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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I think it's already upon us.
    What it reminds me of is the "tits or gtfo" or "I see what's wrong with the pic: she's not in the kitchen" memes: Jokes that are used "ironically," with full implication of the quotation marks, where they use irony as a smokescreen to try and get away with saying shit that they want to be maintained as the status quo while also self-righteously pretending to take a progressive perspective.
    As someone who used to be really into the whole ironic joke thing, it took me a while to realize that other people were taking these things seriously. We used to tell "edgy" jokes at lunch all the time in highschool. We explained it with all the usual defenses, that we interspersed blonde and dead baby jokes and whatever, but we said some really bad stuff including holocaust jokes and the black jew joke and such. I was the only non-Jewish person at the table, although you wouldn't know I wasn't from looking at me, so that was another reason we didn't take what we were doing seriously.

    We did a lot of black people jokes as well as jewish and women jokes. And if we saw the opportunity we did some actually clever stuff that didn't rely on stereotypes, but that is hard work and we couldn't have kept up the endless jokes if we only did that. We really were just obsessed with the mixing of words and ideas in certain ways. That was the justification that kept my parents from being really upset over what I said. We got suspended, well I did, I said it was all my idea and so my 2 friends only got a day of inschool which doesn't count on your record, and the even more fringe participants got nothing.

    I got all huffy about my suspension since I didn't think I had done anything serious. I stopped telling the jokes but, not because I really believed I was hurting people. In the end what got me to understand that being clever in that way, even though it wasn't for race reasons, wasn't worth the negative consequences, was when I had told someone about my suspension and the kind of jokes we had been telling and he started in to a racist rant with the n-word involved and it scared the shit out of me. Some of the people I had told jokes with were incredibly serious and racist and I had made them think that I, and my friends, supported them.

    Luckily that guy didn't know my full name, which is totally unique and easy to google, or where I lived, because I literally ran away from him as he was ramping up his rant. And after that I didn't ever tell those kind of jokes again, even the blonde and ginger and housewife ones. Because it occurred to me that at least the woman-targeted ones were also taken seriously by some people.

    I guess my main point is that likely 25-50% of these people aren't hiding behind irony, but sincerely believing that the jokes are ironic, like haha how could anyone believe this stuff these days on top of it involving clever juxtaposition of words and ideas. Which isn't to say that I think they should tell the jokes, now that I've been made painfully aware of the consequences for many years since I told them in highschool.

    At first I tried to explain to people that most of the people telling the jokes meant them in an ironic ridiculing of people who believed it way, but then I had it explained to me that for non-cis-male and/or PoC it was a safety issue to try and distinguish between the two, and that it was hard to do if you yourself weren't both a previous practioner of ironic bigotry and also well educated in why its not actually harmless.

    And of course the free speechers who even if they aren't serious and understand the consequences, tell the jokes anyway because "Stop censoring me!", although of course people who ask them not to tell the jokes are not actually physically censoring them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Similarly, it pertains to the "games are art" crowd, where gamers seek the benefits of the Art label to legitimize their habits but the vast majority of the culture does little to examine and critique the medium beyond "Dude, MGS2 is, like, such a mindfuck, man." True confrontation is rare and either slathered in fanservice honey to make it palatable to the straight white male 18-25 bracket or so far up its own ass that it's more a reflection of the cynical pretense of its creators than an actual statement to the world - which is to say we act like it's progress when our ass-kicking, cigar-chomping, mass-murdering marine has tits, or we get a giant stamp that says ART put on a forgettable mound of sepia-toned crap.
    This is what I believe Roger Ebert sees when he denigrates gaming as an art form.
    This I totally agree with. Defending women protagonists with "But you get to look at a hot chick all day" is not a valid strategy for encouraging diversity. And God smite whatever idiot thought adding sepia filters to user friendly art programs was a good idea. Sepia is part of an artistic vision, just adding sepia to shit does not make it art.

  2. #42
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    One of my favorite gaming buddies is a dude from Long Island who would have drank himself to death at this point - and I'm talking tearing up the LIE at a buck twenty on a motorcycle while blind drunk, waking up inside a bush across from his home, motorcycle some fifty feet away - had he not gone full hog into World of Warcraft. For him, gaming was a net positive use of his free time. But the same principle applies: It is a distraction - in this case from his self-destructive habits - but not an end in itself.

    More commonly I encounter folks who say they would not have social lives were it not for gaming but it becomes a self-serving prophecy: They have no social lives because they never go out, and gaming facilitates that. No positive habits can manifest because they are caught in an escapist world and such is enough. It's the digital equivalent to being a pothead: All they wanna to is smoke pot. Smoke before work, smoke as soon as they get home from work, smoke all day on the weekends. Is it any wonder nothing ever progresses?
    Is that really such a bad thing though? Would it be better for me to be at the bar getting drunk and talking about sports with people? Or whatever people do?

    If it prevents you from doing things like work or school then it's a problem, but other than that, who cares?

  3. #43
    Lesser Hivemind Node Timofee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    One of my favorite gaming buddies is a dude from Long Island who would have drank himself to death at this point - and I'm talking tearing up the LIE at a buck twenty on a motorcycle while blind drunk, waking up inside a bush across from his home, motorcycle some fifty feet away - had he not gone full hog into World of Warcraft. For him, gaming was a net positive use of his free time. But the same principle applies: It is a distraction - in this case from his self-destructive habits - but not an end in itself.

    More commonly I encounter folks who say they would not have social lives were it not for gaming but it becomes a self-serving prophecy: They have no social lives because they never go out, and gaming facilitates that. No positive habits can manifest because they are caught in an escapist world and such is enough. It's the digital equivalent to being a pothead: All they wanna to is smoke pot. Smoke before work, smoke as soon as they get home from work, smoke all day on the weekends. Is it any wonder nothing ever progresses?
    Surely the key here is balance though? You seem to imply that anyone who takes up gaming will be slavishly devoted to it and spend their entire time either playing, or wishing they were playing. I'll not deny that there is a certain subset of people where this is true, but to refer back to your original point about never wanting to introduce others to gaming, this seems extreme. By that token you could say the same about any activity that yields no obvious, quantifiable benefit - so arguably any form of entertainment...

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    Is that really such a bad thing though? Would it be better for me to be at the bar getting drunk and talking about sports with people? Or whatever people do?

    If it prevents you from doing things like work or school then it's a problem, but other than that, who cares?
    This is my opinion as well. Why would it be better to read a book by myself or go get drunk with a bunch of people where all we do is act like idiots?

    And the same for sports. Watching the Superbowl is not an objectively valuable activity.

    If someone can pay the bills and not have huge health issues, what they do with their non-work time is their business.

  5. #45
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    Is that really such a bad thing though? Would it be better for me to be at the bar getting drunk and talking about sports with people? Or whatever people do?

    If it prevents you from doing things like work or school then it's a problem, but other than that, who cares?
    I'm not saying otherwise. I'm not even saying that it's such a bad thing to be a pothead, provided, as you said, they can still function.

    What I am saying is that I want little to do with these people.

    As for the destructive bit that you asked about previously, I believe there is a sense that this culture wants to both become mainstream yet also tune out from society. This dichotomy is why we get the John Walker rants: Shit said here would never fly out in the world, and when you get a cadre of folks from here together in the real world, it's scary just how much they are not of that world.

    I say this because I'm surrounded by such in the world now that I'm working pure IT, whereas I was previously working in a succession of other fields, and it's frankly scary just how much my current cohort are devoid of social consciousness, or indeed consciousness of just how divorced they are from dealing with everything. Sure, they function - they pay rent and don't get arrested - but they're not what I would call active citizens.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by His Master's Voice View Post
    That kinda applies to everything in one's life, not just enjoyment. I however fail to see how your previous post could be classified as "scrutiny, alternative perspective, and attempts at improvement", unless of course you consider poor sarcasm to be just that.
    I'm not sure where the difficulty is.

    Gaming's subculture is saturated with a culture of hate, usually taking the form of misogyny and racism, and is often employed by the very same people who feign a progressive perspective in a public context due to how deeply entrenched it is. Racial epithets are routinely spewed by more than just 14 year olds on Call of Duty, entire communities are extremely inflammatory and uncomfortable towards women (competitive level fighting games being one such example), even prospective amateur game development itself usually holds these kinds of attitudes up for the norm.

    Gaming tries to be observed as an artistic medium by its stronger proponents but it's usually not held up under the microscope in the same ways that other mediums are. The people who want artistic credibility do so in order to feel validated as people for their marginalized pastime rather than any actual forward-thinking or larger point in any of it. People argue to Roger Ebert that games are art, but the majority of the displayed contentions are based around the fact that the game being presented is merely good.

    Gaming culture actively encourages a pessimistic slant to the point where any amount of sincerity is usually abandoned in favor of irony that's actually designed more for self-preservation of ego rather than an actual point. The above hatespewing usually takes the form of ironic jokes ("lol, get in the kitchen") from those who publicly reject it, but it's mostly to fit in with the tone of the conversation. It's rare that anyone wants to actually sit down and deal with the problem with in full because of the escapist nature of games in the first place usually serving as a pretense for "I dun curr."

    http://www.cracked.com/article_18571...ure-gamer.html

    Everyone wants to be recognized as legitimate and not a god damn anti-social basement dwelling child, but many of those same people still strive to perpetuate that stereotype because they want full reign to be in a bubble outside the norm.

    These are all deliberate observations. Beyond the encouragement for Nalano to bring more people along for the ride, there was no sarcasm in the first place. The entire point was jumping off of what he said - most decently adjusted people he knows are not gamers and he wouldn't be in any position to suggest it to them, both for addiction reasons and now for the community, which he seems to have taken a similar stance on if his other posts have been any indication.

    If you're asking how we move into the "attempts at improvement" part, I'd say a nice place to start would be to make all of this more apparent and to tell the average gamer as a whole to stop acting like a diseased shit-stain, but I think we're both aware how successful that's bound to be.

    By association, gaming is something that many of us would not entice others to get involved in, even if we ourselves have had positive experiences from it.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I'm not saying otherwise. I'm not even saying that it's such a bad thing to be a pothead, provided, as you said, they can still function.

    What I am saying is that I want little to do with these people.

    As for the destructive bit that you asked about previously, I believe there is a sense that this culture wants to both become mainstream yet also tune out from society. This dichotomy is why we get the John Walker rants: Shit said here would never fly out in the world, and when you get a cadre of folks from here together in the real world, it's scary just how much they are not of that world.

    I say this because I'm surrounded by such in the world now that I'm working pure IT, whereas I was previously working in a succession of other fields, and it's frankly scary just how much my current cohort are devoid of social consciousness, or indeed consciousness of just how divorced they are from dealing with everything. Sure, they function - they pay rent and don't get arrested - but they're not what I would call active citizens.
    The problem is that the mainstream doesn't change. Its not your culture that becomes important to the mainstream, its a twisted, horrifying parody of the culture you love that gets consumed by big corporations for sale to the masses. Look what happened to pop punk. As soon as they gave popular culture a foothold the whole purpose of the genre was destroyed. Now its just songs about your rap-metal loving semi/ex girlfriends and what not. The only slight saving grace is they managed to get popular culture to accept the obsession with food. And those are pop punk things. Real Punk was never cool. When was the last time a Social Distortion inspired band sold 10million records?

    The games in the popular culture are NOT the games that the culture developed around. CoD2399965 and Halo238 are popular, yes, but god forbid you play Doom you no life basement dweller(note: I do not and have never played Doom or even Cod, just Halo at a party mostly and I hated it). LoL is a huge popular success, but if you like Demigods or even HoN you are a homo loser dork or a troglodyte respectively.

  8. #48
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    The problem is that the mainstream doesn't change.
    But it does.

    It so does.

    Haven't you been reading the news lately?
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  9. #49
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    It changes - awkwardly, usually slowly, sometimes going in a full cycle over an extended period of time - but mainstream change isn't completely impossible. It usually just takes certain generations or concentrated groups of perspectives dying off.

  10. #50
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    Nalano builds a strong case against gaming culture, but I'm not sure how much that supports his original position that he wouldn't encourage anyone to get into gaming. Sure, it makes sense for him not to want to encourage anyone to get involved in gamer culture, but it seems quite a stretch to imagine that particularly many people who play video games are involved in gamer culture. Most video game players will be able to happily exist apart from that, only occasionally looking towards gamer culture and thinking "Hmm, gamers are weird."
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  11. #51
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    If gaming resonates strongly enough with someone, it could progress into being engrossed enough in the community that you get exposure to that kind of nonsense.

    There are also the addictive qualities that he was talking about.

    It's not 100%, obviously, but there's plenty of reasonable expectation that people can start moving into that groupthink mentality if gaming becomes as much of an important and relevant pastime to that person as others that are already part of that culture.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    But it does.

    It so does.

    Haven't you been reading the news lately?
    You mean gay marriage? They've been fighting that fight since the 60s. Gaming has only been pushing to enter the mainstream since the late 90s. Plus they had the whole intersection with race, class, and feminism to push them ahead. Hardly comparable to an entertainment medium. Look at music. Popular country music is boy/girl songs, popular pop punk is boy/girl songs, popular indie is boy/girl songs. Because Pop is boy/girl songs and pop just takes a thin veneer of these genres and says its edgy or w/e. How much class warfare did pop take from punk? None.

    And even if games became popular it wouldn't change the status of GAMERS. Your prototypical gamer would still be a loser. Its better to reign in hell than serve in heaven and what not.

  13. #53
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus neema_t's Avatar
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    Wow, I thought this thread would be one of those that gets maybe one reply and then sinks to the bottom of the page in a day, and by the next day is three pages back. I don't have a lot of time to reply right now so I'm just basically saying thank you all for your input and I look forward to having time to read all these responses, and it would appear that she loves the look of Surgery Simulator 2013. I think I'll download it.

    Kisses.

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    Note that a lot of replies are wildly off topic :P

  15. #55
    Lesser Hivemind Node Timofee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    Gaming's subculture is saturated with a culture of hate, usually taking the form of misogyny and racism, and is often employed by the very same people who feign a progressive perspective in a public context due to how deeply entrenched it is. Racial epithets are routinely spewed by more than just 14 year olds on Call of Duty, entire communities are extremely inflammatory and uncomfortable towards women (competitive level fighting games being one such example), even prospective amateur game development itself usually holds these kinds of attitudes up for the norm.

    [snip]
    Out of interest, do you believe gaming to be worse than other subcultures?

    Personally I'm not sure...

    On the one hand I absolutely see Nalano's point about how frightening / depressing it can be to watch these stereotypical gamers interacting in wider society, and indeed how divorced from reality / social norms they can appear to be. However I wonder whether it is because I can identify, at least in part, as a member of that subculture that I am more acutely aware of their behaviour.

    I'd compare it to the idea that all of us find, at one point or another, our families embarrassing. For example they may make a scene in a restaurant which leaves us feeling mortified, however at all the other tables in that restaurant the likelihood is they pay little attention (depending on the magnitude of the act I suppose) and are instead more focused on their own group and the fact their Aunty Mavis just told a particularly crude joke, which has left them feeling similarly embarrassed.

    On the other hand I'm not sure I can think of another group more toxic than gamers. I mean I don't believe that the local amateur dramatics society are back stage telling anti-Semitic jokes, or the members of the National Trust sit around calling one and other fags. But then again perhaps this is the whole familiarity thing - as I don't routinely interact with these people I'm unable to judge.

    The only example I can think of where a subculture comes close to gaming would be a subset of football fans - and I'm actually interested in football so again I wonder whether it is the fact I am more familiar with it.

    The other thought I had (warning!) was: is there something that characterizes certain activities that bring the worst out in people - obvious answer yes, but bear with me... An obvious example is the competitive nature of certain pastimes. If gaming is arguably the worst example of a mainstream subculture then is it inherent in its nature - e.g. the competitive nature of many games; the anonymity; the social connectivity and scale - allowing similarly prejudiced people to come together, share and perhaps reinforce their world viewpoint, thus making them more militant and hostile to 'outsiders'

    And finally if this is the case then which comes first (if such a thing can be identified)? Is gaming predisposed to attract these maladjusted individuals or does it create them? Or perhaps more likely is it a bit of both.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    I'm not sure where the difficulty is.
    I'm not psychic. I had no ability to read the post you just wrote when I was reading your snipe at non gaming specific social issues.

    You seem hung up on the community aspect of gaming as it's major turn off. But that says nothing about the medium itself.

    Not sure what the art part is about. I mean, I get what you're saying, I just don't see why would anyone factor that into the decision to introduce someone to gaming.

    The addictive aspect of gaming isn't really about gaming either.

  17. #57
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus DaftPunk's Avatar
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    Well i have this new girl,we are together for about two months and yesterday i was browsing through her shit on computer and i found installed COD 1/2,Black Ops 3 haha :D And of course Sims 3..I never talk about games because you know,girls have this idea about them,that you're childsih if you play them so this was quite surprise to find out.

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    I think that most of the problem is in the competitive games, shooters and mobas and fighting games and MMOs.

    How many DnD groups sit around calling each other f***** and n****** all the time?

  19. #59
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    I think that most of the problem is in the competitive games, shooters and mobas and fighting games and MMOs.

    How many DnD groups sit around calling each other f***** and n****** all the time?
    That doesn't just stem to women though. I don't play MMOs with people I don't know after I found guild communities. I by chance made friends with people and we've been in guilds ever since. I also play with my real life friends.

    I don't play competitive games without other people who I like and respect and get along with. It's why I play PS2 with the RPS community. I wouldn't play CoD solo if you paid me.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    That doesn't just stem to women though. I don't play MMOs with people I don't know after I found guild communities. I by chance made friends with people and we've been in guilds ever since. I also play with my real life friends.

    I don't play competitive games without other people who I like and respect and get along with. It's why I play PS2 with the RPS community. I wouldn't play CoD solo if you paid me.
    I didn't say anything about gender...

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