I'm not pissed off, I'm just an asshole. This is how I discuss things.
Originally Posted by kataras
Eeeh. Its quite dubious to suggest that Hezbollah isn't that conservative, they are just very good at PR. Anyway I agree, not all arabs are incredibly conservative. I'm making the point that a large amount are.
That's true but at the same time Hezbollah has been more progressive that we think, ie promising safety to all Lebanese regardless of religion, one of its spokespersons is a woman etc. Anyway what I tried to say was that not everyone is so religious or conservative.
That's the whole point! Surely if the west had been pulling the strings from the beginning we wouldn't have needed to send a special forces team and have MI6 agents on the ground just to make contact with the rebels. It was clear that the government had no idea what was going on and was trying to actually make first contact with the NTC.
Well there was coverage in US and EU papers about US, Qataris and NATO officials providing intel, bombing targets and overall strategy. I mean they didn't go to have tea did they? And as far as I remember there were MI5 or 6 people with them, no? And at the end of the day they re not a diplomatic team, they re special forces.
NTC already dissolved. See my response below about purging all ancien regime elements. Not a good plan.
I hope they determine their future, after all they should be the ones to do it, not a bunch of ex-regime cronies or NATO... I just don't see it yet as the only voice we hear is that of the Council...
Well that's a different matter entirely. I don't, however, think that we should shy away from the fact that our political system is far better than the one in Syria, for example. Don't let the past decade of neocon buffoonish chest-thumping make you unwilling to acknowledge just how much more progressive we are.
I never said we have to marginalise dictators... I am not sure what should be done to be honest. But I think that western (and I am not taking the West as a monolithic entity) should clean up its own house before criticizing anyone else...
I think that the young Libyans who risked being shot and bombed by the Libyan air force, who risked their lives all through this war deserve a better government. And whatever you think about western powers having deeper interests in the war, the only way they were ever going to get the government they deserved was if we intervened militarily. There's no two ways about it.
In the end people get the governments they deserve.
Sorry but that's a crock of shit. All countries have domestic problems, that doesn't mean we should abstain from any kind of forceful foreign policy. Sure, we have economic problems and a political system which is arguably beholden to moneyed special interests, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have helped out a democratic revolution against a nutjob dictator when conditions were perfect for intervention.
Its not paradise in Europe or the US, so until we/they fix their problems, I think its hypocritical to pretend we involve ourselves in situations like that.
The NTC has already dissolved itself, so yeah. What I don't understand in the slightest is why you think that Libya should completely turn its back on the only countries that actually helped it when it needed help most!?! When Gaddafi's army was walking all over the rebels, Grad rockets were falling on heavily populated civilian areas, France, Qatar and the UK were the only countries who were pushing to do something about it. Without them Gaddafi would be in power and the corpses of anyone involved in the rebellion would be jammed into mass graves somewhere deep in the desert. And you're saying that Libya should 'get rid' of these countries because of some crazy conspiracy theory you've dreamed up about them manipulating Libya in some way? Come off it.
I never said that, you misunderstood me or I didn't express myself well. I think that the only way for them to build something good, is to get rid of the Council, NATO and the Qataris... And I really hope they will do that.
No no no no no No. That is exactly what we did in Iraq, we purged any Ba'ath party member from the government and create a power vacuum that lead to the current sectarian gagglefuck. We need to take Germany right after WW2 as the model, we can't purge every low level bureaucrat who may have been involved with Gaddafi, because everyone was fucking involved with Gaddafi. It was a totalitarian state. Just because some technocrat was appointed minister for infrastructure by Gaddafi doesn't mean that we have to completely exclude him from the new government! It's a ridiculous, childish idea that would only create more hardship in the long-run.
The Egyptians seem like they re not gonna rest till every official of the old regime has been kicked out, so I hope it will be the same for Libya.
Come on man, this is weak. Pretty silly in fact. One article references some random letter, (I can't even find the article in Liberation) which purportedly shows a secret deal struck between the NTC and France, 2 weeks after the intervention began. The later article confirms that this wasn't the case. Even if the letter is real, why should the new Libyan government honour it? And why should we assume that whoever wrote it is actually in a position to ensure that such a deal is honoured? It's stupid.
So what this is some kind of conspiracy? Us helping the rebels by bending UNSC1973 as much as possible? Whats the point?