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View Full Version : Children killing children. Well, allright, yeah?



Berlin
04-06-2011, 10:15 AM
Well, guys, I'm kinda interested in your opinion.

I've seen this video yesterday and I wrote about it as Call of Duty: Childish Warfare referring to the golden ages of my/our childhood while a stick in the hands of a child was a sword and a handful of sand was a bomb. You know, those great sandbox games and I mean the real sandbox games?

The thing's that, yeah, this video got right everything that I was imagining back then - the blood, the explosions, maybe I'm fucked up but yeah, in my head and probably in the minds of my friends it was exactly like that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwrbyVaC6EU

And the problem is that we're living now in the XXI century and I can see my friends breeding and giving their damn SONS pink toys and telling them that every kind of violence is wrong. Come, what happened to you, humanity?

So the reaction was partially good and pro and partially bashing that there's nothing fun in children shooting children and that it's politically incorrect. Fuck political correctness, who cares? But one dude wrote that it's just a step for this thing to be as pervert as childporn, so well, I kinda wonder what's going on?

My country's kinda medieval so well, what do you, civilized folks think about it?

Gerbick
04-06-2011, 11:50 AM
I watched that the other day. With my kids. We all thought it was good. And they haven't gone on murder rampages. Yet.

It's exactly the kind of game kids play (I remember epic 'battles' in the field behind my dad's house, tunnelling through the long grass to ambush the enemy!). Putting some effects on a video of a normal kids game is hardly bringing society down.

There are many places in the world where kids are forced to fight in real wars. Are the same people moaning about this vid doing anything to help them?

EndelNurk
04-06-2011, 12:09 PM
I can see my friends breeding and giving their damn SONS pink toys

Genuinely don't understand what's wrong with that idea.

In re the rest of it: I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong about this sort of play. In fact one could argue that it's important in the development of the socially vital Theory of Mind. I think the reason why people tend to be unhappy about the subject is more out of a wish to shield their children from what is a very nasty reality (as mentioned by Gerbick) rather than a belief that the pretend play itself is immoral. War is a horrible thing and so people assume that pretend war is also a horrible thing. I can entirely understand why people might assume there would be a link and that all children who play at fighting will become soldiers even though I have seen no evidence of even a slight link. Parents often tend to be a little overprotective but I don't think that's a reason to be upset with them. They're likely doing their best and every parent will screw up somewhere.

solipsistnation
04-06-2011, 03:38 PM
And the problem is that we're living now in the XXI century and I can see my friends breeding and giving their damn SONS pink toys and telling them that every kind of violence is wrong. Come, what happened to you, humanity?


We've become slightly more human and slightly less hung up on forcing kids into traditional gender roles before they've even really formed an awareness of gender? My son has a pink baby doll he loves, and a pretty nice play kitchen (although I guess high-level chefs are more often male these days), AND he has toy tools and blocks and stuff too. So, let's not get all "HEY BOYS NEED TO PLAY WITH TOY GUNS, DAY ONE! POP 'EM OUT OF THE WOMB AND BAM! SWORDS!"

Berlin
04-06-2011, 03:54 PM
No, I didn't really mean this to sound like that, it wasn't really a statement of opinion etc., it was rather that... Well, if we'd watch it from a certain perspective there's no real difference between giving boys plastic kitchens and stuff and giving them toyguns, the only difference is the traditional difference of genders. Yet at the same time people who are trying to raise their children genderless are forbidding them the traditional toys such as toy guns.

What I wanted to say is that we're trying to force children into genderless roles in society, what seems to be even worse than pushing them into genders. Yes, awareness of gender is something that you develop with age, but at the same time your parents are pretty much sure what gender their child is, yeah?

ColOfNature
04-06-2011, 03:58 PM
My mum never let me have toy guns and it never did me any harm. *twitch*

Berlin
04-06-2011, 04:10 PM
Oh come on, sorry if I offended anybody, never meant to do this. I have problems phrasing my thoughts in English today ;)

NecroKnight
04-06-2011, 04:11 PM
This video is so f***ing epic. Sure it's a bit over the top, but from a child's point of view it's fun & awesome. Children don't percept this things so serious as adults do.

Simon
04-06-2011, 04:16 PM
yeah its a mad world we live in, my son cant even play British bulldog in school because its too violent he also has to call the black board a chalk board and a white board is a wipe board.


but yeah not buying boys guns and sword toys or making them play with effeminate pink toys is only going to end badly

EndelNurk
04-06-2011, 04:23 PM
(although I guess high-level chefs are more often male these days)

I think they always were.


Yet at the same time people who are trying to raise their children genderless are forbidding them the traditional toys such as toy guns.

Do you think that's the reason why? It's always seemed to me to be an issue of violence rather than one of gender.


What I wanted to say is that we're trying to force children into genderless roles in society, what seems to be even worse than pushing them into genders. Yes, awareness of gender is something that you develop with age, but at the same time your parents are pretty much sure what gender their child is, yeah?

Parents are pretty sure what sex their child is. That does not necessarily have much to do with what gender their child may be. Perhaps most important to recognise is that what parents do in this regard doesn't necessarily have much effect. Gender is a societal product and society will define the child's gender at a later date. Actions like solipsistnation's are therefore a positive step as the child is clearly enjoying himself before anything else happens.

Berlin
04-06-2011, 04:34 PM
@EndelNurk
It's the issue of violence, of course, but at the same time somehow this childish violence is pretty fun, at least for a child. It has emotions attached, it's something... alive, if you know what I mean. Can't find the right adjective. The rest of your post is of course true, yet I believe that it's rather the case of parents reacting to what the child finds interesting. It shouldn't be an agenda, no politics, no "it's wrong", it should rather be something like: "My kid's interested in drawing pictures, not throwing rocks at friends, then I should buy him some crayons".

You know, when I was growing up the issue of "it's not manly, girls do that" was pretty... common.

ColOfNature
04-06-2011, 04:35 PM
Sorry, did that come across as po-faced? I attempted a funny.

Anyhoo, I loved the video! And I think the trend towards over-protectiveness is probably damaging in the long run - if you wrap kids in metaphorical bubble wrap their whole lives they'll just grow up expecting the world to do the same. (If you wrap them in actual bubble wrap you're a terrible parent.)

On the other hand, I really didn't have toy guns growing up as my mum didn't approve, and it really didn't do me any harm. And I don't see anything wrong with giving toy guns to girls, or My Little Ponies to boys, if that's what they want. But gender roles are pretty deeply ingrained into society, and kids are extremely sensitive to these things. There's even evidence that boys - and male young of other primates - genuinely do prefer toys like building blocks and trucks, while girls and little female chimps (or whatever they were studying) are innately attracted to soft pink things.

tl; dr - they'll probably figure it out for themselves.

EndelNurk
04-06-2011, 04:48 PM
I think it still is common whether that be for good or ill.

I think we probably are not disagreeing about anything. Your child-centred approach seems similar to solipsistnation's attitude. I have no problem with pretend violence at all. As I said earlier, pretend play is vital to development. I have some reservations about the executions in the video but apart from that the video seems fine to me.

[UW]
04-06-2011, 07:19 PM
This is something I've given thought to, actually. The way children currently seem to be wrapped in cotton wool by society and their parents. Children are extremely robust and quick to heal, and I think that's for good reason. There's nothing wrong with going out and running around, falling over, climbing trees and getting cuts, bruises and scrapes in the process. I feel like modern children spend far too much time playing games or glued to the television, and it concerns me. Personally I feel like childhood is when you build your confidence in such areas, and failure to be exposed to them when your body is its most resilient can harm your self belief later in life.

As a strange analogy, I've noticed that the people who are most freaked out by bees and wasps (Sans allergics) are people who have never been stung. It's the concept of the sting that is frightening, rather than the act itself. I believe that children are being raised with very little wordly experience now, and it does concern me. Litigation culture and "health and safety gone mad" have a lot to blame for this. Councils remove all the see-saws and roundabouts from parks for fear of being sued, and school trips have to be so foolproof in their health and safety that they become interminably dull.

That's not to say that if I were a parent I would happily throw my kid down the stairs to give them some "life experience", as protecting your child is natural and healthy. But holding them too close to your bosom through their childhood might actually have a negative impact.

Berlin
04-06-2011, 07:39 PM
;1885']As a strange analogy, I've noticed that the people who are most freaked out by bees and wasps (Sans allergics) are people who have never been stung. It's the concept of the sting that is frightening, rather than the act itself. I believe that children are being raised with very little wordly experience now, and it does concern me. Litigation culture and "health and safety gone mad" have a lot to blame for this. Councils remove all the see-saws and roundabouts from parks for fear of being sued, and school trips have to be so foolproof in their health and safety that they become interminably dull.

Never thought of it before but it's a beautiful thought, man.

Baris
04-06-2011, 10:31 PM
This video is so f***ing epic. Sure it's a bit over the top, but from a child's point of view it's fun & awesome. Children don't percept this things so serious as adults do.

This. How are you people having an intelligent debate with well though out, logical points when there's that bit of awesomeness just a 'play' button away. PSHUUUU, BOOM.

westyfield
05-06-2011, 12:48 AM
My mum never let me have toy guns and it never did me any harm. *twitch*

The mother of one of my friends once told me "We never let [son] play with toy guns when he was young. We realised this was pointless the day he chewed his toast into the shape of a pistol and shot us across the breakfast table."

I don't have a problem with the video. As long as children understand that real weapons are dangerous and not simply 'cool, just like in Call of Duty!', it's fine by me.

solipsistnation
05-06-2011, 05:49 AM
No problem. 8) I've just been thinking about this a bit recently. My kid's about 20 months old, and he has a pink baby doll, a kitchen, and a toolbox. I figure if he likes things, he might as well enjoy them regardless of the traditional gender roles associated.

That's not the same thing as discouraging toy guns, though. The worry isn't that children could grow up to be soldiers but that they could grow up without a sense of the value of human life... Kind of like the things they think video games do to players.

Luna
06-06-2011, 01:26 AM
Ребята , посоветуйте , кто знает или сталкивался. Хочу купить подвеску с бриллиантом массой более карата, но знаю , что это стоит безумных денег и мне не по карману. Но читала , что существуют облагороженные бриллианты, которые ничем не отличаются от обычных, но стоят меньше в два раза. Кто-нибудь вообще держал такие в руках, они правда прекрасны ?

mpk
06-06-2011, 08:07 AM
And the problem is that we're living now in the XXI century and I can see my friends breeding and giving their damn SONS pink toys and telling them that every kind of violence is wrong. Come, what happened to you, humanity?



Um, mibbe I'm just a filthy liberal, but violence is wrong. I don't want my own son to play with any sort of toy gun as I think they're horrendous; I know that my parents where the same with me. I've been around real guns a few times (always in the hands of police, mind) and they terrify me.

That didn't stop me playing "sodies" down the park with my friends when I was a young boy, re-enacting the War all over again and generally arguing about who got shot and who should be dead.

Nothing will stop children from playing games with imaginary violence - it's how they develop and learn and establish primacy. Remember, nurseries and primary schools are just zoos with slightly less cages.

Rambling aside, it's just a music video. It's parody. Kids will be kids.

Kamikaze-X
06-06-2011, 11:20 AM
children do not perceive play fighting as violence. mainly because with children below a certain age, there is no grey, just black and white in terms of what is violence and what isn't.

play fighting with guns is just that to them- play. without physical contact a child doesn't see it as a violent act. it is rare for a child who is play fighting to use expletives or even offensive language other than 'die badguy' or whatever.

whereas when a child gets to around the age of 12+ they start to realise that violence can be in non-contact forms and either mature to the point where they see it as wrong to threaten or intimidate or just don't develop properly in that context and end up as delinquent. obviously, nature and nurture come into this a lot.

Kamikaze-X
06-06-2011, 11:24 AM
Um, mibbe I'm just a filthy liberal, but violence is wrong. I don't want my own son to play with any sort of toy gun as I think they're horrendous.

I think this is a bit of a polarised statement. It depends what the definiton of violence is in all reality. For example, are we talking mindless attacks on others with no motivation, or are we talking targeted incapacitation to protect other members of the public?

I would want my child to know the difference between that, and that one is very very wrong and that one is necessary.

mpk
06-06-2011, 07:34 PM
I would want my child to know the difference between that, and that one is very very wrong and that one is necessary.

Nope, I think I'm just a filthy liberal. Doesn't matter the justification: violence is wrong.

I know, that's incredibly idealistic and possibly also very naive but I want to live in a world where we all just get along.

solipsistnation
07-06-2011, 03:23 AM
;1885']
As a strange analogy, I've noticed that the people who are most freaked out by bees and wasps (Sans allergics) are people who have never been stung. It's the concept of the sting that is frightening, rather than the act itself.


I have been stung by bees and I still dislike it. In fact, I probably dislike it more.

I agree with most of your points about overprotective parents. Want to read more?

Here: http://freerangekids.wordpress.com/

Interesting reading from somebody who is specifically trying to push back against ridiculously protective parenting.

[UW]
07-06-2011, 08:32 AM
I have been stung by bees and I still dislike it. In fact, I probably dislike it more.

I agree with most of your points about overprotective parents. Want to read more?

Here: http://freerangekids.wordpress.com/

Interesting reading from somebody who is specifically trying to push back against ridiculously protective parenting.

Wow, thanks for this! Reading through, it's quite funny how I've managed to reach an almost identical conclusion to this person having never heard of "Free Range Kids" before. Right down to litigation culture having an impact.

As far as the bee thing goes, that was just a casual observation I've made in life. I know some people who panic so much at the sight of one they've almost crashed their car, or will literally sprint out of a room or clamber over a sofa to get away from it. In most cases if I say "Have you ever been stung by a bee?" they say "No!".

I have, it's not exactly pleasant but I generally find myself more concerned about the bee and making sure I haven't hurt it. In a similar vein, I've never actually been stung by a wasp or bee when I knew it was there. I don't try to swat them away or panic and they usually just go on about their business. I only ever get stung when I feel a tickle and go to scratch it with my hand absentmindedly, and it turns out to have been something with a stinger.

solipsistnation
07-06-2011, 02:56 PM
I was out mowing the lawn one day and discovered a nest of those yellowjackets that live in the ground. I was stung 4 or 5 times on the leg (THIS IS WHY I DON'T WEAR SHORTS EVER!) and it hurt like a bastard. I took some Benadryl and immediately passed out for six hours. Aside from the long afternoon nap, it was quite unpleasant and I do not wish to repeat the experience, even with a single sting at a time.

I don't blame people for wanting to avoid it, either. So, there you go!

Back to the topic-- just out of curiosity, how many people posting in this thread actually have children? It's the dumbest cliche, but it turns out that having your first child DOES change a lot of how you think-- all those abstract "I think we should raise a kid like this!" thoughts must finally gel into reality, and along with that suddenly you have a little creature to take care of, who is totally dependent on you for everything. It rearranges your life, and not always for the worse. (Or the better. It's just different.)

BobsLawnService
07-06-2011, 04:47 PM
That film is seven diferent types of awesome. That is all.

Oh, yeah, and I've got a kid.

Oh, and I fully intend on buying him toy soldiers and non-realistic projectile weaponry (Projectile weaponry is fun and cool but I feel slightly uneasy about giving him realistic replica type weaponry. For now anyway i want him to be able to see a clear distinction between cartoon-like play violence and realistic violence.)

Tom OBedlam
07-06-2011, 05:36 PM
Nope, I think I'm just a filthy liberal. Doesn't matter the justification: violence is wrong.

I know, that's incredibly idealistic and possibly also very naive but I want to live in a world where we all just get along.

This, we should make daisy chains together :)



On the other hand, I really didn't have toy guns growing up as my mum didn't approve, and it really didn't do me any harm. And I don't see anything wrong with giving toy guns to girls, or My Little Ponies to boys, if that's what they want.

I've used My Little Pwny* as my avatar since I was 18 (all those years ago), I'm loving seeing two other people with Ponies on here too :)

*She's called Twinklekill

http://www.b3tards.com/u/f9d89e8a11037c5bd200/pwnyv3.1.png