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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnS View Post
    Don't you dare equivalise feminists with MRA's, or even stupid feminists with stupid MRA's. There's a world of difference between the legitimacy of their causes, and two hundred worlds when the context is gaming.
    I'm very prepared to accept this statement. I even think it's true. But it would be so much better when you bother to offer either argumentation or evidence in support of your point, instead of daring people to disagree. Is it really that difficult of a concept?

  2. #202
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsch View Post
    Actually, thanks to the screeching mob of people who only have eyes for one side of the issue and dismiss any thought that might be slightly different ...
    "We think women should be treated fairly and there should be equality" - One side of the argument, the one being put forward by RPS, myself and feminists in general.

    So what would the -other- side of the argument consist of then?
    My actions are in no way born out of some sort of Darwinist offensive
    I just get a bit fidgety times

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsch View Post
    Actually, thanks to the screeching mob of people who only have eyes for one side of the issue and dismiss any thought that might be slightly different ...
    Look at the comments under any post about some sexist, misogynistic shit a woman's had to put up with. It'll be teeming with MRAs calling her out as a liar, an attention-seeker, a slut, a cunt, anything you care to name. Anything that even suggests a woman has got the shitty end of the stick in a given situation is like a clarion call for the skidmarks of humanity to haul themselves out of their He-Man Woman Haters' Club forums and endlessly recylcing their conspiracy theories about how men are the REAL oppressed people in today's society and besides what's the world coming to these days when you can't even compliment a woman on her tits without her getting all offended and shit.

    They threw the first stone. They keep on throwing stones, first and fast. So is it any wonder more and more people are saying ENOUGH and throwing stones back?

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsch View Post
    I'm very prepared to accept this statement. I even think it's true. But it would be so much better when you bother to offer either argumentation or evidence in support of your point, instead of daring people to disagree. Is it really that difficult of a concept?
    To be clear here, I'm not trying to debate anything - I'm pointing out how idiotic Sketch's statement is. You could claim that I'm proving your point about the debating climate here, but if "MRA's and feminists are kinda the same" is being considered a legitimate position in this debate, then I'm glad that comments are turned off.

  5. #205
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    Please inform me how that is in any way what I said.
    steam: sketch

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    "We think women should be treated fairly and there should be equality" - One side of the argument, the one being put forward by RPS, myself and feminists in general.

    So what would the -other- side of the argument consist of then?
    That is a simplification of the debate. Your side of the argument is not simply "We think women should be treated fairly and there should be equality", it involves a whole lot more assumptions about actual conditions and what should be done about it. Do you agree with that, at least?

    Painting the 'other side of the argument' as raving lunatics--even assuming there is only one other side of the argument--is counterproductive to debate and either disingenuous or naive.

  7. #207
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsch View Post
    That is a simplification of the debate. Your side of the argument is not simply "We think women should be treated fairly and there should be equality", it involves a whole lot more assumptions about actual conditions and what should be done about it. Do you agree with that, at least?

    Painting the 'other side of the argument' as raving lunatics--even assuming there is only one other side of the argument--is counterproductive to debate and either disingenuous or naive.
    You keep talking about sides but you didn't answer the question. What's your side? Why what are you arguing for?

  8. #208
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsch View Post
    That is a simplification of the debate.
    No, it is the point. This is why it's not a debate. Do you understand this?
    My actions are in no way born out of some sort of Darwinist offensive
    I just get a bit fidgety times

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketch View Post
    Please inform me how that is in any way what I said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sketch View Post
    There's stupid feminists and there's stupid MRA's. There are probably some good ones of both groups,...
    I'd say this whole part is what gives me that impression ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sketch View Post
    ... and this whole generalisation of groups is the problem.
    ... and here you're trying to cover your bases/invalidate your previous part of the post/confuse your audience. I'd love it if you could clarify what you actually meant!

  10. #210
    Obscure Node deadlyhabit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I've sent a tweet to the guy at Gamasutra to see if he can clarify the survey.
    You can actually get the whole thing in the issue http://gdmag.com/issue/2013/April for $3.95 .
    He's also clarified it a bit in the comments of that article and the other one on the subject
    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/1...ary_Survey.php

    Personally I love the conversations on Gamasutra vs here and other gaming sites because it's usually people actually in the industry commenting and answering.

    Just for personal reference is MRA Men's Rights Activists? Half the problem with these debates (if you want to call them that) is these uncommon acronyms getting tossed around for people who don't follow 24/7.
    Hell CIS was another one I had to look up when trying to read some articles.
    I'm all for feminism, hell I'm fortunate enough to live within a drive of Susan B Anthony's house, it's just some of this new wave of feminism and the inner conflicts between pro and anti sex etc is often at times militant and hard to not be on the defensive when it comes to some aspects.
    Last edited by deadlyhabit; 06-04-2013 at 11:39 PM.

  11. #211
    Activated Node TaroYamada's Avatar
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    MRAs have a lot of valid complaints in my view, I'd consider their movement just as valid as that of the feminists. Though there's a lot of hate towards males/females from extreme fringes on both sides. Personally I'm an egalitarian, that's the side I'm on. Feminism/MRA aren't about equality because they immediately engender the discussion and frame it around a gender.

    Egalitarianism is the true equality movement.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tikey View Post
    You keep talking about sides but you didn't answer the question. What's your side? Why what are you arguing for?
    I did not talk about sides. The person I was talking to was talking about sides. My position is that overblown rhetoric is damaging to the process of finding out what exactly is happening, why it's happening, and what to do about it, and so it is ultimately damaging the people you are trying to help.

    Basically, if you're talking about taking sides, about 'us' vs. 'them', you've already defeated yourself. Equality is not about winning; it's about making sure no one loses.

    And saying that 'there is no debate' is simply not conducive to resolving any disagreements. And clearly, even if you don't think there's a debate, there are disagreements.

  13. #213
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnS View Post
    I'd say this whole part is what gives me that impression ...



    ... and here you're trying to cover your bases/invalidate your previous part of the post/confuse your audience. I'd love it if you could clarify what you actually meant!

    No my point isn't that the MRAs and Feminists are the same, but that to just say Feminists are always good isn't the way to go about it, and that in both groups that are people who will be a detriment to whatever their cause because of their views or methods. Some people who would claim to be in the groups and demand equality actually aren't doing that and really they are making it worse for everyone. If you get the impression that I'm calling all feminists bad that is not my intention.

    If someone who falls into the feminist or MRA camp is genuinely fighting for fairness and equality then good, but to blanket one or the other as bad without recognising there are people in the wrong on both sides is not right.
    steam: sketch

  14. #214
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    No, it is the point. This is why it's not a debate. Do you understand this?
    The debate is in how to achieve said equality and as to what sacrifices people are willing to make to achieve it.

    Personally, I don't really care, I've got too many actual problems to spend time worrying about saving women.
    Last edited by Hypernetic; 06-04-2013 at 11:42 PM.

  15. #215
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    I don't understand the viewpoint that over-sexualized females in games is "misogyny". I think there is plenty of room for debate there, for one.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    No, it is the point. This is why it's not a debate. Do you understand this?
    Oh look, RobF yet again stating 'absolutes' and refusing to actually engage other posters.
    How many times is that now?

    Oh right, all I need to do is check your post count since you do this in every fricken thread :rolleyes:

  17. #217
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeFrank View Post
    I don't understand the viewpoint that over-sexualized females in games is "misogyny". I think there is plenty of room for debate there, for one.
    Don't bother. They will either tell you "we aren't trying to take the things you like away" or call you some form of troll/pig/etc.

    MUH WOMNYZ!

  18. #218
    Obscure Node deadlyhabit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeFrank View Post
    I don't understand the viewpoint that over-sexualized females in games is "misogyny". I think there is plenty of room for debate there, for one.
    There's actually a divide within feminism about the issue of female sexuality.
    Often when it comes to games I think it comes down to it usually being a lowest common denominator type of design when it comes to characters using classic tropes or shallow plots/characters.
    It's often like a hollywood blockbuster action movie, little substance, stereotypical characters and plot with lots of flash, and often it works, like those movie to sell a ton.

  19. #219
    Activated Node TaroYamada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeFrank View Post
    I don't understand the viewpoint that over-sexualized females in games is "misogyny". I think there is plenty of room for debate there, for one.
    It's not sexist if you don't think it is and don't let anyone else tell you otherwise. Sexism is largely a subjective topic which is why when we have people treat their view of sexism as a moral truth discourse falls apart (it almost always does on this topic). This "sexy is harmful" talk harks back to the end of the second wave feminist movement, when the feminist sex wars broke out over pornography; some feminists were fine with pornography, others felt it was harmful to women.

    We know it's rather unlikely that pornography is harmful
    , as such it's quite likely the same holds true for 'sexy' game characters.
    Last edited by TaroYamada; 06-04-2013 at 11:50 PM.

  20. #220
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Pornography is not used to sell a product. Pornography is the product.

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