loudly and then they quietly move on and leave everything to rot and die (see GFWL, Zune, earlier Windows Mobile platforms and most everything else except, for some reason, Office which SHOULD have died a long time ago!) :)

Surface tablets will be doorstops in 2 years -if they take-off at all - where does that leave us I wonder?

I just don't like the idea that the desktop I or my users are using has been perverted for the sake of trying to compete with Apple when

a - MS have no chance of doing that
b - even if they did manage it, Google would undermine them anyway

ANYway - as an RPS game playing PC owner, I see no reason whatsoever to upgrade to W8 - but you might want to take their hand off at the desperate "please please buy me" price it's at now and use the disc as a coaster for a few months :)

soldant
08-11-2012, 03:16 PM
Surface tablets will be doorstops in 2 years -if they take-off at all - where does that leave us I wonder?
Microsoft have sold quite a few of them already, and that's only the Surface RT. Interest is much higher in the Surface Pro, but I think people are kidding themselves if they expect tablet endurance from a Core i5. There's a reason ARM devices have superb battery life...


I just don't like the idea that the desktop I or my users are using has been perverted for the sake of trying to compete with Apple when...
They're competing with Apple in the sense that they want the tablet sector. Microsoft tried a tablet version of Windows back when the tablet form factor was a new thing. It was basically Windows XP with a stylus and it was terrible. The UI is totally unsuited to it. Fast forward to Win7 and absolutely nothing has changed.

Apple's only real success with the iPad (in terms of a device) is to make an OS that wasn't useless with a touch screen. Of course they made a lot of compromises with that and sold it primary to "consume" content (though it's since moved away from that). Otherwise iOS is a frustrating piece of shit, and Android isn't much better.

MS are competing with Apple in that they're trying to capture the tablet market and integrate their own ecosystem. As part of that they're trying to unify the platforms, which isn't a bad goal. I don't know why it's such a bad thing to have my desktop and tablet share the same ecosystem. What Microsoft screwed up was enforcing tablet gestures onto desktop users with mice. That part is bullshit and that seems to be where all the complaints come from. I think another issue that people have with the change is that we've had the Start menu since Windows 95 and it's only really changed with an added Search bar over the years. The Start menu needed an overhaul or a replacement, and we got it. I think the icons are still too large for a desktop but functionally it's not a massive change. Really I think a lot of the resistance to the Start screen comes about from a sense of tradition than it being an actual UI nightmare (except for the gestures, again that's bullshit).

The other major "complaint" (fear-mongering might be a better term) about trying to lock x86 apps is absurd. They won't do it. They'd be stupid to try it in this day and age. It'd kill the golden goose. Again the software library is absolutely massive and legacy support is still remarkably extensive (yes, CPUs etc, lease don't bring up your P4 again I already know the story). Do you honestly believe they'd kill that and infuriate pretty much all of the business users relying on that support, along with pretty much everyone else using Windows?

10 or 20 years from now things might be different, but computing will probably be a hell of a lot different too (if you tried telling us 8 years ago that we'd all be buying games on Steam and you'd have been laughed out of a forum) so it might not be so much of an issue. Whether or not the Windows Store is any good remains to be seen (and part of that will be up to the developers - plenty of them can't even manage to release proper Android apps and just target iOS). But again, the x86 lockdown is pure FUD. Croteam are picking up someone else's ball and running with it. GabeN is worried about one thing - Steam's Profits, and you can bet that he'd love an OS that was locked into Steam's walled garden. Unfortunately, most of the people on RPS would line up to buy into it.

trjp
08-11-2012, 08:45 PM
As someone who develops for Android/iOS, I'm not impressed with their tablet offerings in OS/capability terms BUT it's fascinating to see what a success the iPad has become, because it's almost entirely down to software developers embracing it and making things which work on it.

Android's tablet offerings are largely phone apps 'scaled up' (and often not properly) - but there are some genuinely innovative and cool things available on iPad and it's made it the best tablet by FAR

I just don't see that happening for Surface - the sort of people who come-up with this stuff are very enamoured of Apple and see their devices as the 'creatives choice' which is why we get art stuff and music stuff which isn't so common on other platforms.

MS know that a staggering number of people buy a laptop 'for Facebook' tho and they realise that those people are now not bothering because their phone/a tablet can do that. MS probably think they can woo these people back - I think they can't and I've NO idea who will buy their tablets otherwise, aside from risk-averse IT managers (who are the only people MS make money from anyway!)

soldant
09-11-2012, 02:03 AM
Android's tablet offerings are largely phone apps 'scaled up' (and often not properly) - but there are some genuinely innovative and cool things available on iPad and it's made it the best tablet by FAR
I totally agree, Android is remarkably backwards with tablets. People asked why I got an iPad instead of one of the Android tabs, but that's the exact reason why I don't use them. It's like tablets are an afterthought.


I just don't see that happening for Surface - the sort of people who come-up with this stuff are very enamoured of Apple and see their devices as the 'creatives choice' which is why we get art stuff and music stuff which isn't so common on other platforms.
This is obviously subjective, but I don't see many people using iPads to "create" anything. I know there's a bunch of art and music stuff but I'd say it's a safe bet that by and large the average user doesn't use them. One thing I do notice however is that people get frustrated with shuffling files through iTunes and not being able to properly edit Word documents or something. My dad is always asking for help on how to get File X or Y to his iPad (thankfully apps like GoodReader have made this a lot easier) and then asks why he can't edit it or why his Word docs formatting is screwed up. "Why can't I just plug in my USB drive? Why can't I just copy files off the iPad? Why does this have to be such a chore?"

If we're talking about the Surface RT (not the Pro, where you might as well just call it a really small Ultrabook with a touch screen, I think 'tablet' implies an ARM processor these days) then you're right that it's got a hell of an uphill fight going up against the iPad, not only because of the massive app market but like you said it's entrenched as the popular choice. But a mostly functional version of Office (save for macros/scripts etc, which won't matter to a lot of users) as well as proper NTFS/FAT32 volume support, does it put in a better position from a utility perspective. Without the apps to follow though you're right, it's not going to make it.

Also IE10 is horrible under ModernUI.

mashakos
09-11-2012, 01:28 PM
This is obviously subjective, but I don't see many people using iPads to "create" anything. I know there's a bunch of art and music stuff but I'd say it's a safe bet that by and large the average user doesn't use them. One thing I do notice however is that people get frustrated with shuffling files through iTunes and not being able to properly edit Word documents or something. My dad is always asking for help on how to get File X or Y to his iPad (thankfully apps like GoodReader have made this a lot easier) and then asks why he can't edit it or why his Word docs formatting is screwed up. "Why can't I just plug in my USB drive? Why can't I just copy files off the iPad? Why does this have to be such a chore?"

lol, your dad actually knows how to use a usb drive? That must be an uncomfortable demographic to be in: "old people" who lack advanced computer-fu but have discovered how to copy from and to flash drives!

First thing I did for my dad after gifting him an iPad was purchasing Pages (http://www.apple.com/apps/pages/). He can now open and edit pdf/word docs emailed to him, then just send them when needed. Luckily, he has not discovered usb drives!

BillButNotBen
10-11-2012, 08:50 AM
I'm also slightly surprised that the EU is still fighting the Browser battle against MS (in a world where chrome is now #1), but there seems to be little movement against MS or Google for their stores. I figure apple avoided problems for a long time due to being a much smaller market. But you'd think regulators would want to force all three to open up their stores.

soldant
10-11-2012, 11:25 AM
lol, your dad actually knows how to use a usb drive? That must be an uncomfortable demographic to be in: "old people" who lack advanced computer-fu but have discovered how to copy from and to flash drives!

First thing I did for my dad after gifting him an iPad was purchasing Pages (http://www.apple.com/apps/pages/). He can now open and edit pdf/word docs emailed to him, then just send them when needed. Luckily, he has not discovered usb drives!
Well he used to be pretty computer literate in the early 90s. Pages isn't bad I guess but it's still absurdly frustrating. Also none of them properly support docx formatting.

trjp
10-11-2012, 04:46 PM
This - whilst a bit grating in places - pretty much explains my issues with the Win8 interface concepts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0fsyb-ttcw&feature=watch-vrec

Nicely, they also have a guide to get around a lot of the shit - but the shit is there...

Tams80
10-11-2012, 07:10 PM
It's not too bad. I probably should have stuck with Windows 7 as I've had some driver issues, which I still haven't find a fix for. I also liked Aero, but the 'Metro' desktop UI is quite nice. I also quite like the Start Screen and the swipes/hotspots are quite good (though I would like there to be: all program/app swipe, just desktop swipe and a just app swipe).

I find the picture password thing to be rather pointless; on large screens it just makes it easier for people to see your 'password'.

The new task manager is certainly better. I haven't really seen any increases in performance; perhaps if I did a clean install, but that would be hard to judge with an old Windows 7 install.

I must say though, the very first thing I did after installation was buy and install Start8. Windows just felt wrong without a Start orb and I can now avoid the Start Screen completely should I wish.



They're competing with Apple in the sense that they want the tablet sector. Microsoft tried a tablet version of Windows back when the tablet form factor was a new thing. It was basically Windows XP with a stylus and it was terrible. The UI is totally unsuited to it. Fast forward to Win7 and absolutely nothing has changed.


As someone who uses a TabletPC daily, I say this is a load of malarkey. Sure, it takes some getting used to and XP Tablet Edition wasn't the best, but from Vista onwards, TabletPCs were definitely not terrible; all native Windows applications supported touch very well. The only real problem was the size of the UI, but as a TabletPCs were intended to be both tablets and standard computers, this meant a trade off somewhere. As most TabletPCs come with styli, which essential act like mice, the problem was even less significant.

Now, Windows 8 does make using a TabletPC better; with essentially two different ecosystems, one made especially for touch. 'Metro' or ModernUI still seems rather limited and I still use the desktop most of the time on my TabletPC, even in tablet mode. I think it's probably the way the ModernUI apps take up the whole screen.

Maknol
11-11-2012, 01:13 AM
Thanks for that link, it does highlight several problems I had while trying it.

soldant
11-11-2012, 03:51 AM
I find the picture password thing to be rather pointless; on large screens it just makes it easier for people to see your 'password'.
Well, it's designed for tablet touch screens...


As someone who uses a TabletPC daily, I say this is a load of malarkey.
And yet it wasn't until the iPad that the form factor became popular, so unfortunately it isn't. Tablets as a form factor didn't catch on until the iPad and even then they appeared in a different role. The older style tablet PCs were inconvenient, underperforming, and needed a stylus as you said. It didn't help that the touch screens weren't particularly good.

Even with Vista and Win7 changing a few things for touch interfaces, Windows was designed for a mouse. Try using Win8's classic desktop on a Surface RT - it's frustrating because the UI is still tiny. A stylus is an inconvenience.

No, tablet PCs weren't any good until just recently. Which is why few people ever bought them, particularly in the consumer sector. In fact the only place I see the old tablet PC form factor these days (pre iPad generation) is in Toughbooks with ambulance and healthcare services. Even then they're a pain to use.

DigitalSignalX
11-11-2012, 09:39 PM
I used XP for quite a long time, and avoided upgrading only till I absolutely had to for DX11 gaming. Skipping Vista, I went to Win7 and was very happy with the reliability, security, and performance upgrades. I still use a classic desktop on 7, and the behind the scenes changes on 8 are simply not significant enough to warrant an upgrade IMHO since the Metro and cosmetic changes frankly are not desirable.

I feel absolutely no need to upgrade to 8, even though that is an awesome deal.

Namdrol
12-11-2012, 12:04 AM
I feel absolutely no need to upgrade to 8, even though that is an awesome deal.

one has to wonder why they are almost giving their OS away this time though.

Maknol
12-11-2012, 01:16 AM
I'd say the ads embedded in the Metro apps are a good clue.

Also, this.
http://boingboing.net/2012/11/08/mic...ing-on-yo.html (http://boingboing.net/2012/11/08/microsoft-patents-spying-on-yo.html)

soldant
12-11-2012, 01:25 AM
I'd say the ads embedded in the Metro apps are a good clue.
Haven't seen any yet.


http://boingboing.net/2012/11/08/mic...ing-on-yo.html (http://boingboing.net/2012/11/08/microsoft-patents-spying-on-yo.html)
If that ends up happening, I'll be on the frontlines to fight it. But right now they've just patented a stupid ideas. As the article points out, lots of companies patent things that don't make it into their products. It's disturbing, but isn't a reality.

Maknol
12-11-2012, 01:27 AM
Try scrolling all the way to the right in the weather app, that's the one I usually see mentioned.

As for the patent, true. But it doesn't help their case in any way.

Stevo
12-11-2012, 06:28 PM
You know that adds that are in the app are put there by developers and not directly by MS. Patent wise they could be using it to get the Entertainment industry of their back for not doing anything to stop whatever you want to call this (presumably they want to call it piracy). It's the same thing that happened in Ireland, the record industry threatened to sue a number of ISP's (or was it the Govt can't remember) if they didn't block TPB.

Maknol
12-11-2012, 07:58 PM
http://adage.com/article/digital/microsoft-adds-25-brands-windows-8-ads-apps/238099/

I'm assuming Microsoft takes a cut in the advertisement proceedings of third-party apps, but I don't know enough to say for sure.

Ads in their own apps are all profit for Microsoft, of course.

Stevo
12-11-2012, 09:31 PM
http://adage.com/article/digital/microsoft-adds-25-brands-windows-8-ads-apps/238099/

I'm assuming Microsoft takes a cut in the advertisement proceedings of third-party apps, but I don't know enough to say for sure.

Ads in their own apps are all profit for Microsoft, of course.

Basically they have an SDK for developers (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh871390%28v=msads.10%29.aspx) to plug in areas in their app that will be reserved for adds. This area is generic so i don't go about putting in an add for Coke MS will automatically do that for me. It's the pay by click method anyway. MS probably got a killing fee from those companies they can boast a user base of 860 million potential customers.

soldant
13-11-2012, 12:25 AM
Try scrolling all the way to the right in the weather app, that's the one I usually see mentioned.
Huh, never noticed that before. All it ever seems to display for me though is an ad for Bing Travel.

Namdrol
13-11-2012, 03:30 AM
advertisements. great.

I'd love to know why Sinofsky (sp?) was fired.

Henke
13-11-2012, 08:48 AM
I feel absolutely no need to upgrade to 8, even though that is an awesome deal.

Yup. That's the same boat I find myself in. It's a good deal and 8 sounds pretty good overall, but 7 is working just fine for me at the moment.

I'll probably be kicking myself for not upgrading early when they jack up the price though. :|

renhoelder
13-11-2012, 10:18 AM
We'll you could just buy it now when it's still cheap and upgrade later, I doubt it'll be any cheaper than 14.99$/€/£ soon

trjp
13-11-2012, 12:34 PM
Yeah, I'd say "take their arm off" on the upgrade but don't update just yet (no-one with sense uses an MS OS before SP1) - they'll iron-out the kinks and we'll have a much better picture of what's going on in 3 months-or-so.

Also - I NEVER EVER 'upgade' anyway - clean install every time, if you're going to do it, do it properly - don't drag all your crap and baggage along with you.

Maknol
13-11-2012, 12:41 PM
The "upgrade" code can be used with a clean install of Win8 too, or so I'm told.

That said, I'd suggest holding on for now too. Keep the code and install next year, if ever. Right now, the Metro UI is infuriatingly bad outside of a touchscreen device. I almost got into a fight with my girl yesterday because she was forced to use it in my laptop.

Stevo
13-11-2012, 12:47 PM
The "upgrade" code can be used with a clean install of Win8 too, or so I'm told.

That said, I'd suggest holding on for now too. Keep the code and install next year, if ever. Right now, the Metro UI is infuriatingly bad outside of a touchscreen device. I almost got into a fight with my girl yesterday because she was forced to use it in my laptop.

It's honestly not that bad, it's just new and people don't like "new" UI's especially when you v grown up with a desktop layout. You can download free program which gives you a normal start button or if you want you can pay Stardock 5 quid for their UI solution which is pretty nice too. I don't think id ever use Win8 for a desktop machine but for a laptop I think it suits all of my needs down to a tee.

Maknol
13-11-2012, 01:12 PM
I do have the ClassicShell installed. The desktop interface is mostly annoyance-free, it's just when you're yanked into the formerly-known-as-Metro UI that your entire experience is disrupted.

The standard defense of "people don't like change" does not convince me. I'm used to adapting to new interfaces. For me, Metro just doesn't cut it. It's a bad PC port of a tablet UI. It's like trying to use Photoshop with a joystick.

trjp
13-11-2012, 01:51 PM
Yeah, the "you'll get used to it" or "you can hack it to work like W7" arguments are bollocks - the simple fact is that the Metro stuff is junk for laptops/desktops and will be a dead duck in tablet terms within 2-3 years anyway.

I suspect MS already realised they've driven at full speed into a dead-end - they're got zero chance of turning the tide that is people not using laptops/desktops anymore because they have smartphones and tablets - they'll thrive as they have before, from short-sighted risk-averse IT managers buying everything they offer (see also Oracle) but the end is in sight for MS as any sort of leader in IT terms (if they ever were one).

Stevo
13-11-2012, 02:12 PM
I do have the ClassicShell installed. The desktop interface is mostly annoyance-free, it's just when you're yanked into the formerly-known-as-Metro UI that your entire experience is disrupted.

The standard defense of "people don't like change" does not convince me. I'm used to adapting to new interfaces. For me, Metro just doesn't cut it. It's a bad PC port of a tablet UI. It's like trying to use Photoshop with a joystick.

Honestly I don't mind Metro intrusive to get stuff done. If your staring at the Start menu trying to do file searches i can see how you'd get annoyed but other then that I don't know how you can be beating your head against a wall trying to do things it's pretty damn basic.

Maknol
13-11-2012, 05:03 PM
It's not basic, and it's not intuitive at all. Please note I'm not talking about just opening the metro start screen, I'm talking about using one of the metro apps for whatever reason - the PDF reader, for instance, or the photo browser.

The interface is completely revamped all of a sudden, and familiar actions are done in unintuitive, arcane ways. Often with invisible cues that a new user can get extremely annoyed finding out without assistance.

For instance, closing the current window (click on the right corner? No, you have to hold the mouse on an invisible spot in the upper middle and drag it down), changing tabs in the browser (you have to first click the right button for them to appear, and by the way, the address bar is now at the bottom for no good reason!), returning to the Metro start screen without the keyboard (you gotta click an invisible spot in the left corner), switching to another app (move the mouse to the corner, then slowly drag it down without pressing anything, your open apps will then appear... hopefully). Many actions are hidden behind a right button click, and these options don't appear near the mouse cursor as they should, it's always in a fixed bar across the edge of the screen. FFS, even the button for shutting the computer down is hidden in a completely obscure place that demands knowledge of an invisible clickable area!

I mean, I could go on and on. I'm just citing these annoyances by memory from yesterday's events. The whole implementation of the UI is a disaster, and I can't fathom how there can be people defending it outside of a touchscreen device.

Namdrol
13-11-2012, 09:32 PM
I can't fathom how there can be people defending it outside of a touchscreen device.

Probably a rhetorical question, I'm sure, but...

There is this thing called 'emotional branding', and it describes how people get emotionally involved with brands. Emotional responses are quick and occur before rational thought. Moreover, the natural tendency is for people to use their rational mind only to justify their emotional responses. So, when it comes to decision making and beliefs, emotions trump reason.

So if a company is lucky enough to get people emotionally involved in their brands, the reaction of those people to criticism of that brand will be fast, emotional, and highly resistant to reasoning. Kind of like when somebody criticizes another's child, or even religion.

You see it all the time in comment sections, amazon reviews, forums, coffee shops, families, your own head, etc.

Stevo
14-11-2012, 01:08 PM
Probably a rhetorical question, I'm sure, but...

There is this thing called 'emotional branding', and it describes how people get emotionally involved with brands. Emotional responses are quick and occur before rational thought. Moreover, the natural tendency is for people to use their rational mind only to justify their emotional responses. So, when it comes to decision making and beliefs, emotions trump reason.

So if a company is lucky enough to get people emotionally involved in their brands, the reaction of those people to criticism of that brand will be fast, emotional, and highly resistant to reasoning. Kind of like when somebody criticizes another's child, or even religion.

You see it all the time in comment sections, amazon reviews, forums, coffee shops, families, your own head, etc.


Or else it suits their needs and have yet to fallen into said pitfalls, i know shock horror that people may enjoy software.

Chongx3
15-11-2012, 01:09 AM
TL;DR version of mine

Buy Windows 8 if:

you have money to spend
you want to upgrade your OS from Windows Vista and later
you want a little improvement in performance than Windows 7 (i.e. faster boot speed, ARM etc)
you think you will use whatever new things Windows 8 will offer (Touchscreen-Metro, Windows Store etc)

No need to buy Windows 8 if:

you have no money/better usage of money for other stuff (maybe games?)
you don't really care about little bits of new stuff Windows 8 will offer compare to Windows 7
you're getting along with Windows 7 just fine


Reference: My experience with Windows 8 trial for 1 month, then I switched back to Windows 7

soldant
15-11-2012, 04:26 AM
The whole implementation of the UI is a disaster, and I can't fathom how there can be people defending it outside of a touchscreen device.
I agree that the Modern UI/Metro/Whatever apps aren't good on the desktop. I don't use them on my desktop exactly for that reason. I spend the majority of my time on the Classic Desktop, where the UI is largely the same. The Start menu has been replaced with a Start screen, functionally identical (save for Live tiles) except in a different layout. The only real problem is the useless Charms on the right side.

The point I'm making is that there's no obligation to use the Modern UI apps on the desktop. They're designed for a touch screen. You're free to use whatever else you like. Picking on the address bar being at the bottom of the screen under the ModernUI version of IE10 is nitpicking - it's down there because the onscreen keyboard pops up underneath it. That's pointless for a desktop app, but it's not designed for the desktop, so don't use it.

The benefits for the desktop are primary under the hood in the way of performance improvements, rewritten subsystems, etc. If that isn't a drawcard for you, don't update. But the constant complaining about the new UI seems to largely complain because it's different and as if the new apps are forced onto you. They're not - just unpin or uninstall them, or ignore them. Problem solved.

mashakos
15-11-2012, 07:50 AM
Steven Sinofsky leaves Microsoft (http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/11/steven-sinofsky-windows-president-leaving-microsoft-effective-immediately/)


Steven Sinofsky, president of Windows and Windows Live Division, is leaving Microsoft effective immediately, reports All Things D.
The move is claimed to be a result of growing discontent within the software giant, with a number of executives reportedly unhappy when working with him due to his failure to be a "team player." Such a move has striking parallels with Scott Forstall's recent exit from Apple.
Sinofsky held his current position since 2009, but he joined Microsoft in 1989, more than 20 years ago. All Things D says responsibility for Windows will now be split between two of Sinofsky's reports: Julie Larson-Green, who will head up Windows engineering, and Tami Reller, who will take care of the business side.

the guy behind windows 8's vision just got fired. Bodes well for the OS!

Stevo
15-11-2012, 11:35 AM
Steven Sinofsky leaves Microsoft (http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/11/steven-sinofsky-windows-president-leaving-microsoft-effective-immediately/)



the guy behind windows 8's vision just got fired. Bodes well for the OS!




To help answer that question, I talked to Patrick Moorhead of MoorInsights (http://venturebeat.com/2012/11/13/will-sinofskys-departure-slow-down-windows-8-and-surface-innovation/www.MoorInsightsStrategy.com), who has worked with Sinofsky on multiple occasions and talked to others he works with. The upshot is that it’s possible Steven Sinofsky is another Scott Forstall: an ass-kicker who gets stuff done … at a cost.
“He was a very alienating character. He alienated partners, he alienated ISVs, he alienated other people at Microsoft, and left a trail of disenfranchised people,” Moorhead told me.
“It’s very similar to the recent departure from Apple of Scott Forstall,” he added. “I’ve worked for people like this … they end up getting a lot of things done — amazing things, actually — but they hurt a lot of people.”

Read more at http://venturebeat.com/2012/11/13/will-sinofskys-departure-slow-down-windows-8-and-surface-innovation/#S6xFokhUj2bpqHWb.99


He was an asshole who was told to leave. More common in the IT industry then you expect.

mashakos
15-11-2012, 05:39 PM
He was an asshole who was told to leave. More common in the IT industry then you expect. [/FONT][/COLOR]

even if he was the grinch, firing him literally at the launch of windows 8 doesn't instill a lot of confidence in Microsoft and their strategy for Windows 8 (a strategy put in place by someone they just dropped). This looks like an act of desperation.

Stevo
15-11-2012, 09:35 PM
even if he was the grinch, firing him literally at the launch of windows 8 doesn't instill a lot of confidence in Microsoft and their strategy for Windows 8 (a strategy put in place by someone they just dropped). This looks like an act of desperation.

Why keep him on? If his sole purpose was to oversee the release of Windows 8 why keep him around when it's been pushed outside.

mashakos
16-11-2012, 12:49 AM
Why keep him on? If his sole purpose was to oversee the release of Windows 8 why keep him around when it's been pushed outside.
As I understand it the guy's performance wasn't what lead to the termination.
My general impression is that if you don't keep a (competent) project lead at least to follow through with his devised plan, it means the original strategy is being abandoned or contorted by a committee of people with their own agendas into a new form that probably won't work.

soldant
16-11-2012, 01:13 AM
As I understand it the guy's performance wasn't what lead to the termination.
As I understand it, he didn't play nice with others, so he got pushed. At least that's what the articles are saying. Anything about it being a comment on MS' confidence in Windows 8 is speculative at best. Whether or not Win8 is a success depends mostly on the tablet and phone sector, and if it works, you can bet Microsoft will carry it on.

Given how excited people are about the Lumia 920 and Surface Pro, it seems like they've got a real shot at it. If Microsoft weren't impressed with the vision of Win8 they would have delayed it and scrapped it ages back. Instead they invested in putting out their own tablet. Clearly they do have at least some confidence in it.

mashakos
16-11-2012, 01:18 AM
As I understand it, he didn't play nice with others, so he got pushed. At least that's what the articles are saying. Anything about it being a comment on MS' confidence in Windows 8 is speculative at best. Whether or not Win8 is a success depends mostly on the tablet and phone sector, and if it works, you can bet Microsoft will carry it on.

Given how excited people are about the Lumia 920 and Surface Pro, it seems like they've got a real shot at it. If Microsoft weren't impressed with the vision of Win8 they would have delayed it and scrapped it ages back. Instead they invested in putting out their own tablet. Clearly they do have at least some confidence in it.

Maybe. I'm not going to bring up Windows ME in this conversation :P

soldant
16-11-2012, 04:32 AM
Maybe. I'm not going to bring up Windows ME in this conversation :P
ME was a pointless stop-gap between the 9x consumer kernel line and the move to using the NT kernel for everything. I have no idea why Microsoft decided to release that, because people generally either stuck with 98 or were using 2000.

But the same arguments flying around over Win8 were around when Vista was released, and again when Windows XP came out. Did Microsoft die? Nope. I remember forums were rife with threats to switch to Linux or Mac, and the majority of people never did. Hell with Vista, Microsoft just basically released an updated version that took advantage of the better driver support, and people decided it was awesome... yet it's still using the core foundation set by Vista.

mashakos
16-11-2012, 04:55 AM
I actually was glad that Microsoft finally entered the 21st century with Vista's WDDM and Media Foundation. Vista was unfairly stigmatised because of it's rough start, but it was great. Kept it on my system from '06 to '11.

Rossi
16-11-2012, 01:13 PM
you are also aware that this is possible with Win XP and above?
ugh... there's a reason for WinRT:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Runtime

Microsoft is betting on crappy developers using javascript in combination with microsoft's COM based extensions. These extensions are written by the core Windows team in C++ so they're fast and optimized (good) but in the real world there will ALWAYS be a case where a windoows control is not enough and custom code will have to be written to implement features.
So developers are faced with two options: release a limited application with features only supported in the core windows extensions, or implement the custom features using C++ (l33t coders), C#/VB.Net (managed code posers) or javascript (n00bz). Since C++ programmers are not exactly a dime a dozen, guess who the average metro style developer will be? Most likely also metrosexual.


do your homework!

Biggest load of toss I have ever read.

Not used .NET Framework then? If anyone insists on using C++ to write Windows apps they are wasting their time when the can accomplish the exact same thing using the Framework provided by Microsoft to make it easier to develop applications.

Granted, there is room for C++ if you're working near the CPU but other than that, there is little to no point.

What is this l33t coders bullshit? You can still write crappy code with C++ and you're more likely to royally mess things up with it.

Sparkasaurusmex
16-11-2012, 01:57 PM
Didn't a game just get canceled because it was using .NET Framework and they were told it would no longer be supported?
I don't remember the game (something indie) and maybe I've got it totally wrong.

Rossi
16-11-2012, 02:02 PM
What would no longer be supported? .NET Framework? I don't think so, it's on every PC since Vista.

.NET Framework 5 is soon to be released. It's the defacto development platform for Windows now.

Sparkasaurusmex
16-11-2012, 02:22 PM
Nevermind, the game was called The Swindle and the thing the developer had trouble with was XNA, not .NET

Rossi
16-11-2012, 02:29 PM
XNA is integrated into .NET Framework 4 now.

mashakos
17-11-2012, 08:58 AM
Biggest load of toss I have ever read.

Not used .NET Framework then? If anyone insists on using C++ to write Windows apps they are wasting their time when the can accomplish the exact same thing using the Framework provided by Microsoft to make it easier to develop applications.

Granted, there is room for C++ if you're working near the CPU but other than that, there is little to no point.

What is this l33t coders bullshit? You can still write crappy code with C++ and you're more likely to royally mess things up with it.

another lazy programmer gushing about dot net. Good for you!

Space Indaver
17-11-2012, 01:36 PM
another lazy programmer gushing about dot net. Good for you!
I could walk to work. I choose to drive, because I don't base my self-esteem on needless self-flagellation.

Kaira-
18-11-2012, 03:29 PM
I could walk to work. I choose to drive, because I don't base my self-esteem on needless self-flagellation.

Walking with your feet is so plebeian, real men walk on their hands.

Kaira-
20-11-2012, 04:42 PM
Tangentially related to this thread:

Adventures in Microsoft UEFI signing (http://blog.hansenpartnership.com/adventures-in-microsoft-uefi-signing/). Seems that the system is crapshoot with MS hampering the progress on every step - not surprising in the least.

Ravelle
21-11-2012, 09:35 AM
I've been using it for a week or two now and encountered no problems and everything works like it should. The Metro UI is actually quite nice for your game icons, keeps your desktop nice and tidy.

http://i.imgur.com/lGMPJ.jpg

Roz
23-11-2012, 12:53 PM
With free windows 8 keys from Microsoft, You might as well give it a go.
http://www.extremetech.com/computing/141052-microsoft-accidentally-gifts-pirates-with-a-free-windows-8-pro-license-key

The link to the Microsoft website is http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/feature-packs just enter your email and they send you a windows 8 key in ~24 hours.

TechnicalBen
23-11-2012, 06:53 PM
I've been using it for a week or two now and encountered no problems and everything works like it should. The Metro UI is actually quite nice for your game icons, keeps your desktop nice and tidy.

http://i.imgur.com/lGMPJ.jpg

We all how our likes and dislikes. That makes me want to vomit (the GUI, not your pictures! Your pictures are great). Reminds me of the internet in 1998 too.

Boris
28-11-2012, 11:40 AM
another lazy programmer gushing about dot net. Good for you!

What do you program in? Because if it's anything other than bare metal assembly, you're lazy. I'd work a bro do you even lift reference in here but I can't be bothered.

But seriously, stop being so condescending. If you want to appear to know everthing better than everyone, be prepared to actually know everything better because sooner or later someone will call you out on something you got wrong. There's always someone better than you.

Boris
28-11-2012, 11:42 AM
Oh by the way, I got Win8 for free though MSDN and I'm not installing it for fulltime use. I dislike the interface.

Ravelle
28-11-2012, 03:16 PM
You only deal with that metro UI when you're hitting the windows key, it's like a new start menu. It's gone the moment you start a program or return to the desktop like you're used to, it keeps your desktop nice and clean and you have all your programs nicely organized in one screen with a button push.

Maknol
28-11-2012, 05:13 PM
Unless you make the dreadful mistake of not uninstalling the Metro apps (default for opening their respective file types) as soon as you install Windows 8.

Grizzly
29-11-2012, 10:51 AM
The "upgrade" code can be used with a clean install of Win8 too, or so I'm told.


Just wanted to confirm that you can.
It basically gives you three options on install:
Do a standard upgrade, keeping the registry, all installed programs and your personal folders.
Do a clean install but keep your personal folders (It renames the windows folder to windows.old and makes a new install, but it keeps your data. Clicking my documetns will result in getting the my documetns folder you had before, which is neat)
Do a full clean install (probably Format C)

Bhazor
23-12-2012, 02:36 PM
As a netbook user Windows 8 is fantastic.

Start up/shutdown time has been cut by more than half, I get an extra half hour battery life and in game I've seen a 10-15% boost in performance. For £25 I can't recommend it enough.

The search feature is very versatile and after a few days I really don't miss the old start menu. My only complaint is that my resolution (1280x720) is too small to run the metro apps (1024x768), which I don't really care about but I can't help but feel irked that I'm missing out on features.

bad guy
23-12-2012, 02:38 PM
It's (currently) cheap and does what Win7 does.
UI takes getting used to because it is new.

Utnac
28-12-2012, 02:16 AM
It's (currently) cheap and does what Win7 does.
UI takes getting used to because it is new.

So why pay for something that does nothing new and is more cumbersome to navigate?

Sakkura
28-12-2012, 02:35 AM
So why pay for something that does nothing new and is more cumbersome to navigate?
Improves boot times and is slightly more optimized. A few other little improvements. If they had just added an option to stick with Win 7 UI it would have been a no-brainer.

Sketch
28-12-2012, 06:07 AM
For the price I paid it's quite nice, and will happily stick with it.

bad guy
28-12-2012, 11:01 AM
So why pay for something that does nothing new and is more cumbersome to navigate?
Not everyone is using Win7. If you are still using WinXP it does quite a few new things.

I don't know about it being more cumbersome to navigate after you have gotten used to it.
Starting games/browser and modifying a file here and there shouldn't be too hard.

Ravelle
28-12-2012, 06:11 PM
So why pay for something that does nothing new and is more cumbersome to navigate?

Cumbersome? No problem with it at all, it takes getting used too but it's smooth sailing so far. Booting your PC from off to Windows in 10 seconds is also a nice feature.

People seem to be disliking the metro part but I think it's quite handy to store all your game icons, no more cluttered desktop.

mashakos
28-12-2012, 06:21 PM
Cumbersome? No problem with it at all, it takes getting used too but it's smooth sailing so far. Booting your PC from off to Windows in 10 seconds is also a nice feature.

People seem to be disliking the metro part but I think it's quite handy to store all your game icons, no more cluttered desktop.
There are better ways to organise games than Metro UI...
Steam Big Picture Mode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70La2y05BJk)
Gamebrowser II for Media Center (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJfuGoKqVN4)

there are a bunch of problems with being a Win8 early adopter:
Free/open source codec packs are back to being buggy piles of garbage with their Win8 releases after they had become almost perfect in the past two years on Win7.

Tons of great windows utilities written by small hobbyists for free don't work in Win8

No media center, no DVD playback.

M$ bribes you with a "free" Media Center coupon until the end of this month. Even if you do get it, half the extensions and plugins that worked perfectly fine on Vista and Win7 now crash or straight up don't start.

These are off the top of my head. I'm sure future apps will start showing bugs that don't occur on Win7/Vista.

While Windows 8 breaks quite a few things, it offers nothing new to the desktop PC user.
Windows Vista brought us a robust desktop search engine "search from the start menu", hardware accelerated UI with Double Buffering (envious of mac OSX users having that since 2001!), and Media Center. Windows 7 tweaked a few things in Vista, gave us better performance and a few useability improvements, my favourite being Win+direction keys and adding recent files to every app listed in the start menu shortcut list.

What does Windows 8 offer me, the home or professional desktop PC user?
A tiled UI? I can download my own thank you very much (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDPMQlLxlDY), developed by competent programmers not a committee of talking heads.
Nonsensical "gestures" with the mouse, the same mouse that is constantly moving at all times? I give that a Ctrl+W
An app store? Seriously? I'm not touching that thing with a ten foot pole.
Xbox Videos? Bitch Please.

Ravelle
28-12-2012, 06:30 PM
Big Picture mode requires me to open steam and select Big Picture mode and doesn't list all of my games, I'm also not interested in couch gaming or using Media Center.

mashakos
28-12-2012, 07:08 PM
Big Picture mode requires me to open steam and select Big Picture mode and doesn't list all of my games,

no it doesn't, google "steam big picture mode shortcut"


I'm also not interested in couch gaming or using Media Center.
even so, big picture mode and media center are better UIs than Metro. Can you scroll through Metro tiles using a keyboard, gamepad or remote control? Nope, mouse is your only option. Can you set a tile to open a selection menu of a game and all it's mods? Can you set a tile to run a macro when it is clicked? Less control inputs, lack of customisation of tile functionality, and a cumbersome touch interface adapted to the desktop.

Ravelle
28-12-2012, 07:26 PM
no it doesn't, google "steam big picture mode shortcut"


even so, big picture mode and media center are better UIs than Metro. Can you scroll through Metro tiles using a keyboard, gamepad or remote control? Nope, mouse is your only option. Can you set a tile to open a selection menu of a game and all it's mods? Can you set a tile to run a macro when it is clicked? Less control inputs, lack of customisation of tile functionality, and a cumbersome touch interface adapted to the desktop.

Can you scroll through Metro tiles using a keyboard, gamepad or remote control?
Since when was my post about about coach navigating? I am sitting in front my monitor and keyboard, why on earth would I go through the trouble of plugging in my gamepad or use a remote control just to select a shortcut. Current situation is go with cursor to lower left corner, select icon, bam! and the game is running.

Can you set a tile to open a selection menu of a game and all it's mods?
I just want a screen with my icons, since when did this became something about you want it to be?

Can you set a tile to run a macro when it is clicked? Less control inputs, lack of customisation of tile functionality, and a cumbersome touch interface adapted to the desktop.

I don't need those things and again it seems those are things you want, not me. ;p

mashakos
28-12-2012, 07:44 PM
Can you scroll through Metro tiles using a keyboard, gamepad or remote control?
Since when was my post about about coach navigating? I am sitting in front my monitor and keyboard, why on earth would I go through the trouble of plugging in my gamepad or use a remote control just to select a shortcut. Current situation is go with cursor to lower left corner, select icon, bam! and the game is running.
browsing through a list using directional keys and page up / page down is faster with a keyboard than a mouse. Guess what? You can't use a keyboard in Metro. If you want to start a game that uses a gamepad, it's more convenient to just pick up the game pad browse to the game and start it than mouse over then quickly pick up your gamepad to start playing.



Can you set a tile to open a selection menu of a game and all it's mods?
I just want a screen with my icons, since when did this became something about you want it to be?

Can you set a tile to run a macro when it is clicked? Less control inputs, lack of customisation of tile functionality, and a cumbersome touch interface adapted to the desktop.

I don't need those things and again it seems those are things you want, not me. ;p

No mods, or custom settings? you have a very narrow gaming experience. Too bad.
In any case, once you do want those things, guess what? You will download some utilities to get them. So now you have the bloated Metro UI on top of third party utilities. Congratulations!

Ravelle
29-12-2012, 12:01 AM
Can you explain what you mean exactly with mods and custom settings? If you mean stuff like Skyrim mods, I have quite a lot of them but they don't require to be activated through something every time I start the game.

Also Metro works just fine with a keyboard.

This is my metro from a while back, it comes up whenever I press the windowskey, I move the cursor of my mouse in a matter of seconds to the desired game and the game starts. I don't see the problem here.
http://i.imgur.com/lGMPJ.jpg

soldant
29-12-2012, 12:49 AM
Ravelle: ignore mashakos, he just has a big issue with Win8 and can't consider any possibilities outside of his HTPC domain. The more you argue with him the more he comes up with pointless arguments which aren't even remotely important.


browsing through a list using directional keys and page up / page down is faster with a keyboard than a mouse. Guess what? You can't use a keyboard in Metro
Firstly, browsing through a list with a mouse is MUCH faster than using a keyboard. Secondly, you can navigate tiles with the keyboard. I can even navigate inside Metro apps with my keyboard if I want to, but it's so inferior to using a mouse that you'd be mad to try it.

If you don't like Metro UI that's fine, I don't use most of the Metro apps on my desktop and like Ravelle just treat it as a kind of desktop. But at least stop deliberately misrepresenting things by saying things like "you can't even use a keyboard in Metro OOOOOMG."

mashakos
29-12-2012, 11:16 AM
Firstly, browsing through a list with a mouse is MUCH faster than using a keyboard.
Dragging with a mouse for 5 minutes is faster than pressing L on a keyboard to get to the 350th entry starting with L. Uh huh.
Fail.


Secondly, you can navigate tiles with the keyboard. I can even navigate inside Metro apps with my keyboard if I want to, but it's so inferior to using a mouse that you'd be mad to try it.
I doubt it's as seamless as you make it out to be when scrolling through panes requires me to drag with the mouse rather than, you know, the obvious scroll wheel.

mashakos
29-12-2012, 11:17 AM
This is my metro from a while back, it comes up whenever I press the windowskey, I move the cursor of my mouse in a matter of seconds to the desired game and the game starts. I don't see the problem here.


lol, when you have like 15 items even DOS is a great UI.

soldant
29-12-2012, 11:57 AM
Dragging with a mouse for 5 minutes is faster than pressing L on a keyboard to get to the 350th entry starting with L. Uh huh.
Fail.
So what, ignoring the fact that you can't just click L or even after pressing L have to scroll through items you don't want to get to what you do want? Really? The keyboard can be faster for some things, but you're grasping at straws here.


I doubt it's as seamless as you make it out to be when scrolling through panes requires me to drag with the mouse rather than, you know, the obvious scroll wheel.
My scroll wheel works fine in Metro, you must be doing something wrong.

mashakos
29-12-2012, 01:05 PM
So what, ignoring the fact that you can't just click L or even after pressing L have to scroll through items you don't want to get to what you do want? Really? The keyboard can be faster for some things, but you're grasping at straws here.
You can type a few more characters of the title and it will get you there immediately. it seems that you are the one grasping at straws here.


My scroll wheel works fine in Metro, you must be doing something wrong.
Metro UI and it's support for the scroll wheel is not consistent, this has been demonstrated by quite a few people over the past few months.

Sketch
29-12-2012, 02:52 PM
You can type a few more characters of the title and it will get you there immediately. it seems that you are the one grasping at straws here.


This is how it works in Metro, too.

mashakos
29-12-2012, 03:07 PM
This is how it works in Metro, too.

are you referring to the search bar?

Sketch
29-12-2012, 05:26 PM
I think a search bar appears, but all I do is press the letter while on the metro dashboard and it does exactly what you described.

mashakos
29-12-2012, 05:34 PM
I think a search bar appears, but all I do is press the letter while on the metro dashboard and it does exactly what you described.

in any case, the search bar is not what I'm referring to.

Sketch
29-12-2012, 06:01 PM
It provides exactly the same functionality though.

mashakos
29-12-2012, 08:07 PM
It provides exactly the same functionality though.

no, that actually takes more time.

Sketch
29-12-2012, 08:16 PM
No it doesn't...

mashakos
29-12-2012, 08:19 PM
No it doesn't...

you don't know what I'm talking about. I looked a bit on youtube but couldn't find a demo of what I'm referring to, so I guess you will just have to disagree with me.

Anyway, if you don't know that there are better ways to use a UI, stick with Win8.

soldant
29-12-2012, 11:52 PM
You can type a few more characters of the title and it will get you there immediately. it seems that you are the one grasping at straws here.
Nope, you are. Nobody in their right mind would argue that the keyboard is the fastest way to do things. We developed GUIs for a reason.


Metro UI and it's support for the scroll wheel is not consistent, this has been demonstrated by quite a few people over the past few months.
Nope, pretty consistent here. During the release previews there were issues with the scroll wheel but the biggest complaint people seem to have about the scroll wheel in Metro has nothing to do with the scroll wheel and everything to do with Metro apps scrolling left and right, not up and down.

digirob10
30-12-2012, 11:55 PM
What an intense debate i'm still not sold at Windows 8 yet

soldant
31-12-2012, 04:12 AM
What an intense debate i'm still not sold at Windows 8 yet
Then don't get it, nobody's forcing you to get it. But if you think Microsoft will drop Metro/Modern/whatever for Windows 9, guess again.

mashakos
31-12-2012, 09:24 AM
Nope, you are. Nobody in their right mind would argue that the keyboard is the fastest way to do things. We developed GUIs for a reason.
are you kidding me?! Dragging with a mouse is FASTER than a single page down button press? Scrolling to the 300th item on a long list, is faster than typing the first two letters on a keyboard??

I am not going to even bother replying to you on this matter. Do your homework or we're done here.

Space Indaver
31-12-2012, 09:41 AM
I use the keyboard to launch most programs and find most commonly used files...

"[Win], not, [return]" is a faster way of opening Notepad/sticky notes than minimising windows and moving my mouse to a shortcut.

kinglog
31-12-2012, 07:01 PM
Yes - keyboard is almost always much faster - just a steeper, non-intuitive learning curve. This is why we still have keyboard shortcuts.

Bhazor
01-01-2013, 03:04 AM
mashakos abbreviates Microsoft to M$ and insists that quality is entirely dependent on what coding language you use.

Why are you even trying to argue with him?

soldant
01-01-2013, 03:40 AM
Yes - keyboard is almost always much faster - just a steeper, non-intuitive learning curve. This is why we still have keyboard shortcuts.
Except for a lot of things we don't. Some things work fine from a command line, lots of other things don't. It's easier to hit CTRL+C than right click and hit Copy, but try selecting the 5th to 8th word in the 28th line of your document with a mouse and a keyboard and tell me which one is faster.

kinglog
01-01-2013, 04:13 AM
I would probably use the keyboard for that, but if I wanted to select the 5th, 7th, and 9th words mouse would be faster. I was responding to the "nobody in their right mind would argue keyboard is faster" rather than claiming keyboards uber alles. Happy to use both.

soldant
01-01-2013, 05:41 AM
I would probably use the keyboard for that, but if I wanted to select the 5th, 7th, and 9th words mouse would be faster. I was responding to the "nobody in their right mind would argue keyboard is faster" rather than claiming keyboards uber alles. Happy to use both.
Oh shit, just realised I didn't add "always" to that post like I did with my other one on page 7.

My point was supposed to be that the keyboard may be faster at some things but the mouse is a lot faster at others. There's no way for example that I'd want to browse this web page with a keyboard for example, or tab through a long list that I can't search through. Mashakos just keeps changing his example to try to suit his own nonsense.

Boris
02-01-2013, 03:25 PM
Yeah, he does that. And when you call him out on his bullshit he doesn't respond.

On the mouse/keyboard thing: They both have their strengths. Depending on how quick you are with a keyboard and what the default location of your hands is, a keyboard can be a real timesaver. If you're a programmer or writer and your hands are on the keyboard anyway, you can select a few words on a line faster with the keyboard than with the mouse. I tend to keep my hands on the keyboard, so I'm very fast with it.
If you tend to keep your hand on the mouse, that will probably make the mouse faster for you.

Chorltonwheelie
07-01-2013, 05:17 PM
To answer the OP.

I'm happy with Win7 on my rig. However, I was intrigued by Win8 so I installed it on my kids laptop (hehe!) to see how they got on with it and have a dabble myself.

They took to it like ducks to water with absolutely no moaning. They could get it to sit up and beg within half an hour. Anything they did before (in win7) they could do now and then some. They're 9 and 11 by the way.
The only problem encountered was when we shoved a DVD in to shut them up. No out of the box support. We quickly downloaded VLC and hey presto! They later worked out how to install WMC for freemans themselves.

I downloaded a couple of older games of Steam to see how it went and it's all tickety-boo. Great to use...sorry Abe.

I'll be upgrading asap. hth.

Rath
08-01-2013, 01:02 AM
Right, so if I'm planning on getting a wholly new machine later this year that will have an Intel processor and an nVidia GPU that will be primarily for gaming but also some 3D modelling, on a single monitor, am I better off getting Windows 8 or sticking with 7?

soldant
08-01-2013, 01:37 AM
Right, so if I'm planning on getting a wholly new machine later this year that will have an Intel processor and an nVidia GPU that will be primarily for gaming but also some 3D modelling, on a single monitor, am I better off getting Windows 8 or sticking with 7?
Honestly, it doesn't matter. The desktop mode is the same, the only real difference is that the Start menu is now a full screen. Once you're on the desktop it's just a faster Windows 7. If you're that worried you can stay with 7, but if not you can get 8. It took me maybe a day to adapt.

The only suggestion I have is to pin Control Panel to the Start screen.

Eric
08-01-2013, 01:39 AM
Get Windows 8, it's cheap right now, gaming performance is at least as good as 7. Use savings on better RAM or something.

harhis23
14-01-2013, 07:21 PM
So far, I'm enjoying Windows 8.. I think the occasional lags in my laptop when i was still using Win 7 are now gone. I love the UI and it made my laptop faster and more responsive.

Nalano
15-01-2013, 01:45 AM
I have a Lumia 710 and what is this

larrylongbottom
15-03-2013, 05:36 PM
not the best for a multi monitor set up, crap pops up all over the place.

but gotta say nice n cheap n very smooth

lordcooper
18-03-2013, 09:48 PM
As far as I can tell it has nothing extra that I want, and a load of things I don't.

TheIronSky
18-03-2013, 10:32 PM
not the best for a multi monitor set up, crap pops up all over the place.

but gotta say nice n cheap n very smooth

Not sure if this was innuendo was intended. This sounds like a review someone would give for a pack of condoms down at the drug store.

Regardless, I don't see Windows 8 being an option for high performance machines. I get that Microsoft is trying to appeal to this business crowd that prefers ease of use and no-nonsense interfaces, but what does that do for games? I can't see myself playing a game on a touchscreen or writing something on a tablet. I have enough difficulty playing my NEO-GEO games on an emulator using my iPhone. Despite having the ability to switch to a more familiar desktop with just a few clicks, why wouldn't I just stick with Windows 7? How could I benefit from Windows 8? Doesn't seem necessary.

Chorltonwheelie
19-03-2013, 05:58 PM
Windows 8 is faster than Windows 7.
I particularly notice it running audio production bits n bobs but games will benefit as well.

Shooop
19-03-2013, 09:34 PM
You asked a question in your thread's title but have already made the decision.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Black_Lock.png

rasatouche
05-04-2013, 04:37 PM
Got a free key from work (winner!), had it on my main rig since launch time, Win 8 is just ... so goddamn fast. Boot time is just crazy, metro is total garbage though, especially if I switch my screens into a surround setup to play a game, it just breaks completely. But at least you can fix it so you never have to see it, and still have a start button, thanks classic start button! So you basically have windows 8 speed with windows 7 UI, awesome. I personally haven't even seen the metro interface since about a week after installing it, so I don't know what anyone is complaining about, I mean it's a PC, if you don't like how something works, you just goddamn change it.

Jambe
09-04-2013, 12:39 AM
Metro is great as a touch interface. I like it in Windows Phone (though I'm an Android user myself). I used to scoff at the idea of touching a laptop screen (I'm pretty OCD about display-smudging), but after I played with an Asus Vivobook, I'm a fan. I found it easy and straightforward to use, and the desktop is still right there if you want to get into more a traditional workflow.

Kyndylan
09-04-2013, 12:37 PM
Just built a new PC, and took the Windows 8 plunge. I think it's great, to be honest (although some of that will be down to having a much faster machine - I haven't compared it like for like on the same hardware).

I think it looks nicer and is easier to use in many ways (new copy and paste manager, new task manager). I don't miss the start menu - I just hit the Windows key, type the first few letters of whatever I'm looking for and hit enter. That aside, I never even see the start screen/metro interface. I go to the desktop as soon as I've booted, and don't leave it. What's not to like?

MeltdownInteractiveMedia
12-04-2013, 06:59 PM
Once you get used to it, it's pretty cool. My advice to you is to learn all the keyboard shortcuts. The quick windows key search is awesome with the toggles for programs and settings etc.

WARNING : DO NOT USE SKYPE THAT COMES WITH WINDOWS 8, IT IS A BUGGY MESS OF CRAP. Uninstall it and install the regular version.

TutorIndia
13-04-2013, 02:24 PM
I think that I'm gonna stay on Win7 , it's still the best of all. For my opinion, I don't like the new style. It looks like a tablet...
Well, I can't change minds of people who want it.

apricotsoup
13-04-2013, 04:06 PM
I have windows 8, I boot straight into the desktop view and thus never ever see the metro interface.

I've also installed a startbar thing so functionality is back to normal, it's basically like a faster windows 7 now with a few extra nice features in the file explorer side of things.

Ragnar
19-04-2013, 05:47 PM
So what exactly is the problem with Windows 8 and triple-monitor setups? I'm happily running 7 atm, but was planning a new build in a couple months and considering moving to 8. Should I avoid it and stick with 7?

Konstantinov
20-04-2013, 10:58 AM
I give it a solid 'nay'. I use my PC for gaming. While a lot of others will tend to gripe about a 'useless' slide system and metro ui, my issue is with compatibility. Pretty much out of the numerous games I play, whether they will run on Windows 8 with or without tweaking is a crapshoot. I'm not sure if this has improved with patches and the like, but until a few weeks after the first service pack comes out, I will wait and see.

I don't care about the new ui, thankfully there are 3rd party programs out there that install in a cinch and make the look and feel of Windows 7 on Windows 8 very convincing.

I should also note that despite the compatibility issues, I had time to give this OS a shot and am convinced that a few things ran faster on Windows 8 than on Windows 7 (which I had a hard time imagining was possible). At any rate, the issues I had with programs (mostly games) not running with or without hair-pulling procedural steps to get them to work was a game-breaker for me. I say again: nay.

Ragnar
21-04-2013, 12:15 AM
Could you tell me some of the games you had problems with? I thought 8 had the same compatibility as 7.

Karuji
21-04-2013, 10:10 PM
Ragnar, Game Maker games don't run in Win8 so you can miss out on some really great stuff (Hotline Miami).

Well that is one of the reasons I am sticking with 7.

Eric
22-04-2013, 01:56 AM
I have no idea about other Game Maker games, but Hotline Miami definitely does work, no need to change compatibility settings either.

soldant
22-04-2013, 03:10 AM
Ragnar, Game Maker games don't run in Win8 so you can miss out on some really great stuff (Hotline Miami). Well that is one of the reasons I am sticking with 7.
Don't know who told you that, but it's absolute rubbish. HLM works fine under Win8 and always did. GM8 and GM Studio games all work fine.

The only GM games that don't work well under the newer Windows are the GM6 games which had a buggy runner, but they won't work under Vista, Win7 or Win8.

Karuji
22-04-2013, 09:51 AM
soldant, I've had a couple of people have an issue with one of the games I am working on with win8. I also remember cactus said something similar at gdc.

soldant
22-04-2013, 12:23 PM
soldant, I've had a couple of people have an issue with one of the games I am working on with win8. I also remember cactus said something similar at gdc.
I'm using GM Studio here on Win8 with no problems, so I don't know what the issue is. GM8 before it was also fine IIRC.
GM7 I'm not too sure about.

Zephro
22-04-2013, 05:53 PM
I have windows 8, I boot straight into the desktop view and thus never ever see the metro interface.

I've also installed a startbar thing so functionality is back to normal, it's basically like a faster windows 7 now with a few extra nice features in the file explorer side of things.

The problem I've found is none of the replacement start bars match my normal workflow. So it just frustrates and annoys me.

AntediluvianArk
23-04-2013, 02:28 AM
So I just quickly skimmed through this thread but I have a couple of questions regarding Windows 8. I am in the process of assembling a new gaming PC. What is the consensus regarding Windows 8 and gaming. Will most contemporary games (e.g. Steam, GamersGate) run on Windows 8 without issue? I believe that GOG.com announced that their entire catalog is 8 compatible so I seem set with my GOG library. Also do programs like Fraps run decently and how are most drivers?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, but I am mainly interested in gaming compatibility. I can deal with the rest: I can learn to live with most any interface, I can unlearn/relearn what I need to to become proficient with working within Windows 8, and so on. I am just hoping for a stable system with some hopeful performance gains that will not conflict with my games or gaming activities.

While I play a lot of indies, I don't really play a lot of obscure games, or freeware. Though I do frequently mod my games utilizing mods from various sources...has anyone had any trouble with modding on Windows 8?

I appreciate any thoughts you have on this topic.

soldant
23-04-2013, 03:31 AM
If it ran on Windows 7, it will run on Windows 8 as a general rule (exceptions are rare, and usually because of bad practices). I haven't had any issues with things running under Windows 8. If your games worked on Win7 they'll work on Win8. Stem runs fine. Mods are totally irrelevant to the OS so no problems there. FRAPS is fine. Drivers are about equal to Win7, there's no leap backwards like there was with Vista (since Vista set the groundwork for future versions). Some obscure hardware may not have support depending on what it but again this is an exception.

I've been running Win8 since day zero, never had an issue with compatibility save for the very early days when some apps got confused over what browser to load - Steam used to be unable to cope with having both a Metro UI and standard desktop browser but this got patched ages ago.

AntediluvianArk
23-04-2013, 03:52 AM
Thanks soldant, this is really helpful. I might just take the plunge with Windows 8 especially due to the low cost of entry this time around. Plus as long as I can keep my older PC running I will have a Windows 7 machine if that is even necessary.

Chorltonwheelie
24-04-2013, 06:52 PM
So, people who have installed it like it and people who spend a lot of time reading on the interwebs don't. Hmmm......

mrpier
24-04-2013, 07:11 PM
I have it installed at work and I don't like it.

roryok
25-04-2013, 12:47 PM
What is the consensus regarding Windows 8 and gaming. Will most contemporary games (e.g. Steam, GamersGate) run on Windows 8 without issue? I believe that GOG.com announced that their entire catalog is 8 compatible so I seem set with my GOG library. Also do programs like Fraps run decently and how are most drivers?

I was dual-booting Win 7 and Win 8 for a while on my games rig, eventually I ditched Windows 7 entirely. 8 is a little bit faster, and it all seems cleaner.

I have yet to find a game that will not run under windows 8. The only piece of any kind of software I've found that doesn't run under windows 8 is ATI Mobility Modder software, which is for modifying ATI drivers so that they work on old mobility cards. Even then, I found a patch that let me run it ok - it just wouldn't run out of the box.

SanguineAngel
25-04-2013, 03:49 PM
I have it installed and I also don't like it.

Except... it is fast and it does appear to run some games that don't run under Win 7. But the Start Menu is totally misplaced on a desktop in my opinion. The workflow associated with operating in the Start Menu and any of the apps just feels totally inadequate for any level of productivity.

I use Classic Shell and I'm pretty much happy as larry though. But that is not an excuse for Win8 and the horrible (in my opinion) start screen.

gundato
25-04-2013, 06:25 PM
To weigh in:

Bought a new laptop a month or two back (I am going to be away from my desktop for a few months, my old laptop is getting somewhat dated, I sold a winRT tablet I got at a conference, I want new shinies, etc) and decided to not reformat it immediately on the grounds that it actually didn't contain much crapware and I have never actually not reformatted a laptop the day it arrived in the mail (Lenovo X230 for those interested)

Win8 with the Start Screen: I hate it. While I acknowledge that I might grow to tolerate it, given time, as it stands I can't find the settings I need (it took far too long to figure out how to install optional updates) and it affects my workflow too much. Nay

Win8 with Start8 (Stardock): I love it. Insanely fast boot times (that may be the laptop...), a MUCH better explorer (the file folder opener thingie), and a pretty nice way to browse available wifi networks. Similar to Windows 7 in that it was basically Vista but with all the stuff I like about Windows done better. Yay

In fact, I am very seriously considering doing a reformat of my desktop to put Win8 on, but I'll probably wait until more is known about Win 8.1 or whatever MS is gonna be selling.

kolossals
25-04-2013, 09:03 PM
NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN!!!
I don't have Win 8, but every single time I tried it (4 times in different pc's), it was an awful and the computer froze and stopped working, so i'm not gonna buy/download/install it.

soldant
26-04-2013, 03:51 AM
In fact, I am very seriously considering doing a reformat of my desktop to put Win8 on, but I'll probably wait until more is known about Win 8.1 or whatever MS is gonna be selling.
It's effectively a minor upgrade on Win 8, with rumours being that if you have Win8 it'll be free. Think "98SE".

If you hope for a Start menu though it's not coming back, they're just going to add a proper button to show the Start screen as opposed to that horrible corner. What we really need is a button for the Charms bar.

Moraven
26-04-2013, 04:32 AM
The charm bar and finding settings options (Pain to find Windows Update, Get into my control panel, and the first time just learning how to shut down) were my initial impressions that were rather annoying. But the boot time on a HDD, snappiness and the Tiles, for a HTPC on older hardware (E8500, HD6870), it runs pretty well. Netflix app works great.

Jambe
26-04-2013, 04:55 AM
I'm more concerned about the publisher hegemony aspect of the Windows Store than I am about the usability thereof. Classic Shell, Start8 et al. fix the latter problem, but there's no simple fix to the former.

Of course, it's not just Microsoft doing this; Apple, Google, Amazon, Valve, Canonical, etc all benefit from being the channel via which people make purchases. If the stuff we're buying wasn't censored, DRMed and/or locked into its ecosystem/codebase of origin, I'd be all for the proliferation of more storefronts. But that's not (usually) the case, unfortunately. GOG and GamersGate are counterexamples, but they're relative rarities in size and frequency.

In my experience across a few dozen unique hardware configurations, Win8 is fine. Classic Shell might be necessary if you're dependent on a desktop usage paradigm, otherwise, not so much.

gundato
26-04-2013, 02:23 PM
It's effectively a minor upgrade on Win 8, with rumours being that if you have Win8 it'll be free. Think "98SE".

If you hope for a Start menu though it's not coming back, they're just going to add a proper button to show the Start screen as opposed to that horrible corner. What we really need is a button for the Charms bar.
Meh. Start8 lets me get rid of the Start Screen (and the corner crap that always just sent me to the wrong screen) AND gives me back the Start Menu. Already paid for it, so I don't mind installing it again.

spacein_vader
26-04-2013, 10:27 PM
I'm more concerned about the publisher hegemony aspect of the Windows Store than I am about the usability thereof. Classic Shell, Start8 et al. fix the latter problem, but there's no simple fix to the former.

That's funny, I can't see either of those in the Windows Store. Surely someone hasn't managed to find a way of developing and releasing applications for Windows 8 without using the MS storefront that quickly.

Oh wait.

Sketch
26-04-2013, 10:59 PM
Eh? Was it ever implied that that would be the case that you couldn't release apps outside the storefront? Serious question, I'm not sure.

soldant
27-04-2013, 01:04 AM
Eh? Was it ever implied that that would be the case that you couldn't release apps outside the storefront? Serious question, I'm not sure.
I think he was referring to the "publisher hegemony" part, which some people keep trying to extend to the classic desktop.

Jambe
27-04-2013, 05:44 AM
I think he was referring to the "publisher hegemony" part, which some people keep trying to extend to the classic desktop.

Hm? Could you expound on that? I must've miscommunicated.

I wasn't commenting on the desktop, I don't think (I'm really tired, so I can't be sure). I was decrying the apparently-increasing "walled-gardens for everyone!" trend among major platform providers. Thank god for the FOSS movement, in other words.

I like the desktop model and dislike siloed data & DRM, but not dogmatically so. If a platform gives you unencumbered access to the tools/media you buy, yay! If you're locked into the company store or your tools/media are permissions nightmares, nay.

This is probably just my version of the common bs-tastic aphorism "they don't make things like they used to", but I can't help but look at the progress of Android & Google Play, iOS, Amazon, Win8 & RT, the various social networks, etc, only to react by shaking my fist and crying, "standards, interoperability, USABILITY!". In the end, though, I'm drowned out by all the capitalism.

... and yet I don't necessarily hate capitalism (or love it). I'm conflicted, you understand. And a poor writer.

I apologize for my wearisome, derailing drivel. <3 you all.

BillButNotBen
04-05-2013, 10:34 AM
I've been using it for about 6 months and I think it's pretty awesome. The only real downside is that the app store is pretty rubbish, but that might not be a downside after all (see below).

The start screen is great if you give it a chance. Performance is nice. Driver support is nice. The explorer and file copy are lovely. The install is very easy and quick. Lots of minor tweaks that make things better. It looks a lot better.
I can't say that I use metro that much, but I use the news and email apps, and it's great to have a nice dashboard of information when you boot up, even if you immediately go to the desktop.
I can't really say that I can see many downsides. Even my wife, who doesn't know much about PCs at all, adjusted to it in about 3 days.


The only piece of any kind of software I've found that doesn't run under windows 8 is ATI Mobility Modder software, which is for modifying ATI drivers so that they work on old mobility cards.

Off topic, but OOOOH!
I'd given up on ever being able to get updated drivers for my laptop's ATI card. That said, so far the windows 8 reference drivers have been working fine. So i'll bookmark that and for now I won't touch anything.


I'm more concerned about the publisher hegemony aspect of the Windows Store than I am about the usability thereof. Classic Shell, Start8 et al. fix the latter problem, but there's no simple fix to the former.


This was my concern. But thanks to microsoft being crap at things like online stores, and there being no decent things on there, my concern has greatly decreased.
I feel like people's concerns about the interface and people's concerns about the store (eg: Gabe Newell) got conflated into some giant internet viewpoint that win 8 was awful. I've had people who know nothing about it tell me that it's awful. I tend to find most people who hate it haven't actually really tried it.

soldant
04-05-2013, 12:35 PM
I feel like people's concerns about the interface and people's concerns about the store (eg: Gabe Newell) got conflated into some giant internet viewpoint that win 8 was awful. I've had people who know nothing about it tell me that it's awful. I tend to find most people who hate it haven't actually really tried it.
Of course they haven't, they don't want to. Which is fine but some of the FUD is absurd. Gabe Newell's fear-mongering over the Windows Store is absurd but you can see where it's coming from - he's assuming it'll someday be a threat to Steam, which is laughable. Plus it serves as a convenient scapegoat to push us onto the hypothetical SteamOS, which is the same thing except with Steam instead of the Windows Store. Progress!

The UI is still a pain though, we need a button for the Charms bar.

Jambe
04-05-2013, 06:09 PM
Gabe Newell's fear-mongering over the Windows Store is absurd but you can see where it's coming from - he's assuming it'll someday be a threat to Steam, which is laughable. Plus it serves as a convenient scapegoat to push us onto the hypothetical SteamOS, which is the same thing except with Steam instead of the Windows Store. Progress!

Newell's FUD-peddling to some degree, but I wouldn't say it's completely absurd or that the threat is "laughable". It's unlikely in the short term, but given Microsoft's lurching business changes in pursuit of a slice of the lucrative curated storefront pie, I don't think it's an impossibility. Some Microsoft executives surely want Windows gaming to behave more like iOS gaming (with attendant cuts to Microsoft for advertising, hosting, cert/approval, etc, which would cut into Steam's business). Microsoft's (terrible) track record of promoting Windows as a gaming platform is not reassuring, nor is the inexorable increase in uniformity between Xbox services and Microsoft's preferred Windows gaming experience.

I just don't want the Windows Store or the associated "we are gatekeepers for good apps" mentality to gain enough traction to threaten the traditionally-open desktop computing paradigm on Windows; I want future iterations of Windows to look more like 8 than RT. I've similar concerns about Steam and their hamfisted Greenlight endeavor: artificial bottlenecks on availability hamper the variety of the platform. It's arguable that you gain a more consistent experience in so doing (if the cert/approval process is good), but I still don't think that's an appropriate mentality for such high-volume generalized stores, and especially not for operating systems as a whole. It seems there's a growing contingent at Microsoft that envisions Windows as something of a store in and of itself, but I'd rather they think of it as privately-built civic infrastructure.

fwiw I like Valve's Linux initiative, but I think they'd seem more genuine if they brought their sales model more in line with the spirit of FOSS (i.e. be more like GOG and highlight DRM-free games in the store, promote "DRM-free" as better than the alternative, stop bullshitting about CEG not being DRM (http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/publishingservices.php), stop DRMing their own SP games (https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/), etc). Personally, this strikes me as a great way to differentiate their store from the majority of other digital publishers. Demagogue things up a bit and appeal to many peoples' freedom-loving tendencies. Depict closed systems as elitist stiflers of free-market vibrancy. Steam: Capitalism Democratized!

lol


But yes, Windows 8 is fine. I wouldn't call it a compelling or necessary upgrade to Windows 7 at the $75-95 I've seen it selling for, but it's certainly not bad, and I wouldn't put 7 on a new machine if I was buying a new OS for it.

Sakkura
04-05-2013, 06:53 PM
Of course they haven't, they don't want to. Which is fine but some of the FUD is absurd. Gabe Newell's fear-mongering over the Windows Store is absurd but you can see where it's coming from - he's assuming it'll someday be a threat to Steam, which is laughable. Plus it serves as a convenient scapegoat to push us onto the hypothetical SteamOS, which is the same thing except with Steam instead of the Windows Store. Progress!

The UI is still a pain though, we need a button for the Charms bar.
It's a very real threat. Microsoft are already referring to classic applications as "legacy", which means something you want to kill off as soon as possible. They're clearly heading for an Apple-style walled garden. The question is whether they'll meet enough resistance to dissuade them from such plans.

BillButNotBen
06-05-2013, 10:31 AM
Of course they haven't, they don't want to. Which is fine but some of the FUD is absurd. Gabe Newell's fear-mongering over the Windows Store is absurd but you can see where it's coming from - he's assuming it'll someday be a threat to Steam, which is laughable.


Newell's FUD-peddling to some degree, but I wouldn't say it's completely absurd or that the threat is "laughable". It's unlikely in the short term, but given Microsoft's lurching business changes in pursuit of a slice of the lucrative curated storefront pie, I don't think it's an impossibility. Some Microsoft executives surely want Windows gaming to behave more like iOS gaming (with attendant cuts to Microsoft for advertising, hosting, cert/approval, etc, which would cut into Steam's business). Microsoft's (terrible) track record of promoting Windows as a gaming platform is not reassuring, nor is the inexorable increase in uniformity between Xbox services and Microsoft's preferred Windows gaming experience.

I just don't want the Windows Store or the associated "we are gatekeepers for good apps" mentality to gain enough traction to threaten the traditionally-open desktop computing paradigm on Windows; I want future iterations of Windows to look more like 8 than RT.


It's a very real threat. Microsoft are already referring to classic applications as "legacy", which means something you want to kill off as soon as possible. They're clearly heading for an Apple-style walled garden. The question is whether they'll meet enough resistance to dissuade them from such plans.

I think that the store risk IS the only genuine complaint that can be levelled at Windows 8. It is rather worrying that they've started to refer to software as 'legacy apps'. But it's also pretty hard to imagine the metro apps ever really supplanting the desktop apps. I was worried about it, and I guess it could happen and might be the start of a slippery slope.

But right now the metro apps are so much more lightweight than the 'legacy' apps. they work great for things like news/twitter/etc.. , but they don't come close for complex things like photoshop, etc.. Which is to be expected, as smartphone/tablet/metro apps are designed with a totally different mindset and design goals to desktop apps.

So, as of right now, they work quite well in combination - removing the 'light' apps to a more convenient location to make room for the 'heavy apps'.

And as of right now, there aren't many decent apps anyway, so I can't see it taking off. (especially based on the low number of reviews for most apps and the huge amount of junk apps).


But yes, Windows 8 is fine. I wouldn't call it a compelling or necessary upgrade to Windows 7 at the $75-95 I've seen it selling for, but it's certainly not bad, and I wouldn't put 7 on a new machine if I was buying a new OS for it.

That's the thing that's confusing/annoying. If there was a decent debate on the risks of a walled garden store then that would be one thing, but as the whole thing just seems to be people trashing it cos it's different, it's just a waste of time.


The UI is still a pain though, we need a button for the Charms bar.

I haven't found a need for one so far, why do you think it's needed?

It also sounds like they're considering putting a start button back for 8.1. I'm a bit torn on that. I guess a button gives a nice target for people who don't know about it, but it seems totally un-needed as there is basically still a button there in windows 8.

soldant
06-05-2013, 10:47 AM
It's a very real threat. Microsoft are already referring to classic applications as "legacy", which means something you want to kill off as soon as possible. They're clearly heading for an Apple-style walled garden. The question is whether they'll meet enough resistance to dissuade them from such plans.
They'd effectively wipe out the majority of their software library and render the OS useless overnight, they're not going to move towards that model. Metro languishes with pathetic app support which shows little sign of changing. Look at the Windows Mobile/Phone platform - it never took off, and Metro is effectively its own platform tacked onto a popular desktop OS. The only person who seriously believes WinRT will be the path of now and forever is Paul Thurrot, and even then that was back in 2011. MS won't lock down the desktop. Even Apple haven't done it yet, and they're the ones in prime position for it (their current solution is much the same as the Windows SmartScreen nonsense that nobody enables).

Gabe is stoking the fires you move all of us onto his platform. That's the real reason for the complaining - it's a perfect opportunity to scare people into moving to another platform. That too could result in a whole lot of nothing if nobody bothers to support it, and unless Valve maintain a very stable OS there's no danger of a massive shift to Linux anytime soon.

Jambe
06-05-2013, 03:51 PM
They'd effectively wipe out the majority of their software library and render the OS useless overnight, they're not going to move towards that model. Metro languishes with pathetic app support which shows little sign of changing. Look at the Windows Mobile/Phone platform - it never took off, and Metro is effectively its own platform tacked onto a popular desktop OS. The only person who seriously believes WinRT will be the path of now and forever is Paul Thurrot, and even then that was back in 2011. MS won't lock down the desktop. Even Apple haven't done it yet, and they're the ones in prime position for it (their current solution is much the same as the Windows SmartScreen nonsense that nobody enables).

The majority of PC users (in my experience servicing and selling PCs) use computers as a web portal and AV player. A smaller percentage use dedicated tax, spreadsheet and word processing software. A smaller percentage still play non-browser games. Fewer do photo & video processing. An even-smaller crowd do audio editing, 2D/3D asset-creation, etc. In my estimation 3/5ths of users are in the first category, 1/5th in the second, and the rest in the latter three. Then there's the cyclical business market.

Why is uptake of low-powered portal-like mobile devices increasing while PC sales plateau or trend down? It's because most people in western markets already have a mostly-disused PC, and most people in emerging markets don't want what PCs provide and generally can't afford it anyway. That's why MS is trying what Apple's trying, namely moving away from the general-use and/or power-user demographic and toward the more profitable "app-store" type market. MS will inevitably try to more closely ape Apple (and Google, ftm). I'm sure necktied MS executives regularly cast a green-eyed gaze over Apple's margins. And there's shareholder value to be increased...


Gabe is stoking the fires you move all of us onto his platform. That's the real reason for the complaining - it's a perfect opportunity to scare people into moving to another platform. That too could result in a whole lot of nothing if nobody bothers to support it, and unless Valve maintain a very stable OS there's no danger of a massive shift to Linux anytime soon.

Linux is hardly Gabe Newell's platform. I like Steam well enough, but I think their stance on DRM is extremely disingenuous and I don't like how they artificially gate the platform.

Anyway, it's at least conceivable that concerted uptake of Linux could lead to its becoming a viable alternative to Windows, in which case everybody but Microsoft would profit (and Steam wouldn't magically be the only way to get Linux games). Then we wouldn't have the extra OS cost on top of DIY PCs, Genuine Windows all other such craptastic validation would disappear, OEMs and big institutions wouldn't have to deal with tedious volume licensing, and the bullshitty draconian rigmarole of MS audits would die, as it damn-well should.

... one can hope.

Boris
22-05-2013, 07:59 AM
Well, I had a weird problem on my laptop (froze on battery power, not on AC, but only in Windows and not in Linux), so I decided to reinstall it. Since I have a MSDN-AA copy of Windows 8, I'll try that out again.

Maybe it's better on laptops.

Internet
31-05-2013, 07:38 PM
Anyway, it's at least conceivable that concerted uptake of Linux could lead to its becoming a viable alternative to Windows, in which case everybody but Microsoft would profit (and Steam wouldn't magically be the only way to get Linux games). Then we wouldn't have the extra OS cost on top of DIY PCs, Genuine Windows all other such craptastic validation would disappear, OEMs and big institutions wouldn't have to deal with tedious volume licensing, and the bullshitty draconian rigmarole of MS audits would die, as it damn-well should.

... one can hope.

Absolutely all of this and more. We might even get less software patent wars. And the biggest part about a massive shift to Linux would be that when one person does a bug-fix on the software that they sell, there's a substantial chance that it could benefit everyone. A constant churn of updates incorporated from hundreds of motivated large companies would be very, very nice.

Rickgeneral
02-06-2013, 12:38 AM
I do hope that Linux makes it to the top of PC gaming, but until then I'll stick with Win 7. Win 8 is only suitable for touch screen? So everything is big on the screen and the icons are large?

And I'll be really upset if they have a Directx12 only for Windows 8.

gundato
02-06-2013, 11:40 PM
I do hope that Linux makes it to the top of PC gaming, but until then I'll stick with Win 7. Win 8 is only suitable for touch screen? So everything is big on the screen and the icons are large?

And I'll be really upset if they have a Directx12 only for Windows 8.
I wouldn't go that far.

There are definitely a lot of questionable design choices that are touch-oriented, but it also works well enough with a mouse and keyboard. There is a lot of wasted screen space, but the biggest issues are just that it is different from previous generations of Windows.

FriendlyFire
02-06-2013, 11:46 PM
DX11.1 is already only for Windows 8, and they've introduced a new WDDM with the OS, so it's almost guaranteed that any future version of DirectX will be Windows 8 and above only.

Rickgeneral
04-06-2013, 04:39 PM
DX11.1 is already only for Windows 8, and they've introduced a new WDDM with the OS, so it's almost guaranteed that any future version of DirectX will be Windows 8 and above only.

I found a post somewhere that there will be no DX12, because the techonology is just obsolete or not worth the effort.

BillButNotBen
09-06-2013, 10:34 AM
Ok. I've been using it for about 6 months now and I still think it's pretty great. Most of the 'issues' people have with it are total non-issues if you actually use it.

I have run into TWO issues with it though (which i suspect may be related):

1 - Metro apps seem to launch very slowly at times, and never speedily. For those others who have win8, how long does it take to launch the news app? It can take from 15 seconds to over a minute for me.

2 - AFAIK older ATI mobile graphics cards have big problems with OpenGL. The only win8 graphics driver is the one from Microsoft, which seems to be bugged/missing OpenGL and doesn't look likely to get an update. Mobile graphics driver updates have always been a pain in the butt, but the solutions/patchers I know of don't work on win8.

There may be a solution, but I couldn't find one in the limited amount of time i had to google the issue. So I can't play Frozen Synapse (and possibly other openGL games).

So, if you have a laptop with an older ATI card then I recommend a little testing/research before upgrading to win8. Other that that, go for it if you want.

anton
08-07-2013, 10:34 AM
Now I have some doubts about Win8. I'm used to WinXP and am not sure that the Win8 version will be much more useful for me. I've also heard it has some bugs that have not been resolved yet.

Sparkasaurusmex
08-07-2013, 02:27 PM
Hell if XP does what you need why upgrade?

Boris
08-07-2013, 10:01 PM
Ongoing security patches?