Page 22 of 23 FirstFirst ... 1220212223 LastLast
Results 421 to 440 of 443
  1. #421
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    3,491
    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    That it comes cotton wooled in some bullshit about how his point of view is oppressed by RPS and John's stance and the comments section being turned off is silencing him, well, that's a thing alright but it doesn't take away from how utterly repugnant his words are and how completely full of shit that first post and pretty much all the ones afterwards are.
    This is my point - people like this are always going to be there, trying to twist the debate into being about something that it isn't (freedom of speech, accuracy of part of the statistics, etc) - hence you need to insulate your arguments from that stuff as much as possible. It's nigh-on impossible to do it entirely, but with the internet we can fix stuff after publishing. I'd like John to go back and fix the inaccuracies in the wage gap article, not because I want an apology or to feel like I've won, but because I want to be able to use it to argue against sexist people in future without it's credibility being easily questionable.

  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by Crea View Post
    What we should strive to achieve (whether or not it is possible is another matter), I think, is that as far as is reasonably practical, whatever systems and institutions we have in place in society should allow one to make choices which are potentially *unusual* for your gender (or race, or orientation etc), and for this not to matter. It's not about seeking to wipe away norms, or shift medians; rather, society needs to be as tolerant as it can be of shifts away from the median.

    There will always be counter examples to this; I have a friend who is a male midwife. Most women do not want a male midwife. Many women will quietly put up with having one. A significant minority will refuse and demand another. He accepts this as a consequence of being a statistical outlier, though it frustrates and impedes his training. How can you solve one discrimination (rejecting a midwife based on gender) by imposing another (rejecting the right to see a medical professional of your own gender when dealing with sensitive areas?)? Ultimately, you can't. So people muddle through.

    Counter examples aside, there are some solid, practical things we can do to help. Childcare provision helps women cultivate successful careers, for example. Pool parental leave. Let husbands take some of the strain. Many women will still choose to remain with their children, some husbands will never acquiesce to such a career-impeding move, but many couples would jump at the chance.

    And for all the sound and fury in this debate, there has been almost nothing said about those things which make the games industry a really hostile place for women (and men); its hostility to family life! This debate is framed almost entirely from the viewpoints of right-on young 20-somethings, yet the industry's chronic instability is a huge reason why the it is populated with a kind of itinerant caste of singletons and young men!
    Interesting example in the male midwife - sometimes, there is no socially-just "right" answer which trumps all others. As I once heard someone important say (and I'm paraphrasing really badly), society is a balance of often competing rights.

    I have a question. You mention that we should not attempt to shift social norms, or do away with them entirely. Do you think that the existence of these norms implies that the statistical outliers you go on to exemplify with the male midwife, will always suffer some sort of discrimination? I suspect I know what your answer will be: that such people recognise they defy expectation, and that will, occasionally, make people uncomfortable. When it comes to who's serving you at a cafe, you have no right to refuse, but when it comes to something like personal medical care, especially of a physically intimate nature, you do.

    Moreover, would you accept that these social norms are themselves sometimes implicitly sexist (or discriminatory) and if our own cultural sensibilities are, by definition, products of these norms, how can we tell when we should do something about them, or conversely when we've reached an equal society? In other words, if our view of what is fair or equal or reasonable is informed by unjust, unequal, unfair social normals, by what yardstick can we measure our progress? I ask this question because, broadly, i'm inclined to agree with the sentiment, but is it not the case that we do attempt to modify our social norms when we do things like decriminalise homosexuality? One could argue that this is a chicken and egg argument however: are laws changing social norms, or are we just reflecting the natural evolution of those social norms in our legal system? In which case, what is causing them to change?

    I'm not trolling, I just find this topic highly interesting. I often read the argument "but women don't choose these sorts of jobs" and the counterpoint "women are socialised to discriminate against themselves". It's a bit like women in many extreme Islamic cultures being socialised to "know their place," as was the case for many many centuries in the west. Women didn't believe they deserved things like equal pay, or suffrage.

    All that said, I find these sorts of conversations also betray a value judgement people are unconsciously making: that certain jobs or careers are more valuable or important than others. Who is to say whether full time parentage is a less valuable or ambitious life choice than being the CEO of a fortune 500/ftse100 company? In other words, observing the figures for the number of women in IT and reaching the conclusion there's something wrong with them and that women are being discriminated against, reveals the unconscious value judgement that the things men are currently choosing to spend their time doing are more important, and should be more desirable, than the things women are predominantly presently choosing to spend their time doing ;) We never seem to worry as much about the number of men in traditionally female-dominated careers. True, the only impediment to them choosing such careers was/is peer pressure, but if we've reached a point where we're discussing whether adopted social roles are inherently and unconsciously sexist, this also seems up for debate, as does our view of the importance and value of traditionally female-dominated careers.

    On your final paragraph, I'm a C++ developer and a gamer (for want of a better word). For a long time I wanted to work in the games industry, until I started to read stories from people who actually did. I'm not a parent, but I do believe in a work life balance!
    Last edited by RandomTangent; 08-04-2013 at 01:00 PM.

  3. #423
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    852
    Quote Originally Posted by Crea View Post

    Salaries. I don't doubt there's a salary gap. The only way, I think, you can attribute this to sexism is if you define sexism to include the kinds of emergent properties of the intersection of biology, culture and society that means that women are more likely to work part time, more likely to take career breaks to look after children, more likely to be more family-focused (than men), less likely to negotiate on salary etc. Perhaps the word 'sexism' is best avoided; it implies deliberate agency by some malefactor. What we're really talking about here is the result, I think, of cultural inertia. We have a society which expects all women and all men to work, more or less, but our cultural values still lean heavily towards women taking a disproportionate amount of the childcare and housework burden, such that their ability to focus solely on their careers is impaired. It's even baked into the legal system in most countries (contrast maternity and paternity rights). And remember, women themselves contribute to this imperfect status quo as well - most women *want* to be the ones who take parental leave.
    The concept of being expected to assume gender roles, especially when those gender roles were chosen for you (that they're now ingrained in society is, obviously, part of the reason they're especially problematic as you say) would still fall under the banner of sexism. These roles being predominantly and historically enforced by men and so forth until we get to and continue to perpetuate where we are now with the gender-specific expectations.

    If it's a distinction that you require, rather than jettisoning the sexism term, it's perhaps better to use something like occupational sexism to narrow the field down if you really need to draw such a distinction. It helps move away from the idea that sexism is, crap example but I'm tired now, something purveyed by a Sid The Sexist style character rather than a more sociological phenomena that encompasses the stereotypes, attitudes, assumed gender roles and stuff as well as the Sid The Sexist style sexism.

    Tired and sleepy shorter version, it already considered a term expansive enough to cover this particular issue so you're cool.
    My actions are in no way born out of some sort of Darwinist offensive
    I just get a bit fidgety times
    Steam

  4. #424
    Obscure Node
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    The concept of being expected to assume gender roles, especially when those gender roles were chosen for you (that they're now ingrained in society is, obviously, part of the reason they're especially problematic as you say) would still fall under the banner of sexism. These roles being predominantly and historically enforced by men and so forth until we get to and continue to perpetuate where we are now with the gender-specific expectations.

    If it's a distinction that you require, rather than jettisoning the sexism term, it's perhaps better to use something like occupational sexism to narrow the field down if you really need to draw such a distinction. It helps move away from the idea that sexism is, crap example but I'm tired now, something purveyed by a Sid The Sexist style character rather than a more sociological phenomena that encompasses the stereotypes, attitudes, assumed gender roles and stuff as well as the Sid The Sexist style sexism.

    Tired and sleepy shorter version, it already considered a term expansive enough to cover this particular issue so you're cool.
    On reflection, I somewhat agree; sexism as a term is unfortunately a bit of a dog whistle when it comes to attracting attention from the but-what-about-men crowd, but I'm happy that it can encompass these slightly deeper concepts than the Sid-the-Sexist basics. So long as it is recognized that the issue is deeper, more subtle, more pervasive. I think a lot of the nonsense in this and other threads stems from this basic misinterpretation; a lot of the recent articles have not attempted to engage with any of these nuances.


    @RandomTangent

    Some interesting threads to your post. Here's what I think (I think); we should attempt to shift norms. We cannot eradicate the idea that there *are*, and always will be things considered 'normal' and things which fall outside that range. The legal and structural frameworks which emerge (parental rights etc) in response to certain norms can, in fact, also be used to proactively shift those norms. There are concrete examples, here and there, of progressive laws shifting public attitudes in advance of any emergent desire (seat belt + anti-smoking laws spring to mind), though I think that these are edge cases; the 'closer to home' a particular social attitude is (i.e. deeply held by many), the harder it is to shift (if it's possible at all). There are plenty of examples of norms shifting but of the legal and structural frameworks being left behind; this results in social tension of some sort, and is usually bad.

    Your deeper point of how we decide what to shift (i.e. which norms do we decide no longer fit our vision of ideal? who decides?), I can't really answer. Again, these properties are emergent. There's no agency. Or rather, there's a hundred million agents acting in concert to produce an unpredictable outcome.

    All of the many things you raise points to the complexity of this question. It defies easy answers.

  5. #425
    Lesser Hivemind Node
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    978
    Quote Originally Posted by Crea View Post
    . It's not that women want to join the industry and are put off by current attitudes; they just don't want to join. Now, how we change *that* fact (skipping past the assumption that it *is* worth changing) is the interesting question, and it entails a lot more than curtailing sexual imagery at GDC (though it's a good start).
    One of the problems I think with this part of the debate is there's not really a lot of research done into why anyone (of either gender) opts for a particular career. Government initiatives designed to encourage women into the STEM fields have been moderately successful, but even then there is a definite skew in which areas they're going into. I'm not really sure we can say it's a problem in the first place - if women don't want to work in a given field we can't exactly force them.
    Salaries. I don't doubt there's a salary gap.
    One other thing to consider on top of the reasons you gave is the effect of fairly recent incentives to bring women into the tech industries. I know from my own experience in IT we've had a sizeable contingent of female employees entering the industry over the past ten years or so as a direct result of these. I'd therefore suspect any salary comparison would be skewed due to a significant chunk, if not majority, of female employees in such roles having less than ten years in the field.
    It's also worth noting, at least in the UK, it's actually illegal to pay a woman less than a man for the same job (and vice versa), so HR tend to be particularly jumpy around that point (equal pay claims tend to get expensive fast).
    And remember, women themselves contribute to this imperfect status quo as well - most women *want* to be the ones who take parental leave.
    If anything the sexism is against men here rather than women. Since legally the most I get is two weeks paternity leave having me take a career break to raise a family isn't an option. It would be interesting to see the effect if maternity and paternity leave was equalised under the law however; while I suspect you may be correct that most women actually want to be the one to stay at home, I suspect the figures would certainly be less heavily skewed.
    Sometimes something is wrong, and the 'two sides to every story' crowd are simply giving validation to some seriously wacky bullshit. But you've got to be careful where you draw the line between ideas that are beyond the pale (see Jade Raymond Phenomena), and ideas that you disagree with.
    I think John falls foul of the traditional feminist split with his articles.Yes there's a sexism problem, but while he decries the sexualisation of women as part of the issue I'd say rather it's a lack of male sexualisation. As a result, I do sometimes think he comes across as a somewhat over-zealous Victorian gent.

  6. #426
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
    Posts
    4,323
    Quote Originally Posted by archonsod View Post
    If anything the sexism is against men here rather than women. Since legally the most I get is two weeks paternity leave having me take a career break to raise a family isn't an option. It would be interesting to see the effect if maternity and paternity leave was equalised under the law however; while I suspect you may be correct that most women actually want to be the one to stay at home, I suspect the figures would certainly be less heavily skewed.
    I think again this falls into practicalities though. Men don't lactate, so fulltime house husband duties for babies/infants is largely out (though I know a few house husbands with older children). Sure formula's an option, but given 'breast is best' has been advocated as the optimum route to go by health care experts for the past decade, you'd struggle to find many people who would elect to go the other way out of choice vs necessity.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

    Probable Replicant

    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me

    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    He who controls the Doge controls the universe

  7. #427
    Obscure Node
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by archonsod View Post
    Since legally the most I get is two weeks paternity leave having me take a career break to raise a family isn't an option. It would be interesting to see the effect if maternity and paternity leave was equalised under the law however; while I suspect you may be correct that most women actually want to be the one to stay at home, I suspect the figures would certainly be less heavily skewed.

    Sweden's the country to look at. 400-odd days of pooled parental leave. The changes have been fairly swift and marked. Here's an interesting quote from the article.

    "Sweden, he said, faced a vicious circle. Women continued to take parental leave not just for tradition’s sake but because their pay was often lower, thus perpetuating pay differences. Companies, meanwhile, made clear to men that staying home with baby was not compatible with a career.

    Society is a mirror of the family,” Mr. Westerberg said.“The only way to achieve equality in society is to achieve equality in the home. Getting fathers to share the parental leave is an essential part of that.”

  8. #428
    Obscure Node
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I think again this falls into practicalities though. Men don't lactate, so fulltime house husband duties for babies/infants is largely out (though I know a few house husbands with older children). Sure formula's an option, but given 'breast is best' has been advocated as the optimum route to go by health care experts for the past decade, you'd struggle to find many people who would elect to go the other way out of choice vs necessity.
    This is surmountable by expressing, which most breast feeding women will do any way after a few weeks just to get a break on the night feeds!

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Crea View Post
    Some interesting threads to your post. Here's what I think (I think); we should attempt to shift norms. We cannot eradicate the idea that there *are*, and always will be things considered 'normal' and things which fall outside that range. The legal and structural frameworks which emerge (parental rights etc) in response to certain norms can, in fact, also be used to proactively shift those norms. There are concrete examples, here and there, of progressive laws shifting public attitudes in advance of any emergent desire (seat belt + anti-smoking laws spring to mind), though I think that these are edge cases; the 'closer to home' a particular social attitude is (i.e. deeply held by many), the harder it is to shift (if it's possible at all). There are plenty of examples of norms shifting but of the legal and structural frameworks being left behind; this results in social tension of some sort, and is usually bad.

    Your deeper point of how we decide what to shift (i.e. which norms do we decide no longer fit our vision of ideal? who decides?), I can't really answer. Again, these properties are emergent. There's no agency. Or rather, there's a hundred million agents acting in concert to produce an unpredictable outcome.

    All of the many things you raise points to the complexity of this question. It defies easy answers.
    Interesting - thanks for the response. I probably agree with most of that, but I wanted to highlight the bits in bold because these have always been deeply held beliefs of mine, and are the source of my frustration with polarising, isolationist, un-inclusive rhetoric in political and social dialogue. To my mind, there is no place for ideological ranting - that tends to be more about the writer, their need for there to be two sides in opposition, their need for a cause to champion, a team to chant for. I find that sort of tribalism divisive and non-constructive. I alluded to this in an earlier post, but it's the sort of impotent, poorly understood anger people often direct at those who simply question their position. You mean you can't see why this is sexist?!?! How dare you! Righteous indignation doesn't take us anywhere, it doesn't advance the discussion. If something is so obviously right, it should be easy to argue its corner. And I think we have demonstrated over these few posts why "obviously right" is a rare beast.
    Last edited by RandomTangent; 08-04-2013 at 02:18 PM.

  10. #430
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
    Posts
    4,323
    Quote Originally Posted by Crea View Post
    This is surmountable by expressing, which most breast feeding women will do any way after a few weeks just to get a break on the night feeds!
    For sure. However on the whole it's a lot more advantageous from a day to day practical perspective for the female to undertake the early childcare duties than the male because she's right there, vs in some office miles away. I'm not saying it's right, or the way it should be, it just is.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

    Probable Replicant

    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me

    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    He who controls the Doge controls the universe

  11. #431
    Lesser Hivemind Node
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    978
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I think again this falls into practicalities though. Men don't lactate, so fulltime house husband duties for babies/infants is largely out (though I know a few house husbands with older children). Sure formula's an option, but given 'breast is best' has been advocated as the optimum route to go by health care experts for the past decade, you'd struggle to find many people who would elect to go the other way out of choice vs necessity.
    It's a question of actually having the choice in the first place. As the Sweden example brings up, at present we're essentially asking women to choose between kids or a career. In an ideal world of course there wouldn't need to be a choice, but since this isn't an ideal world we owe it to ourselves to mitigate that somewhat. Sure, having the father stay at home may not be optimal or desirable in all circumstances, but at least you're leaving the choice to the couple in question rather than forcing their hand.

  12. #432
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
    Posts
    4,323
    Quote Originally Posted by archonsod View Post
    It's a question of actually having the choice in the first place. As the Sweden example brings up, at present we're essentially asking women to choose between kids or a career. In an ideal world of course there wouldn't need to be a choice, but since this isn't an ideal world we owe it to ourselves to mitigate that somewhat. Sure, having the father stay at home may not be optimal or desirable in all circumstances, but at least you're leaving the choice to the couple in question rather than forcing their hand.
    Swedens so far ahead of everyone else on so many levels socially though it's hard to see the model being adopted elsewhere (least of all the states or the UK) without a phenomenal amount of progressive action in other areas unfortunately.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

    Probable Replicant

    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me

    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    He who controls the Doge controls the universe

  13. #433
    Activated Node Utnac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Men don't lactate,
    Au Contraire

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...lactate&sc=rss

  14. #434
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
    Posts
    4,323
    Quote Originally Posted by Utnac View Post
    Right at the end...

    " In short, men may not have full-fledged breasts but they certainly can lactate, under extreme circumstances.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

    Probable Replicant

    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me

    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    He who controls the Doge controls the universe

  15. #435
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sparkasaurusmex's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,371
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I think again this falls into practicalities though. Men don't lactate, so fulltime house husband duties for babies/infants is largely out (though I know a few house husbands with older children). Sure formula's an option, but given 'breast is best' has been advocated as the optimum route to go by health care experts for the past decade, you'd struggle to find many people who would elect to go the other way out of choice vs necessity.
    There're pumps, you know.

    sincerely,
    Mr. Mom

  16. #436
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
    Posts
    4,323
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkasaurusmex View Post
    There're pumps, you know.

    sincerely,
    Mr. Mom
    Already addressed earlier on.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

    Probable Replicant

    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me

    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    He who controls the Doge controls the universe

  17. #437
    Network Hub
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    317
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Swedens so far ahead of everyone else on so many levels socially though it's hard to see the model being adopted elsewhere..
    As a swede I find that statement amusing. Don't believe everything you read.
    Last edited by crazy horse; 08-04-2013 at 10:30 PM.

  18. #438
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
    Posts
    4,323
    Quote Originally Posted by crazy horse View Post
    As a swede I find that statement amusing. Don't believe everything you read.
    Oh I don't doubt there aren't still issues in Sweden, but compared to a lot of other places I'd say you're doing well.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

    Probable Replicant

    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me

    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    He who controls the Doge controls the universe

  19. #439
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    2,212
    Canada offers a full year of parental leave between the 2 parents to divide with partial pay.

  20. #440
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
    Posts
    4,323
    Quote Originally Posted by Moraven View Post
    Canada offers a full year of parental leave between the 2 parents to divide with partial pay.
    How does that work out in terms of how people play it exactly? Do couples do the 50/50 thing or is it principally the higher earner who supports whilst the other does the childcare?
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

    Probable Replicant

    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me

    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    He who controls the Doge controls the universe

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •