Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 67

Thread: Magic in games

  1. #41
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    2,154
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    "who have a fetish for being abused by people like me."
    That's more like it!

  2. #42

  3. #43
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jnx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    1,155
    Quote Originally Posted by DevinSmoth View Post
    I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Magicka yet...
    I'm surprised you didn't read the original post :D

    But the news on the RPS frontpage are interesting btw.
    Twitter! Occasional impressions on random sim games.

  4. #44
    Lesser Hivemind Node DevinSmoth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Ohio, US
    Posts
    521
    Why are you surprised that I didn't read the original post?

    Hmm... I did read it, actually... but that was several hours ago, and I'd forgotten that it mentioned Magicka, apparently. I'm a busy person, I swear...

  5. #45
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bhazor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    734
    Honestly the only magic systems I've liked is the early D&D system. Picking spells to memorise was often agonising, looking at your upcoming quest and trying to second guess what the designer/DM had planned, "Do I take an extra healing spell? No! I'll take a holy might spell. Wait. What if there's a vampire in the crypt? Didn't someone mention a vampire? Oh... fuck...I don't know". I also liked in combat how every spell took a long time to cast and you had to make sure you could keep them safe while they were casting. The fact the magic was really powerful with fireballs that could wipe out whole parties it really felt like wielding a huge unwieldy force of destruction.

    In contrast Dragon Age is just hammering arcane bolt whenever it's 5 second cool down ends.

    I don't really mind the loss of pre-selecting spells and can see why some see it as busy work (as happened with the potions in Witcher 2, which again I liked). To me the problem is removing the limitations and tying magic to an abstract source of "mana". To me it feels just like a gun with a magazine of ammo. It also means spells have become weaker as you now cast them for more quickly and often. So in the end there is no real sense of power or planning its just another bar to keep topped up with a mana magazine. What I'd like is a system where every spell had a unique cost. You'd have common spells (levels 1+2) which might cost a few gold to cast, more powerful spells (levels 3-5) that would require some reagents to cast and the spells of desperation (levels 6+) which would have crippling costs like permanently lowering the casters stats but these spells would be incredibly powerful.

    Really magic should be OP but with some kind of cost. Perhaps casting spells could slowly build up a corruption level that makes future enemies tougher or causes your casters to lose their mind.
    Last edited by Bhazor; 25-03-2013 at 08:24 PM.
    “People will kill you over time, and how they’ll kill you is with tiny, harmless phrases, like “be realistic”
    Dylan Moran

  6. #46
    Lesser Hivemind Node
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    844
    ^Ok, I think I'm gonna mess a little with your description of magic in RPG Maker or something.

  7. #47
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jnx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    1,155
    I really loved how you could take lessons from Ignius in Planescape: Torment. You know, his spells were more powerful but there was always the pain in the form of permanently lost health. I remember sweating with those decisions. I wanted to learn more BUT THE PAIN.
    Twitter! Occasional impressions on random sim games.

  8. #48
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bhazor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    734
    @ jnx

    Never knew that. Really need to do a replay of Planescape as a villain.
    “People will kill you over time, and how they’ll kill you is with tiny, harmless phrases, like “be realistic”
    Dylan Moran

  9. #49
    Lesser Hivemind Node TillEulenspiegel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    978
    Quote Originally Posted by Bhazor View Post
    Really magic should be OP but with some kind of cost. Perhaps casting spells could slowly build up a corruption level that makes future enemies tougher or causes your casters to lose their mind.
    WFRP has chaos manifestation tables, where the more powerful spell you cast, the likelier it is that something will go terribly, terribly wrong. I believe there was a cumulative effect too.

    Lankhmar for AD&D2 had a system where for each time a black wizard leveled up, there was a chance of gaining some kind of disfigurement.

    Just a couple neat ideas from old P&P games, off the top of my head.

  10. #50
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,009
    Also worth mentioning Wild Mages in Baldur's Gate 2 (with the Throne of Baal expansion only? I forget). They have a chance to cause a surge whenever they cast which can do all manner of things. There was even a low level spell allowing you to deliberately trigger a surge allowing the user a small chance to get a higher level spell out of it.

  11. #51
    Activated Node TheIronSky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    The Internet
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by TillEulenspiegel View Post
    WFRP has chaos manifestation tables, where the more powerful spell you cast, the likelier it is that something will go terribly, terribly wrong. I believe there was a cumulative effect too.

    Lankhmar for AD&D2 had a system where for each time a black wizard leveled up, there was a chance of gaining some kind of disfigurement.

    Just a couple neat ideas from old P&P games, off the top of my head.
    That sounds a lot better than having the player simply 'lose their mind.' A part of me feels like forcing the player into compulsive actions with an increase in their magic usage (obviously using some algorithm when you cast the spell using a very slight but ever increasing level of entropy) could eventually lead to removing player agency, which should be considered a cardinal sin in games. It's really quite difficult to simulate insanity. I thought it was done rather well in Amnesia, but that wasn't magic centered.

    Perhaps magic casting should be treated like the conjuration of different energies from alternate universes, and with each increasing level the percent entropy of conjurations would also increase? Much like that Mechanomancer 'Chaos' tree in Borderlands 2.

  12. #52
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    1,492
    One of the old SNES RPGs has players cast magic with HP. It's an interesting mechanic, but I didn't get far in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by arathain View Post
    Also worth mentioning Wild Mages in Baldur's Gate 2 (with the Throne of Baal expansion only? I forget). They have a chance to cause a surge whenever they cast which can do all manner of things. There was even a low level spell allowing you to deliberately trigger a surge allowing the user a small chance to get a higher level spell out of it.
    Wild Mages were pretty damn ridiculous at epic levels, especially if you used the dweomer to cast a bunch of contingencies. That would just break the game.
    Last edited by Internet; 25-03-2013 at 08:06 PM.

  13. #53
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    975
    I was obsessed with Academagia for a while. I posted some ridiculous min-maxing strategies in the spoiler room on the forum.

    One thing I don't like is that the items system is totally garbage and useless, and the game is based on magical schools, rather than individual spells. And the optimal play is totally unbalanced, 90% of game content is horribly inefficient.

    I was also obsessed with KoDP and I love it so much. The events are cool, the magic is sensical, and the city management and diplomacy is nice.

    I always wished some of the stuff in these games would move out of text cyoa and move into other genres.

    Back when I was designing a theoretical MMO I had several threads about how magic in games is so ruined. Its too common, obviously. There is no real cost either. As someone said the issue is the way magic is limited in stories is not effective in games, ESPECIALLY the modern generation of WoW and MOBA players. They already ruined questing. Quests are now just chores as we elitists like to say. Even aside from being told exactly where to go.

    The goal of modern games is get in, get a fun blast for no effort, get out. Its exactly the opposite of how magic works in fiction.

    Fictional magic is also totally worthless in synchronous multiplayer, which the majority of big budget games are. Magic is all about saving up power to release at once. "Balance" is all about nothing being better than anything else, having quick short battles with no time to save up, and having a very specific and low DPS cap per unit.

    Magic is thusly terribly suited to a game where every individual is a single unit, but could be better suited to strategy games where you control hundreds of guys.

    I did come up with a method for putting magic in MMOs. But it definitely resulted in a game where some players eventually became much more powerful. There is a balance where you can't solo very much, which of course ruins the game for 90% of people, where even if you were a godly mage you would eventually fall becuase you didn't have a support network of at least crafters and economy players, although you don't necessarily need warriors. And while direct magic becomes rare and powerful, weapon enchanting and even low level magic is still pretty common.

    The main way to utilize traditional fantasy magic is to accept that your game will never sell a million copies no matter how amazing it is.

  14. #54
    Moderator Anthile's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    People's Republic of Germany
    Posts
    2,296
    Quote Originally Posted by Internet View Post
    One of the old SNES RPGs has players cast magic with HP. It's an interesting mechanic, but I didn't get far in the game.
    Apropos, the mostly forgotten and only fan-translated Square RPG Treasure of the Rudra for the SNES had a very unique magic system as well, which was probably the main reason it never left Japan. I'm simply going to quote wikipedia here:
    The game's most innovative feature is its magic system. Whereas most console RPGs give the player access to a limited number of precreated spells, Rudra no Hihō allows the player nearly total creative freedom. The player can enter various "words of power" (called kotodama (言霊,ことだま) in the original) into their grimoire. Every one will have some effect, although most are not useful. There is an underlying framework to the system, however, which is based on the gameworld's elements.[2]

    A complete mantra generally consists of a prefix, elemental core, and suffix, although the core alone is enough to produce an effect. There are eight elements (plus healing), and of these, six are arranged in mutually antagonistic pairings: fire vs. water, wind vs. electricity, and light vs dark. The remaining two offensive elements, earth and void, have no strengths or weaknesses. Since spells are formed from letters, there are specific patterns corresponding to each element. Certain spells that use the root word tou for example, will produce lightning-based attacks, while those containing aqu will create water-based effects.

    Additionally, there are prefixes and suffixes that can be added onto the base elements to change their attributes. Most of these influence the base power and cost to use the spell, but others add abnormal status effects (for example, poisoning the target) or change the mantra's range so that it only targets a single enemy instead of multiple ones or vice versa. Prefixes and suffixes with similar effects can be used in tandem to produce amplified effects.

    Other mantras consist of unique words, many of them in English, that create certain effects and skip the naming system entirely. Many of these strange words are learned from in-game characters or by reading books. For example, geo is an earth-related mantra, and kingcoast is a water spell. Adding prefixes or suffixes to these usually makes something completely different (and often useless).[6] This use of spelled-out mantras allows the player to learn magic from even their enemies. When an enemy uses magic, the player has but to write down the spells used and then to enter them into his or her own grimoire after the battle in order to have access to them. Some of these enemy spells are extremely powerful, although many are not as cost-efficient as the basic spells described above. Some are more space-efficient versions of regular spells.
    The fan-translation used the regular western alphabet and it seemed a bit random at times. You could enter any word you wanted and it would result in a spell.
    It's a very neat game if probably a bit too formulaic and easy.
    to wound the autumnal city.

  15. #55
    Network Hub
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    382
    The Void has an interesting mechanic that has the player extracting color from the environment to fuel the character's abilities. The developers intended to implement a balancing system where the comparative usage of colors changes how NPCs and the game world behave (for example, heavy usage of emerald makes your defences stronger but reduces the effectiveness of your other skills); however, due to time/money constraints, it was not finished.

  16. #56
    Lesser Hivemind Node
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    845
    Quote Originally Posted by jnx View Post
    Nope, something with more niche appeal. Tried searching but didn't find. Btw how much one might want to pay for those DS games? Amazon UK sells Knights in the Nightmare for almost 50e and The World Ends With You with a more reasonable 15e. The cost of new DS games is probably the reason why my DS just collects dust from one year to another.
    Unfortunately Knights is difficult to find cheap. Not only because its becoming increasingly rare but because its from Sting Entertainment. Sting specialise in hardcore strategy rpgs and for obvious reasons have a limited audience although Atlus are dedicated in releasing their best games.

    Try www.videogameplus.ca and see if its any cheaper for you.

    Alternatively, you can emulate it. The increased accuracy and speed of the mouse doesn't make the game any easier. The strategic aspect remains strong.

  17. #57
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,009
    Conquest of Elysium 3, a turn based fantasty strategy game, had a mechanic for Necromancers, by which each cast of Rasie Dead, a staple of the class, made you a bit more insane. Insanity would be shown as a percentage, which was the chance to miss any given turn. You needed the troops, but you had to think carefully each time you used it. It was best to fob the job off on an apprentice, and leave him to guard the citadel when he started to dribble and smell, but you could also enact a ritual to become a vampire (feeding off settlements lowers insanity) or a lich (a longer term goal that would leave you immune to insanity altogether).

    Incidentally, I do recommend The World Ends With You very highly indeed. It's not your typical JRPG.

  18. #58
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bhazor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    734
    Speaking of 4X games I did like the approach to magic in Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic. Picking which magical allignment you want and more importantly magic is a massive event, they often take several turns to cast and can do things like level mountains, summon an army or transform a forest into cursed land. Again would have liked it to come with a price beyond casting time but at least it feels suitably powerful.
    “People will kill you over time, and how they’ll kill you is with tiny, harmless phrases, like “be realistic”
    Dylan Moran

  19. #59
    Activated Node
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Pennsylvania, US
    Posts
    82
    Not sure if this counts, but for what it's worth there are some excellent mods out there that improve Skyrim's magic gameplay (adding spells, features, etc.)

  20. #60
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    NY f'n C
    Posts
    9,917
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrophy View Post
    Not sure if this counts, but for what it's worth there are some excellent mods out there that improve Skyrim's magic gameplay (adding spells, features, etc.)
    But they don't allow you to alter reality
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
    Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
    Attorney at Lawl
    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •