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Nullkigan
04-12-2012, 09:10 PM
No, we don't want to use Teamspeak 3.
No, we don't want to add a monoculture site with no prospects for growth to our browsing habits.
No, we don't think ferstaberinde is more relevant than Rock Paper Shotgun (or for that matter, Herosquad.org which is used for the non-ip addresses).
No, we don't want to add skype as a requirement out of nowhere.
No, we don't think the Folk brand, which has no presence outside of the Folk site, is stronger.
No, we don't want to be told exactly what to do by a small band who don't take any outside interests into account.
No, we don't want to cut ourselves off from being part of a larger multi-game community.
No, we don't think Tigershark's heavy breathing is funny.
No, we don't think the Social Agrarian Utopia thing makes any fucking sense whatsoever, and it's not funny trying to politicise a group like that?

No, we don't think cutting spending will help the deficit!


And so on?

You're really just going to roll over and let them do what they want?

Is it because they "host" the sessions? Take leadership roles? Donate more to server upkeep? Make missions? (Probably, yes)

Siddin
04-12-2012, 09:48 PM
My sarcasm detector doesn't work on this. I think it's broken.

fer
04-12-2012, 09:59 PM
Man, I hate that Fer dude.

Siddin
04-12-2012, 10:05 PM
Man, I hate that Fer dude.

He's such an ass, really. And those glasses. Not to mention his face is everywhere now that our logo changed.

Wolfenswan
04-12-2012, 10:07 PM
It's like a north korean really but with more homo eroticism.

ON TOPIC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCLs0jv_Efk

Wafflynumber
04-12-2012, 10:11 PM
#stopfer2012

fer
04-12-2012, 10:14 PM
He's such an ass, really. And those glasses. Not to mention his face is everywhere now that our logo changed.

I heard that if you feel in any way traumatised by having witnessed that image in-game, you can apply to have all your counseling costs paid for from a central fund. My claim form is in the post already.

Draakon
04-12-2012, 10:15 PM
A civil war, eh? FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!

StrangLove
04-12-2012, 10:20 PM
Check out my New Model Army:

2265

Har har har civil war jokes.

Novel
04-12-2012, 10:21 PM
Who is this?

Bodge
04-12-2012, 10:30 PM
Hold on who are you?

thekev506
04-12-2012, 11:12 PM
Well that was just plain rude.

IceRaiser
05-12-2012, 12:44 AM
Donate more to server upkeep?

I'm not Folk.

ARPS fo' life!

Phalanx
05-12-2012, 01:23 AM
I'm not quite sure what's going on here but it's making cats fall out of the sky so you guys should probably stop.

kataras
05-12-2012, 10:17 AM
So is this for real? Cause it sure sounds like it.

JimTheDog
05-12-2012, 11:35 AM
Taking it seriously for a moment? Yeah, when I played ARMA (I should get back into that again, but scheduling started eating at my time for regular play) I preferred the RPS sessions. I like mumble, I think that the running joke of the glorious communist republic is stale as hell and forces people into playing with AKs and shit all the time, closing off opportunities for using a broader spectrum of kit, and I think half the strength of the Arma people I hang around with/met was that I could play other games with them too occasionally, like Wargame: EE and Mechwarrior and stuff.

Of course there's also a place to go serious MilSim with Arma, it's a game built for that, but I don't think the structure of ARPS precluded having a 'serious' night every once in awhile by any means.

As a guy who has drifted away from the ARMA stuff, hearing that FOLK is taking over doesn't really encourage me to join back in. FOLK does great work and all, but I feel like I can dip in once in awhile with ARPS and take it casually. I don't feel nearly so welcome around FOLK nights.

Black Mamba
05-12-2012, 11:46 AM
This wrong. Folk ain't taking over by any means, we just move all comms to TS.
Regarding AKs an shit, the more people make missions, the more stuff we can play with. We've been regularly playing blufor for a while.
Other games? People are the same, you can still play other games. Matter of fact, thee's a Wargame:EE session being planned right now.
And FOLK, milsim? Seriously? Anyway, ARPS sessions haven't been that different from sunday sessions for a while, they're still casual.

kataras
05-12-2012, 11:51 AM
So I guess I will chip in if there is a discussion going:

Although I would not put it in such strong terms, I also miss the more 'relaxed' TT nights. I think it was great to have a 'fooling around' night and a more 'serious' one. The last few months I had the feeling things were getting too serious, with SLs micro-managing etc and honestly it was spoiling my fun. The fact that I can only stay for about an hour and a half (and of course that is my problem) did not help much either, as that meant that I was staying for a maximum of two missions (with all the planning etc). In the end I decided, I would rather play something else for that 1.5 hours but I wasn't gonna complain about it as it was due to my limited time and also I can understand that people who make missions and put in their time and effort have a certain direction in mind. As I did not have the time or willingness to get involved in the running of things, I could not really complain about it.

I can also understand the 'being cut off' from the rest of the community argument, although I guess that applies to newer players, as I played and still play other games with people I met in ARPS.

So this is my 2 cents and it's not meant as a criticism of anything or anyone.

JimTheDog
05-12-2012, 12:21 PM
This wrong. Folk ain't taking over by any means, we just move all comms to TS.
Regarding AKs an shit, the more people make missions, the more stuff we can play with. We've been regularly playing blufor for a while.
Other games? People are the same, you can still play other games. Matter of fact, thee's a Wargame:EE session being planned right now.
And FOLK, milsim? Seriously? Anyway, ARPS sessions haven't been that different from sunday sessions for a while, they're still casual.

I can only speak from my own experience. You seem to have had a very different experience to mine. As for W:EE, I've seen nothing about it either in the forums here or on the RPS steam group for it, so, I hope those plans get posted somewhere I see them so I can see if I can join in!

Harlander
05-12-2012, 12:30 PM
I also miss the more 'relaxed' TT nights. I think it was great to have a 'fooling around' night and a more 'serious' one

Funny thing is, TT started as the "more serious" night to the rest of the time's "arsing around".

I do share the feeling that TT's got a bit too serious these days. On the other hand I don't know if you can both have a relaxed approach and ever get any missions started, let alone succeeded, with the number of people that turn up these days.

kataras
05-12-2012, 12:52 PM
Funny thing is, TT started as the "more serious" night to the rest of the time's "arsing around".

I do share the feeling that TT's got a bit too serious these days. On the other hand I don't know if you can both have a relaxed approach and ever get any missions started, let alone succeeded, with the number of people that turn up these days.

Yeap that's actually a fair point!

Super‹
05-12-2012, 02:47 PM
I think this is being blown out of proportion. If people are so desperate for more casual session then either hang around for the post TT shenanigans or organise lets say a Thursday cock around session.

Wolfenswan
05-12-2012, 03:09 PM
The problem with "less serious" is that it more often than not descends into being disruptive and disrespectful towards the fun of the other players. My perception of both sessions is that the majority enjoys the approach sundays and tuesdays have. The server is open 24/7 and if people desire a "crash helis and blow shit up" session it would be a great idea to get it organized so there's room for itching that certain scratch.

Jim:
The W:EE session is being planned on the Folk ARPS board, I've opened the thread there as small sessions on this board tend to get drowned

JimTheDog
05-12-2012, 05:48 PM
I think this is being blown out of proportion. If people are so desperate for more casual session then either hang around for the post TT shenanigans or organise lets say a Thursday cock around session.

Fair enough, but it' just been my experience that it was harder to get casually involved with FOLK, as in, 'Get involved without knowing much, don't feel too stressed out, take it casually'. Crashing helis and stuff, no, not what I was talking about. With all the FOLK stuff I just didn't feel exactly welcome to dip my toe in if it's just once in forever, you know?



Jim:
The W:EE session is being planned on the Folk ARPS board, I've opened the thread there as small sessions on this board tend to get drowned

Again, fair enough. But I'm just saying that this is somewhat symptomatic of what's been brought up -- the only place I know to check for stuff on W:EE is in the thread over here and on the Steam Groups. Both the general RPS group and RPStalin have been quiet.

Maybe, if threads for smaller sessions are getting drowned, rather than taking stuff off to forums not necessarily everyone knows about (like me), some other solution could be found like a new subdirectory in Game Clubs And General Sociability, or a google calendar somewhere.

Nullkigan
05-12-2012, 08:30 PM
OK, now that I’m not coming straight out of a terrible session of arma (a completely wasted 40 minutes on the first mission, and after a slow start the second fizzled out ended up a directionless clusterfuck that had to be called despite a huge number of players still being up) this bears some further explanation.

It was NOT about Fer. Sorry, Fer. I went too far with naming him instead of saying “no2folkarps”, because you are the effective leader and thus a visible target. (Also easier to type.) Whilst I disagree with him on numerous issues, few of them relating to anything of import to other people. I respect his strong interpersonal skills, organisational ability, drive to push things forwards and the stamina to keep doing so for years.

It was NOT about stopping Folk-ARPS. I don’t play arma much anymore and thus don’t have a say in how the people who do organise themselves or what they call themselves or anything like that.

It WAS about releasing frustrations over there basically being no way for people to say “no, I don’t think this is a good idea”. So it WAS about the concerns that people like Jim and Kataras have posted, in a much more serious and eloquent manner than I managed last night.

And I DO most definitely disagree with some of the structural changes – purely Folk folks have long made up a tiny proportion of the combined crowd, yet the group will move entirely to those forums, switch over to TS3 (which we’ve had huge arguments over before and the general consensus was always stick with mumble). There’s also the move to Skype instead of Steam Chats. At that point the balance has switched from being “Folk and RPS play together”, past where we ended up with “Folk runs sessions where RPS form the majority of the playerbase” to “RPS is an advertising post for Folk”.

The changes are presented as not mandatory but they kind of are. How many times has someone with an unrecognised name joined the server and been told to register / post / getonsteam / getonmumble / etc? It’s the way things (with varying levels of rudeness and demanding behaviour) work. Hell, we used to have threads on these forums for Folk nights, but those got stopped because people preferred using them to the ones on the Folk boards.

That’s not a merger, that’s a takeover. (Perhaps there is no way to have a merger at all)

The first I heard of it was not when someone approached me to say “we’re making some changes”. It was when I caught up with the group after what I thought at the time was a major security breach of the server. My name is on the contract for the hardware, so if it ends up being used for something nefarious I’m the one who gets in trouble. When I made enquiries things eventually got explained – access had been given to more people so the few who originally had access didn’t have to put up with constant requests to fix fucked up mission uploads. Harakka, saint that he is, started working on a technical solution such that box access would be less necessary, and that was/is one of his goals under Folk-ARPS.

I was never directly involved in any discussion about the future of the group, and I avoided getting myself involved because arma and steam chat stopped being fun for me. At the same time I never felt I was asked for my opinion on anything despite being tied into the structure of the group, and when I DID volunteer concerns or suggestions they were generally quashed. When I pointed out that we were going to be asking for donations immediately after the changeover and that this would be a breach of faith against those donating there was eventually some response (btw the server is still good for several months now). In the time taken for the organisational changes to be finalised, even though it took weeks and it will still be weeks before they’re “finished”, I’ve come to look back and realise that nobody has actually sat down and asked for an outside opinion on this. The reasoning being that “if they don’t like what we’re offering they can go elsewhere”. Suggesting that we’d be like other arma groups and trying to grab players from other big sites instead of being part of a larger community was largely ignored or talked out outside of my field of view. These are fair enough – I don’t play, I don’t organise things and I don’t make the decisions. It doesn’t mean I can’t be vexed by them though.

Folk has genuinely been a good thing for the ARPS group - it provided direction, organisation and new content. It gave the ARPS group access to another side of arma, as the Folk hosts have been kicking around since op flash and has stories about everyone and everything to do with the game. I had no issues with things staying the way they were. ( Actually, I’ll honest here and admit that wasn’t entirely true: I’ve been far from full of praise for the RPS forums in the past and at one point did strongly consider trying to do what the group is now doing. However, I was talked out of it. )

As to why I posted a terse reactionary thread? I asked myself if I would take part in the proposed community at any point in the period before, during or after I started playing arma. The answer I came to was “probably not”, and that frustrated me enough that I had to post SOMETHING as a counterpoint, and the bad session prior exacerbated my foul mood.

This thread changes nothing and I expected it to change nothing when I posted it, it’s why I list the good reasons for listening to the Hosts and doing what they say at the end of the first post. The merger is still going ahead as nobody has strongly objected to it– like I said to Bodge last night, if this thread changes anything it’s because the hosts have completely and utterly misjudged their target audience, which given the continuing sessions is obviously NOT the case.

I’ve one final thing to point out: ARPS was founded on donations from people who frequented the RPS steam chat. Not all of who play arma (either now or in the past). A number of the top donors are now Hosts on the Folk-ARPS circle and were heavily involved in the merger decision making process, but there’s still this itch I have that says the structural changes proposed would thus be in poor faith. It IS a small percentage, and I’ve started saying to those who ask (before this merger thing ever came up) that if they wanted to donate eg purely for mumble I would try to keep track of that as separate fund. Nobody actually took me up on that though.

Bodge
05-12-2012, 10:21 PM
Below are some of my personal thoughts (in bold) on a couple of paragraphs;



And I DO most definitely disagree with some of the structural changes – purely Folk folks have long made up a tiny proportion of the combined crowd, yet the group will move entirely to those forums, switch over to TS3 (which we’ve had huge arguments over before and the general consensus was always stick with mumble). There’s also the move to Skype instead of Steam Chats. At that point the balance has switched from being “Folk and RPS play together”, past where we ended up with “Folk runs sessions where RPS form the majority of the playerbase” to “RPS is an advertising post for Folk”.
The forums being in one place would help for finding info, discussing stuff and organising games. A dedicated forum would help with the presentation of information and finding it. I would hope skype would be useful as it provides a semi permanent record of chat so arma types can discuss things in realtime and look back at what has been discussed in text chat that has passed. Personally I don't mind about the name, it is a label for us and as long as it isn't stupid I don't mind too much what it is

The changes are presented as not mandatory but they kind of are. How many times has someone with an unrecognised name joined the server and been told to register / post / getonsteam / getonmumble / etc? It’s the way things (with varying levels of rudeness and demanding behaviour) work. Hell, we used to have threads on these forums for Folk nights, but those got stopped because people preferred using them to the ones on the Folk boards.
I agree that some people have been rather short and impolite regarding providing info and such, a welcoming community would benefit from a bit more consideration to new players. A single place to direct people to may help this.

That’s not a merger, that’s a takeover. (Perhaps there is no way to have a merger at all)
I disagree with the term takeover. It is more a re-organisation, the same people are admins/hosts etc, most of the info is the same but things are trying to be put into one place.

I was never directly involved in any discussion about the future of the group, and I avoided getting myself involved because arma and steam chat stopped being fun for me. At the same time I never felt I was asked for my opinion on anything despite being tied into the structure of the group, and when I DID volunteer concerns or suggestions they were generally quashed. When I pointed out that we were going to be asking for donations immediately after the changeover and that this would be a breach of faith against those donating there was eventually some response (btw the server is still good for several months now). In the time taken for the organisational changes to be finalised, even though it took weeks and it will still be weeks before they’re “finished”, I’ve come to look back and realise that nobody has actually sat down and asked for an outside opinion on this. The reasoning being that “if they don’t like what we’re offering they can go elsewhere”. Suggesting that we’d be like other arma groups and trying to grab players from other big sites instead of being part of a larger community was largely ignored or talked out outside of my field of view. These are fair enough – I don’t play, I don’t organise things and I don’t make the decisions. It doesn’t mean I can’t be vexed by them though.
I don't want people to feel that they want to not play arma with us. I think here the difference between the group and the sessions is key. I run sessions to allow people to play missions in an organised but fun manner, that is my aim anyway. At times this means telling people to be quiet or not to take the chopper again and so on. If people don't like that then they don't need to go away, we should be trying to organise arma sessions they are interested in playing in addition to the current ones. This has happened a little with certain mods but there is a lot of room for improvement in this, (a more "casual" session is something already mentioned and i have spoken to a couple of people about it).

This thread changes nothing and I expected it to change nothing when I posted it, it’s why I list the good reasons for listening to the Hosts and doing what they say at the end of the first post. The merger is still going ahead as nobody has strongly objected to it– like I said to Bodge last night, if this thread changes anything it’s because the hosts have completely and utterly misjudged their target audience, which given the continuing sessions is obviously NOT the case.

I’ve one final thing to point out: ARPS was founded on donations from people who frequented the RPS steam chat. Not all of who play arma (either now or in the past). A number of the top donors are now Hosts on the Folk-ARPS circle and were heavily involved in the merger decision making process, but there’s still this itch I have that says the structural changes proposed would thus be in poor faith. It IS a small percentage, and I’ve started saying to those who ask (before this merger thing ever came up) that if they wanted to donate eg purely for mumble I would try to keep track of that as separate fund. Nobody actually took me up on that though.
I think it is important to note that changes from the merger would only be affecting the arma players as far as I can tell, so if anything they require the blessing of ARPS players.


As I have said I want to provide an enjoyable atmosphere for as many people as possible to enjoy arma. With a larger number of players we have not been able to have the less structured nights of old while still tackling a few missions. Personally I also enjoy an organised but relaxed approach to a mission so the CO/SL/FTL structure we use now helps co-ordinate things well so things don't degenerate into a bit of a mess.

My contributions to the development of this arma community have always been to further that goal of enjoyable arma for a large amount of people. If the structured nights are not everyone's cup of tea then we should work on a more freeform session at some point to cater for those wants, it doesn't have to be organised by anyone in particular someone just needs to start a thread to gauge interest and then sort it out. I work at organising structured sessions because that is what I enjoy doing mainly in arma. If you want to do something else then organise it, if you don't know where to start talk to me about it and lets work on it.

Bodge,

Again, these are MY thoughts.

Bodge
05-12-2012, 10:31 PM
Fair enough, but it' just been my experience that it was harder to get casually involved with FOLK, as in, 'Get involved without knowing much, don't feel too stressed out, take it casually'. Crashing helis and stuff, no, not what I was talking about. With all the FOLK stuff I just didn't feel exactly welcome to dip my toe in if it's just once in forever, you know?
Do you think that smaller irregular sessions would help with such things? Also do you think that because of the player numbers and structure it puts undue pressure on people to be "experienced" or show other similar traits (at your stressed out comment really)



Maybe, if threads for smaller sessions are getting drowned, rather than taking stuff off to forums not necessarily everyone knows about (like me), some other solution could be found like a new subdirectory in Game Clubs And General Sociability, or a google calendar somewhere.
That was partly the thinking behind a single forum, a subdirectory would need to be passed in front of Jim. The issue with the calendar would be that it requires you to plan things in advance a bit more, maybe saying a couple of nights at 19:30 people turn up for arma and then just see what happens?

This is some text so it will let me post

JimTheDog
05-12-2012, 11:09 PM
This is some text so it will let me post

Okay, I was more talking about W:EE being pulled off to the side, re: the smaller side sessions thing/calendar/etc. I don't think that has much use for something like Arma which has some group visibility -- smaller games do not.

As for for smaller irregular sessions, I don't know. What seemed to work were the highly informal TT sessions I got in on and really enjoyed way back when, which were less stressful less because of the number of players and structure (This was right after Day Z came out and the population explosion), and more, I think, because of a more relaxed focus. My experience of FOLK is that it's a lot more focussed and serious, which is fine, it's just not something I feel comfortable dropping in on where I'm a new stranger.

Why?

FOLK has their own forums, big pages of rules, a player culture based around this socialist agrarian revolutionary thing, a distinct perspective that seems to say, to me, 'you're not welcome unless you're willing to invest time in us.'

Which is fine. But it just doesn't feel like something I want to participate in.

I kind of suspect, thinking back on it, that part of the reason for my drift away from ARMA might actually have something to do with this. I made time in my schedule for it specifically for quite a long time. Sunday night sessions were the first ones I felt less motivated to join, then, gradually, the Tuesday sessions. Unfortunately there is no one set of events that I can point at and say 'here is what made me disinterested', or 'here is what would bring me back.'

If you're looking to me to offer a solution, I don't think I can. But what I can say is that whatever this new thing is, it's not a solution so far as I'm concerned. I just want to get onto mumble now and then and blow some shit up with friendly people who have a similar perspective. I want to check the forums here, on RPS, because it's tied to a blog I read frequently and, as such, is easy for me to fit into my daily routine.

I'm probably not your target audience, Bodge. For me, this whole thing I want is where I can drop in and play games with minimum fuss. Setting up Skype, dragging myself around various forums I don't check regularly, needing to read rules and explanations which are 50% party propaganda developed by the ministry of agriculture and fermented goat fuels instead of a three word explanation, these things are all 'maximum fuss'.

harakka
06-12-2012, 01:04 AM
II just want to get onto mumble now and then and blow some shit up with friendly people who have a similar perspective. I want to check the forums here, on RPS, because it's tied to a blog I read frequently and, as such, is easy for me to fit into my daily routine.

I'm probably not your target audience, Bodge. For me, this whole thing I want is where I can drop in and play games with minimum fuss. Setting up Skype, dragging myself around various forums I don't check regularly, needing to read rules and explanations which are 50% party propaganda developed by the ministry of agriculture and fermented goat fuels instead of a three word explanation, these things are all 'maximum fuss'.

I'm not Bodge, but I think we've failed to communicate our intent if you've gotten this impression. We are still aiming for the minimum fuss experience. As has always been the case with ARPS and Folk, all that has been required of the players is ARMA2 CO, voice comms software (which is now TS3 instead of either Mumble or TS3 depending on the day) and respect for your fellow players. This is still in effect.

Reading either this forum or the Folk forum has not been a requirement. It has obviously been a nice thing to do as that's where the community has gathered and a lot of info for the curious has been posted, but it has not been a requirement and still isn't.

Skype has not been made a requirement either, it is just a place to hang out specifically for ARMA stuff. As far as I know, no-one who is currently in the RPS Steam chat is leaving it because of this. I personally don't frequent the Steam chat any more because it is fairly high traffic. I was there primarily to pick up company for ad-hoc ARMAing, for which I don't have a lot of time now, and help people with ARMA related questions, which I don't have time and energy to monitor the chat activity for.

Phalanx
06-12-2012, 01:28 AM
What I don't really understand is what you guys are actually trying to do. If you're trying to make FOLK into ShackTac jr. I don't think that's a good route to go... There are enough super-isolated pockets of communities for Arma already.

This merge/takeover whatever people fancy calling it is being made out to be a much bigger deal than I think it really is. Saying this or that is ending, then going on to say it's going to continue as it was before. Wha?

From playing both FOLK and TT sessions for months, I really didn't see much difference between the two. There were always more serious, structured missions which made up the "official" portion of the session, then the "after-session" where people play fun missions to unwind and mess about. This was the case on both sessions. The only way I think FOLK comes across as a little more "milsim" is with the no 3rd person setting.

The seriousness of the night was usually defined by who was hosting the session. Some hosts are little more laid back and some take on a more prominent authority figure. Regardless, the sessions played out using the same structure. We slot, we plan, we play.

All this gubbins about switching to Skype, do this and that instead of what we're doing already, I can't help but think of something Harakka posted recently (which I can't find here, might be on the FOLK forums) where he said "That's just changing things for the sake of change." And that was directed at someone asking if we were going to name missions differently with the new community.

So if that's change for the sake of change, what's the deal with using Skype all of a sudden? Don't we have a FOLK group on steam? Surely Steam is a far better platform to use as a gaming hub, since well.. It's designed to be as such. Skype is meant for calling people with high quality and hogging your bandwidth. Besides, why would you need MORE records of chats when you already have dedicated forums?

I don't know, I would've hoped that with relatively small communities like this we would have more communication about proposed big changes, so that we could discuss and find a good solution that most (if not all) people agreed with. Right now the split seems 50/50...

Black Mamba
06-12-2012, 01:44 AM
I can't help but think of something Harakka posted recently (which I can't find here, might be on the FOLK forums) where he said "That's just changing things for the sake of change." And that was directed at someone asking if we were going to name missions differently with the new community.

Yeah, but that was a bullshit question though. I didn't expect anybody to even bother answering that.

Phalanx
06-12-2012, 01:53 AM
Yeah, but that was a bullshit question though. I didn't expect anybody to even bother answering that.

Tbh though I'd say it was a legit question... if we're taking the effort to name missions after a community then if the community name changes why wouldn't the label get changed as well? That's assuming people are being as serious about this as they imply.

Wolfenswan
06-12-2012, 02:04 AM
So if that's change for the sake of change, what's the deal with using Skype all of a sudden?

Skype has always been used by FOLK as the next best thing to an IRC channel. No one's being forced to install or use skype and I have no idea where that notion comes from as it wasn't mentioned anywhere besides Null's post. The only reason for using Skype is because a dedicated Arma group chat has existed for quite a while in the form of the Folkgroup chat, which can be used to organize impromptu Arma or other Arma/group related stuff that might otherwise drown in the RPS steam chat.

Also it's easier to contact hosts via Skype (apart from PMs in the forums) as other than Steam they don't need to be online to receive the message.

Edit: After reading the announcement a second time I agree that the wording regarding the skype chat is unclear in whether it's mandatory or not.

Again: if you don't want to use Skype, that's not a problem at all. People will still linger in the RPS steam chat, hosts will continue to be online on Steam, Steam group announcements will continue to be made and above all the forums will the first place for all information and organization regarding Folk ARPS and sessions.


I don't know, I would've hoped that with relatively small communities like this we would have more communication about proposed big changes

In my opinion it's not a big change but a matter of convenience, mostly because of the reasons you've already listed. Everything that might be or is a problem can be discussed. E.g. the mumble server doesn't cease to exist and personally I wouldn't mind to keep using it. But then I'm really indifferent towards our preferred method of VOIP so someone else needs to raise that issue.

I've replied to the naming scheme question in the announcement thread over at the FA forums btw.



Anyway, I don't have much to add to the overall discussion. I wanted to move to another forum as in my opinion the mission making will profit from a dedicated sub forum and it will make it easier to get your missions tested and on the server. Apart from that, it's still the same old ArmA and I could only quote the last paragraph in the announcement.

harakka
06-12-2012, 04:05 AM
What I don't really understand is what you guys are actually trying to do. If you're trying to make FOLK into ShackTac jr. I don't think that's a good route to go... There are enough super-isolated pockets of communities for Arma already.
What we are actually trying to do, concretely, is to have one set of things for the same purpose instead of two sets of things. Up to now we've had two names, two game servers, two VOIP servers, two forums, etc, even though the actual thing we do, the sessions, has been mostly the same. About the ShackTac jr. thing, you would need to be more specific about your concerns. ST runs closed sessions for people who have passed an application process, and has closed communication channels. Our sessions will still be open to everyone as they have been until now, same goes for the forum and the chat. We remain no mods required, no investment required. Just come play.


This merge/takeover whatever people fancy calling it is being made out to be a much bigger deal than I think it really is. Saying this or that is ending, then going on to say it's going to continue as it was before. Wha?
I agree, maybe we haven't communicated about all this as clearly as we could have. This is probably in part because it has been a big deal for us hosts.


From playing both FOLK and TT sessions for months, I really didn't see much difference between the two. There were always more serious, structured missions which made up the "official" portion of the session, then the "after-session" where people play fun missions to unwind and mess about. This was the case on both sessions.
Folk and TT have been similar by intent. Personally, for as long as I've been involved, the Folk style has been the standard to which I've tried to run the TT sessions I've had the pleasure of hosting. Simply because it provides for a consistent, enjoyable experience for the 40+ people involved (man... a year back, I used to think 20 people on the server was a lot!). There's been a lament for the loss of the less proper or serious ad-hoc sessions in this thread, and I think the afterparty helps with that to an extent. But figuring out a good way to get the ad-hoc sessions going again is on my personal todo list. I'm hoping that having an ARMA specific chat will help at least a bit on that front.


So if that's change for the sake of change, what's the deal with using Skype all of a sudden? Don't we have a FOLK group on steam? Surely Steam is a far better platform to use as a gaming hub, since well.. It's designed to be as such. Skype is meant for calling people with high quality and hogging your bandwidth. Besides, why would you need MORE records of chats when you already have dedicated forums?

We have whole bunch of Steam groups right now. ARPS and Folk ones have been used for event reminders, nothing else. The RPS one is used for chat, but because it's not ARMA-specific, it has a lot of activity and it doesn't have a record, it's hard to catch the ARMA-related stuff if that's what one is specifically interested in. No-one is telling anyone to leave the RPS group chat.

The Skype group text chat is not mandatory and is meant to fill a purpose: if you want to have a realtime chat about ARMA and related activities specifically, it is a good place for that talk to get noticed. And because the chat has a record, it's possible for people to see what's been talked about and answer any questions asked while they were away. As lesser points, Skype group chat is also available on mobiles, unlike Steam group chat, and Skype is allowed on corporate etc networks more commonly than Steam. A forum is better suited for more permanent matters and longer-form discussions.

Bodge
06-12-2012, 10:38 AM
There is no intent (on my behalf) to change the way we play arma. It is purely a matter of how we present information and discussion for arma. The change to one voip and one (ish) forum is hoped to make things a bit simpler.

Sessions are not going to get more serious/milsim/exclusive and to be quite frank I don't know where that idea came from as that is not what this merge is about. People are reading too much into what is hoped to be an easier way to run sessions and talk about them.

The main reason for any session changes in the past has been the increase in player numbers, if you feel a session you were in was too serious or whatever talk to the person that hosted it.

trumpet
06-12-2012, 11:15 AM
Why was teamspeak chosen over mumble? It seems most people much prefer mumble

Halop
06-12-2012, 11:58 AM
My 2 cents.
Prehaps it's because I'm not playing in these sessions for long, just before the dayz explosion, but I didn't really see the big difference between the two sessions. The only things were VOIP and 3rd person. The hosts and the playerbase were mostly the same, and for me the merge makes sense and doesn't come as a surprise. for me that means there aren't two places to look for information or post aar's. Altough I would have preffered to use Mumble over TS, just for the fact that the overlay works. That is just how I see it.

jRides
06-12-2012, 12:01 PM
Will you still be using these forums now that FOLK has annexed ARPS? I would think that potential Arma players would stumble across this forum far quicker than they would a dedicated milsim forum. It was mainly the AARs posted on here (and a mention or two from the front page of the site) what alerted me to the fact that there was fun to be had and I would be welcomed. I would never have dreamed of googling for dedicated Arma group forums when I started playing.

Are the steam groups totally defunct then? While I do get the point on the use of skype vs the steamgroups, it seemed to me the majority of players use steam. The ARPS groupchat is always empty, your right about that but I think its mainly because everyone just piles into the RPS groupchat. The FOLK steamgroup would seem to be the new obvious place but that's a closed group, invite only - is this intentional?

Wolfenswan
06-12-2012, 12:14 PM
Will you still be using these forums now that FOLK has annexed ARPS?

It's a merge, not an annexiation. Folk has stopped existing as much as ARPS has, it's one group now.
And yes, forums will still be used for general publicity like AARs and stickies.


that's a closed group, invite only - is this intentional

good point actually, I think that might be a remnant from the days when Folk was smaller and you'd have to write a short introduction mail. The problem with the ARPS steam group is that it has about 200 players, many of which I've never seen playing ArmA with us. That's the downside of "open for all".

Super‹
06-12-2012, 01:06 PM
Perhaps refering to the "new" group as "FOLK ARPS" is the wrong way of going about things, surely its an ARPS umbrella with the two subevents underneath Tactical Tuesday and FOLK Sunday. Perhaps viewing the sessions in this fashion rather than having one of the sessions (in this case FOLK) forging the group identity.

For me FOLK is just a day of the week. (All be it a glorious and wonderful day).

This may just be a matter of semantics but that's my two cents!

harakka
06-12-2012, 02:27 PM
Perhaps viewing the sessions in this fashion rather than having one of the sessions (in this case FOLK) forging the group identity.
I need to point out something here. Folk has been much more to ARPS than just a session we go play in on Sundays. When the hosts team was formed a year back to keep TTs alive and organized, we adopted the session style of Folk Sundays. We also received a huge amount of advice and encouragement from Fer. We play missions made in the Folk style, using the Folk platoon structure, although the current platoon structure iteration had input from both Folk and ARPS hosts because already back then, we were working together on sessions and the sudden DayZ player influx was a shared issue. As hosts we've encouraged people to make missions in the Folk style, because making missions takes a lot of work and it is good that we can use the same content in both sessions.

There is a reason there is both Folk and ARPS in the new name. Both owe a lot to one another.

Hawk_Silk
06-12-2012, 02:32 PM
Well Phalax, JRides and even Nullkigan have mentioned many of the points I have problems with, so I won't dwell on those here.

However... The more and more I read about this the more I don't like the direction it's going, also doesn't help that some of you have this thing that is pure nonsense but more on that shortly.

The first thing I want to bring up is, you are "merging the groups" I don't see it like that. I see it essentially as I can not think of a better term right now as, the little group bullying the larger group and succeeding. For one when you merge two entities you DO NOT try to move the larger entity into the smaller one, why? Well because if nothing else you are creating more work for yourself than necessary.

The second point is, RPS and FOLK tell me which one is more likely to be known about? I'm sorry FOLK you may have been around since the Operation Flashpoint days (surprise! So have I) but I had never heard about your existence until I joined RPS for Arma sessions.

What about potential new players hmm? When I hosted the I44 session the other week I was really happy to see two new faces join us, and most importantly enjoy themselves and thus stick around. Where did they hear about our games from? My money is on the fact they read RPS and decided to see what the community around it does.

The third point and this one has bothered me for quite some time...

WTF is this Socialist Agrarian Utopia bullsh*t? Seriously if it's a joke fine but don't use it all the sodding time. The way it is being used for example would be like the following...

Say I like Star Wars for a minute, and I mean really like it. so I start sounding off about the "Glorious Empire!", ok yeah that's fine for a laugh I guess, except I now do it everytime I post/talk. Yeah it's not going to be long before it only pisses people off or worse makes them think you have some form of problem upstairs. You don't use the same knock knock joke over and over, otherwise people stop answering the door.

You don't use the same knock knock joke over an... Oh wait we've already done that.

But my main gripe with that at the moment is, this "merger" it's a BIG thing by the looks of it so DON'T use the unfunny BS when making an "important" annoucement about it. Write it in plain english as it stands I had to read that twice before I fully understood who did what, for example...


Bodge - As Minister of Supervision and State security I will be fielding any enquiries into party policy and managing content published by the party. I will also maintain the security and longevity of the General Secretary's incarceration.

Wait... What?
This should have been...


Bodge - Manages the security of Servers and VOIP programs, responsable for mission uploading to the servers. Also around to help with any issues members of the community may be having.

See much easier to read and I know exactly what Bodge's role is in less than 2 seconds.

As for those that are saying, "nothing is really changing!" then why make a big thing out of it to start with?

Somebody said they haven't seen any strong objections to all this...

Well here you go, you can consider my voice a strong objection. For what it's actually worth.

Regards Hawk.

thekev506
06-12-2012, 03:01 PM
The second point is, RPS and FOLK tell me which one is more likely to be known about? I'm sorry FOLK you may have been around since the Operation Flashpoint days (surprise! So have I) but I had never heard about your existence until I joined RPS for Arma sessions.

What about potential new players hmm? When I hosted the I44 session the other week I was really happy to see two new faces join us, and most importantly enjoy themselves and thus stick around. Where did they hear about our games from? My money is on the fact they read RPS and decided to see what the community around it does.


I'm one of the newer players in both groups, and have only played ARMA online since October. My experience of this actually goes in the opposite direction to what you're saying. I stumbled across a shacktac video on youtube and it got me interested in playing ARMA online, but I wanted to play with a Euro group rather than a US group, and one that was a little less serious than shacktac. There were recommendations on the st site to check out FOLK for exactly that kind of thing, so I did, and the folk forums quickly led me to playing with ARPS, too. I'd also like to stick up for FOLK in regards to people saying they're not as welcoming as ARPS, because again my first FOLK session was much easier to get to grips with; nobody was brash with me, and there was a lot of explanation and positive support at my first FOLK workshop. I'd say FOLK made me more comfortable playing with ARPS.

I really enjoy playing with both groups, and couldn't pick one over the other because they both offer a really great experience. I'd be the first to admit I'm not the greatest ARMA player, but neither group has ever made me feel lesser or unwelcome. The majority of complaints people seem to have is not liking the semantics or humour of one thing or the other, which just seems petty to me. A lot of the agrarian utopia stuff is chaff, and the jokes can be a bit naff at times, but it doesn't make me want to storm off in outrage, and even if it did I don't think 'I don't like your sense of humour' would vouch as a serious complaint.

Wolfenswan
06-12-2012, 03:56 PM
The second point is, RPS and FOLK tell me which one is more likely to be known about? I'm sorry FOLK you may have been around since the Operation Flashpoint days (surprise! So have I) but I had never heard about your existence until I joined RPS for Arma sessions.

The only place ARPS is being promoted on it's own is the occasionally "come play games with us" post on the RPS frontpage. Everywhere else ARPS and Folk tend to be mentioned as sister groups, for example Dsylexci's recommendation of other groups or the various times people have promoted the groups on reddit. (The I44 session has been mentioned a few times on reddit as well btw)

I'm sorry, but you're just guessing here and throwing weight around that you've got no proof to back with.

I get that you don't appreciate the humor. I'm surprised that no one ever raised this issue. There have been two boards, chats and easy ways to directly contact the hosts. Why did no one ever come along with a simply "hey I/we don't think the socialist joking isn't as funny as you might think, care to tone it done a bit"? If we had known that people strongly object to this kind of humor then the announcement would probably have been worded differently.

zitron
06-12-2012, 04:06 PM
No, we don't think the Social Agrarian Utopia thing makes any fucking sense whatsoever, and it's not funny trying to politicise a group like that?

I like mumble, I think that the running joke of the glorious communist republic is stale as hell and forces people into playing with AKs and shit all the time,


a player culture based around this socialist agrarian revolutionary thing, a distinct perspective that seems to say, to me, 'you're not welcome unless you're willing to invest time in us.'

So all this boils down to not getting the joke? Surely I can't be the only one that actually finds the socialist theme funny? It's satire, no one is actually forcing your to be a socialist, it's the opposite. It's making fun of "The Party" as it is basically dysfunctional and incompetent while pretending to have power (My god I hope Fer doesn't read this). It gives us something to shout about while charging towards T72s with Markovs. Maybe it's not that funny, but I can't understand how anyone could be offended by this, unless they really are from the politburo.

Anyway, it's just a game. Play, don't play, host, don't host. I enjoy running around with a Lee Enfield in Zargabad Safari just as much as team work in Tiger/Ferrad's workshops. Who cares if it's ran by Folk or RPS, I want more cool missions, more variety of mission, and more cool toys in missions. I would also support some kind of official after party after the end of serious stuff. I hope someone can make more "fun" mission since cholo and crazyrace are a bit old now.

[DvtS]Wilson
06-12-2012, 04:07 PM
Like thekev506, I too found FOLK through a recommendation made by Shacktac - a simple email to Fer and I was welcomed to the following Sunday session. I've only played with them for 3 months now and played my first TT session 2 weeks ago. The only difference I found in the sessions were about a group of 5 people who don't play on Sundays.

As far as I can tell, this MERGE can only benefit both groups in the long run -the fact that ARPS admins/hosts have been heavily involved in said merge just proves it's not a hostile take over by FOLK and has been carried out with both 'parties' involvement.

Is it due to the fact that the name FOLK appears first in the new name? lol

As for the 'party' jokes etc. It's clearly just a joke, something that you don't have to be involved in and easily ignored - it's not my cup of tea, so I just let it go over my head. In the end, I'm only here to play ArmA2 in a fun but organised manner and both groups offer this on two specified days starting at half 7 - if people find it such a struggle to complete a few more mouse clicks to navigate to a different forum/site - just turn up on said days at said times and PLAY.

StrangLove
06-12-2012, 04:38 PM
However... The more and more I read about this the more I don't like the direction it's going, also doesn't help that some of you have this thing that is pure nonsense but more on that shortly.

I'm not sure as to what 'direction' you're referring to. We were two groups with identical play-styles, administration and player-base. This merger simplifies the process of administration as well as cutting down the effort needed to play in both sessions - one server, one VOIP client, one website on which to glean the information for both.

The first thing I want to bring up is, you are "merging the groups" I don't see it like that. I see it essentially as I can not think of a better term right now as, the little group bullying the larger group and succeeding. For one when you merge two entities you DO NOT try to move the larger entity into the smaller one, why? Well because if nothing else you are creating more work for yourself than necessary.

What makes you think that ARPS has been 'bullied' into moving into Folk? Is it the move to what used to be the Folk forums, or the adoption as TS3 as the Voip client for the main sessions? I'd genuinely like to know what the figuring is behind this idea, and what you believe the solution is.

The second point is, RPS and FOLK tell me which one is more likely to be known about? I'm sorry FOLK you may have been around since the Operation Flashpoint days (surprise! So have I) but I had never heard about your existence until I joined RPS for Arma sessions.

ARPS is still in the title, the RPS Arma subforum still remains. We are by no means playing down the ARPS element, or playing up the Folk side of things.

What about potential new players hmm? When I hosted the I44 session the other week I was really happy to see two new faces join us, and most importantly enjoy themselves and thus stick around. Where did they hear about our games from? My money is on the fact they read RPS and decided to see what the community around it does.

Wolf has already addressed this point, so I'll only briefly touch on it: Guest and Host posts on /r/Arma, as well as members from other gaming communities have provided some excellent players to the sessions. We still very much appreciate the influx of players we get from the frontpage, and in no way do the changes prevent people from coming in from the frontpage and playing with us. If you percieve that they do, could you please explain how (I fear that I may not have the most impartial of opinions here, and I may be missing something big)

The third point and this one has bothered me for quite some time...

WTF is this Socialist Agrarian Utopia bullsh*t? Seriously if it's a joke fine but don't use it all the sodding time. The way it is being used for example would be like the following...

Say I like Star Wars for a minute, and I mean really like it. so I start sounding off about the "Glorious Empire!", ok yeah that's fine for a laugh I guess, except I now do it everytime I post/talk. Yeah it's not going to be long before it only pisses people off or worse makes them think you have some form of problem upstairs. You don't use the same knock knock joke over and over, otherwise people stop answering the door.

You don't use the same knock knock joke over an... Oh wait we've already done that.

I suppose this is a matter of personal opinion, and I don't feel particularly strong either way on the matter.

As for those that are saying, "nothing is really changing!" then why make a big thing out of it to start with?

Well, it's important that people know what is changing, isn't it? We are simplifying the structure and creating a more rigid structure of Host roles - This serves to ensure that if you need something done by one of us, you get it done by the right chap for the job. There are no great leaps for the playerbase - As far as I see it, we are asking very little, and providing people with the conduit to discuss and play in a pure ARMA focus. This by no means prevents you from playing other games with other RPSers, from chatting about other games (or even chatting about ARMA) in the RPS steamchat, or from joining in debates on the RPS discussion forums.

Somebody said they haven't seen any strong objections to all this...

Well here you go, you can consider my voice a strong objection. For what it's actually worth.

I very much appreciate it, and I hope this has either answered or served to put across my perspective on the matter

Regards Hawk.

Again, these are my own views mixed with a little of what I hope is insight into the Hosts reasons for the merger. If I've said anything that anyone considers offensive or wrong in this post, don't hesitate to pull me up on it. If anyone wants to talk about this (or other ArmA matters) in greater depth, I'm stranglove.1 on skype and StrangLove on steam. Hit me up!

Unaco
06-12-2012, 04:59 PM
Clearly, this has all been done because the Party Fears Two (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZSMDaewz2A)... servers.

Ferrard Carson
06-12-2012, 05:21 PM
I would also support some kind of official after party after the end of serious stuff. I hope someone can make more "fun" mission since cholo and crazyrace are a bit old now.

This has been a significant problem for me when I host - "cholo'ing out" can only be done so many times before it gets rote. I've got an idea for a "shameless fun" mission already in the works, and if you guys toss us some more, then the more the merrier!

~ Ferrard

Hawk_Silk
06-12-2012, 06:02 PM
Well I'll try to clear up on some of what I said as it seems some of it wasn't wrote in the best way, hold on.

The Socialist Agrarian Utopia Stuff: Perhaps I shouldn't have said "Bullsh*t", my apologies. What I was trying to get at, particularly with the Star Wars reference was not "Oh don't use it, it's dumb.", you are welcome to it. More a case of don't use it at every opportunity you can, and not when you are trying to convey something that is important. So it's not that I "don't get the joke" it's more that the joke is over used.

The direction: It all boils down to trying to move a larger group into a smaller one instead of vice versa, ultimately more work for the organisers that way. Also when I said about RPS I wasn't actually meaning RPS as in the front page, I ment as in people go to the front page read it and decide to look at the forums. See an Arma/anyother group and think "well why not, it's a large community".

The other thing I was trying to get at was more basic as in, someone searches Google for RPS there is a good chance they could find the ARPS group if they are looking for a fun Arma group, as it's on RPS's own forums. Where as moving most of the stuff to the FOLK forums it's a lot harder to find out about FOLK. Perhaps I should have said ARPS not RPS in my previous post.

Ultimately one of my main fears is this FOLKARPS could become a lot more closed off to new people in the future. As this to me (but it could be the way it's been brought across) looks like a locking down of the group(s).

As for the name of the group? No I don't give two hoots what it's called, and I'm a little disappointed that you would think that in all honesty.

I do hope my points are easier to understand this time, and apologies of any offense caused aswell. That was not my intention.

Regards Hawk.

SpecialSoup
06-12-2012, 07:09 PM
Regarding the move and some of Hawk's points;

A lot of the things about the move, to me, are good. It comes across as utterly pointless to run two servers and have two separately named groups doing exactly the same things. The renaming and consolidation of resources is a mostly good thing.

When it comes to Mumble, it pains me to say TS3 is the best option. In my opinion TS3 is worse in every conceivable way (especially that horrific overlay) except maybe the CC function. Even with that, the mumble option requires extra set up but has the potential to be used for multiple command channels with the flexible access token system.
But as long as the mumble continues to drop out with alarming regularity TS3 is the way to go.

(It does make sense to me to use Mumble's comment system to post a link to the arma forum and a short description in the ARMA 2 CO comment. There has been a HUGE influx of new people into mumble i.e. ps2 who don't necessarily read the forums and that link could prove helpful and bring in new faces)


Onto the negatives and Hawk's points re: direction - I don't see any purpose at all in consolidating the forums, especially moving to the Folk ones. Why not simply continue posting AARs for the relevant night to the relevant forums regardless of name change?
Recently the cross-post notifications for Folk AARs onto ARPS has stopped for reasons unknown for me, and those provide logical awareness raisers of the Folk forums.
I see Fer is trying to redesign the Folk website but a search for 'Folk Arma' still brings up the RPS forums as the second result behind BI.

Maybe long term ferstaberinde would make a good home for Folk Arps, but the RPS forums are considerably easier to find and prominent making a big and unnecessary move right now nonsensical unless the community wants to become more closed off.

Last point, regarding the Socialist blah blah blah, I get the joke on a small scale. Eastern bloc Socialism is basically the running joke of politics and I personally find it amusing when it comes up in AARs and even some of the tutorial threads. But using it in 'the end of the beginning' thread really seems like a step too far when the purpose should of been to inform people of a relatively major structural change without any dogma or bull****.


All just my opinion. Make of it what you will.

Black Mamba
06-12-2012, 07:12 PM
Somebody just told you, that argument of visibilty is fallacious. I myself found FOLK long before ARPS. Folk was a relatively known community inside the arma 2 community.
Still, seeing that the Arma 2 subforum is still there, I don't really see what negative effect it could have.
Carson, I must have a shitload of stupid and short adversarial low-count missions on my computer, which I designed initially for my old group (meaning with a lot of mods in mind), but I could probably convert some of them if people wish it.

Oh, and this has nothing to do here, but that's good news: the Headless client stuff has been fixed, so we should be able to use that when 1.63 comes out. We're gonna die a lot. And add some cover seeking - suppression effect to the AI.

Ferrard Carson
06-12-2012, 07:38 PM
Recently the cross-post notifications for Folk AARs onto ARPS has stopped for reasons unknown for me, and those provide logical awareness raisers of the Folk forums.

A lot of that (if not all) has to do with the posting permissions on RPS, which prevent me from creating threads, I presume until I reach some threshold of replies in other threads. Hence, when I host, I'm unable to post an AAR thread here, and I've been less than diligent about getting other hosts to post one for me. So, my bad ^^;;;

And Black Mamba, that'd be awesome!

~ Ferrard

audiox
06-12-2012, 09:33 PM
All right, politics! Relax, I've got this!

I started playing this fall, and had my first sessions with Folk. I discovered the Arma-community here on RPS, so i hope we maintain a strong presence here even with the new webpage and the combined forum for Folk and ARPS.

Never did i get the impression that my complete noobishness was a hindrance or much of a nuisance when i started playing. Everybody seems friendly and informing when new arrivals show up, regardless of how much they know at the start.
It was somewhat difficult to piece together how it all worked without practical experience, since the theoretical outlines of group comms and the like focus so little on what it is to be used for, but wholly on the mechanics. (though that is a topic for elsewhere. Digressomatics aside.)
When i read about TT and Folk on the forums here and over at ferstaberinde Folk seemed the easier to get into. That might be because i appreciated the humour involved in their explanations, and their capacity for self-denigration. Socialist mockery might not work for everybody, though, so to make it more obvious that it in no way is necessary to partake in it might not hurt. (It can be daunting to try to write AAR's over at the Folk-forums with all the well written commentary over there!) The Socialist utopia gone horribly wr...*click*... erm... right, might not be attractive to all folks, so how introduction posts about organization and comms are to be written in the future is something that should be thought about.
When i started playing TT's as well it seemed pretty similar to Folk besides the Mumble-thing and with less socialist banter, and to be honest, to have two nights of socialst banter might be a bit overkill.

As for the seriousness of the sessions. Well, i don't know how it was in the olden days of pre-dayz headcounts, but the more people that are running around on the server the more easily can an unstructured approach get really soggy and bad. Personally, i'm more in favour of the structured approach, since learning proper communication and tactical approaches is what keeps me interested in the game, shooting skills and the like are a means for me, not an end. (Mainly because it's easier for me to notice what a crap shooter i am than what a crappy communcator i am, but hey......! =)) If your playstyle is different, thats okay, and sessions where the focus is to basically just drop into a hotzone and clear it out with some loosely coordinated fireteams (which -never- is the case in TT and Folk, assuredly! ;)) can be fun, though i doubt that is as fun with eight fireteams as it is with two.

The one thing that can be done to make it more welcoming to newcomers is to make sure they slot with informative FTL's. Though then we might devolve into a lot of bickering about who does a good and bad job, which i don't want. But an FTL that knows how to communicate with people who are completely new to a fireteam is what i see as the best that can be done in order to ensure more pleasurable experiences for all. Cause dropping into a fireteam with no understanding of proper tehmanologheee can be quite confusing!

But hey, thanks to all who expend so much time and resources to make these things happen, lets hope the merger creates value(tm) for our glorious organization(c)

Grizzly
06-12-2012, 10:36 PM
This "merger" has been going on for a long time, ever since RPS people started visiting the folk sessions and vice versa, the two groups basically have become more and more aligned.
Yes, there have been major changes in TTs playstyle, actually. Mainly due to the influx of new people and Folk's way of doing things.. TT used to be "We do missions without ******* around". Missions like "night Patrol", "Skirmish Devils" and that mission where it's four people with NVs against 16 people with flashlights. And revive. Tactical Teusday certainly has been a lot more light hearted then it is today.

Personally, I do miss those older days of less people and more light hearted drop-in drop-out action. However, action has already been taken to bring those back, and this has not anything to do with this official merger.

The only thing this official merger does is make the Folk way of communaciting the official way of communcating for these sessions.
I disagree with some of this. The main thing is mumble.
Mumble is awesome.
TS3 is not.
I'd really like to see Mumble as the way of doing things. I'd like to hear the team's motivations for using TS3 instead. I am not a big fan of it.

That is all.

EDIT: I did notice someone complaing about squad leaders doing micromanagement - I think this a problem of those squad leaders themselves, not the general way of doing things.
EDIT2: I'd also like to see some differences in playstyle in the two sessions again - TT used to be about giving us slightly OP weapons as BluFor and setting us up against large odds, whilst my first folk session was being handed a pistol and being told to ambush a truck full of army soldiers in order to grab their weapons. I'd love to see something like that back.

Bodge
06-12-2012, 11:34 PM
If things go smoothly we will have
1 session server
1 voip server
RPS arma forum for letting people know about stuff
Folk Arps forum and website for containing more information in an environment more people can control (RPS subforum has Null, Fer and myself as mods only)
RPS steam chat where people hang out
Skype chat is around for people that want to use it - it allows a persistent chat.


ARPS steam chat was never really used. You have the old places that still exist, the two sessions that haven't changed much since the player count explosion. I had a chat with egg and he is looking at running less structured sessions.

I don't really see how anywhere is taking over anywhere else. The same people run some sessions the same people play sessions.

If you have a problem with TS3/Mumble then each to their own tastes and this argument makes more sense, I am not sure where such passionate opposition to TS comes from. I personally feel that the CC option in TS3 is so much slicker that it is a massive help when in session. I don't use an overlay on either and other than that TS3 works just as well as mumble and doesn't bug out anywhere near as frequently.

The socialist thing is not something I am fussed about either way, it is very tongue in cheek.

If you don't like something about how the sessions are run then by all means let us know. But don't try and make the simplification of servers and such sound massively sinister or epically proportioned. It is some important info that should help organising sessions easier and joining sessions easier.

This is really irritating me when people are speculating what is going to happen. There is no monumental change to how you play arma (the biggest is arguably the voip) but if you have queries or concerns talk to me.

EDIT: Oh and i am going to rename the thread for clarity.

Macaco
07-12-2012, 03:24 AM
Disclaimer: I don't give two shits about any of this, I'm gonna play at TT and Sundays either way(Assuming this post doesn't get me banned from said sessions). This is all based out of my love for drama and playing devils advocate. Also I hold no grudges against any of the hosts/admins/people I'm about to annoy.

Just a few quick issues I will raise while trying not to go into too much detail. Keep in mind this is all being direct and simple. I care not for any of that "well technically..." bullshit.

1) Everyone keeps saying "it's not a takeover, it's a merger" but I'd like to ask, other than the date of the Tuesday play session, what are you really keeping from the RPS side if things? (speaking strictly in regard to things that affect ArmA play sessions. RPS steam chat, for example, isn't related to ArmA sessions other than that a lot of us hang out there.) TT is being moved to Folks default server, VoIP is being moved to Folks TS3 server, AAR and other ArmA discussion is being moved to Folks forums. So to say it's an equal sided merger seems facetious to me (i promised myself I would use that word in this post. Yes I know it's used incorrectly, I don't care)

2) Another thing said is "If you have issues, bring them up to us and we will handle them" but this thread is basically just people bring up issues, and hosts saying offhand "that's not an issue, you're wrong."

3) The sexualist agricultural ethiopia joke is amusing at times, but as has been said, shouldn't be used in official business stuff.

4) My only issues with how serious/nofunallowed folk is, is yelling at everyone to shut up while the CO plans. If banter is killing his ability to think, maybe turn down the volume for a couple minutes instead of yelling at everyone else, though I've never heard (or maybe I have. I'm not good with voices) a CO ask for silence, just the hosts.

5) I'm trying to make a fun time mission in between the getting frustrated at the real mission I'm making but I have no idea what I'm doing. Expect finished products about a week after ArmA 3 comes out and makes it all irrelevant.

well shit. So much for a quick and concise post.

lazer
07-12-2012, 06:03 AM
When I do get a chance to play, I've always preferred the FOLK sessions. AKs are rad. From my limited time I've observed that Tactical Tuesdays are just FOLK with more than AKs and trucks. I've played back when it was just 15-20 dudes and more recently with the large player base. In my mind FOLK and RPS have always been interchangeable. For both I simply configured things the way I was asked, hopped in and played. Never got any flak for it either. I remember my first session I was a CO because nobody else wanted to be, and it was totally fine. Aside from mission selection I couldn't tell you the difference (hell the player-base is even almost exactly the same), so my two cents is I don't get why everyone's panties are in a wad.

I for one appreciate that we're finally picking one voice client instead of having to have two installed to enjoy both groups when it's essentially the same people playing. Mumble and TS3 are both good, but having to use both is a pain. For what it's worth I think TS3 is much easier to configure/keep configured, though I'll mourn the loss of overlays.

As an American I always thought the Socialist Party stuff was silly British humor and I quite enjoy it (and coincidentally it provides context for a lot of missions which does a lot for my level of enjoyment).

But everyone feel free to disregard anything I say because I really dont get to play that often.

EDIT: Also I guess now is the time to mention that I really enjoyed playing with you guys more when it was just 20 some people instead of the amounts now. That's just personal preference though.

DBLEDIT: I also agree with the sentiment that newer players should be encouraged to slot with more experienced FTLs. I take great pride in my ability to inform everyone that I'm not the greatest FTL/SL and "don't slot with me if you want to live." That should be everyone's personal responsibility, but I also always thought that was common sense.

TRPLEDIT: For the sake of data collection I guess I should also mention I had no idea RPS had an ARMA group until I heard about TT while playing a FOLK session.

Bodge
07-12-2012, 12:04 PM
Just a few quick issues I will raise while trying not to go into too much detail. Keep in mind this is all being direct and simple. I care not for any of that "well technically..." bullshit.

1) Everyone keeps saying "it's not a takeover, it's a merger" but I'd like to ask, other than the date of the Tuesday play session, what are you really keeping from the RPS side if things? (speaking strictly in regard to things that affect ArmA play sessions. RPS steam chat, for example, isn't related to ArmA sessions other than that a lot of us hang out there.) TT is being moved to Folks default server, VoIP is being moved to Folks TS3 server, AAR and other ArmA discussion is being moved to Folks forums. So to say it's an equal sided merger seems facetious to me (i promised myself I would use that word in this post. Yes I know it's used incorrectly, I don't care).
It isn't being moved to folks default server, the ARPS one is being renamed and the folk one deleted, for now we are going to use the sunday difficulty settings. Folk no longer exists, calling them the folk forums is incorrect, yes they are in the same place at the moment but it isn't as if they are exclusive and AARs will still exist here. It is easier to create discussion about mission making and sessions at a forum that more people can moderate this is the FolkARPS forum. What have we ever used from ARPS, it was this forum, the steam group was never really used that much apart from announcements. We are moving to TS3 for the reasons posted above. It is a merger because what was two slightly separate sessions is now one set of sessions on one set of servers, hopefully this should make things simpler

2) Another thing said is "If you have issues, bring them up to us and we will handle them" but this thread is basically just people bring up issues, and hosts saying offhand "that's not an issue, you're wrong."
No one is saying anything offhand, I don't think anyone has said anyone else is wrong. Personally I am giving the thinking behind the changes and why I think certain things are a good idea. People have given other contact details so discussing them could be made easier. I personally had a chat with Egg about his misgivings and he is now trying something to improve things.

3) The sexualist agricultural ethiopia joke is amusing at times, but as has been said, shouldn't be used in official business stuff.
I don't know why you are using the words "sexualist" or "Ethiopia". I don't really care much about the joke itself, some of the hosts gave their descriptions in that manner so they were made uniform the sentences below were to make it more obvious.

4) My only issues with how serious/nofunallowed folk is, is yelling at everyone to shut up while the CO plans. If banter is killing his ability to think, maybe turn down the volume for a couple minutes instead of yelling at everyone else, though I've never heard (or maybe I have. I'm not good with voices) a CO ask for silence, just the hosts.
The thinking behind this is that it allow a clear channel to think, explain and ask questions, mission makers might need to tell them some info turning your volume down would make this quite difficult. A bit of quiet makes things run quickly and help get the mission started more quickly, people should not be yelling at anyone though I personally have not experienced anyone shouting at people.

5) I'm trying to make a fun time mission in between the getting frustrated at the real mission I'm making but I have no idea what I'm doing. Expect finished products about a week after ArmA 3 comes out and makes it all irrelevant. Glad to hear it, if you want a hand with anything Wolf is a great choice to ping questions at but anyone who has made a couple of missions may be able to help bounce ideas around.

well shit. So much for a quick and concise post.

Posted some replies above.

Bodge
07-12-2012, 12:10 PM
See much easier to read and I know exactly what Bodge's role is in less than 2 seconds.

.

There was this bit -

To provide clarity
General queries and content management-> Bodge or Fer.
Mission problems -> Contact Wolf, Strang or SvDvorak.
Mod stuff -> Wash.
Server issues -> Harakka, Caper (esp if A2Free) or Null (if financial).
Workshop queries -> Tiger or Carson.
Flight sim stuffs -> Headspace.
So if you don't know who to contact about something just ask any host, but you may be redirected to the relevant person (For missions please press [wolfenswan]).

which laid it out rather concisely.

Tigershark
07-12-2012, 12:45 PM
Hi,
My name is Jason. You may know me as Tigershark. I have a full time job that consumes a lot of my time in order to support my wife and my new born baby. I leave home at 7am and come home around 7.30pm. I also travel quite a bit for my job which takes me away from home in regular stints of between 3-5 days. In the little spare time I have I am also trying to get my own iOS development studio up and running whilst trying to juggle work commitments and spend what precious time I have left with my family.

Why is this of any interest to you? Well....it is perhaps of no interest at all. However, the more astute of you will have drawn a link between the fact that despite the limited time I have in just getting ahead in life, I, like all of the other hosts who make Sundays and Tuesdays happen, still find the time in each or our respective busy lives to run Arma sessions for people (ie. You) so they can enjoy a game that we also love to play. If this wasn't time consuming enough, many of the hosts also find additional time to write missions (for the sessions you enjoy) and in my own situation, find time to think about workshops, potential training and set up workshops for interested people to enjoy.

Perhaps this is not immediately obvious to many of you but this takes up quite a lot of time. Yet it is something we feel appropriately passionate about that we continue to do it and very much want to succeed and prosper. Building, nurturing and growing a community seems like an easy thing until you try it yourself.

If you are still reading (and I hope you are) contrast this commitment with your own contributions to our community. Other than turning up to play (in an organised session that is moderated for the enjoyment of all) and whining in this thread....what have you contributed to either Folk or ARPS Arma community?

Please....take a moment and consider how de-motivating a lot of the crap in this thread must be for the people who, you know.....actually do shit to make your Sunday's and Tuesday's enjoyable. You may claim, "Look...anyone can do what you do!" And you are right. The point is....they don't...do they? Do you step up? If you don't step up and are happy to simply turn up and play, do think that gives you some kind of right to complain about all the things that are not to your liking despite the fact you have contributed zero?

So please…let's all keep some perspective in this thread. There may be some things in here we are not happy with, and like in life, some compromises were made and tough decisions were taken, but these are decisions that were taken by the hosts (not lightly I might add) for the good of the community and yes, somewhat selfishly, for the good of the hosts so that we might be able to use some of our time for the other important things in life like….work, study and……family.

Bodge
07-12-2012, 02:03 PM
I agree the frustration is there, it requires quite a bit of free time but for the most part it is done out of the enjoyment of the game. The people who turn up and play are just as important as those who organise things and their opinions matter too.

Criticism of decisions is valid, it helps lead to change for the better if such things are discussed.

Draakon
07-12-2012, 02:10 PM
When there's change, there's always bitching and whining because that's what makes us human. We usually don't like change, hence the mass hysteria. I think both sides just need to calm down and get on with their lives as usual.

kataras
07-12-2012, 02:50 PM
@Tigershark: I don't think anyone ever disregarded yours or anyone else's time and efforts. I am very grateful for it and I can appreciate how hard it must be while working/having a family etc.

However, this is not a contest of who gives more, is it? If for example I put my whole paycheck for the running of the server, would I have more of a say than now? I don't think so. If I quit my job and take up all the responsibilities of hosting etc, would I have the right to take it to the direction I want? Again, I don't think so. Hosting and organizing is important, but so is the player base, right? And 'contribution'? Is this a pension fund? This is something we're supposed to do to have fun, it's not a company... One thing I dislike about groups like ShackTac is their stupid corporate/marketing vocabulary and mentality. It's a f**|*|*|*ing group to play games, no more no less. (Anyway this has nothing to do with this discussion)

Also, describing some legitimate concerns as 'complaining' or as 'bitching and whining' like Draakon, does not give any credibility to your argumentation. I would say it does just the opposite. I cannot speak for the rest, but as far as I am concerned it was an opportunity to air some thoughts and not complain. As I said, I don't have time or the inclination do take part in the running of this group, so I was not complaining or criticizing. I just thought it would be a good opportunity to discuss some things. For sure, some replies might have been a bit aggressive or overboard, but I do think they underline some legitimate concerns...

I guess having a more relaxed Thursday is a starting point and, as someone else rightly pointed out, with the current numbers it might be difficult to organize a more relaxed day. We' ll see how it goes.

And for the record, this is not a personal attack on you and I don't really care about socialist jokes, brands or mergers. We play together anyway for some time now, I enjoyed it a lot and personally I would not want that to change.

Bodge
07-12-2012, 03:00 PM
I think you are right about things being a bit overboard, the thread would benefit from trying to focus on what people would like to change/keep the same/do. Measured responses are helpful, though Tiger has a valid point with regards to how de-motivating it can be.

Macaco
07-12-2012, 05:31 PM
Posted some replies above.

1) Points taken. Though the feeling that folk is absorbing arps I think is something that will linger (at least for me) regardless of what reasons or logic are thrown at it just because of the overall perception of it all.

2) I'll give an example. Regarding mumble vs TS: among the people who care at all, it seems most of them prefer mumble. But you (I say you because you are the most vocal host in this thread but my meaning is the folk/arps decision makers as a whole) are saying "No, It's going to be TS, Mumble sucks." without even considering a vote or poll or seeing what kinda thoughts the user base as a whole have. Then in the same posts saying "If you have any concerns, feel free to raise them with us". Now I don't care about mumble vs TS (they are both shit), they are an example of this, not the central point of it.

3) It rhymes with socialist agrarian utopia... I was trying to be clever, I thought that was obvious.

4) I personally don't have my ability to think diminished when there are people talking so maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.


snip

I don't think anyone is trying to downplay anything the admins do. To say none of us contribute to hosting though, have you ever asked if anyone else wants to, or opened it to more people? I would gladly "step up" to do it, but no one knows who I am, I have no special arma skills, coding or otherwise, and probably wouldn't even be considered for it.

The issue I think a lot of people are feeling is they essentially woke up one morning and suddenly their favorite arma community was different. No warning(that I saw), no public opinion polls, just up and changed one day. That will always create friction.

Also I don't think I ever said it but congrats on the baby.

Kefirz
07-12-2012, 05:51 PM
Can't we all just get along?

It feels like all of this is splitting the community.

Bodge
07-12-2012, 05:54 PM
2. We have given the reasoning behind why TS3 is more beneficial. It isn't people just saying mumble sucks and that is it. If we give it a go and it causes genuine problems then there is reason to see what we can do about it but there is not giant majority in favour either way and the functionality of CC in TS is very useful in sessions. As to the dismissing of comments I haven't seen many instances of that in here, we are well aware of the thoughts on mumble/TS as we have had this discussion many times before.

3. It wasn't massively obvious.

4. It is not the ability to think so much as allowing people to talk without having to fight through banter to ask/tell people stuff.

Head
07-12-2012, 10:06 PM
Regarding stepping in as host, i have numerous hinted on it.


But alas for i am useless or something <3

Nullkigan
07-12-2012, 11:44 PM
Head, you were never called up for two reasons: your posting style is wildly variable (there's a mods night event you did the AAR thread for which was completely unintelligible to anyone) and you get as angry as I do. Calling for suicide charges too often gets silly! Also you never know who reads these things.

--

On TS3 vs Mumble, the hosts picked TS3 for the following reasons:
- Hotkey CC toggle (something the mumble devs saw no value in)
- Extensions for mass moving people (because "IT IS A JOKE" like to push people around)
- The rest of the Arma community uses it for ACRE *

Whereas with mumble you have
- other people playing different games on the same server (which is cool; even when I played arma every day, I played other stuff too)
- It also has a working overlay for more people. The only one I ever got to work for TS3 caused me to crash after an hour or so.
- Better default settings. It's almost like the mac of voip, except free! (this does bite both ways if you really need a tonne of scripting extensions)
- MuMo (https://gitorious.org/mumble-scripts/mumo), which resulted in the BF2 PR version of mumble AFAICT, but never quite got off the ground for ARMA.
- Also built-in positional audio, though BIS need to fix it so you don't need Jay2ARMAlib to make it reliable.

--

Now, to reply to the * and reply to the comments about Folk having a bigger presence in the armaverse (THIS IS STORY TIME, NOT ARGUMENT TIME). I'm mostly trying to explain why I think that ARPS was the bigger 'brand' (and as has already been pointed out, Folk and ARPS were both mentioned in Dizzles' ShackTac post):

ARPS never recruited from the armaverse. It never had a group/recruitment on the forums, and any posts on there that mentioned ARPS were mostly related to bugs or mission scripting. I'm stretching to think of any of those beyond incidental F2 development stuff. This was pretty much intentional.

Recruiting through the 'usual' channels is pretty difficult. You have to compete with the big guys like ShackTac, UO, TG, etc. Then there are the mid-sized national teams like LDDK. Then there are the smaller interest groups, cliques, etc etc etc. You have to have a great pitch, something unique to sell you and put in a tonne of effort. And good luck getting anyone to give up their precious ACE/ACRE/TarantulaBots or whatever. Hell, you use anything other than Teamspeak and you get flamed for doing it wrong. One of the more prolific modders in charge of ACE and Domi had a ragepost against Dwarden on the CIT because Dwarden wanted to implement open communication protocol hooks (which would let any voip software basically do positional and some other stuff without resorting to hacky addon workarounds).

When ARPS was very young it was basically all domi and banter all the time. Nobody else wanted a piece of that but it was new and novel enough that we got loads of fun out of it. As things dragged on and we set up our own server we tried to organise things such that every mission didn't devolve into the two dreaded conga lines: Crates and Revives! This move produced some of the most enduring content for the ARPS vets. However, we wanted to get bigger and share the love.

The thing about arma is that it IS pretty daunting. It's walking around for 40 minutes and getting shot out of nowhere over and over again. It's getting killed by walking onto the wrong piece of geometry. It's lining up a perfect shot, killing a dude, then getting rifle grenaded by a dozen of his buddies from just out of sight.

Our pitch was more along the lines of "play with us, we don't require competence, we don't require mods, we don't require salutes, we do require fun". We wanted to pick up new players instead of the ones who'd been playing since Op Flash. Partly because vets'd expect things being done a certain way which wouldn't necessarily mix with our definitions of fun. Being on RPS is great for that - with enough prodding Jim'd post a front page article and we'd get 40-60 new faces who'd "bought the game but never tried it". By simply being part of an existing community, which was in turn sustained by a site that gets hundreds of thousands of unique visits each day, we had/have massive exposure. It has to be said that the return rate was pretty piddling compared to the popularity of the site until DayZ, but arma is a niche game after all.

This neatly avoided the entire zero-sum game and politicking/drama of the main bisforums scene. We never, ever demanded exclusitivity, and made fun without dicking around the goal. When dicking around got too much I invented TT. (Read: Stole the name from somewhere else... I think it was the goons)

When Fer first approached us he was pretty surprised we were insistent on revive missions. When I explained that we basically wanted to have fast fun, keep new people happy and above all make sure nobody sat on their thumbs for 40 minutes to an hour he agreed. In response he made Lechtenfield(sp), the ?only F2/Folk revive mission to date. It was pretty good fun and from there things progressed until you get to where we are now.

(Coincidentally I first started to fall out of love with arma when we played a big 80 man coop and I got to spend three hours shouting at people to space themselves out and then driving a truck full of ammo around to resupply BTR60s. I didn't see a single goddamn enemy or fire a round. Funnily enough I've never, ever met a person who wanted a logistics role in a truck, yet you'll find three dozen people who will drop everything should you mention a chopper.)

I'm sure nobody is still reading by this point so I'll spare the details of the ARPS/Folk relationship.

I also won't go into the backstory of Folk, because it's kind of a personal thing for Fer, Tiger and Headspace. But I will say that within a month or two of putting a standing invite to RPS players there were basically 3-4 of the original Folk guests per session, down from about 15. Some nights it was just Fer. Folk was also originally a vetted, invite-only "community" (insert page on what Folk was/wasn't here) and running on borrowed resources so the intermingling of the groups helped them a lot more than you may realise from the BISforums thread.

--

For making things more welcoming to newcomers, all I can say is I've had some pretty bad rageouts in the past about people misrepresenting the group and being offensive to new players. There's no real way to ensure new people get slotted with good FTLs because nobody wants to FTL all the time. There's also usually a shortage of FTLs so people have to step up despite not being confident in the role and being unable to keep on top of new guys, orders from the top, their team and their own status all at once.

We never really put up any training material here because that stuff gets terrifying. Tell someone who just bought the game blind to read the TTPP (which is probably the best training material out there) and a good number of people will decide it's just not worth the effort. Others will love it, then play and take an unlucky bullet early on, have a horrible time and uninstall. Summarised stuff is good, but really the attitude was always "play with us, all you need to be able to do is WASD and listen/ask questions". It's why the welcome message for the server included the most basic of "use / for text chats" for so long.

--

(Also Kataras deserves a nod for saying he isn't a massive donor when he not only is but went to unusual lengths to make his donations)

--

Other stories I have:
Why Dizzle TERRIFIES me.
How I "pissed off" TG/UO without knowing about it.

(Neither is very long, but I think this is enough of a wall of text for now)

Wafflynumber
07-12-2012, 11:50 PM
The past 4-5 months of playing with folk/arps have been some of the best of my entire time in gaming. The folk session on sunday nights is something I always look forward to. The tactical tuesday session was what got me back into arma. I've made good friends here

We should stop this. We all play arma. We all enjoy arma. We should continue to play and enjoy arma together. I do not want to see this oh so wonderful community fall apart due to a petty spat over names, a VoIP programme and level of seriousness.

I may be overstating it a bit, but hopefully you get my point.

Ferrard Carson
08-12-2012, 01:51 AM
To anyone who fears the worst, please don't!

I'm hosting this coming FA Sunday Session, I'm yakking it up with Tiger tomorrow to make sure we don't repeat the hilarity of the last workshop's Strela-to-the-tail-rotor (chalk that up to me not paying attention to what groups I was spawning and that f***ing broken teleport action), I'm lining up the missions now, and hopefully I'll have a special treat to close it all out on if all goes well. If not, then, well, I'll improvise somethin'!

Please come! Have fun! The technical issues and socialist agrarian issues can continue to be ironed out, but Sunday is Funday. This Yank can't wait to send you all to your bloody deaths.

~ Ferrard

Edited for EMPHASIS!

Kelron
08-12-2012, 02:10 AM
It's going to be the same people playing either way, massive drama is silly.

That said, I never saw ARPS as a clan or formal group. It's a bunch of people who enjoy playing Arma together. Talk of mergers and such seems bizarre to me. Whatever happens, the gameplay is going to remain pretty much the same. All you're doing is adding extra barriers that are going to put off new players. RPS is a popular site, many new players in the past were people who already had forum accounts here or visited the Steam chat. Folk is an Arma group. A friendly and welcoming one, but outwardly, to a new player, they'll look like pretty much any other gaming clan. Even if the content is the same, trying to make a brand out of what was a bunch of people playing games will dissuade some from joining.

thekev506
08-12-2012, 08:48 AM
We should stop this. We all play arma. We all enjoy arma. We should continue to play and enjoy arma together. I do not want to see this oh so wonderful community fall apart due to a petty spat over names, a VoIP programme and level of seriousness.


No further comment required.

Bodge
08-12-2012, 12:34 PM
Whereas with mumble you have
- other people playing different games on the same server (which is cool; even when I played arma every day, I played other stuff too)


For making things more welcoming to newcomers, all I can say is I've had some pretty bad rageouts in the past about people misrepresenting the group and being offensive to new players. There's no real way to ensure new people get slotted with good FTLs because nobody wants to FTL all the time. There's also usually a shortage of FTLs so people have to step up despite not being confident in the role and being unable to keep on top of new guys, orders from the top, their team and their own status all at once.

Just a minor thing wrt the mumble thing posted:
I am not sure if this is a significant reason to use it for sessions though. Mumble can used outside of sessions still.

For the other paragraph I just wish to make it known I strongly agree with it. It is something that has been done by hosts (being short with people for the most part) and non-hosts as well.

Head
08-12-2012, 02:00 PM
Nullkigan tell us the story how you pissed of TG/UO

Wafflynumber
08-12-2012, 02:19 PM
Nullkigan tell us the story how you pissed of TG/UO

Ooh! I want to hear that!

Super‹
08-12-2012, 02:58 PM
I third to hear the story from uncle Null!

Macaco
08-12-2012, 03:01 PM
Nullkigan tell us the story how you pissed of TG/UO

No, tell us the story of why dizzle (god that is so much easier to type than dyslexczi) scares you! Does he sacrifice virgins? is that how he got so good at choppering?

Halop
08-12-2012, 03:07 PM
Who is Dizzle?

Ferrard Carson
08-12-2012, 03:12 PM
Who is Dizzle?
The elder god of ArmA itself... Dslyecxi. Found helpfully at the site (http://dslyecxi.com) with the url that no one can ever type because it's his name :D

~ Ferrard

Halop
08-12-2012, 03:17 PM
The elder god of ArmA itself... Dslyecxi. Found helpfully at the site (http://dslyecxi.com) with the url that no one can ever type because it's his name :D

~ Ferrard
Oh, the shacktac person. Got it :D

trumpet
08-12-2012, 03:47 PM
Nullkigan tell us the story how you pissed of TG/UO

What is TG/UO?

Wafflynumber
08-12-2012, 03:49 PM
Tactical gamer/ United operations I think...

Nullkigan
08-12-2012, 04:08 PM
Oh god, did I really offer to do that? Well I guess it at least means someone read some part of that wall of text.

Neither story is actually as interesting as it may sound, and I have to be very careful about the dizzle one for fear of being unfairly demonising/outright libellous/breaking trusts.

Weíll start with TG/UO.

--

(At least, I think it was TG/UO, itís been so long... Iím suddenly inclined to think UO is a euro group so the following doesnít make sense, but I know it was two of the bigger communities so Iíll use those names for now)

Now, back in the day, TG and UO came to an agreement with regards to hardware: Theyíd share an absolutely massive server through a single provider, whichíd let them defray costs and reduce administration overheads. It also let them keep their subcommunities, such as the TG aerosim wings, together. Theyíd still play separately because they had different crowds and approaches, but the idea was that theyíd both work better and cheaper because of it. I have no idea if this is still how they operate. I havenít paid any attention at all to other groups and only realised Iíd committed a minor faux pas by accident.

Up in that second wall of text I explain what a good idea it was to go through RPS for recruitment rather than get into a drama-laiden fight on the bisforums. I wasnít the only one who had this ďgreat ideaĒ.

In the very early days of what would become ARPS we had a lot of trouble with the server. BIS had donated a bunch of copies of Arrowhead to RPS to hand out as prizes just as BAF was releasing and Jim had organised a free server for a month with a cool provider called Jest (Jestservers.com). His plan was that heíd host a big session and write it up to give people one of those ďyou should really play thisĒ diaries we all love.

(I somehow won one of the copies, and even got a mention in the eventual write up, though I donít think they ever got around to handing out the copies of BAF that were supposed to be awarded for noteworthy play)

However, ARMA is not the most bug-free of games and to top it off some of the missions available on default dedicated servers are designed for listenservers and can cause the server to hang or crash. We bitched about this a bit. Probably a lot.

Now the leadership(s) of the TG/UO consortium had seen that this hugely popular pc gaming website was suddenly promoting their game of choice and that it wasnít mentioning anything about the modding scene or communities, both of which are a huge part of arma to most players. To top it off a bunch of stupid newbies were complaining about the server being shit. They had the great idea of offering to help out the RPS crowd at their own expense, with a natural side-effect of an influx of new players to those groups. Let me be clear here: Iím pretty sure they were going to offer an actual server for designated sessions, not just invite people along to join the TG/UO groups. A pretty damn nice offer!

Except some idiot went and ruined it all by shilling for donations to set up an independent server, which being an explicit part of the RPS community sort of put a damper on potential incidental recruiting.

Itís ok though, such endeavours die all the time and itís not like RPS itself is going to disappear overnight. Plus this stuff isnít as easy as it sounds! The config files are insane! (NOBODY SAID OR THOUGHT THIS, I AM EMBELISHING FOR DRAMATIC EFFECT)

Then I started pinging for help on a few alternative forums, trying to find more details on setup than were covered in the Kellyís Heroes guides. I bumped into the chief server admin for those groups and more and eventually wheedled a really useful wall of text out of him.

Eventually he signed off with ďitís kind of funny, I didnít realise you were with that group. Iíd already been instructed by the leadership to help those guys outĒ.

It was quite a bit later when I puzzled out the possible implications of that.

Now, saying I pissed them off is making a mountain out of a molehill. Iíve never been in contact with anyone from either group with the exception of that one admin and he didnít say anything more than that one throwaway phrase. Iím pretty sure that the upper echelons of the consortium didnít actually care that much, want us to fail, etc etc etc. But itís also quite possible that if proto-ARPS hadnít have fumbled around like it did one of the other groups would have gotten a mention and all the players. That was a pretty big boon for us around the time of the DayZ-gasm.

--

On Dizzle:
(I have never spoken to him so as I disclaimed above I have to be very careful to not misrepresent him)

If youíve watched the ShackTac videos you know a bit about Dizzle (yeah I could paste his name from the clipboard, but I like this way better). Heís very, very calm and methodical. Heís got great attention to detail (see the TTPP). Heís downright ruthless under the right conditions (see the video where he tricks someone on the other team into giving away all of that teams secrets before executing him, itís pretty funny but holy shit). Heís also very, very driven (He, and shacktack as a whole, create content. Videos, training material, mods, etc). Then thereís the building of shacktac itself.

If youíve ever thought about joining shacktac you might be aware of the application process. You apply, giving a bunch of details which are meant to tell them whether or not youíll be a good fit for the community or a disruptive outlier. If you pass that, you get a one-to-one interview. Itís pretty in-depth as a recruitment process but obviously it works for ST and creates the kind of community Dizzle wants.

However, the applications are not taken at face value. Why would they be? Itís easy to google stuff. So thereís basically a background check process too Ė the name gets put into a search engine and checked. If there are related names recognised by the checkers, they might get hit up and asked for character references, that sort of thing.

Honestly itís probably not that bad, but it does get to sounding a bit like ďinternet detectiveĒ / ďdoxĒ work, even if it is well intentioned. If he wasnít working on VBS2 I could quite well see him working for an intelligence agency and itís a little scary because it makes a computer game just so serious.

(NOTE: Different strokes for different folks and all. Itís not like heís making everyone get a full body tattoo of his beard or something. Itís just an approach that is a little creepy in my view.)

Iíve also been told Dizzle likes to keep an eye on other communities, just in general. It helps to predict the metacommunity, and if you know another group is folding you can predict an increase in applications or something. The general observation thing is how Folk and ARPS got a mention on the shacktac blog Ė we hadnít asked for it, it came out of the blue.

So yeah, all of this gives him a bit of mysticism that makes me slightly afraid of him.

(Also cannot confirm or deny sacrificing of virgins for wicked sick skills. It works in Dominions 3 so why not?)

Synesthesia
08-12-2012, 05:05 PM
Heís downright ruthless under the right conditions (see the video where he tricks someone on the other team into giving away all of that teams secrets before executing him, itís pretty funny but holy shit)


Ha! Anyone got the link to this?

HA! nevermind, i found it. Here it is!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wreehnhlRmk

Poor, poor fellow.

kalelovil
08-12-2012, 05:08 PM
Ha! Anyone got the link to this?
ShackTac - John's Introduction to ShackTac
http://youtu.be/-tf3ArH8ZNI

mike
08-12-2012, 09:33 PM
The elder god of ArmA itself... Dslyecxi.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30YW3wgRvyI

Nullkigan
09-12-2012, 12:03 AM
Let’s stop making shit up and explain how shit got made up: How ARPS got those Aesthetics (name, logo, etc).

Easy one, this.

--

Most RPS related groups take the Rock, Paper, Shotgun pun and apply it to the game in question. Rifleman, Platoon, Sergeant? Eh. Rifleman, Pilot, Sniper? Ehhh.

When you start shilling for donations you have to be absolutely clear what the donations are relevant to. Once money is involved, things get serious. Remember that you can donate/subscribe to RPS itself. So because I was insecure about people accidentally donating to the wrong place (this never happened) I wanted us to be SLIGHTLY distinct. Also I was under the impression that we’d need permission to use a name-a-like or something. Turns out Jim and co don’t mind, I guess.

Anyway, nothing really seemed fit so we opted for the simplest: ARMA, (with), Rock, Paper, Shotgun. Regularly picked up as ARma Paper Shotgun. Also you can say the acronym itself like harps with a silent H and pretend you’re DED POSH WOT. There were probably some other early interpretations as well. The word “Auxiliary” rings a bell, but that might have been because I’ve been reading up on Rome again. RPS A-Team? Maybe. Don’t think so, though. Anyway, you get the point – there wasn’t an idea except “unique and special snowflake that is actually the same”.

The Herosquad stuff came later from former players Dartt and Ansob, mostly by osmosis. A subset of players started using “ARPS Herosquad” as a sort of joke after a couple of people had a really fun time during a frontpaged event and basically won the mission for the rest of the team. It’s sort of a worthless a gimmick/meme suffix along the lines of “Bravo Squad Best Squad” or something. It wasn’t offensive, politically loaded or completely asinine/stupid, so we made use of it. Unlike ARPS, A-RPS, etc etc it’s a nice little phrase that wasn’t already being domain squatted. Herosquad.org was purchased and basically to give us a nice easy redirect for IPs and info without having to fit everything into the first post of the single thread we had on the old wordpressbb forums RPS had back then. (( Apparently there’s more to the Herosquad thing that goes all the way back to Planetside 1 for Dartt and co, but I don’t know anything beyond that and it never became an issue that we hijacked it. ))

As far as I know, the only people to ever read the site were myself, a couple of steam chatters and the then-admins-now-hosts who proofed and helped provide the content.

It also hosted the squad.xml, including the logo.

The squad.xml is a neat little webpage that the game can be read and use to give players an in-game description, a logo. Most usefully, it can describe the group they’re part of. It’s free advertising and you get a cool picture on your truck when you’re set up properly. It also has the slight benefit of implying “these people hang out here a lot, you might want to listen to them” when used in conjunction with a server name or message of the day / connection notice.

I’d made myself one when I first got arma2 and spent a few weeks playing on a mix of public servers, heavily featuring that one Russian server with 500 slots (Berzerk?). I was playing solo at the time and the game was still new / buggy so I didn’t really click with MP but I thought the customisation thing was pretty cool. So I used that as a template and fixed up a new one for the group and offered to stick people on it. Washington pulled together the logo on request.

It might look like some horribly clichťd world-police gun-eagle-globe patch from a distance, but there was a little more thought to it than that. Obviously the gun is a shotgun. The bird is actually a crow. The default dead state in BIS’ games is respawning as a bird. In OpFlash it was a seagull. In Arma2 it got changed to a crow. (I’m not sure what it was in Arma1, probably the crow again? I skipped from OpFlash to A2).

That’s right, even when we played nothing but unstructured, over-gunned revive missions the group was always confident in (our ability to avoid) success. So much so that a sign of failure was in the logo!

(The rest of the logo is pure artistť-ry by Wash, who was going to have real difficulty fitting the shotgun and crow elements together without some sort of background element. I don't think even he can remember the exact process these days.)

Next was the motto. There was a motto? Yeah, there were a few. The first one to not just be a repeat of the ARPS name was “Non Audi Alexum”, or “Don’t Listen To Alex”. Alex was an early regular who liked to “fly” choppers. Into the ground. One time he managed to take out not one, but TWO choppers full of people in one go. He still has a reputation for crashing things. Anyway, injokes suck so we decided to replace it. A player who had recently returned from military service proposed “Spectumur Agendo”, translating to “Let us be judged by our actions”. Turns out that’s actually used by a few military units, but the intent was to say “Look at us have fun, why don’t you join in?”, not present ourselves as a mimic/realism community like the 99th Virtual MEU or whatever.

Again I don’t think that was ever picked up by anyone independently. It did get printed below the logo on some vehicles and aircraft, but the text was too long so a couple of characters would get cut off.

The descriptions people got on the squad.xml varied a lot.

A couple of them I took requests for. Some are straight up compliments (Washington’s “Superior Scenariosmith” was put in place after he made the first in-house mission) or complaints (Helios has “I WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU FOR THAT HEADSHOT” after he sniped me in an adversarial where I’d just slaughtered an entire enemy fireteam and was looting the corpses. I'd have been more offensive if he'd been on my team at the time...).

Other times I'd get a request and twist it into something silly (Unaco wanted “First one in, last one out”, so I added “the buffet never saw it coming”).

Most were just my random insanity.

Harlander got “There can only be VON”. Highlander? In-game VoiceOverNetwork was unreliable as hell at the time so why not? Harakka got “Cutting the stomach, slicing the pie, staying frosty” from my reading his name as Hara-kiri and his professing a love for SWAT (use the LASH, pup!). Anthile used an avatar with a monocle and got “Utterly Monoculous”. Ebass got “No, YOU shut up” for his horrible, horrible microphone noises. ShowMeTheMonkey got an obvious “Zoologist? No, just a terrible criminal.” And so on.

The only thing left was a theme tune.

Unofficially I considered the group theme tune to be the intro song from Cannon Fodder.
War! Never been so much fun. Go to your Brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun. War!


I was the only one to think this was awesome though and it was only ever used in the single video I (badly) edited together. Kind of a shame, really. Though I did later make in-game binds to play a couple of riffs from a remix version of the track.

So that’s everything I can remember on the aesthetics of the group.

Head
09-12-2012, 03:45 AM
Lets not forget "PHP phrrrt".

egg651
09-12-2012, 02:06 PM
PSA: I am now running "Throwback Thursdays" (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?6978-Throwback-Thursdays) in the style of pre-Folk/DayZ Tactical Tuesday. This means:

Less people
Less srsbsns
Revive
Mumble

Thursdays, 7:30PM UK time (same as the other sessions, but on Thursday). So yeah, if you prefer that kind of playstyle, join us for that. If you prefer Folk style, play on Sundays and Tuesdays. If you don't care play on both. There's no reason that this community has to be exclusive in the way it plays/enjoys the game.

Edit: On using mumble - Some people, myself included, simply prefer it to TS3. Personally I'm a huge fan of its capabilities in audio attenuation (especially compared to TS3), and I know many prefer mumble's overlay. Other things mumble has going for it in my book are its sheer familiarity, and that it's an open source project.

It seems that the main argument for TS3 is the way it manages CC, and it's a valid one. I never had any issues putting up with the way mumble does things, but that said it is indeed cumbersome and complicated (particularly in setting up) relative to TS. It's all down to whether the bad outweighs the good, and when we had a similar discussion I seem to remember mumble winning the popular vote.

All of this is a moot point however (as indeed is the rest of this thread), as it seems that all the decisions have already been made; and that's what disappoints me most. Why were we not having this discussion sooner, before any "final sessions" or other such nonsense? I don't really check the forums that much so there may have been a poll I missed, but on the other hand I'm not willing to be Arthur Dent having his planet destroyed because he didn't check the demolition orders in his local planning department in Alpha Centauri.

Bodge
09-12-2012, 06:02 PM
The only major change is the move to TS3, lets just see how it goes. If it is a massive problem then changing things again in the future is not a massive issue but for now TS3 makes in session changes (moving people, disabling CC etc) easier and it is a bit easier for anyone new to CC as well. It makes little sense using two voip so lets try this for a bit.

Nullkigan
11-12-2012, 09:39 PM
Have another history essay, this one revolving around hardware. It might well be my last as Iím running out of ideas and donít really fancy describing our evolution through M16 ACOG/MAAWS to M110/SMAW to Mk17 RCO EGLM/Utility to AK 74 to AK 74 Kobra (which took us from 8 man squads with in-squad marksmen, medics and engineers down to the 4 man sections in use today along with changing how we viewed revive). Also, this one is BLOODY LONG.

--

Over the years we went through several boxes. Iíve always maintained that as I rent them, take the donations, and so forth, I am the last authority. This was to avoid drama (see how well that worked out for me?)

It was also because I considered running a single server a surefire path to disaster. People eventually lose interest and move on. Arma2 is actually a real surprise in some ways because I enjoyed it for so long and others continue to do so. That said, if you check the names (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Ajk5hqfNdkxddE50a2xWaWFHcUk3VFpGTzUzRFFPa 1E&single=true&gid=3&output=html) (slightly out of date for REASONS) on the donations, a good proportion of donors have indeed stopped playing.

So if we couldnít run a single server we could run multiple ones and use the overall effect to get sufficient donations to run the server, right? Sort of like how Game Service Providers rent out a dozen different game servers on a single box. Weíve had instances of Minecraft, Brink, Red Orchestra 2, Mechwarrior: Living Legends, Mount & Blade: Warband and Killing Floor under the (A)RPS brand. None of them really earned any money but they were all fun for a while.

Letís go back in time.

When Jimís server from Jest ran out we got an offer to continue using it at the standard rate. By that point we knew that it was a hassle to maintain Arma servers and we were also vaguely aware that mods would probably require intervention by a hardware level admin (eg Jest himself), though JestServers is actually pretty great with Arma as they have some custom utilities that make things easier. The servers on offer were also in America and for a premium we could have affinity to a single, dedicated core. We could just about afford a 30 slot server. Or we could go elsewhere.

Most Game Service Providers/GSPs donít offer Arma as a slotted server because it doesnít fit the profitable pattern of ďhigh bandwidth, low cpuĒ. A machine that can run 200+ good slots for CounterStrike: Source canít handle Arma at all. Most GSPs like to buy prefab rack servers rather than bespoke setups. A select few go with higher end kit like Blades using Xeons, which are almost as good as bespoke stuff or desktop setups. Others grab cheaper unbranded 1Us that were cobbled together using parts cannibalised from the sale of old machines during the annual IT department upgrade at a local office of some multinational. The common factor is the use of processors designed for reliability and low energy consumption rather than raw power. Game server hardware lags Ďbehindí because most servers donít need high end stuff. Physics are often client side, for example. It was only recently, when 64-player Red Orchestra 2 and Battlefield 3 matches got popular, that GSPs started shelling out for some more powerful kit.

Thereís no real upper limit to the CPU an Arma server instance will eat. For most of the missions weíve played, from 20-70 players with a proportional number of AI, Iíve seen the process eat up the entirety of one core and spread another 2-3 GHz of demand across other cores. Performance varies by mission a lot, but with some few notable exceptions we never had any real issues. A single instance will use up to about 700 megs of RAM, but Iíve seen it peak at 1.2 gigs or so on the Free server... usually shortly before a crash. You also need about 20-25 gigs of HDD space as the server uses all of the files of the client. I forget what the bandwidth usage tends towards, but a 100mbit line is generally standard and more than sufficient for well over a hundred simultaneous user and multiple voip servers. Windows is preferential simply because sometimes the linux server binaries lag behind a patch or contain unexpected bugs.

Back when we were looking to rent our first box most offerings were either a dual or quad 2.00 to 2.40 GHz CPU machines, commonly coming with about 100 GB of HDD and 1-4 GB of RAM. There were still a hell of a lot of Q6600 (Quad 2.66 GHz P4s) floating around, repurposed into new shells. I spent several days compiling various offers from different providers. I fired off a dozen or more emails and quickly got to know who the good providers were. Some never responded to any queries at all, others replied in ALL CAPS AND MISREAD THE QUESTION. Still others tried selling virtual servers (i.e. software on the machine splits the assets of the machine amongst users) as full servers (this doesnít work unless you pay for the expensive software, as otherwise load spikes will interfere with other users. Fine on cheap webservers, useless for processor intensive activities like game servers). Two providers stood out: JestServers (dude REALLY knows his stuff and how to sell it, but his dedicated hardware choices tended to simply beyond the price point of many) and KillerCreation.

I spent our entire first wave of donations on a one-month lease of a dual 2.8 GHz P4, 2 GB of RAM, 100gb HDD box in London. It was pretty terrible and within a couple of days Iíd double-dipped into my own pocket and upped us to a quad 2.66 Xeon machine (new chip, so the lower clock rate STILL did more lifting than the 2.8s) with 4 GB of RAM. KillerCreation were really great about the upgrade process, we got credit for the unused time on the weaker machine and a couple of days to transfer the files over. The new machine ran much better and towards the end of the month people realised that things were working out and actually started to donate a decent chunk of change.

Trivia for you: the server files used today originally came from the KillerCreation internal ftp, and were taken from an image of the German release of Arma2 prior to the English/international one. It was just so much easier to transfer the data between servers rather than upload a couple of DVDs myself. Copy protection applies only during patching for servers, and it only takes a few moments to find the correct registry entries to put your own key into the server! (Yes, all above water)

We stuck with KillerCreation for what I think was about eight months. Weíd put up a mumble server because teamspeak3 was a pain in the rear end and wanted to know all of my personal details in addition to being clunkier. Itíd only be much later that DrPiD and I would experiment enough to figure out how to restrict whispers by token, though.

Around our third or fourth frontpageíd event I asked in the comments for mission ideas. Enter Fer, who linked the Folk mission packs and recommended Fort, Moonless and Bend. Massively different from the repeats of Domination weíd been forced into before due to player counts. Also a hell of a lot easier for the server to run.

Shortly thereafter we had our first joint session. I later learned that folk was renting slots from Jest. We spent some time discussing the state of the world and eventually came to an agreement. For a small monthly sum (which I never actually enforced and ended up being a case of "Fer hosts stuff and we don't ask him for money"), Folk would move onto our hardware. This gave Folk hardware level access and effectively unlimited slots instead of the 20ish they had at the time. I guaranteed a dedicated core at all times and pointed out that so long as we were doing joint sessions, thereíd be at least one other core free at all times, plus two that werenít accounted for at all (but could conceivably have been in use for other games).

With the enhanced playercount and slightly more money I decided that the best way to get out of my Doctoral Thesis Blues was to look at the current hardware market. This time instead of looking at GSPs I went straight to datacentres. At this point, a 'little' company called OVH had started offering Sandy Bridge machines with SSDs. Cheap for what they were, expensive for our budget, but hella powerful. Oldmanbob had helped set up serverdoc, which let us manage server processes a little better, but I was still under the impression that our then-current box was struggling.

The following paragraph is in bold because IT IS (mostly) A JOKE:
OVH offered a free months trial to business clients of any server they wished. So Fer got his papers back from the Cayman Islands and asked for a trial on the behalf of Folk and ARPS. We got an i5-2400 (quad 3.1 GHz), 16 GB of RAM and 2x1TB HDDs running under linux as a free trial for a month. At Ferís request it was named K19 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_K-19).

This is where we first encountered issues with the Linux server binaries not being fully up to date. Linux is pretty awesome and I got some good stats logging and stuff running, but game developers basically assume you're hosting under Windows these days. Aside from the cases like Arma where there are sometimes bugs or delays, there are others that donít have linux binaries at all. Even given Windows (or WINE) there are some REALLY obscure requirements for server software out there. Section 8: Prejudice stands out in my memory, as that required you to run an independent instance of GFWL with a unique key. Took people quite a while to figure out how to make that work under the "multiple servers, one box" model. There was also the mess that was Red Orchestra 2. Some of the big and popular GSPs Iíd previously regarded as actually being less than stellar went on to prove themselves as such by throwing fits on the server admin mailing list about requirements and flaws that were entirely within their own heads.

One problem with Linux was the uploading of new missions. For some reason itís actually a huge amount of effort to set up an FTP on a linux box that actually locks users in directories rather than giving them free listing of the entire file structure. On Windows you use the filezilla server and "jobís a good Ďun". Linux requires obscure daemons to be installed and configured and there arenít any real readmes for it. So instead I installed a webserver stack and Head wrote a php script that, once I tidied it up, let people upload missions without having to use an FTP. (Thatís how he earned ďPHP? Phrrrrrpt.Ē as his squad.xml remark) It worked pretty well because the permissions (eg file locking) of Arma are much more forgiving under linux. You could even hot-delete missions!

But linux didnít give us flexibility to host other games and even though I wrote a guide to its usage, nobody else wanted to put up with a command line interface through PuTTy.

At the end of the Free trial month I said a regretful goodbye to KillerCreation (Justin, the main man over there, bent over backwards trying to give me a better deal but just couldnít match a Sandy Bridge machine) and budgetted up the extra cash (good GSPs like KC throw it in for free) for a Windows 2008 Web R2 box at OVH. We also switched to 2 x 128 GB SSDs at no extra cost, which helped keep disk access times down despite there now being three or four Arma instances running off a single set of files. K19-IIc (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Main_Page) was born.

The biggest non-Combined Ops resource hogs were Red Orchestra 2 (which I ended up capping at 48-50 players to avoid lag) and the Arma2 Free server, which basically needed to be set up with a 24-48 hour restart timer for fear of crashes.

Working under Windows was simply much easier for other people and thatís about where we leave off. After a little over a year(?) on the new box there are a couple of new deals from available but none have been worth the hassle of moving yet.

There are a few more months on K19-IIc before the Hosts have to figure out what theyíre doing next. Iíll be separating the mumble server from that endeavour and have stopped taking donations for anything but that. Although Iím still legally liable for K19-IIc, Iím washing my hands of the hosting business and Arma. All donations made to date, totalling over TWO THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED POUNDS have gone directly to the Arma-related hardware as promised and without massive drama. (IceRaiser is responsible for a huge proportion of that money, so be sure to thank him.)

Aside: At one point I did price up outright buying a box and putting it through collocation (i.e. paying other people to house it, power it and connect it to the internet) but decided replacement guarantees and upgrade opportunities were worth more than what weíd have saved. The decision was almost instantly vindicated when K19-IIcís power supply failed only a few months in. It was replaced four hours later at no cost to us.

--

On top of this were other incidental features I worked on because we had a server: the herosquad.org domain, multiple iterations of the website (nobody used any of them), a mission manager/hosting spreadsheet (which apparently was too complex for anyone but me to maintain despite it taking seconds for me to do so), tracking donations, and so on. At one point I hacked together a missions database that let you search by all sorts of criteria, but I never populated it.

Thus (probably) ends my tale of how being a blustering, ignorant, money-grabbing, workshy fool resulted in my having the ultimate power to ruin all of your fun.

SpecialSoup
12-12-2012, 12:33 AM
OVH are fantastic. Simply brilliant.

Until recently I was paying less than £5 a month for a virtual machine with 50Mbyte/s download speed running an insanely fast web server. (That service also killed off. No way could they be making a profit on that)

Sadly they recently killed off their budget range where you could get something with similar specs to this:


OVH offered a free months trial to business clients of any server they wished. So Fer got his papers back from the Cayman Islands and asked for a trial on the behalf of Folk and ARPS. We got an i5-2400 (quad 3.1 GHz), 16 GB of RAM and 2x1TB HDDs running under linux as a free trial for a month. At Fer’s request it was named K19 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_K-19).

running debian for under £50 a month. I ran several source engine servers on it and the only problem I ran into to was issues with Linux and source servers. I'm certainly no linux whizz and because I was running it off my own pocket with a relatively poor paying job, I didn't want to shell out the extra fee for a windows license. A shame, really.

EDIT: They still provide it, just moved to the main OVH website

It really doesn't come across as a surprise to see Folk/Arps using them too.

Macaco
12-12-2012, 04:46 AM
There are a few more months on K19-IIc before the Hosts have to figure out what they’re doing next. I’ll be separating the mumble server from that endeavour and have stopped taking donations for anything but that. Although I’m still legally liable for K19-IIc, I’m washing my hands of the hosting business and Arma. All donations made to date, totalling over TWO THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED POUNDS have gone directly to the Arma-related hardware as promised and without massive drama. (IceRaiser is responsible for a huge proportion of that money, so be sure to thank him.)
Am I incorrect as interpreting this to mean you are letting the current server expire and leaving folk/arps to fend for itself?

(that almost sounds negative, but it's not how I meant it, and it is by all means your right to leave whenever you choose to leave)

JimTheDog
12-12-2012, 08:37 AM
With the enhanced playercount and slightly more money I decided that the best way to get out of my Doctoral Thesis Blues was to look at the current hardware market.

Now I am terribly curious about what field Nullkigan was working on a thesis in.

Nullkigan
12-12-2012, 09:02 PM
Am I incorrect as interpreting this to mean you are letting the current server expire and leaving folk/arps to fend for itself?

(that almost sounds negative, but it's not how I meant it, and it is by all means your right to leave whenever you choose to leave)

Your interpretation is correct. I am not accepting further donations for the F/A server(s), which will expire when the current funds run out. The spare change will probably be passed on to whoever takes up the mantle at the end of the term, assuming nobody demands refunds. That won't be for several months as I paid for a quarter+ (to avoid having to make a payment on new years day) before this thread hit.

As a couple of people made donations explicitly for mumble I will be continuing to run that as an independent thing. Partly because I still use it myself. Hardware will change at some point, obviously.

I've long since stopped having fun with arma and obviously there's this entire thread so...



OVH are fantastic. Simply brilliant.

Mhmm. We were first directed to look at Kimsufi but they didn't have the power. In the end it was a competition between Hetzner and OVH, who it turned out bought/owned Kimsufi.

It was actually good to try a Linux box even though we ended up going with a Windows one because stuff like bash scripting is occasionally useful in my current job.


Now I am terribly curious about what field Nullkigan was working on a thesis in.

My PhD is in Structural Engineering. Tangent: It's counterproductive to have a PhD in the 'real' world, and any company that says they're hurting for Science/Tech/Eng/Maths grads is lying through their teeth.

I bet you thought I was a Psych major studying the fine art of the Troll?

Wafflynumber
12-12-2012, 09:37 PM
Can we change this thread to "Storytime with Nullkigan" and sticky it?

JimTheDog
12-12-2012, 10:38 PM
As a couple of people made donations explicitly for mumble I will be continuing to run that as an independent thing. Partly because I still use it myself. Hardware will change at some point, obviously.

Yay! I like mumble!



My PhD is in Structural Engineering. Tangent: It's counterproductive to have a PhD in the 'real' world, and any company that says they're hurting for Science/Tech/Eng/Maths grads is lying through their teeth.

I bet you thought I was a Psych major studying the fine art of the Troll?

No, that's cool. I was actually betting on something technical-but-academic. Structural Engineering sounds about right. Sadly it doesn't sound like it's necessarily something fun to quiz you about on mumble. Do you have facts about concrete, though?

Macaco
13-12-2012, 04:59 AM
My PhD is in Structural Engineering. Tangent: It's counterproductive to have a PhD in the 'real' world, and any company that says they're hurting for Science/Tech/Eng/Maths grads is lying through their teeth.

I bet you thought I was a Psych major studying the fine art of the Troll?

Nah, If you where a psych phd you would have been able to manipulate everyone this situation to your favor. :P

Kefirz
13-12-2012, 02:01 PM
Nah, If you where a psych phd you would have been able to manipulate everyone this situation to your favor. :P
Poker!

I agree with Waffle, you should make a thread "Storytime with Nullkigan'' :D