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  1. #101
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Casimir Effect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShowMeTheMonkey View Post
    Other people who loved Vietcong! I remember all of it (including the expansion "Fist Alpha"). All the guys make it out in the end.

    However in Fist Alpha (which was a prequel) the guy you're replacing in the first Vietcong is the main character you play as in the expansion pack. Oh, and also the point-man dies in the expansion.

    I never had any trouble at all with the POW mission, what was the problem?
    Fist Alpha is something I want to forget as I remember being so incredibly disappointed in it. Only ever played through once, and I do actually remember the pointman getting killed near the end (I think you and he are manning a machine gun emplacement or something like that). That is the worst expansion to anything I've ever played though. Especially the first level where everything is in super-long grass which is impossible for you to see through but invisible to the enemy.

    The POW mission could sometimes go fine. But so many times I'd be trying over and over again because as soon as I was spotted they would shoot the POW. Every damn time, even if I was off to the side then half would attack me while the other half would shoot and grenade that poor bastard. And he took 1 damn shot to go down. It also never helped that stealth wasn't great in that game, it was pretty shaky. Sometimes it worked exactly as stealth does in the best of games, othertimes it pulls a Crytek on you.

    Did you ever try the sequel? I bought it when I found it for 99p somewhere and the graphics somehow made me feel so nauseous I couldn't go on. I only got as far as the training level too I think, where the embassy (or whatever the awful building was) gets attacked.

  2. #102
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    Flock. The sheep herding game. It is an entirely acceptable, solid, smooth-running sort of a game with some traces of character and not in any way bad. The reason why I like it is that the herding mechanism, which rewards slow, steady movement from your herding UFO, is just perfect for hungover Sundays. Fast, noisy things are bad on these days, as is high level challenge, and this game shines when played at that quiet, steady pace.

    I can only imagine the controls and speed of the UFO would be infuriating with my brain running at normal speeds.

  3. #103
    Network Hub ShowMeTheMonkey's Avatar
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    I remember a game similar to that called Sheep....

    And yes, Fist Alpha was awful.... Never played Vietcong 2! Though I also didn't know that they made Hidden and Dangerous 2.

    WHICH WAS AWESOME AND I WON'T HEAR A BAD WORD SAID ABOUT IT.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by ShowMeTheMonkey View Post

    I never had any trouble at all with the POW mission, what was the problem?
    I kept getting seen. From what I remember you had to get really close to the VC to actually get to the POW, and the stealth system was very harsh. I was young though, so maybe I just sucked.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    Refute my points.
    Baldur's gate combat is not clunky in the least and even gives you a simulated turn based mode. The setting is not bland, "generic" would be a better word - if you're the kind of guy who expects fantasy to be random clutter of crap without any underlying theme or logic to it whatsoever(and judging by your username, you are). Planescape: Torment is not a shit game, period. You probably think so because of your funny ancient RPG = COMBAT mindset, so you're unable to comprehend why, say, in dialogue you sometimes have two identical options except one is labeled "Truth" and the other "Lie".

  6. #106
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    Upon finishing Singularity, I can safely say: every Raven game ever.
    to wound the autumnal city.

  7. #107
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    C'mmon, man, Raven games are absolutely not mediocre. I mean, Gamesradar made Singularity GOTY!

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    But here's where your inexperience shines through. The older turn-based AD&D games are actually simplified if anything. It's just that they offer solid D&D gameplay instead of D&D in an RTS shell. You can't abuse the pathfinding, you can't cast coudkill and then enter a building, you can't enter and exit buildings to waste an enemy mage's spells, you can't kite enemies by abusing the sluggishness of the AI and you don't have to lead targets with spells. Instead you get a solid turn-based experience with additional features such as being able to talk your way out of fights with enemies in unscripted ways.
    You're definitely a member of RPG Codex, aren't you?

    Not everyone has your taste in RPGs, and they're not necessarily incorrect. The real time with pause ability of the Infinity Engine games is, in my opinion, a sensible compromise between player skill led action RPG fights and strict turn based fighting. The occasional turn based fight (for major battles) is an interesting diversion, but multiple ten minute fights of four kobolds vs your party is frankly tedious.

    Your arguments also appear to be addressing exploits within IE games, rather than the engine itself : players don't have to use cloudkill. I don't understand the use of 'unscripted talking your way out of fights' - computer games by definition have to be scripted, unless it's a simple dice roll at any point in the fight.

    Baldur's Gate provided a much needed revival to the RPG genre, with modern production values and an expansive environment. It had plenty of flaws - particularly a lack of interactivity and shitty pathfinding, but was a good game at the time.

    Despite the fact I think BG2 has a very flabby midgame and is basically a kitchen sink RPG, name some more decent RPGs of the same era with the same level of content and varied environments.

    Name another RPG with the writing and character depth of PS:T.

    So far as your criticisms of Ultima VII go, your mistake appears to be that it was ever conceived as a fighting game : it clearly was not. The emphasis was plot, and that it achieves splendidly.

    It's fine if you lean towards the strategic aspect of RPGs. Other people prefer plot, escapism and some require more modern production values.

  9. #109
    Network Hub Spacewalk's Avatar
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    Depending on who you ask, Die By the Sword. I had a ridiculous amount of fun in the arena mode but the quest was horribly frustrating. I don't know how I managed to get through it once and I can't explain what possessed me to do it a second and third times. But hey, you could cut the limbs off of the monsters and then beat them with their own arms which amused me greatly.

    Chasm: The Rift is another one which I enjoyed parts of but isn't impressive on the whole, again because you could remove bits from the monsters but this time you have guns to do it with.

  10. #110
    I can't remember much offhand that I personally consider mediocre yet playable, but I'm going to offer Rise of the Triad.

    Released in 1995 it was in some ways technically inferior to DOOM and undoubtedly didn't sell as well.

    On the other hand, it was a lot more fun to play, had brilliant weapons and fantastic multiplayer play. The flame weapons were especially good.

  11. #111
    Network Hub Spacewalk's Avatar
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    There was no way that ROTT was going to knock Doom off the top of the heap but it was loaded with ridiculous violence and guns so it was still cool. But those maps, I have more fun hitting my head against the wall than trying to get through those damn mazes. Luckily The Extreme expansion mostly fixed any problems I had with the levels and I could get on with enjoying it.

  12. #112
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    Less a mediocre game than a critically flawed masterpiece, but to this day I think of Knights of the Old Republic 2 as the best 3/4ths of an RPG I have ever played. (One day I'll play it through with all the restored content.)

    I found the Neverwinter Nights 2 engine to be a bit clunky, and the original campaign had some serious pacing flaws (and frankly tried to do too much), but damn if I didn't enjoy the hell out of it all the same.

    Beyond Divinity does little of what its predecessor did right, but it had a charm that covered over a multitude of sins.

    Oh, and, while Planescape: Torment is not by any measure a mediocre game, neither is it a flawless gem. The combat is, I think, adequate, but nothing more than that, and the game suffers quite a bit in its third act (The Curst stuff, though I think it all pays off reasonably well).

    Also, and this will probably be the only time I will ever utter these first three words, Wizardry is right about Ultima VII.

  13. #113
    Actually, Beyond Divinity is possibly a good choice I have to admit. The beginning is far too difficult, and the 'optional' dungeon crawling areas are absolutely necessary in order to be of a high enough level to counter enemies. First two times I got slaughtered on the first level. On my third try I got as far as the main keep, and then repeatedly died again. I just wasn't a fan of the grinding.

    Divine Divinity's end game is supposed to be awful, too. I gave up once I'd placed all the items to teleport to the final area - great game up to that point though.

    Curst is a little slow in PS:T, but the undercity is fantastic once reached and offers one of the few opportunities for proper stealth in the game. PS:T may not be perfect when viewed through a fighting viewpoint, but it was always story that drove it.

    Similarly with Ultima VII - it's clearly not aimed at combat - quite a difference after the turn based Ultima I-VI. Otherwise there might be some proper monitoring of stats - instead, the game actively tries to hide stats and weapon quality away from you, not to mention the Firedoom staff friendly fire..

  14. #114
    Activated Node BathroomCitizen's Avatar
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    Heretic 2 was very fun, and that was made by Raven.

    It was a great game.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by syllopsium View Post
    Divine Divinity's end game is supposed to be awful, too. I gave up once I'd placed all the items to teleport to the final area - great game up to that point though.
    Oh yeah, that's right. Divine Divinity's end game is awful. I'd almost forgotten about that. The rest of the game was, as you say, fantastic.

    Curst is a little slow in PS:T, but the undercity is fantastic once reached and offers one of the few opportunities for proper stealth in the game. PS:T may not be perfect when viewed through a fighting viewpoint, but it was always story that drove it.
    I actually found the undercity to be a bit of a slog, but the stuff immediately after (especially after you return to Curst) is one of my favorite bits of the game. But yeah, you're right, the story is very much what drives this game. None of the flaws in pacing or the combat system or engine limitations or whatever are enough to degrade that (at least for me).

    Similarly with Ultima VII - it's clearly not aimed at combat - quite a difference after the turn based Ultima I-VI. Otherwise there might be some proper monitoring of stats - instead, the game actively tries to hide stats and weapon quality away from you, not to mention the Firedoom staff friendly fire..
    I'd actually argue that none of the games (at least from Ultima IV on, I've never played the earliest ones) were really *about* combat, but they sure did have a lot of it, and VII is no exception. Unfortunately (and this is of course nothing but my opinion), I didn't find Ultima VII's combat system to be very good at all. Though, like Torment, the things the game did right transcended the things it did wrong.

  16. #116
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    I don't know if anyone has mentioned it so far, but what about F.E.A.R.? I highlight specifically the first one and its xpacs because while the sequel was definitely shinier in looks, it didn't have the shotgun. So yeah, F.E.A.R. does do things right, sufficiently enough for it to be acceptable, but aside from the brilliant gun-play, it sounds bad, looks bad, has very mundane level design (although to a certain extent, blowing up offices and train stations was fun in a very Matrix-y kind of way) and other than a few exceptions in these cases, it should be bad.

    But the gun-play uplifts it single-handedly from being a passable game to one that's just very fun to play. F.E.A.R. 2 was enjoyable, but it lacked something on the gun-play and wasn't quite as enjoyable.
    Powered by Steam. And biscuits. I'm also a twit and dabble in creative writing.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    Baldur's gate combat is not clunky in the least and even gives you a simulated turn based mode. The setting is not bland, "generic" would be a better word - if you're the kind of guy who expects fantasy to be random clutter of crap without any underlying theme or logic to it whatsoever(and judging by your username, you are). Planescape: Torment is not a shit game, period. You probably think so because of your funny ancient RPG = COMBAT mindset, so you're unable to comprehend why, say, in dialogue you sometimes have two identical options except one is labeled "Truth" and the other "Lie".
    It doesn't give you a turn-based mode. And it is clunky compared to true turn-based D&D games. The Forgotten Realms is a bland "catch all" setting with little consistency. Reading is not part of the gameplay as you aren't interacting with the game. Choosing dialogue options is part of the game, though. Choosing dialogue options cannot offset the terrible combat. However, combined with the reading of well written text, the mediocre game becomes an enjoyable piece of entertainment, hence why I mentioned it in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by syllopsium View Post
    Not everyone has your taste in RPGs, and they're not necessarily incorrect. The real time with pause ability of the Infinity Engine games is, in my opinion, a sensible compromise between player skill led action RPG fights and strict turn based fighting. The occasional turn based fight (for major battles) is an interesting diversion, but multiple ten minute fights of four kobolds vs your party is frankly tedious.
    What sensible compromise? What "skill led action RPG" elements are present in Baldur's Gate's combat system? What does it do well that turn-based D&D games don't do? What does the game gain from being real-time with pause? Why would a turn-based RPG require 10 minute fights against four kobolds? Why can't the game eliminate 10 minute fights against four kobolds entirely from the game if it's just not fun? Why can't auto-resolved combat be implemented? Why are your criticisms of turn-based RPGs invalid?

    Quote Originally Posted by syllopsium View Post
    Your arguments also appear to be addressing exploits within IE games, rather than the engine itself : players don't have to use cloudkill. I don't understand the use of 'unscripted talking your way out of fights' - computer games by definition have to be scripted, unless it's a simple dice roll at any point in the fight.
    When you come across a bunch of hostile hobgoblins in Baldur's Gate, can you reason with them? Can you talk your way out of a fight? No. You can't. You can only do so in encounters that the developer hand placed in the game. The game doesn't let you talk your way out of trivial fights that you don't wish to participate in.

    Quote Originally Posted by syllopsium View Post
    Baldur's Gate provided a much needed revival to the RPG genre, with modern production values and an expansive environment. It had plenty of flaws - particularly a lack of interactivity and shitty pathfinding, but was a good game at the time.
    Much needed revival? Why? The genre was revived before that with Fallout.

    Quote Originally Posted by syllopsium View Post
    Name another RPG with the writing and character depth of PS:T.
    But that's not my criticism of Planescape: Torment. Those are the reasons why I included the game in this very thread. Did you even read my original post?

    Quote Originally Posted by syllopsium View Post
    So far as your criticisms of Ultima VII go, your mistake appears to be that it was ever conceived as a fighting game : it clearly was not. The emphasis was plot, and that it achieves splendidly.
    Emphasises plot. That's my point. That's why I included Ultima VII in this very thread. Again, did you read my first post?

    Quote Originally Posted by syllopsium View Post
    It's fine if you lean towards the strategic aspect of RPGs. Other people prefer plot, escapism and some require more modern production values.
    Not my problem if some people prefer reading text, listening to voice overs, experiencing a story and looking at fancy 3D graphics over actually playing an RPG.

    Quote Originally Posted by bwion View Post
    Though, like Torment, the things the game did right transcended the things it did wrong.
    Which explains why I mentioned those two games plus the Baldur's Gate series in this thread...
    Last edited by Wizardry; 15-08-2011 at 06:43 PM.

  18. #118
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    Did anyone mention the Guild? I love the Guild. I think it went by another name at some point also, Europa something-rather? The art is awkward, the ui is weird, but there is something about the persistent lineage and beating out other dynasties that is just fantastic.

  19. #119
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    I'll agree with the early comments about Bound in Blood. Its basically a CoD4-clone, but instead of having a boring, overused setting (modern warfare, bleh), it has a wonderful western setting. I'll admit, the gameplay itself is quite shallow, but the wonderful environments and situations (some of them cliched, but in a warm, cuddly way) really make the game quite enjoyable.

    I really enjoyed the first few hours I spend with Poker Night at the Inventory. Sure, there were a lot of problems with the actual poker mechanics, but there was something inexplicably charming about sitting down with the game characters and just having a casual game of poker.

  20. #120
    Lesser Hivemind Node Keep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizardry View Post
    Reading is not part of the gameplay as you aren't interacting with the game.
    ...


    :-|.


    spinning-paper.jpg

    ^ Not part of the cinematography.


    (And yup, I did just play the ole 'Citizen Kane' card boom yeah.)

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