Page 13 of 23 FirstFirst ... 31112131415 ... LastLast
Results 241 to 260 of 443
  1. #241
    Obscure Node deadlyhabit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Murrica
    Posts
    24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Well my spider sense is tingling that perhaps the 'working mom' factor wasn't taken into account, which given the paucity of the survey size does kind of bring into question the original discrimination assumption. It would be good to have some official word on the subject though.
    Well the gaming industry doesn't exactly have the best track record with any sex. If he doesn't reply to you in a couple days let me know on twitter @deadlyhabit and I'll see what I can do to illicit a response even if I have to use friends of friends and call in some favors.

  2. #242
    Network Hub
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    205
    An example of thoughtful critique from the reddit thread, for reference:

    http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/commen...ing_up/c99oooq

    This bugs me. I agree with everything this article says, I'm just as angry at the game industry as the author of this article is. But still, that second quote bugs the crap out of me. He talks about fostering discussion, but then claims that every dissenting perspective is 'an attempt to silence discussion.' We've talked about how great it is that we're seriously discussing this issue, but then gotten angry when people who don't already agree with us join the discussion.It's this bizarre them vs us mentality. Character designers who enjoy oversexualization, assholes perpetuating stereotypes, and employers who hold women to higher standards aren't just people who we need to convince to change their ways, they're the enemy. They're people who are wrong and we need to do something about them, rather than their opinions, outlooks or actions. This argument isn't "we try to convince/educate the industry," it's "we're fighting the industry." It's not "Women try to get rid of damaging tropes in the media" It's "Tropes vs Women"- though more often framed as "Writers vs Women"
    Besides that, this article falls for the usual problem that a lot of recent discussions on this subject have- it doesn't add anything. It reminds us that sexism exists, throws a few insults at the perceived perpetrators, and then just sorta... rants. There's no attempt to win over the hostile audience it acknowledges exists, in fact it just sorta yells at that audience. Were it not for that pastebin deflection, I would be tempted to call it linkbait, simply because it isn't actually adding anything to the conversation besides a bit more of that nice, alienating outrage.
    It's not persuasive, it's not constructive, and now it's not even linkbait. It's someone being mad on the internet.
    Edit; I acknowledge that the article also calls out this sort of response- according to them claiming that both sides are guilty of hyperbole doesn't add anything. I don't find that claim agreeable, because when we abuse hyperbole and demonize the other side, we alienate the very people we're supposed to be trying to persuade. I invite anyone to please explain to me how asserting that the detractor's opinions don't matter is likely to win them over.

  3. #243
    Activated Node TaroYamada's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    54
    Quote Originally Posted by EstrangedManatee View Post
    Feminism is a true equal rights movement. One of the problems it faces is the media managing to brand it as a not-equal-rights movement. Most people who describe themselves as "humanists" or "egalitarians" are arguing feminist talking points and using different language to avoid being called feminist.

    The reason it's called feminism is because it's focused on womens' issues. Just like there's business lobbyists, consumer advocate lobbyists, there are people who think womens' issues are important and choose to focus on that. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and it doesn't mean it's not an equality movement, and the people involved in it somehow don't care about other problems.


    How else are you supposed to talk about gender equality? How do you talk about racial equality and not talk about it in terms of race? Or any other kind of equality. People frame it in terms of gender because they are discussing the role of gender in society.
    Feminism isn't about equality and cannot be a true equal rights movement because it is gender-centric, it focuses on women's issues primarily within the context of supposed and proven male advantages. You even say so by stating it focuses on women's issues. How can an equality movement be equal and yet focus explicitly on one group's issues within the context of another group's? That's counter intuitive. As for how we can talk about it, I should have been more clear. Ideally a term expressing equality is neutral, if it isn't neutral and it frames the discussion from the outset around the perspective of one group it cannot be equal in my view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Believe me, with my prolix nature, I meet some dumb motherfuckers on the internet, and you, sir, are fast rising on that list.

    Right now I have a tiny angel 'Lano on my right shoulder wanting me to explain why, as you clearly lack the ability to feel empathy, that understanding that things that cater to men but are offensive to women may not also be offensive to the men they cater to. But tiny devil 'Lano is winning out, and most of what he suggests is unprintable.
    So I see you still have nothing to prove me definitively incorrect, due to that reality your reply resorts to personal attacks. This reminds me of Oscar Wilde's quote on morality:

    Morality is simply the attitude we adopt towards people whom we personally dislike.
    Either way I'm not interested in continuing a discussion with you based on the ignorance you've expressed here, does this site have an ignore list?

  4. #244
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
    Posts
    4,322
    Quote Originally Posted by deadlyhabit View Post
    Well the gaming industry doesn't exactly have the best track record with any sex. If he doesn't reply to you in a couple days let me know on twitter @deadlyhabit and I'll see what I can do to illicit a response even if I have to use friends of friends and call in some favors.
    I'll probably buy the mag tomorrow and give it a full perusal to see the detail (paywalls at night are never fun). It's late and I'm kind of worn after all the excitement :)
    Last edited by Kadayi; 07-04-2013 at 12:53 AM.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

    Probable Replicant

    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me

    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    He who controls the Doge controls the universe

  5. #245
    Activated Node
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    35
    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    That rankled me a little too, but I searched for the video and can't find it anywhere, and without having seen it, it's impossible to judge as we have no clue on the context. And even then I don't think I have the energy to explain to an upstanding Christian man why exactly spanking and electrocuting women isn't necessarily oppressing and degrading them.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsfFzKaQveE

    "To up the ante, SinFisted will randomly paddle them on the ass to distract us... I mean, them."

    "By the way, Crissy's pain yelps will be available for download at the end of the show."

    And so on.

  6. #246
    Obscure Node deadlyhabit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Murrica
    Posts
    24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I'll probably buy the mag tomorrow and give it a full perusal to see the detail (paywalls at night are never fun). It's late and I'm kind of worn after all the excitement :)
    Well if you don't already can I recommend adding Gamasutra to your regular gaming news rotation, it's a site that often gets overlooked since it's people in the industry and people hoping to be in it.

  7. #247
    Obscure Node
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by sabrage View Post
    Walker acknowledged that the desire to be validated is a natural one in the article, but the reason he's writing it, in his own words, is outrage.
    Bullshit anyway. He's not a woman, even if there is such discrimination and abuse in the industry -I do think there is, though not nearly as much as John Walker wants us to believe- there's no way he can fathom what feels like.

    As I said, he's full of shit and it's all about him. In fact, he makes it clear himself:

    If you canít see how itís a problem that needs discussing, then you simply donít give a shit. Iím asking people to start giving a shit.
    Reasons why Iím writing this? Because I care about it. Because I am a part of it.
    Iíve both given thought to, and written about, the subject of gaming and women. While my understanding of the subject remains severely limited, Iíve learned a fair amount over the fourteen years Iíve been doing this, and while I feel certain Iíd be very embarrassed by how Iíd have expressed things years back, my position is much the same: I like people, and I like it when people are treated well. I abhor it when people are treated badly. The root of my caring about this subject isnít any more sophisticated than that.
    In having written about the subject of women and games over the years, Iíve received a significant amount of abuse.
    . For those looking for tips for getting to me, thereís your angle. Theyíre insidious little phrases. They rely on a seed of irrelevant truth to permeate the conscious, to give me cause to hesitate before speaking.
    I like getting laid!
    And I like it when people are attracted to me, even those who are not my wife. Because Iím a person. It feels good.
    And I like it when I can help others. I like being someone others can rely on, can trust to stand up for them when it matters, and to be there to support them when they need it. I donít pretend thatís selfless Ė of course I get something out of it too. Itís a part of who I am.
    I want to see positive change. Thatís what causes me to start typing, including this piece.
    They get to me. Theyíre getting to me right now.
    I like it when people like me. I like it when people come up and compliment me. I like the approval of others.
    And I am sorry, because itís not fair. It really damned sucks, and it gets to me, it weighs me down.
    I just have the bare dregs of empathy for human suffering
    Most of the article is about what he wants, what he likes and how he feels. It's barely about women at all. One could change women for muslims and misogyny for islamophobia and the result would've been exactly the same.

    The only way to make a difference, Sarkeesian argued, is to turn around and actively walk against the flow of the travelator. Something which is, it occurs to me, not easy. Not only are you walking against the flow of movement, but youíre also going to bump into everyone heading in the other direction
    The vast majority of our readers are in favour of this coverage
    John Walker @botherer
    "Over 250 emails and probably now thousands of tweeted comments in support of the post. A tiny percentage against.
    Amazing."
    "Oh my goodness, I literally cannot read the tweets and emails as fast as they arrive. And they are 99% amazingly positive."
    If the majority is with you, how the hell are you walking against the flow? Why turn the comments off, which is already wrong and stupid for several other reasons other than this contradiction?


  8. #248
    Obscure Node deadlyhabit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Murrica
    Posts
    24
    Quote Originally Posted by disconnect View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsfFzKaQveE

    "To up the ante, SinFisted will randomly paddle them on the ass to distract us... I mean, them."

    "By the way, Crissy's pain yelps will be available for download at the end of the show."

    And so on.
    Dear lord I dislike most Machinima normally, but that is Spike TV levels of cringe worthy (and like i said lowest common denominator entertainment)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYgxR3Z3raY

  9. #249
    Lesser Hivemind Node Kaira-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Oulu, Finland
    Posts
    965
    Quote Originally Posted by sir fairfax View Post
    If the majority is with you, how the hell are you walking against the flow? Why turn the comments off, which is already wrong and stupid for several other reasons other than this contradiction?
    At what point did RPS readers become majority of gamers and gaming industry people?

  10. #250
    Activated Node TaroYamada's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Eugene, Oregon
    Posts
    54
    Quote Originally Posted by sir fairfax View Post

    If the majority is with you, how the hell are you walking against the flow? Why turn the comments off, which is already wrong and stupid for several other reasons other than this contradiction?
    Also, while it's possibly for other reasons than the recent focus on sexism here at RPS, some users are just leaving. I know some users who switched to PCGamer and since 3 months ago RPS Alexa rank has fallen over 600 places. This community has become rather hostile towards anybody who even slightly disagrees.

  11. #251
    Obscure Node
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaira- View Post
    At what point did RPS readers become majority of gamers and gaming industry people?
    I never said it did. The one thing he did was write a rant about it in his website, which (apparently) is overwhelmingly favorable to his opinion. Hence my question: how is he walking against the flow?

  12. #252
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Terra Australis Incognita
    Posts
    4,396
    My biggest problem with his new article is that he's still attempting to polarise the community into supporting his rhetoric or being labelled as a misogynist. It's entirely possible to fully acknowledge that things need to change while also criticising him quoting incomplete statistics and coming to a conclusion unsupported by data.

    What really grinds my gears is that he links in two separate issues as if to say "Well if you questioned the wage gap article, then clearly you're against this monstrosity from Machinima too because they're both about women!" Degrading women for the purpose of entertainment and a wage gap are two separate issues. Yes, they come under the heading of women in gaming, but to treat them as identical issues is a gross simplification. That video made me sick and it's absolutely abhorrent. An actual wage gap, if demonstrated to exist, is also abhorrent. But there are different attitudes between the two - one is over sexualisation of women and degrading them for entertainment purposes, the other is a strange presumption that women are worth less in the industry and should be paid accordingly.

    John linking the two would be questionable but tolerable, but trying to link the two in order to force you to accept his previous article on wage gap is concerning. John (I know you're going to read this, and possibly tell me to "fuck off") it's entirely possible for me to campaign for better treatment of women in the video game sector while also questioning your previous article's data. I really resent the accusation that because I'm not willing to just blindly accept your previous article that I'm trying to neutralise the debate from it ever taking place. A debate with only one voice isn't a debate, and trying to point at data and screaming that there's a wage gap without proper explanation doesn't actually help identify the issue. Maybe it really is a wage gap based entirely on gender alone, or maybe there's a problem with retention, or maybe women find it doesn't support them enough for example during pregnancy or when family issues arise. Similar problems have popped up in other fields here in Australia leading to lengthy maternity leave (perhaps too much truth be told, small businesses can barely afford it).

    Of course by "attempting to bring balance to the debate" clearly I'm secretly against women in video gaming and am a raging closet misogynist RN out to maintain the patriarchy. Right, John? I mean that's what you said in your article...
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.

  13. #253
    Lesser Hivemind Node Kaira-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Oulu, Finland
    Posts
    965
    Quote Originally Posted by sir fairfax View Post
    I never said it did. The one thing he did was write a rant about it in his website, which (apparently) is overwhelmingly favorable to his opinion. Hence my question: how is he walking against the flow?
    The context wasn't RPS, which ought to be clear if you read the article (which you apparently did).

  14. #254
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    NY f'n C
    Posts
    9,917
    Clearly, with the infusion of new accounts on this thread, that the discussion of the comment-free article has just migrated here.

    Because the forums weren't stupid enough.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
    Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
    Attorney at Lawl
    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  15. #255
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    3,490
    Quote Originally Posted by disconnect View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsfFzKaQveE

    "To up the ante, SinFisted will randomly paddle them on the ass to distract us... I mean, them."

    "By the way, Crissy's pain yelps will be available for download at the end of the show."

    And so on.
    That's weird, the voiceover is the worst thing about it, the girls look like they're having a pretty fun time of it.

  16. #256
    Obscure Node
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    My biggest problem with his new article is that he's still attempting to polarise the community into supporting his rhetoric or being labelled as a misogynist. It's entirely possible to fully acknowledge that things need to change while also criticising him quoting incomplete statistics and coming to a conclusion unsupported by data.

    What really grinds my gears is that he links in two separate issues as if to say "Well if you questioned the wage gap article, then clearly you're against this monstrosity from Machinima too because they're both about women!" Degrading women for the purpose of entertainment and a wage gap are two separate issues. Yes, they come under the heading of women in gaming, but to treat them as identical issues is a gross simplification. That video made me sick and it's absolutely abhorrent. An actual wage gap, if demonstrated to exist, is also abhorrent. But there are different attitudes between the two - one is over sexualisation of women and degrading them for entertainment purposes, the other is a strange presumption that women are worth less in the industry and should be paid accordingly.

    John linking the two would be questionable but tolerable, but trying to link the two in order to force you to accept his previous article on wage gap is concerning. John (I know you're going to read this, and possibly tell me to "fuck off") it's entirely possible for me to campaign for better treatment of women in the video game sector while also questioning your previous article's data. I really resent the accusation that because I'm not willing to just blindly accept your previous article that I'm trying to neutralise the debate from it ever taking place. A debate with only one voice isn't a debate, and trying to point at data and screaming that there's a wage gap without proper explanation doesn't actually help identify the issue. Maybe it really is a wage gap based entirely on gender alone, or maybe there's a problem with retention, or maybe women find it doesn't support them enough for example during pregnancy or when family issues arise. Similar problems have popped up in other fields here in Australia leading to lengthy maternity leave (perhaps too much truth be told, small businesses can barely afford it).

    Of course by "attempting to bring balance to the debate" clearly I'm secretly against women in video gaming and am a raging closet misogynist RN out to maintain the patriarchy. Right, John? I mean that's what you said in your article...
    I agree with you, but you're too reasonable for this "debate". I'd like to add that his "you're either with us or against us" stance was aggravated by yet another contradiction: "I won't allow haters to try and silence this debate, I'll silence you first!".

  17. #257
    Lesser Hivemind Node
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    868
    There is only one observation you need to make from his article: John Walker is saying, “I know you guys don’t want to read this. I don’t care. I will keep putting it out there.” Every business has to please customers and attract customers except journalism. Journalism is the only business I know where people can put out stuff everyone hates and, when the consumers complain, the journalist says, “You don’t like that? Well, HERE IS MORE OF IT!” It is a major reason why American newspapers all went belly-up (and it wasn’t the change of business model as other newspapers in other countries are doing fine). It is also why ratings for news channels such as CNN are in the toilet.

    Let me address his points of contention:
    Many women are mistreated and misrepresented within the games industry. It’s not a matter of opinion, a political position, or claim made to reinforce previous bias. It’s the demonstrable, sad truth.
    But, John Walker, how are we to know this demonstrable, sad truth?
    Ask women in the games industry – find out.
    This is circular logic. Asking women in the games industry is asking for their opinions. Opinions are not truth. If I go into any school and ask the students if the teacher is unfair, they would likely say yes. But is it demonstrable that the teacher is unfair? Is John Walker using any measuring sticks? Any statistics? Anything other than women’s opinions?

    http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/20...nature-denier/

  18. #258
    Obscure Node deadlyhabit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Murrica
    Posts
    24
    Quote Originally Posted by TaroYamada View Post
    Also, while it's possibly for other reasons than the recent focus on sexism here at RPS, some users are just leaving. I know some users who switched to PCGamer and since 3 months ago RPS Alexa rank has fallen over 600 places. This community has become rather hostile towards anybody who even slightly disagrees.
    Well as someone who just registered to the forum today, but played on servers etc and has been reading RPS for quite awhile, here's my daily gaming net rotation.
    RPS first: primarily for the personalities and maybe some press releases that slip through the cracks on other sites and indie stuff
    PC Gamer next: Standard PC press release stuff and maybe some slanted reviews, they do have some good pieces on weekends like Saturday Crapshoot
    IndieGames.com - see what's going on in higher profile indies
    Gamasutra - actual industry and business news and opinions

    later in the day:

    Forbes Erik Kain: one of my fave writers/critques, I also love Forbes gaming content because they don't rely on ads from the industry they're supposed to cover. He's down to earth does other entertainment stuff and generally will present counterpoints if there is a dissenting opinion from fans even if he doesn't agree with it unlike most gaming outlets.

    IndieRPGs: Indie dev Craig Stern runs this and I just check for updates daily as he covers all sorts of great RPGs that slip through the cracks, and well I love tactics, strategy and RPGs

    TIGSource and TIGSource devlogs: news straight from the indie community and directly from the devs.

    Other than that I bounce between some forums which inform me on console stuff and other AAA stuff, but combined with twitter and checking these sites a few times a day, I'm in the zone for gaming and gaming industry/issue coverage.

    Sometimes I even do interviews with devs and coverage myself as an amateur.

  19. #259
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Terra Australis Incognita
    Posts
    4,396
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Clearly, with the infusion of new accounts on this thread, that the discussion of the comment-free article has just migrated here.

    Because the forums weren't stupid enough.
    People are looking for a place to engage with the author, probably because they have an issue with how John presented himself. The comments are disabled on that article, what did you expect them to do? You can't call all of them stupid (though no doubt there are going to be strange arguments flying around) just because they disagree with John's article.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.

  20. #260
    Obscure Node deadlyhabit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Murrica
    Posts
    24
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Clearly, with the infusion of new accounts on this thread, that the discussion of the comment-free article has just migrated here.

    Because the forums weren't stupid enough.
    If it makes you feel any better I put off registering here as I already have a few forums that occupy more time than they should, that and forums tend to be idiot magnets who think they're better based on join dates/post counts like some secret club at times.
    It's pretty much e-high school clique shit, just it was one small barrier between this and article comments.
    Sorry to be a new guy to the eternal order.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •