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  1. #21
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    I would say it is I'm sorry but we've had 50 years of trying to be peaceful to this crazy nation and yet they still shout at us. Also I feel bad for the people we go into Iraq to topple a dictator why not North Korea.

  2. #22
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    Them shouting at you isn't really enough reason for thousands of people to die.

    Of course, if you live in south korea or japan, or you are planning to be in the army that fights in the war then that's another matter. But it's easier to consider wars that happen half way around the world and don't involve us.

  3. #23
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    Westerners need to realize that we are under real threat. NK is currently deploying nuclear missiles with range over my home and workplace!! Yes I ask for war, but I have my justification. First thing first, NK has issued OFFICIAL DECLARATION OF WAR. It is no longer a war crime to bomb them hell out!

    I want to be at peace and even friendly with everyone, but there are just some people you cannot reason with. Koreans (I mean ALL Koreans, be them from North or South) are greedy, arrogant and dangerously ambitious in a way you westerners would not understand.

    Of course I don't speak for other Chinese. As I know my government for one is working its best to cool things down. 21st century of Chamberlain appeasement.
    Last edited by squirrel; 07-04-2013 at 11:10 AM.

  4. #24
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    It's believed by analysis here that North Korea's recent actions are more of responses to internal threats than external (which is very elusive, I still cannot recall any international incident that trigger our fat boy Kim).
    Right, and I suppose the question is how far Kim has to go to secure his own power. Will he be dared into giving 'the order'? He supposedly spent quite a lot of time abroad, so I have to assume he is aware just how incredibly out-gunned the North Korean armed forces are. But it's still dangerous to have so much hanging on the decision of one man.

    I don't know enough about South Korea to really comment on their possible courses of action, but it's an interesting thought!

    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Not this time. There is a Chinese proverb "A Young depot will leave the whole nation in doubt." This is exactly what is happening in NK. You are right about Kim's intention, but I'm afraid the end result will be far worse than western general public believe it to be. The problem is, those factions "in doubt" are already taking real actions. Those faction leaders have from time to time visited our capital to gain support from our government, only to be shouted off (really shouted off, those meetings as reported by our news media all ended in unpleasant way) for good reason.
    Thanks for sharing this interesting story! I hadn't heard about it, and the media here in Europe are pretty confused about the state of the relation between North Korea and its 'communist brothers' in the PRC.

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    It's an absurd pantomime except with real weapons. The DPRK knows that any actual military action it takes would result in swift retribution accomplishing absolutely nothing. Unfortunately, we have to take it seriously, which is exactly what they want.
    Exactly, the major problem is probably the location of Seoul so close to the border. Bombarding that city with artillery is pretty much the only thing North Korea could do, but the results would be pretty horrible for everyone involved. From what I've seen about their army it's an outfit of horribly outdated 1950s and 1960s technology coupled with a serious lack of training due to all kinds of shortages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    Sometimes it's necessary.
    Let's just say that the credibility of the United States about which wars are necessary and which are not isn't quite what it used to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    Also I feel bad for the people we go into Iraq to topple a dictator why not North Korea.
    That's not why the United States & the United Kingdom invaded Iraq. It was a narrative that came up afterwards when it turned out there was 1) no connection between Iraq and al-Qaida and 2) no proof Iraq still had biochemical or nuclear weapons.
    Last edited by Tritagonist; 07-04-2013 at 11:26 AM.
    "He has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to
    the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free". ~
    Luke 4:18

  5. #25
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus coldvvvave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    Sometimes it's necessary.
    Hope it happens near you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    You are an enemy of gaming.

  6. #26
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    First thing first, NK has issued OFFICIAL DECLARATION OF WAR. It is no longer a war crime to bomb them hell out!
    North Korea and South Korea never declared peace, the Korean War is technically still going. Kim Jong-Un made a big show of ripping up the armistice like a big, strong, manly dictator while shuffling missiles around.

    As for the missile range - sure, you're in range. So is the northern tip of Australia. But analysts believe that their actual capability to reliably hit a target isn't particularly good. Besides that, what does the DPRK gain by attacking China? No, seriously, I don't understand why you think you're under threat from the DPRK. They wouldn't launch on China. They're unlikely to launch on the west!


    The most likely scenario is that they fire off their missiles on the east coast to celebrate 100 years of the Eternal President being a person, probably landing in the sea or maybe not even doing anything, before going back to being that crazy hermit kingdom that rants and raves about everyone being evil while simultaneously asking for more food. The toys will go back into the box because despite their insanity the ruling caste of the DPRK like their own power far too much to risk losing it in a war, which they will lose at least initially. This isn't the 1950s, the world has changed significantly since the fall of the Soviet bloc, the DPRK may have a massive number of troops but they're a conventional army going up against modern armies with much better equipment and much stronger economies. The DRPK might undertake insurgency following a loss, but a leader in exile doesn't get to sit behind a fancy desk and wave missiles around while holding big parades.

    They won't go to war. They're crazy, but not absolutely brain dead.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  7. #27
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    That's not why the United States & the United Kingdom invaded Iraq.
    I know that but I also know its probably the only good thing they did in Iraq, and helping the guys who toppled Libya. I'm very angry that there not helping Syria in the same way but international community and other such bollocks.

    We should not go to war with them, we should really try to make a revolution by the people but if it does come to war we should take down them once and for all.

    Besides that, what does the DPRK gain by attacking China?
    I've only seen China seem to be North Koreas only ally to be honest why would they give them food and aid if otherwise? The good thing about them screaming is that even China is backing away from them slowly.

  8. #28
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Westerners need to realize that we are under real threat. NK is currently deploying nuclear missiles with range over my home and workplace!!
    No they're not.

    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Yes I ask for war, but I have my justification. First thing first, NK has issued OFFICIAL DECLARATION OF WAR. It is no longer a war crime to bomb them hell out!
    Yes it would, you're not at war with North Korea.

    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Koreans (I mean ALL Koreans, be them from North or South) are greedy, arrogant and dangerously ambitious in a way you westerners would not understand.
    Just.. wow. I suppose I'd better start keeping an eye on my neighbour from now on. I mean she seems perfectly reasonable, but now that you've told me ALL Koreans are untrustworthy..

  9. #29
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    No they're not.



    Yes it would, you're not at war with North Korea.



    Just.. wow. I suppose I'd better start keeping an eye on my neighbour from now on. I mean she seems perfectly reasonable, but now that you've told me ALL Koreans are untrustworthy..
    Er no. Bombing someone isn't a war crime, it's an act of war.

    Also NK most definitely has missiles capable of hitting China.

  10. #30
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    Er no. Bombing someone isn't a war crime, it's an act of war.

    Also NK most definitely has missiles capable of hitting China.
    Bombing a country unprovoked and without UN sanction is a criminal act of war.

    Having missiles capable of hitting China is not the same as "currently deploying nuclear missiles with range over" China.

  11. #31
    Network Hub roryok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    I want to be at peace and even friendly with everyone, but there are just some people you cannot reason with. Koreans (I mean ALL Koreans, be them from North or South) are greedy, arrogant and dangerously ambitious in a way you westerners would not understand.
    That statement came out sounding really racist. It's hard to take anything else you say seriously after that.

  12. #32
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    Sometimes it's necessary.
    Then in that case I suppose you're volunteering to fight in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    want to be at peace and even friendly with everyone, but there are just some people you cannot reason with. Koreans (I mean ALL Koreans, be them from North or South) are greedy, arrogant and dangerously ambitious in a way you westerners would not understand.

    Of course I don't speak for other Chinese. As I know my government for one is working its best to cool things down. 21st century of Chamberlain appeasement.
    Or, y'know, you're a racist patriot who wraps himself in the flag and can see no wrong in his own country.

    Believe me, I know how it feels: We have a lot of those ourselves.
    Last edited by Nalano; 07-04-2013 at 07:41 PM.
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  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    Bombing a country unprovoked and without UN sanction is a criminal act of war.

    Having missiles capable of hitting China is not the same as "currently deploying nuclear missiles with range over" China.
    It's not a "war crime". It's not illegal to declare war. War crimes are things that happen during a war that go against the Geneva convention and other similar things, such as genocide, child soldiers, chemical/biological weapons, etc.

    NK does have plutonium warheads small enough to fit on a missile, why wouldn't they have them on missiles? I know the media wants you to believe that NK is just a joke and poses no serious threat, but this is far from reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Then in that case I suppose you're volunteering to fight in it.
    I wouldn't pass a physical or psychological exam, but if there was something I could do to help in an actual war (such as assembly line workers in WW2), I would.

    This is probably something we fundamentally disagree on, knowing you. Is war with NK necessary? This remains to be seen. Is it never necessary? No, sometimes it's necessary. One could argue that ultimately there shouldn't have been a war to begin with, but since the actions of every nation can't be controlled, it is sometimes inevitable. Should a nation not defend itself? Should there be no intervention in places where genocide is being carried out?

  14. #34
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    This is probably something we fundamentally disagree on, knowing you. Is war with NK necessary? This remains to be seen. Is it never necessary? No, sometimes it's necessary. One could argue that ultimately there shouldn't have been a war to begin with, but since the actions of every nation can't be controlled, it is sometimes inevitable. Should a nation not defend itself? Should there be no intervention in places where genocide is being carried out?
    I'm not sure I pass muster as a conscientious objector, but I suppose I'm closer than not. But North Korea has been contained for this long and there's no particular reason we - that is, China, Russia, and the United States, the three major powers in question - can't contain it for longer than that.

    China wants the government to continue largely because if it didn't, all the refugees would start entering China. Indeed, they're already trying to figure out how to stem the tide of all these illegal North Korean immigrants who ran to escape privations. They're not particularly concerned about South Korea being an "American puppet" for, as it stands, South Korea's biggest trading partner is... China (as is Taiwan's, consequently, and China and the United States are #1 and #2 on each other's trading partner list).

    All America has to do is give China enough face that discussions as to how we might contain these wacky dictators can proceed. For all we criticize Nixon and Kissinger for, securing a backroom dialogue with China - which has yet to be broken - has certainly worked wonders for world peace.
    Last edited by Nalano; 07-04-2013 at 08:45 PM.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  15. #35
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    It's not a "war crime". It's not illegal to declare war. War crimes are things that happen during a war that go against the Geneva convention and other similar things, such as genocide, child soldiers, chemical/biological weapons, etc.
    It's not about declaring war, it's about bombing people who haven't attacked you or your allies. International law does regulate when it's legal or not to attack a country and most states have ratified those international laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    NK does have plutonium warheads small enough to fit on a missile, why wouldn't they have them on missiles?
    Source? North Korea claims to have tested one miniaturised nuclear weapon. Experts seem to think they don't have the capability to build warheads that fit on missiles. Nobody knows, so why state it as fact? Even if they do, why on earth would they attack China? If the Chinese are worried about being attacked by the North Korean regime, then here's a thought: Perhaps they should start by ceasing to support the North Korean regime.

  16. #36
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    It's not a "war crime".
    Which is probably why Skalpadda didn't use those words! It is indeed not a 'war crime', but a 'crime against peace'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    It's not illegal to declare war.
    It kinda is when you're doing it aggressively. The United States no longer recognizes the International Criminal Court (at least not if it concerns Americans, it's perfectly happy to have Africans sent to The Hague), but the 120+ countries that are members of the ICC consider acts of aggression one of the worst crimes a state can commit.

    Now, I don't mind that the USA has objections to the ICC - there's plenty to choose from - but the worldwide consensus seems to be, on the basis of said ICC and UN views, that aggressively waging war is indeed a crime.

    Anyway, an interesting take on the situation by Fair.org, citing Foreign Policy in Focus: "Ostensibly a defensive exercise in preparation for an attack by the north, the joint U.S./South Korea war games have taken on a decidedly offensive characteristic since Kim Jong Il's death. What’s more, a South Korean military official discussing the exercise raised red flags by mentioning the possibility of responding to potential North Korean provocation with asymmetric retaliation, a direct violation of UN rules of engagement in warfare."

    It also has this interesting quote by B.R. Myers, a professor at Dongseo University in South Korea: "We need to keep in mind that North and South Korea are not so much trading outright threats as trading blustering vows of how they would retaliate if attacked. The North says, "If the U.S. or South Korea dare infringe on our territory, we will reduce their territory to ashes," and Seoul responds by saying it will retaliate by bombing Kim Il-sung statues. And so it goes. (...) I think the international press is distorting the reality somewhat by simply publishing the second half of all these conditional sentences."

    Last edited by Tritagonist; 07-04-2013 at 09:09 PM.
    "He has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to
    the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free". ~
    Luke 4:18

  17. #37
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    NK does have plutonium warheads small enough to fit on a missile, why wouldn't they have them on missiles? I know the media wants you to believe that NK is just a joke and poses no serious threat, but this is far from reality.
    There's some debate about this of course, but making an ICBM is no trivial task. So far they've been almost comically inept at delivering effective missile systems, and the launch of that satellite didn't inspire much confidence. Of course we need to take the threat seriously, which is what everybody does whenever the DPRK sings a song and marches in neat lines. At the same time though there's not much to suggest that they actually have the capacity to threaten anything except their immediate neighbours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tritagonist View Post
    Which is probably why Skalpadda didn't use those words! It is indeed not a 'war crime', but a 'crime against peace'.
    With all that said though, the only people who suffer punishment for war crimes are the losers punished in retribution by the victors. Trying to put laws on war is laughable, and only ever works if you're on the winning side. As you note the US basically do whatever they like and nobody's going to put them on trial for illegal acts of war.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    There's some debate about this of course, but making an ICBM is no trivial task. So far they've been almost comically inept at delivering effective missile systems, and the launch of that satellite didn't inspire much confidence. Of course we need to take the threat seriously, which is what everybody does whenever the DPRK sings a song and marches in neat lines. At the same time though there's not much to suggest that they actually have the capacity to threaten anything except their immediate neighbours.


    With all that said though, the only people who suffer punishment for war crimes are the losers punished in retribution by the victors. Trying to put laws on war is laughable, and only ever works if you're on the winning side. As you note the US basically do whatever they like and nobody's going to put them on trial for illegal acts of war.
    An ICBM is not required to hit China, SK, or even Japan. They have fully capable medium range missiles.

  19. #39
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    An ICBM is not required to hit China, SK, or even Japan. They have fully capable medium range missiles.
    Even with medium range missiles it's not a trivial task to get an accurate launch and strike. You're giving them an awful lot of credit. If I was in the ROK I'd be very nervous but elsewhere? Good luck, they'll need it.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  20. #40
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    Should be noted that even chemical weapon warheads are also ridiculously hard to mount on a ballistic missile. Unlike an artillery shell, a Scud or similar TBM descends so fast that the agents are more likely to end up as a toxic (if rather insignificant) puddle at the bottom of a crater rather than as a poisonous cloud engulfing a city block, which is why despite Israel's concerns that Saddam would put nerve gas warheads on his Scuds during Desert Storm, coalition planners didn't believe for a second his armed forces had that capability.

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