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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    Yeah I'm going to have to agree with Unaco here playing that game yourself even if its a very linear game means that you feel that you get to know the characters personally meaning that cut scene about that chaacters death is a lot more effective then it would be if you just watched it on you tube.
    This sounds like a personal failing on your part to me. Did I watch the entire playthrough on youtube? Did I read a 200 post playthrough on a forum. Characters are just as real to me if I did that than if I played the game.

    By your logic a shitty no plot Mario games makes me care more about the character than I do about Kellanved from MBOTF. Sure Kellanved's influence on the world through the other characters' eyes and the explicit scenes involving him plotting are detailed and well thought out. But I didn't make him swing a sword 100000 times by clicking the B button. So I must not care about him.

    You may feel as if you participated in the story by clicking the B button. But unless your actions created a difference in the outcome you didn't participate.

    What extra knowledge do I gain about the characters' lives by playing that I can't get by watching? Does the game beam a plot point into my head that someone watching on youtube can't see? No? You mean there is not significant difference at all?

    Oh brave new world.

  2. #62
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    One is in the context of passive observation. The other is in the context of active agency and participation.
    Unless the outcome can change based on your participation in it I see absolutely no reason why I'd feel any different about it whether or not I played a role in it. The outcome has already been decided no matter what you do - so why does it matter any more whether or not you had a controller in your hand or not when it happened?

    And MoLAoS, calm the hell down. Calling someone a troll because they're using a fallacy is not helpful.
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  3. #63
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    Unless the outcome can change based on your participation in it I see absolutely no reason why I'd feel any different about it whether or not I played a role in it.
    That's where I'm disagreeing though... even though it's linear, even though the outcome is predetermined, active participation can make a difference to how I, at least, experience a story or event. Take the Amnesia example... Watching someone play it is a laugh, but playing it myself is something different. I know it's just a game, that the monsters can't hurt me, that I shouldn't get scared etc., but I do. There's an immersion there from actively participating, from the player character being an extension of me, somewhat... even if the range in which the character can participate is greatly limited.

    Or, the Sif example, from Dark Souls. I had read and heard people saying about the impact the Sif fight had on them, but I didn't really get it... even after watching the cutscene, and knowing the story behind it. But, when it came to my actual playthrough, it meant a whole lot more me. I was doing it... not someone else. And that's something you have no choice in, something entirely linear.

    I'm not saying that's how everyone sees gaming and stories etc. But it's how I and others do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
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  4. #64
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    A page drawn out of a book in isolation loses context. A cutscene taken out of a game loses context.

    Part of a game is playing, take the playing out of a game and you fail to understand it fully. Take the playing around the cutscene away and you have depleted its context even more than a film taken from its fellow scenes.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    A page drawn out of a book in isolation loses context. A cutscene taken out of a game loses context.

    Part of a game is playing, take the playing out of a game and you fail to understand it fully. Take the playing around the cutscene away and you have depleted its context even more than a film taken from its fellow scenes.
    2 things:
    Suppose you watch a continuous play through of a game. Does the emotional impact differ from playing it yourself?
    I can look at a scene out of context and decide that a movie or book sucks. I can then fill in the context and decide that it still sucks. Perhaps it actually sucks more than if I had just had the one scene. Many people have a good heuristic for deciding if something is going to suck for them.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooop View Post
    Unless the outcome can change based on your participation in it I see absolutely no reason why I'd feel any different about it whether or not I played a role in it. The outcome has already been decided no matter what you do - so why does it matter any more whether or not you had a controller in your hand or not when it happened?

    And MoLAoS, calm the hell down. Calling someone a troll because they're using a fallacy is not helpful.
    Was I trying to be helpful? Sorry. I wasn't aware of that. Also, I'm perfectly calm. I can say all those things from a state of calm just fine.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    That's where I'm disagreeing though... even though it's linear, even though the outcome is predetermined, active participation can make a difference to how I, at least, experience a story or event. Take the Amnesia example... Watching someone play it is a laugh, but playing it myself is something different. I know it's just a game, that the monsters can't hurt me, that I shouldn't get scared etc., but I do. There's an immersion there from actively participating, from the player character being an extension of me, somewhat... even if the range in which the character can participate is greatly limited.

    Or, the Sif example, from Dark Souls. I had read and heard people saying about the impact the Sif fight had on them, but I didn't really get it... even after watching the cutscene, and knowing the story behind it. But, when it came to my actual playthrough, it meant a whole lot more me. I was doing it... not someone else. And that's something you have no choice in, something entirely linear.

    I'm not saying that's how everyone sees gaming and stories etc. But it's how I and others do.
    Observe the number of I's in the statement by Shooop. Then realize your post is both pointless and ironic.

    And even if playing it yourself changes the experience, that doesn't prove it made the story more meaningful. And we are talking about the story, not the product as a whole. It was specifically stated in the OP that the PLOT was shit.

    The fallacy is strong in this one.

    No seriously, like a half a dozen fallacies in one post. Given all the straw you are burning, I'm shocked you didn't burn down the RPS servers.

  8. #68
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    Observe the number of I's in the statement by Shooop. Then realize your post is both pointless and ironic.
    Well, in the post I was responding to when you responded to me, originally, there were 3 of them. Look, I've highlighted them for you below...

    A cutscene is a cutscene. An animated movie. I don't see how it's any different at all from a short film. Whether I watch it on your monitor in game, your TV, or YouTube doesn't make any difference in what I "feel" about it at all.
    And, in the one I've just responded to, there were 3 again. Highlighted again...

    Unless the outcome can change based on your participation in it I see absolutely no reason why I'd feel any different about it whether or not I played a role in it.
    What was your point with that exercise? It shows to me that Shoop and myself were disagreeing on how people do absorb and experience story in video games... that some of us don't just view them in isolation. So, yes, the plot could sound shit, when seen out of the context of the game, but it can come across differently through playing the game.

    Care to point out what fallacies and straw men I'm presenting, specifically... rather than just saying "fallacy" "straw burning"? Then we could maybe get somewhere.
    Last edited by Unaco; 23-03-2013 at 08:07 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Nobody's ever lost sleep over being called a cracker.

  9. #69
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    The difference is that although you stated that certain things were how you felt, you then generalized those opinions to come up with conclusions that you didn't limit to yourself.

  10. #70
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    What conclusions did I state? And I haven't generalised my opinion to everyone. I even, specifically, said...

    I'm not saying that's how everyone sees gaming and stories etc. But it's how I and others do.
    And several people have said that they agree with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Nobody's ever lost sleep over being called a cracker.

  11. #71
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus thegooseking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    And several people have said that they agree with that.
    Honestly, the studies I've seen tend to agree with you on this. I'm just trying not to get dragged into this discussion because it's the weekend, and this is too much like my day job.
    "Moronic cynicism is a kind of naïveté. It's naïveté turned inside-out. Naïveté wearing a sneer." -Momus

  12. #72
    Lesser Hivemind Node Wheelz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    Observe the number of I's in the statement by Shooop. Then realize your post is both pointless and ironic.

    And even if playing it yourself changes the experience, that doesn't prove it made the story more meaningful. And we are talking about the story, not the product as a whole. It was specifically stated in the OP that the PLOT was shit.

    The fallacy is strong in this one.

    No seriously, like a half a dozen fallacies in one post. Given all the straw you are burning, I'm shocked you didn't burn down the RPS servers.
    This just In:

    Your experience is not the same as Unaco's. Clearly your experience is the absolute truth. Everyone else is wrong.

  13. #73
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    sucks[...]sucks[...]sucks[...]suck
    You are talking to other people while replying to me. I am not rebuffing anyone else's argument, please don't treat me as if I am.

    And yes, I found (for example) the farcical ending cut scene of System Shock 2 much more emotive after playing the game than I did initially watching it out of context.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelz View Post
    This just In:

    Your experience is not the same as Unaco's. Clearly your experience is the absolute truth. Everyone else is wrong.
    This post makes no sense based on the post of mine that you quoted.

  15. #75
    Network Hub FurryLippedSquid's Avatar
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    Of course you did, you walked a mile or two in that space cadet's shoes before drawing your conclusions.

    The OP is typed by a mad man.

  16. #76
    Lesser Hivemind Node Shooop's Avatar
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    I find there's a big difference in immersion when it comes to a game only when you're actually playing it.

    There's a big difference between controlling your character in Amnesia down those hallways with the lantern and just watching the cutscenes. You're in control so you have more reason to feel like you're involved.

    The only time I feel like I'm more involved in a game's story/cutscenes is when my choices actually determine something. The best example being The Witcher games because the choices I make as a player actually changes things in the movies/cutscenes. I'm actually partially in control of the situation. The outcome in Bioshock Infinite is always the same no matter what you do during the parts you're in control right? Why can't we judge its story as story as long as we're not confusing it with the gameplay?

    And more importantly you bring up context. You do know understanding the context of something and experiencing something yourself are completely different things right? If we have the proper context it's not unreasonable to judge a story whether it be told in a movie, a book, or a game as something we do or don't like.
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  17. #77
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Voon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiddlesticks View Post
    Is the joke here that you're using an image macro which originated on 4chan to make fun of 4chan?
    Regardless of the image macro meme, I can't see why people would want to take /v/ seriously these days.
    Art blog here.

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  18. #78
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    You may feel as if you participated in the story by clicking the B button. But unless your actions created a difference in the outcome you didn't participate.


    Ah but in my mind and many others pressing the B button is not pressing the B button its making the character do what we want meaning that we are somehow that character meaning that Yes pressing the B button is creating a difference in the outcome...in your head.

  19. #79
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    QTE and linear gameplay does not make me feel more the character than watching. With the exception of HL... :P
    But that's because in HL the character does not act like an idiot, they just act to survive. Crysis 2 felt empty, even with more interaction than HL had. However it had less engaging atmosphere.

  20. #80
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus thegooseking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    [/COLOR]

    Ah but in my mind and many others pressing the B button is not pressing the B button its making the character do what we want meaning that we are somehow that character meaning that Yes pressing the B button is creating a difference in the outcome...in your head.
    A crude way of describing it, but essentially yes. Affecting the outcome is agency, which is part of, but not the totality of interactivity. Suggesting that agency is the only difference between a participatory experience and a spectatorial experience is reductive, and something that appears to be contradicted by the data.

    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    QTE and linear gameplay does not make me feel more the character than watching.
    I wonder how you know that. You can't compare the two side by side (e.g. watching it on youtube and playing it), because you would have to do one first, and then the other, and in the second case your memory of the first case would alter your experience of it.
    Last edited by thegooseking; 24-03-2013 at 09:16 AM.
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