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  1. #1
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    That Finnish eSports Thing

    http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014...s/#more-217483

    This is the "official" thread for commenting on the article. It goes without saying that it will be under moderator scrutiny.

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  2. #2
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    The final situation (open competition and women's competition) is a fairly sensible approach. The same policy is used in chess. Whether this is actually a good idea for women's representation in the long term is open to question, but it's not obviously stupid.

    En passant, there is always vague talk in the chess world of getting Olympic recognition. It is an open question whether such an occasion would require separate men's and women's events. I'd expect that an Open section and a Women's section wouldn't be acceptable to the Olympics. It may be acceptable to just have a single event that anyone can enter, as in equestrianism, but that wouldn't help female participation in chess very much (there are plenty of top-level female equestrians so it isn't a big deal in that sport). I can imagine a similar situation with eSports if they ever wanted to be in the Olympic games.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  3. #3
    Network Hub Skyturnedred's Avatar
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    TotalBiscuit said it well: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/ne7aum

  4. #4
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jockie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyturnedred View Post
    TotalBiscuit said it well: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/ne7aum
    Sounds like he's writing in response to the rabid 'WHAT ABOUT THE MEN THO!' crowd who take any recognition of the existence of minorities or genders other than their own as a declaration of all out war on white, straight men. Love those guys.

    Honestly the outcome here is as good as can be expected, eSports is a pretty terrible place for anyone who isn't a teenage boy (or y'know a man in his twenties who desperately wishes he were still a teenage boy).
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyturnedred View Post
    TotalBiscuit said it well: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/ne7aum
    No he didn't.

    Also, from that article:

    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    The final situation (open competition and women's competition) is a fairly sensible approach. The same policy is used in chess.
    But that reversal only came after IeSF posted some odd defenses for its original gender-split initiative. In two separate Facebook posts, the company mentioned "international sports regulations" that divided competitions into male and female divisions, particularly chess—even though the World Chess Championships famously include women in the main competition.
    It was dumb, end of story. To paraphrase Yahtzee; not malicious, just stupid.
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  6. #6
    Well, just my 2 cents, imo if there isn't a sporting competition where the physical build is a big difference then it should be available for all be they male or female. Including chess. I don't really understand why anyone wouldn't want to do that.

  7. #7
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    Womens and men can share esports. I don't think segregation is needed in esports. It seems in some physical sports is necessary, since the body differences men/women make it hard for women to be the best of the world, ...necessary as in ... without that protection, womens would only very rarely show at the top, so there will be less incentive for womens to participate. Or thats the logic behind it.

    But thats my opinion, and I could see how if womens are not very well represented, a womens bracket would help. But this is like different than a "males only" rule.


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    Last edited by Tei; 04-07-2014 at 01:56 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    It was dumb, end of story. To paraphrase Yahtzee; not malicious, just stupid.
    It doesn't really matter whether it's malicious or stupid as long as it's fixed? It's not like someone can point that out and it suddenly changes everything.

    I think the optimal solution for the problem was found, it was found swiftly, it was enacted, there was a minimum of handwringing, and everyone can walk away happy except for the morons who think that men's position is exactly as precarious as women's when it comes to esports, and thus should be treated identically.

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    On a slight tangent... why are there still separate events for men and women in events that have weight classes such as boxing? And wouldn't that be a sensible approach for a lot of other sports? Imagine if there was a basketball event for people who are under 6 foot.

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    Lesser Hivemind Node Harlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riadsala View Post
    On a slight tangent... why are there still separate events for men and women in events that have weight classes such as boxing?
    Tradition, maybe? Social inertia? Some statistical biomechanical trend? A combination of the above?

    ... dunno, really.

  11. #11
    Because guys usually have bigger muscles and frames? Even with a lower weight? Because males have less bodyfat percentage than women even in the same weight classes, so more muscle weight?
    Makes sense if you know a thing or two about the differences between the male and female body.

  12. #12
    Lesser Hivemind Node Harlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harlander View Post
    Some statistical biomechanical trend?
    Quote Originally Posted by UnderwaterCacty View Post
    Because guys usually have bigger muscles and frames? Even with a lower weight?
    See? I guessed it.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnderwaterCacty View Post
    Makes sense if you know a thing or two about the differences between the male and female body.
    it makes sense even if you don't know a thing or two.

    But, I'd hazard a guess that the difference between sexes, of the same weight, is less than the difference between members of the same sex at different weights.

    Knowing next to nothing about basketball, I'd still put my money on a team of women over 6ft2 beating a team of men under 5ft6.

    Being left-handed can be a natural advantage in many sports. Is it fair that us lefties get to compete with everybody else? [I guess it makes up to a lifetime of using crap tin-openers, etc]
    Obviously, this all gets silly quite quickly. I'm just pondering what a fair and equal playing field is in sports.

  14. #14
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    I agree with what appears to be the general opinion here: they screwed up, admitted it and came to a reasonable position. Excellent.

    I also want to add that, despite their original screw-up, I respect them for coming out and saying "Yeah, we screwed-up". I don't know why they came up with the original plan (I've read what they said, but it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me), but at least they didn't do a Ubisoft and continually deny that it was a problem, coming up with a whole bunch of contradictory reasons why it was the right thing to do. They stated their original reasoning, then changed their policy when they realised their original reasoning was flawed. Well done them.

    (I guess the real test is whether they've actually learned from this, and won't make similarly dumb decisions in the future.)

  15. #15
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riadsala View Post
    I'm just pondering what a fair and equal playing field is in sports.
    Clones that are equal in every way, or something like that. Nothing interesting.


    As for the original article - well, I just can't take anything eSports seriously. It should have been open from the start to either gender, this isn't a question of physical ability. Gender categories in physical sports like weightlifting make sense because there are average physical differences between males and females. But in e-Sports? Heh, eSports. Friggin' eSports.

    It's ridiculous. That said, I don't think they were being malicious in their initial decision. Silly? Yes. Malicious? No. Glad to see that Nathan's article took a more neutral tone too as opposed to an inquisition to burn the heretic - nod of approval here.

    Christ, eSports. This is why I don't take gaming seriously.
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  16. #16
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    oh, on the fact that there were originally going to be smaller number of female events... this actually makes a lot of sense. If as assume (i) the player base for female esports is a lot smaller than the male player base, and that (ii) we want to have competitive events, then reducing the number of female events avoids splitting up an already (comparatively) small player base, and you end up with a fewer number of events with a larger number of people competing in each one. Which is surely better than a larger number of events in which there are only a handful of people competing?

    Of course, this says nothing about the wider issues. But that part of the original decision makes a lot of sense.

  17. #17
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    Hmm I would of said they were being stupid with their initial decision but because of their stupid excuse I would say they were being malicious or at least being really really stupidly ignorant which in most circles is the same thing in my book.

    Yes They changed and it is good that they changed I wouldn't give them a free lollipop though for doing it because yeah those excuses made them get a bit of a black mark in my books.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by riadsala View Post
    oh, on the fact that there were originally going to be smaller number of female events... this actually makes a lot of sense. If as assume (i) the player base for female esports is a lot smaller than the male player base, and that (ii) we want to have competitive events, then reducing the number of female events avoids splitting up an already (comparatively) small player base, and you end up with a fewer number of events with a larger number of people competing in each one. Which is surely better than a larger number of events in which there are only a handful of people competing?

    Of course, this says nothing about the wider issues. But that part of the original decision makes a lot of sense.
    It doesn't really make any sense. If I want to play hearthstone, and someone says 'oh, but you can play starcraft' then that's not helpful? I'd just not play. That doesn't encourage the community to grow or make a more welcoming environment whatsoever. All it does is say 'these games aren't for women'

  19. #19
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    It doesn't necessarily say that. The game choices appear arbitrary, but perhaps they not. Or perhaps they're shuffled, and any given year certain games appear on the list (except those with established scenes for the specific entry requirements where enough participants are guaranteed by sponsorship contracts?). I'm mostly trying to rationalise why Tekken Tag 2 was on the list here though, tbh.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    It doesn't really make any sense. If I want to play hearthstone, and someone says 'oh, but you can play starcraft' then that's not helpful? I'd just not play. That doesn't encourage the community to grow or make a more welcoming environment whatsoever. All it does is say 'these games aren't for women'
    Well, it depends on what you think it most likely to help the community grow, and the organisation's priorities are. I was careful to list the assumptions I was basing the logic on.

    If you swap (ii) above for (iib) we want to prioritize choice as we believe that will lead to wider participation, then sure. I agree 100% with you. But it will be at the cost of (at least in the short term) ending up with a wider selection of competitions, but at a lower standard. Whether that will attract more players, compared to a smaller number of more competitive, show case events, is unclear. It probably varies from person to person.

    And, at the risk of repeating myself, I did say "Of course, this says nothing about the wider issues" in my original post. I was being careful to only talk about the logic behind having a smaller number of events if there is only a small number of potential competitors.

    Finally, personally, I really don't buy the "All it does is say 'these games aren't for women' " statement. But this is purely based on my interest in eSports, which is near zero. I don't base my decisions on how to enjoy my free time on what people play competitively. And I don't go complaining that Crusader Kings 2 isn't being offered as an eSport! Of course, I could be in a minority, and perhaps eSports is a much bigger thing than I imagine. I have little idea of how it all works anyway. And I'm accept that you may feel differently about it all.

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